Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
the observation extends to who has influenced her more, e.g., Calvin or Pavlov? || On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:42:33 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: You. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death So Debbie do you believe ppl are led about by an unconscious or subconscious mind or something like that to which Augustine, Calvin and the enlightenment have heavy input? What proof do you have for this? jt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:11:55 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: By "not big", do you mean their names were not much mentioned, and they weren't much quoted? That has little to do with it. The biggest influences are quite often not known by name and not consciously recognized. Debbie From: Judy Taylor I'll accept Satan and the flesh David but - Augustine and Calvin were not big in Australia when I was growing up. Not in the circles I moved in anyway. Maybe you could explain how and in what ways they have influenced society Otherwise to me this is just the reverse of Lance telling us we can't know anything because of the enlightenment Well it has about the same effect anyway. judyt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:52:56 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, you misunderstand. The BIGGEST influence in your life is the Spirit of God. I never meant to list influences to the exclusion of him. All of us have been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, our flesh, Satan, etc. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That takes care of the flesh and of Satan. Besides, which of us have not been influenced to eat, or to marry and reproduce, or to do something wrong? As for Augustine and Calvin, one only need study history and philosophy to realize their impact on the world, and if we are in the world, then they have influenced us in some way. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Cute. On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:42:33 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: You. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death So Debbie do you believe ppl are led about by an unconscious or subconscious mind or something like that to which Augustine, Calvin and the enlightenment have heavy input? What proof do you have for this? jt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:11:55 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: By "not big", do you mean their names were not much mentioned, and they weren't much quoted? That has little to do with it. The biggest influences are quite often not known by name and not consciously recognized. Debbie From: Judy Taylor I'll accept Satan and the flesh David but - Augustine and Calvin were not big in Australia when I was growing up. Not in the circles I moved in anyway. Maybe you could explain how and in what ways they have influenced society Otherwise to me this is just the reverse of Lance telling us we can't know anything because of the enlightenment Well it has about the same effect anyway. judyt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:52:56 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, you misunderstand. The BIGGEST influence in your life is the Spirit of God. I never meant to list influences to the exclusion of him. All of us have been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, our flesh, Satan, etc. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That takes care of the flesh and of Satan. Besides, which of us have not been influenced to eat, or to marry and reproduce, or to do something wrong? As for Augustine and Calvin, one only need study history and philosophy to realize their impact on the world, and if we are in the world, then they have influenced us in some way. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
You. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:19 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death So Debbie do you believe ppl are led about by an unconscious or subconscious mind or something like that to which Augustine, Calvin and the enlightenment have heavy input? What proof do you have for this? jt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:11:55 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: By "not big", do you mean their names were not much mentioned, and they weren't much quoted? That has little to do with it. The biggest influences are quite often not known by name and not consciously recognized. Debbie From: Judy Taylor I'll accept Satan and the flesh David but - Augustine and Calvin were not big in Australia when I was growing up. Not in the circles I moved in anyway. Maybe you could explain how and in what ways they have influenced society Otherwise to me this is just the reverse of Lance telling us we can't know anything because of the enlightenment Well it has about the same effect anyway. judyt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:52:56 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, you misunderstand. The BIGGEST influence in your life is the Spirit of God. I never meant to list influences to the exclusion of him. All of us have been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, our flesh, Satan, etc. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That takes care of the flesh and of Satan. Besides, which of us have not been influenced to eat, or to marry and reproduce, or to do something wrong? As for Augustine and Calvin, one only need study history and philosophy to realize their impact on the world, and if we are in the world, then they have influenced us in some way. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
So Debbie do you believe ppl are led about by an unconscious or subconscious mind or something like that to which Augustine, Calvin and the enlightenment have heavy input? What proof do you have for this? jt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 19:11:55 -0400 "Debbie Sawczak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: By "not big", do you mean their names were not much mentioned, and they weren't much quoted? That has little to do with it. The biggest influences are quite often not known by name and not consciously recognized. Debbie From: Judy Taylor I'll accept Satan and the flesh David but - Augustine and Calvin were not big in Australia when I was growing up. Not in the circles I moved in anyway. Maybe you could explain how and in what ways they have influenced society Otherwise to me this is just the reverse of Lance telling us we can't know anything because of the enlightenment Well it has about the same effect anyway. judyt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:52:56 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, you misunderstand. The BIGGEST influence in your life is the Spirit of God. I never meant to list influences to the exclusion of him. All of us have been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, our flesh, Satan, etc. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That takes care of the flesh and of Satan. Besides, which of us have not been influenced to eat, or to marry and reproduce, or to do something wrong? As for Augustine and Calvin, one only need study history and philosophy to realize their impact on the world, and if we are in the world, then they have influenced us in some way. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
By "not big", do you mean their names were not much mentioned, and they weren't much quoted? That has little to do with it. The biggest influences are quite often not known by name and not consciously recognized. Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 7:05 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death I'll accept Satan and the flesh David but - Augustine and Calvin were not big in Australia when I was growing up. Not in the circles I moved in anyway. Maybe you could explain how and in what ways they have influenced society Otherwise to me this is just the reverse of Lance telling us we can't know anything because of the enlightenment Well it has about the same effect anyway. judyt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:52:56 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, you misunderstand. The BIGGEST influence in your life is the Spirit of God. I never meant to list influences to the exclusion of him. All of us have been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, our flesh, Satan, etc. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That takes care of the flesh and of Satan. Besides, which of us have not been influenced to eat, or to marry and reproduce, or to do something wrong? As for Augustine and Calvin, one only need study history and philosophy to realize their impact on the world, and if we are in the world, then they have influenced us in some way. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
I'll accept Satan and the flesh David but - Augustine and Calvin were not big in Australia when I was growing up. Not in the circles I moved in anyway. Maybe you could explain how and in what ways they have influenced society Otherwise to me this is just the reverse of Lance telling us we can't know anything because of the enlightenment Well it has about the same effect anyway. judyt On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 17:52:56 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Judy, you misunderstand. The BIGGEST influence in your life is the Spirit of God. I never meant to list influences to the exclusion of him. All of us have been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, our flesh, Satan, etc. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That takes care of the flesh and of Satan. Besides, which of us have not been influenced to eat, or to marry and reproduce, or to do something wrong? As for Augustine and Calvin, one only need study history and philosophy to realize their impact on the world, and if we are in the world, then they have influenced us in some way. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Judy, you misunderstand. The BIGGEST influence in your life is the Spirit of God. I never meant to list influences to the exclusion of him. All of us have been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, our flesh, Satan, etc. The Bible teaches us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. That takes care of the flesh and of Satan. Besides, which of us have not been influenced to eat, or to marry and reproduce, or to do something wrong? As for Augustine and Calvin, one only need study history and philosophy to realize their impact on the world, and if we are in the world, then they have influenced us in some way. Peace be with you.David Miller. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yes, but His throne doesn’t. J iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:06 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death why would He make that particular relatively tiny spot His dwelling place DAVEH: Izzydo you believe the Lord dwells in you? ShieldsFamily wrote: Blaine, Don’t you think that since God created the stars that we observe, He dwells outside of that realm? The Milky Way is but a speck of dust in our universe—why would He make that particular relatively tiny spot His dwelling place IYHO? iz -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
why would He make that particular relatively tiny spot His dwelling place DAVEH: Izzydo you believe the Lord dwells in you? ShieldsFamily wrote: Blaine, Don’t you think that since God created the stars that we observe, He dwells outside of that realm? The Milky Way is but a speck of dust in our universe—why would He make that particular relatively tiny spot His dwelling place IYHO? iz -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Bill wrote > Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. Izzy responds > In other words, I stumped you, huh? J BT > No. It was one of those have-you-stopped-cheating-on-your-husband questions -- yes-or-no. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Izzy asks > Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existence in the depravity of their fallen state. Implicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yeah, I know it is. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:23 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death We had an enjoyable family discussion around the dinner table tonight about, among other things, how God is the source of everything that exists in the universe, and how He is the one who holds it all together by His word at every momentfrom the vastness of the universe to the quarks that make up the molecules. The more we learn about science, the more the word of God proves true. Certainly in Him all things consisteven your next breath depends upon His presence and grace. That doesnt, however, mean that all humans are in Christ, (which to me is the same thing as Christ in you.), just because they are present in His creation/universe. Neither are the slugs and spiders, simply because they are created and exist by His permission/will. To me in Christ is a whole different thing. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:46 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. It is not my opinion that matters here, Izzy. Please read the above and respond if you like. As for my opinion, I believed that everything is reconciled in Christ, but not everyone is willing to participate in that reconciliation -- the devil and bin Laden included. They and many others are refusing the reconciliation of God in Christ. The devil in particular will forever refuse that reconciliation (we have the end of the story as far as he is concerned). This however does not negate the fact that God has re-gathered in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him (see Eph 1.10). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
You offer 5 scriptures proving me wrong, no doubt. My problem is this: none of them say -- "you must be born again in order to be saved." Such implies that I must do something other than accept the gift already given!! "Acceptance" needs to be discussed, as well, but let's just deal with one matter at a time. Hopefully, this will keep us from getting too confused. JD They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. What? Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit... 1 PETER 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 JN 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 JN 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 JN 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. JN 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 01:10:55 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:John wrote:> ... there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. > The three cannot be separated and survive. jt: The above are only two JD - mind and spirit - and this is the doctrine of the "mind-science" people. The Bible does not teach this. God says we are triune ie: Spirit, soul, and body - I don't understand why this makes no difference to some. And yes they can be separated and are at death. The rich man who was in Hades had body consciousness, he felt flames, was hot, thirsty and unhappy while his physical body in actuality was turning to dust. He was a spiritual body. DM: Even if this were true, this does not mean that we cannot talk about what each part contributes. When talking about the physical body, I can talk about different organs and tissues, whether they be the heart, the lungs, the stomach, the brain, the muscles, the skin, etc. Being reductionistic is not a sin and it is not improper even if the body cannot exist without all parts connected and functioning together. John wrote:> THAT is why the physical body will be raised ---> because there is no life for man apart from the three and> no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and \> that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), jt: This exact decaying physical body will not go to heaven JD; those who are judged worthy of eternal life will receive a transformed body. These bodies are raised for the purpose of judgment. The state of mind is described as either carnal or spiritual, but this does not mean that there is not a real flesh and a real spirit that is being talked about. You cannot use the context of Romans 8 to deny the reality of the physical body or to deny the reality of the spirit. John wrote:> You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in> and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught> in scripture at all, which is not fine. Sorry, but the dualism is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. I don't have time to write a book for you right now showing it everywhere. If you are interested, ask, and I will post passages as I have time. You can start with the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground, and what it took to make him alive. John wrote:> Many argue that man is given choices in life that> are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." Right. This is the state of mind that you referenced in Romans 8. Men can mind things that are spiritual or mind things that are not spiritual (carnal). John wrote:> ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot> be separated from such. Wrong, John. Read Romans 8:5 again. "They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit." Some choices are spiritual (motivated by the spirit) and some choices are carnal (motivated by the flesh). John wrote:> As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with> this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long> as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an> autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and> soul living together until judgment day. We are one being,> ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this> or teaches other wise. Scripture certainly does teach dualism. Please do not be so ignorant. Have you not read in Revelation 6, how the souls of those who were slain were under the altar of God, asking how long they would wait for the judgment? These were conscious souls under the altar of God in heaven? Where were their bodies? In the ground on earth. And have you not read Luke 16, how when Lazarus died, the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, but the rich man found himself in hell? Where was the rich man's body? Jesus says his body was buried. If you are going to rebuke anyone for teaching dualism, you had better start with rebuking Jesus. Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Just because I go there does not mean I embrace Calvinism. I used to go to a FHS to do genealogy but that didn't make me Mormon - Sweet ppl in both places. And no JD Calvinism is NOT part of my "so called" theology any more than Augustinianism. You may not think Calvinism evil. I do. It is blasphemous to make God responsible for mankinds sin and then teach that he judges them for what He chose not to prevent when he could have with His "irresistable grace" - that and every evil that ever was because of a perverse view of His Sovereignty. As for DM, I don't know he is a mystery. jt On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 00:42:50 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Well, maybe this is part of the 90% between DM and myself but -- Judy, my dear, Calvanism is a definite part of your theology. Presbyterianism is Calvanism institutionalized. i do not think this is evil -- but it is true. When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true? JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:23:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18) judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
JS also said there were men living on the Moon. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:54:02 EDT Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky was. (If I said he did, would you argue the point? :>). However, he once pointed up into the night sky towards the constellation Sagittarius, and said, "God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO. Blainerb In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thamas had a conversation with Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without ceasing." If you think pryaer is talking -- you are lost on this one. Prayer is much more a communion with God than is talking to Him. JD -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
DM -- you should work to remove your own ignorance before continuing this discussion. I will wait until this ignorance (of yours) has been left behind. JD -Original Message-From: David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 13:23:29 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death John wrote: > ... there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. > He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. > The three cannot be separated and survive. Even if this were true, this does not mean that we cannot talk about what each part contributes. When talking about the physical body, I can talk about different organs and tissues, whether they be the heart, the lungs, the stomach, the brain, the muscles, the skin, etc. Being reductionistic is not a sin and it is not improper even if the body cannot exist without all parts connected and functioning together. John wrote: > THAT is why the physical body will be raised --- > because there is no life for man apart from the three and > no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and \ > that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), The state of mind is described as either carnal or spiritual, but this does not mean that there is not a real flesh and a real spirit that is being talked about. You cannot use the context of Romans 8 to deny the reality of the physical body or to deny the reality of the spirit. John wrote: > You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in > and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught > in scripture at all, which is not fine. Sorry, but the dualism is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. I don't have time to write a book for you right now showing it everywhere. If you are interested, ask, and I will post passages as I have time. You can start with the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground, and what it took to make him alive. John wrote: > Many argue that man is given choices in life that > are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." Right. This is the state of mind that you referenced in Romans 8. Men can mind things that are spiritual or mind things that are not spiritual (carnal). John wrote: > ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot > be separated from such. Wrong, John. Read Romans 8:5 again. "They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit." Some choices are spiritual (motivated by the spirit) and some choices are carnal (motivated by the flesh). John wrote: > As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with > this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long > as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an > autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and > soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, > ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this > or teaches other wise. Scripture certainly does teach dualism. Please do not be so ignorant. Have you not read in Revelation 6, how the souls of those who were slain were under the altar of God, asking how long they would wait for the judgment? These were conscious souls under the altar of God in heaven? Where were their bodies? In the ground on earth. And have you not read Luke 16, how when Lazarus died, the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, but the rich man found himself in hell? Where was the rich man's body? Jesus says his body was buried. If you are going to rebuke anyone for teaching dualism, you had better start with rebuking Jesus. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true? This has got to be a FIRST JD agrees with DM? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, maybe this is part of the 90% between DM and myself but -- Judy, my dear, Calvanism is a definite part of your theology. Presbyterianism is Calvanism institutionalized. i do not think this is evil -- but it is true. When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true? JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:23:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Well, maybe this is part of the 90% between DM and myself but -- Judy, my dear, Calvanism is a definite part of your theology. Presbyterianism is Calvanism institutionalized. i do not think this is evil -- but it is true. When DM speaks of "truism," in your case, how could this not be true? JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 20:23:13 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <openairmission@yahoo.com> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
LDS god lives near Kolob JW god lives on Alcyone Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the FATHER of both (Jehovahs Witness & Mormon ) Religions ( and all others ) had something to do with a star. 2 Corinthians 11:14 "And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." In his early days, Brooke F. Westcott, took on the study of Mormonism and he studied the book of Mormon. And remember in Mormon belief, Jesus and Satan were brothers. Both presented their salvation plans to God the Father and God chose the one presented by Jesus. The influence of Hort and Westcott is still very heavy upon modern theologians and bible translators. So it would follow that if Westcott believed Mormonism, then some of that belief would have trickled down through the false seminaries and into the belief systems of translators. "He took a strange interest in Mormonism . . procuring and studying the Book of Mormon." Westcott, Vol. 1, p. 19. Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? IS 14:12-13 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground...For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: Occult Parallels: The Babylonians believed that the planet Venus, when it appeared as a star in the morning, literally was Helel, the son of Shahar, and grandson of El. They worshipped Helel the morning star and considered him one of the more important gods. "For the Maya the importance of Venus, above all planets, cannot be overstated. It was called noh ek (great star), chac ek (red star), sastal ek (bright star), and xux ek (wasp star). We recall some of the statements the early chroniclers made about the Indians' propensity for watching it. Mexican friar Motolinia tells us that 'next to the sun they adored and made more sacrifices to this star than to any other celestial and terrestrial creature' (Nuttall, 1904, p. 498) and 'they knew on what day it would appear again in the east after it had lost itself or disappeared in the west . . . ; they counted the days by this star and yielded reverence and offered sacrifices to it.' " (Anthony F. Aveni, Skywatchers of Ancient Mexico. Univ. of Texas Press, Austin p. 184) In Mesopotamia the cuneiform sign for god was a star The god of Bahá'í : Thou beholdest, O my God, the Day-Star... http://www.bahaiprayers.org/prison4.htm Bahá'ís believe in one God who communicates with his creatures by means of messengers SUMERIAN HELIACAL STAR RISINGS: Son of god #1 is Star ALAGAR (first sprouts of Spring) Aries (ß-Arietis) is the heliacal rising star at the Spring Equinox in 3800 B.C. http://www.lexiline.com/lexiline/lexi32.htm In GREEK MYTHOLOGY, EOSPHOROS was the STAR-GOD of astron planetos (wandering star) Aphrodision, the Planet Venus. Also GOD OF THE MORNING STAR. He was known as Eosphoros (the Dawn Bringer) , being the last star to shining in the dawn sky, and as Hesperos (of the Evening) as the first to appear in the evening. The Translation of Eosphoros is LIGHT BEARER or BRINGER! "Sons of Apollo ... Philammon by Leuconoe, daughter of Luciferus [Eosphoros]." - Hyginus, Fabulae 161 "Brilliant in the dawn Lucifer (Morning-Star) had mounted high, the star that wakes the world to work." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 4.665 Mary worshiped by RCC is also known as "Morning Star", STAR OF THE THIRD MILLENNIUM and 'Star of the Sea' who guides us safely into heaven's port http://www.scborromeo.org/saints/bvm.htm "HAIL MARY Star of the Morning" http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/hail_mary_star_of_morning.htmThe symbol of islam is the The crescent, star. The roots of islam can be traced back to: "The first pre-Islamic inscription discovered in Dhofar Province, Oman, this bronze plaque, deciphered by Dr. Albert Jamme, dates from about the second century A.D. and gives the name of the Hadramaut moon good Sin and the name Sumhuram, a long-lost cityThe moon was the chief deity of all the early South Arabian kingdomsparticularly fitting in that region where the soft light of the moon brought the rest and cool winds of night as a relief from the blinding sun and scorching heat of day. In contrast to most of the old religions with which we are familiar, the moon god is male, while the sun god is his consort, a female. The third god of importance is their child, the male morning star, which we know as the planet Venus...The spice route riches brought them a standard of luxurious living inconceivable to the poverty-stricken South Arabian Bedouins of today. Like nearly all Semitic peoples they worshipped the moon, the sun, and the morning star. The chief god, the moon, was a male deity symbolized by the bull, and we found many carved bulls heads, with drains for the blood of sacrificed animals." Qataban and Sheba, Wendell Phillips, 1955,
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:21:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.' jt: Why not allow scripture to interpret scripture JD? Death scripturally can be either the absence of spiritual life or the end of days absence of breath because of sickness and disease or old age. Both are valid. LOL, Judy. You admonish me to "let scripture interpret scripture" and they you off me NO scripture. Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. The three cannot be separated and survive. jt: Why not see what the scriptures say about this and if they don't agree with Bill then you can decide whose report you will believe. 1 Thess 5:23,24 speaks of the God of Peace sanctifying us completely and identifies the complete man as spirit, soul, and body. All three are to be preserved blameless. Now if they are not to be thought of separately then why are these verses in the Bible You have used my words if you believe that "total man" and "complet man" speak ofthe same unity. I do. My body is made up of physical components. The components of a man are body, soul and spirit. Man is not complete without all three. and why does Heb 4:12 speak of the separation of spirit and soul. This word of God can distinguish between, spirit and soul, between joints and marrow and between the thoughts of the heart and the intentions of the heart (often, two very different things.) This verse has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I would think these issues are important since the Word of God addresses them. I agree, so lets use scripture that speaks to the subject at hand and stay on point, shall we? THAT is why the physical body will be raised - because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), jt: I believe you are wrong about this JD. I was quoting scripture, Judy. Those who are of the flesh are those who HAVE THEIR MINDS SET ON THINGS OF THE FLESH. Those who are of the Spirit have their minds set on things of the Spirit m Romans 8:5. You can believe I am wrong all you want -- but I am hanging with Paul on this one. The rich man in Hades who wanted Lazarus to come and help him - did he have his body down there with him? No Judy -- he just had a tongue !!! I will be back. I have to go into the other room and laugh for a while. When Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison - where are their bodies? This is important - If you can't identify flesh then how are you going to keep from walking in it? You will never get out of captivity that way and the body you are in right now is not going to heaven the way it is. Of course it isn't. What in this world are you talking about. Our bodies will be raised and then transformed into some form of which we know nothing. You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. jt: And you and your friend use a non-biblical word to express a tritheism that is not taught in scripture. Godhead is the scriptural term "Godhead" is an English interpretation of a biblical (read:Greek) word. In other words, "Godhead" is not a biblical word -- it is an interpretation. A better word may be "essence." "Trinity" is a non-bliblical word that gives us the FAther, the Son and the Spirit (that's three ) . When we say "the trinity" we are saying "the three." and mankind is also a triune being. How is it that you can accept all of these non-biblical concepts concerning the Godhead (where does anyone get the idea that there is dancing going on?) and yet refuse to accept the concept that our bodies contain a soul and spirit which harmonize and work together the same way the Godhead does ie none is complete without the others and they submit one to the other. I am sorry, Judy, but there is nothing in the above with which I disagree. How does your point argue against mine/ I missed it. Many argue that man is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. jt: I wouldn't argue with your point above, but I would add that there are two spiritual kingdoms vying for the allegiance of manking and we need to know which one we are communing with and walking in lock-step with. Apparently the flat tire has been fixed and the auto is running down the road in good shape. Amen to the above. As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Blaine, Don’t you think that since God created the stars that we observe, He dwells outside of that realm? The Milky Way is but a speck of dust in our universe—why would He make that particular relatively tiny spot His dwelling place IYHO? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:54 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky was. (If I said he did, would you argue the point? :>). However, he once pointed up into the night sky towards the constellation Sagittarius, and said, "God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO. Blainerb In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thamas had a conversation with Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without ceasing." If you think pryaer is talking -- you are lost on this one. Prayer is much more a communion with God than is talking to Him. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub? TerryKOLOB RECORDS It is the Record Label of those Spiffy Clean veneer OSMONDS! http://www.deuceofclubs.com/lps/kolob.htm Well actually it is a really cool park http://www.americansouthwest.net/utah/zion/kolob_canyons.html OR it is PLANET LDS! Kolob governs all the planets which belong to the same order as the earth and is after the reckoning of the Lord's times, seasons and revolutions thereof. One revolution of Kolob is a day unto the Lord and one day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years on earth. Kolob means "the first creation." It is the name of the planet "nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God." It is "first in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. . . . One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth." Book of Abraham, pp. 34-35; Abra. 3:3-9. Mormon Doctrine, p.428 It is said that god also has a secret summer residence called "Area LDS" There, testing of Eternal progressions, fly byes, and first attempts at Organizing new planets are performed, just in case of those dreadful misfires that occur once in a while. You know how embarassing it is for a new god to blow it right spank in front of the whole council of gods. And who could forget that GREAT HYMN of the faith? If You Could Hie to Kolob, 284 - William W. Phelps 1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye,And then continue onward With that same speed to fly,Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity,Find out the generation Where Gods began to be? 2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend?Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end?Me thinks the Spirit whispers, No man has found pure space,Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place. 3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound;Improvement and progression Have one eternal round.There is no end to matter; There is no end to space;There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race. 4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might;There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light.There is no end to union; There is no end to youth;There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth. 5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;There is no end to being; There is no death above.There is no end to glory; There is no end to love;There is no end to being; There is no death above. Hear it here: http://nowscape.com/mormon/images/If_You_Could_Hie_To_KOLOB_from_Levi_Sisemore.mid It is said that Kolob may have been the INSPIRATION for this well known song! http://solosong.net/wish.html Terry Clifton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin Deegan wrote: That seems a logical place for God to live So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses? God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14 & Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub?Terry Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Maybe she'll have to take a Break, go on a Vacation?Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yes; after all, that IS a sure sign of the end of the world!! (Or at least Judy's world.) Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may as well discontinue the dialogue. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:> Kevin wrote:> > Facts to prove that JT was influenced by > > Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by > > Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out > of a > truism?> > Peace be with you.> David Miller. > > --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.> > judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Good question - it appears as though to some people I've been influenced by everything BUT the Spirit of God. I'd like to see the facts myself. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 17:19:02 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Show me the FAXS How is your perception a TRUISM?David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism?Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Kevin Deegan wrote: That seems a logical place for God to live So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses? God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14 & Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 Now I'm confused (even more than usual). What happened to Kolub? Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Yes; after all, that IS a sure sign of the end of the world!! (Or at least Judy's world.) Debbie - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:02 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may as well discontinue the dialogue. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:> Kevin wrote:> > Facts to prove that JT was influenced by > > Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by > > Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out > of a > truism?> > Peace be with you.> David Miller. > > --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.> > judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
So David, now you and BT are in one accord so we may as well discontinue the dialogue. jt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 18:49:14 -0400 "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:> Kevin wrote:> > Facts to prove that JT was influenced by > > Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by > > Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out > of a > truism?> > Peace be with you.> David Miller. > > --> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you > may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you > have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.> > judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Kevin wrote: > Facts to prove that JT was influenced by Why would any sane person not believe that JT has been influenced by Augustine, Calvin, her flesh, Satan, etc.? Why make an argument out of a truism? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Blaine wrote: > ... pointing right into the center of the Milky > Way Galaxy. That seems a logical place for > God to live, but then that is IMHO. Why not the center of the universe instead of the center of the galaxy? Why not the center of our solar system (the sun)? Can you tell us a little more of your thinking? By the way, the center of our galaxy is thought to have a massive black hole. That sounds more like a place where maybe Satan lives. Maybe Kevin also thinks that the center of our galaxy would be the logical place where Joseph Smith would point out is the home of his god. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Now that I would like to see - After all the accusations I've still not seen any factual information showing how what I am saying is the same as Augustine - in fact I found a whole list of things that are in conflict. He would have excommunicated me with the Donatists and other hereticks for sure. Do you really think TT is a Magical Mystery Tour Kevin :) this is too funny. ROTFL On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 14:49:28 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Facts to prove that JT was influenced by ...David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Nice THEORY Where are the facts?> You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore> than proving the Tooth Fairy!I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to those who have a heart that desires to learn.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Facts to prove that JT was influenced by ...David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Kevin wrote:> Nice THEORY Where are the facts?> You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore> than proving the Tooth Fairy!I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to those who have a heart that desires to learn.Peace be with you.David Miller. --"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.orgIf you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
That seems a logical place for God to live So he lives next door to the god of the Jehovahs Witnesses? God resides on the star Alcyone in the constellation Pleiades. Reconciliation page 14 & Studies Vol. 3, pg. 327 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky was. (If I said he did, would you argue the point? :>). However, he once pointed up into the night sky towards the constellation Sagittarius, and said, "God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO. Blainerb In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thamas had a conversation with Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without ceasing." If you think pryaer is talking -- you are lost on this one. Prayer is much more a communion with God than is talking to Him. JD Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Judy wrote: > David sins follow family trees, the characteristics of > spirituality follow families. This is true, but there are two types of sin sources that need to be considered. There also are different mechanisms by which these are transferred to future generations. The flesh has a sin nature which is transferred to children through chemicals in their genes called DNA. Spirit, however, is not transferred by DNA. Spirit is created by God and has nothing to do with the flesh. This is why identical twins who have identical genetic material share many physical traits but are different in spirit (they have different personalities right from birth). Judy wrote: > That is the sin and iniquity we are conceived in (Ps 51) Right, this refers to the sin nature of the flesh which is transferred via DNA to the children. Judy wrote: > and when ppl participate in the same sin that their ancestors > \ did we see the movement of sin through the generations. > This is called the old man or the carnal nature. Ok, but the participation is something beyond just the inheritance of the sinful nature. The inheritance aspect does not require participation in order to be recognized. Participation then will involve other elements that are not inherited, spiritual elements, which might be the same spirits that operated in the ancestor. Observing them and their influence in future generations does not mean that it was inherited from the parents. Judy wrote: > When the first Adam died, his body went back to the dust > and a kingdom transferred by its fallen nature to his seed. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying that a kingdom was "transferred" when he died and his body went back to the dust? If so, how would this be viewed as inheritance? I don't see it as such, but as a transfer of authority in the same way that the Vice President takes over for the President when he dies. I think you are confusing the issues of inheritance with familial authority. Judy wrote: > Generational sin is a spiritual rather than a psychological > issue and acting it out always follows unless the child dies > in infancy. What foundation do you have for saying this? Are all people subject to "generational sin"? David Miller wrote: >> I believe in a concept of curses being passed on to future >> generations, but not in the same sense of inheritance as we >> find for physical inheritance. It is only through authority that >> parents give to evil spirits through their sin that allows curses >> to be passed on. How else do we understand the Lord's >> teaching in Ezekiel 18? Judy wrote: > Ezekiel 18 is exhorting these ppl to repent and turn so that > generational iniquity willl not be their ruin. It has always been > true that we are judged for our own transgression; Vs26,27 > explain how when the wicked turn to righteousness or the > righteous turn to wickedness each is judged/rewarded accordingly. The point is that the Jews were using the same verse that you do to create a proverb that basically said the children's teeth were set on edge by the parents. God hated this proverb. Ezekiel 18:1-3 (1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying, (2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. Judy wrote: > These ppl were falsely accusing God. Yeah, they were accusing God of cursing the children because of the sins of the parents. They were saying that the children had no choice but to sin because of what the parents had done. They were using God's own Holy Word to teach this doctrine. Ezekiel 18:19-20 (19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live. (20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Judy wrote: > Exactly - no problem there. We don't have to walk in the > iniquity of our fathers but most of us do because of ignorance. Earlier you said that the children will walk in the iniquity of the fathers, unless they die in infancy. It sounds to me like you are not being consistent, or perhaps I am not understanding you. This is one passage that I think puts Calvinism back into proper perspective. Doesn't the son bear the iniquity of the father? God says, "the son that hath done that which is lawful and right ... he shall surely live... the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father." Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
David Miller wrote: >> Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. >> He is saying that you have been influenced by >> Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints >> without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world >> and have grown up around ministers and school systems >> that have been touched by him in one way or another. Judy wrote: > Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on > constantly which is that noone can know what they think > they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradicts > scripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges > ALL things yet he himself is rightly judged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) This would only be true if learning ONLY happened in that way. I'm certainly not saying that. Do you recognize this "ambient" effect of our culture which teaches us things and gives us our perspective? Does it have ANY influence in your life whatsoever? Judy wrote: > I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in > fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes > would mean more to me since I was raised in the British system \ > and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Ok, so you have a different culture. Can you understand how my perspective of the word "Benedict" might be different than either you or the new Pope because of my culture? Guy Fawkes is not somebody I know of from culture, but only from history books. Perhaps you have a perspective about him that is negative from your culture? Do people in your culture sling his name around like they do "Benedict Arnold" here in the United States? David Miller wrote: >> The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and >> society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through >> secondary sources. You may never have read him or even >> heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could >> have come down to you. ... The third concept is, of course, that >> the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did >> to Augustine. Judy wrote: > Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like > that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved > to God until after I was "born again" The point is that there are concepts that have been thrust upon you by others that find their way into your mind. You attend a Presbyterian church. Whether you realize it or not, your mind is probably bombarded often with the teachings of both Augustine and Calvin. Do you truly not recognize this? The Bible says: Colossians 2:8 (8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Does not this passage indicate that philsophy and traditions of men impact upon us? Does it not warn us of this effect? Clearly this work is upon us whether we like it or not, or the Scriptures would not warn us to beware of it. Judy wrote: > What other way is there to explain what took place > in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for > 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind > as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam > died but not physically. One other way to understand this is that he was delivered over to the spirit of death on that day. He died, not in the sense that he dropped dead immediately, but in the sense that he was delivered over to the power of death. He became mortal and subject to sin, sickness, disease, and death. Have you ever heard of a Jewish man disowning his son who converted to Christianity? What does he say? You are dead. You are no longer my son. You are no longer in my life. You are dead. Does he mean that his son literally dropped dead? No, he means that his relationship with him is over. Did Adam die spiritually that day? Yes, in a metaphoric way, he did. Did Adam die physically that day? Yes, in a metaphoric way, he did. This is all that I am saying. Judy wrote: > Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam and the > creation were cursed at the same time and the curse is > always implemented by the powers of darkness who only > work death and destruction. They never bless. Actually > biology responds to psychology and psychology responds > to spirituality. In a spiritual person, you are right about biology responding to psychology and psychology responding to spirituality. However, in a carnal person, the reverse is true. The psychology (soul) responds to the body and the spirit responds to the psychology. Judy wrote: > Prior to Adams sin noone would have wanted to stab anyone's > heart Murder was not a reality until after the fall and neither was > mortality. Well, if you don't like the hypothetical, how about Adam falling off of a high cliff? The point is that Adam cannot die unless he is mortal. If God jumped off a cliff, guess what. He would not die. He is immortal. If Adam jumped off a cli
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Kevin wrote: > Nice THEORY Where are the facts? > You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore > than proving the Tooth Fairy! I gave you some facts with Ezekiel 18 and Exodus 20:5. More facts are available to those who have a heart that desires to learn. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
I can't say I've thought about it with any thoroughness before (which is why I didn't want to commit myself to an endorsement of that content of your post). I will do some thinking about it now, though, and may return to it as per your request. My answer to your first question will obviously constrain all the rest so that I might have to "recast" them. Debbie - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2005 12:53 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Debbie wrote: David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance). Thank you for the kind words, Debbie, but now my curiosity is piqued. Do you have a system of understanding spiritual inheritance? If so, please discuss it with us. Address the following points: 1. Is there such a thing as spirit? My answer would be yes. 2. Where does the spirit come from? Is it inherited, something passed down from Adam? My answer would be no. God creates the spirit for each individual that comes into this world at the time the individual is born. 3. Are any spiritual traits of parents passed down to their children through some kind of transferrence involving the conception of life in the womb? My answer would be no. I offer my answers above, not on any authority, but on my current perspective which is subject to change when better information comes my way. I look forward to hearing your perspective on this subject. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Hey Iz, To my knowledge, Joseph Smith never said what color the sky was. (If I said he did, would you argue the point? :>). However, he once pointed up into the night sky towards the constellation Sagittarius, and said, "God lives up yonder." It turns out he was, according to discoveries made in the early 1900's, pointing right into the center of the Milky Way Galaxy. That seems a logical place for God to live, but then that is IMHO. Blainerb In a message dated 7/29/2005 9:23:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: JD, if I said the sky is blue you would argue with it. Don't you ever get tired of being obtuse? Prayer CAN also be verbal! Remember, Jesus did it? And Jesus told us how to pray (verbally)??? And it was actually, like, talking to God? (duh.) What was the Lord's Prayer all about, anyway? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:23 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thamas had a conversation with Christ. Prayer is something much different, sometimes requiring the assistance of the Spirit when our words are not sufficient. In fact, we are told to "pray without ceasing." If you think pryaer is talking -- you are lost on this one. Prayer is much more a communion with God than is talking to Him. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
John wrote: > ... there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. > He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. > The three cannot be separated and survive. Even if this were true, this does not mean that we cannot talk about what each part contributes. When talking about the physical body, I can talk about different organs and tissues, whether they be the heart, the lungs, the stomach, the brain, the muscles, the skin, etc. Being reductionistic is not a sin and it is not improper even if the body cannot exist without all parts connected and functioning together. John wrote: > THAT is why the physical body will be raised --- > because there is no life for man apart from the three and > no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and \ > that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), The state of mind is described as either carnal or spiritual, but this does not mean that there is not a real flesh and a real spirit that is being talked about. You cannot use the context of Romans 8 to deny the reality of the physical body or to deny the reality of the spirit. John wrote: > You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in > and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught > in scripture at all, which is not fine. Sorry, but the dualism is taught in the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. I don't have time to write a book for you right now showing it everywhere. If you are interested, ask, and I will post passages as I have time. You can start with the formation of Adam from the dust of the ground, and what it took to make him alive. John wrote: > Many argue that man is given choices in life that > are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." Right. This is the state of mind that you referenced in Romans 8. Men can mind things that are spiritual or mind things that are not spiritual (carnal). John wrote: > ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot > be separated from such. Wrong, John. Read Romans 8:5 again. "They that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh, but they that are after the spirit the things of the spirit." Some choices are spiritual (motivated by the spirit) and some choices are carnal (motivated by the flesh). John wrote: > As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with > this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long > as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an > autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and > soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, > ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this > or teaches other wise. Scripture certainly does teach dualism. Please do not be so ignorant. Have you not read in Revelation 6, how the souls of those who were slain were under the altar of God, asking how long they would wait for the judgment? These were conscious souls under the altar of God in heaven? Where were their bodies? In the ground on earth. And have you not read Luke 16, how when Lazarus died, the angels carried him to Abraham's bosom, but the rich man found himself in hell? Where was the rich man's body? Jesus says his body was buried. If you are going to rebuke anyone for teaching dualism, you had better start with rebuking Jesus. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 12:21:48 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.' jt: Why not allow scripture to interpret scripture JD? Death scripturally can be either the absence of spiritual life or the end of days absence of breath because of sickness and disease or old age. Both are valid. Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. The three cannot be separated and survive. jt: Why not see what the scriptures say about this and if they don't agree with Bill then you can decide whose report you will believe. 1 Thess 5:23,24 speaks of the God of Peace sanctifying us completely and identifies the complete man as spirit, soul, and body. All three are to be preserved blameless. Now if they are not to be thought of separately then why are these verses in the Bible and why does Heb 4:12 speak of the separation of spirit and soul. I would think these issues are important since the Word of God addresses them. THAT is why the physical body will be raised - because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), jt: I believe you are wrong about this JD. The rich man in Hades who wanted Lazarus to come and help him - did he have his body down there with him? When Jesus went and preached to the spirits in prison - where are their bodies? This is important - If you can't identify flesh then how are you going to keep from walking in it? You will never get out of captivity that way and the body you are in right now is not going to heaven the way it is. You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. jt: And you and your friend use a non-biblical word to express a tritheism that is not taught in scripture. Godhead is the scriptural term and mankind is also a triune being. How is it that you can accept all of these non-biblical concepts concerning the Godhead (where does anyone get the idea that there is dancing going on?) and yet refuse to accept the concept that our bodies contain a soul and spirit which harmonize and work together the same way the Godhead does ie none is complete without the others and they submit one to the other. Many argue that man is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. jt: I wouldn't argue with your point above, but I would add that there are two spiritual kingdoms vying for the allegiance of manking and we need to know which one we are communing with and walking in lock-step with. As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise. jt: Now you are verging off into philosophy JD. How are we ever going to try the spirits and prove what is of God if you are constantly going off into mixture? Ontology is a metaphysical term. Can we use the same plainness of speech Paul spoke of in 1 Cor to discuss spiritual realities - Please JD? Since man is a spirit filled being (John 3:21; Phil 2:12-13) he destroys himself when he tries to live his life apart from God - such is impossible and death is its only result. jt: Ppl can be demonized for a long time before God's mercy runs it's course and physical death ensues. Look at how long he gave the Amorite nations - 400 years wasn't it? Before He said - That's it. Today we have all kinds of weird spiritualities calling themself godly who will also inherit the wind unless they repent and turn. This is not some liberal teaching that takes us away from God !!! Such a conclusion is thoughtless bordering. jt: Any teaching that ignores or negates God's holiness and his justice and focuses upon his love to the exclusion of all else is a liberal teaching and will take people away from God. Rather, it puts God in man and offers man a choice - to accept this gifted presence and live, or reject what cannot be rejected and die. jt: Only one problem JD. God does not go w
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Debbie wrote: > David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post > you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen > to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance). Thank you for the kind words, Debbie, but now my curiosity is piqued. Do you have a system of understanding spiritual inheritance? If so, please discuss it with us. Address the following points: 1. Is there such a thing as spirit? My answer would be yes. 2. Where does the spirit come from? Is it inherited, something passed down from Adam? My answer would be no. God creates the spirit for each individual that comes into this world at the time the individual is born. 3. Are any spiritual traits of parents passed down to their children through some kind of transferrence involving the conception of life in the womb? My answer would be no. I offer my answers above, not on any authority, but on my current perspective which is subject to change when better information comes my way. I look forward to hearing your perspective on this subject. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Since this "spiritual condition" you speak of includes the physical body - the correct word would be "dead" or "death.' Look, what Bill is trying to get across is that aside from the metaphorical language used to teach biblical concepts, the reality is this: there is not a dual reality when it comes to man. He is mind, body/soul, and spirit. That is what he is. The three cannot be separated and survive. THAT is why the physical body will be raised --- because there is no life for man apart from the three and no eternal life apart from God. "That which is flesh" and that "which is spirit" IS A STATE OF MIND (Rom 8:5), You are using a non-bliblical word (which is fine, in and of itself) to express an dualism that is not taught in scripture at all, which is not fine. Many argue that man is given choices in life that are "spiritual" and "non-spiritual." ALL choices are "spiritual" because man cannot be separated from such. As far as I am concerned (and Bill might not agree with this - input please), your use of "spiritual" is fine as long as you do not mean to imply a dualism that embraces an autonomy in each of its two ontological states -- body and soul living together until judgment day. We are one being, ontologically speaking, and nothing in scripture denies this or teaches other wise. Since man is a spirit filled being (John 3:21; Phil 2:12-13) he destroys himself when he tries to live his life apart from God --- such is impossible and death is its only result. This is not some liberal teaching that takes us away from God !!! Such a conclusion is thoughtless bordering. Rather, it puts God in man and offers man a choice - to accept this gifted presence and live, or reject what cannot be rejected and die. This teaching insists upon repentance (a change of mind), preaching to the lost that they must stop thinking they are autonomous AND ACTING OUT THAT THOUGHTLESSNESS, and accept what is given to them and live as if LIFE were an integral part of who they are because tht is the way it is. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 30 Jul 2005 02:57:51 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death And since it is the spiritual condition under discussion, this would be "spiritually dead" right JD? On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:27:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already" -- kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. Jd From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy asks > Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existence in th e depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was e
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Apparently you missed the post recently where I said we just baptized 193 people at our church JD. Regarding your last sentence, I'm all for it--why don't you give it a try? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:07 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. What? Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit... 1 PETER 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 1 JN 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1 JN 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 JN 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. Gal 4:29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. JN 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Of course they did JD, and some even explain what they mean. We have Jesus discourse with Nicodemus in John 3 where he juxtaposes spiritual with physical birth; and an object lesson is given for this in Gal 4:29 where two of Abrahams sons - one born of flesh and the other born of the spirit are contrasted. The child of flesh persecuting the one born of the spirit just as the flesh always strives against the spirit. 1 Peter 1:23 speaks of being born again not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible. So what is the problem??? Water Baptism alone may symbolize something but Mark 16:16 spells it out. The one who believes and is baptized is saved. If they believe not they are damned. Baptism is not mentioned in part B because it is possible for someone to be baptized and be damned. judyt On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:07:24 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level. JD From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
And since it is the spiritual condition under discussion, this would be "spiritually dead" right JD? On Sat, 30 Jul 2005 01:27:09 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already" -- kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. Jd From: ShieldsFamily [EMAIL PROTECTED] Izzy asks > Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existence in the depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I prefer "you're right again, John" to "that settles it," but I will take what I can get. Jed -Original Message-From: Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 20:15:00 -0700 (PDT)Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. JD Well. That settles it then.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:23 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. JD jt: I can JD - Look at the "mystery of godliness" in the 2nd Adam (1 Timothy 3:16) God was manifested in the flesh Justified or vindicated in the spirit Why if the death was physical in the garden wasn't he justified in the flesh? We are propagating the same error all over again. You are saying that God didn't mean what He said when He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road. Note: A day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations. Is God like human parents who threaten but don't follow through? It is always kind of humorous how you bob and weave through a discussion. I raise a question about the Genesis text - you assert that there IS an answer to be found in Genesis ("I can JD") and then proceed to ignore the Genesis text altogether. You know full well that God can change His mind. When Adam heard " you shall Shirely die " there is no doubt that he thought of physical death. God simply changed His mind about this punishment. it's called grace !!! jd: I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind. Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such. jt: When you are God you can do anything you want but why? What evidence do you have that he changed his mind? In Jeremiah 18:8 He only relents on condition that they repent. You can establish rules for God's conduct all you want, Judy, but I will not buy any of it. The point is this: God can change His mind about anything. Jere 18 presents a specific change of mind. And God repented that he ever made man, in the days of Noah. God changes His mind and when He first promised punishment, this change of mind is a blessing of grace jd: Could you help me find the reference in the OT when the writer finally got around to meaning something other than the inclusive of physical death? jt: A&E lost fellowship with God when they sinned and both were banished from His garden - By Genesis 6:3 the gulf had gotten so wide that God is saying "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever for he is flesh" and man's days were shortened to 120yrs (they are even less now). The statement "he is flesh" here does not mean "he is a physical body" In fact, it means that his whole existence centered around his fleshly nature, his body. jd: Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day, transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?" jt: Yes, everyone will be raised on the last day, some to life eternal and others to everlasting death. jd: That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit. jt: The object is for the soul to be saved from God's wrath JD which is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and the redeemed will have a transformed body; no guarantee that it is just like the one you have right now The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus and when he appears to John the beloved in the book of Revelation the one who once leaned on his breast is terrified and falls on his face. All of this might be true -- but what body is transformed? How earthly body. Why does God not allow the physical body to remain in the grave? BECAUSE MAN CAN LIVE (ETERNALLY) WITHOUT IT (transformed, transfigured or whatever)!! Our sould does not exist apart from our body. jd: I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the better I like it. jt: Why? What's so great about the body you have now? Remember when I said that if I were to share all the miracles and blessings God has provided me, you (all) would be jealous)? Well, my body is one of those blessings A magnificent declaration of God's creative powers!!! judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him I have another "C" --charis, my dear, charis. JD Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
That would be the word "dead" or the phrase " dead already" -- kind of like your discussion with Bill at this point. Jd -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 22:23:07 -0500Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death Izzy asks > Do you have a ?biblical term? that expresses man?s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existence in the depravity of their fallen state. I mplicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I asked for examples of those who heard these words of Christ and were sent into all the world (the 12 apostles). They and the other evangelists, never used these very words - you must be born again in order to be saved. Never. Why? We have thrown water baptism out as that sacrament that symbolizes our inclusion in Christ and have preached "the sinners prayer" as if this were a biblical teaching. I would expect that if our doctrine were thiers of so many years ago, that we would talk or act like them on some level. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:31:14 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn?t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don?t care if it?s a biblical or not as long as it?s a biblical concept, or?izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Izzy asks > Do you have a “biblical term” that expresses man’s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. In other words, I stumped you, huh? J When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. So you think a person cannot be spiritually dead until they are physically dead? If a person is physically alive, he is also spiritually alive??? He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existence in the depravity of their fallen state. Implicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. Agreed, of course. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. No, not really, but I think you must be tuckered out, Bill. I think if I keep pointing out the holes in your theory, so to speak, you might get either really angry or have to give up and agree with me once in a while. J Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Absolutely likewise, Bill, and thanks, as it was enjoyable. izzy Bill
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
We had an enjoyable family discussion around the dinner table tonight about, among other things, how God is the source of everything that exists in the universe, and how He is the one who holds it all together by His word at every moment—from the vastness of the universe to the quarks that make up the molecules. The more we learn about science, the more the word of God proves true. Certainly in Him all things consist—even your next breath depends upon His presence and grace. That doesn’t, however, mean that all humans are “in Christ”, (which to me is the same thing as “Christ in you.”), just because they are present in His creation/universe. Neither are the slugs and spiders, simply because they are created and exist by His permission/will. To me “in Christ” is a whole different thing. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:46 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. It is not my opinion that matters here, Izzy. Please read the above and respond if you like. As for my opinion, I believed that everything is reconciled in Christ, but not everyone is willing to participate in that reconciliation -- the devil and bin Laden included. They and many others are refusing the reconciliation of God in Christ. The devil in particular will forever refuse that reconciliation (we have the end of the story as far as he is concerned). This however does not negate the fact that God has re-gathered in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him (see Eph 1.10). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So even satan and osama bin laden are “in Christ” in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically “sitting with Christ in the heavenlies”, my physical body is not—it is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the p
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. JD Well. That settles it then.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:23 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. JD jt: I can JD - Look at the "mystery of godliness" in the 2nd Adam (1 Timothy 3:16) God was manifested in the flesh Justified or vindicated in the spirit Why if the death was physical in the garden wasn't he justified in the flesh? We are propagating the same error all over again. You are saying that God didn't mean what He said when He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road. Note: A day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations. Is God like human parents who threaten but don't follow through? It is always kind of humorous how you bob and weave through a discussion. I raise a question about the Genesis text - you assert that there IS an answer to be found in Genesis ("I can JD") and then proceed to ignore the Genesis text altogether. You know full well that God can change His mind. When Adam heard " you shall Shirely die " there is no doubt that he thought of physical death. God simply changed His mind about this punishment. it's called grace !!! jd: I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind. Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such. jt: When you are God you can do anything you want but why? What evidence do you have that he changed his mind? In Jeremiah 18:8 He only relents on condition that they repent. You can establish rules for God's conduct all you want, Judy, but I will not buy any of it. The point is this: God can change His mind about anything. Jere 18 presents a specific change of mind. And God repented that he ever made man, in the days of Noah. God changes His mind and when He first promised punishment, this change of mind is a blessing of grace... jd: Could you help me find the reference in the OT when the writer finally got around to meaning something other than the inclusive of physical death? jt: A&E lost fellowship with God when they sinned and both were banished from His garden - By Genesis 6:3 the gulf had gotten so wide that God is saying "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever for he is flesh" and man's days were shortened to 120yrs (they are even less now). The statement "he is flesh" here does not mean "he is a physical body" In fact, it means that his whole existence centered around his fleshly nature, his body. jd: Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day, transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?" jt: Yes, everyone will be raised on the last day, some to life eternal and others to everlasting death. jd: That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit. jt: The object is for the soul to be saved from God's wrath JD which is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and the redeemed will have a transformed body; no guarantee that it is just like the one you have right now The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus and when he appears to John the beloved in the book of Revelation the one who once leaned on his breast is terrified and falls on his face. All of this might be true -- but what body is transformed? How earthly body. Why does God not allow the physical body to remain in the grave? BECAUSE MAN CAN LIVE (ETERNALLY) WITHOUT IT (transformed, transfigured or whatever)!! Our sould does not exist apart from our body. jd: I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the better I like it. jt: Why? What's so great about the body you have now? Remember when I said that if I were to share all the miracles and blessings God has provided me, you (all) would be jealous)? Well, my body is one of those blessings A magnificent declaration of God's creative powers!!! judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him I have another "C" --charis, my dear, charis. JD Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
lol -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:49:15 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death But we know Kevin don't we that interpretation is not the same as "translation" On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation, see the NWT!Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
On Thu, 28 Jul 2005 02:22:23 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As I see it, they didn't. "Death" in Genesis only refers to physical death. I cannot think of anything that book that conflicts with that statement. JD jt: I can JD - Look at the "mystery of godliness" in the 2nd Adam (1 Timothy 3:16) God was manifested in the flesh Justified or vindicated in the spirit Why if the death was physical in the garden wasn't he justified in the flesh? We are propagating the same error all over again. You are saying that God didn't mean what He said when He told Adam THE DAY you eat you shall surely die, not 960 yrs down the road. Note: A day is defined in Genesis lest we get to the 1,000 yr day speculations. Is God like human parents who threaten but don't follow through? It is always kind of humorous how you bob and weave through a discussion. I raise a question about the Genesis text - you assert that there IS an answer to be found in Genesis ("I can JD") and then proceed to ignore the Genesis text altogether. You know full well that God can change His mind. When Adam heard " you shall Shirely die " there is no doubt that he thought of physical death. God simply changed His mind about this punishment. it's called grace !!! jd: I am saying that God, in His grace, changed His mind. Jere 18 makes it clear that He can do such. jt: When you are God you can do anything you want but why? What evidence do you have that he changed his mind? In Jeremiah 18:8 He only relents on condition that they repent. You can establish rules for God's conduct all you want, Judy, but I will not buy any of it. The point is this: God can change His mind about anything. Jere 18 presents a specific change of mind. And God repented that he ever made man, in the days of Noah. God changes His mind and when He first promised punishment, this change of mind is a blessing of grace.. jd: Could you help me find the reference in the OT when the writer finally got around to meaning something other than the inclusive of physical death? jt: A&E lost fellowship with God when they sinned and both were banished from His garden - By Genesis 6:3 the gulf had gotten so wide that God is saying "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever for he is flesh" and man's days were shortened to 120yrs (they are even less now). The statement "he is flesh" here does not mean "he is a physical body" In fact, it means that his whole existence centered around his fleshly nature, his body. jd: Is it not true that our bodies will be raised on that last day, transformed and (for some) presented with death in the "lake of fire?" jt: Yes, everyone will be raised on the last day, some to life eternal and others to everlasting death. jd: That death includes the whole man - body, soul mind and spirit. jt: The object is for the soul to be saved from God's wrath JD which is against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men and the redeemed will have a transformed body; no guarantee that it is just like the one you have right now The disciples did not recognize Jesus on the road to Emmaus and when he appears to John the beloved in the book of Revelation the one who once leaned on his breast is terrified and falls on his face. All of this might be true -- but what body is transformed? How earthly body. Why does God not allow the physical body to remain in the grave? BECAUSE MAN CAN LIVE (ETERNALLY) WITHOUT IT (transformed, transfigured or whatever)!! Our sould does not exist apart from our body. jd: I am kinda of like DM on this one -- the more I think about it, the better I like it. jt: Why? What's so great about the body you have now? Remember when I said that if I were to share all the miracles and blessings God has provided me, you (all) would be jealous)? Well, my body is one of those blessings A magnificent declaration of God's creative powers!!! judytThere are two C's in the christian lifeEither I am changing daily to be more like ChristOr I am being chastised by Him I have another "C" --charis, my dear, charis. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
John 3:21 says what it says and verse 31 does not contradict it. The question is this: when is birth from above (verse 31) a reality in my (our) life. The Spirit, since the incarnation and the cross, is a part of who we are all of us. We can accept this gift or not but it is a part of our very ontology. "Born of the Spirit" is just that -- we proceed from the Spirit. It is there, within, and in our acceptance of this gift, we proceed to the kind of life God desires for us -- hence, we are born OF the Spirit. JD -Original Message-From: Judy Taylor <jandgtaylor1@juno.com>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:54:01 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death There is scripture JD, Izzy may not have had time right now to find it. Jesus spells it out for us in John 3:31: "He who comes from above is above all; he wo is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all" So there you go .. If you are not born again of the Spirit you are earthly - a "natural man". On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:44:21 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I fixed a typo. - Original Message - From: Bill Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. It is not my opinion that matters here, Izzy. Please read the above and respond if you like. As for my opinion, I believe that everything is reconciled in Christ, but not everyone is willing to participate in that reconciliation -- the devil and bin Laden included. They and many others are refusing the reconciliation of God in Christ. The devil in particular will forever refuse that reconciliation (we have the end of the story as far as he is concerned). This however does not negate the fact that God has re-gathered in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him (see Eph 1.10). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another fo
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yes, "Pantheism" means "all is God." That, however, is not what I am suggesting. As to your other comment, I will direct you to the post I sent to Izzy. Bill - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Excuse me but isn't it pantheism when God and the creation are one and the same? Our God is transcendent, that is, above and apart from the Creation. Only the New Creation (which is spiritual) is in Christ. jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:25:17 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Col 1.16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. It is not my opinion that matters here, Izzy. Please read the above and respond if you like. As for my opinion, I believed that everything is reconciled in Christ, but not everyone is willing to participate in that reconciliation -- the devil and bin Laden included. They and many others are refusing the reconciliation of God in Christ. The devil in particular will forever refuse that reconciliation (we have the end of the story as far as he is concerned). This however does not negate the fact that God has re-gathered in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth -- in Him (see Eph 1.10). Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:25 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So even satan and osama bin laden are in Christ in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Excuse me but isn't it pantheism when God and the creation are one and the same? Our God is transcendent, that is, above and apart from the Creation. Only the New Creation (which is spiritual) is in Christ. jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 18:25:17 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: So even satan and osama bin laden are “in Christ” in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically “sitting with Christ in the heavenlies”, my physical body is not—it is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about my PHYSICAL BODY being currently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really! judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
JD, I give you scripture (You must be born again, for example) and then you tell me it doesn’t count because there was a better translation meaning another thing entirely, or it was a nonbiblical term, or then you don’t care if it’s a biblical or not as long as it’s a biblical concept, or…izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:44 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message- From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
So even satan and osama bin laden are “in Christ” in your opinion? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:30 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically “sitting with Christ in the heavenlies”, my physical body is not—it is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about my PHYSICAL BODY being currently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
some obscure biblical passage See "Mormon Doctrine" it says under the heading - Angel of Light - "The Devil" So why does your Intro in the D&C identify Moroni as an "angel of Light" or as Bruce says THE DEVIL? No response from you guys on this one? What do you mean OBSCURE? and maybe you should have said passage"S" EXODUS 7 And the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying, When Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Show a miracle for you: then thou shalt say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and cast it before Pharaoh, and it shall become a serpent. And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. HAVE YOU BEEN DELUDED? 2 Thes 2 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. MK 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. SINCE U ARE SO INTERESTED IN SIGNS I was wondering if you could tell us about the SIGNS of your APOSTLES? HOLY BIBLE: Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 7/28/2005 8:26:40 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Satan comes as an angel of light deceiving with miracles also. Blainerb: I keep hearing this--but other than some obscure biblical passage suggesting it might be true, what other evidence is there that Satan does this sort of thing commonly. He must have done it a lot of times recently, changing his appearance each time, and having a buddy with him from time to time, since Joseph Smith saw not only God and his Son Jesus Christ standing together in a column of brilliant light, but he saw Moroni numerous times, who could enter into a house through the ceiling, and disappear the same way, he and Oliver Cowdery saw Moses, who committed to him the keys for the gathering of Israel, they saw Elijah, come to fulfill the prophecy in the last chapter of Malachi, they saw Elias, come to restore the keys to the gospel of Abraham, and prior to this but on the same day, they saw Jesus Christ in His glory standing on a pavement of pure gold. All this, not to mention the appearance of John the Baptist when he restored the Aaronic Priesthood on the banks of the Susquehanna River, and Peter, James and John later when the Higher PH was restored. On that occasion, by the way, Satan did try to appear as an angel of light, but was detected by Michael, the archangel, and sent scurrying on his way. Wow!! That Satan is a real changeling! They should hire him for Star Wars movies. He could alternately pose as Luke Skywalker, Princess Leah, Yoda, Chubaka, and Darth Vader. :>) Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell WRONG Framing the discussion with your evil thoughts, does not make them God's thoughts: 2 PT 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. AND HE BACKED IT UP WITH HIS OWN BLOOD! Acts 20:28 the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. And remember you MUST be Born "Above" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainer: What I hear you saying is that God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell because they did not get a chance to hear the truth and accept Jesus Christ, confess him with their mouths, then continue about their daily sinning, but with a renewed heart full of hope of going to heaven. :>) "They worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:50:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so. Don't you just hate those Narrow Minded Christians? Who was it that said? Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that he wants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrine that all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so. The same psychology was what led to Black slaves being defined as soulless, to Jews being scapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog. __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
---Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:49:07 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:51:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). ?? JD Blainer: This seems a little confusing to me, w/o definitions in the first place as to what you mean by soul, spirit, mind, etc. I think I read you on what "body" means. :>) That's a no-brainer. (Mormons believe a soul is the combo of spirit and body--just so you can see where I am coming from.) Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Izzy asks > Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Okay, I will address your question and then try to summarize my position. I chose not to answer your question for the following reason: implicit in your wording is the assumption that we can separate the spirit aspect of personhood from the other aspects, the whole of which integrates to form what we call "persons," and that we can then address that aspect in abstention of the others. I do not accept that premise as it relates to our discussion, and therefore could not answer your question in the form it was structured. When the biblical authors speak to living subjects of their present or prior state of death, they are speaking metaphorically of their entire person; e.g., when Paul writes that his readers had been dead in trespasses and sin, he is speaking of their entire state of being and not just about their spiritual condition. The spirit aspect of their personhood was no more dead and no more alive than the rest of their being. He is speaking metaphorically about the hopelessness and helplessness of their entire former existence in the depravity of their fallen state. Implicit in his use of the term "dead" is the conveyance that they could do nothing of themselves to remedy the fact that they were doomed in that former state. I hope this will satisfy your request and trust that we have pretty much exhausted the need to continue this discussion. Thank you for your patience and the charity with which you conducted yourself. It is a pleasure to converse with you when we are not nipping at each others heels. God bless you, Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:27 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing. Oh, well iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man"; and secondly that it was inaccurate -- if what you are actually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT: Paul tells us that Christ re-gathered all things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other day in reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context. Yes, we sometimes use non-biblical t
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
A Jesuit attempt on King James' life was discovered when 36 barrels of gunpowder were found in the cellar of Westminster palace where King James was to speak in a few hours. Guy Fawkes and 3 other Roman Soldiers of fortune had taken an oath to assassinate the King. Their pledge was sealed with a solemn communion service, served by Jesuit priest, Father John Gerard, according to trial testimony later. These men were all found guilty and sentenced to death. (Final Authority, William Grady, (p189‑191) Real Audio of the book is here: see "Enter, The Jesuits" http://www.biblebelievers.com/Grady/Final_Authority.html The lesson and application for today's Bible‑believing pastor is all too clear. Any preacher who takes his stand for the King James Bible, versus all the other Alexandrian Egyptian text Bibles (NIV, NASB, NKJV) will also find 36 barrels of gunpowder under his feet, sooner or later! With this background, let us show why we believe the King James Bible is SUPERIOR to the newer Bible versions today! Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Thanks Kevin! Every day is a learning experience. I had no idea that terrorism in the UK was just as rife in that day - or that Guy Fawkes was a good RC. One never knows what you will dig up, it's exciting !!! jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of that I will address offline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can know what they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradicts scripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightly judged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raised in the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show m
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Translation 101 Translation: ENGLISH to Spanish again de nuevo Changed words Again to arriba Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: But we know Kevin don't we that interpretation is not the same as "translation" On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation, see the NWT!Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18) Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
David, I appreciate the substance and tone of this post you wrote to Judy (apart from whether or not I happen to have the same opinion about spiritual inheritance). I wanted to say something similar but you did so better than I would have. The reality that we are powerfully influenced by "ambient" ideas, whether true ones or erroneous ones, is not acknowledged often enough. Thanks also for the reminder that the merit of a a given idea does not depend on which other individuals have subscribed to it or who first enunciated it, or the biographical details of such a person. Debbie - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death > Judy wrote:>> Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this>> one and you need to repent.> > I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one > this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. > Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your > inability to make your case Biblically.> > I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to > Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is > saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of > his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world > and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched > by him in one way or another.> > Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, > "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative > thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? > Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about > a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name > without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative > thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came > through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our > generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of > view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian > ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary > source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world > that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive > connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture.> > The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that > many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never > have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his > views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain > Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian > viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but > heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept > resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were > not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible > privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind > sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit > revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine.> >>From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately > responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could > be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing > and came upon the same language to explain it. What is important to me is > whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best > way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did > Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, > or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he > immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense > that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the > aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death > from that very point in time. It could be that if somebody had stabbed his > heart with a knife prior to his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed > after he had sinned, he would have dropped dead right there on the spot. In > other words, he became mortal imm
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
In a message dated 7/28/2005 8:26:40 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Satan comes as an angel of light deceiving with miracles also. Blainerb: I keep hearing this--but other than some obscure biblical passage suggesting it might be true, what other evidence is there that Satan does this sort of thing commonly. He must have done it a lot of times recently, changing his appearance each time, and having a buddy with him from time to time, since Joseph Smith saw not only God and his Son Jesus Christ standing together in a column of brilliant light, but he saw Moroni numerous times, who could enter into a house through the ceiling, and disappear the same way, he and Oliver Cowdery saw Moses, who committed to him the keys for the gathering of Israel, they saw Elijah, come to fulfill the prophecy in the last chapter of Malachi, they saw Elias, come to restore the keys to the gospel of Abraham, and prior to this but on the same day, they saw Jesus Christ in His glory standing on a pavement of pure gold. All this, not to mention the appearance of John the Baptist when he restored the Aaronic Priesthood on the banks of the Susquehanna River, and Peter, James and John later when the Higher PH was restored. On that occasion, by the way, Satan did try to appear as an angel of light, but was detected by Michael, the archangel, and sent scurrying on his way. Wow!! That Satan is a real changeling! They should hire him for Star Wars movies. He could alternately pose as Luke Skywalker, Princess Leah, Yoda, Chubaka, and Darth Vader. :>)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Blainer: What I hear you saying is that God created billions of souls for the express purpose of sending them to hell because they did not get a chance to hear the truth and accept Jesus Christ, confess him with their mouths, then continue about their daily sinning, but with a renewed heart full of hope of going to heaven. :>) "They worship me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me." In a message dated 7/27/2005 8:50:59 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so. Don't you just hate those Narrow Minded Christians? Who was it that said? Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blainerb: What I hear Kevin saying is that he wants to eat, drink and be merry, but still be saved. He wants to have his cake and eat it too. His doctrine that all who confess Christ go to heaven basically means there is no hell for Christians, just for others who did not confess Christ, such as the billions of Chinese, Africans, Indians, etc., etc., etc., children included. This traditional Christian faith is not just narrow, but extremely so. The same psychology was what led to Black slaves being defined as soulless, to Jews being scapegoated, to the American Indian being esteemed as nothing--killing one dealt with legally about the same as if you killed a dog.
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
A Mormon doctrine relating to the body and the spirit--check it out for what it is worth to you: (Jesus Christ speaking:) The spirit of truth is of God. I am the spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fullness of truth, yea, even of all truth; And no man receiveth a fullness of truth unless he keepeth His (the father's) commandments. He that keepeth His commandments receiveth truth and light and knoweth all things. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise, there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation, for Man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element inseparably connected receive a fullness of joy, and when separated, man cannot receive a fullness of joy. The elements are the tabernacle of God, even temples, and whatsoever temple is defiled, God shall destroy that temple. D&C 93:26-35 In a message dated 7/27/2005 6:50:14 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You may have something here -- I don't know . But thanks for your input. Jd -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 10:49:07 EDTSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death In a message dated 7/26/2005 8:51:11 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Do I miss the point? The body, soul, mind and spirit are so integral to each other as to be without separation. If we are alive , we are alive in total. If we are dead, we are dead in total. Our bodies will be raised and reunited with soul mind and spirit (correct?) THEN transformed into a form we have yet to learn (I John 3:2) "Spiritual death" as a phrase tends to eliminate from our thinking the body, the mind and perhaps the spirit or the soul (if there is a difference). ?? JD Blainer: This seems a little confusing to me, w/o definitions in the first place as to what you mean by soul, spirit, mind, etc. I think I read you on what "body" means. :>) That's a no-brainer. (Mormons believe a soul is the combo of spirit and body--just so you can see where I am coming from.)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Thanks Kevin! Every day is a learning experience. I had no idea that terrorism in the UK was just as rife in that day - or that Guy Fawkes was a good RC. One never knows what you will dig up, it's exciting !!! jt On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 08:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of that I will address offline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can know what they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradicts scripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightly judged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raised in the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was "born again" >From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. jt: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not physically. What is important to me is whether the conc
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
But we know Kevin don't we that interpretation is not the same as "translation" On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:12:05 -0600 "Bill Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation, see the NWT!Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
DM writes: My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual inheritance only as an authority issue, not as something passed on through the act of creating progeny. Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us and over our children. Therefore, they have an effect upon future generations, not because the children inherited some kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death from their parents, but because their parents authority over them has granted authority to evil spirits over their children. jt: David sins follow family trees, the characteristics of spirituality follow families. That is the sin and iniquity we are conceived in (Ps 51) and when ppl participate in the same sin that their ancestors did we see the movement of sin through the generations. This is called the old man or the carnal nature. When the first Adam died, his body went back to the dust and a kingdom transferred by its fallen nature to his seed. It is similar to how the children are sanctified by believing parents, not by some kind of transference in the birthing process, but by way of spiritual authority issues. The passages that shape my thinking on this are Exodus 20:5 & Ezek. 18. In a nutshell, I believe that we inherit the basis for physical sin from our parents, but I do not see our spirits as being inherited from our parents, and therefore, I have trouble seeing any kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death being inherited from our parents. jt: Generational sin is a spiritual rather than a psychological issue and acting it out always follows unless the child dies in infancy. I believe in a concept of curses being passed on to future generations, but not in the same sense of inheritance as we find for physical inheritance. It is only through authority that parents give to evil spirits through their sin that allows curses to be passed on. How else do we understand the Lord's teaching in Ezekiel 18? jt: Ezekiel 18 is exhorting these ppl to repent and turn so that generational iniquity willl not be their ruin. It has always been true that we are judged for our own transgression; Vs26,27 explain how when the wicked turn to righteousness or the righteous turn to wickedness each is judged/rewarded accordingly. Ezekiel 18:1-3 (1) The word of the LORD came unto me again, saying,(2) What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge? (3) As I live, saith the Lord GOD, ye shall not have occasion any more to use this proverb in Israel. jt: These ppl were falsely accusing God. Ezekiel 18:19-20(19) Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.(20) The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. jt: Exactly - no problem there. We don't have to walk in the iniquity of our fathers but most of us do because of ignorance. For Israel it was walking in God's Law, statutes, and commandments. For us it is obeying the law of Christ. Either way involves removal of the other kingdom and renewing of the mind. judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Changed subjects should be reflected on the Subject line. Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation, see the NWT!Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
I guess Guy Fawkes did not like the KJV either.http://www.present-truth.org/KJV-HB/KJV-Bible.htm Judy Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of that I will address offline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can know what they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradicts scripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightly judged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raised in the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was "born again" >From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. jt: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not physically. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. jt: Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam and the creation were cursed at the same time and the curse is always implemented by the powers of darkness who only work death and destruction. Th
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
And there are only ONE Set of MARBLES in this game, BUMMER!ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing. Oh, well iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man"; and secondly that it was inaccurate -- if what you are actually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT: Paul tells us that Christ re-gathered all things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other day in reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context. Yes, we sometimes use non-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, since this whole discussion got started because you objected to those of us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had been accused of "touting" Barth and Torrance, and I was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there in Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on my end of the pool, 'cause I'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don't object, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Your last sentence is from outer space. iz It is from the TEXAS Translation, "God is our partner" HOWDY PARDNER! Maybe then we don't need an "appointment", after all? ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Everytime you read your KJV, you are reading "changed" words, Kevin: this because you are reading a translation. Bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation, see the NWT!Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Thats always the line! The watchtower did not change anywords either, they changed the translation, see the NWT!Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: No one has changed any words, Kevin. This is a false accusation. I changed the translation of a word to more accurately reflect the original intent. bill - Original Message - From: Kevin Deegan To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 5:45 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Here we have a perfect example of what modern day Jehudi's do to God's word. If it disagrees with their doctrine CHANGE the word. "A better translation would be 'ABOVE'" Once you change one word why not another and another. See how men help out God. I wonder if Marcion got his start by modifying one word? "Marcion the heretic, (AD 140) is distinctly charged by Tertullian (AD 200), and by Jerome a century and a half later, with having abundantly mutilated the text of Scripture, and of S. Paul's Epistles in particular. Epiphanius compares the writing which Marcion tampered with to a moth-eaten coat. "Instead of a stylus," says Tertullian, "Marcion employed a knife. What wonder if he omits syllables, since often he omits whole pages?" S. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Tertullian even singles out by name, accusing Marcion of having furnished it with a new title." The Last Twelve Verses Of Mark, p 106 Jer 36:23 And it came to pass, that when Jehudi had read three or four leaves, he cut it with the penknife, and cast it into the fire that was on the hearth, until all the roll was consumed in the fire that was on the hearth.ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
There is scripture JD, Izzy may not have had time right now to find it. Jesus spells it out for us in John 3:31: "He who comes from above is above all; he wo is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all" So there you go .. If you are not born again of the Spirit you are earthly - a "natural man". On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 10:44:21 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? judytBut we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. (2 Corinthians 3:18)
[TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Good Morning David, you write: Judy wrote: Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this one and you need to repent. DM: I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically. jt: I don't like it either David but there is some background here that you are not aware of that I will address offline. I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another. jt: Then he is saying the same as what Lance would harp on constantly which is that noone can know what they think they know (if it conflicts with his doctrine) which contradicts scripture itself because it is written "The spiritual man judges ALL things yet he himself is rightly judged by noone" (1 Cor 2:15) Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? jt: I don't know much of anything about Benedict Arnold, in fact I just had to ask my husband who he was. Guy Fawkes would mean more to me since I was raised in the British system and we would have a bonfire on Guy Fawkes day. Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture. The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine. jt: Are you kidding? At the church I grew up in we heard nothing like that and I personally did not begin to study to show myself approved to God until after I was "born again" >From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. jt: What other way is there to explain what took place in the garden David? Adam did not die physically for 960 more years so unless God lied or changed his mind as JD claims and did not follow through - then Adam died but not physically. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. jt: Well yes, that is the way it works. Both Adam and the creation were cursed at the same time and the curse is always implemented by the powers of darkness who only work death and destruction. They never bless. Actually biology responds to psychology and psychology
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual Death
Nice THEORY Where are the facts? You nor BT can prove this Theory anymore than proving the Tooth Fairy!David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Judy wrote:> Yes Bill you are the hypocrite on this> one and you need to repent.I haven't been following the posts the last few days, but I read this one this morning. Judy, please refrain from ad hominem arguments like this. Such only reveals your frustration in being able to communicate and your inability to make your case Biblically.I would like to frame what I think Bill's position is in regards to Augustine and you. Bill is not saying that you have read Augustine. He is saying that you have been influenced by Augustine and have adopted some of his viewpoints without realizing it. How? Because you live in this world and have grown up around ministers and school systems that have been touched by him in one way or another.Let me illustrate this with a non-Biblical terms. If I were to say to you, "Benedict" or "Benedict Arnold," what would form in your mind? Negative thoughts? Why? What do you know about this name? Who taught it to you? Now perhaps you can go to some class in grade school where you learned about a traitor, but even many non-educated people have a concept of this name without formal training. I myself do not know where I adopted the negative thoughts that I have about the name "Benedict," but I am sure that it came through the school system and society along the way. Ultimately, in our generation, there are some historians responsible for developing the kind of view that we have about this name. We may never have read this historian ourselves, but through teachers or the news media or some other secondary source, we adopted a concept concerning it. In other parts of the world that do not share our history, the name "Benedict" has a very positive connotation. Why? Different historians shaped the culture.The point is that Augustine has so influenced our culture and society, that many of his viewpoints become ours through secondary sources. You may never have read him or even heard of him, but there are many ways in which his views could have come down to you. Maybe you just heard a minister explain Genesis and use the term, "spiritual death" along with some Augustinian viewpoints. Perhaps he himself did not even read Augustine directly, but heard the view from someone else. It may be that at the time, the concept resonated with you and made sense. It may also be that at the time you were not really paying much attention, but later as you were reading your Bible privately, these ideas came to mind, having first been planted in your mind sometime before. The third concept is, of course, that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to you just like he perhaps did to Augustine.>From my perspective, the question of whether or not Augustine is ultimately responsible for your viewpoint is not really all that important. It could be that Augustine was right, and that you, independently, saw the same thing and came upon the same language to explain it. What is important to me is whether the concept is right. Is this concept of "spiritual death" the best way of understanding the truth of what is being discussed. For example, did Adam die spiritually that day, is that the best way to understand his death, or did he actually die physically that same day, not in the sense that he immediately dropped dead (we know that did not happen), but in the sense that he was delivered to death, which began working upon him, such that the aging process began and he became subject to disease, sickness, and death from that very point in time. It could be that if somebody had stabbed his heart with a knife prior to his sin, he would not have died, but if stabbed after he had sinned, he would have dropped dead right there on the spot. In other words, he became mortal immediately on that very day that he sinned.Now if on the other hand Adam died "spiritually" and if people are born spiritually dead and if his spiritual death is passed on through inheritance, there are many implications that such a model would have than if such were not true.Let's take just the situation of inheritance. I understand physical inhertiance pretty well, I think, having taught classes on genetics at the university. What I do not understand is spiritual inheritance, or whether spiritual inheritance even exists in the sense of being passed on from parent to offspring. My viewpoint tends to be one that recognizes spiritual inheritance only as an authority issue, not as something passed on through the act of creating progeny. Sin gives spirits in the air authority over us and over our children. Therefore, they have an effect upon future generations, not because the children inherited some kind of spiritual sin or spiritual death from their parents, but because their parents authority over them has granted authority to evil spirits over their children. It is similar to how the children are sanctified by beli
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
So, no scripture. Thanks for the admission. Outer space? John 3:21 He who does the truth COMES TO THE LIGHT, that his deeds might be clearly seen, that they have been done in God." In the above, "He who does the truth" is complimented by "...they have been done in God." We are ALREADY indwelt with the Spirit. That is part of the reconciliation of all things. Our acceptance of Christ, our receiving of this gift is our turning to the LIGHT (repentance). When we do that, it becomes manifestly clear that God has been there all along. This verse makes it clear that we are doing the truth BEFORE we come to the light and that this LIGHT reveals that all our works HAVE BEEN DONE in God. JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 09:22:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death "from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
it is that content which may be the focus of the passage Why would anyone be persuaded by a uncertain sound? KJV Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"? Yes. However, "from above" adds specific content that is not contained in "again", and it is that content which may be the focus of the passage. Debbie__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
We really have to drop this whole "nonbiblical term" red herring. First step to becoming a Jehudi!Debbie Sawczak <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Izzy responds: So you really don't object, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill? I think you are a bit confused, Izzy. It is not the term (since it has long ago been shown here that objection to a "nonbiblical term" is inherently absurd) but the idea that matters. The objection is that the idea of spiritual death is not taught in the Bible. The non-occurrence in the Bible of an _expression_ translatable as "spiritually dead", in view of the fact that the equivalents of both "spiritual" and "dead" occur quite frequently, is merely an interesting supporting incidental. Please note, BTW, that I'm not the one making the objection or claim, I'm just pointing out the difference to you between a term and an idea. We really have to drop this whole "nonbiblical term" red herring. Debbie Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
IF it were the same, then how could you have existed prior to your reception of the Holy Spirit? In Christ is the existence of everything. Christ in you is exclusive in that he is present only in believers; hence their hope of glory. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:20 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about my PHYSICAL BODY being currently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Just when I think I've cornered you into acknowledging the obvious you quit playing. Oh, well iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:22 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: “spiritual death” is simply the pre-“quickened” (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my view—not to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a “biblical term” that expresses man’s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man"; and secondly that it was inaccurate -- if what you are actually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT: Paul tells us that Christ re-gathered all things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those “nonbiblical” words, Bill. I had said something the other day in reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context. Yes, we sometimes use non-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, since this whole discussion got started because you objected to those of us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had been accused of "touting" Barth and Torrance, and I was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there in Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
:-) JD -Original Message-From: Dave Hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 06:37:57 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's body, you must know Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If you don't believe me, check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe looks the same as she did 5 years ago!) :-) Bill Taylor wrote: Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill -- ~~~ Dave Hansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.langlitz.com ~~~ If you wish to receive things I find interesting, I maintain six email lists... JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS, STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
"from below" is the alternative to "from above"--physical birth on earth. Your last sentence is from outer space. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:17 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
I am not interested in going down the same road again, so I will abstain from answering your question. God's blessings, Bill By the way, I think I understand your position. Thank you for expressing it. - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:09 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death My view is more correctly this: spiritual death is simply the pre-quickened (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my viewnot to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a biblical term that expresses mans spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man"; and secondly that it was inaccurate -- if what you are actually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT: Paul tells us that Christ re-gathered all things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those nonbiblical words, Bill. I had said something the other day in reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context. Yes, we sometimes use non-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, since this whole discussion got started because you objected to those of us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had been accused of "touting" Barth and Torrance, and I was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there in Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on my end of the pool, 'cause I'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don't object, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
How's that? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:16 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically “sitting with Christ in the heavenlies”, my physical body is not—it is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about my PHYSICAL BODY being currently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Thank you for admitting that. iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:11 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Referring to "born again."-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:50:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second one? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD -Original Message-From: Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill in Black - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :>) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new and biblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken. Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediate life-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. & lt; O:P> The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context. The truth is, the NT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicarious regeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity, and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made new and rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- i n a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondence to our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used also in John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as "from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Gr
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
And where is this "born from below" in the text, or does this matter to you? The "birth from above" or "new birth" brings the manifestation of Christ into our lives. And what does this manifestation accomplish -- it reveals that God has been our partner all along !! (John 3:21). JD -Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 04:21:20 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD == Terry wrote: Born again is correct. Izzy responds: If you were born "from below" the first time, and "born from above" the second time, wasn't the second time born "again"?
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Yeah, I suppose so -- AS LONG AS YOU REALIZE THAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT A METAPHOR NOW! Your "spirit" is growing stronger because of Christ IN you via the Holy Spirit. That is different than you in Christ, in terms of your existence. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 8:04 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death And while I am metaphorically sitting with Christ in the heavenlies, my physical body is notit is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about my PHYSICAL BODY being currently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Referring to "born again."-Original Message-From: ShieldsFamily <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 03:50:21 -0500Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Were they referring to the first physical birth, JD? Or the second one? iz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 5:50 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Footnotes in the New King James and NASV show born "from above" to be a viable translation and my Brown/Comfort Greek interlinear English translation actually uses "born from above" rather than "born again." JD -Original Message-From: Bill Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Thu, 28 Jul 2005 09:27:34 -0600Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Bill in Black - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:47 PM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy is red: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill TaylorSent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 4:44 PMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death As it pertains to the question of "regeneration" and being "born again," the church, and especially the "rivalist" (Revivalist) Yikes! thanks, no offence intended. Perhaps this was one of those Freudian slips :>) church in America since the early 19th c., has done much to shift the emphasis of these terms away from their biblical root and source in Jesus Christ, to the activities of individual believers. With this shift has developed a whole new and biblically foreign way of speaking about matters pertaining to salvation. Such as Perichoresis or Trinity? These actually find their origin back in the 3rd and 4th centuries. But your point is well taken. Much stress has been placed on the "new birth" as an immediate life-changing religious experience. David touched upon this in his discussion with you in regards to "the sinners prayer" and the vacancy of that practice in the New Testament witness. I?m hoping you read my post on that regarding the fact that I was referring to one praying a non-scripted type of prayer to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior. & lt; O:P> The language of "regeneration" is a great case in point. Contemporary Christians use this term to speak of the "conversion experience" and what happens in that event, as if it were often used in the NT in this same capacity; when in actual fact the term is used only twice and neither time in reference to conversion or "born again" experiences. I believe I?ve read you using that term, have I not? I probably have, if you are referring to 'regeneration.' But then again, I consider this to be an act of God as set forth in Titus 3, so I'm not treating it as a "born again experience." I don't recall talking in terms of being "born again," but I may have; I would want to check the context. The truth is, the NT does not use the term, as modern evangelicals do, for that which goes on in the "heart" of new converts. It speaks only in terms of the great and vicarious regeneration Book chapter and verse please? Titus 3.4-7 which took place in Jesus Christ in his resurrection, as something which God alone in the Holy Spirit through Christ did for humanity, and it speaks to the last day when the twelve will sit in judgment over Israel, and when all things shall be made new and rewards granted to those who have forsaken all to follow Christ. Yet we are accustomed to using this term in an entirely different way -- i n a w ay that I would suggest has minimal if any referential correspondence to our conversion experience. Now let's talk about "born again" and what that means in the context in which it was used. The same word that is translated as "again" in John 3.3 and 3.7, is used also in John 3.31. But in 3.31 it is translated not as "again" but as "from above": "He who comes from above is above all ..." I believe that this is how John's word needs to be understood in verses 3 and 7, and this even though Nicodemus misinterprets Jesus' use of the word. How could Nicodemus make this mistake? In the Greek this word can mean several things; it can mean "from the beginning"; or "from the first"; or "from above"; or "anew" or "again." Nicodemus understood Jesus to be saying that he needed to be born "again"; therefore his question about returning a second time to his mother's womb. But Jesus was not speaking of being born a second time; he was speaking about being born "from above"; hence h
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Just goes to show that Jesus inside changes us on the outside. J (Plus I only post the good photos!) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Hansen Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:38 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death DAVEH: While that may apply to Izzy's husband's body, you must know Izzy does not appear to be aging at all (If you don't believe me, check out her picture on the members' photo pageshe looks the same as she did 5 years ago!) :-) Bill Taylor wrote: Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill -- ~~~Dave Hansen[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.langlitz.com~~~If you wish to receivethings I find interesting,I maintain six email lists...JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,STUFF, MOTORCYCLE and CLIPS.
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
My view is more correctly this: “spiritual death” is simply the pre-“quickened” (ie: born-again) spiritual state of any person. They are not yet awakened to things of the Holy Spirit. Scripture holds no real interest for them compared to the philosophies of men. They have no grasp of true spiritual concepts. It is literal in that it is true. But it is not final until actual physical death. Do you understand what I am saying? I am trying to express my view—not to convince you. I would use another term if it expressed what I mean in the same way. Do you have a “biblical term” that expresses man’s spiritual condition prior to receiving Christ as Savior and Lord? Or do you think there is no such condition? izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:13 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death No, my point was firstly that it was a non-biblical term -- so be honest enough to recognize that you too are putting your trust in a "doctrine of man"; and secondly that it was inaccurate -- if what you are actually holding to is the idea of a literal spiritual death. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:17 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death BT: Paul tells us that Christ re-gathered all things (Eph 1.10) and that in him all things have their being or ontological There you go using one of those “nonbiblical” words, Bill. I had said something the other day in reference to our ontological status in Christ, to which you responded that you didn't understand what I was talking about. I used the term here to give that first statement some context. Yes, we sometimes use non-biblical terms to speak to biblical concepts. My gripe has never been that we do this. My gripe is with the hypocrisy of those who do the same but berate others when they do it. Iz: I find that interesting, Bill, since this whole discussion got started because you objected to those of us who were using the term "spiritual" in front of death because you considered "spiritual" to be a nonbiblical term. So, since then, I've been trying to point out that you, also, use "nonbiblical" terms all the time. Right? You'd better check your records, Izzy. This whole thing started when I pointed out that Judy too had been treating a "doctrine of man" as authoritative, namely, Augustine's doctrine of spiritual death. I had been accused of "touting" Barth and Torrance, and I was simply pointing out that it was not just the "libs" who treat others authoritatively. In point of fact, I have never had a problem with using appropriately indicative language to speak about biblical concepts, even when that language is "non-biblical." Neither have I denied the influence of others in my spiritual development. In that same post I also wrote, "I have been very candid throughout about both my appreciation of Torrance and the influence he has had upon the formation of my beliefs -- which is indeed quite significant." The reason that this thread took off like it did was because Judy took offence that I had attributed her doctrine to Augustine, claiming instead that he was not the one who came up with "spiritual death"; that it "is right there in Genesis." Well, it is not right there in Genesis. It is not anywhere. On every ocassion it is an interpretation, just as when I read the same Scripture pertaining to language of death and interpret it in a different way. So you can keep on pointing out my use of non-biblical termonology if you like, but it won't make much of a splash on my end of the pool, 'cause I'm not the hypocrite on this one. Izzy responds: So you really don't object, on the grounds of being a nonbiblical term, if we use the term "spiritual death" Bill?
RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
And while I am metaphorically “sitting with Christ in the heavenlies”, my physical body is not—it is right here, going downhill, even as my spirit person is getting better every day in Christ. So is my spirit in a different place than my body, Bill? Of course not. This shows that one can use a metaphor to express something that is not a physical reality. Can one be spiritually dead w/o being physically dead? Of course. izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:03 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Izzy, let's not be silly. You've got one body and it's getting older. Bill - Original Message - From: ShieldsFamily To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 3:00 AM Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death Iz: I'm sure there's a lesson in there somewhere. :-) So are you agreeing with me that our physical bodies really are dying, Yes. and you are speaking only metaphorically about our bodies being risen with Christ at the moment? Izzy Well, if I understand what you are getting at, this would not be metaphorical. I am talking about your existence, your being, that which holds you together and sustains you, and makes you real and gives you life. You do not have the power of existence in or of yourself. You are totally dependent on another for that. Neither does anyone else have this power. All existence is in Christ Jesus. It is in him that the real you exists. Bill Izzy responds: So you are not being metaphorical about my PHYSICAL BODY being currently risen in Christ, sitting in heaven? Really!
Re: [TruthTalk] Spiritual death
Linda: My computer froze up when I tried to respond to the post you wrote indicating your confusion over the issue of "spiritual death." The words, themselves, are not the issue. I attach concepts to words. It is the concept of "spiritual death" that is in question. "Trinty" is a non-biblical word giving us a concept that appears to be biblical. Ditto for "perichoresis." This may not hold true for "spiritual death," a wording that seems to divide man into components that are capable of life in and of themselves, separate from the whole man. Such a doctrine may even deny the bodily resurrection. That is the issue. But don't answer my question. That's ok. JD