Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Joshua Fontany]

You should investigate Danielo's "NoteSelf" adaptation if TW which I belive 
syncs to a PouchDB server.

Also - TW defines the Title field as primary key. When title "changes" TW is 
actually storing a new tiddler under the new Title and deletes the old copy.

Best,
-Joshua F

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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[TonyM]

Walt,

Using a automatically issues ID is wise in these circumstances, however I 
have done work of fixed serial numbers for tiddler so Personal Message me 
if you want to discuss.

I am not in favor of using such a large serial number as created date/time, 
however the date can be transferred to an independant field, then tested to 
ensure its unique, simply incrementing milliseconds until it is unique. 
Then you hide this field from edit. The problems come about when dragging 
and dropping tiddlers from other wikis, but a test for uniqueness can 
occurs again, unless we were to include a wikiname in the serial numbers.

I expect a database solution may assume an empty.html with the stored 
tiddlers anything added or overwritten. There is a real question however 
with tiddlers delivered via the database that are needed as the wiki loads. 

You may not know couchDB but Noteself implementing a database model and 
would inform you, perhaps even give you code examples. Two notable features 
are tiddler versions and the use of a local couchDB when PouchDB not 
available and before connected. A Design path is to build first to a 
browser internal Database, then look at connecting to an external Database. 
this could allow one Tiddlywiki to switch databases, or one database share 
multiple wikis.

Regards
Tony

On Friday, 1 May 2020 05:03:19 UTC+10, ludwa6 wrote:
>
> If there's any doubt about using the "Created" field, then the 
> auto-assigned integer always works for PK (most RDBMs do it that way by 
> default, in fact). 
>
> Meanwhile, i am playing with tiddly server, trying to get Github Saver to 
> work, with no joy as of yet.  Is this supposed to work, or does it work 
> only for single-file instances, i wonder?
>
>
> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 6:08:24 PM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure the created field is never cleaned off. Like possibly during 
>> export/import procedures. Or when packed/unpacked from a plugin. 
>> Maybe use a separate id field just to be sure. 
>>
>> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 9:52:28 AM UTC-7, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> If I was doing that I would auto assign an integer primary key, but if 
>>> that's more work you could use the created timestamp. 
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:40 AM ludwa6 
>>>
 Arlen: storage in a RDBMS (requirement for this application i want to 
 develop[1]) requires a Primary Key that is both guaranteed unique AND 
 cannot be changed -but tiddler Title *can* be changed, so that is not a 
 good candidate, seems to me. The one element of this schema that appears 
 immutable to me is that "created" date/time stamp, which has 3 digits 
 beyond minutes (thousandths of a minute, perhaps?), so that is 
 fine-grained 
 enough to guarantee uniqueness, i guess. 

 [1] To explain: i need RDBMS storage for this particular application 
 because i need to correlate tiddlers with records in other tables of the 
 database that they are meant to document, or otherwise extend. This RDBMS 
 lies at the heart of a gateway that facilitates data I/O with a set remote 
 nodes for sensing & control of farm operations -initially a 
 climate-controlled greenhouse.  The data flowing between nodes in this 
 environment is structured as a rule, such that humans cannot mess with it. 
 Yet it is precisely those "messy" human inputs -e.g. observations, photos, 
 links, questions, etc.- that i aim to capture thru TiddlyWiki.  The real 
 power of this application will lie in its ability to corrrelate machine 
 data with user-generated data... And for that, i need both to be stored in 
 RDBMS (just in case you were wondering why :-)


 On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:23:00 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> Those last lines are a mystery to me. I've never seen them before. 
> I'll check make sure I'm not missing anything. 
>
> The tiddler title is the primary key in Tiddly wiki. I don't really 
> think you would need to store it anywhere else though.
>
> Everything is in flux right now, but hopefully we'll have it mailed 
> down soon and then I'll be able to better recommend how to use a database 
> with this. But it certainly isn't required. 
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 06:42 ludwa6  wrote:
>
>> Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's 
>> declaration of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my 
>> Pi 
>> server... But in fact i'm still confused about this.  
>>
>> The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki 
>> single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked 
>> me 
>> to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see 
>> it 
>> in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with 
>> $_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

AFAIK, the github saver is for single-file TW's. 

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:03:19 PM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>
> If there's any doubt about using the "Created" field, then the 
> auto-assigned integer always works for PK (most RDBMs do it that way by 
> default, in fact). 
>
> Meanwhile, i am playing with tiddly server, trying to get Github Saver to 
> work, with no joy as of yet.  Is this supposed to work, or does it work 
> only for single-file instances, i wonder?
>
>
> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 6:08:24 PM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> I'm not sure the created field is never cleaned off. Like possibly during 
>> export/import procedures. Or when packed/unpacked from a plugin. 
>> Maybe use a separate id field just to be sure. 
>>
>> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 9:52:28 AM UTC-7, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> If I was doing that I would auto assign an integer primary key, but if 
>>> that's more work you could use the created timestamp. 
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:40 AM ludwa6 
>>>
 Arlen: storage in a RDBMS (requirement for this application i want to 
 develop[1]) requires a Primary Key that is both guaranteed unique AND 
 cannot be changed -but tiddler Title *can* be changed, so that is not a 
 good candidate, seems to me. The one element of this schema that appears 
 immutable to me is that "created" date/time stamp, which has 3 digits 
 beyond minutes (thousandths of a minute, perhaps?), so that is 
 fine-grained 
 enough to guarantee uniqueness, i guess. 

 [1] To explain: i need RDBMS storage for this particular application 
 because i need to correlate tiddlers with records in other tables of the 
 database that they are meant to document, or otherwise extend. This RDBMS 
 lies at the heart of a gateway that facilitates data I/O with a set remote 
 nodes for sensing & control of farm operations -initially a 
 climate-controlled greenhouse.  The data flowing between nodes in this 
 environment is structured as a rule, such that humans cannot mess with it. 
 Yet it is precisely those "messy" human inputs -e.g. observations, photos, 
 links, questions, etc.- that i aim to capture thru TiddlyWiki.  The real 
 power of this application will lie in its ability to corrrelate machine 
 data with user-generated data... And for that, i need both to be stored in 
 RDBMS (just in case you were wondering why :-)


 On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:23:00 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> Those last lines are a mystery to me. I've never seen them before. 
> I'll check make sure I'm not missing anything. 
>
> The tiddler title is the primary key in Tiddly wiki. I don't really 
> think you would need to store it anywhere else though.
>
> Everything is in flux right now, but hopefully we'll have it mailed 
> down soon and then I'll be able to better recommend how to use a database 
> with this. But it certainly isn't required. 
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 06:42 ludwa6  wrote:
>
>> Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's 
>> declaration of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my 
>> Pi 
>> server... But in fact i'm still confused about this.  
>>
>> The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki 
>> single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked 
>> me 
>> to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see 
>> it 
>> in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with 
>> $_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd 
>> file in the same directory... So can i safely presume i've got tiddly 
>> server working as it should?
>>
>> Now looking at the schema of these files, it seems pretty simple, 
>> i.e.: 
>>
>>- created: (date/time stamp in mmddhhmm format, followed by a 
>>3-digit numeric)
>>- modified: (same format as above)
>>- tags: (if any, a horizontal list)
>>- title: (as declared)
>>- type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
>>- (single line space, followed by...
>>- (full text of tiddler, followed by...
>>- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
>>- >- [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL
>>
>> That last line is most mysterious to me, as i don't know what those 
>> codes refer to, nor why there's so many spaces preceding the last 2 
>> strings. 
>>
>> Best candidate for Primary Key here, as far as i can see, would be 
>> the first attribute -the "created" date/time stamp- but i don't know how 
>> to 
>> turn these files into rows in the SQLite database where i want to store 
>> the 
>> data. From what Tony said, i gather it would involve building a sync 
>> module 
>> of some sort, but 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

If there's any doubt about using the "Created" field, then the 
auto-assigned integer always works for PK (most RDBMs do it that way by 
default, in fact). 

Meanwhile, i am playing with tiddly server, trying to get Github Saver to 
work, with no joy as of yet.  Is this supposed to work, or does it work 
only for single-file instances, i wonder?


On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 6:08:24 PM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
> I'm not sure the created field is never cleaned off. Like possibly during 
> export/import procedures. Or when packed/unpacked from a plugin. 
> Maybe use a separate id field just to be sure. 
>
> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 9:52:28 AM UTC-7, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> If I was doing that I would auto assign an integer primary key, but if 
>> that's more work you could use the created timestamp. 
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:40 AM ludwa6 
>>
>>> Arlen: storage in a RDBMS (requirement for this application i want to 
>>> develop[1]) requires a Primary Key that is both guaranteed unique AND 
>>> cannot be changed -but tiddler Title *can* be changed, so that is not a 
>>> good candidate, seems to me. The one element of this schema that appears 
>>> immutable to me is that "created" date/time stamp, which has 3 digits 
>>> beyond minutes (thousandths of a minute, perhaps?), so that is fine-grained 
>>> enough to guarantee uniqueness, i guess. 
>>>
>>> [1] To explain: i need RDBMS storage for this particular application 
>>> because i need to correlate tiddlers with records in other tables of the 
>>> database that they are meant to document, or otherwise extend. This RDBMS 
>>> lies at the heart of a gateway that facilitates data I/O with a set remote 
>>> nodes for sensing & control of farm operations -initially a 
>>> climate-controlled greenhouse.  The data flowing between nodes in this 
>>> environment is structured as a rule, such that humans cannot mess with it. 
>>> Yet it is precisely those "messy" human inputs -e.g. observations, photos, 
>>> links, questions, etc.- that i aim to capture thru TiddlyWiki.  The real 
>>> power of this application will lie in its ability to corrrelate machine 
>>> data with user-generated data... And for that, i need both to be stored in 
>>> RDBMS (just in case you were wondering why :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:23:00 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:

 Those last lines are a mystery to me. I've never seen them before. I'll 
 check make sure I'm not missing anything. 

 The tiddler title is the primary key in Tiddly wiki. I don't really 
 think you would need to store it anywhere else though.

 Everything is in flux right now, but hopefully we'll have it mailed 
 down soon and then I'll be able to better recommend how to use a database 
 with this. But it certainly isn't required. 

 On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 06:42 ludwa6  wrote:

> Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's 
> declaration of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my 
> Pi 
> server... But in fact i'm still confused about this.  
>
> The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki 
> single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked 
> me 
> to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see 
> it 
> in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with 
> $_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd 
> file in the same directory... So can i safely presume i've got tiddly 
> server working as it should?
>
> Now looking at the schema of these files, it seems pretty simple, 
> i.e.: 
>
>- created: (date/time stamp in mmddhhmm format, followed by a 
>3-digit numeric)
>- modified: (same format as above)
>- tags: (if any, a horizontal list)
>- title: (as declared)
>- type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
>- (single line space, followed by...
>- (full text of tiddler, followed by...
>- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
>- - [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL
>
> That last line is most mysterious to me, as i don't know what those 
> codes refer to, nor why there's so many spaces preceding the last 2 
> strings. 
>
> Best candidate for Primary Key here, as far as i can see, would be the 
> first attribute -the "created" date/time stamp- but i don't know how to 
> turn these files into rows in the SQLite database where i want to store 
> the 
> data. From what Tony said, i gather it would involve building a sync 
> module 
> of some sort, but i have no idea how that might be done.  Any prior art, 
> or 
> ideas about this?
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 7:00:25 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, what I said was for tiddly 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

I'm not sure the created field is never cleaned off. Like possibly during 
export/import procedures. Or when packed/unpacked from a plugin. 
Maybe use a separate id field just to be sure. 

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 9:52:28 AM UTC-7, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> If I was doing that I would auto assign an integer primary key, but if 
> that's more work you could use the created timestamp. 
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:40 AM ludwa6 
>
>> Arlen: storage in a RDBMS (requirement for this application i want to 
>> develop[1]) requires a Primary Key that is both guaranteed unique AND 
>> cannot be changed -but tiddler Title *can* be changed, so that is not a 
>> good candidate, seems to me. The one element of this schema that appears 
>> immutable to me is that "created" date/time stamp, which has 3 digits 
>> beyond minutes (thousandths of a minute, perhaps?), so that is fine-grained 
>> enough to guarantee uniqueness, i guess. 
>>
>> [1] To explain: i need RDBMS storage for this particular application 
>> because i need to correlate tiddlers with records in other tables of the 
>> database that they are meant to document, or otherwise extend. This RDBMS 
>> lies at the heart of a gateway that facilitates data I/O with a set remote 
>> nodes for sensing & control of farm operations -initially a 
>> climate-controlled greenhouse.  The data flowing between nodes in this 
>> environment is structured as a rule, such that humans cannot mess with it. 
>> Yet it is precisely those "messy" human inputs -e.g. observations, photos, 
>> links, questions, etc.- that i aim to capture thru TiddlyWiki.  The real 
>> power of this application will lie in its ability to corrrelate machine 
>> data with user-generated data... And for that, i need both to be stored in 
>> RDBMS (just in case you were wondering why :-)
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:23:00 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> Those last lines are a mystery to me. I've never seen them before. I'll 
>>> check make sure I'm not missing anything. 
>>>
>>> The tiddler title is the primary key in Tiddly wiki. I don't really 
>>> think you would need to store it anywhere else though.
>>>
>>> Everything is in flux right now, but hopefully we'll have it mailed down 
>>> soon and then I'll be able to better recommend how to use a database with 
>>> this. But it certainly isn't required. 
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 06:42 ludwa6  wrote:
>>>
 Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's 
 declaration of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my 
 Pi 
 server... But in fact i'm still confused about this.  

 The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki 
 single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked 
 me 
 to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see it 
 in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with 
 $_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd 
 file in the same directory... So can i safely presume i've got tiddly 
 server working as it should?

 Now looking at the schema of these files, it seems pretty simple, i.e.: 

- created: (date/time stamp in mmddhhmm format, followed by a 
3-digit numeric)
- modified: (same format as above)
- tags: (if any, a horizontal list)
- title: (as declared)
- type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
- (single line space, followed by...
- (full text of tiddler, followed by...
- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
- >>>- [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL

 That last line is most mysterious to me, as i don't know what those 
 codes refer to, nor why there's so many spaces preceding the last 2 
 strings. 

 Best candidate for Primary Key here, as far as i can see, would be the 
 first attribute -the "created" date/time stamp- but i don't know how to 
 turn these files into rows in the SQLite database where i want to store 
 the 
 data. From what Tony said, i gather it would involve building a sync 
 module 
 of some sort, but i have no idea how that might be done.  Any prior art, 
 or 
 ideas about this?



 On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 7:00:25 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> Sorry, what I said was for tiddly server. What mark said is for tiddly 
> wiki.
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 13:56 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The listen command can take a port number. Like
>>
>> --listen port=8090
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks! 
>>> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi 
>>> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Arlen Beiler]

If I was doing that I would auto assign an integer primary key, but if
that's more work you could use the created timestamp.

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 8:40 AM ludwa6  wrote:

> Arlen: storage in a RDBMS (requirement for this application i want to
> develop[1]) requires a Primary Key that is both guaranteed unique AND
> cannot be changed -but tiddler Title *can* be changed, so that is not a
> good candidate, seems to me. The one element of this schema that appears
> immutable to me is that "created" date/time stamp, which has 3 digits
> beyond minutes (thousandths of a minute, perhaps?), so that is fine-grained
> enough to guarantee uniqueness, i guess.
>
> [1] To explain: i need RDBMS storage for this particular application
> because i need to correlate tiddlers with records in other tables of the
> database that they are meant to document, or otherwise extend. This RDBMS
> lies at the heart of a gateway that facilitates data I/O with a set remote
> nodes for sensing & control of farm operations -initially a
> climate-controlled greenhouse.  The data flowing between nodes in this
> environment is structured as a rule, such that humans cannot mess with it.
> Yet it is precisely those "messy" human inputs -e.g. observations, photos,
> links, questions, etc.- that i aim to capture thru TiddlyWiki.  The real
> power of this application will lie in its ability to corrrelate machine
> data with user-generated data... And for that, i need both to be stored in
> RDBMS (just in case you were wondering why :-)
>
>
> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:23:00 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> Those last lines are a mystery to me. I've never seen them before. I'll
>> check make sure I'm not missing anything.
>>
>> The tiddler title is the primary key in Tiddly wiki. I don't really think
>> you would need to store it anywhere else though.
>>
>> Everything is in flux right now, but hopefully we'll have it mailed down
>> soon and then I'll be able to better recommend how to use a database with
>> this. But it certainly isn't required.
>>
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 06:42 ludwa6  wrote:
>>
>>> Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's
>>> declaration of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my Pi
>>> server... But in fact i'm still confused about this.
>>>
>>> The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki
>>> single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked me
>>> to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see it
>>> in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with
>>> $_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd
>>> file in the same directory... So can i safely presume i've got tiddly
>>> server working as it should?
>>>
>>> Now looking at the schema of these files, it seems pretty simple, i.e.:
>>>
>>>- created: (date/time stamp in mmddhhmm format, followed by a
>>>3-digit numeric)
>>>- modified: (same format as above)
>>>- tags: (if any, a horizontal list)
>>>- title: (as declared)
>>>- type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
>>>- (single line space, followed by...
>>>- (full text of tiddler, followed by...
>>>- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
>>>- >>- [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL
>>>
>>> That last line is most mysterious to me, as i don't know what those
>>> codes refer to, nor why there's so many spaces preceding the last 2
>>> strings.
>>>
>>> Best candidate for Primary Key here, as far as i can see, would be the
>>> first attribute -the "created" date/time stamp- but i don't know how to
>>> turn these files into rows in the SQLite database where i want to store the
>>> data. From what Tony said, i gather it would involve building a sync module
>>> of some sort, but i have no idea how that might be done.  Any prior art, or
>>> ideas about this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 7:00:25 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:

 Sorry, what I said was for tiddly server. What mark said is for tiddly
 wiki.

 On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 13:56 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
 tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
> The listen command can take a port number. Like
>
> --listen port=8090
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>
>> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks!
>> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi
>> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port
>> :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the
>> moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that
>> developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...
>>
>> But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but
>> terminal tells me:
>>
>> -bash: npm: command not found
>> Suppose i could use a different 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

Heh -looks like you are right, Mark: i was viewing text of tiddler in the 
terminal, but when i opened it in a text editor , it was simply this:

created: 20200430094059869
> modified: 20200430094129604
> tags: test
> title: FirstPost
> type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
> What hath God wrought?


- and nothing more.  All that afterbirth in my previous msg in this thread 
was some irrelevant terminal screed, i guess But if this is all there 
is to a tiddler, it should be simple to store in SQLite, i imagine, for one 
who knows how to write a "Sync module" (wish i knew how!).  /w



On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 2:23:57 PM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
>
>
> On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 3:42:34 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>
>>
>>- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
>>- >- [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL
>>
>>
>>
> Are you sure these aren't visual artefacts of  the editor you're using? 
> Some old editors display a tilde at the start of each blank line, and that 
> line on the bottom looks like an info display. Maybe you could post one of 
> the new tiddlers?
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 3:42:34 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>
>
>- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
>- - [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL
>
>
>
Are you sure these aren't visual artefacts of  the editor you're using? 
Some old editors display a tilde at the start of each blank line, and that 
line on the bottom looks like an info display. Maybe you could post one of 
the new tiddlers?


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https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/6afcfbbc-d3da-4aba-a05c-a8d6e419%40googlegroups.com.

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

Arlen: storage in a RDBMS (requirement for this application i want to 
develop[1]) requires a Primary Key that is both guaranteed unique AND 
cannot be changed -but tiddler Title *can* be changed, so that is not a 
good candidate, seems to me. The one element of this schema that appears 
immutable to me is that "created" date/time stamp, which has 3 digits 
beyond minutes (thousandths of a minute, perhaps?), so that is fine-grained 
enough to guarantee uniqueness, i guess. 

[1] To explain: i need RDBMS storage for this particular application 
because i need to correlate tiddlers with records in other tables of the 
database that they are meant to document, or otherwise extend. This RDBMS 
lies at the heart of a gateway that facilitates data I/O with a set remote 
nodes for sensing & control of farm operations -initially a 
climate-controlled greenhouse.  The data flowing between nodes in this 
environment is structured as a rule, such that humans cannot mess with it. 
Yet it is precisely those "messy" human inputs -e.g. observations, photos, 
links, questions, etc.- that i aim to capture thru TiddlyWiki.  The real 
power of this application will lie in its ability to corrrelate machine 
data with user-generated data... And for that, i need both to be stored in 
RDBMS (just in case you were wondering why :-)


On Thursday, April 30, 2020 at 12:23:00 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> Those last lines are a mystery to me. I've never seen them before. I'll 
> check make sure I'm not missing anything. 
>
> The tiddler title is the primary key in Tiddly wiki. I don't really think 
> you would need to store it anywhere else though.
>
> Everything is in flux right now, but hopefully we'll have it mailed down 
> soon and then I'll be able to better recommend how to use a database with 
> this. But it certainly isn't required. 
>
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 06:42 ludwa6 > 
> wrote:
>
>> Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's declaration 
>> of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my Pi server... 
>> But in fact i'm still confused about this.  
>>
>> The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki 
>> single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked me 
>> to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see it 
>> in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with 
>> $_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd 
>> file in the same directory... So can i safely presume i've got tiddly 
>> server working as it should?
>>
>> Now looking at the schema of these files, it seems pretty simple, i.e.: 
>>
>>- created: (date/time stamp in mmddhhmm format, followed by a 
>>3-digit numeric)
>>- modified: (same format as above)
>>- tags: (if any, a horizontal list)
>>- title: (as declared)
>>- type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
>>- (single line space, followed by...
>>- (full text of tiddler, followed by...
>>- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
>>- >- [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL
>>
>> That last line is most mysterious to me, as i don't know what those codes 
>> refer to, nor why there's so many spaces preceding the last 2 strings. 
>>
>> Best candidate for Primary Key here, as far as i can see, would be the 
>> first attribute -the "created" date/time stamp- but i don't know how to 
>> turn these files into rows in the SQLite database where i want to store the 
>> data. From what Tony said, i gather it would involve building a sync module 
>> of some sort, but i have no idea how that might be done.  Any prior art, or 
>> ideas about this?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 7:00:25 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> Sorry, what I said was for tiddly server. What mark said is for tiddly 
>>> wiki.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 13:56 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>

 The listen command can take a port number. Like

 --listen port=8090


 On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>
> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks! 
> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi 
> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port 
> :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the 
> moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that 
> developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...
>
> But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but 
> terminal tells me:
>
> -bash: npm: command not found
> Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i 
> am a complete unix n00b  =8-(
>
> Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes 
> would of course be appreciated!
>
> /walt
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Arlen Beiler]

Yes, if they're properly showing up in the folder then everything is
working. Data folders are the second officially supported format in
tiddlywiki, after single file wikis. So feel free to just use the data
folder, in my opinion you don't need to store it anywhere else.

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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Arlen Beiler]

Those last lines are a mystery to me. I've never seen them before. I'll
check make sure I'm not missing anything.

The tiddler title is the primary key in Tiddly wiki. I don't really think
you would need to store it anywhere else though.

Everything is in flux right now, but hopefully we'll have it mailed down
soon and then I'll be able to better recommend how to use a database with
this. But it certainly isn't required.

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020, 06:42 ludwa6  wrote:

> Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's declaration
> of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my Pi server...
> But in fact i'm still confused about this.
>
> The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki
> single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked me
> to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see it
> in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with
> $_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd
> file in the same directory... So can i safely presume i've got tiddly
> server working as it should?
>
> Now looking at the schema of these files, it seems pretty simple, i.e.:
>
>- created: (date/time stamp in mmddhhmm format, followed by a
>3-digit numeric)
>- modified: (same format as above)
>- tags: (if any, a horizontal list)
>- title: (as declared)
>- type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
>- (single line space, followed by...
>- (full text of tiddler, followed by...
>- (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
>- - [noeol] 7L, 132C  7,23  ALL
>
> That last line is most mysterious to me, as i don't know what those codes
> refer to, nor why there's so many spaces preceding the last 2 strings.
>
> Best candidate for Primary Key here, as far as i can see, would be the
> first attribute -the "created" date/time stamp- but i don't know how to
> turn these files into rows in the SQLite database where i want to store the
> data. From what Tony said, i gather it would involve building a sync module
> of some sort, but i have no idea how that might be done.  Any prior art, or
> ideas about this?
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 7:00:25 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, what I said was for tiddly server. What mark said is for tiddly
>> wiki.
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 13:56 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
>> tiddl...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The listen command can take a port number. Like
>>>
>>> --listen port=8090
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:

 Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks!
 So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi
 gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port
 :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the
 moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that
 developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...

 But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but
 terminal tells me:

 -bash: npm: command not found
 Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i
 am a complete unix n00b  =8-(

 Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes
 would of course be appreciated!

 /walt


 On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:06:52 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be
> accounted for.
>
> What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single
> file wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a
> custom format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based
> storage solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one
> mentioned this yet.
>
> To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install
> tiddlywiki -g
>
> Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder
> --init server
>
> Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen
>
> Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring.
>
> TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same
> port.
>
> Hope that helps,
> Arlen
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6  wrote:
>
>> Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this
>> thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this 
>> community i
>> have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple 
>> approach
>> suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is 
>> serving
>> me well enough for now.
>>
>> Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also
>> bothered by the growing sense that what i 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

Arlen: Putting your earlier instructions together with Mark's declaration 
of listener port, i *think* i've got he server running on my Pi server... 
But in fact i'm still confused about this.  

The UI looks & seems to be performing pretty much like TiddlyWiki 
single-file version, except that default "Getting Started" tiddler asked me 
to make & save one, & confirm that it worked... So i did, and now i see it 
in the file system, inside 'MyNewWikiFolder/tiddlers/ , along with 
$_StoryList.tid .  I then created a 2nd tiddler, which appeared as a 2nd 
file in the same directory... So can i safely presume i've got tiddly 
server working as it should?

Now looking at the schema of these files, it seems pretty simple, i.e.: 

   - created: (date/time stamp in mmddhhmm format, followed by a 
   3-digit numeric)
   - modified: (same format as above)
   - tags: (if any, a horizontal list)
   - title: (as declared)
   - type: text/vnd.tiddlywiki
   - (single line space, followed by...
   - (full text of tiddler, followed by...
   - (some 16 lines, blank except for '~' as initial character...
   - 
> Sorry, what I said was for tiddly server. What mark said is for tiddly 
> wiki.
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 13:56 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
> tiddl...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>>
>> The listen command can take a port number. Like
>>
>> --listen port=8090
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>>
>>> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks! 
>>> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi 
>>> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port 
>>> :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the 
>>> moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that 
>>> developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...
>>>
>>> But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but terminal 
>>> tells me:
>>>
>>> -bash: npm: command not found
>>> Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i 
>>> am a complete unix n00b  =8-(
>>>
>>> Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes 
>>> would of course be appreciated!
>>>
>>> /walt
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:06:52 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:

 I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be 
 accounted for. 

 What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single 
 file wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a 
 custom format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based 
 storage solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one 
 mentioned this yet. 

 To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install 
 tiddlywiki -g

 Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder 
 --init server

 Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen

 Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring. 

 TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same 
 port. 

 Hope that helps, 
 Arlen

 On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6  wrote:

> Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this 
> thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community 
> i 
> have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple 
> approach 
> suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is 
> serving 
> me well enough for now. 
>
> Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also 
> bothered by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of 
> this beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that 
> local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the 
> full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with 
> integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to 
> the 
> cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that 
> seminal Local-First paper 
> : Fast, Multi-Device, 
> Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.  Combining this 
> with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface builder for the 
> rest 
> of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup files i've got to 
> keep 
> cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full transactional history, so no 
> need of any backups but that one file, replicated to cloud), and that in 
> broad-strokes would be the shape of my dream machine. 
>
> So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a 
> TiddlyWiki?  If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me 
> to 
> prior art on which i might be able to build 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

YES!  that worked, got 'er working on my R-Pi server now.  Thanks Mark!
/w

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 6:56:45 PM UTC+1, Mark S. wrote:
>
>
> The listen command can take a port number. Like
>
> --listen port=8090
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>
>> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks! 
>> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi 
>> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port 
>> :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the 
>> moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that 
>> developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...
>>
>> But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but terminal 
>> tells me:
>>
>> -bash: npm: command not found
>> Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i am 
>> a complete unix n00b  =8-(
>>
>> Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes 
>> would of course be appreciated!
>>
>> /walt
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:06:52 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be 
>>> accounted for. 
>>>
>>> What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single file 
>>> wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a custom 
>>> format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based storage 
>>> solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one mentioned this 
>>> yet. 
>>>
>>> To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install 
>>> tiddlywiki -g
>>>
>>> Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder 
>>> --init server
>>>
>>> Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen
>>>
>>> Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring. 
>>>
>>> TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same 
>>> port. 
>>>
>>> Hope that helps, 
>>> Arlen
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6  wrote:
>>>
 Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this 
 thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community 
 i 
 have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple approach 
 suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is serving 
 me well enough for now. 

 Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also 
 bothered by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of 
 this beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that 
 local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the 
 full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with 
 integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to the 
 cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that 
 seminal Local-First paper 
 : Fast, Multi-Device, 
 Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.  Combining this 
 with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface builder for the rest 
 of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup files i've got to 
 keep 
 cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full transactional history, so no 
 need of any backups but that one file, replicated to cloud), and that in 
 broad-strokes would be the shape of my dream machine. 

 So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a 
 TiddlyWiki?  If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me 
 to 
 prior art on which i might be able to build such a solution?  Though i am 
 no programmer, i am reasonably comfortable with SQL as a data manipulation 
 language, if someone can just show me how to get the TW data in there!

 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
 an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
 To view this discussion on the web visit 
 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/856ad777-dc63-4491-bd74-c0391c4bf413%40googlegroups.com
  
 
 .

>>>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Arlen Beiler]

Sorry, what I said was for tiddly server. What mark said is for tiddly wiki.

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 13:56 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
> The listen command can take a port number. Like
>
> --listen port=8090
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>
>> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks!
>> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi
>> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port
>> :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the
>> moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that
>> developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...
>>
>> But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but terminal
>> tells me:
>>
>> -bash: npm: command not found
>> Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i am
>> a complete unix n00b  =8-(
>>
>> Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes
>> would of course be appreciated!
>>
>> /walt
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:06:52 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>>
>>> I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be
>>> accounted for.
>>>
>>> What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single file
>>> wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a custom
>>> format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based storage
>>> solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one mentioned this
>>> yet.
>>>
>>> To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install
>>> tiddlywiki -g
>>>
>>> Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder
>>> --init server
>>>
>>> Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen
>>>
>>> Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring.
>>>
>>> TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same
>>> port.
>>>
>>> Hope that helps,
>>> Arlen
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6  wrote:
>>>
 Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this
 thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community i
 have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple approach
 suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is serving
 me well enough for now.

 Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also
 bothered by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of
 this beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that
 local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the
 full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with
 integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to the
 cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that
 seminal Local-First paper
 : Fast, Multi-Device,
 Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.  Combining this
 with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface builder for the rest
 of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup files i've got to keep
 cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full transactional history, so no
 need of any backups but that one file, replicated to cloud), and that in
 broad-strokes would be the shape of my dream machine.

 So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a
 TiddlyWiki?  If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me to
 prior art on which i might be able to build such a solution?  Though i am
 no programmer, i am reasonably comfortable with SQL as a data manipulation
 language, if someone can just show me how to get the TW data in there!

 --
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
 an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
 To view this discussion on the web visit
 https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/856ad777-dc63-4491-bd74-c0391c4bf413%40googlegroups.com
 
 .

>>> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/9571530e-806f-4a61-ae2f-ef1498d49f7b%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

-- 
You received this message because you are 

Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Arlen Beiler]

I'm not at my computer right now, but you can specify the port in the
config file.

{ "bindInfo":{port:8090}}

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020, 12:37 ludwa6  wrote:

> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks!
> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi
> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port
> :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the
> moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that
> developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...
>
> But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but terminal
> tells me:
>
> -bash: npm: command not found
> Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i am
> a complete unix n00b  =8-(
>
> Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes would
> of course be appreciated!
>
> /walt
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:06:52 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be
>> accounted for.
>>
>> What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single file
>> wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a custom
>> format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based storage
>> solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one mentioned this
>> yet.
>>
>> To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install
>> tiddlywiki -g
>>
>> Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder
>> --init server
>>
>> Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen
>>
>> Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring.
>>
>> TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same
>> port.
>>
>> Hope that helps,
>> Arlen
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6  wrote:
>>
>>> Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this
>>> thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community i
>>> have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple approach
>>> suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is serving
>>> me well enough for now.
>>>
>>> Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also
>>> bothered by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of
>>> this beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that
>>> local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the
>>> full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with
>>> integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to the
>>> cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that
>>> seminal Local-First paper
>>> : Fast, Multi-Device,
>>> Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.  Combining this
>>> with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface builder for the rest
>>> of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup files i've got to keep
>>> cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full transactional history, so no
>>> need of any backups but that one file, replicated to cloud), and that in
>>> broad-strokes would be the shape of my dream machine.
>>>
>>> So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a
>>> TiddlyWiki?  If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me to
>>> prior art on which i might be able to build such a solution?  Though i am
>>> no programmer, i am reasonably comfortable with SQL as a data manipulation
>>> language, if someone can just show me how to get the TW data in there!
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/856ad777-dc63-4491-bd74-c0391c4bf413%40googlegroups.com
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> --
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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

The listen command can take a port number. Like

--listen port=8090


On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 9:37:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>
> Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks! 
> So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi 
> gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port 
> :8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the 
> moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that 
> developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...
>
> But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but terminal 
> tells me:
>
> -bash: npm: command not found
> Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i am 
> a complete unix n00b  =8-(
>
> Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes would 
> of course be appreciated!
>
> /walt
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:06:52 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be 
>> accounted for. 
>>
>> What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single file 
>> wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a custom 
>> format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based storage 
>> solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one mentioned this 
>> yet. 
>>
>> To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install 
>> tiddlywiki -g
>>
>> Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder 
>> --init server
>>
>> Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen
>>
>> Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring. 
>>
>> TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same 
>> port. 
>>
>> Hope that helps, 
>> Arlen
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6  wrote:
>>
>>> Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this 
>>> thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community i 
>>> have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple approach 
>>> suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is serving 
>>> me well enough for now. 
>>>
>>> Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also 
>>> bothered by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of 
>>> this beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that 
>>> local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the 
>>> full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with 
>>> integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to the 
>>> cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that 
>>> seminal Local-First paper 
>>> : Fast, Multi-Device, 
>>> Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.  Combining this 
>>> with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface builder for the rest 
>>> of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup files i've got to keep 
>>> cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full transactional history, so no 
>>> need of any backups but that one file, replicated to cloud), and that in 
>>> broad-strokes would be the shape of my dream machine. 
>>>
>>> So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a 
>>> TiddlyWiki?  If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me to 
>>> prior art on which i might be able to build such a solution?  Though i am 
>>> no programmer, i am reasonably comfortable with SQL as a data manipulation 
>>> language, if someone can just show me how to get the TW data in there!
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/856ad777-dc63-4491-bd74-c0391c4bf413%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

Hey Arlen: Great to hear, thanks! 
So i ran those commands, installed TiddlyServer on my Raspberry Pi 
gateway... But hit a little snag setting up the listener, in that port 
:8080 is owned by another application server.  Can't change that for the 
moment, as it's a service i can't really mess with.  Could talk to that 
developer about changing the port he's using, i suppose...

But just to see this working, i tried to install on my Mac, but terminal 
tells me:

-bash: npm: command not found
Suppose i could use a different package manager, if i knew how (yes, i am a 
complete unix n00b  =8-(

Will try to bone up on the requisite skills, but any more crib notes would 
of course be appreciated!

/walt


On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 3:06:52 PM UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be 
> accounted for. 
>
> What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single file 
> wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a custom 
> format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based storage 
> solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one mentioned this 
> yet. 
>
> To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install 
> tiddlywiki -g
>
> Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder 
> --init server
>
> Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen
>
> Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring. 
>
> TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same port. 
>
> Hope that helps, 
> Arlen
>
> On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6 > 
> wrote:
>
>> Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this 
>> thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community i 
>> have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple approach 
>> suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is serving 
>> me well enough for now. 
>>
>> Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also 
>> bothered by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of 
>> this beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that 
>> local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the 
>> full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with 
>> integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to the 
>> cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that seminal 
>> Local-First paper : Fast, 
>> Multi-Device, Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.  
>> Combining this with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface 
>> builder for the rest of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup 
>> files i've got to keep cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full 
>> transactional history, so no need of any backups but that one file, 
>> replicated to cloud), and that in broad-strokes would be the shape of my 
>> dream machine. 
>>
>> So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a 
>> TiddlyWiki?  If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me to 
>> prior art on which i might be able to build such a solution?  Though i am 
>> no programmer, i am reasonably comfortable with SQL as a data manipulation 
>> language, if someone can just show me how to get the TW data in there!
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "TiddlyWiki" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to tiddl...@googlegroups.com .
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/856ad777-dc63-4491-bd74-c0391c4bf413%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

Hey Tony: Thanks for the quick & supportive response.  
Though i don't know anything about pouch & couchdb, nor cpanel SQL, i do 
know a bit about WordPress -am managing a few such sites myself- and tho 
the idea of WP integration appeals to me personally, this solution i'm 
trying to put together is a special-purpose thing (a user-friendly 
interface & documentation stack to a remote sensing & control gateway) 
that's to run on a Raspberry Pi, which has SQLite installed as a necessary 
part of the stack.  
I don't see WP as being a good fit for this application, and i'm quite fond 
of SQLite, but am open to other database technologies at this point, if 
they will fit. 
Thanks for the pointers about Saver or Sync modules; gotta get me up to 
speed on these things!
/walt


On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 2:01:24 PM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:
>
> Some quick points about sql.
>
> The closest example I know is noteself which use pouch and couchdb. I 
> would be keen to have wiki tiddlers use my WordPress db or cpanel sql 
> allowing integrations.
>
> I will help you go this direction.
>
> I think the term is build a saver or sync module. Tw-reciever does this 
> for php, bob to the node server, noteself to couchdb etc... Regular wikis 
> can use the default download saver or timimi and other savers.
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Arlen Beiler]

I believe Tony is referring to the fact that a browser session is quickly
lost, including the unsaved data, once the user switches to a different app
on mobile devices. The only workaround that I know of would be to store
unsaved changes in local storage until they get synced. Which is basically
what noteself did.

So many different pieces of the puzzle. I often wish I could put them
together.

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 9:03 AM Jed Carty  wrote:

> ludwa6,
>
> There have been a few database-backends made for tiddlywiki, I don't
> remember if anyone made a sqlite one or not, but it wouldn't be too hard
> and there are some examples around for it. I considered it for bob but I
> don't like sqlite, so I didn't use it.
>
> Tony,
>
> There is some misunderstanding here somewhere. I am completely lost. What
> is 'such a bob wiki' in this context? It acts like any other html wiki in
> the browser, it just has a plugin. I don't know what is new here or how
> being treated the same by the browser as an html wiki is something special.
>
> What works with the single file bob saver?
>
> --
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> 
> .
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Arlen Beiler]

I have tried doing SQLite but there are some caveats that need to be
accounted for.

What I would recommend you do is use data folders instead of single file
wikis. Data folders store tiddlers in individual text files using a custom
format that Jeremy came up with. It works very well for text based storage
solutions like GitHub. I'm actually really surprised no one mentioned this
yet.

To get started, install tiddlywiki globally by running npm install
tiddlywiki -g

Next, to create a blank data folder, run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder
--init server

Then run tiddlywiki ./MyNewWikiFolder --listen

Now open your browser to localhost:8080 and start exploring.

TiddlyServer is a good way to load multiple data folders on the same port.

Hope that helps,
Arlen

On Wed, Apr 29, 2020 at 7:52 AM ludwa6  wrote:

> Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this
> thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community i
> have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple approach
> suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is serving
> me well enough for now.
>
> Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also
> bothered by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of
> this beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that
> local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the
> full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with
> integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to the
> cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that seminal
> Local-First paper : Fast,
> Multi-Device, Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.
> Combining this with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface
> builder for the rest of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup
> files i've got to keep cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full
> transactional history, so no need of any backups but that one file,
> replicated to cloud), and that in broad-strokes would be the shape of my
> dream machine.
>
> So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a TiddlyWiki?
> If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me to prior art on
> which i might be able to build such a solution?  Though i am no programmer,
> i am reasonably comfortable with SQL as a data manipulation language, if
> someone can just show me how to get the TW data in there!
>
> --
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/856ad777-dc63-4491-bd74-c0391c4bf413%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Jed Carty]

ludwa6,

There have been a few database-backends made for tiddlywiki, I don't 
remember if anyone made a sqlite one or not, but it wouldn't be too hard 
and there are some examples around for it. I considered it for bob but I 
don't like sqlite, so I didn't use it.

Tony,

There is some misunderstanding here somewhere. I am completely lost. What 
is 'such a bob wiki' in this context? It acts like any other html wiki in 
the browser, it just has a plugin. I don't know what is new here or how 
being treated the same by the browser as an html wiki is something special.

What works with the single file bob saver?

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[TonyM]

Some quick points about sql.

The closest example I know is noteself which use pouch and couchdb. I would be 
keen to have wiki tiddlers use my WordPress db or cpanel sql allowing 
integrations.

I will help you go this direction.

I think the term is build a saver or sync module. Tw-reciever does this for 
php, bob to the node server, noteself to couchdb etc... Regular wikis can use 
the default download saver or timimi and other savers.

Regards
Tony

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[TonyM]

Jed

Thanks for that. I expected it was so but never got to confirm it, including 
with node and tiddlyserver. Thats great and I think we can make use of this a 
little more.

I kind of imagin one of the mobile apps acting like a dedicated browser 
containing such a bob wiki ensuring the session is never lost, just waiting to 
reconnect to the bob server when you get home to your trusted network.

It would be a nice way for single user multiple device wikis. 

The bob server would be like the home server. I imagin it works with the single 
file bob saver as well.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

Such a wealth of options for Local-First storage have emerged in this 
thread (must say: i'm super impressed with the strength of this community i 
have just joined), i've been able to quickly implement the simple approach 
suggested by Jeremy (TW Desktop, + cloud sync to Github), which is serving 
me well enough for now. 

Yet, as i'm fast creating quite a mountain of data in TW, i'm also bothered 
by the growing sense that what i really want at the back end of this 
beautiful thing is a database -ideally SQLite, which has all that 
local-first/ single-file/ portability goodness of TW, while bringing the 
full set of functionalities needed to manage a large database with 
integrity.  With a single SQLite file stored locally and replicated to the 
cloud, that gives us a solution that ticks all the boxes in that seminal 
Local-First paper : Fast, 
Multi-Device, Offline, Collaboration, Longevity, Privacy, User-Control.  
Combining this with the power of TW5 interface (really an "interface 
builder for the rest of us," i would call it), minus mess of .html backup 
files i've got to keep cleaning off my machine (SQLite has a full 
transactional history, so no need of any backups but that one file, 
replicated to cloud), and that in broad-strokes would be the shape of my 
dream machine. 

So i must ask: has anyone tried using SQLite as storage for a TiddlyWiki?  
If this is indeed technically feasible, can anyone point me to prior art on 
which i might be able to build such a solution?  Though i am no programmer, 
i am reasonably comfortable with SQL as a data manipulation language, if 
someone can just show me how to get the TW data in there!

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Jed Carty]

Tony,

You are going to have to explain what part of that isn't the case now. Once 
it is in the browser Bob can act just like a single file wiki does in the 
browser, and it has had features to let it reconnect to the server after 
being disconnected almost from the beginning, I made it to handle my 
inconsistent internet connection so that was a very important feature.

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[TonyM]

Mark/Jed,

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 7:53:34 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>>
>> being lost without warning, the wiki is only available in that browser on 
>> that computer, it isn't sharable unless you use some other saver, like the 
>> built-in download saver, to get a copy that you can then move around or 
>> share.
>>
>
> But in terms of an initial user experience, there's only one easy 
> extension to install, and they're good to go. Yes, down the road they'll 
> have to learn how to save or export the file, but it would give an easy 
> first step. And for people who never move around, it may be the only step 
> they need. 
>

Of course when it comes to single file wikis once loaded even without Local 
storage they continue to operate and accept changes even if the the save 
mechanism fails. The browser download option remains and changes could be 
exported as JSON files. To me this is already a degree of local first, 
perhaps which we have not fully made use of.

For example;
Load a wiki from a URL on your mobile and make changes, disconnect from the 
network and keep using the wiki indefinitely (don't close the window and 
don't let the phone restart). Now return to a stable internet connection 
and save the wiki at its original address. If we had a invisible save 
changes only on our mobile we could restore only if necessary we are a long 
way there.

Jed,

I mentioned you here, because I wonder if there is a way that a bob/node 
served wiki could wholey move into browser memory pending reconnection, as 
is the case for single file wikis, not withstanding this could render the 
wiki single user.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[TonyM]

Riz,

Agreed,

And I refer to my desire to enable checkin/out or lock 
to
 
make this workable on a shared drive.

Tony

On Wednesday, April 29, 2020 at 1:20:00 AM UTC+10, Riz wrote:
>
> You can use timimi to save standalone tiddlywikis anywhere in your file 
> system. So that is local first. Now if you have a Dropbox/Google 
> Drive/OneDrive folder, you can place your files in those folders- which 
> will give you cloud backup
>
> https://ibnishak.github.io/Timimi/
>
> Sincerely,
> Riz
>
>

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 7:53:34 AM UTC-7, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> being lost without warning, the wiki is only available in that browser on 
> that computer, it isn't sharable unless you use some other saver, like the 
> built-in download saver, to get a copy that you can then move around or 
> share.
>

But in terms of an initial user experience, there's only one easy extension 
to install, and they're good to go. Yes, down the road they'll have to 
learn how to save or export the file, but it would give an easy first step. 
And for people who never move around, it may be the only step they need. 

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Jed Carty]

Without installing additional things using localStorange in the browser is 
unreliable. There isn't any real nuance there, the browser can clear it out 
without informing you. The browser developers have been pretty clear that 
this isn't going to be the default state for the foreseeable future and 
isn't likely to ever change.

If you install something additional, like a browser extension, you can get 
around this limitation. But we know that because we have browser extensions 
that save wikis (tiddlyfox, etc). Using a browser extension that saves the 
wiki in the browser is a step backwards from those other solutions because 
you have to install something anyway and, while the saved wiki isn't 
necessarily in danger of being lost without warning, the wiki is only 
available in that browser on that computer, it isn't sharable unless you 
use some other saver, like the built-in download saver, to get a copy that 
you can then move around or share.

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Interesting. Note that it is browser extensions that can request this 
ability. That would suggest that there would need to be a special TW 
extension for local storage. That would make TW act almost like the old 
days, where we only needed one extension. Of course, you would need to take 
additional steps to save the data to your local hard drive (or perhaps use 
github for that).


On Tuesday, April 28, 2020 at 1:32:44 AM UTC-7, TonyM wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I know the browser supposed to be able to reclaim the space. But a recent 
> plugin of mine asked for this permission so I wonder if there is a way 
> around his?
>
> [image: Snag_6351d6a.png]
> Regrds
> Tony
>
>
>
> On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 4:15:48 AM UTC+10, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> Bob is a node-based server for TW that can run multiple wikis at a time 
>> and allow mult-user access. It can also save single-file wikis
>>
>> https://github.com/OokTech/TW5-Bob
>>
>> Here's another approach to saving.
>>
>> When your copy of TW saves numbered copies of your file into your 
>> browsers download directory, it's using the default save mechanism. This 
>> mechanism works pretty much with any browser, making it the most universal 
>> save solution. The problem is that the name and location of the saved file 
>> is not convenient. The Polly project runs a PS* script in the background 
>> that can find and copy your version in the download directory back to it's 
>> original location. One idea is that the script could be enhanced at some 
>> point to allow sub-scripts to be run. These scripts could do something like 
>> a git pull on your TW's directory. That way your local and cloud (github) 
>> versions would be kept in synch. Unfortunately, Polly hasn't grabbed a lot 
>> of attention, so I just work on it when there seems to be a need:
>>
>> https://github.com/Marxsal/polly/
>>
>> * PS is powershell, which runs on Windows, Linux, and Mac 
>>
>> ---
>>
>> There are some 20+ solutions to saving listed at TiddlyWiki.com. Another 
>> possibility for GH and TW is to put your GH folder below the downloads 
>> directory. Then use PMarios' file-backups extension to save your file. From 
>> time to time you would need to commit and push your saved file.
>>
>> Another possibility is to use the local storage saver in conjunction with 
>> the GH saver. In this configuration, TW is constantly saving itself to the 
>> browser's storage without having to press the save button. When you press 
>> the save button, the file gets pushed to GH. You can then periodically do a 
>> pull to upate your local copy. In the event that you have a net 
>> disconnection, turn off the GH saver and save a local copy (in this case, 
>> setting the browser to ask where you want to save might be a good thing).
>>
>> Local browser can be confusing, at least it was for me. Jeremy warns us 
>> that the browser could cleanse it's internal cache. So far no one has 
>> reported that event. Then again, I'm not sure whether many are using it. 
>> But used in conjunction with GH the loss of an internal cache might not be 
>> a total disaster. I'm relating this as best as I can from memory, since I 
>> only played with local storage/GH for a short time a couple weeks ago.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 9:48:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for the good explainer, Jed; clarifies some things i've been 
>>> wondering about.  
>>>
>>> As to documentation, i'm still pretty fuzzy (still finding my way around 
>>> the many granular pieces at tiddlywiki.com) but would like to know: 
>>> what is this "Bobs" of which you speak? 
>>>
>>> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:30:17 PM UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:

 ludwa6,

 In a browser it isn't possible to save things the way you are talking 
 about without some external help, like the browser plugins discussed on 
 tiddlywiki.com. These are restrictions built into browsers and we 
 can't change them. The way around them is to make a new browser, which is 
 essentially what tiddlydesktop is, or to use one of the non-git or 
 tiddlyspot savers that saves locally. Unfortunately the only thing that 
 works out of the box without any other installation is saving on remote 
 servers. I could say a lot about this but it would take a long time and be 
 about 90% profanity.

 As far as the documentation goes, I am probably the wrong person to 
 write that, but a GitHub issue would probably get some discussion and 
 results. I have learned that there is almost no overlap in the 
 documentation that I find useful and what most other people seem to find 
 useful, if the reactions to Bobs documentation are any indication.

>>>

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[TonyM]

Mark,

I know the browser supposed to be able to reclaim the space. But a recent 
plugin of mine asked for this permission so I wonder if there is a way 
around his?

[image: Snag_6351d6a.png]
Regrds
Tony



On Sunday, April 26, 2020 at 4:15:48 AM UTC+10, Mark S. wrote:
>
> Bob is a node-based server for TW that can run multiple wikis at a time 
> and allow mult-user access. It can also save single-file wikis
>
> https://github.com/OokTech/TW5-Bob
>
> Here's another approach to saving.
>
> When your copy of TW saves numbered copies of your file into your browsers 
> download directory, it's using the default save mechanism. This mechanism 
> works pretty much with any browser, making it the most universal save 
> solution. The problem is that the name and location of the saved file is 
> not convenient. The Polly project runs a PS* script in the background that 
> can find and copy your version in the download directory back to it's 
> original location. One idea is that the script could be enhanced at some 
> point to allow sub-scripts to be run. These scripts could do something like 
> a git pull on your TW's directory. That way your local and cloud (github) 
> versions would be kept in synch. Unfortunately, Polly hasn't grabbed a lot 
> of attention, so I just work on it when there seems to be a need:
>
> https://github.com/Marxsal/polly/
>
> * PS is powershell, which runs on Windows, Linux, and Mac 
>
> ---
>
> There are some 20+ solutions to saving listed at TiddlyWiki.com. Another 
> possibility for GH and TW is to put your GH folder below the downloads 
> directory. Then use PMarios' file-backups extension to save your file. From 
> time to time you would need to commit and push your saved file.
>
> Another possibility is to use the local storage saver in conjunction with 
> the GH saver. In this configuration, TW is constantly saving itself to the 
> browser's storage without having to press the save button. When you press 
> the save button, the file gets pushed to GH. You can then periodically do a 
> pull to upate your local copy. In the event that you have a net 
> disconnection, turn off the GH saver and save a local copy (in this case, 
> setting the browser to ask where you want to save might be a good thing).
>
> Local browser can be confusing, at least it was for me. Jeremy warns us 
> that the browser could cleanse it's internal cache. So far no one has 
> reported that event. Then again, I'm not sure whether many are using it. 
> But used in conjunction with GH the loss of an internal cache might not be 
> a total disaster. I'm relating this as best as I can from memory, since I 
> only played with local storage/GH for a short time a couple weeks ago.
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 9:48:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for the good explainer, Jed; clarifies some things i've been 
>> wondering about.  
>>
>> As to documentation, i'm still pretty fuzzy (still finding my way around 
>> the many granular pieces at tiddlywiki.com) but would like to know: what 
>> is this "Bobs" of which you speak? 
>>
>> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:30:17 PM UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:
>>>
>>> ludwa6,
>>>
>>> In a browser it isn't possible to save things the way you are talking 
>>> about without some external help, like the browser plugins discussed on 
>>> tiddlywiki.com. These are restrictions built into browsers and we can't 
>>> change them. The way around them is to make a new browser, which is 
>>> essentially what tiddlydesktop is, or to use one of the non-git or 
>>> tiddlyspot savers that saves locally. Unfortunately the only thing that 
>>> works out of the box without any other installation is saving on remote 
>>> servers. I could say a lot about this but it would take a long time and be 
>>> about 90% profanity.
>>>
>>> As far as the documentation goes, I am probably the wrong person to 
>>> write that, but a GitHub issue would probably get some discussion and 
>>> results. I have learned that there is almost no overlap in the 
>>> documentation that I find useful and what most other people seem to find 
>>> useful, if the reactions to Bobs documentation are any indication.
>>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Birthe C]

You can find the latest thread here:Bob 
 


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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Bob is a node-based server for TW that can run multiple wikis at a time and 
allow mult-user access. It can also save single-file wikis

https://github.com/OokTech/TW5-Bob

Here's another approach to saving.

When your copy of TW saves numbered copies of your file into your browsers 
download directory, it's using the default save mechanism. This mechanism 
works pretty much with any browser, making it the most universal save 
solution. The problem is that the name and location of the saved file is 
not convenient. The Polly project runs a PS* script in the background that 
can find and copy your version in the download directory back to it's 
original location. One idea is that the script could be enhanced at some 
point to allow sub-scripts to be run. These scripts could do something like 
a git pull on your TW's directory. That way your local and cloud (github) 
versions would be kept in synch. Unfortunately, Polly hasn't grabbed a lot 
of attention, so I just work on it when there seems to be a need:

https://github.com/Marxsal/polly/

* PS is powershell, which runs on Windows, Linux, and Mac 

---

There are some 20+ solutions to saving listed at TiddlyWiki.com. Another 
possibility for GH and TW is to put your GH folder below the downloads 
directory. Then use PMarios' file-backups extension to save your file. From 
time to time you would need to commit and push your saved file.

Another possibility is to use the local storage saver in conjunction with 
the GH saver. In this configuration, TW is constantly saving itself to the 
browser's storage without having to press the save button. When you press 
the save button, the file gets pushed to GH. You can then periodically do a 
pull to upate your local copy. In the event that you have a net 
disconnection, turn off the GH saver and save a local copy (in this case, 
setting the browser to ask where you want to save might be a good thing).

Local browser can be confusing, at least it was for me. Jeremy warns us 
that the browser could cleanse it's internal cache. So far no one has 
reported that event. Then again, I'm not sure whether many are using it. 
But used in conjunction with GH the loss of an internal cache might not be 
a total disaster. I'm relating this as best as I can from memory, since I 
only played with local storage/GH for a short time a couple weeks ago.



On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 9:48:36 AM UTC-7, ludwa6 wrote:
>
> Thanks for the good explainer, Jed; clarifies some things i've been 
> wondering about.  
>
> As to documentation, i'm still pretty fuzzy (still finding my way around 
> the many granular pieces at tiddlywiki.com) but would like to know: what 
> is this "Bobs" of which you speak? 
>
> On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:30:17 PM UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:
>>
>> ludwa6,
>>
>> In a browser it isn't possible to save things the way you are talking 
>> about without some external help, like the browser plugins discussed on 
>> tiddlywiki.com. These are restrictions built into browsers and we can't 
>> change them. The way around them is to make a new browser, which is 
>> essentially what tiddlydesktop is, or to use one of the non-git or 
>> tiddlyspot savers that saves locally. Unfortunately the only thing that 
>> works out of the box without any other installation is saving on remote 
>> servers. I could say a lot about this but it would take a long time and be 
>> about 90% profanity.
>>
>> As far as the documentation goes, I am probably the wrong person to write 
>> that, but a GitHub issue would probably get some discussion and results. I 
>> have learned that there is almost no overlap in the documentation that I 
>> find useful and what most other people seem to find useful, if the 
>> reactions to Bobs documentation are any indication.
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[ludwa6]

Thanks for the good explainer, Jed; clarifies some things i've been 
wondering about.  

As to documentation, i'm still pretty fuzzy (still finding my way around 
the many granular pieces at tiddlywiki.com) but would like to know: what is 
this "Bobs" of which you speak? 

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 5:30:17 PM UTC+1, Jed Carty wrote:
>
> ludwa6,
>
> In a browser it isn't possible to save things the way you are talking 
> about without some external help, like the browser plugins discussed on 
> tiddlywiki.com. These are restrictions built into browsers and we can't 
> change them. The way around them is to make a new browser, which is 
> essentially what tiddlydesktop is, or to use one of the non-git or 
> tiddlyspot savers that saves locally. Unfortunately the only thing that 
> works out of the box without any other installation is saving on remote 
> servers. I could say a lot about this but it would take a long time and be 
> about 90% profanity.
>
> As far as the documentation goes, I am probably the wrong person to write 
> that, but a GitHub issue would probably get some discussion and results. I 
> have learned that there is almost no overlap in the documentation that I 
> find useful and what most other people seem to find useful, if the 
> reactions to Bobs documentation are any indication.
>

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Jed Carty]

ludwa6,

In a browser it isn't possible to save things the way you are talking about 
without some external help, like the browser plugins discussed on 
tiddlywiki.com. These are restrictions built into browsers and we can't 
change them. The way around them is to make a new browser, which is 
essentially what tiddlydesktop is, or to use one of the non-git or 
tiddlyspot savers that saves locally. Unfortunately the only thing that 
works out of the box without any other installation is saving on remote 
servers. I could say a lot about this but it would take a long time and be 
about 90% profanity.

As far as the documentation goes, I am probably the wrong person to write 
that, but a GitHub issue would probably get some discussion and results. I 
have learned that there is almost no overlap in the documentation that I 
find useful and what most other people seem to find useful, if the 
reactions to Bobs documentation are any indication.

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[tw5] Re: Local-First Storage, with backup to cloud (Github)

[Mike Manchester]

Check out Nextcloud  you can signup for a free 
account or setup your own Cloud. I found this solution to work for editing 
offline on my computer and then syncing when I was connected to the 
internet. I'm using Tiddlydesktop on my lap top's and Quine on my IOS 
devices I only wish I had a solution for Android.

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 9:59:35 AM UTC-4, ludwa6 wrote:
>
> Having been away from TiddlyWiki for many moons (i.e. pre-HTML5 days), i'm 
> very happy with how the UX has improved, except for this one aspect of 
> managing data storage. Have been playing with this for some hours, but 
> cannot find any good way to get what i want on this score, which is
>
>1. In keeping with the Local-First principle 
>
> ,
>  
>the file on my machine should be updated immediately on save of a 
>newly-edited tiddler; and then..
>2. That updated file should sync with its online-accessible version 
>(Github.io, in my case) with as little friction as possible.
>
> Initially, i was pleased to discover how easy it is to save my incremental 
> changes to Github, using the "GitHub Saver" in Control Panel... Until i 
> discovered that the file in my local Github directory was not being 
> updated, which violates the Local-First principle 
>  that is one of my 
> non-negotiable requirements (i spend a fair bit of time offline, so cloud 
> storage cannot be the default, but is instead the backup).
>
>

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