Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
- Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 8:03 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT:Izzy, maybe you can help me out here, but it seems to me that your eyes would need to have been opened prior to this "born again" experience (that moment when you put your faith in Jesus Christ) or you never would have had the ability to even have thedesire to be receptive to the things of God. Do you understand what I'm saying and can you help me out here? Iz: Well, Bill, maybe it was kind of like when youmarried your wife. First you fell in love. And then you joined each other in matrimony. The marriage part is like when you got born again and became one. There was a precursor, but it wasn't consummated until you were one spirit so to speak. I was alive when I fell in love with my future bride. And I make no bones about it. You, on the other hand, in order to be consistent, would have to argue that you were dead when you fell in love with your future husband. H. I wonder what he saw in you :) BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one. (? Am I looking at the ontological me in the mirror, or at Izzys decaying physical body? Do people get cosmetic surgery for ontological bodies? Meanwhile my body gets a day older every day, and a day closer to the grave. But my spirit is renewed and growing every day. Thats why Ill be happy to trade in the old model of my body for a new/improved version!) Yeah, I hear you there. I do hope God doesn't want any brickin' done when I get to heaven though. And don't say he'll probably stick me in the furnace! :) I laid brick in Minnesota one winter, replacing burned-out walls inside oftaconite furnaces. If I stood in one place too long, my boots would start on fire. Too hot for me!! Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second one? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD -Original Message-From: Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill in Black - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death SNIP As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken.Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. O:P The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context.The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- in a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondenceto our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking aboutbeing born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is "born from above." Of course. However the term ?again? was used and should not be swept aside as irrelevant, either.It was used as a translation of John's word. Thequestion is, is it the besttranslation?It
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Good Morning Izzy :) I've been watching your interaction here with interest along with the hope that you will suceed in communicationg where I have failed but so far it does not look good. bt writes: You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. jt: Can you help me Izzy -How does one deal with being called a hypocrite and a liar on this public list continuously by a professing believer who is just plain wrong? If I have said this once, I must have said it at least 10 times. I have never ever read Augustine and nothing I believe is a doctrine from him. I study the scriptures and my belief concerning spiritual death is from my own personal study. After I experienced the New Birth in my own life I already understood experientially what before and after were like because I began to understand spiritual truth and in my own personal study I saw the death God warned Adam about in Genesis 2:17 where God told Adam that IN THE DAY he ate of a certain fruit HE WOULD SURELY DIE as spiritual death. bt: I had been accused of "touting" Barth and Torrance, and I was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. jt: This is not an accusation; Bill's doctrine has no clear scriptural foundation and he does quotethese theologians. bt: In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant." jt: Not only is his language "non-biblical" - his concepts are as well. The Bible is basically a spiritual book since God is a Spirit and the Bibleis His revelation of Himself to humanity. His servant Paul explicitly used the word I am accused of using constantly. He said "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one." (1 Corinthians 2:12-15) bt: The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there in Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. jt: Here he goes again. Calling me a liar and a hypocrite which is offensive - it would be to him if the shoe were on the other foot. Not only that he is wrong. Spiritual life and spiritual death are all over the Bible and if he is blind to this thenhe is a natural man. bt: On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on my end of the pool, 'cause I'm not the hypocrite on this one. jt: Let's see what the Bible says about interpretation. "For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God" Hence we do not "interpret" nor superimpose other concepts willy nilly - We receive understanding by way of the Spirit. Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent. judyt There are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Thanks for this Kevin, it is really interesting and proves the truth of there being"nothing new under the sun" It's the same old battle isn't it? "Hath God said?" "Hath God said?" And if folkdon't like what He said there is always some philosopher out there with some 50 million dollar words of man's wisdom who can straighten everything out and get the old unregenerated fallen creation to heaven as is Who needs to be born again? On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill? I think you are a bit confused, Izzy.It is not the term (since it haslong ago been shown here that objection to a "nonbiblical term" is inherently absurd) but the idea that matters. The objection is that the idea of spiritual death is not taught in the Bible. The non-occurrence in the Bible of an _expression_translatable as "spiritually dead",in view ofthe fact that the equivalents of both "spiritual" and "dead" occur quite frequently, is merely an interestingsupporting incidental. Please note, BTW, that I'm not the one making the objection or claim, I'm just pointing out the difference to you between a term and an idea. Wereally have to drop this whole"nonbiblical term" red herring. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? Yes.However,"from above" adds specific content that is not contained in "again", and it is that content which may be the focus of the passage. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent. I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, Benedict or Benedict Arnold, what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name Benedict, but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name Benedict has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, spiritual death along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of spiritual death the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. It could be that if somebody had stabbed his heart with a knife prior to his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed after he had sinned, he would have dropped dead right there on the spot. In other words, he became mortal immediately on that very day that he sinned. Now if on the other hand Adam died spiritually and if people are born spiritually dead and if his spiritual death is passed on through inheritance, there are many implications that such a model would have than if such were not true. Let's take just the situation of inheritance. I understand physical inhertiance pretty well, I think, having taught classes on genetics at the university. What I do not understand is spiritual inheritance, or whether spiritual inheritance even exists in the sense of being passed on from parent to offspring. My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual inheritance only as an authority issue, not as something passed on through the act of creating progeny. Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us and over our children. Therefore, they have an effect upon future generations, not because the children inherited some kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death from their parents, but because their parents authority over them has granted authority to evil spirits over their children. It is similar to how the children are sanctified by believing parents, not by some kind of transference in the
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
John says, in so many worfs, Jesus is wrong Terry Now, Terry is just making up stuff without giving a response to my objections. "Come on in -- its FREE -- but you can't stay in our FREE home unless you pay $750 a month after the first month...and never ever forget, it'sall FREE." Terry Either you are saved by works or you are not .. many on this forum try to have it both ways. jd -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:39:18 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I hear you loud and clear, Terry.From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netReply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:37:13 -0500Just found this note from you, Perry. I don't know where it has been for the last two days. To answer your question, I do not consider all of John's comments to be pitiful. What is pitiful is that Jesus says in so many words is that if you do not obey, you are not one of His, and John says, in so many worfs, Jesus is wrong. Obedience means nothing. Just have faith.Satan knows that Jesus is the Savior, but Satan's disobedience has eliminated him forever from Heaven. It is pitiful that John and many other libs cannot see that simple truth.Terry=Terry, can you take comment on these points one by one and let me know why you think each is pitiful. Thanks.PerryFrom: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netReply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:22:24 -0500Pitiful.===knpraise@aol.com wrote:To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: 1.. Such denies the unmeritorious gift of salvation by faith through grace and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God. 2. It does not allo w for failure -- we must obey all of the law (cf. #4) 3. It creates a system that is essentially the same as that of the Mosaic Covenant. 4. The blood of Christ, which replaced the continuing sacrifices of bulls and goats, is replaced by by repeated confession of sins --- the disciple being lost until confession is presented and repentance is evidences. 5. It denies that obedience extend from saving and vital faith -- demanding a soteriological value be attached to works, in and of themselves!!! 6. It pronounces that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !! 7. It denies the need for the exchange of faith for righteousness t;(Rom 4). JD -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:05:32 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14knpraise@aol.com wrote:Specifically (if you know), what is the point here? Who denies that we are blessed in following the advice of the Lord? Where, pray tell, is it said that we are not saved until and unless we accomplish this task? Where are those words? (Hint - they are not there). JD ===They may not be there in the words you have chosen to use, John, but they are there."Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I tell you?"Hint: Faith saves, but fruit is the proof of salvation. You produce fruit by doing as you are told by your Lord.. That is why He is called Lord. He is the guy in charge. We are His slaves. He orders, we obey. ; Put another way, if you do not do as He says, you are not His. It is important to understand that.Terry---"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to se nd an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, tha t you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's body, you must know Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If you don't believe me, check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe looks the same as she did 5 years ago!) :-) Bill Taylor wrote: Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Thanks Debbie. Thats what I was asking BT, because at one point his objection included that issue. Im sure he will get back to me on that. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:05 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term spiritual death Bill? I think you are a bit confused, Izzy.It is not the term (since it haslong ago been shown here that objection to a nonbiblical term is inherently absurd) but the idea that matters. The objection is that the idea of spiritual death is not taught in the Bible. The non-occurrence in the Bible of an _expression_translatable as spiritually dead,in view ofthe fact that the equivalents of both spiritual and dead occur quite frequently, is merely an interestingsupporting incidental. Please note, BTW, that I'm not the one making the objection or claim, I'm just pointing out the difference to you between a term and an idea. Wereally have to drop this wholenonbiblical term red herring. Debbie
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
No one has suggested that the Holy Spirit came from anywhere else but above. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Debbie Sawczak Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 6:07 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy responds: If you were born from below the first time, and bornfrom above the second time, wasn't the second time born again? Yes.However,from above adds specific content that is not contained in again, and it is that content which may be the focus of the passage. Debbie
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Linda: My computer froze up when I tried to respond to the post you wrote indicating your confusion overthe issue of "spiritual death." The words, themselves, are not the issue. I attach concepts to words. It is the concept of "spiritual death" that is in question. "Trinty" is a non-biblical word giving us a concept that appears to be biblical. Ditto for "perichoresis." This may not hold true for "spiritual death," a wording that seems to divide man into components that are capable of life in and of themselves, separate from the whole man. Such a doctrine may even deny the bodily resurrection. That is the issue. But don't answer my question. That's ok. JD
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
It has nothing to do with "liberal." There are millions of political liberals that are at least as spiritually orientedas you. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:07:55 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] Truly frightening. This is what happens in a nation where the majority are liberals. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:18 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] link.net http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45485
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a doctrine of man;and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term spiritual in front of death because you considered spiritual to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use nonbiblical terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a doctrine of man as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused oftouting Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the libs who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is non-biblical. Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant. The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with spiritual death; thatit is right there in Genesis.Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term spiritual death Bill?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Just goes to show that Jesus inside changes us on the outside. J (Plus I only post the good photos!) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Hansen Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:38 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's body, you must know Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If you don't believe me, check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe looks the same as she did 5 years ago!) :-) Bill Taylor wrote: Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill -- ~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain six email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Referring to "born again."-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:50:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second one? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD -Original Message-From: Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill in Black - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death SNIP As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken.Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. & lt; O:P The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context.The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- i n a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondenceto our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking aboutbeing born "from above"; hence his reply that it takes both a physical birth and a birth of the Spirit to be one who is "born from above." Of course. However the term ?again? was used and should not be swept aside as irrelevant, either.It was used as a translation of John's word. Thequestion is, is it the besttranslation?It is obvious that "again" will not work to translate the same wordin
RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
I could just as easily have used the word lost. Same difference. (Spiritually oriented aint the same as saved, JD.) iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:06 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] It has nothing to do with liberal. There are millions of political liberals that are at least as spiritually orientedas you. JD -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:07:55 -0500 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] Truly frightening. This is what happens in a nation where the majority are liberals. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Clifton Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:18 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] link.net http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45485
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Thank you for admitting that. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:11 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Referring to "born again."-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:50:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second one? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD -Original Message-From: Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill in Black - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death SNIP As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new andbiblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken.Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediatelife-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. lt; O:P The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context.The truth is, theNT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicariousregeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity,and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made newand rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- i n a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondenceto our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used alsoin John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as"from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
"from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
:-) JD-Original Message-From: Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:37:57 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's body, you must know Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If you don't believe me, check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe looks the same as she did 5 years ago!) :-) Bill Taylor wrote: Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing. Oh, well iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Wereally have to drop this whole"nonbiblical term" red herring. First step to becoming a Jehudi!Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill? I think you are a bit confused, Izzy.It is not the term (since it haslong ago been shown here that objection to a "nonbiblical term" is inherently absurd) but the idea that matters. The objection is that the idea of spiritual death is not taught in the Bible. The non-occurrence in the Bible of an _expression_translatable as "spiritually dead",in view ofthe fact that the equivalents of both "spiritual" and "dead" occur quite frequently, is merely an interestingsupporting incidental. Please note, BTW, that I'm not the one making the objection or claim, I'm just pointing out the difference to you between a term and an idea. Wereally have to drop this whole"nonbiblical term" red herring. Debbie Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
it is that content which may be the focus of the passage Why would anyone be persuaded by a uncertain sound? KJV Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Debbie Sawczak [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? Yes.However,"from above" adds specific content that is not contained in "again", and it is that content which may be the focus of the passage. Debbie__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Nice THEORY Where are the facts? You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy!David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent.I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically.I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another.Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture.The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine.From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. It could be that if somebody had stabbed his heart with a knife prior to his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed after he had sinned, he would have dropped dead right there on the spot. In other words, he became mortal immediately on that very day that he sinned.Now if on the other hand Adam died "spiritually" and if people are born spiritually dead and if his spiritual death is passed on through inheritance, there are many implications that such a model would have than if such were not true.Let's take just the situation of inheritance. I understand physical inhertiance pretty well, I think, having taught classes on genetics at the university. What I do not understand is spiritual inheritance, or whether spiritual inheritance even exists in the sense of being passed on from parent to offspring. My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual inheritance only as an authority issue, not as something passed on through the act of creating progeny. Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us and over our children. Therefore, they have an effect upon future generations, not because the children inherited some kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death from their parents, but because their parents authority over them has granted authority to evil spirits over their children. It is similar to how the children are sanctified by believing
[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of thatI will addressoffline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can knowwhat they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradictsscripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightlyjudged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raisedin the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was "born again" From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. jt: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not physically. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. jt: Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam and the creation were cursed at the same time and the curse is always implemented by the powers of darkness who only work death and destruction. They never bless. Actually biology responds to psychology and psychology responds to spirituality. It could be that if
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
There is scripture JD, Izzy may not have had time right now to find it. Jesus spells it out for us in John 3:31: "He who comes from above is above all; he wo is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all" So there you go .. If you are not born again of the Spirit you are earthly - a "natural man". On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:44:21 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Are you the Apostle of Lawlessness? Lawless: Not subject to law; unrestrained by law You preach The theology of "lawless grace" Have you power then to absolve all responsibility for your actions? Are we then to "sin that grace may abound"? Is the Law of God illegal in your eyes? A Christian has Liberty from Sin Death, not Liberty to be LAWLESS Antinomianism is Flawed 1 JN 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law 1 JN 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul" Ps 19:7 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John says, in so many worfs, Jesus is wrong Terry Now, Terry is just making up stuff without giving a response to my objections. "Come on in -- its FREE -- but you can't stay in our FREE home unless you pay $750 a month after the first month...and never ever forget, it'sall FREE." Terry Either you are saved by works or you are not .. many on this forum try to have it both ways. jd -Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke cpl2602@hotmail.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:39:18 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 I hear you loud and clear, Terry.From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netReply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 22:37:13 -0500Just found this note from you, Perry. I don't know where it has been for the last two days. To answer your question, I do not consider all of John's comments to be pitiful. What is pitiful is that Jesus says in so many words is that if you do not obey, you are not one of His, and John says, in so many worfs, Jesus is wrong. Obedience means nothing. Just have faith.Satan knows that Jesus is the Savior, but Satan's disobedience has eliminated him forever from Heaven. It is pitiful that John and many other libs cannot see that simple truth.Terry=Terry, can you take comment on these points one by one and let me know why you think each is pitiful. Thanks.PerryFrom: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netReply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:22:24 -0500Pitiful.===knpraise@aol.com wrote:To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: 1.. Such denies the unmeritorious gift of salvation by faith through grace and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God. 2. It does not allo w for failure -- we must obey all of the law (cf. #4) 3. It creates a system that is essentially the same as that of the Mosaic Covenant. 4. The blood of Christ, which replaced the continuing sacrifices of bulls and goats, is replaced by by repeated confession of sins --- the disciple being lost until confession is presented and repentance is evidences. 5. It denies that obedience extend from saving and vital faith -- demanding a soteriological value be attached to works, in and of themselves!!! 6. It pronounces that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !! 7. It denies the need for the exchange of faith for righteousness g t;(Rom 4). JD -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton wabbits1234@earthlink.netTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:05:32 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14knpraise@aol.com wrote:Specifically (if you know), what is the point here? Who denies that we are blessed in following the advice of the Lord? Where, pray tell, is it said that we are not saved until and unless we accomplish this task? Where are those words? (Hint - they are not there). JD ===They may not be there in the words you have chosen to use, John, but they are there."Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not the things that I tell you?"Hint: Faith saves, but fruit is the proof of salvation. You produce fruit by doing as you are told by your Lord.. That is why He is called Lord. He is the guy in charge. We are His slaves. He orders, we obey. ; Put another way, if you do not do as He says, you are not His. It is important to understand that.Terry---"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to se nd an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.--"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
Actually this is what happens when the Righteous ignore their duty to their neighbor, and themselves. We have abdicated our rightful positionsand handed them to the wicked. The enemy is more than willing to take positions of power in the government. And you wonder why things are headed the way they are. Come watch the Politicians tripping over themselves to be in the SODOMITE Parades across this nation. All the while turning a blind eye to the filth they are in the midst of. When I grew up they would have arrested people for half of what goes on in these parades. Now they are courting them. How does 3% of the population tell everyone else how to speak, act, and think?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has nothing to do with "liberal." There are millions of political liberals that are at least as spiritually orientedas you. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 21:07:55 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] Truly frightening. This is what happens in a nation where the majority are liberals. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry CliftonSent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:18 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible] link.net http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45485 Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Your last sentence is from outer space. iz It is from the TEXAS Translation, "God is our partner" HOWDY PARDNER! Maybe then we don't need an "appointment", after all? ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
And there are only ONE Set of MARBLESin this game, BUMMER!ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing. Oh, well iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, sincethis whole discussion got started because you objected to thoseof us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had beenaccused of"touting" Barth and Torrance, andI was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs --which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming insteadthat he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; thatit "is right there in Genesis."Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on myend of the pool, 'causeI'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don'tobject, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of thatI will addressoffline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can knowwhat they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradictsscripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightlyjudged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raisedin the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was "born again" From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. jt: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not physically. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. jt: Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam and the creation were cursed at the same time and the curse is always implemented by the powers of darkness who only work death and destruction. They never bless. Actually biology responds to
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Changed subjects should be reflected on the Subject line. Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
DM writes: My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual inheritance only as an authority issue, not as something passed on through the act of creating progeny. Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us and over our children. Therefore, they have an effect upon future generations, not because the children inherited some kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death from their parents, but because their parents authority over them has granted authority to evil spirits over their children. jt: David sins follow family trees, the characteristics of spirituality follow families. That is the sin and iniquity we are conceived in (Ps 51) and when ppl participate in the same sin that their ancestors did we see the movement of sin through the generations. This is called the old man or the carnal nature. When the first Adam died, his body went back to the dust and a kingdom transferred by its fallen nature to his seed. It is similar to how the children are sanctified by believing parents, not by some kind of transference in the birthing process, but by way of spiritual authority issues. The passages that shape my thinking on this are Exodus 20:5 Ezek. 18. In a nutshell, I believe that we inherit the basis for physical sin from our parents, but I do not see our spirits as being inherited from our parents, and therefore, I have trouble seeing any kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death being inherited from our parents. jt: Generational sin is a spiritual rather than a psychological issue and acting it out always follows unless the child dies in infancy. I believe in a concept of curses being passed on to future generations, but not in the same sense of inheritance as we find for physical inheritance. It is only through authority that parents give to evil spirits through their sin that allows curses to be passed on. How else do we understand the Lord's teaching in Ezekiel 18? jt: Ezekiel 18 is exhorting these ppl to repent and turn so that generational iniquity willl notbe their ruin. It has always been true that we are judged for our own transgression; Vs26,27 explain how when the wicked turn to righteousness or the righteous turn to wickedness each is judged/rewarded accordingly. Ezekiel 18:1-3 (1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,(2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. jt: These ppl were falsely accusing God. Ezekiel 18:19-20(19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. jt: Exactly - no problem there. We don't have to walk in the iniquity of our fathers but most of us do because of ignorance. For Israel it was walking in God's Law, statutes, and commandments. For us it is obeying the law of Christ. Either way involves removal of the other kingdom and renewing of the mind. judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Butwe know Kevin don't we that interpretation is not the same as "translation" On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Thanks Kevin! Every day is a learning experience. I had no idea that terrorism in the UK was just as rife in that day - or that Guy Fawkes was a good RC. One never knows what you will dig up, it's exciting !!! jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of thatI will addressoffline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can knowwhat they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradictsscripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightlyjudged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raisedin the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was "born again" From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. jt: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not physically. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:42:12 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IT is not FAITH IN SPITE of the FACTS. A true faith reflects REALITY! It is not like some LDS believe "God took away the plates and made it look like they were not real so we could have more faith" Blainerb It's what we are here for--to have our faith tested. Blessed are those who have seen and have believed, but more blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
A Mormon doctrine relating to the body and the spirit--check it out for what it is worth to you: (Jesus Christ speaking:) The spirit of truth is of God. I am the spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fullness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fullness of truth unless he keepeth His (the father's) commandments. He that keepeth His commandments receiveth truth and light and knoweth all things. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise, there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation, for Man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element inseparably connected receive a fullness of joy, and when separated, man cannot receive a fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God, even temples, and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple. DC 93:26-35 In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:50:14 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Youmay have something here -- I don't know .But thanks for your input. Jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:49:07 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:51:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). ?? JD Blainer: This seems a little confusing to me, w/o definitions in the first place as to what you mean by soul, spirit, mind, etc. I think I read you on what "body" means. :) That's a no-brainer. (Mormons believe a soul is the combo of spirit and body--just so you can see where I am coming from.)
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Interesting--where did you get your info? Blainer In a message dated 7/27/2005 7:00:40 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: FYI - The MormonChurch is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for bothgroups are nearly flat line.In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO).
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Blainer: What I hear you saying is that God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell because they did not get a chance to hear the truth and accept Jesus Christ, confess him with their mouths, then continue about their daily sinning, but with a renewed heart full of hope of going to heaven. :) "They worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:50:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so. Don't you just hate those Narrow Minded Christians? Who was it that said? Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved.He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrinethat all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog.
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Blainerb: Interesting Dave, thanks--I have copied a part of one of the below site addresses for the quick and easy perusal of TTr's: Here's the 2005 list of the largest U.S. denominations: 1. The Catholic Church - 67,259,768 2. Southern Baptist Convention - 16,439,603 3. The United Methodist Church - 8,251,175 4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - 5,503,192 5. The Church of God in Christ - 5,449, 875 6. National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc. - 5,000,000 7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - 4,984,925 8. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. - 3,500,000 9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - 3,241,309 10. Assemblies of God - 2,729,562 11. African Methodist Episcopal Church - 2,500,000 12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America - 2,500,000 13. Progressive National Baptist Convention - 2,500,000 14. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS) - 2,488,936 15. Episcopal Church - 2,320,221 16. Churches of Christ - 1,500,000 17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - 1,500,000 18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. - 1,500,000 19. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. - 1,433,075 20. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church - 1,432,795 21. United Church of Christ - 1,296,652 22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International - 1,200,000 23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ - 1,071,616 24. Jehovah's Witnesses - 1,041,030 25. The Orthodox Church in America - 1,000,000 Philip E. Jenks of the National Council of Churches contributed to this story. The 2005 Yearbook of American Canadian Churches can be ordered at www.electronicchurch.org/order/eorder. In a message dated 7/27/2005 10:54:49 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Your numbers seem a little low, John. How old are they? Here's one from 3 years ago that is a bit higher..http://www.religioscope.com/info/notes/2002_020_US_church_stat.htmAnd here is another that is from just a few months agohttp://news.ucc.org/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=72Itemid=54[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI - The MormonChurch is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for bothgroups are nearly flat line.In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO). JD
Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: WorldNetDaily Canada, the compatible]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It has nothing to do with "liberal." There are millions of political liberals that are at least as spiritually orientedas you. JD === Oh yeah? Well just name 18,324 of them. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
In a message dated 7/28/2005 12:06:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Sometimes you simply entice me too much, Kevin. As you know, I feel no need to feed the monster in you that wants to attack my beliefs. Hence, I've avoided responding to your posts for season. However, this one surely has me itching to respond. Wish somebody else were interested in what I'd like to say to in reply! Go ahead just this once Dave, I read all of your posts-- :) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
In a message dated 7/28/2005 12:11:43 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed -- it does appear that my source is somewhat off. And I paid $14.99 for the dern thing. I stand corrected JD Next time you have $14.95 to spend on a lousy book let me know and I will give you a list of better buys for your money. :) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Blainerb: Just trying to impress you, Perry, but I see we have failed. That being apparently true, I guess we might as well pack up our marbles and go home! (sob, sob) :) In a message dated 7/28/2005 8:01:52 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since size matters to some in determining the "trueness" of a church, we must consider that according to these numbers (in the US):1. The Catholic Church - 67,259,7682. Southern Baptist Convention - 16,439,603the Catholic church is 400% truer than the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Southern Baptist Convention is at least 300% truer than the mormons. That makes the RCC a whopping 1300% truer than the LDS! C'mon, guys, you have a long way to go to become the one true church! My point? Size, growth rate, number of members, number of stakes, wards, temples, missionaries, etc, has nothing to do with the truthfulness of the message taught by these man-made establishments. There is only one church, it belongs to Christ, and consists of people who belong to Him...not by tithing, attending "services" or "masses", peforming temple ordnances, learning secret handshakes, taking communion, being baptised, burning candles, buying indulgences, doing any "good" works, whatever that is, or jumping through any other number of hoops set up by men, either before or after we are "saved". We belong to him because we trust in Jesus Christ (the one revealed to us in the Holy Bible, not some false one) for the forgiveness of our sins and we "accept" the free gift that He has offered. We demonstrate this by doing his will. So, discuss size all you want. Size really doen't matter. What is in the heart of each individual is what matters. Do we truly love and trust Jesus Christ or do we not? Is this evidenced in our lives by our works, our doing his will?Perry
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
In a message dated 7/28/2005 8:26:40 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Satan comes as an angel of light deceiving with miracles also. Blainerb: I keep hearing this--but other than some obscure biblical passage suggesting it might be true, what other evidence is there that Satan does this sort of thing commonly. He must have done it a lot of times recently, changing his appearance each time, and having a buddy with him from time to time, since Joseph Smith saw not only God and his Son Jesus Christ standing together in a column of brilliant light, but he saw Moroni numerous times, who could enter into a house through the ceiling, and disappear the same way, he and Oliver Cowdery saw Moses, who committed to him the keys for the gathering of Israel, they saw Elijah, come to fulfill the prophecy in the last chapter of Malachi, they saw Elias, come to restore the keys to the gospel of Abraham, and prior to this but on the same day, they saw Jesus Christ in His glorystanding on a pavement of pure gold. All this, not to mention the appearance of John the Baptist when he restored the Aaronic Priesthood on the banks of the Susquehanna River, and Peter, James and John later when the Higher PH was restored. On that occasion, by the way, Satan did try to appear as an angel of light, but was detected by Michael, the archangel, and sent scurrying on his way. Wow!! That Satan is a real changeling! They should hire him for Star Wars movies. He could alternately pose as Luke Skywalker, Princess Leah, Yoda, Chubaka, and Darth Vader. :)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance). I wanted to say something similar but you didso better than I would have. The reality that we are powerfully influenced by "ambient" ideas, whether true ones or erroneous ones,is not acknowledged often enough.Thanks also for the reminderthat the merit of a a given idea does not depend on which other individuals have subscribed to it or who first enunciated it, or the biographicaldetails of such a person. Debbie - Original Message - From: "David Miller" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent. I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. It could be that if somebody had stabbed his heart with a knife prior to his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed after he had sinned, he would have dropped dead right there on the spot. In other words, he became mortal immediately on that very day that he sinned. Now if on the other hand Adam died "spiritually" and if people are born spiritually dead and if his spiritual death is passed on through inheritance, there are many implications that such a model would have than if such were not true. Let's take just the situation of inheritance. I understand physical inhertiance pretty well, I think, having
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Translation 101 Translation: ENGLISH to Spanish again de nuevo Changed words Againto arriba Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Butwe know Kevin don't we that interpretation is not the same as "translation" On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18) Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
A Jesuit attempt on King James' life was discovered when 36 barrels of gunpowder were found in the cellar of Westminster palace where King James was to speak in a few hours. Guy Fawkes and 3 other Roman Soldiers of fortune had taken an oath to assassinate the King. Their pledge was sealed with a solemn communion service, served by Jesuit priest, Father John Gerard, according to trial testimony later. These men were all found guilty and sentenced to death. (Final Authority, William Grady, (p189191) Real Audio of the book is here: see "Enter, The Jesuits" http://www.biblebelievers.com/Grady/Final_Authority.html The lesson and application for today's Biblebelieving pastor is all too clear. Any preacher who takes his stand for the King James Bible, versus all the other Alexandrian Egyptian text Bibles (NIV, NASB, NKJV) will also find 36 barrels of gunpowder under his feet, sooner or later! With this background, let us show why we believe the King James Bible is SUPERIOR to the newer Bible versions today! Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Kevin! Every day is a learning experience. I had no idea that terrorism in the UK was just as rife in that day - or that Guy Fawkes was a good RC. One never knows what you will dig up, it's exciting !!! jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote:Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on thisone and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of thatI will addressoffline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can knowwhat they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradictsscripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightlyjudged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raisedin the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was "born again"
Re: [TruthTalk] A 'prooftexter' vs a 'contexter'
Emotional reactions can not be resolved with FACTS and LOGIC! "I know the church is True" "I know the church is True" "I know the church is True" "I know the church is True".[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:42:12 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IT is not FAITH IN SPITE of the FACTS. A true faith reflects REALITY! It is not like some LDS believe "God took away the plates and made it look like they were not real so we could have more faith" Blainerb It's what we are here for--to have our faith tested. Blessed are those who have seen and have believed, but more blessed are those who have not seen yet have believed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Izzy asks Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I willaddress your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existencein the depravity of their fallen state. Implicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing. Oh, well iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man";and secondly that it wasinaccurate -- if what you areactually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT:Paul tells us that Christ re-gatheredall things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other dayin reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context.Yes, we sometimesusenon-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Thanks Blaine, that reminds me. LDS ETERNAL UNIVERSE, PROGRESSION is BIBLICALLY UNTENABLE Science tells us for every effect there is a cause. The God of the Bible is the Cause of ALL that exists The god of Mormonism comes out of what already existed, so what is the root cause? Ther God of the Bible can CREATE (He created the Universe ALL THINGS therein) Gen. 1:1; Is. 66:1-2; Ps. 33:6-9; Jn. 1:3; Acts 4:24; 17:24-25; Col. 1:17; Heb. 1:2 The god of the BoM just organizes and CHANGES what is already there! BoM postulates a Beginningless Creation ( Unscientific as all things wind down therefore the Universe can not be Eternal) ETERNAL PROGRESSION is PHILOSOPHICALLY UNTENABLE Christian philosopher J.P. Moreland points out that, an actual infinite is a timeless totality which neither increases nor decreases in the number of members it contains . On the other hand, a potential infinite increases its number through time by adding new numbers to the series. In order to be INFINITE there must be NO Beginning! SCIENTIFICALLY UNTENABLE The Second Law of Thermodynamics we know that the universe cannot be eternal; it could not have been dissipating forever. If it had been eternally dissipating, it would have run down long ago ..Working backwards, the [second law of thermodynamics] clearly points to a beginning. Fred Heeren, Show Me God: What the Message From Space is Telling Us About God (Wheeling, IL: Searchlight Publications, 1995) 103. (too bad lance is not around as this is nice reading) BIG BANG COSMOLOGY time itself must have a beginning. Steven Hawking ( space-time theorem of general relativity.)as quoted in Hugh Ross, Creator and the Cosmos (Colorado Springs: Navpress, 1995) 52. "The study of physics tells us that matter and time and space must all occur together: if there is no matter, there can be no space or time either Therefore, when God created the universe he also created time .Time, therefore does not have existence in itself, but, like the rest of creation, depends on Gods eternal being and power to keep it existing" Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1994) 169 The God of the Bible is the CREATOR CAUSE of that UNIVERSE TIME The god of the BoM is Held Bound by that Universe. Just one more FATAL problem with Mormon Theology Who came first God or man? Since God NEEDS tobe a man first to progress from, BUT the manNEEDS a God to ORGANIZE the elements into an Earth where he can progress How do LDSget around this FATAL FLAW? "There has always existed a boundless infinitude of space...Intermingled with this space there exist all the varieties of the elements, properties, or things of which intelligence takes cognizance; which elements or things taken altogether compose what is called the Universe...The elements of all these properties or things are eternal, uncreated, self-existing. Not one particle can be added to them by creative power. Neither can one particle be diminished or annihilated." Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology (Salt Lake City: George Q. Cannon Sons Co., 1891) 44. "The elements are eternal. That which has a beginning will surely have an end; take a ring, it is without beginning or end -- cut it for a beginning place and at the same time you will have an ending place" Richard C. Gilbraith, Scriptural Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Desert Book Co., 1993) 205. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A Mormon doctrine relating to the body and the spirit--check it out for what it is worth to you: (Jesus Christ speaking:) The spirit of truth is of God. I am the spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fullness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fullness of truth unless he keepeth His (the father's) commandments. He that keepeth His commandments receiveth truth and light and knoweth all things. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise, there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation, for Man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element inseparably connected receive a fullness of joy, and when separated, man cannot receive a fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God, even temples, and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple. DC 93:26-35 In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:50:14 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Youmay have something here -- I don't know .But thanks for your input. Jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell WRONG Framing the discussion with your evil thoughts, does not make them God's thoughts: 2 PT 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. AND HE BACKED IT UP WITH HIS OWN BLOOD! Acts 20:28 the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And remember you MUST be Born "Above" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: What I hear you saying is that God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell because they did not get a chance to hear the truth and accept Jesus Christ, confess him with their mouths, then continue about their daily sinning, but with a renewed heart full of hope of going to heaven. :) "They worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:50:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so. Don't you just hate those Narrow Minded Christians? Who was it that said? Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that hewants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved.He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrinethat all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so.The samepsychology was what led to Black slaves beingdefined as soulless, to Jews beingscapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
So using LDS "Logic" We see without a DOUBT the RCC "MUST BE THE ONE TRUE CHURCH"[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: Interesting Dave, thanks--I have copied a part of one of the below site addresses for the quick and easy perusal of TTr's: Here's the 2005 list of the largest U.S. denominations: 1. The Catholic Church - 67,259,768 2. Southern Baptist Convention - 16,439,603 3. The United Methodist Church - 8,251,175 4. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - 5,503,192 5. The Church of God in Christ - 5,449, 875 6. National Baptist Convention, U.S.A., Inc. - 5,000,000 7. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - 4,984,925 8. National Baptist Convention of America, Inc. - 3,500,000 9. Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) - 3,241,309 10. Assemblies of God - 2,729,562 11. African Methodist Episcopal Church - 2,500,000 12. National Missionary Baptist Convention of America - 2,500,000 13. Progressive National Baptist Convention - 2,500,000 14. The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS) - 2,488,936 15. Episcopal Church - 2,320,221 16. Churches of Christ - 1,500,000 17. Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America - 1,500,000 18. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World, Inc. - 1,500,000 19. American Baptist Churches in the U.S.A. - 1,433,075 20. The African Methodist Episcopal Zion Church - 1,432,795 21. United Church of Christ - 1,296,652 22. Baptist Bible Fellowship International - 1,200,000 23. Christian Churches and Churches of Christ - 1,071,616 24. Jehovah's Witnesses - 1,041,030 25. The Orthodox Church in America - 1,000,000 Philip E. Jenks of the National Council of Churches contributed to this story. The 2005 Yearbook of American Canadian Churches can be ordered at www.electronicchurch.org/order/eorder. In a message dated 7/27/2005 10:54:49 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Your numbers seem a little low, John. How old are they? Here's one from 3 years ago that is a bit higher..http://www.religioscope..com/info/notes/2002_020_US_church_stat.htmAnd here is another that is from just a few months agohttp://news.ucc.org/index.php?option=com_contenttask=viewid=72Itemid=54[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FYI - The MormonChurch is the 8t largest denom in the US with 2, 787,000 adherents. Churches of Christ in 9th with 2,503,000 members. Within the US, growth rates for bothgroups are nearly flat line.In foreign countries, however, Mormons have a very strong presence (somewhere around 11 to 13 million) will the Churches of Christ have only a few hundred thousands. I mention C of C because of the association this church has with the beginnings of the Mormon church (IMO). JD __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] The LDS Jesus needed to be saved!
Please do Why did the LDS Jesus need to be saved?[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/28/2005 12:06:59 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DAVEH: Sometimes you simply entice me too much, Kevin. As you know, I feel no need to feed the monster in you that wants to attack my beliefs. Hence, I've avoided responding to your posts for season. However, this one surely has me itching to respond. Wish somebody else were interested in what I'd like to say to in reply! Go ahead just this once Dave, I read all of your posts-- :) Blainerb__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
some obscure biblical passage See "Mormon Doctrine" it says under the heading - Angel of Light - "The Devil" So why does your Intro in the DC identify Moroni as an "angel of Light" or as Bruce says THE DEVIL? No response from you guys on this one? What do you mean OBSCURE? and maybe you should have said passage"S" EXODUS 7 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. HAVE YOU BEEN DELUDED? 2 Thes 2 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. MK 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. SINCE U ARE SO INTERESTED IN SIGNS I was wondering if you could tell us about the SIGNS of your APOSTLES? HOLY BIBLE: Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/28/2005 8:26:40 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Satan comes as an angel of light deceiving with miracles also. Blainerb: I keep hearing this--but other than some obscure biblical passage suggesting it might be true, what other evidence is there that Satan does this sort of thing commonly. He must have done it a lot of times recently, changing his appearance each time, and having a buddy with him from time to time, since Joseph Smith saw not only God and his Son Jesus Christ standing together in a column of brilliant light, but he saw Moroni numerous times, who could enter into a house through the ceiling, and disappear the same way, he and Oliver Cowdery saw Moses, who committed to him the keys for the gathering of Israel, they saw Elijah, come to fulfill the prophecy in the last chapter of Malachi, they saw Elias, come to restore the keys to the gospel of Abraham, and prior to this but on the same day, they saw Jesus Christ in His glorystanding on a pavement of pure gold. All this, not to mention the appearance of John the Baptist when he restored the Aaronic Priesthood on the banks of the Susquehanna River, and Peter, James and John later when the Higher PH was restored. On that occasion, by the way, Satan did try to appear as an angel of light, but was detected by Michael, the archangel, and sent scurrying on his way. Wow!! That Satan is a real changeling! They should hire him for Star Wars movies. He could alternately pose as Luke Skywalker, Princess Leah, Yoda, Chubaka, and Darth Vader. :) Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your spirit is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesnt count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you dont care if its a biblical or not as long as its a biblical concept, orizzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God. In the above, He who does the truth is complimented by ...they have been done in God. We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death from below is the alternative to from above--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this born from below in the text, or does this matter to you? The birth from above or new birth brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born from above to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses born from above rather than born again. JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born from below the first time, and bornfrom above the second time, wasn't the second time born again?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Excuse me but isn't it pantheism when God and the creation are one and the same? Our God is transcendent, that is, above and apart from the Creation. Only the New Creation (which is spiritual) is in Christ. jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:25:17 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL BODY beingcurrently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really! judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. It is not my opinion that matters here, Izzy. Please read the above and respond if you like. As for my opinion, I believed that everything is reconciled in Christ, but not everyone is willing to participate in that reconciliation -- the devil and bin Laden included. They and many others are refusing the reconciliation of God in Christ. The devil in particular will forever refuse that reconciliation (we have the end of the story as far as he is concerned). This however does not negate the fact that God has re-gathered in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him (see Eph 1.10). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yes, "Pantheism" means "allis God." That, however, is not what I am suggesting. As to your other comment, I will direct you to the post I sent to Izzy. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Excuse me but isn't it pantheism when God and the creation are one and the same? Our God is transcendent, that is, above and apart from the Creation. Only the New Creation (which is spiritual) is in Christ. jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:25:17 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus.It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about myPHYSICAL
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I fixed a typo. - Original Message - From: Bill Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. It is not my opinion that matters here, Izzy. Please read the above and respond if you like. As for my opinion, I believe that everything is reconciled in Christ, but not everyone is willing to participate in that reconciliation -- the devil and bin Laden included. They and many others are refusing the reconciliation of God in Christ. The devil in particular will forever refuse that reconciliation (we have the end of the story as far as he is concerned). This however does not negate the fact that God has re-gathered in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him (see Eph 1.10). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
John 3:21 says what it says and verse 31 does not contradict it. The question isthis: when is birth from above (verse 31) a reality in my (our) life. The Spirit, since the incarnation and the cross, is a part of who we are all of us. We can accept this gift or not but it is a part of our very ontology. "Born of the Spirit" is just that -- we proceed from the Spirit. It is there, within, and in our acceptance of this gift, we proceed to the kind of life God desires for us -- hence, we are born OF the Spirit. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:54:01 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death There is scripture JD, Izzy may not have had time right now to find it. Jesus spells it out for us in John 3:31: "He who comes from above is above all; he wo is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all" So there you go .. If you are not born again of the Spirit you are earthly - a "natural man". On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:44:21 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:23 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death.
I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.JD
jt: I can JD - Look at the "mystery of godliness" in the 2nd Adam (1 Timothy 3:16)
God was manifested in the flesh
Justified or vindicated in the spirit
Why if the death was physicalin the garden wasn't he justified in the flesh?
We are propagating the same error all over again.
You are saying that God didn't mean what He said when He told Adam
THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road.
Note:A day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations.
Is God likehuman parents who threaten but don't follow through?
It is always kind of humorous how you bob and weave through a discussion. I raise a question
about the Genesis text - you assert that there IS an answer to be found in Genesis ("I can JD") and then proceed to ignore the Genesis text altogether. You know full well that God can change His mind. When Adam heard " you shall Shirely die " there is no doubt that he thought of physical death. God simply changed His mind about this punishment. it's called grace !!!
jd: I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind.
Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such.
jt: When you are God you can do anything you want but why?
What evidence do you have that he changed his mind?
In Jeremiah 18:8 He only relents on condition that they repent.
You can establish rules for God's conduct all you want, Judy, but I will not buy any of it. The point is this: God can change His mind about anything. Jere 18 presents a specific change of mind. And God repented that he ever made man, in the days of Noah. God changes His mind and when He first promised punishment, this change of mind is a blessing of grace..
jd: Could you help me find the reference in the OT when
the writer finally got around to meaning something other than
the inclusive of physical death?
jt: AE lost fellowship with God when they sinned and both were
banished fromHisgarden - By Genesis 6:3 the gulf had gotten so
wide that God is saying "My Spirit shall notstrive with man forever
for he is flesh" and man's days were shortenedto 120yrs (they are
even less now).The statement "he is flesh" here does not mean
"he is a physical body"
In fact, it means that his whole existence centered around his fleshly nature, his body.
jd: Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day,
transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?"
jt: Yes, everyone will be raised on the last day, some to life eternal and
others to everlasting death.
jd: That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit.
jt:The object is for the soul to besaved from God'swrathJD which is against
all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and the redeemed will have a
transformed body; no guarantee that it is just like the one you have right now
The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus and when
he appears to John the beloved in the book of Revelation the one who once
leaned on his breast is terrified and falls on his face.
All of this might be true -- but what body is transformed? How earthly body. Why does God not allow the physical body to remain in the grave? BECAUSE MAN CAN LIVE (ETERNALLY) WITHOUT IT (transformed, transfigured or whatever)!! Our sould does not exist apart from our body.
jd: I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the
better I like it.
jt: Why? What's so great about the body you have now?
Remember when I said that if I were to share all the miracles and blessings God has provided me, you (all) would be jealous)? Well, my body is one of those blessings A magnificent declaration of God's creative powers!!!
judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him
I have another "C" --charis, my dear, charis.
JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
lol-Original Message-From: Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:49:15 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Butwe know Kevin don't we that interpretation is not the same as "translation" On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation,see the NWT!Bill Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.JD
Well.
That settles it then.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:23 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death.
I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.JD
jt: I can JD - Look at the "mystery of godliness" in the 2nd Adam (1 Timothy 3:16)
God was manifested in the flesh
Justified or vindicated in the spirit
Why if the death was physicalin the garden wasn't he justified in the flesh?
We are propagating the same error all over again.
You are saying that God didn't mean what He said when He told Adam
THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road.
Note:A day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations.
Is God likehuman parents who threaten but don't follow through?
It is always kind of humorous how you bob and weave through a discussion. I raise a question
about the Genesis text - you assert that there IS an answer to be found in Genesis ("I can JD") and then proceed to ignore the Genesis text altogether. You know full well that God can change His mind. When Adam heard " you shall Shirely die " there is no doubt that he thought of physical death. God simply changed His mind about this punishment. it's called grace !!!
jd: I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind.
Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such.
jt: When you are God you can do anything you want but why?
What evidence do you have that he changed his mind?
In Jeremiah 18:8 He only relents on condition that they repent.
You can establish rules for God's conduct all you want, Judy, but I will not buy any of it. The point is this: God can change His mind about anything. Jere 18 presents a specific change of mind. And God repented that he ever made man, in the days of Noah. God changes His mind and when He first promised punishment, this change of mind is a blessing of grace...
jd: Could you help me find the reference in the OT when
the writer finally got around to meaning something other than
the inclusive of physical death?
jt: AE lost fellowship with God when they sinned and both were
banished fromHisgarden - By Genesis 6:3 the gulf had gotten so
wide that God is saying "My Spirit shall notstrive with man forever
for he is flesh" and man's days were shortenedto 120yrs (they are
even less now).The statement "he is flesh" here does not mean
"he is a physical body"
In fact, it means that his whole existence centered around his fleshly nature, his body.
jd: Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day,
transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?"
jt: Yes, everyone will be raised on the last day, some to life eternal and
others to everlasting death.
jd: That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit.
jt:The object is for the soul to besaved from God'swrathJD which is against
all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and the redeemed will have a
transformed body; no guarantee that it is just like the one you have right now
The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus and when
he appears to John the beloved in the book of Revelation the one who once
leaned on his breast is terrified and falls on his face.
All of this might be true -- but what body is transformed? How earthly body. Why does God not allow the physical body to remain in the grave? BECAUSE MAN CAN LIVE (ETERNALLY) WITHOUT IT (transformed, transfigured or whatever)!! Our sould does not exist apart from our body.
jd: I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the
better I like it.
jt: Why? What's so great about the body you have now?
Remember when I said that if I were to share all the miracles and blessings God has provided me, you (all) would be jealous)? Well, my body is one of those blessings A magnificent declaration of God's creative powers!!!
judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him
I have another "C" --charis, my dear, charis.
JD
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
We had an enjoyable family discussion around the dinner table tonight about, among other things, how God is the source of everything that exists in the universe, and how He is the one who holds it all together by His word at every momentfrom the vastness of the universe to the quarks that make up the molecules. The more we learn about science, the more the word of God proves true. Certainly in Him all things consisteven your next breath depends upon His presence and grace. That doesnt, however, mean that all humans are in Christ, (which to me is the same thing as Christ in you.), just because they are present in His creation/universe. Neither are the slugs and spiders, simply because they are created and exist by His permission/will. To me in Christ is a whole different thing. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:46 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. It is not my opinion that matters here, Izzy. Please read the above and respond if you like. As for my opinion, I believed that everything is reconciled in Christ, but not everyone is willing to participate in that reconciliation -- the devil and bin Laden included. They and many others are refusing the reconciliation of God in Christ. The devil in particular will forever refuse that reconciliation (we have the end of the story as far as he is concerned). This however does not negate the fact that God has re-gathered in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him (see Eph 1.10). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your spirit is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is differentthanyou in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Izzy asks Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I willaddress your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call persons, and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existencein the depravity of their fallen state. Implicit in his use of the term dead is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth!
Thank you, Apparently I do need some help. Jd-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 14:11:30 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] LDS Church has ZERO Growth! In a message dated 7/28/2005 12:11:43 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Indeed -- it does appear that my source is somewhat off. And I paid $14.99 for the dern thing. I stand corrected JD Next time you have $14.95 to spend on a lousy book let me know and I will give you a list of better buys for your money. :) Blainerb
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, itbecomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "bornfrom above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
This bears repeating -- so here it is again -- let it sink in. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:06:31 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14 by contrast, G-m's apply(theoretical) obedience training, manipulating a dog to a certain behavior, to the subjects of NT because they never volunteered to love Love.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 19:00:38 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ..volunteeringto loveLove, like the Ap John does,to lovehim who volunteers to love me perpetually, unconditionally, isthe normal modern response to the NT it's rooted in(his) healing.. On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:40:57 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness.But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin.No one who lives in him keeps on sinning.1 John 3 acc to the Ap john, JC voluntarily removessin--all of it, perpetually i volunteer tolove them guys mycommittmentto them has nothin' to do with the superficial results of involuntary compliance the truth isthatJCscommand no one can keep--heal! -- is saving me i believe this healing is not conditioned on obedience and, since God himself, whocan't bemanipulated to heal,heals voluntarily, perpetually, (then) allobedience training is a farce.. On Wed, 27 Jul 2005 15:41:15 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: for humans biblicalsalvation is purely voluntary, like the Alamo--you wannadefend the KoG in history withJC, crosshis line in the sand this is obedience to him--salvation (via 'a crucifixion')you volunteer for is just that,voluntary who, then,as a volunteer, has any right to compel the involuntary religious obedience of another? while the G-m's (God-manipulators)among usdo exactly that requiring y/ourcompliance by a certainforce, ask 'compliance? to whom?' i'd say theseG-m typesnever volunteered for nothin' worth volunteerin' for and that's theirrealproblem; FTR,neither God's nor mine On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 21:32:32 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: To argue that salvation is free but after the initial event, we must obey to maintain this salvation is wrong on several levels: || 6. [re: pronouncing] 'that what God could not do for man, man must do for himself !!' ||
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already" -- kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. Jd-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:23:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Izzy asks Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I willaddress your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others.I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existencein the depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I prefer "you're right again, John" to "that settlesit," but I will take what I can get.
Jed-Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:15:00 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.JD
Well.
That settles it then.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:23 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death.
I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement.JD
jt: I can JD - Look at the "mystery of godliness" in the 2nd Adam (1 Timothy 3:16)
God was manifested in the flesh
Justified or vindicated in the spirit
Why if the death was physicalin the garden wasn't he justified in the flesh?
We are propagating the same error all over again.
You are saying that God didn't mean what He said when He told Adam
THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road.
Note:A day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations.
Is God likehuman parents who threaten but don't follow through?
It is always kind of humorous how you bob and weave through a discussion. I raise a question
about the Genesis text - you assert that there IS an answer to be found in Genesis ("I can JD") and then proceed to ignore the Genesis text altogether. You know full well that God can change His mind. When Adam heard " you shall Shirely die " there is no doubt that he thought of physical death. God simply changed His mind about this punishment. it's called grace !!!
jd: I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind.
Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such.
jt: When you are God you can do anything you want but why?
What evidence do you have that he changed his mind?
In Jeremiah 18:8 He only relents on condition that they repent.
You can establish rules for God's conduct all you want, Judy, but I will not buy any of it. The point is this: God can change His mind about anything. Jere 18 presents a specific change of mind. And God repented that he ever made man, in the days of Noah. God changes His mind and when He first promised punishment, this change of mind is a blessing of grace
jd: Could you help me find the reference in the OT when
the writer finally got around to meaning something other than
the inclusive of physical death?
jt: AE lost fellowship with God when they sinned and both were
banished fromHisgarden - By Genesis 6:3 the gulf had gotten so
wide that God is saying "My Spirit shall notstrive with man forever
for he is flesh" and man's days were shortenedto 120yrs (they are
even less now).The statement "he is flesh" here does not mean
"he is a physical body"
In fact, it means that his whole existence centered around his fleshly nature, his body.
jd: Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day,
transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?"
jt: Yes, everyone will be raised on the last day, some to life eternal and
others to everlasting death.
jd: That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit.
jt:The object is for the soul to besaved from God'swrathJD which is against
all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and the redeemed will have a
transformed body; no guarantee that it is just like the one you have right now
The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus and when
he appears to John the beloved in the book of Revelation the one who once
leaned on his breast is terrified and falls on his face.
All of this might be true -- but what body is transformed? How earthly body. Why does God not allow the physical body to remain in the grave? BECAUSE MAN CAN LIVE (ETERNALLY) WITHOUT IT (transformed, transfigured or whatever)!! Our sould does not exist apart from our body.
jd: I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the
better I like it.
jt: Why? What's so great about the body you have now?
Remember when I said that if I were to share all the miracles and blessings God has provided me, you (all) would be jealous)? Well, my body is one of those blessings A magnificent declaration of God's creative powers!!!
judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him
I have another "C" --charis, my dear, charis.
JD
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