subject:"RE\: \[TruthTalk\] The Mediation of Christ"

In a message dated 5/31/2004 11:04:42 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

If you beat a child with a rod he will not die (in most cases) but you will likely be 'charged'. (Penal code)


You're on a role.

J

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

In a message dated 5/31/2004 10:32:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

once heard the prevailing (read TT) understanding of the Atonement (see also Gibson's movie) as "Divine Child Abuse".

Another reason why I like you.   

John

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

In a message dated 5/31/2004 10:32:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Proverbs 23: 13-14  Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
You shall beat him with a rid, and deliver his soul from Hell.
God


Maybe G is not talking about this  -- but that is the scripture I had in mind.  We ahve severn children and 11 grandchildren.  I am crazy about each and every grandchild. They are great  ---   and spoiled.   They interrupt on a whim  -- they cry and whine until they get their way.   They are exhausting.  The parents (our children) do the "time out" thing (which is good but not the only or even the best solution).  When the kids come over to gramps house, and they do like being here, well gramps has a different way of dealing with them.  

I don't spank the grandkids  -- that is the parents job.  But they sit at the dinner table until they have eaten the food that they served to themselves  -- if it takes all afternoon, so be it.  That sort of thing.   Its kind of fun from gramps.  

Anyway  - we are all probably on the same page on this one.  

God bless

John

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

In a message dated 5/31/2004 10:17:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

It's a 2 part issue, Gramps: 
 
Paddling a child which is not prohibited, biblically, relative to it's whole message
  
'Paddling' unto perfection, in the context, below, which is a hideous human hubris, biblically
  


So I still beat my grandkids -- right?

Pops Smithson

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-31 Thread Lance Muir




If you beat a child with a rod he will not die (in 
most cases) but you will likely be 'charged'. (Penal code)

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Terry Clifton 
  
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Sent: May 31, 2004 13:31
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of 
  Christ
  Proverbs 23: 13-14  Do not withhold correction from a 
  child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.You shall beat him 
  with a rid, and deliver his soul from 
  Hell.God[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

It's a 2 part issue, Gramps: 

 
Paddling a child which is not 
prohibited, biblically, relative to it's whole 
message
 
'Paddling' unto perfection, in the 
context, below, which is a hideous human hubris, 
biblically
 
    g.o.
 
 
 
On Sun, 30 May 2004 05:47:20 EDT 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:02:00 PM Pacific 
  Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:
  [G ~ P 235 
  wrote:]
  Yes; and what 
about the  'cult/s' of 'believers' 'sanctifying' the children with 
belts and boards; unto 'perfection' by paddling, eh?  Morman or not, 
they believe this abusive madness is theological;  and, perhaps it 
is, upon reflection, but it sure ain't biblical
  Grandpa S wrote:
  Just about as biblical as you can get, I 
  believe.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-31 Thread Lance Muir

I once heard the prevailing (read TT) understanding 
of the Atonement (see also Gibson's movie) as "Divine Child Abuse".

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

  Sent: May 31, 2004 13:18
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of 
  Christ

  It's a 2 part issue, Gramps: 

  Paddling a child which is not 
  prohibited, biblically, relative to it's whole 
  message

  'Paddling' unto perfection, in the 
  context, below, which is a hideous human hubris, 
  biblically

      g.o.

  On Sun, 30 May 2004 05:47:20 EDT 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:02:00 PM Pacific 
Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[G 
~ P 235 
wrote:]
Yes; and what about the  'cult/s' of 'believers' 
  'sanctifying' the children with belts and boards; unto 'perfection' by 
  paddling, eh?  Morman or not, they 
  believe this abusive madness is theological;  and, perhaps it is, 
  upon reflection, but it sure ain't biblical
Grandpa S wrote:
Just about as biblical as you can get, I 
believe.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-31 Thread Terry Clifton





Proverbs 23: 13-14  Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you
beat him with a rod, he will not die.
You shall beat him with a rid, and deliver his soul from Hell.
God


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  It's a 2 part issue,
Gramps: 
   
  Paddling a child which is
not prohibited, biblically, relative to it's whole message
   
  'Paddling' unto
perfection, in the context, below, which is a hideous human hubris,
biblically
   
      g.o.
   
   
   
  On Sun, 30 May 2004 05:47:20
EDT [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:02:00 PM Pacific
Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



[G ~
P 235 wrote:]

 
Yes; and
what about the  'cult/s' of 'believers' 'sanctifying' the children with
belts and boards; unto 'perfection' by paddling, eh?
  
  Morman or
not, they believe this abusive madness is theological;  and, perhaps it
is, upon reflection, but it sure ain't biblical
  


Grandpa S wrote:

Just about as biblical as you can get, I believe.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-31 Thread ttxpress




It's a 2 part issue, Gramps: 

 
Paddling a child which is not 
prohibited, biblically, relative to it's whole 
message
 
'Paddling' unto perfection, in the 
context, below, which is a hideous human hubris, 
biblically
 
    g.o.
 
 
 
On Sun, 30 May 2004 05:47:20 EDT 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  In 
  a message dated 5/28/2004 3:02:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  [G ~ P 235 wrote:]
  Yes; 
and what about the  'cult/s' of 'believers' 'sanctifying' the children 
with belts and boards; unto 'perfection' by paddling, eh?  
Morman 
or not, they believe this abusive madness is theological;  and, perhaps 
it is, upon reflection, but it sure ain't biblical
  Grandpa S wrote:
  Just about as biblical as you can get, I 
  believe.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-30 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:02:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Yes; and what about the  'cult/s' of 'believers' 'sanctifying' the children with belts and boards; unto 'perfection' by paddling, eh?
  
Morman or not, they believe this abusive madness is theological;  and, perhaps it is, upon reflection, but it sure ain't biblical


Just about as biblical as you can get, I believe.  It can be over done -- but for some kids it is necessary.   Keeping children safe sometimes requires physical disipline  --  or do you give the kid time out after he has walked into the street or after he has stuck his finger into a light socket?  

Grandpa  Smithson

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-30 Thread Dave Hansen



 
michael douglas wrote:
Michael D: Thank you 
Dave H for reposting this. I think Kevin's
point highlights the seeming dilemma inherent in David's previous and current
positions.
DAVEH:  There is no dilemma
for me, MichaelD.  I know what I believe, and am very comfortable
with those beliefs.  Though some TTers want to put a different spin
on those beliefs to portray them negatively, I am not concerned because
much of what they say is either not true, or misconstrued.
   
Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
DAVEH: 
Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation is for any believer
in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a group labeled as
a cult.Or that "BELIEVER"believes in the Jesus that is Satan's
brother.
believes in the MAN Jesus who worked his way upward to become a god(he
was a man who progressed to become a god, not the God who lowered himself
to become a man) believes in a Jesus that had to score a wife or wives
(plural) to become a god. who was married in a Temple and performed all
those SECRET Temple rituals, including baptism for the dead. believes in
a Jesus that has a "Heavenly Mother" believes in a Jesus that has a Father,
that had a Father, that had a Father, AD Infinitum... believes in a Jesus
who had a better plan than his Brother Lucifer's plan at the "council of
the gods" believes in a Jesus who is the "LITERAL" son of Elohim the Father
& Mary That Jesus is a counterfiet and idol of yours & Jo
Smiths imagination. He could not save anybody, he does not exist. He can
not speak nor hear, can not answer prayers. 
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Michael
D: Hansen, I think I inadvertently deleted your last response to me. Can
you please resend.
DAVEH:  I think this is the last one I posted, MichaelD.
++
Dave wrote:
 
michael douglas wrote:

DAVEH: 
I haven't been following this thread too close, so I may not fully understand
what comments you are expecting of me, Michael.
Michael D: My main reason for anticipating your
response is in the light of David not categorically alleging that your
concept of Jesus prevents you from achieving eternal life (as far as I
remember in past discussions) whereas others affirmed just that. The statements
in view from him here, however, seem to have serious implications for LDS
hopes for any salvation if their status remains quo (based on his stated
position).

DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation is for
any believer in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a group
labeled as a cult.




--
 ~~~
 Dave Hansen
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.langlitz.com
 ~~~
 If you wish to receive
 things I find interesting,
 I maintain Five email lists...
 JOKESTER, OPINIONS, LDS,
 STUFF and MOTORCYCLE.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-29 Thread Terry Clifton


BTW  I am enjoying the recent atmosphere - it is edifying!  Laura
=
Me too!  Maybe it is a sign that we are growing.  I like to think so anyway.
Terry

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-29 Thread Slade Henson




I know many people who believe Yeshua lived, 
breathed, and walked the Earth. In this context, they believe IN Yeshua. Is it 
safe to assume all Protestant/Catholic Christianity fits in this 
category?
 
 
However, many of these people do 
not believe what Yeshua said: 

  They do not believe He is the promised 
  Messiah.
  They do not believe in his 
  contextual/cultural statements that declares His divinity (He was a good and 
  holy man who was assigned the Messianic position through his 
  piety).
  They do not believe the data proving His 
  resurrection.
  They do not believe His sacrifice was once 
  and for all for all sin (unintentional AND intentional) -- or that a sacrifice 
  is even needed.
  They do not believe that He and the Father 
  are One and that there is only One God.
  Many more options exist.
They do not BELIEVE Him. Is it safe to 
assume most of Protestant/Catholic Christianity fits in this 
category?
 
 
-- slade
 
P.S. The explanation Terry gave is a good 
one as well, or even a superior one.

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Saturday, 29 May, 2004 
  00:26To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: 
  [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
  
  In a message dated 5/28/2004 9:27:59 PM Central Daylight Time, 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
There 
seems to be a confusion in nomenclature: 
 
There is a difference between BELIEVING IN Yeshua and 
BELIEVING Yeshua.
 
Perhaps 
this is the difference everyone is stepping around.
 
-- 
slade
  What are the differences?  Just curious.  
Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-29 Thread LaurHamm




In a message dated 5/29/2004 7:27:51 AM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


What are the differences?  Just curious.  Laura-Good morning Laura:There are people called atheists who do not believe that there is a GodThere are people who are called agnostics that think there may or may not be a God. In either case, they are not really interested in pursuing the issue.There are people called believers that believe that Jesus was who He is and did what He did.  Satan is in this category.There are people who believe what Jesus teaches. That Jesus is not only their savior, but their Master. They no longer live to please themselves.  They have died to self and now live to please Him.  They are saved.I suspect that you would fall into this last category.Terry
I guess I am just naive.  I don't understand how you can believe Jesus was who he was and did what he did and not believe and follow what he teaches.  I guess it's what some refer to as head knowledge vs. heart knowledge.  BTW  I am enjoying the recent atmosphere - it is edifying!  Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-29 Thread Terry Clifton





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  In a message dated 5/28/2004 9:27:59 PM Central Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
There seems to be a confusion in nomenclature: 
 
There is a difference between BELIEVING
IN Yeshua and BELIEVING Yeshua.
 
Perhaps this is the difference everyone is stepping
around.
 
-- slade
  
  
  What are the differences?  Just curious.  Laura

-
Good morning Laura:
There are people called atheists who do not believe that there is a God
There are people who are called agnostics that think there may or may
not be a God. In either case, they are not really interested in
pursuing the issue.
There are people called believers that believe that Jesus was who He is
and did what He did.  Satan is in this category.
There are people who believe what Jesus teaches. That Jesus is not only
their savior, but their Master. They no longer live to please
themselves.  They have died to self and now live to please Him.  They
are saved.

I suspect that you would fall into this last category.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread LaurHamm




In a message dated 5/28/2004 9:27:59 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

There seems to be a confusion in nomenclature: 
 
There is a difference between BELIEVING IN Yeshua and BELIEVING Yeshua.
 
Perhaps this is the difference everyone is stepping around.
 
-- slade
What are the differences?  Just curious.  Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread Terry Clifton





Slade Henson wrote:

  
  
  There seems to be a confusion in nomenclature: 
   
  There is a difference between
BELIEVING IN Yeshua and BELIEVING Yeshua.
   
  Perhaps this is the difference everyone is stepping
around.
   
  -- slade

---
I think you nailed it Slade.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread Knpraise



Michael D -- could you use a different color on your print.   I have a he --  he--  he--  heck of a time reading your posts.  

John


In a message dated 5/28/2004 3:03:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Michael D: Thank you  Dave H for reposting this. 
 
I think Kevin's point highlights the seeming dilemma inherent in David's previous and current positions.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread ttxpress




pretty fine hair-splittin' below..sounds 
perfect as Iz'd say  G
--
On Fri, 28 May 2004 18:09:07 -0400 "Slade 
Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  There seems to be a confusion in nomenclature: 
  
   
  There is a difference between BELIEVING IN Yeshua 
  and BELIEVING Yeshua.
   
  Perhaps this is the difference everyone is stepping 
  around.
   
  -- slade
  
-Original Message-From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Kevin DeeganSent: 
Friday, 28 May, 2004 14:59To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: 
Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of 
Christian folks think salvation is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if 
that believer is a member of a group labeled as a 
cult.
Or that 
"BELIEVER"..

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread ttxpress




:) <--vbG>
 
On Fri, 28 May 2004 17:59:38 -0400 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  LOOK it speaks english!!
  A heartfelt AMEN! to pretty much every word 
  spoken.
   Lance
   .   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: May 28, 2004 17:49
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation 
of Christ


On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:58:39 -0700 
(PDT) Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of 
  Christian folks think salvation is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if 
  that believer is a member of a group labeled as a 
  cult.
  Or that "BELIEVER" believes in the 
  Jesus that is Satan's brother...
   
  ||
 
 
Yes; and what about the  'cult/s' 
of 'believers' 'sanctifying' the children with belts and 
boards; unto 'perfection' by paddling, eh?
 
Morman or not, they believe this abusive 
madness is theological;  and, perhaps it is, upon reflection, 
but it sure ain't biblical
 
In truth it amounts to radically 
usurping the work of the Spirit who sanctifies--biblically--and anyone who 
knows the Spirit of the Lord in the Bible knows that His presence entails 'liberty', not 
enslavement, not even by priests, not even by family, nor by states 
(not even Egypt or Americas' principalities and powers), nor by 
angels, nor even by death itself..
 
This is Lesson 1 taught through Moses--God, 
in Christ, who is Love sanctifies through Love reitierated 
and expounded by Luke, John, Peter, and Paul
 
Now, on their behalf, who in their 
right mind clambers up to his Father with his pant/ie/s off 
and hands him a whip saying 'spank me hard Daddy, I need it so 
baaad...my conscience ain't very good right now...i ain't per-fect enuf, so 
whip me as much as you need to, pleeeaase, 
Daddy...'
 
And, if your child feels this guilty, are 
you actually gonna comply with your child and (sickly) assume 
that the 'perfect' Dad exists and God himself ain't 
him?
 
Only 'cultists' could conceive of such a 
myth and sanctify themselves by such vengeance and 
violence
 
And only Satan could enjoy 
it
 
 G ~ p 
235
 
   G ~ P 235

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread Slade Henson




There 
seems to be a confusion in nomenclature: 
 
There is a difference between BELIEVING IN Yeshua and BELIEVING 
Yeshua.
 
Perhaps this is the difference everyone is stepping 
around.
 
-- 
slade

  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Kevin 
  DeeganSent: Friday, 28 May, 2004 14:59To: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation 
  of Christ
  DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation 
  is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a 
  group labeled as a cult.
  Or that "BELIEVER" 
  believes in the Jesus that is Satan's brother.believes in the MAN 
  Jesus who worked his way upward to become a god
  (he was a man who progressed to become a god, not the God who lowered 
  himself to become a man)
  believes in a Jesus that had to score a wife or wives (plural) to become 
  a god. who was married in a Temple and performed all those SECRET Temple 
  rituals, including baptism for the dead.
  believes in a Jesus that has a "Heavenly Mother"
  believes in a Jesus that has a Father, that had a Father, that had a 
  Father, AD Infinitum...
  believes in a Jesus who had a better plan than his Brother Lucifer's plan 
  at the "council of the gods"
  believes in a Jesus who is the "LITERAL" son of Elohim the Father & 
  Mary 
   
  That Jesus is a counterfiet and idol of yours & Jo Smiths 
  imagination. He could not save anybody, he does not exist. He can not speak 
  nor hear, can not answer prayers.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Thank you Dave H for reposting this.
I think Kevin's point highlights the seeming dilemma inherent in David's previous and current positions.
Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

DAVEH: Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a group labeled as a cult.
Or that "BELIEVER"
believes in the Jesus that is Satan's brother.believes in the MAN Jesus who worked his way upward to become a god
(he was a man who progressed to become a god, not the God who lowered himself to become a man) believes in a Jesus that had to score a wife or wives (plural) to become a god. who was married in a Temple and performed all those SECRET Temple rituals, including baptism for the dead. believes in a Jesus that has a "Heavenly Mother" believes in a Jesus that has a Father, that had a Father, that had a Father, AD Infinitum... believes in a Jesus who had a better plan than his Brother Lucifer's plan at the "council of the gods" believes in a Jesus who is the "LITERAL" son of Elohim the Father & Mary
That Jesus is a counterfiet and idol of yours & Jo Smiths imagination. He could not save anybody, he does not exist. He can not speak nor hear, can not answer prayers.
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Michael D: Hansen, I think I inadvertently deleted your last response to me. Can you please resend.DAVEH: I think this is the last one I posted, MichaelD.++Dave wrote:
michael douglas wrote:

DAVEH: I haven't been following this thread too close, so I may not fully understand what comments you are expecting of me, Michael.
Michael D: My main reason for anticipating your response is in the light of David not categorically alleging that your concept of Jesus prevents you from achieving eternal life (as far as I remember in past discussions) whereas others affirmed just that. The statements in view from him here, however, seem to have serious implications for LDS hopes for any salvation if their status remains quo (based on his stated position).DAVEH: Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a group labeled as a cult.

Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
today! Download Messenger Now

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread Lance Muir




LOOK it speaks english!!
A heartfelt AMEN! to pretty much every word 
spoken.
 Lance
 .   

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  
  Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: May 28, 2004 17:49
  Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of 
  Christ
  
  
  On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:58:39 -0700 (PDT) 
  Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
  
DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of 
Christian folks think salvation is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if 
that believer is a member of a group labeled as a 
cult.
Or that "BELIEVER" believes in the 
Jesus that is Satan's brother...
 
||
   
   
  Yes; and what about the  'cult/s' 
  of 'believers' 'sanctifying' the children with belts and 
  boards; unto 'perfection' by paddling, eh?
   
  Morman or not, they believe this abusive 
  madness is theological;  and, perhaps it is, upon reflection, 
  but it sure ain't biblical
   
  In truth it amounts to radically 
  usurping the work of the Spirit who sanctifies--biblically--and anyone who 
  knows the Spirit of the Lord in the Bible knows that His presence entails 'liberty', not 
  enslavement, not even by priests, not even by family, nor by states (not 
  even Egypt or Americas' principalities and powers), nor by angels, 
  nor even by death itself..
   
  This is Lesson 1 taught through Moses--God, 
  in Christ, who is Love sanctifies through Love reitierated 
  and expounded by Luke, John, Peter, and Paul
   
  Now, on their behalf, who in their right 
  mind clambers up to his Father with his pant/ie/s off and hands 
  him a whip saying 'spank me hard Daddy, I need it so baaad...my 
  conscience ain't very good right now...i ain't per-fect enuf, so whip 
  me as much as you need to, pleeeaase, 
Daddy...'
   
  And, if your child feels this guilty, are you 
  actually gonna comply with your child and (sickly) assume 
  that the 'perfect' Dad exists and God himself ain't 
  him?
   
  Only 'cultists' could conceive of such a myth 
  and sanctify themselves by such vengeance and 
  violence
   
  And only Satan could enjoy 
  it
   
   G ~ p 
  235

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread ttxpress





On Fri, 28 May 2004 11:58:39 -0700 (PDT) 
Kevin Deegan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

  DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of 
  Christian folks think salvation is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if 
  that believer is a member of a group labeled as a 
  cult.
  Or that "BELIEVER" believes in the Jesus 
  that is Satan's brother...
   
  ||
 
 
Yes; and what about the  'cult/s' of 
'believers' 'sanctifying' the children with belts and boards; 
unto 'perfection' by paddling, eh?
 
Morman or not, they believe this abusive 
madness is theological;  and, perhaps it is, upon reflection, 
but it sure ain't biblical
 
In truth it amounts to radically usurping 
the work of the Spirit who sanctifies--biblically--and anyone who knows the 
Spirit of the Lord in the Bible knows that His presence entails 'liberty', not 
enslavement, not even by priests, not even by family, nor by states (not 
even Egypt or Americas' principalities and powers), nor by angels, nor 
even by death itself..
 
This is Lesson 1 taught through Moses--God, in 
Christ, who is Love sanctifies through Love reitierated 
and expounded by Luke, John, Peter, and Paul
 
Now, on their behalf, who in their right 
mind clambers up to his Father with his pant/ie/s off and hands 
him a whip saying 'spank me hard Daddy, I need it so baaad...my 
conscience ain't very good right now...i ain't per-fect enuf, so whip me as 
much as you need to, pleeeaase, Daddy...'
 
And, if your child feels this guilty, are you 
actually gonna comply with your child and (sickly) assume 
that the 'perfect' Dad exists and God himself ain't 
him?
 
Only 'cultists' could conceive of such a myth 
and sanctify themselves by such vengeance and 
violence
 
And only Satan could enjoy 
it
 
 G ~ p 
235

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-28 Thread Kevin Deegan

DAVEH: Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation is for any believer in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a group labeled as a cult.
Or that "BELIEVER"
believes in the Jesus that is Satan's brother.believes in the MAN Jesus who worked his way upward to become a god
(he was a man who progressed to become a god, not the God who lowered himself to become a man)
believes in a Jesus that had to score a wife or wives (plural) to become a god. who was married in a Temple and performed all those SECRET Temple rituals, including baptism for the dead.
believes in a Jesus that has a "Heavenly Mother"
believes in a Jesus that has a Father, that had a Father, that had a Father, AD Infinitum...
believes in a Jesus who had a better plan than his Brother Lucifer's plan at the "council of the gods"
believes in a Jesus who is the "LITERAL" son of Elohim the Father & Mary
That Jesus is a counterfiet and idol of yours & Jo Smiths imagination. He could not save anybody, he does not exist. He can not speak nor hear, can not answer prayers.
Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Michael D: Hansen, I think I inadvertently deleted your last response to me. Can you please resend.DAVEH: I think this is the last one I posted, MichaelD.++Dave wrote:
michael douglas wrote:

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-27 Thread Dave





Michael D: Hansen, I think I inadvertently
deleted your last response to me. Can you please resend.

DAVEH:  I think this is the last one I posted, MichaelD.

++
Dave wrote:

  
  
  
michael douglas wrote:
  


  DAVEH:  I haven't been following this thread too close, so I
may
not fully understand what comments you are expecting of me, Michael.  
  Michael D: My main reason for
anticipating
your response is in the light of David not categorically alleging that
your concept of Jesus prevents you from achieving eternal life (as far
as I remember in past discussions) whereas others affirmed just that.
The statements in view from him here, however, seem to have serious
implications for LDS hopes for any salvation if their status remains
quo (based on his stated position).


  
DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation is for any
believer in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a group
labeled as a cult.


-- 
~~~
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-27 Thread michael douglas

Michael D: Hansen, I think I inadvertently deleted your last response to me. Can you please resend.Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
David Miller wrote:
John S. wrote:

Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually
correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?

No. Salvation is not based upon intellect and understanding. This is
why I was concerned about your perspective about faith being
intellectual. As we grow in Christ, our understanding increases. Just
as good works are a product of faith, so also is proper understanding a
result of faith in Christ.

I'm saying that we cannot reject what Jesus taught about anything. If
we believe in Jesus, we will conform our lives to him in all things, in
how we live, how we think, and how we understand all things. If anyone
says that he does not believe in hell, and then he is shown how Jesus
did believe in hell and taught it to be a place where the wicked are
tormented, then that person would need to conform his ideas of hell to
what Jesus taught. Otherwise, he really does not believe in Jesus.
DAVEH: Hmwith all the conflicting beliefs as to what Jesus taught, it would seem like you are suggesting a lot of folks who think they are believers, really aren't believers and will end up being tossed into the lake of fire for having (some) misconceptions about what Jesus taught. Is that correct, DavidM?
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
--
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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~~~
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things I find interesting,
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-27 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 5/26/2004 7:28:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

DAVEH:  Hmwith all the conflicting beliefs as to what Jesus taught, it would seem like you are suggesting a lot of folks who think they are believers, really aren't believers and will end up being tossed into the lake of fire for having (some) misconceptions about what Jesus taught.  Is that correct, DavidM?


Ditta from me, as well.   What specific doctrines are effected by your approach, DavidM?

John

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-27 Thread Knpraise

I will have to think about your explanation.  Sorry I don't fire something back right away but it is my busy season (until winter, I hope) so it is 5 am to whenever and for this 59 year old guy, it is tough.  I have some material on The Mediation of Christ by Torrance ( a God send and a great blessing). I have stayed away from the discussions on Torrance but soon, I will be up to speed.   

Again, thanks for your reply, David.   I will respond.  

John

In a message dated 5/26/2004 7:02:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John S. wrote:
>Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually 
>correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?  

No.  Salvation is not based upon intellect and understanding.  This is
why I was concerned about your perspective about faith being
intellectual.  As we grow in Christ, our understanding increases.  Just
as good works are a product of faith, so also is proper understanding a
result of faith in Christ.

I'm saying that we cannot reject what Jesus taught about anything.  If
we believe in Jesus, we will conform our lives to him in all things, in
how we live, how we think, and how we understand all things.  If anyone
says that he does not believe in hell, and then he is shown how Jesus
did believe in hell and taught it to be a place where the wicked are
tormented, then that person would need to conform his ideas of hell to
what Jesus taught.  Otherwise, he really does not believe in Jesus.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son."  (2 John 1:9 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-27 Thread Knpraise


Interesting commentary from DaveH and a good one, I think.  

Terry, I couldn't agree with your comment more.   Faith without works is dead but thinking and doing are two different things.   Incidently everyone, I made no statement ---  I only axed a question.   


In a message dated 5/25/2004 9:29:48 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 5/24/2004 11:39:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So..if Christians think they can be saved by their belief in Jesus, then they must surely believe that congruence of belief (and understanding and keeping his commandments) is not necessary for salvation.



You would think this to be obvious but it, apparently, is not.  

John
-The devil believes in Jesus.  The demons believe in Jesus.  If you think that is all that is necessary for salvation is to believe in Jesus, you will spend eternity with a miserable crowd.
Terry

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-26 Thread David Miller

DAVEH:  
> ... with all the conflicting beliefs as to what Jesus taught, 
> it would seem like you are suggesting a lot of folks who 
> think they are believers, really aren't believers ...

Right...

DaveH wrote:
> ... and will end up being tossed into the lake of fire for 
> having (some) misconceptions about what Jesus taught.  Is 
> that correct, DavidM?

No.  The only reason for tossing anyone into the lake of fire is sin.
Nobody will be cast into the lake of fire because of misconceptions.

People may be pardoned for their past sins by trusting in Jesus Christ.
The evidence that such trust is being exercised is the experience of
righteousness, light, understanding, peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-26 Thread Dave







David Miller wrote:

  John S. wrote:
  
  
Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually 
correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?  

  
  
No.  Salvation is not based upon intellect and understanding.  This is
why I was concerned about your perspective about faith being
intellectual.  As we grow in Christ, our understanding increases.  Just
as good works are a product of faith, so also is proper understanding a
result of faith in Christ.

I'm saying that we cannot reject what Jesus taught about anything.  If
we believe in Jesus, we will conform our lives to him in all things, in
how we live, how we think, and how we understand all things.  If anyone
says that he does not believe in hell, and then he is shown how Jesus
did believe in hell and taught it to be a place where the wicked are
tormented, then that person would need to conform his ideas of hell to
what Jesus taught.  Otherwise, he really does not believe in Jesus.
  

DAVEH:  Hmwith all the conflicting beliefs as to what Jesus
taught, it would seem like you are suggesting a lot of folks who think
they are believers, really aren't believers and will end up being
tossed into the lake of fire for having (some) misconceptions about
what Jesus taught.  Is that correct, DavidM?

  
"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son."  (2 John 1:9 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
  


-- 
~~~
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-26 Thread David Miller

John S. wrote:
> Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually 
> correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?  

No.  Salvation is not based upon intellect and understanding.  This is
why I was concerned about your perspective about faith being
intellectual.  As we grow in Christ, our understanding increases.  Just
as good works are a product of faith, so also is proper understanding a
result of faith in Christ.

I'm saying that we cannot reject what Jesus taught about anything.  If
we believe in Jesus, we will conform our lives to him in all things, in
how we live, how we think, and how we understand all things.  If anyone
says that he does not believe in hell, and then he is shown how Jesus
did believe in hell and taught it to be a place where the wicked are
tormented, then that person would need to conform his ideas of hell to
what Jesus taught.  Otherwise, he really does not believe in Jesus.

"Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,
hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both
the Father and the Son."  (2 John 1:9 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-25 Thread Dave







michael douglas wrote:

  
  
DAVEH:  I haven't been following this thread too close, so I may
not fully understand what comments you are expecting of me, Michael.  
Michael D: My main reason for anticipating
your response is in the light of David not categorically alleging that
your concept of Jesus prevents you from achieving eternal life (as far
as I remember in past discussions) whereas others affirmed just that.
The statements in view from him here, however, seem to have serious
implications for LDS hopes for any salvation if their status remains
quo (based on his stated position).
  
  

DAVEH:  Seems like a lot of Christian folks think salvation is for any
believer in Jesus, excepting if that believer is a member of a group
labeled as a cult.

-- 
~~~
Dave Hansen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.langlitz.com
~~~
If you wish to receive
things I find interesting,
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-25 Thread michael douglas

Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
michael douglas wrote:

David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

John wrote:> I don't understand this observation. Doesn't the reality of hell (whatever that is) exist apart from our consideration? Why would God punish us for being wrong in our understanding of eternal judgment. And if we have to think correctly on this subject, would not correct thinking be >required about all of biblical doctrine? David M wrote: Faith is based upon knowledge. We cannot just make-up whatever kind of Jesus we think would be nice and then believe in that made-up Jesus. (I assume that you are asserting this regardless of who comes up with the concept of Jesus one is believing in...)When we believe in Jesus, we abide in his doctrine and in his message.If Jesus taught that there is eternal judgment of the sinner, and we say, "I don't believe that," then we really don't believe in
Jesus. We can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the teaching of Jesus.
Michael D: David, It would be interesting to see Dave H's response to these pronouncements.
DAVEH: I haven't been following this thread too close, so I may not fully understand what comments you are expecting of me, Michael.
Michael D: My main reason for anticipating your response is in the light of David not categorically alleging that your concept of Jesus prevents you from achieving eternal life (as far as I remember in past discussions) whereas others affirmed just that. The statements in view from him here, however, seem to have serious implications for LDS hopes for any salvation if their status remains quo (based on his stated position).
However, it does seem to me that there is such a diversity in opinions as to what various Christians believe about the doctrines of Christ, let alone about the nature of Jesus and God.well, I'm not sure many Christians actually agree on all points.
Clearly, we don't.
So..if Christians think they can be saved by their belief in Jesus, then they must surely believe that congruence of belief (and understanding and keeping his commandments) is not necessary for salvation.
Congruence is not necessary for salvation (as you would have read on TT before).

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-25 Thread Terry Clifton





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 5/24/2004 11:39:14 PM Pacific
Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
  So..if Christians think they can be saved by their
belief in Jesus, then they must surely believe that congruence of
belief (and understanding and keeping his commandments) is not
necessary for salvation.

  
  
  
You would think this to be obvious but it, apparently, is not.  
  
John
-
The devil believes in Jesus.  The demons believe in Jesus.  If you
think that is all that is necessary for salvation is to believe in
Jesus, you will spend eternity with a miserable crowd.
Terry

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-25 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 5/24/2004 11:39:14 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So..if Christians think they can be saved by their belief in Jesus, then they must surely believe that congruence of belief (and understanding and keeping his commandments) is not necessary for salvation.



You would think this to be obvious but it, apparently, is not.  

John

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread Dave

michael douglas wrote:

David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

David M wrote: Faith is based upon knowledge.
We cannot just make-up whatever kind of Jesus
we think would be nice and then believe in that made-up Jesus. (I assume that you are asserting this regardless of
who comes up with the concept of Jesus one is believing in...)
When we believe in Jesus, we abide in his doctrine and in
his message.

If Jesus taught that there is eternal
judgment of the sinner, and we say, "I don't believe that," then we
really don't believe in Jesus. We can't believe in
Jesus and not believe in the teaching of Jesus.

Michael D: David, It would be interesting
to see Dave H's response to these pronouncements.

DAVEH: I haven't been following this thread too close, so I may not
fully understand what comments you are expecting of me, Michael.
However, it does seem to me that there is such a diversity in opinions
as to what various Christians believe about the doctrines of Christ,
let alone about the nature of Jesus and God.well, I'm not sure many
Christians actually agree on all points. So..if Christians think
they can be saved by their belief in Jesus, then they must surely
believe that congruence of belief (and understanding and keeping his
commandments) is not necessary for salvation.

Does that answer your question, Michael?

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
~~~
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[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 5/24/2004 11:24:50 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:



Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?  

J 

I must be missing the boat here.  I thought David was saying that  Jesus taught about hell being a real place  - then if we say we believe Jesus  - we need to acknowledge that it is a real place.  You can't just pick and choose when you are talking about the teachings of Jesus.  Either you believe or you don't!  Laura


I would agree, on a personal level, with this conclusion.. but my question remains unanwered.

J

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread ShieldsFamily









 

 






Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually correct on the teaching
of hell in order to be saved?  

J 







I must be missing the boat here.  I thought David was
saying that  Jesus taught about hell being a real place  - then if we
say we believe Jesus  - we need to acknowledge that it is a real
place.  You can't just pick and choose when you are talking about the
teachings of Jesus.  Either you believe or you don't!  Laura

[ShieldsFamily] 

 

Good point, Laura, and so true.  It’s not that “all the right
doctrine” is a litmus test: it is just an indication
of whether or not you take Jesus at His word (ie:
Believe).  Izzy

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread LaurHamm




In a message dated 5/24/2004 1:16:35 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:31:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
John wrote:>I don't understand this observation.  Doesn't the >reality of hell (whatever that is) exist apart from >our consideration?   Why would God punish us for being >wrong in our understanding of  eternal judgment.   >And if we have to think correctly on this subject, >would not correct thinking be required about all >of biblical doctrine?  Faith is based upon knowledge.  We cannot just make-up whatever kind ofJesus we think would be nice and then believe in that made-up Jesus.When we believe in Jesus, we abide in his doctrine and in his message.If Jesus taught that there is eternal judgment of the sinner, and wesay, "I don't believe that," then we really don't believe in Jesus.  Wecan't believe in Jesus and not believe in the teaching of Jesus. Peace be with you.David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?  J 
I must be missing the boat here.  I thought David was saying that  Jesus taught about hell being a real place  - then if we say we believe Jesus  - we need to acknowledge that it is a real place.  You can't just pick and choose when you are talking about the teachings of Jesus.  Either you believe or you don't!  Laura

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 5/24/2004 8:31:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

John wrote:
>I don't understand this observation.  Doesn't the 
>reality of hell (whatever that is) exist apart from 
>our consideration?   Why would God punish us for being 
>wrong in our understanding of  eternal judgment.   
>And if we have to think correctly on this subject, 
>would not correct thinking be required about all 
>of biblical doctrine?  

Faith is based upon knowledge.  We cannot just make-up whatever kind of
Jesus we think would be nice and then believe in that made-up Jesus.
When we believe in Jesus, we abide in his doctrine and in his message.

If Jesus taught that there is eternal judgment of the sinner, and we
say, "I don't believe that," then we really don't believe in Jesus.  We
can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the teaching of Jesus. 

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

Soo, you are saying that we must be intellectually correct on the teaching of hell in order to be saved?  

J

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread michael douglas

David Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-24 Thread David Miller

John wrote:
> I don't understand this observation.  Doesn't the 
> reality of hell (whatever that is) exist apart from 
> our consideration?   Why would God punish us for being 
> wrong in our understanding of  eternal judgment.   
> And if we have to think correctly on this subject, 
> would not correct thinking be required about all 
> of biblical doctrine?  

Faith is based upon knowledge.  We cannot just make-up whatever kind of
Jesus we think would be nice and then believe in that made-up Jesus.
When we believe in Jesus, we abide in his doctrine and in his message.

If Jesus taught that there is eternal judgment of the sinner, and we
say, "I don't believe that," then we really don't believe in Jesus.  We
can't believe in Jesus and not believe in the teaching of Jesus. 

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-23 Thread Charles Perry Locke

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In a message dated 5/20/2004 11:23:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> I'm not sure anyone can be a "genuine" Believer (in God's definition) if
> they don't believe in God's promises of eternal judgment for sinners who
> reject the Savior.  I am assuming you do believe in this.  Izzy
>
Hi Izzy:
I don't understand this observation.  Doesn't the reality of hell (whatever
that is) exist apart from our consideration?   Why would God punish us for
being wrong in our understanding of  eternal judgment.   And if we have to 
think
correctly on this subject, would not correct thinking be required about all 
of
biblical doctrine?

John
  John, You make a good point. I do not beleive that *any* christian has 
*all* doctrine 100% right. But the question arises as to how much wrong 
doctrine is too much wrong doctrine. Is there a line beyond whiich we are 
not acceptable? Are some of us (Chrstians) too far off in our doctrine to be 
accepted? Are RC's. Are Mormons? Are JW's? Are Muslims? Are Pagans? Can we 
even say for sure?

  If our acceptance is based on our faith in Christ only, then can we 
believe any doctrine, as long as we have faith? If it is based on works, 
then can we believe any doctrine as long as our works are good and plentiful 
enough?

  Regardless of the answer to the questions above, can we have assurance of 
our salvation? What if our doctrine is just one step below acceptable? What 
if our works lack one deed of being enough? How can we have assurance if 
this is so?

  I believe the answer is very simple, otherwise I could not understand it. 
If you "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine 
heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved". Then, 
"whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby 
know we that we are in him". When you walk in the spirit, the fruit is 
"love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, 
temperance".

It can't be as hard as to understand as many want to make it. Otherwise, 
those of us who are not mental and philosophical giants, as many think they 
are, could not be saved. And, "whosoever believeth in him should not perish, 
but have everlasting life". It is that simple.

Perry
--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought 
to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-22 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 5/20/2004 11:23:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

I'm not sure anyone can be a "genuine" Believer (in God's definition) if
they don't believe in God's promises of eternal judgment for sinners who
reject the Savior.  I am assuming you do believe in this.  Izzy



Hi Izzy:
I don't understand this observation.  Doesn't the reality of hell (whatever that is) exist apart from our consideration?   Why would God punish us for being wrong in our understanding of  eternal judgment.   And if we have to think correctly on this subject, would not correct thinking be required about all of biblical doctrine?  

John

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-22 Thread Knpraise

In a message dated 5/19/2004 1:56:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Jonathan, Lance and John,  do any of you consider yourselves to be
Universalists? How do you identify and define your idealology?  Just
(really) wondering. Izzy


Business is awesome but little time to read, study and email.   For me, this is a great question.   I don't know.   I do believe the "plan of salvation" is the profoundly dynamic sacrifice of the Christ.  I am thinking that if we are offered a choice, if we are given reason for the righteousness we practice (instictively) and we reject Christ as proclaimed, we are lost.  The condition of the heart is the key eliment in determining our salvation and this standard is effectual only because the continuous flow of the blood of the Lamb  covers ALL transgressions, presenting us without blemish before the Lord.   Sooo,  I guess I am not a univeralist  .   because and in addition to the flow of the blood, the Lord looks to the heart and conscience of man.  I don't think a universalist would agree with that last statement.  


John

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-22 Thread Slade Henson




Good morning, my friend Izzy
Your question requires different answers depending upon 
the use of the word "are" or "is."
   To answer the "who is the seed of 
Abraham" question:
The promises of God to Avraham and to his Seed (being a 
singular word) are intended for two persons: Avraham and Messiah Yeshua. The 
Seed is Messiah.
 
   To answer the "who are the seed of Abraham" question:
In the lineage charts of Yeshua/Jesus, he (along with 
Avraham and Adam) are considered sons of God. Those who believe are given the 
"right of inheritance" to be called the sons of God and those cannot [should 
not] go on sinning because they have been born again of imperishable seed 
[Messiah Yeshua] through the living and enduring word of God because 
God's seed [the answer from the "who is" question above] resides within 
him/her. Therefore, if you belong to Messiah, you are Avraham's seed and heirs 
according to the promises given to Avraham and to his [singular and 
perfect] Seed. Since we are His descendants, we, then, gain the "right of 
inheritance."
Additional Note: Since we are born again of imperishable 
seed, we, like our believing fathers who walk before us, are imperishable 
because our Father is the God of the living, not the God of the 
dead..
 
(Scriptural References: Matthew 22:32; Luke 3:34-37; John 1:12; Galatians 
3:16, 3:29; 1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9)
 
-- slade-Original 
Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On 
Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Friday, 21 May, 2004 18:56To: 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of 
ChristSlade, So true.  Who do you say are the "seed of 
Abraham"? Izzy

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-21 Thread ShieldsFamily

Slade, So true.  Who do you say are the "seed of Abraham"? Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 3:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Our Creator's word is True. He always keeps His word; therefore we believe
Him. We benefit from the blessings because they are guaranteed.

However, He wishes none to perish. Therefore, how much MORE can we guarantee
the negatives are showered on those who do not believe!

The negatives are for the unbeliever to give them additional [concrete]
proofs of the existence of God.

slade

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, 20 May, 2004 21:50
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

You mean you need only believe the "positive" promises, and not the
"negatives"? Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Is not a believer one who believe in the promises of God? I don't recall
anywhere where one must believe in the curses of God to be a member of the
Ekklesia.

-- slade

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, 20 May, 2004 14:23
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

I'm not sure anyone can be a "genuine" Believer (in God's definition) if
they don't believe in God's promises of eternal judgment for sinners who
reject the Savior.  I am assuming you do believe in this.  Izzy

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-21 Thread ShieldsFamily

Lance, I prescribe a good ophthalmologist.  :-) Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Friday, May 21, 2004 12:11 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Judy: A typo. Heb 2:16 fg. I have my new prescription (glasses) in my
wallet. I doesn't help me much there. Lance
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 21, 2004 13:52
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


>
> Lance wrote:
> Judy: For your consideration: Heb 2:19 following. I guessed that you took
your Bible with you. Lance
>
> jt: Yes I did Lance but my Bible doesn't have any Heb 2:19, it only goes
up to Verse 18 in Hebrews Chapter 2. Did you do that intentionally or is it
a typo?
>
> Judyt
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
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http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


Lance wrote:
Judy: A typo. Heb 2:16 fg. 

jt: He didn't take upon Himself the nature of angels, it was the seed of Abraham; so 
we need to let the Word of God define who the seed of Abraham are.  Is it everyone 
with a physical body who has been born into this world? I don't think so, Romans 9:7,8 
define the seed of Abraham for us. Can we agree on this?

Lance wrote:
Judy: Heb 2:14,15. Lance

jt: Vs.14,15 does not change the meaning of Romans 9:7,8.  Yes he took upon himself a 
body that consisted of flesh and blood so that he might become a sacrifice but they 
are still not all Israel that are Israel; Neither because they are the seed of Abraham 
are they all children; but IN ISAAC shall the seed be called.  That is, they which are 
the children of the flesh, these ARE NOT children of God; but the children of the 
promise are counted for the seed.

judyt



 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-21 Thread Lance Muir

Judy: Heb 2:14,15. Lance
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 21, 2004 15:33
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


>
> Lance wrote:
> Judy: A typo. Heb 2:16 fg. I have my new prescription (glasses) in my
> wallet. I doesn't help me much there. Lance
>
> jt: :) No they won't help from your wallet. He didn't take upon Himself
the nature of angels, it was the seed of Abraham; so we need to let the Word
of God define who the seed of Abraham are.  Is it everyone with a physical
body who has been born into this world? I don't think so, Romans 9:7,8
define the seed of Abraham for us. Can we agree on this?
>
> Judyt
>
>
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


Lance wrote:
Judy: A typo. Heb 2:16 fg. I have my new prescription (glasses) in my
wallet. I doesn't help me much there. Lance

jt: :) No they won't help from your wallet. He didn't take upon Himself the nature of 
angels, it was the seed of Abraham; so we need to let the Word of God define who the 
seed of Abraham are.  Is it everyone with a physical body who has been born into this 
world? I don't think so, Romans 9:7,8 define the seed of Abraham for us. Can we agree 
on this?

Judyt

 
 

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-21 Thread Lance Muir

Judy: A typo. Heb 2:16 fg. I have my new prescription (glasses) in my
wallet. I doesn't help me much there. Lance
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 21, 2004 13:52
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


>
> Lance wrote:
> Judy: For your consideration: Heb 2:19 following. I guessed that you took
your Bible with you. Lance
>
> jt: Yes I did Lance but my Bible doesn't have any Heb 2:19, it only goes
up to Verse 18 in Hebrews Chapter 2. Did you do that intentionally or is it
a typo?
>
> Judyt
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


Lance wrote:
Judy: For your consideration: Heb 2:19 following. I guessed that you took your Bible 
with you. Lance

jt: Yes I did Lance but my Bible doesn't have any Heb 2:19, it only goes up to Verse 
18 in Hebrews Chapter 2. Did you do that intentionally or is it a typo?

Judyt

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-21 Thread Lance Muir

Judy: For your consideration: Heb 2:19 following. I guessed that you took
your Bible with you. Lance
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 21, 2004 12:18
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


>
> Lance wrote:
> Izzy:I do not consider myself a universalist.If, however, God considered
Himself a universalist I wouldn't be angry. I believe that Jesus' Humanity
is vicarious. In the 'second Adam' all of humanity, from the first to the
last, are included. Any exclusion is not of
> God's doing. Isn't it interesting how 'invested' we are in the particular
way we come (through personal reading of Scripture, books, bible study
groups, sermons etc.) to see & then to speak of God's Nature and Gospel.
>
> jt: I don't know about all the books, groups, sermons etc. What I do know
is that first came the natural and then the spiritual. The first man Adam
became a living soul and the second Adam (Christ) a life giving spirit.
Everyone is not included in the 2nd Adam by virtue of physical birth - only
those who have been "Born Again" and have undergone a New Birth becoming
part of a New Creation in Christ. Are we speaking of the same thing
Lance/Izzy?
>
> Grace and Peace, From the LoneStar State
>
> Judyt
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


Lance wrote:
Izzy:I do not consider myself a universalist.If, however, God considered Himself a 
universalist I wouldn't be angry. I believe that Jesus' Humanity is vicarious. In the 
'second Adam' all of humanity, from the first to the last, are included. Any exclusion 
is not of
God's doing. Isn't it interesting how 'invested' we are in the particular way we come 
(through personal reading of Scripture, books, bible study groups, sermons etc.) to 
see & then to speak of God's Nature and Gospel.

jt: I don't know about all the books, groups, sermons etc. What I do know is that 
first came the natural and then the spiritual. The first man Adam became a living soul 
and the second Adam (Christ) a life giving spirit. Everyone is not included in the 2nd 
Adam by virtue of physical birth - only those who have been "Born Again" and have 
undergone a New Birth becoming part of a New Creation in Christ. Are we speaking of 
the same thing Lance/Izzy?

Grace and Peace, From the LoneStar State

Judyt

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-21 Thread Slade Henson

Our Creator's word is True. He always keeps His word; therefore we believe
Him. We benefit from the blessings because they are guaranteed.

However, He wishes none to perish. Therefore, how much MORE can we guarantee
the negatives are showered on those who do not believe!

The negatives are for the unbeliever to give them additional [concrete]
proofs of the existence of God.

slade

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, 20 May, 2004 21:50
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


You mean you need only believe the "positive" promises, and not the
"negatives"? Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Is not a believer one who believe in the promises of God? I don't recall
anywhere where one must believe in the curses of God to be a member of the
Ekklesia.

-- slade

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, 20 May, 2004 14:23
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


I'm not sure anyone can be a "genuine" Believer (in God's definition) if
they don't believe in God's promises of eternal judgment for sinners who
reject the Savior.  I am assuming you do believe in this.  Izzy

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

You mean you need only believe the "positive" promises, and not the
"negatives"? Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 4:13 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Is not a believer one who believe in the promises of God? I don't recall
anywhere where one must believe in the curses of God to be a member of the
Ekklesia.

-- slade

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, 20 May, 2004 14:23
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


I'm not sure anyone can be a "genuine" Believer (in God's definition) if
they don't believe in God's promises of eternal judgment for sinners who
reject the Savior.  I am assuming you do believe in this.  Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Izzy: Answered in the previous post. Do you understand that some, quite
genuine, believers actually do?
 Lance
- Original Message -
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 10:39
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> Lance, Have you read them? Do they represent your thinking? Izzy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:13 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
> Izzy:PS to my earlier response. Titles of  two books just brought in for
> sale: "Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation", "Bible Threatenings
Explained:
> Or Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown
> to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration"
>   Lance
> - Original Message -----
> From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: May 19, 2004 16:19
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
>
> >
> > Jonathan, Lance and John,  do any of you consider yourselves to be
> > Universalists? How do you identify and define your idealology?  Just
> > (really) wondering. Izzy
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
> how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
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http://www.InnGlory.org

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--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
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http://www.InnGlory.org

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http://www.InnGlory.org

If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-20 Thread Slade Henson

Is not a believer one who believe in the promises of God? I don't recall
anywhere where one must believe in the curses of God to be a member of the
Ekklesia.

-- slade

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily
Sent: Thursday, 20 May, 2004 14:23
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


I'm not sure anyone can be a "genuine" Believer (in God's definition) if
they don't believe in God's promises of eternal judgment for sinners who
reject the Savior.  I am assuming you do believe in this.  Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Izzy: Answered in the previous post. Do you understand that some, quite
genuine, believers actually do?
 Lance
- Original Message -
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 10:39
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> Lance, Have you read them? Do they represent your thinking? Izzy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:13 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
> Izzy:PS to my earlier response. Titles of  two books just brought in for
> sale: "Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation", "Bible Threatenings
Explained:
> Or Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown
> to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration"
>   Lance
> - Original Message -
> From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: May 19, 2004 16:19
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
>
> >
> > Jonathan, Lance and John,  do any of you consider yourselves to be
> > Universalists? How do you identify and define your idealology?  Just
> > (really) wondering. Izzy
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
> how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
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http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-20 Thread LaurHamm




In a message dated 5/20/2004 12:11:52 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The thing that a lot of Christians seem to miss is that both believersand unbelievers will be judged for their works.  I preach to Christiansall the time who retort that God will not judge them for their worksbecause of Jesus Christ.  They think they can get drunk on the weekendsand fornicate, and God accepts them just as they are because of thevicarious atonement provided by Jesus Christ.  My response to them isthat they are deceived.  All men will be resurrected and all men willcome before Jesus Christ and be judged for what they have done.  Theonly difference for the believer is if he has repented of his sins andhas been set free of his sins.  Such a believer will not have criminalcharges brought against him based upon his past sins.  Those have beenpardoned.  Nevertheless, the fruit of his works will be examined just asthey are for the sinner, but the reason is not to show his condemnationbecause the works of the believer are of Christ and therefore righteous.Why then examine them?  To see how they brought forth good fruit untothe kingdom of God.
This is so true.  I sometimes question their decision to follow Christ in the first place.  i think that while works do not save us they are "fruit" of our salvation. 
Evidence of their salvation would be keeping the commandments of JesusChrist.  Therefore, "Christians" who are homosexuals, thieves,murderers, extortioners, or covetous are not saved.
Agreed unless there is repentance and restoration.   Laura

RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

I'm not sure anyone can be a "genuine" Believer (in God's definition) if
they don't believe in God's promises of eternal judgment for sinners who
reject the Savior.  I am assuming you do believe in this.  Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Izzy: Answered in the previous post. Do you understand that some, quite
genuine, believers actually do?
 Lance
- Original Message - 
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 10:39
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> Lance, Have you read them? Do they represent your thinking? Izzy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:13 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
> Izzy:PS to my earlier response. Titles of  two books just brought in for
> sale: "Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation", "Bible Threatenings
Explained:
> Or Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown
> to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration"
>   Lance
> - Original Message ----- 
> From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: May 19, 2004 16:19
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
>
> >
> > Jonathan, Lance and John,  do any of you consider yourselves to be
> > Universalists? How do you identify and define your idealology?  Just
> > (really) wondering. Izzy
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
> how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
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how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Well, Lance, when we get old we start forgetting who said what after a
while. :-) I had no idea that there could be a Savior other than One who did
suffer as a substitute for others. Izzy

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 9:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Izzy:(adj)suffered or done by one person as a substitute for another;
"vicarious atonement". The vicarious life and death of the Mediator is a
teaching central to that which I believe. I've said so on numerous occasions
and you've 'Amened' it.
 No, I don't believe that everyone will go to heaven.
 Lance (I've also said that on numerous occasions)
- Original Message - 
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 10:39
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> Lance, What do you mean by "vicarious".  Do you mean that everyone goes to
> heaven? I don't understand your question. Izzy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
> Izzy:I do not consider myself a universalist.If, however, God considered
> Himself a universalist I wouldn't be angry.
>   I believe that Jesus' Humanity is vicarious. In the 'second Adam' all of
> humanity, from the first to the last, are included. Any exclusion is not
of
> God's doing.
>   Isn't it interesting how 'invested' we are in the particular way we come
> (through personal reading of Scripture, books, bible study groups, sermons
> etc.) to see & then to speak of God's Nature and Gospel.
>   I believe it to be the case that some from among all of these 'ways of
> seeing' (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant & Independent}will inhabit the
> kingdom to come. Perhaps some of the 'nuances' matter more to us than to
> God. Let me hasten to add, however, SOME DO NOT. May I then ask of you
(and
> anyone who chooses the join in) what falls into the latter category for
> yourself?
>  Lance
> - Original Message - 
> From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: May 19, 2004 16:19
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
>
> >
> > Jonathan, Lance and John,  do any of you consider yourselves to be
> > Universalists? How do you identify and define your idealology?  Just
> > (really) wondering. Izzy
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
> how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know
how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

David:Are you aware of: Govett, Whipple, GHLang? I believe they call it
kingdom theology? They teach just what you teach. I carry their books. Lance
- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 12:51
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> David Miller wrote:
> >> All men will be judged for their works, but those who
> >> are found in Christ have been pardoned for their past
> >> sins.  Therefore, the judgment of their works is to examine
> >> the fruit of their ministry and to give rewards and crowns
> >> for what they have done.
>
> DAVEH:
> > So.if I am understanding you correctly, there will
> > be a double standard.  You apparently believe those saved
> > will be judged differently than those not saved.correct?
>
> No, the judgment is the same, based upon works, but the past crimes of
> the believer is brought against him in regards to criminal charges.  The
> pardon of God in this case is no more a double standard than it would be
> a double standard in our own legal system to have a way of granting
> pardons.
>
> The thing that a lot of Christians seem to miss is that both believers
> and unbelievers will be judged for their works.  I preach to Christians
> all the time who retort that God will not judge them for their works
> because of Jesus Christ.  They think they can get drunk on the weekends
> and fornicate, and God accepts them just as they are because of the
> vicarious atonement provided by Jesus Christ.  My response to them is
> that they are deceived.  All men will be resurrected and all men will
> come before Jesus Christ and be judged for what they have done.  The
> only difference for the believer is if he has repented of his sins and
> has been set free of his sins.  Such a believer will not have criminal
> charges brought against him based upon his past sins.  Those have been
> pardoned.  Nevertheless, the fruit of his works will be examined just as
> they are for the sinner, but the reason is not to show his condemnation
> because the works of the believer are of Christ and therefore righteous.
> Why then examine them?  To see how they brought forth good fruit unto
> the kingdom of God.
>
> David Miller wrote:
> >> Nevertheless, any "Christian" found to be a fornicator,
> >> homosexual, thief, murderer, extortioner, or covetous,
> >> etc. will be judged as other sinners are judged.
>
> DAVEH:
> > ???  Even if they are saved they will suffer the wrath
> > of the Lord?
>
> No, these would be Christians who are damned to eternal damnation.
> These are the hypocrites, the religious "Pharisees and scribes" of our
> day who continue in sin while at the same time profess faith in Christ.
>
> DaveH wrote:
> > IF their sins are forgiven as evidenced by their
> > salvation, then why would they not be exempt?
>
> Evidence of their salvation would be keeping the commandments of Jesus
> Christ.  Therefore, "Christians" who are homosexuals, thieves,
> murderers, extortioners, or covetous are not saved.
>
> "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
> BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
> effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor
> covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit
> the kingdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV)
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>


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ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

David: What does that paragraph mean to you? Don't be embarrassed if you
can't figure it out. TFT certainly won't win any awards for his style. But,
if you'll read it as many times as one of my posts (10) I'm certain that
even you could make some sense of it. Go on David, give it a try.
  Lance
- Original Message - 
From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 12:39
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> Lance wrote:
> > Without once again engaging in what appears to be
> > your understanding of syntax vs syntactics, will
> > you interpret for me that additional paragraph
> > (by TFT).
>
> I don't know where you are quoting from or the context of what is being
> said.  Can you offer us some more information?  It seems to me that you
> should yourself just tell us how you interpret what he is saying.
> Aren't you the student of Torrance here?
>
> Lance wrote:
> > I'd suggest that your framework for both thinking and
> > interpreting is Greek (individualistic, pagan, non-trinitarian
> > & relational, and possessing a 'religious' spirit').
>
> On the contrary, my framework is reading the Scriptures and comparing
> spiritual things with spiritual.  I think you grossly misunderstand my
> framework of thinking.
>
> Furthermore, I am far from individualistic.  My theology is very
> community oriented.  I see the ekklesia as the community of believers in
> a locality, and see the ekklesia as the body of Christ.  Perhaps you
> confuse my reductionistic approach to problem solving with
> individualism.
>
> Lance wrote:
> > This is that upon which American society was founded.
>
> Sorry, Lance, but you would have a very hard time convincing me that
> American society was found upon paganism.  I wonder what Pagan Wolf
> thinks about that idea.  Go ahead and make your case if you think it is
> so obvious.
>
> Lance wrote:
> > There is indeed a 'spiritual warfare' going on here
> > (even in this discussion).
>
> I think we all agree with this.
>
> Lance wrote:
> > THE TRINITARIAN NATURE OF GOD is the center out of
> > which we ought to be doing all of our theologizing
>
> Why?
>
> Lance wrote:
> > One way of characterizing this is to contrast theological
> > anthropology and anthropological theology. You, I would
> > suggest are 'doing' the latter while Bill & Jonathan are
> > 'doing' the former.
>
> I strongly disagree.  It seems to me that this ad hominem perspective
> you take just makes you feel better about your arguments because you
> can't deal with the Scriptures that we bring up.  There has been a
> noticeable tendency that whenever we quote Bible, there is an inability
> to deal with it.  In fact, it appears like you think the Bible can be
> used to proof text just about anything, so rather than using the Bible
> to understand God, it seems to me that you just invent an idea of God
> that you like and then try to make all teachings conform to your own
> personal idea of God.  Isn't this why you say that the "Trinitarian
> nature of God is the center out of which we ought to be doing all of our
> theologizing"?
>
> We know that we are using the proper method of approaching Scripture
> because we are walking in the same tradition as Jesus and the apostles.
> They always peppered their discourse with references to Scripture that
> illustrated the concepts that they were sharing.  "It is written" or "as
> saith the prophet" or "have ye not read" are very common instructions in
> Scripture.  Of course, just referencing Scriptures does not in itself
> mean that they are being interpreted properly, but anyone who avoids the
> Scriptures in discussing theology is highly suspect of approaching
> theology from a man-centered perspective rather than a God-centered
> perspective.  We believe that God reveals himself through Scripture, and
> therefore we consider it seriously in all discussions about God.
>
> Peace be with you.
> David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
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>


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ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-20 Thread Terry Clifton





Lance Muir wrote:

  Terry: I don't sell the DaVinci Code. I do sell books that critique it. 

Sorry Lance.  I misunderstood one of your earlier posts


  These other two titles were written by a believing universalist. There are
many though I do not count myself among their number.
  I am pleased Terry, that it is God and not yourself who will be my judge.
  

Sorry if I hit a nerve Lance.  Do you often feel that you are being
judged when someone asks a question, or is this a particularly
sensitive area?

  There are occasions after reading what some of you write that I find myself
wondering if any of you ever get out of the house or, inhabit the same world
as I do. Do any of you shop at Christian stores?
  

Believe me.  We live in totally different worlds.  Both of us
probably give thanks for that.  I would not fit in yours, you could not
function in mine.

You do know, don't you, that many believers do not believe as you do?
  

 .I know that, but I pray for their enlightenment.

  These same people are capable of , in some cases, making quite a compelling
case (biblically) for the content of their faith.
  

I guess that opinion would depend on who you ask.  They seem kind of
silly to me.
Terry


   Lance

Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

2004-05-20 Thread Terry Clifton

Jonathan Hughes wrote:
Whoa, a bit of a misunderstanding here.  Lance does not sell the DaVinci
Code.  The book he referred to was a title that was writing against the
DaVinci code (in fact he has two books that speak against it - one entitled
if I remember correctly "Breaking the DaVinci Code").  I will let Lance
answer the question itself.
Jonathan
 

---
Thanks for the clarification.  Evidently I misunderstood one of his posts.
Terry

--
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to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org
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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Lance wrote:
> Any exclusion is not of God's doing.

This is the crux of our difference then.  Do Bill and Jonathan agree
with this?

It seems to me that you do not view Jesus Christ as the Judge.  I view
Jesus Christ as sending people to the lake of fire the same way that a
Judge in our modern court system orders a convict to prison.  Sure, it
was the action of the convict that caused the Judge to impose the
sentence upon him, but without the legal system and the Judge taking
action, that convict would not suffer any punishment.  Jesus Christ
inflicts punishment upon the evil doers.  I glorify God that He Judges
the wicked.  We who are in Christ and suffer persecution for the sake of
the gospel are to comfort each other with these words.

"And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be
revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking
vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our
Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction
from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he
shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them
that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that
day." (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Lance wrote:
> I am pleased Terry, that it is God and not yourself 
> who will be my judge.

I think you are going to be very disappointed on judgment day when you
find that God's attitude is very much like Terry's.

Lance wrote:
> There are occasions after reading what some of you 
> write that I find myself wondering if any of you ever 
> get out of the house or, inhabit the same world
> as I do. Do any of you shop at Christian stores?

There is a big apostasy in the churches, Lance.  No doubt about it.
About 85% of those in the United States profess to be Christians.  There
are very different views among them all.  The United States also differs
geographically.  If you get down south here in the Bible belt where guys
like me and Terry live, you will find a different perspective than those
up north who tend to be more secular.

Lance wrote:
> You do know, don't you, that many believers 
> do not believe as you do?

Many "Christians" do not believe, but most "believers" do.  When a
person believes in Jesus Christ, he is put into Christ.  He becomes one
with Christ and no longer lives as he once did.  He becomes a new
creature in Christ and no longer continues to sin.  Broad is the way
that leads to destruction, and many there be that go in thereat, but
strait is the gate and narrow the way that leads unto life, and few
there be that find it.  Follow the crowd in theology, and you will miss
it.  Follow Jesus Christ and live a holy life, pure and undefiled, and
then your theology will line up with the theology of Jesus Christ and
his apostles.

Lance wrote:
> These same people are capable of, in some cases, 
> making quite a compelling case (biblically) for the 
> content of their faith.

I've never seen that.  Maybe you can ask one to come on the list and
make his case.  :-)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

David Miller wrote:
>> All men will be judged for their works, but those who 
>> are found in Christ have been pardoned for their past 
>> sins.  Therefore, the judgment of their works is to examine 
>> the fruit of their ministry and to give rewards and crowns 
>> for what they have done.

DAVEH:  
> So.if I am understanding you correctly, there will 
> be a double standard.  You apparently believe those saved 
> will be judged differently than those not saved.correct?

No, the judgment is the same, based upon works, but the past crimes of
the believer is brought against him in regards to criminal charges.  The
pardon of God in this case is no more a double standard than it would be
a double standard in our own legal system to have a way of granting
pardons.  

The thing that a lot of Christians seem to miss is that both believers
and unbelievers will be judged for their works.  I preach to Christians
all the time who retort that God will not judge them for their works
because of Jesus Christ.  They think they can get drunk on the weekends
and fornicate, and God accepts them just as they are because of the
vicarious atonement provided by Jesus Christ.  My response to them is
that they are deceived.  All men will be resurrected and all men will
come before Jesus Christ and be judged for what they have done.  The
only difference for the believer is if he has repented of his sins and
has been set free of his sins.  Such a believer will not have criminal
charges brought against him based upon his past sins.  Those have been
pardoned.  Nevertheless, the fruit of his works will be examined just as
they are for the sinner, but the reason is not to show his condemnation
because the works of the believer are of Christ and therefore righteous.
Why then examine them?  To see how they brought forth good fruit unto
the kingdom of God.

David Miller wrote:
>> Nevertheless, any "Christian" found to be a fornicator, 
>> homosexual, thief, murderer, extortioner, or covetous, 
>> etc. will be judged as other sinners are judged.

DAVEH:  
> ???  Even if they are saved they will suffer the wrath 
> of the Lord?  

No, these would be Christians who are damned to eternal damnation.
These are the hypocrites, the religious "Pharisees and scribes" of our
day who continue in sin while at the same time profess faith in Christ.

DaveH wrote:
> IF their sins are forgiven as evidenced by their 
> salvation, then why would they not be exempt?  

Evidence of their salvation would be keeping the commandments of Jesus
Christ.  Therefore, "Christians" who are homosexuals, thieves,
murderers, extortioners, or covetous are not saved.

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor
covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit
the kingdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 KJV)

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Lance wrote:
> Without once again engaging in what appears to be 
> your understanding of syntax vs syntactics, will 
> you interpret for me that additional paragraph 
> (by TFT). 

I don't know where you are quoting from or the context of what is being
said.  Can you offer us some more information?  It seems to me that you
should yourself just tell us how you interpret what he is saying.
Aren't you the student of Torrance here?

Lance wrote:
> I'd suggest that your framework for both thinking and 
> interpreting is Greek (individualistic, pagan, non-trinitarian 
> & relational, and possessing a 'religious' spirit').

On the contrary, my framework is reading the Scriptures and comparing
spiritual things with spiritual.  I think you grossly misunderstand my
framework of thinking.

Furthermore, I am far from individualistic.  My theology is very
community oriented.  I see the ekklesia as the community of believers in
a locality, and see the ekklesia as the body of Christ.  Perhaps you
confuse my reductionistic approach to problem solving with
individualism. 

Lance wrote:
> This is that upon which American society was founded. 

Sorry, Lance, but you would have a very hard time convincing me that
American society was found upon paganism.  I wonder what Pagan Wolf
thinks about that idea.  Go ahead and make your case if you think it is
so obvious.

Lance wrote:
> There is indeed a 'spiritual warfare' going on here 
> (even in this discussion). 

I think we all agree with this.

Lance wrote:
> THE TRINITARIAN NATURE OF GOD is the center out of 
> which we ought to be doing all of our theologizing

Why?

Lance wrote:
> One way of characterizing this is to contrast theological 
> anthropology and anthropological theology. You, I would 
> suggest are 'doing' the latter while Bill & Jonathan are 
> 'doing' the former. 

I strongly disagree.  It seems to me that this ad hominem perspective
you take just makes you feel better about your arguments because you
can't deal with the Scriptures that we bring up.  There has been a
noticeable tendency that whenever we quote Bible, there is an inability
to deal with it.  In fact, it appears like you think the Bible can be
used to proof text just about anything, so rather than using the Bible
to understand God, it seems to me that you just invent an idea of God
that you like and then try to make all teachings conform to your own
personal idea of God.  Isn't this why you say that the "Trinitarian
nature of God is the center out of which we ought to be doing all of our
theologizing"?  

We know that we are using the proper method of approaching Scripture
because we are walking in the same tradition as Jesus and the apostles.
They always peppered their discourse with references to Scripture that
illustrated the concepts that they were sharing.  "It is written" or "as
saith the prophet" or "have ye not read" are very common instructions in
Scripture.  Of course, just referencing Scriptures does not in itself
mean that they are being interpreted properly, but anyone who avoids the
Scriptures in discussing theology is highly suspect of approaching
theology from a man-centered perspective rather than a God-centered
perspective.  We believe that God reveals himself through Scripture, and
therefore we consider it seriously in all discussions about God.

Peace be with you.
David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida.

--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Izzy: Answered in the previous post. Do you understand that some, quite
genuine, believers actually do?
 Lance
- Original Message - 
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 10:39
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> Lance, Have you read them? Do they represent your thinking? Izzy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 3:13 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
> Izzy:PS to my earlier response. Titles of  two books just brought in for
> sale: "Bible Proofs of Universal Salvation", "Bible Threatenings
Explained:
> Or Passages of Scripture Sometimes Quoted to Prove Endless Punishment
Shown
> to Teach Consequences of Limited Duration"
>   Lance
> - Original Message - 
> From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: May 19, 2004 16:19
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
>
> >
> > Jonathan, Lance and John,  do any of you consider yourselves to be
> > Universalists? How do you identify and define your idealology?  Just
> > (really) wondering. Izzy
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
> how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ

Izzy:(adj)suffered or done by one person as a substitute for another;
"vicarious atonement". The vicarious life and death of the Mediator is a
teaching central to that which I believe. I've said so on numerous occasions
and you've 'Amened' it.
 No, I don't believe that everyone will go to heaven.
 Lance (I've also said that on numerous occasions)
- Original Message - 
From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: May 20, 2004 10:39
Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ


> Lance, What do you mean by "vicarious".  Do you mean that everyone goes to
> heaven? I don't understand your question. Izzy
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir
> Sent: Thursday, May 20, 2004 2:39 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
> Izzy:I do not consider myself a universalist.If, however, God considered
> Himself a universalist I wouldn't be angry.
>   I believe that Jesus' Humanity is vicarious. In the 'second Adam' all of
> humanity, from the first to the last, are included. Any exclusion is not
of
> God's doing.
>   Isn't it interesting how 'invested' we are in the particular way we come
> (through personal reading of Scripture, books, bible study groups, sermons
> etc.) to see & then to speak of God's Nature and Gospel.
>   I believe it to be the case that some from among all of these 'ways of
> seeing' (Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant & Independent}will inhabit the
> kingdom to come. Perhaps some of the 'nuances' matter more to us than to
> God. Let me hasten to add, however, SOME DO NOT. May I then ask of you
(and
> anyone who chooses the join in) what falls into the latter category for
> yourself?
>  Lance
> - Original Message - 
> From: "ShieldsFamily" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: May 19, 2004 16:19
> Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ
>
>
> >
> > Jonathan, Lance and John,  do any of you consider yourselves to be
> > Universalists? How do you identify and define your idealology?  Just
> > (really) wondering. Izzy
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
> know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
> >
> > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know
> how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
> http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
> friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
>
>
>
> --
> "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may
know how you ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6)
http://www.InnGlory.org
>
> If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed.  If you have a
friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.


--
"Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you 
ought to answer every man."  (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org

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RE: [TruthTalk] The Mediation of Christ