Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Costin Manolache wrote: Davanum Srinivas wrote: Henri, it's a recommendation, NOT a mandate. So even if this is not done it's ok (http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg06498.html) -- dims A mandate means something like "if you don't do that, your accounts and/or project CVS will be disabled" OK A recommendation means "you should do that, it's in the best interest of the foundation" OK The problem is that this is a recommendation combined with an ambiguous legal threat ( as usual ) - if someone would propose that we implement this, I don't think I could vote -1 ( given the undefined "legal" implications on ASF and committer protection - I'm not a lawyer, so if the board implies that we may create legal problems ... ) ( well, I would vote with my feet - that's sure ). I could understand legal implications in removing some binaries with incompatible license (even if it will create a great confusion in end users mind), but still wonder the legal reasons to remove author tag . - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Davanum Srinivas wrote: Henri, it's a recommendation, NOT a mandate. So even if this is not done it's ok (http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg06498.html) -- dims A mandate means something like "if you don't do that, your accounts and/or project CVS will be disabled" A recommendation means "you should do that, it's in the best interest of the foundation" The problem is that this is a recommendation combined with an ambiguous legal threat ( as usual ) - if someone would propose that we implement this, I don't think I could vote -1 ( given the undefined "legal" implications on ASF and committer protection - I'm not a lawyer, so if the board implies that we may create legal problems ... ) ( well, I would vote with my feet - that's sure ). Ant PMC did the right thing ( IMO ) as a PMC - they implemented the board recommendation. "The board is responsible for management and oversight of the business and affairs of the corporation" and it only "delegates decision-making authority for the _technical_ direction of projects to PMCs" ( from roles.html ). The only right that committers and PMCs have is to write code and take care of the technical things. Maintaining the authors and contributors in the source files ( like most open source projects do ) is not a technical decision. Costin --- Henri Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Remy Maucherat wrote: Filip Hanik (lists) wrote: Politics require mature representation...and are we sure that Tomcat has this. We have Costin :) Yes ! Unless becoming a TLP gives us an instant advantage or will change some things that really do need to change, is it worth the time and effort. IMHO becoming a TLP should have a really good reason, political leverage is a reason, is it validated? One of our big barriers today is the licensing issue, but that is still in the "being resolved" mode. There was an email to all committers yesterday saying to not turn things upside down quite yet, as they want to try to address the issue. Quoted: " For now, don't worry about taking any harsh measures to deal with third-party code. Ensure you're following their licenses, of course, but a formal policy will be drafted up and discussed." For me, my vote would be 0. Cause at present moment, unless I worked for an organization that paid me to get involved in all the politics of a PMC, I just want to write code, not push papers around. I was thinking like that. And then stuff happens (the authors tag thing and the binaries thing), and I then realize maybe it would be better to do things differently :( Well what will happen to commiters or projects where the authors tag are not removed ? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Davanum Srinivas wrote: Henri, it's a recommendation, NOT a mandate. So even if this is not done it's ok (http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg06498.html) Good I think we should forget about this recommandation, at least in Tomcat. Sad that Ant follow this recommandation ;( - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Henri, it's a recommendation, NOT a mandate. So even if this is not done it's ok (http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/msg06498.html) -- dims --- Henri Gomez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Remy Maucherat wrote: > > > Filip Hanik (lists) wrote: > > > >> Politics require mature representation...and > >> are we sure that Tomcat has this. > > > > > > We have Costin :) > > Yes ! > > >> Unless becoming a TLP gives us an instant advantage or will change some > >> things that really do need to change, is it worth the time and effort. > >> IMHO > >> becoming a TLP should have a really good reason, political leverage is a > >> reason, is it validated? > >> > >> One of our big barriers today is the licensing issue, but that is > >> still in > >> the "being resolved" mode. There was an email to all committers yesterday > >> saying to not turn things upside down quite yet, as they want to try to > >> address the issue. Quoted: > >> " For now, don't worry about taking any harsh measures to deal > >> with third-party code. Ensure you're following their licenses, of > >> course, but a formal policy will be drafted up and discussed." > >> > >> For me, my vote would be 0. Cause at present moment, unless I worked > >> for an > >> organization that paid me to get involved in all the politics of a PMC, I > >> just want to write code, not push papers around. > > > > > > I was thinking like that. And then stuff happens (the authors tag thing > > and the binaries thing), and I then realize maybe it would be better to > > do things differently :( > > Well what will happen to commiters or projects where the > authors tag are not removed ? > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > = Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Remy Maucherat wrote: Filip Hanik (lists) wrote: Politics require mature representation...and are we sure that Tomcat has this. We have Costin :) Yes ! Unless becoming a TLP gives us an instant advantage or will change some things that really do need to change, is it worth the time and effort. IMHO becoming a TLP should have a really good reason, political leverage is a reason, is it validated? One of our big barriers today is the licensing issue, but that is still in the "being resolved" mode. There was an email to all committers yesterday saying to not turn things upside down quite yet, as they want to try to address the issue. Quoted: " For now, don't worry about taking any harsh measures to deal with third-party code. Ensure you're following their licenses, of course, but a formal policy will be drafted up and discussed." For me, my vote would be 0. Cause at present moment, unless I worked for an organization that paid me to get involved in all the politics of a PMC, I just want to write code, not push papers around. I was thinking like that. And then stuff happens (the authors tag thing and the binaries thing), and I then realize maybe it would be better to do things differently :( Well what will happen to commiters or projects where the authors tag are not removed ? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Filip Hanik (lists) wrote: Politics require mature representation...and are we sure that Tomcat has this. We have Costin :) Unless becoming a TLP gives us an instant advantage or will change some things that really do need to change, is it worth the time and effort. IMHO becoming a TLP should have a really good reason, political leverage is a reason, is it validated? One of our big barriers today is the licensing issue, but that is still in the "being resolved" mode. There was an email to all committers yesterday saying to not turn things upside down quite yet, as they want to try to address the issue. Quoted: " For now, don't worry about taking any harsh measures to deal with third-party code. Ensure you're following their licenses, of course, but a formal policy will be drafted up and discussed." For me, my vote would be 0. Cause at present moment, unless I worked for an organization that paid me to get involved in all the politics of a PMC, I just want to write code, not push papers around. I was thinking like that. And then stuff happens (the authors tag thing and the binaries thing), and I then realize maybe it would be better to do things differently :( Rémy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Lord, the Bible has had nothing but marketing since the beginning, ever since Constantine killed the Christians that disagreed with the robber's synod. Even today the Bible is the most cobbled book on the market, just to meet marketing demands. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Just as existing committers VOTE to add new committers, ASF Members do the same. So my 2 cents, If you wish to effect change, lobby/hint someone you know that you are interested (see list at http://www.apache.org/foundation/members.html) as there are periodic VOTE's (there was one during last ApacheCon). Thanks, dims --- "Shapira, Yoav" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi, > > >So, again what is the board, why do I need it, are they going to make > me > >more productive, did anyone received some dev tool? > >There is a PayPal account. Where is the money? > > I'm not a Board member, but AFAIK most of the above money questions are > answered at http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html. It's in > the technical infrastructure that transfers this message, hosts our CVS > and downloads, etc. Board members don't get paid and are all working > developers. They're elected by Members of the ASF as explained in > http://www.apache.org/foundation/. > > They make all of us more productive (and have been doing so for years) > by providing the technical infrastructure described above. > > I don't agree with all their policies and recommendations, especially > the recent ones on removing author tags and not including 3rd party > jars. But by and large I think they're doing and have done a good job, > have not muddled in individual projects, and their success is evident > from the status of the ASF as the leading provider of open source > software. > > Yoav Shapira > > > > This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, > and may > contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This > e-mail is > intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, > copied, > printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended > recipient, please > immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. > Thank you. > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > = Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Hi, >So, again what is the board, why do I need it, are they going to make me >more productive, did anyone received some dev tool? >There is a PayPal account. Where is the money? I'm not a Board member, but AFAIK most of the above money questions are answered at http://www.apache.org/foundation/contributing.html. It's in the technical infrastructure that transfers this message, hosts our CVS and downloads, etc. Board members don't get paid and are all working developers. They're elected by Members of the ASF as explained in http://www.apache.org/foundation/. They make all of us more productive (and have been doing so for years) by providing the technical infrastructure described above. I don't agree with all their policies and recommendations, especially the recent ones on removing author tags and not including 3rd party jars. But by and large I think they're doing and have done a good job, have not muddled in individual projects, and their success is evident from the status of the ASF as the leading provider of open source software. Yoav Shapira This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Henri Gomez wrote: Board is elected by Members, and Members by Commiters isn't it ? Of course not. Members are elected by Members. Usually "committers" that make constant contributions to ASF and prove community spirit and so on ( read one of the past postings by Stefano or Pier for the exact list ). Majority of tomcat and jakarta doesn't fit ( well, I was once offered the honor, but I didn't felt I raised to such high level and choose to stick with the regular committers :-) Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Henri Gomez wrote: For now Tomcat is just one of the various jakarta projects and as such we could see jakarta PMC take decisions we don't agree with. Most of us are in Jakarta PMC - and those who are not, only have to ask and they'll be added. At least for Jakarta PMC decisions we do have a chance to express our opinions and a vote. And if it turns out that a majority of the developers in Jakarta ( or a majority of developers in apache ) have a different opinion - I could live with that, even if I don't agree. Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
This is a tough decision. A top level project can give us more leverage, but it is also way more politics. Politics require mature representation...and are we sure that Tomcat has this. Unless becoming a TLP gives us an instant advantage or will change some things that really do need to change, is it worth the time and effort. IMHO becoming a TLP should have a really good reason, political leverage is a reason, is it validated? One of our big barriers today is the licensing issue, but that is still in the "being resolved" mode. There was an email to all committers yesterday saying to not turn things upside down quite yet, as they want to try to address the issue. Quoted: " For now, don't worry about taking any harsh measures to deal with third-party code. Ensure you're following their licenses, of course, but a formal policy will be drafted up and discussed." For me, my vote would be 0. Cause at present moment, unless I worked for an organization that paid me to get involved in all the politics of a PMC, I just want to write code, not push papers around. Best Filip --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 3/5/2004 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
> From: Shapira, Yoav > > Now that some more coherent arguments have been put forth, I > tend to +0. > Visibility-wise, I don't think Apache-Jakarta-Tomcat and > Apache-Tomcat are very different: our reputation is already > established. But if we can do something to give us a louder > voice and assuage some of the dissatisfaction with the Board, > that's a good thing IMHO. > I've been involved in ASF for years. Perhaps the problem is with me, cause I've lived for 30 years in communism, and trust me, I know what the democracy is, so I'm very sensitive for things like 'The board has decided'. One of my grandfathers left this world for such 'board decision'. So, again what is the board, why do I need it, are they going to make me more productive, did anyone received some dev tool? There is a PayPal account. Where is the money? That PayPal account made me sure that I'm in the wrong universe (Pier found that more then a year ago, although for a different reason). MT. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Hi, >> So +1 for tomcat as TLP, and Remy as PMC chair. > >+1 for both. Now that some more coherent arguments have been put forth, I tend to +0. Visibility-wise, I don't think Apache-Jakarta-Tomcat and Apache-Tomcat are very different: our reputation is already established. But if we can do something to give us a louder voice and assuage some of the dissatisfaction with the Board, that's a good thing IMHO. Yoav Shapira This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
As TLP we can recomend a chair ( of course, legally the board can nominate whoever they want - and the chair has almost complete autority over the project, the PMC has just an advisory role legally - but so far the common practice was that the board only "hints" who they don't want as chair and most chairs do have the common sense to not exercise the rights they have ). So +1 for tomcat as TLP, and Remy as PMC chair. +1 for both. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Costin Manolache wrote: Shapira, Yoav wrote: Hi, I read the original thread again. Some of Costin's objections are no longer relevant (e.g. Struts and log4j moving out of Jakarta). Some of the pro-community arguments (paraphrased as tomcat brings more visibility to other jakarta projects) I don't think change if tomcat is its own top-level project. To be honest - my objections no longer matter. This whole "move out" is started by different groups outside jakarata who felt jakarta was getting too big ( and their favorite projects got less attention or recognition ). I currently agree with Mladen that it would be much better to "move out" of apache altogheter. I already quit Ant pmc and project ( they implemented the board recommandation to remove the names of the authors from their code - which I consider incompatible with my principles and open source practices ). Currently tomcat is the only project that keeps me around in ASF. Yes, I also send my negatives remarks to the related lists. Fact is - in Jakarta or as TLP, tomcat code will still be under the control of the ASF board, and will still be owned by ASF - with no real legal rights for the tomcat committers. Well - the 3 or 4 of us who are "members" ( Remy, Craig, Justina, Pier ) do have a vote in electing the board and are theoretically copyright holders of the code. And it is true that ASF is usually hiding the reality of its legal organization - so most of the time we can just ignore it. For a long time I tought we could have an environment in jakarta where developer opinion matters - even if it means readings hundreds of emails and flame wars on jakarta-general or pmc. And I tought that I can ignore the parts of ASF I don't agree with - like it's top-down management and lack of real legal rights for developers over the code they work on. I see more and more ASF commiters complaining about various Board decisions, so it may be time to see if ASF is a democratic organisation, where peoples (not just members) opinions count (and as such they could make change some recent decisions). If it's not the case, well it may be time for many of us to fly to others land, and try to reconstruct a developpment community where people (developpers) have their word to say in all decisions and don't let bureaucraty decide what they should do. After all, we're not pay by ASF, and for example I'm more than unhappy to see @authors tags (or whatever in native land) removed by others. That's why Tomcat should became TLP, having it's own PMC which could and should contest board decision when they appears bad. For now Tomcat is just one of the various jakarta projects and as such we could see jakarta PMC take decisions we don't agree with. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Remy Maucherat wrote: Mladen Turk wrote: -Original Message- From: Henri Gomez Hi to all, Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like ant last year. What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? -1 Why would we need that? Because we don't have any leverage on the ASF decisions right now, and this is quite bad. I agree. At least that will give us a chance to break the "consensus" of the board on stupid decisions and on their attitude of never consulting with the people who are affected by their decisions. As TLP we can recomend a chair ( of course, legally the board can nominate whoever they want - and the chair has almost complete autority over the project, the PMC has just an advisory role legally - but so far the common practice was that the board only "hints" who they don't want as chair and most chairs do have the common sense to not exercise the rights they have ). So +1 for tomcat as TLP, and Remy as PMC chair. If we are not recignised already as a valuable part of ASF, why all the fuzz? Because we don't have the said recognition. I think we have plenty of recognition. Maybe not by ASF itself. Trust me - the recognition won't change if we are a TLP. Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
-Original Message- If we are not recignised already as a valuable part of ASF, why all the fuzz? Because we don't have the said recognition. ??? I'm thinking to leave the ASF at all... Wait please... What was the altruistic community become the playground for the major companies like Sun, Covalent, IBM, JBoss, etc... I'm not so sure that I wish to participate in the community where some shareholder board has a significant influence here. Hum, it remind me 'sad and black ideas' I've got some years ago. But recall that you can make thing evolve when you're inside. If the Tomcat has not been recognized already as a valuable ASF project, then why all the effort? Who do we need to convince? What are the measures? Well Tomcat is recognized since its the Reference Implementation of the latest 3 servlets APIs. I know that I could sound a little bit idealistic, but do we really need the marketing? What would be the purpose of such marketing? Not commercial marketing, a ASF / OSS marketing operation. The best products do not need the marketing (take the bible for example). If someone thinks that my work needs the market evaluation, I'm charging $200 per hour. Of course. Who the fuck is the ASF board at all? How did it get elected? Not by the committers that's for sure. Board is elected by Members, and Members by Commiters isn't it ? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Shapira, Yoav wrote: Hi, I read the original thread again. Some of Costin's objections are no longer relevant (e.g. Struts and log4j moving out of Jakarta). Some of the pro-community arguments (paraphrased as tomcat brings more visibility to other jakarta projects) I don't think change if tomcat is its own top-level project. To be honest - my objections no longer matter. This whole "move out" is started by different groups outside jakarata who felt jakarta was getting too big ( and their favorite projects got less attention or recognition ). I currently agree with Mladen that it would be much better to "move out" of apache altogheter. I already quit Ant pmc and project ( they implemented the board recommandation to remove the names of the authors from their code - which I consider incompatible with my principles and open source practices ). Currently tomcat is the only project that keeps me around in ASF. Fact is - in Jakarta or as TLP, tomcat code will still be under the control of the ASF board, and will still be owned by ASF - with no real legal rights for the tomcat committers. Well - the 3 or 4 of us who are "members" ( Remy, Craig, Justina, Pier ) do have a vote in electing the board and are theoretically copyright holders of the code. And it is true that ASF is usually hiding the reality of its legal organization - so most of the time we can just ignore it. For a long time I tought we could have an environment in jakarta where developer opinion matters - even if it means readings hundreds of emails and flame wars on jakarta-general or pmc. And I tought that I can ignore the parts of ASF I don't agree with - like it's top-down management and lack of real legal rights for developers over the code they work on. I was wrong. Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Mladen Turk wrote: -Original Message- If we are not recignised already as a valuable part of ASF, why all the fuzz? Because we don't have the said recognition. ??? I'm thinking to leave the ASF at all... That sounds like releasing Tomcat binaries outside ASF... What was the altruistic community become the playground for the major companies like Sun, Covalent, IBM, JBoss, etc... I'm not so sure that I wish to participate in the community where some shareholder board has a significant influence here. If the Tomcat has not been recognized already as a valuable ASF project, then why all the effort? Who do we need to convince? What are the measures? I know that I could sound a little bit idealistic, but do we really need the marketing? What would be the purpose of such marketing? The best products do not need the marketing (take the bible for example). Yes, but marketing is very important nowaday probably more than 2000 years ago. If someone thinks that my work needs the market evaluation, I'm charging $200 per hour. Who the fuck is the ASF board at all? How did it get elected? Not by the committers that's for sure. The board started with some of the httpd committers so they understand committers problems. MT. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Unet Requests #118711] RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
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RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
After reading the [5.0] Problems with the next release thread (and noticing that the jakarta PMC wasn't part of the last meeting's minutes) +1 > -Original Message- > From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:23 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project > > > > >> > > >>What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? > > >> > > +1... If you want reasons/opinions, I can offer them. :) > > -- > == > = >Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] > http://www.jaguNET.com/ > "A society that will trade a > little liberty for a little order > will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
> -Original Message- > > If we are not recignised already as a valuable part of ASF, why all > > the fuzz? > > Because we don't have the said recognition. > ??? I'm thinking to leave the ASF at all... What was the altruistic community become the playground for the major companies like Sun, Covalent, IBM, JBoss, etc... I'm not so sure that I wish to participate in the community where some shareholder board has a significant influence here. If the Tomcat has not been recognized already as a valuable ASF project, then why all the effort? Who do we need to convince? What are the measures? I know that I could sound a little bit idealistic, but do we really need the marketing? What would be the purpose of such marketing? The best products do not need the marketing (take the bible for example). If someone thinks that my work needs the market evaluation, I'm charging $200 per hour. Who the fuck is the ASF board at all? How did it get elected? Not by the committers that's for sure. MT. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
> >> > >>What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? > >> +1... If you want reasons/opinions, I can offer them. :) -- === Jim Jagielski [|] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [|] http://www.jaguNET.com/ "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both and deserve neither" - T.Jefferson - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Mladen Turk wrote: -Original Message- From: Henri Gomez Hi to all, Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like ant last year. What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? -1 Why would we need that? Because we don't have any leverage on the ASF decisions right now, and this is quite bad. If we are not recignised already as a valuable part of ASF, why all the fuzz? Because we don't have the said recognition. Rémy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
> -Original Message- > From: Henri Gomez > > Hi to all, > > Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like > ant last year. > > What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? > -1 Why would we need that? If we are not recignised already as a valuable part of ASF, why all the fuzz? MT. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
I am curious to the scope the new TLP would have. For example, would/should the following projects come along to the new Tomcat TLP? - Taglibs - Watchdog - Slide - Other web server components based on java? -Tim Henri Gomez wrote: As many I see Tomcat as the ASF Java web-server, where Apache 2 is the native web-server, and httpd is also a TLP. Tomcat is both Java and Native, another reason to have it outside jakarta. Tomcat is a mature project, with a solid developpers community, and in fine Tomcat is an important project for ASF and should became a top project for many reasons, including having its own PMC. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Shapira, Yoav wrote: Hi, I read the original thread again. Some of Costin's objections are no longer relevant (e.g. Struts and log4j moving out of Jakarta). Some of the pro-community arguments (paraphrased as tomcat brings more visibility to other jakarta projects) I don't think change if tomcat is its own top-level project. So while I don't have any strong objections, I also don't have a strong pro reason to do it. For log4j I strongly agreed with the reasoning and was involved with the whole process: we want to do common stuff for logging services across languages, hence jakarta is not the ideal place and a TLP is. But tomcat is Java. The connectors aren't 100% java in some cases, but that's not enough to make tomcat leave jakarta. I think in the Ant and Struts cases, there is a correlation between project maturity and popularity and the migration from jakarta into a TLP. By that criteria I think tomcat can also make the move. This is of course subjective. Maven is strange, I agree with Costin's -1 vote on their becoming a TLP when they did. So after all that discussion, until I hear some articulate pro reasons, I'm 0 on the vote (absolute 0, not +0 or -0, if that's possible ;)). Tomcat has an important users base, may be less than Ant but probably more than Struts. As many I see Tomcat as the ASF Java web-server, where Apache 2 is the native web-server, and httpd is also a TLP. Tomcat is both Java and Native, another reason to have it outside jakarta. Tomcat is a mature project, with a solid developpers community, and in fine Tomcat is an important project for ASF and should became a top project for many reasons, including having its own PMC. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Hi, I read the original thread again. Some of Costin's objections are no longer relevant (e.g. Struts and log4j moving out of Jakarta). Some of the pro-community arguments (paraphrased as tomcat brings more visibility to other jakarta projects) I don't think change if tomcat is its own top-level project. So while I don't have any strong objections, I also don't have a strong pro reason to do it. For log4j I strongly agreed with the reasoning and was involved with the whole process: we want to do common stuff for logging services across languages, hence jakarta is not the ideal place and a TLP is. But tomcat is Java. The connectors aren't 100% java in some cases, but that's not enough to make tomcat leave jakarta. I think in the Ant and Struts cases, there is a correlation between project maturity and popularity and the migration from jakarta into a TLP. By that criteria I think tomcat can also make the move. This is of course subjective. Maven is strange, I agree with Costin's -1 vote on their becoming a TLP when they did. So after all that discussion, until I hear some articulate pro reasons, I'm 0 on the vote (absolute 0, not +0 or -0, if that's possible ;)). Yoav Shapira Millennium Research Informatics >-Original Message- >From: Tim Funk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:39 AM >To: Tomcat Developers List >Subject: Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project > >Can anyone list the pros and cons? > >The last time this was discussed it was -1. But it seems the reasons since >then may have changed. > >http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10473776922&r=1&w=2 > > >-Tim > >Henri Gomez wrote: > >> Hi to all, >> >> Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like ant >> last year. >> >> What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? >> > >- >To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This e-mail, including any attachments, is a confidential business communication, and may contain information that is confidential, proprietary and/or privileged. This e-mail is intended only for the individual(s) to whom it is addressed, and may not be saved, copied, printed, disclosed or used by anyone else. If you are not the(an) intended recipient, please immediately delete this e-mail from your computer system and notify the sender. Thank you. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Can anyone list the pros and cons? The last time this was discussed it was -1. But it seems the reasons since then may have changed. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10473776922&r=1&w=2 -Tim Henri Gomez wrote: Hi to all, Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like ant last year. What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
+1 At 03:05 AM 3/18/2004, you wrote: Remy Maucherat wrote: Henri Gomez wrote: Hi to all, Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like ant last year. What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? I was against it, but given the recent board decisions, I think we really need more leverage :( +1 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Remy Maucherat wrote: Henri Gomez wrote: Hi to all, Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like ant last year. What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? I was against it, but given the recent board decisions, I think we really need more leverage :( +1 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Tomcat as "top level" ASF Project
Henri Gomez wrote: Hi to all, Just see that Struts is becaming a top level project, like ant last year. What's your opinions on moving Tomcat as top level project ? I was against it, but given the recent board decisions, I think we really need more leverage :( Rémy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
