Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
stop-spinning wrote: Excellent John, so in summary, a good example of an async USB DAC is the MDAC, therefore with the well engineered MDAC, there is no need for an intermediate re-clocker (or any form of clock upgrade), simply because the MDAC is one example of a well implemented async USB DAC, is that right? Correct, A very well done async USB DAC should make clocking issues in the Touch irrelevant, but as I said nobody has actually tried to optimize the clock that drives the USB bus so we don't know for sure. Indications are that such a DAC is fairly immune to small jitter on the bits (which is what a clock change would affect), Many USB DACs DO seem to have some degree of susceptibility to gross packet timing differences (controlled by software settings), some to a fairly large degree and others to a much smaller degree, I don't have a MDAC so I can't tell you where it lies. But these are not hardware changes, they are purely software. When people talk about reclockers they are usually referring to boxes that take in a S/PDIF signal, run it through a good PLL, regenerate a S/PDIF stream with the clock from the PLL. This only works for S/PDIF. There are no reclockers for USB, there are some devices which perform isolation (but only for full speed, not high speed) and these actually ARE reclockers, but the internal clock is WAY WAY worse than anything you are going to find in a computer, they actually add a TON of jitter to the USB bus! John JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
NoRoDa wrote: Is SBGK getting results? How do you know that? Just 'cause he says so? He doesn't need a resolving system, why do we then? To find out if your system is more or less resolving, first try to find out if the differences are in your head or in the sound coming from your speakers ;) Regards well some people found that the changes TT3.0 implemented were detrimental to the sound, I think we can agree on that as you were latterly one of it's fiercest opponents. So if you agree that TT3.0 adversely affects the sound then surely you can agree that there are settings which could improve the sound. So I did some trial and error and investigation about how a linux computer should be set up and found that TT3.0 was trying to achieve the lowest latency possible. I took the view that the lowest latency is not relevant to the Touch (for me) and the TT3.0 settings were introducing noise to the process. My settings therefore concentrate on lower noise and produce a smoother sound, they also work with the EDO mods which people initially identified as harsh sounding. As far as I know RGRO, Magiccarpetride and Guidof use the settings to some good effect. SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
stop-spinning wrote: Its just a matter of suck it and see. I wouldn't personally use the EDO applet for hi-res files because I am not interest in that aspect - I would only use the EDO applet to make the most of Async USB in order to bypass the clocks in the SBT and use the clocks in a well implemented Async DAC (such as the MDAC, although I use the Goldenote DAC-7). I agree. My DAC is the Rega DAC, and that's why the EDO isn't interesting for me. The USB-input on the Rega is not as good as the S/PDIF. Regards NoRoDa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=49139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Audio Bling wrote: What amazes me about this thread (and others) is that people who have no direct experience will give an *opinion *about something with the character of complete authority.. In this case, folk who presumably have never heard an SBT with clock upgrade will say (with complete assurance) that it makes little or no improvement. I have both a modded (new clocks) unmodded SBT. *IMO,* the modded SBT is in another class. Regards, SBT (+EDO) EA OffRamp (S/PDIF) Audio Aero Capitole (DAC) .. @Audio Bling: You just assume that I don't have any direct experience. I have a lot of experience, but I don't see the need to prove that in this forum. People ask for advice, I give it and they can do with it whatever they want. Hofstede's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29832 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
stop-spinning wrote: Wow SBGK - I've been looking at your blog - and its very interesting. For those of you who have replied about not bothering with tweaks take a look at SBGK's blog! This guy is a masterful tweaker and is getting results. Of course you need a resolving system to appreciate the tweaks no doubt about it - but that's what an audiophile (I hate that word though - it sounds snooty) is all about - an audiophile is likely to have the appropriate loudspeakers and amplifier (and cables, and supports, and snake oil) to benefit from the tweaks. For those with a less resolving system - just leave the SBT well alone because you are unlikely to hear any upgrade/tweako differences. Is SBGK getting results? How do you know that? Just 'cause he says so? He doesn't need a resolving system, why do we then? To find out if your system is more or less resolving, first try to find out if the differences are in your head or in the sound coming from your speakers ;) Regards NoRoDa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=49139 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Excellent John, so in summary, a good example of an async USB DAC is the MDAC, therefore with the well engineered MDAC, there is no need for an intermediate re-clocker (or any form of clock upgrade), simply because the MDAC is one example of a well implemented async USB DAC, is that right? This is of course, with the most useful of all mods the SBT EDO applet set to USB out so we can all use the SBT direct into an async USB DAC. Sort of saves a bucket load of money knowing that you don't have to upgrade clocks or use any fancy expensive re-clockers when you can instead invest in the right asyn USB DAC to avoid all that extra hi-fi furniture. Food for thought for everyone don't you think? I know that async USB is not meant to be the be all and end all - but it certainly helps with a well implemented design to avoid all those intermediate ancillaries. stop-spinning's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43254 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Hofstede wrote: My 2 cents: All that talk about changing the clocks in the Touch is humbug. The Touch is fine as it is. Don't waste your money. garym wrote: Necessary? Certainly not. Useful as a high end mod? doubtful. What amazes me about this thread (and others) is that people who have no direct experience will give an *opinion *about something with the character of complete authority.. In this case, folk who presumably have never heard an SBT with clock upgrade will say (with complete assurance) that it makes little or no improvement. I have both a modded (new clocks) unmodded SBT. *IMO,* the modded SBT is in another class. Regards, SBT (+EDO) EA OffRamp (S/PDIF) Audio Aero Capitole (DAC) .. Audio Bling's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=47703 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Audio Bling wrote: What amazes me about this thread (and others) is that people who have no direct experience will give an *opinion *about something with the character of complete authority.. In this case, folk who presumably have never heard an SBT with clock upgrade will say (with complete assurance) that it makes little or no improvement. I have both a modded (new clocks) unmodded SBT. *IMO,* the modded SBT is in another class. Regards, SBT (+EDO) EA OffRamp (S/PDIF) Audio Aero Capitole (DAC) .. I didn't realize that I had to provide a CV along with my brief response. ;-) I have in fact heard modded touch players. So I stand by my response of not necessary and benefits being doubtful (in my opinion). But I'm pleased that your particular modded touch is better in your system. I'm sure not all modded Touch units are the same and I'm certainly of the opinion that things about the TOUCH can be improved upon, although many mods produce either no or marginal improvements over use of a TOUCH feeding a high quality DAC. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
garym wrote: I didn't realize that I had to provide a CV along with my brief response. ;-) I have in fact heard modded touch players. So I stand by my response of not necessary and benefits being doubtful (in my opinion). But I'm pleased that your particular modded touch is better in your system. I'm sure not all modded Touch units are the same and I'm certainly of the opinion that things about the TOUCH can be improved upon, although many mods produce either no or marginal improvements over use of a TOUCH feeding a high quality DAC. I do not ask for your CV but I think you should avoid making blanket statements.. I have a high quality DAC and the mods that I have applied to my SBT have been very beneficial, IMO. However, I am not suggesting that all mods will yield fruit.. But this is a long way from saying (as you seem to be saying) that most, if not all mods, are marginal or unnecessary. Let me spell this out: whereas I am saying that my experience is positive; you seem to be saying that your experience is negative *and therefore the general experience will be negative*. I think that is quite a leap to make.. Regards, Audio Bling's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=47703 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Audio Bling wrote: I do not ask for your CV but I think you should avoid making blanket statements.. I have a high quality DAC and the mods that I have applied to my SBT have been very beneficial, IMO. However, I am not suggesting that all mods will yield fruit.. But this is a long way from saying (as you seem to be saying) that most, if not all mods, are marginal or unnecessary. Let me spell this out: whereas I am saying that my experience is positive; you seem to be saying that your experience is negative *and therefore the general experience will be negative*. I think that is quite a leap to make.. Regards, I'm not saying that at all. I reported my opinion based on my experience (which for me (and me alone) suggests that the mods I've seen/heard are marginal relative to attaching a good DAC). You reported your opinion based on your experience. And I believe you. I think you're trying to be informative with your opinion, just as I was with my opinion. That is the beauty of user forums such as this. The readers of these threads can gather up lots of opinions, and then make their own decisions about their own choices/actions. I don't think anyone posts here hoping that they simply hear a single response from the optimum responder. The beauty of these forums is that crowd sourcing questions can lead to good information that helps people learn something. They've certainly helped me learn new things. Again, I'm actually quite pleased that you were able to post your info that was quite specific to the poster's question. That's the beauty of this forum and what makes it valuable. But neither your positive experience nor my negative experience is a definitive answer; they are just two data points. Neither of us has done a controlled double-blind experiment (well, at least I haven't on modded touches). But the OP at least now has some comments to think about. And it would be even better for the OP, if a dozen other folks post their response. More info is more likely to lead to some sort of answer (although not necessarily of course20 ill-informed responses are not as good as one informed response). And your response certainly falls into the well informed category. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Wow SBGK - I've been looking at your blog - and its very interesting. For those of you who have replied about not bothering with tweaks take a look at SBGK's blog! This guy is a masterful tweaker and is getting results. Of course you need a resolving system to appreciate the tweaks no doubt about it - but that's what an audiophile (I hate that word though - it sounds snooty) is all about - an audiophile is likely to have the appropriate loudspeakers and amplifier (and cables, and supports, and snake oil) to benefit from the tweaks. For those with a less resolving system - just leave the SBT well alone because you are unlikely to hear any upgrade/tweako differences. stop-spinning's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43254 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
In my opinion all those wonderfull tweaks of SBGK only work in his imagination. Not many people on this forum take him serious. Some claims he makes are just impossible. I have added him to my ignore list long ago. But if you want to try out and test his suggestions please feel free Hofstede's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29832 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
As one who has actually done a clock upgrade I can say that it DOES significantly improve the sound of the analog outs. By clock upgrade I mean replacing the two audio crystals that generate clocks that are used to derive the timing for the data going to the DAC chip and the S/PDIF outs (coax and optical). These clocks have nothing to do with the processor clock which is used for such things as ethernet and USB timing. The internal clocks are somewhere around 35-50 ps, the ones I replaced them with were in the 5ps range. I have some new sub one ps clocks (NOT cheap!) but I haven't gotten around to actually hooking those up yet. Whether this change is going to make a difference to an external S/PDIF input DAC is very dependent on the DAC, and the cable used between them. For some some it will make an improvement and for others it will not. (I don't think it will make anything sound worse!) S/PDIF connections are affected by so many different things that even for DACs that are sensitive to whats going on with the inputs it's essentially impossible to figure out in advance which one will make a difference in a particular setup. It should have NO difference to a USB DAC (of any flavor) since these clocks have nothing to do with with the timing on the USB bus. I don't know of ANYBODY that has tried tweaking the clocks that DO affect the timing on the USB bus. Getting USB DACs to work reliably with the Touch is such a recent occurrence that USB tweaking is very much in it's infancy. I am going to disagree with many around here who think that all USB async DACs are completely immune to anything happening on the computer as long as the data gets transfered correctly. I have tried several and this does not seem to be the case. The async USB method gives the POTENTIAL for high immunity from what's happening in the computer, but it turns out the details of the implementation still make a BIG difference. There are very few manufacturers that are spending the effort to really get it right. So is a clock upgrade a necessity? Certainly not. Will it improve things? For the analog outs, yes, for a S/PDIF DAC, maybe, for a USB DAC no. If you have a DAC for which an external reclocker makes a difference, will uprgading the clocks in the Touch do the same thing for less? Maybe. As mentioned before there is far more to a S/PDIF interface than just the jitter of the source, an external reclocker may be affecting one of those other aspects. For example the impedance of the output is just as important as the jitter of the signal, the official spec says outputs and inputs should be 75 ohms, but in reality the impedance of outputs, inputs and cables varies all over the place from 25 ohms to 120 or so. What matters is that they match as closely as possible. So if your DAC has an input of 90 ohms, it doesn't matter if the source has precisely 75 ohms, you will get better results if the source is closer to 90. I have actually seen a case where a reclocker sounded better, even though the jitter on the output was worse than on the input, BUT the output impedance more closely matched that of the input on the DAC. John S. JohnSwenson's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5974 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
A good upgrade to the Touch can be a decent DAC. The clock inside the Touch is not that bad. John Westlake (designer of the previous DacMagic DACs , the Audiolab M-DAC and other award winning gear) has tested the SBT and found that the clock is getting re-clocked inside the Touch. That is pretty amazing for a streamer at this price point. Re-clocking is something youd expect on high-end gear. So, dont worry about the Touch clock. In my main listening setup Im using the SBT with the M-DAC. The SBT is connected with optical SPDIF to the M-DAC. Works perfect and the sound quality is excellent. Pascal Hibon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7969 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Thanks Pascal - good to know. However with the MDAC you have the opportunity to try the EDO applet - you can alway try, then revert back to how it was if necessary. Who knows, the sound quality might go from 'excellent' to 'sublime'. stop-spinning's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=43254 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
stop-spinning wrote: I ask this because some are saying that putting a re-clocker (such as the so called excellent ones from Empirical Audio) make a huge improvement to the SQ of the Touch. This, to me, means that the clocks in the SBT are not of hi-end quality so an intermediary device such a high quality re-clocker needs to be installed to elevate the music performance for an audiophile when connected to an outboard DAC. If this is the case, is it not cheaper to just get the clocks upgraded inside the SBT (if necessary), because that Empirical Audio stuff is expensive (but might be worth it I guess). Other than that does Async USB mean you conveniently totally bypass the internal clocks altogether so don't need a helping hand in-between from Empirical and the likes (if you have a good async USB DAC like the MDAC?). Thanks everyone. to provide a bit of balance to those who are happy with the sound of the unmodded touch quality wise it seems to be EA overdrive EA offramp EDO mods + reclocker - I use mf vlink 192, some have reported great things using the berkely usb/spdif EDO mods + async usb dac I have clock upgrade in my touch, not sure if the EDO mods have killed off the benefit of that upgrade though. JohnSwenson has measured the touch clocks and thought that the clock upgrade was worthwhile very few dacs have the async usb designed for SQ rather than a convenient way of getting a signal into the dac which is why reclockers work, even the new nad M51 dac benefits from an external usb/spdif over the usb input. depends on your setup and requirements, for playback into a high resolving system you may notice a difference it is a fast moving area, but not too expensive to try out different things. SBGK's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=52003 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
My 2 cents: All that talk about changing the clocks in the Touch is humbug. The Touch is fine as it is. Don't waste your money. Hofstede's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29832 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
Necessary? Certainly not. Useful as a high end mod? doubtful. garym's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17325 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
Re: [SlimDevices: Touch] Upgrading the clocks in the SBT - is it necessary
stop-spinning wrote: I Other than that does Async USB mean you conveniently totally bypass the internal clocks altogether (if you have a good async USB DAC like the MDAC?). Thanks everyone. Thats the general idea with async usb . it was designed for use with computers as source in mind . Computers can have magnitudes worse performance than Touch especially laptops on thier spdiff ,if they even have spdiff or toslink ? And you get a separate soundcard that you use with music programs and don't have all those windows sounds etc . Touch performance is not that bad as digital transport Stereophile has some god measurements to show on it , it can of-course be improved on . It's on par with a decent CD-transport But given that and modern well designed dac's ability to copy with and reclock almost any source . You are most likely not able to hear the improvement . As with CD transport you don't need the most expensive $$$ high end transports to have good enogh performance so that the DAC can do it's thing and the outcome would be identical sound . Imo Touch is the source you need for 2ch music . IF you have one off the better USB only DAC's that out perform Touch's own DAC (this is not a given look in the EDO treads and see what people actually tries to use, you exemplified with the MDAC it migth be one of the DAC's up to it ) , you can use Triodes EDO app to be able to use USB . If you have a DAC with multiple inputs it would be a toss-up it entirely up to that DAC's design which input that actually performs best (what happens internally after the async-USB ? ) Also , it is naive to trust the tweoko industry it is not a given that a mod or add on product actually improves the situation at all , the clock may for example be better but the application in circuit is probably at least as important . A circuit as designed as a whole modding by sticking random audiophile components into it is not a good method if don't know the implications for the design . Imo to be able to mod a circuit you must understand it's design from the gound up , in practice be able design a similar circuit yourself then you know what you are doing otherwise not. Mnyb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4143 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=95573 ___ Touch mailing list Touch@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/touch
