Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

Soren,
My mistake.

Tones

On Tuesday, 8 June 2021 at 11:09:47 UTC+10 Soren Bjornstad wrote:

> Tones, I think you are confusing Discord and Discourse as happened earlier 
> up the thread 
> . 
> They are totally unrelated and Discourse is for long-form writing and 
> discussions , not chat.
>
> On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:32:51 PM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote:
>
>> ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention 
>> typos
>>
>> Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
>> the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
>> top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
>> value.
>>
>> On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
>> thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
>> replacement to Git hub.
>>
>> I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
>> explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
>> be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
>> extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
>> code blocks.
>>
>> Tones
>>
>>
>> \
>>
>> On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>>>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 
>

>>> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
>>> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>>>
>>>- CODE sections 
>>>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>>>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>>>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>>>
>>> Just observations
>>> TT
>>>  
>>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Soren Bjornstad]

Tones, I think you are confusing Discord and Discourse as happened earlier 
up the thread 
. They 
are totally unrelated and Discourse is for long-form writing and discussions 
, not chat.

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 6:32:51 PM UTC-5 TW Tones wrote:

> ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention typos
>
> Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
> the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
> top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
> value.
>
> On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
> thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
> replacement to Git hub.
>
> I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
> explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
> be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
> extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
> code blocks.
>
> Tones
>
>
> \
>
> On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
 interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 

>>>
>> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
>> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>>
>>- CODE sections 
>>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>>
>> Just observations
>> TT
>>  
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Charlie Veniot]

I'm sorry, and squirming such that I can't help myself:  who is Yammer, and 
do his eyes light up when you hole the light ?

Yeah, I'm a bad sMeller too.  And a gudder-heeyoumured tinker too.

This is what happens when folk can't edit their posts.  To me, potential 
for hilarity which just has me loving this version of Google Groups a 
little bit more ...

On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 8:32:51 PM UTC-3 TW Tones wrote:

> ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention typos
>
> Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
> the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
> top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
> value.
>
> On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
> thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
> replacement to Git hub.
>
> I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
> explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
> be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
> extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
> code blocks.
>
> Tones
>
>
> \
>
> On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
 interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 

>>>
>> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
>> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>>
>>- CODE sections 
>>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>>
>> Just observations
>> TT
>>  
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

ha Ha "bad sMellers," Totally agree, I am one of them, not to mention typos

Seriously being able to edit the top post was a great way of summarising 
the results that come out in the thread. A Simple standard to update the 
top post when a question is answered, and the answer etc... would add great 
value.

On discourse, Its A chat not likely to have longer more serious content, 
thus fragmented and harder to read. Has its place but in my mode not as a 
replacement to Git hub.

I still hole a light for Yammer, but I do not want to waste my time 
explaining why if few people even try it. As a knowledge curator it would 
be ideal. Many little groups and blogs can be created with the owners 
extracting links and even build collaborative documents. Its only gap was 
code blocks.

Tones


\

On Monday, 7 June 2021 at 22:28:09 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

>  saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
>>> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 
>>>
>>
> IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
> recently ... (and other functions too ...)
>
>- CODE sections 
>- Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
>- Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
>sMellers, of which there are many, including me)
>
> Just observations
> TT
>  
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
>> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. 
>>
>
IF you ONLY use this GG though EMAIL then you WON'T know what got LOST 
recently ... (and other functions too ...)

   - CODE sections 
   - Ability to PRIVATELY REPLY to posters
   - Ability to RE-EDIT for spelling errors (a serious disaster for bad 
   sMellers, of which there are many, including me)

Just observations
TT
 

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Stobot wrote:

> Oof, I have had *minor* annoyances with Google Groups posting, but sounds 
> like nothing near what you guys (Soren / Saq) have been having.


Never forget ME. I wrote the OP  :-) 
That is RHYMING SLANG too :-)

Issues are very much about HOW to OPTIMIZE search in the GG.

Jeremy & Soren found it more trivial than me.
It is an ongoing saga.

Best wishes
TT

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Stobot]

Oof, I have had *minor* annoyances with Google Groups posting, but sounds 
like nothing near what you guys (Soren / Saq) have been having. That does 
make things more urgent in my opinion. 

*Plugins*
As we contemplate migrating the community to another platform, aside from 
making it nicer / more stable to post, and making it easier to find posts, 
I'd personally be most interested in the potential for using the same 
platform for "plugins". I bring this up, because this could/would compete 
with the current links.tiddlywiki.com effort. Don't get me wrong, I love 
the concept, but I think it could be improved on, and I think those 
improvements would be easy/built-in on another forum platform. Most notably 
to make it easy for *all* users to upvote to get some ranking going. I 
think this is helpful for the new-user experience. When I start with other 
software that has user-plugin capabilities (image editing software 
paint.net - forums.getpaint.net for instance) I'll usually go to the 
plugins and expect to see the most common popular ones up top and look at 
those first. The thing about *user-generated* plugins is that you *don't 
know* if those plugins work now, or if they'll continue to work. But, as a 
shortcut if you know they're very widely used, and greatly liked you can 
feel a little more confident that someone is either maintaining it, or 
would take it over if it became abandoned. I realize that there is a way 
for people to contribute (reading the "How To Contribute" page now), but 
given that it requires doing a "Github pull request" which even *I* don't 
understand, let's just agree it could be a bit easier for new users without 
developer backgrounds. 

*Maintenance*
On a related note, there's discussion here about some level of maintenance 
of the information - Jeremy has brought it up a couple of times in this 
thread. Obviously one way to get that is to have a good ranking / voting 
system like I mention above. I'm also curious if anyone here has any 
knowledge of "free internships"? At my company we have an intern program 
that's obviously not free, but I feel like I've heard of some voluntary 
open-source software companies having / working with people who are willing 
to work on a free internship - basically just for resume building. Maybe 
that's something that somebody here knows could be an option?


On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 4:05:40 AM UTC-4 saq.i...@gmail.com wrote:

>
>> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has 
>> become horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the 
>> screen get corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), 
>> and doing code formatting is a huge pain now.
>>
>>
>> I generally compose via email but my understanding is that it is no 
>> longer straightforward to make monospaced blocks, which does indeed seem 
>> pretty poor.
>>
>  
> Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web 
> interface go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. Like 
> Soren, I often experience that the UI glitches out and I lose what I have 
> written. Combined with the difficulties in replying from mobile, I find 
> myself rarely having enough motivation to participate in the group now. 
>
> I've tried to attach a screenshot of what writing this post was like... 
>
> [image: Screenshot 2021-06-07 100214.png]
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Saq Imtiaz]

>
>
> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has become 
> horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the screen get 
> corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), and doing 
> code formatting is a huge pain now.
>
>
> I generally compose via email but my understanding is that it is no longer 
> straightforward to make monospaced blocks, which does indeed seem pretty 
> poor.
>
 
Jeremy just so you are aware, the issues with posting via the web interface 
go beyond just difficulty in making monospaced blocks. Like Soren, I often 
experience that the UI glitches out and I lose what I have written. 
Combined with the difficulties in replying from mobile, I find myself 
rarely having enough motivation to participate in the group now. 

I've tried to attach a screenshot of what writing this post was like... 

[image: Screenshot 2021-06-07 100214.png]

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Jeremy Ruston]

Hi Soren

Excellent points, thank you. 
> Jeremy's concerns seem to focus around search, but I actually haven't found 
> Google Groups search to be that bad (you have to pick "sort by relevance" 
> instead of "sort by date" after every search or it is just about useless, 
> though – if you think it's bad and you haven't tried that, do).

Search isn't actually a particular concern of mine; earlier in the thread I was 
trying to tease out TiddlyTweeters concerns about finding things. My point is 
that moving to new forum software is not going to be a panacea for 
TiddlyTweeter's concerns, which I think can only be addressed by human curation.

> However, the editing experience, while it used to be tolerable, has become 
> horrendous since the latest UI “upgrade”. I regularly have the screen get 
> corrupted or lose data (wtf, how did this become acceptable), and doing code 
> formatting is a huge pain now.

I generally compose via email but my understanding is that it is no longer 
straightforward to make monospaced blocks, which does indeed seem pretty poor.

> In terms of migration difficulty...I've been part of the Anki open-source 
> community on and off for many years, and it has moved from Google Groups to 
> TenderApp (actually a tech support system, but it worked OK for discussions 
> too, and had an awesome API back when that was rare) to Discourse, and there 
> don't seem to have been significant problems getting the community to come 
> along with. Unless we have a substantial contingent of core members who 
> refuse to switch platforms, I'm not convinced this is going to be a huge 
> problem. For people who drop in and out, having to learn one new platform 
> over another one doesn't seem like much of a change unless the new platform 
> is significantly harder to use. How many people are actually already familiar 
> with Google Groups nowadays?

I am actually not too concerned about moving the community over. When the time 
comes, we'll close the GG to new posts.

> I'm not a huge fan of Discourse either, though, FWIW, and a pure TW solution 
> would be harder to implement and probably harder for new users to use. So not 
> sure I have much of an opinion on whether we should move. If we decided to, 
> I'd be willing to chip in for hosting costs.

I'm using Discourse a fair amount on other projects. It seems to be a nice, 
well polished piece of engineering, but is conceptually somewhat old fashioned. 
I think it would constitute an improvement, but perhaps not by as much as we 
might hope.

Best wishes

Jeremy

> 
>> On Thursday, June 3, 2021 at 7:07:18 PM UTC-5 flohit...@googlemail.com wrote:
>> Hey all, 
>> this has been annoying for me, too. I thought, discourse isn‘t that old (or 
>> other open source hostable solutions), so probably it’s easier to stay here. 
>> But GG is crap. 
>> I think discourse is a good Solution that can be implemented first on the 
>> side, if some „main“ people are willing to commit to do so. I mean mostly 
>> Jeremy and people who are actively developing and discussing stuff, the core 
>> community. Discourse  can imo be a good discussion forum for people who are 
>> already a bit committed to a project and want to discuss it more deeply. The 
>> better searchability and more asynchronous, forum–not–feed approach quite 
>> naturally allows for deeper accumulation of knowledge which will be 
>> accessible for newbies as well. I also often am afraid that if a question of 
>> mine won’t be answered fastly, it will just drown in the endless feed...
>> so i think a Good first step is moving discussions regarding more specific 
>> projects to discourse which are a bit more technical and not so much of 
>> concern for newer people. For example the developers group, discussion about 
>> next releases, etc. discourse can be helpful bridge between purely technical 
>> GitHub and social media, it has some functions that also enhance that afaik. 
>> If people register that they can get their deeper questions answered more 
>> thoroughly on discourse, because it has a better interface and the more 
>> expert people usually hang out there, they will move there, but not out of 
>> idealism.
>> most discourse forums demand a login, which can be a bit offputting for 
>> complete newbies. So outlets on „mainstream“ Networks should be maintained – 
>> Reddit, the matrix channel (which is a bit undervalued :( ) , maybe this 
>> here... 
>> discord channels are also quite popular – in order to provide easy 
>> accessibility for people that are less experienced.
>> Also I would believe someone in the tiddlycommunity could set up an 
>> instance? There are several projects involving servers, right?There also 
>> already is a tiddlywiki subgroup on fission, but I don’t think that’s for 
>> general purposes (?)
>> TiddlyTweeter schrieb am Sonntag, 30. Mai 2021 um 08:34:37 UTC+2:
>>> This Google Group is OUR main end-user forum. 
>>> 
>>> There are problems with Google Groups. More recently

Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao TW Tones

I hear you.

AND I do SEE that GG got impoverished ... recently the following  ...

   - Easy ability to email a poster privately went AWOL ...
   - CODE blocks just disappeared
   - Ability to RE-EDIT posts went away
   - Taggery is mainly currently pointless (complex issue in TW on any 
   platform)
   - *and more ...*

That is a LOT practically.

That said, MY view now is focused on *can I FIND what I need when I need 
it?*
 
YOUR EXIT approach is interesting.
Simply from my previous experience I'm inclined to the view we NEED first 
to prove GG is a total heap of problems for OUR needs.
OR provide an additive method to FIND.

Just thoughts
TT

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 09:50:48 UTC+2 TW Tones wrote:

> TT,
>
> I was just reviewing the concept of exit strategy. I am running a test on 
> a group I own. Google permits you to export most information they hold for 
> you and this seems to include ALL mail in a google group. It would most 
> likely be "big data" but it can be done it seems. Then with this available 
> it may be possible to algorithmically or crowd source curation of the data 
> for the backbone of a new solution. The key issue is separating content 
> inside emails, such as with reply and forwarding where a whole or part of 
> the conversation accrues in the text of each email but it is not 
> insurmountable. It may also be possible to get something out of the mail 
> archive. 
>
> I am not pretending this is easy, and a concerted effort and project would 
> need to be mounted.
>
> Regards
> Tones
>
> On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 16:22:46 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>> TW Tones wrote:
>>
>>> ... It is true there are a lot of good ideas but its like herding cats 
>>> and always will be unless there were a clear leader as a replacement. 
>>>
>>
>>  Lol! Right! Herding cats? Non-starter!
>>
>> You probably read my last two posts.
>> Actually rather than focus on exit strategies I got kinda interested in 
>> *whether 
>> we can leverage here better?*
>>
>> What does seem very clear is that in the native web interface in this GG 
>> is totally inadequate to easy probe of its own history.
>>
>> I think this is an empirical matter. *HOW do you FIND what you need?*
>>
>> IF we could more accurately probe the archives it would address a big 
>> section of the problematic.
>>
>> Thoughts
>> TT
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

TT,

I was just reviewing the concept of exit strategy. I am running a test on a 
group I own. Google permits you to export most information they hold for 
you and this seems to include ALL mail in a google group. It would most 
likely be "big data" but it can be done it seems. Then with this available 
it may be possible to algorithmically or crowd source curation of the data 
for the backbone of a new solution. The key issue is separating content 
inside emails, such as with reply and forwarding where a whole or part of 
the conversation accrues in the text of each email but it is not 
insurmountable. It may also be possible to get something out of the mail 
archive. 

I am not pretending this is easy, and a concerted effort and project would 
need to be mounted.

Regards
Tones

On Wednesday, 2 June 2021 at 16:22:46 UTC+10 TiddlyTweeter wrote:

> TW Tones wrote:
>
>> ... It is true there are a lot of good ideas but its like herding cats 
>> and always will be unless there were a clear leader as a replacement. 
>>
>
>  Lol! Right! Herding cats? Non-starter!
>
> You probably read my last two posts.
> Actually rather than focus on exit strategies I got kinda interested in 
> *whether 
> we can leverage here better?*
>
> What does seem very clear is that in the native web interface in this GG 
> is totally inadequate to easy probe of its own history.
>
> I think this is an empirical matter. *HOW do you FIND what you need?*
>
> IF we could more accurately probe the archives it would address a big 
> section of the problematic.
>
> Thoughts
> TT
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

TW Tones wrote:

> ... It is true there are a lot of good ideas but its like herding cats and 
> always will be unless there were a clear leader as a replacement. 
>

 Lol! Right! Herding cats? Non-starter!

You probably read my last two posts.
Actually rather than focus on exit strategies I got kinda interested in 
*whether 
we can leverage here better?*

What does seem very clear is that in the native web interface in this GG is 
totally inadequate to easy probe of its own history.

I think this is an empirical matter. *HOW do you FIND what you need?*

IF we could more accurately probe the archives it would address a big 
section of the problematic.

Thoughts
TT

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Mat

I appreciate your post. Because you have the history to have nice clear 
opinions!

ACTUALLY in my frame of mind NOW, rather than in the past, I actually think 
a FIRST question might be...

* Can we delve the GG better? For the solutions that ARE there users need?*

In other words, can we leverage this GG group better?

Best wishes
TT

On Monday, 31 May 2021 at 18:33:15 UTC+2 Mat wrote:

> If someone is serious about just getting out of GG, then I guess a first 
> thing to do is to put up some comparison table or even a wiki to collect 
> benefits and drawbacks with each solution and pit them against each other. 
> Including GG. One idea would be to put up a google form so people can post 
> in proposals and describe various aspects of them.
>
> As I said though, I'm of the firm belief that there's no point in 
> attempting to move anywhere without the key people, notably Jeremy, coming 
> along. So any such investigation would still only *maybe *convince anyone.
>
> BTW, is there any discussion software with an API that is, or could be, 
> *compatible* with TW? I don't really understand what it is I'm asking 
> about here, but just maybe there'd be some way to interact with an external 
> service via ones own TW? As you may recall, Mark and I recently created a 
> solution to import+convert Google Sheets data into tiddlers 
> . And Jeremys very recent proposal 
> for a JSON formatted 
> tiddler store briefly touches API aspects. Using TW as a front end to 
> external services is a pretty darn cool idea *per se* and should also 
> open up TW for a wider audience, but integrating it with some external 
> discussion service would be a great use case with much practical value for 
> the community.
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Jeremy

I thought that a great example. Yes you CAN find things IF you know an 
exact string, BUT the issue is you  need to know the exact phrase.
AND you need to use Google for easiest hit. 

The issue that the OP was, maybe not as clear as it should have been, is I 
want to be able to search the vast GG archive to find solutions I DON'T 
know the exact title of.

To give a couple of examples ... 

   - HOW do I find "all but only" what Eric Shulman has done about cloud 
   maps?
   - HOW do I find posts about "NotoWritey" (Or is it "NotoWriterly") that 
   specifically discuss its use of regular expressions?

My contention is that we are losing history here from lack of appropriate 
tagging, lack of upvoting & pretty awful search (i.e. GG's native search, 
not Google per se).

I think the thread kinda inched towards re-hashing shifting groups. BUT my 
intent was not really so concerned with that.
RATHER: *HOW can we make the best of what we have here in GG?*

Finding solutions seems to me the premier concern in this GG. 

I'm wondering if we might in a TW design a better interface to Google that 
will better deliver the results users needs?

Thoughts
TT
'
On Monday, 31 May 2021 at 15:56:12 UTC+2 jeremy...@gmail.com wrote:

> NO, Google Groups search is TERRIBLE.
> And WORSE than it was before.
>
> And that is a MAJOR factor in end-user frustration. 
>
> Please prove me wrong. 
> *Show some complex searches that work? *:-) 
>
>
> I think whether we use Google Groups or Discourse, the best way to search 
> the archives will always be a straightforward web search (OK, Google 
> search). As an experiment, I searched for a literal phrase from a message 
> in the group a month ago, and google found it instantly:
>
>
> https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22&client=safari&hl=en-gb&sxsrf=ALeKk03Qjh7fZzQxEE2_9X6csk0ZQAX5hA%3A1622469136222&ei=EOq0YJjtDI-NhbIPicKYkAw&oq=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANQ8UxY8Uxg705oBHAAeACAAUGIAX2SAQEymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiYtZfEiPTwAhWPRkEAHQkhBsIQ4dUDCA0&uact=5
>
> If the URL doesn't come through, it is just the result of searching for 
> the string (including quotes):
>
> "winter 2019, when we were working on the Commander plugin"
>
> As ever, the difficulty is coming up with the right search phrases.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[TW Tones]

Folks,

I have being reluctant to reenter (and read everyone's detailed responses) 
this discussion, as it has being had many times. It is true there are a lot 
of good ideas but its like herding cats and always will be unless there 
were a clear leader as a replacement. 

I tried to promote the use of Yammer which I believed to meet many of the 
requirements, but too few people tried it to see why I thought it was a 
good solution. Most people argue for the system they are already familiar 
with (as I was with Yammer having helped build a 45,000 person yammer 
network) but then do not look into other peoples suggestions. I have looked 
at a few that have being proposed, but reviewing them is in the dark with 
no clear set of requirements to measure them against.

Going forward;

   1. Build a list of requirements collaboratively
   2. Build a  comparison table (as per Matt)
   3. Community Review fills out the table
   4. If there are some outstanding solutions initiate some trials
   5. Ask Jeremy to support any obvious solution

If necessary set up a fund raising account to help if funding is necessary.
Be carful seeking reviews from people that there are user and developer 
perspectives that can be different.

*Finally:* Since it is taking us so long anyway perhaps we should embark on 
a developing tiddlywiki solution - "drink our own Champaign". In this way 
posts could include tiddlywiki code and other objects. This could fix some 
existing limitations of tiddlywiki.

Regards
Tones
On Tuesday, 1 June 2021 at 02:33:15 UTC+10 Mat wrote:

> If someone is serious about just getting out of GG, then I guess a first 
> thing to do is to put up some comparison table or even a wiki to collect 
> benefits and drawbacks with each solution and pit them against each other. 
> Including GG. One idea would be to put up a google form so people can post 
> in proposals and describe various aspects of them.
>
> As I said though, I'm of the firm belief that there's no point in 
> attempting to move anywhere without the key people, notably Jeremy, coming 
> along. So any such investigation would still only *maybe *convince anyone.
>
> BTW, is there any discussion software with an API that is, or could be, 
> *compatible* with TW? I don't really understand what it is I'm asking 
> about here, but just maybe there'd be some way to interact with an external 
> service via ones own TW? As you may recall, Mark and I recently created a 
> solution to import+convert Google Sheets data into tiddlers 
> . And Jeremys very recent proposal 
> for a JSON formatted 
> tiddler store briefly touches API aspects. Using TW as a front end to 
> external services is a pretty darn cool idea *per se* and should also 
> open up TW for a wider audience, but integrating it with some external 
> discussion service would be a great use case with much practical value for 
> the community.
>
> <:-)
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Mat]

If someone is serious about just getting out of GG, then I guess a first 
thing to do is to put up some comparison table or even a wiki to collect 
benefits and drawbacks with each solution and pit them against each other. 
Including GG. One idea would be to put up a google form so people can post 
in proposals and describe various aspects of them.

As I said though, I'm of the firm belief that there's no point in 
attempting to move anywhere without the key people, notably Jeremy, coming 
along. So any such investigation would still only *maybe *convince anyone.

BTW, is there any discussion software with an API that is, or could be, 
*compatible* with TW? I don't really understand what it is I'm asking about 
here, but just maybe there'd be some way to interact with an external 
service via ones own TW? As you may recall, Mark and I recently created a 
solution to import+convert Google Sheets data into tiddlers 
. And Jeremys very recent proposal 
for a JSON formatted 
tiddler store briefly touches API aspects. Using TW as a front end to 
external services is a pretty darn cool idea *per se* and should also open 
up TW for a wider audience, but integrating it with some external 
discussion service would be a great use case with much practical value for 
the community.

<:-)

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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Jeremy Ruston]

> NO, Google Groups search is TERRIBLE.
> And WORSE than it was before.
> 
> And that is a MAJOR factor in end-user frustration. 
> 
> Please prove me wrong. 
> Show some complex searches that work? :-) 

I think whether we use Google Groups or Discourse, the best way to search the 
archives will always be a straightforward web search (OK, Google search). As an 
experiment, I searched for a literal phrase from a message in the group a month 
ago, and google found it instantly:

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22&client=safari&hl=en-gb&sxsrf=ALeKk03Qjh7fZzQxEE2_9X6csk0ZQAX5hA%3A1622469136222&ei=EOq0YJjtDI-NhbIPicKYkAw&oq=+%22winter+2019%2C+when+we+were+working+on+the+Commander+plugin%22&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EANQ8UxY8Uxg705oBHAAeACAAUGIAX2SAQEymAEAoAEBqgEHZ3dzLXdpesABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz&ved=0ahUKEwiYtZfEiPTwAhWPRkEAHQkhBsIQ4dUDCA0&uact=5

If the URL doesn't come through, it is just the result of searching for the 
string (including quotes):

"winter 2019, when we were working on the Commander plugin"

As ever, the difficulty is coming up with the right search phrases.

Best wishes

Jeremy



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Re: [tw5] Re: [Comment] My Ongoing Irritations with Google Groups

[Finn Lancaster]

Hey all!

Just checking out this thread, I would like to add my dissatisfaction with
GG, which I find to be dis-intuitive and old-feeling. Looking at some ideas
for a new platform, I can see that most of them cost either money, or lots
and lots of time. As I feel that much of the community seems to shy-away
from groups such as discord, etc, I would like to add freeflarum
https://freeflarum.com
to the list.
In short, FreeFlarum is a free forum software, which is not super-popular,
but nonetheless extremely powerful. In its free tier, it offers custom
domain via DNS, admins, and sign-ups. Having used it briefly for my own
site a while back, I found it really easy-to-use and functional.
What this would mean is that FreeFlarum could be added directly to
TiddlyWiki.com as a subdomain, and allow anyone to sign-up and post. An
issue that I see off the bat, however, is whether it’ll be around a long
time, since it is hard to judge right now.

On Sun, May 30, 2021 at 4:34 PM Mat  wrote:

> Saq Imtiaz wrote:
>
>> The effort and resources required to implement a good discussion system
>> are *quite substantial, *and personally I think better spent on various
>> other needs in the community.
>>
>
> Yeah, no doubt it would be a substantial effort. But on the other hand
> there's no particular rush AND I think it would bring a lot of enhancement
> to TW itself. A most glaring lack in TW is probably "multi user
> capabilities" and tools for collaboration. I'm sure we lose a lot of people
> because of this, particularly "business" use cases. "Multi use" is of
> course only one aspect for a discussion system but I also think there is a
> lot that is already solved or at least half-solved with TW just with what
> we already have.
>
> Lastly, the user split is already a reality.
>>
>
> Yeah... and that is why I spontaneously dislike these new "let's change
> forums" initiatives. I think they are more destructive than constructive.
> For one, IF a move is to be done it needs the endorsement of Big J. Where
> he goes, the crowd has to go. So just "registering a new TW group"
> somewhere... poor idea.
>
> IMO eating our own dog food would bring things closer together. It would
> be the flagship real life use case for a product that current doesn't
> really have any real official use case demo other than the "TW website".
> Why should a company, or even just someone with high demands, *trust *that
> TW can *perform IRL*?
>
> But I know; talk is cheap, especially from someone who doesn't really know
> what it takes.
>
> <:-)
>
>
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> 
> .
>

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