[U2] AUTO: Jonathan D Smith is out of the office - But Don't Panic (returning 28/04/2009)
I am out of the office until 28/04/2009. I am visiting a Customer in Sweden. I have limited access to email and phone. For Support Matters Contact John Jenkins For PSO Matters Ailsa Mcaless Note: This is an automated response to your message U2 Users Digest V1 #2611 sent on 20/4/09 9:00:04. This is the only notification you will receive while this person is away. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Hear hear. And now that this Microsoft-centric mentality has spread to management, I am concerned that there will be serious consequences down the road. I just heard that the US power grid control systems have been hacked. Imagine if the US were invaded and the power grid was taken down at the same time. I am only guessing but the fact that the system was compromised makes me think two things. 1. It is physically contected to the Internet. (Bad idea #1). 2. It was Windows-based. (Bad idea #2) Can an easy to access system be secure? Isn't that an oxymoron? Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation JPB-U2UG jpb-u...@hotmail.com Sent by: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org 04/18/2009 05:53 PM Please respond to u2-users To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org cc: Subject:Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing about processing data, database structure, proper logic, or problem solving. They are not even being taught Unix anymore. I think the colleges are doing their students a disservice because most businesses are still running other platforms for their business logic and only have windows as the presentation layer. This causes a problem because when the business wants to hire someone they don't have anything except these 90 day wonders to choose from. The candidate has problems because they have never been taught how to use anything other than the windows tools. This isn't exclusive to U2, it's a problem with any of the proprietary operating systems/products and anything on Unix/Linux. This gives the PHB's the mistaken impression that anything not windows is obsolete and they should scrap what they have and go towards all MS or anything else that looks pretty. The new programmers are more than happy to get on board with the idea because most of them want to be working in what they are taught. They don't know what business logic is and they think it would be a walk in the park to switch. After all they were able to build that web page, right? They, of course, forget that the data had to be there before they could present it. The PHB's find that there is a bigger pool of willing low cost employees to choose from and force all of their people that actually know the business logic off the payroll. Then the nail is in the coffin. The new programmers all of a sudden discover that there is something happening in the background that they were not aware of, they try to reproduce it but nothing seems to work the same as it use to. Pride takes over and nobody wants to admit that they may have made a mistake. They don't notify the PHB's that there is a problem, they start panicking, they don't want to rehire the employees they got rid of, so they hire some consultants that don't know the business logic any more than the people that are there. It's not the consultants fault they were expecting that someone at the company knew something about how the company operates. By the time all of the problems come to light the company is on the brink of bankruptcy. Where does the blame go, the people that left were at fault for not giving the youngsters all of the information they needed. -- From: Rex Gozar rgo...@autopower.com Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need to migrate away from UV. * Was their IT staff unable to meet business requirements due to the limitations of UV? * Was their IT staff to blame, rather than the UV database environment? (i.e. understaffed, lack of skills, etc.) At any rate, it appears that either (or both) caused Shane Co. management to look for a different solution. Under the assumption if it ain't broke, don't fix it I would think that management thought something was broken, and they needed to spend money to fix it. Does anyone have any first-hand knowledge of the specifics? Anyone care to share their insights? rex John Hester wrote: There were a few posts back in January about Denver jewelry retailer Shane Co. and their disastrous migration from UV to SAP. Today they're starring in an eWeek slideshow about I.T. disasters: --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database. I don't buy it. Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive. In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars -- and no one bothered to do an ROI study? Or it was fabricated by a bunch of idiots without any concept of reality? At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good. They were expanding. It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store here in Orlando, FL. (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to generate revenue.) During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said we AREN'T getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions. Or maybe they said, we CAN'T get what we need. (The former speaking to an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do so.) And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV? If Universe is supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver? Why? It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as frivolous or political. But it's irresponsible to ignore the true business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat history's mistakes. rex JPB-U2UG wrote: I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing... --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
There can also be blame at the coalface as well - I know many pick guys who really are dinosaurs and who bury their head in the sand if xml, web services, web access etc are mentioned ... -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis Sent: 20 April 2009 14:48 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the technical realities and work involved in such a major change. I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed. There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-). Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last expensive disaster! Glenn Sallis Software Developer Flextronics Logistics B.V --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
For the past twenty years we have been trying to get the multivalue Vendors to advertise and market their products. They never have had the inclination to do that for a variety of reasons. Microsoft on the other hand has spent literally 100's of millions if not billions on advertising. They have beat it into everyone for the past 20 years. It is now a 'standard' to use Microsoft products in any RFP we see in our business. All the under 30's only know Microsoft (and a little Linux) so they don't want to support Unidata or Universe. (fear of the unknown). The biggest argument I have heard time and time again is that you need a programmer to get the data out of Unidata or Universe. Unfortunately in many cases the database design was not made for reporting, so extracting multivalue against multivalues is difficult and forget trying to use subvalues. So we as designers have done it to ourselves in many cases. We all know that our databases are fast, reliable, more efficient and more flexible than any other database. The other thing management says is that it is old. (flat databases are older but no one ever counters with that argument). The ROI is almost never done properly either. To add the staff necessary to support Oracle or SQL is never put as part of the cost as they already have people that are maintaining all their DNS and Exchange servers, so they say they can handle the new system and they rarely if ever are able to maintain it. The bottom line is that SQL has become the 'standard' through out almost every industry. It doesn't matter that you can loose an entire database and have to take days to rebuild it. It doesn't matter that it can and does get infected with viruses all the time. It doesn't matter that the cost of anti-virus software, firewalls, routers, encryption are all add-ons to SQL, because if 'management' believes that they NEED something new they will get it. I could go on and on. Nicholas M Gettino | Director of Support Professional Services | EnRoute Emergency Systems, an Infor company | office: 813-207-6998 | fax: 678-393-5389 nick.gett...@infor.com | www.enroute911.com -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Symeon Breen Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:25 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster There can also be blame at the coalface as well - I know many pick guys who really are dinosaurs and who bury their head in the sand if xml, web services, web access etc are mentioned ... -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis Sent: 20 April 2009 14:48 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the technical realities and work involved in such a major change. I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed. There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-). Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last expensive disaster! Glenn Sallis Software Developer Flextronics Logistics B.V --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
In Jerry's case, you have IT director that has spent 10-20 years in windows world, he doesn't like UniVerse and is not open to learning its capabilities and the good tools that are in the market for it. He went to a IBM conference once and that was before I joined the company over 7 years ago. Add a young 20-30 something network administrator that knows little about Unix/Linux and even less about UniVerse that is totally against anything not Windows and a 20 something Windows programmer who has said repeatedly that UniVerse is old technology and they bombard the owner of the company, well you get the picture. Add the fact that only the IT director has a clue as to the business logic and what he knows relates more to the product the company sells and supports which is window's based then the business logic the drives the internals of the business and the other 2 know very little. It is a train wreck waiting to happen and it did factor in on my decision to leave the company for greener pastures. Course better schools, warmer weather were the main attraction and after 6 months I can honestly say, new company is great to work for. Brenda L Price UniVerse Programmer Rapid Response Team Market America, Inc. Greensboro, NC -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2- us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:21 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database. I don't buy it. Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive. In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars -- and no one bothered to do an ROI study? Or it was fabricated by a bunch of idiots without any concept of reality? At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good. They were expanding. It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store here in Orlando, FL. (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to generate revenue.) During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said we AREN'T getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions. Or maybe they said, we CAN'T get what we need. (The former speaking to an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do so.) And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV? If Universe is supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver? Why? It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as frivolous or political. But it's irresponsible to ignore the true business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat history's mistakes. rex JPB-U2UG wrote: I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing... --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the technical realities and work involved in such a major change. I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed. There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-). Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last expensive disaster! Glenn Sallis Software Developer Flextronics Logistics B.V -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com Sent: Montag, 20. April 2009 14:44 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster Hear hear. And now that this Microsoft-centric mentality has spread to management, I am concerned that there will be serious consequences down the road. I just heard that the US power grid control systems have been hacked. Imagine if the US were invaded and the power grid was taken down at the same time. I am only guessing but the fact that the system was compromised makes me think two things. 1. It is physically contected to the Internet. (Bad idea #1). 2. It was Windows-based. (Bad idea #2) Can an easy to access system be secure? Isn't that an oxymoron? Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation JPB-U2UG jpb-u...@hotmail.com Sent by: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org 04/18/2009 05:53 PM Please respond to u2-users To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org cc: Subject:Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing about processing data, database structure, proper logic, or problem solving. They are not even being taught Unix anymore. I think the colleges are doing their students a disservice because most businesses are still running other platforms for their business logic and only have windows as the presentation layer. This causes a problem because when the business wants to hire someone they don't have anything except these 90 day wonders to choose from. The candidate has problems because they have never been taught how to use anything other than the windows tools. This isn't exclusive to U2, it's a problem with any of the proprietary operating systems/products and anything on Unix/Linux. This gives the PHB's the mistaken impression that anything not windows is obsolete and they should scrap what they have and go towards all MS or anything else that looks pretty. The new programmers are more than happy to get on board with the idea because most of them want to be working in what they are taught. They don't know what business logic is and they think it would be a walk in the park to switch. After all they were able to build that web page, right? They, of course, forget that the data had to be there before they could present it. The PHB's find that there is a bigger pool of willing low cost employees to choose from and force all of their people that actually know the business logic off the payroll. Then the nail is in the coffin. The new programmers all of a sudden discover that there is something happening in the background that they were not aware of, they try to reproduce it but nothing seems to work the same as it use to. Pride takes over and nobody wants to admit that they may have made a mistake. They don't notify the PHB's that there is a problem, they start panicking, they don't want to rehire the employees they got rid of, so they hire some consultants that don't know the business logic any more than the people that are there. It's not the consultants fault they were expecting that someone at the company knew something about how the company operates. By the time all of the problems come to light the company is on the brink of bankruptcy. Where does the blame go, the people that left were at fault for not giving the youngsters all of the information they needed. -- From: Rex Gozar rgo...@autopower.com Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need to migrate away from UV. * Was their IT staff
RE: [U2] 81003 uvrpc error
I'd start with the basics. First check for the process to be running
(ps -ef | grep unirpc) and then for it to be listening on the port
(netstat -an | grep 31438). I deal mainly with Solaris so the commands
may be slightly different for linux but should be close.
- Josh
-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of doug chanco
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:31 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: [U2] 81003 uvrpc error
I am getting the below error message and I'm wondering if it has to do
with the personal edition of universe?
81002 UVRPC_NO_CONNECTION Connection is down.
I think I have everything setup (this is running on a linux system) so I
have
/etc/services with
uvrpc 31438/tcp # uvNet rpc port
I have an entry in xinetd.d called uvrpc
service uvrpc
{
instances = 10
socket_type = stream
wait= no
user= root
server = /usr/ibm/unishared/unirpc
nice= 10
disable = no
}
yet when I try to connect I get the above error. Rex (the developer of
u2pipe) has been super helpful but I don't want to take advantage of his
kindness so I am sending this out to the list instead.
dougc
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RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
What does the acronym PHB stand for? --B --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Maybe a U2 from IBM logo on Tiger Woods' golf cap would be helpful. :-) Bill __ From: Glenn Sallis glenn.sal...@nl.flextronics.com Sent: 4/20/2009 6:47 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster It's yet another story ... I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed. There is ... Glenn Sallis Software Developer Flextronics Logistics B.V -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of charles_shaf...@ntn-bower.com Sent: Montag, 20. April 2009 14:44 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster Hear hear. And now that this Microsoft-centric mentality has spread to management, ... Can an easy to access system be secure? Isn't that an oxymoron? Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation JPB-U2UG jpb-u...@hotmail.com Sent by: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org 04/18/2009 05:53 PM Please respond to u2-users To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org cc: Subject:Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster ... We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. ... -- From: Rex Gozar rgo...@autopower.com Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 4:38 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I've been wondering why the Shane Co. felt the need ... --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
What does the acronym PHB stand for? Ask any Dilbert fan! PHB is pointy-haired boss. Norman Morgan nmor...@brake.com http://www.brake.com Lottery: a tax on people who are bad at math. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Pointy Haired Boss from Dilbert. - Original Message - From: Brutzman, Bill bi...@hkmetalcraft.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 12:04 PM Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster What does the acronym PHB stand for? --B --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature which had a name of PGP.sig] --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Dude, giyf. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointy-Haired_Boss /Scott Ballinger Pareto Corporation Edmonds WA USA 206 713 6006 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
In message 367f3b3911959c4da9991c00166f620c01b90...@euducex2.europe.ad.flextronics. com, Glenn Sallis glenn.sal...@nl.flextronics.com writes It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the technical realities and work involved in such a major change. Quite often because the existing system has been starved of resources... The in-house UV system I worked on a few years back wasn't upgraded because management wouldn't let us, then they decided to outsource building its replacement. We could easily have done what the contractors did, we just weren't allowed to try. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman pi...@thewolery.demon.co.uk 'Yings, yow graley yin! Suz ae rikt dheu,' said the blue man, taking the thimble. 'What *is* he?' said Magrat. 'They're gnomes,' said Nanny. The man lowered the thimble. 'Pictsies!' Carpe Jugulum, Terry Pratchett 1998 Visit the MaVerick web-site - http://www.maverick-dbms.org Open Source Pick --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Rex's point that PHB's would do an ROI first is absolutely the correct thing to do before jumping into a major conversion ... the fact is they don't always ... and it doesn't matter what platform. Keep in mind this was another large software/hardware migration ... just not Universe. A few years ago I worked as a senior programmer/analyst for a large manufacturing company where we needed to do a major upgrade OR migrate to something different. We did do a software search had 3 different vendors in the running, including just upgrading to a later version of the current vendor's product. The decision was made to migrate to another vendor ... almost solely based on the visual 'desktop/applicaton appearance' ... being a newer Windows gui type look. Those of us in IT tried to give them an ROI, but no one listened. Upgrading the current software with both green screen and gui applications that would have given them virtualy the same look Windows feel and would have cost $250k, and the conversion time would have been a couple months at the most. Instead they opted for a different product. The conversion took 9mos involving or whole IT staff, every other project put on hold, and vendor consultants working hand in hand with us ... a huge effort, but we made it work successfully. The bottom line was a price tag of 2.5mil, which prompted an independent outside audit of the project. The audit revealed that IT managers, programmers, consultants were viewed as doing exactly what we were supposed to we hit the deadline timeframe. The criticism from the audit pointed directly at the most top level management CEO, CFO, COO, making a bad decision by NOT listening to their IT people at all during the review and decision process ... and by the way, they still got their bonuses !! Bob Utech, Senior I.T. Coordinator Information Technology Department (218) 879-3321 ext. 2254 Visit RAM on the Web at www.rammutual.com This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify the system manager and delete this email from your system. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. Warning: Although the company has taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this email, the company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:21 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database. I don't buy it. Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive. In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars -- and no one bothered to do an ROI study? Or it was fabricated by a bunch of idiots without any concept of reality? At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good. They were expanding. It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store here in Orlando, FL. (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to generate revenue.) During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said we AREN'T getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions. Or maybe they said, we CAN'T get what we need. (The former speaking to an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do so.) And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV? If Universe is supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver? Why? It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as frivolous or political. But it's irresponsible to ignore the true business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat history's mistakes. rex JPB-U2UG wrote: I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people coming out of the
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive. Rex, Based on the results, I have to wonder if the PHB selected SAP before any kind of analysis was done and without the knowledge of how difficult implementations like this are, and in particular how demanding an SAP implementation is. Then the ROI was done to justify the selection. I've seen it before and based on the results, I have to wonder. Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
In our particular case the IS Manager, who was a Pick programmer retired. Jerry Banker -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:21 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database. I don't buy it. Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive. In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars -- and no one bothered to do an ROI study? Or it was fabricated by a bunch of idiots without any concept of reality? At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good. They were expanding. It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store here in Orlando, FL. (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to generate revenue.) During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said we AREN'T getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions. Or maybe they said, we CAN'T get what we need. (The former speaking to an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do so.) And this brings me back to my original question: what was Shane Co.'s REAL reason for deciding to migrate away from UV? If Universe is supposed to be a superior environment for building and deploying business solutions, why couldn't their existing IT staff deliver? Why? It's too easy to characterize management decisions like this as frivolous or political. But it's irresponsible to ignore the true business reasons behind these decisions, dooming ourselves to repeat history's mistakes. rex JPB-U2UG wrote: I can't speak for everyone but if it's anything like at our place, it's due to lack of education. UniVerse is contains all of our business logic and Microsoft is used for our presentation layer, desktop and web. We have 3 programmers working on UniVerse with an average age of 55. In our windows area we have 10 programmers with an average age of 25. Most of the people coming out of the colleges and universities only know one platform Microsoft. They are taught nothing... --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] 81003 uvrpc error
I know that on my system (Fedora) there's a uv.rc script in /etc/init.d
that takes care of starting all the daemons. Can't recall, now, but I
think I copied it from /usr/ibm/uv/sample.
Bob Little
UniVerse Developer
Market America
Greensboro, NC
336-478-1694
-Original Message-
From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org
[mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of doug chanco
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 11:31 AM
To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org
Subject: [U2] 81003 uvrpc error
I am getting the below error message and I'm wondering if it has to do
with the personal edition of universe?
81002 UVRPC_NO_CONNECTION Connection is down.
I think I have everything setup (this is running on a linux system) so I
have
/etc/services with
uvrpc 31438/tcp # uvNet rpc port
I have an entry in xinetd.d called uvrpc
service uvrpc
{
instances = 10
socket_type = stream
wait= no
user= root
server = /usr/ibm/unishared/unirpc
nice= 10
disable = no
}
yet when I try to connect I get the above error. Rex (the developer of
u2pipe) has been super helpful but I don't want to take advantage of his
kindness so I am sending this out to the list instead.
dougc
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Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
I second that. And don't forget those people who have been in the same company and the same office for over 20 years and still reminisce about the 'good old mainframe days'. The first thing a new guy hears is, 'We don't like change here!' Upgrading? Don't fix it if it ain't broke! If you get a request, tell the requester that this is very difficult to do and could have all sorts of implications for the rest of the system. Or even better, 'we can't make any changes because then we can't upgrade the software later, and therefore only the software vendor can make changes to the code.' And of course at #1000 a day for their consultants it better be important. If he or she still wants it, ignore it until they ask again. If they don't, it obviously wasn't important enough anyway. Users will find a way to solve their problems without IT, and in no time the whole business runs on spreadsheets because the stupid 'legacy' software is useless anyway. And who's fault is that? And then you get stupid software vendors who want to sell only their latest web-based, platform independent software product and tell management they will stop support for that old product soon and therefore they should rather not upgrade and buy their latest toy. Or of course the old IT-manager retires and they hire a follower of the Church of Codd as replacement. I've been around and seen it all. It isn't always a PHB. Symeon Breen wrote: There can also be blame at the coalface as well - I know many pick guys who really are dinosaurs and who bury their head in the sand if xml, web services, web access etc are mentioned ... -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Sallis Sent: 20 April 2009 14:48 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster It's yet another story that makes people who know and understand the multivalue database model cringe. Often one of the reasons for migrating seems to be due to decisions being made upstairs by people who have not bothered to consult the people with the knowledge to inform of the technical realities and work involved in such a major change. I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed. There is usually a reason for a product needing to be advertised ;-). Just because a product has massive marketing muscle behind it doesn't mean it's the bee's knees. I'm sure this story won't be the last expensive disaster! Glenn Sallis Software Developer Flextronics Logistics B.V --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
I worked for a company that bought another company to replace an existing product strictly because it has a pretty interface by management. The amazing thing was that they got several developers and support personall together to go over the system and see how it compares to ours (which was good) but that consisted of talking to the sales lmanager ady and hearing her tell us oh yes it does that ... amazingly we were not allocated time to actually see the system in action but rather to ask question if it could do x after purchasing the system, we had a meeting with the president of the company and I asked how come we did not just put a GUI on our current system and was told we know you'll can do it BUT we cannot wait the 2 years it will take to develop well we rolled out the system to our first customer and a week later they rolled back to the old system because while it had a pretty interface it lacked over 70% of the functionality that the old green screen system had and 3 years later when I left the company we were still fixing it to make it as functional as the old system it was replacing. The sales manager lady left a few months after we acquired the company laughing all the way to the bank I bet .. dougc --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
From: Charles_Shaffer Hear hear. And now that this Microsoft-centric mentality has spread to management, I am concerned that there will be serious consequences down the road. ... 2. It was Windows-based. (Bad idea #2)... Charles Shaffer Senior Analyst NTN-Bower Corporation I'm seeing these anti-Microsoft arguments and it seems to me some of you folks are missing the point. If someone migrates away from MV to SAP, it could be due to a lack of understanding of MV and perhaps a blind bias toward SAP. And that's a bad thing, right? The anti-Microsoft sentiment here shows a categorical bias, as though all things Microsoft are bad. Isn't that the same thing? Biggotry is wrong no matter what side of town you live on, no matter what church you go to, and no matter what technology you prefer. A Microsoft-centric metality is no better or worse than a Linux-only or Mac-only or even MV-only mentality. Anyone who categorically closes their mind to all solutions based on the source is killing the messenger and not listening to the messages, whether they're good or bad. Anyone who insists on doing everything with Microsoft tools is just as bad as someone who continually insists on getting their MV DBMS to do things that a DBMS was never meant to do (like building in an FTP server, HTTP client, or SOAP parser...). If you want people to keep listening to you when you utter the word Pick in a sales presentation (or to your own Management) then perhaps you should reconsider your own bias when you hear the word Microsoft or any other word at which you scoff without further consideration. And before people go and say there goes that Microsoft weenie again..., listen to the message here, don't categorically dismiss the source - or once again you'll be completely missing the point. I use and sell Microsoft tools where they seem to fit. I've been through all of the others too and still use other tools occasionally including Java and PHP. Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] Authorizing UniData
If you bought UniData from an OEM/VAD as part of an embedded application solution you need to speak to them - you bought a solution, not the database. Otherwise if you email u...@us.ibm.com with your reasons for requiring a re-authorisation then as long as your current version of UniData is certified for your current O/S version they can advise. If you don't have a current maintenance agreement and need an upgrade then you will need to discuss reinstatement of maintenance or re-purchase. Again: u...@us.ibm.com if you bought directly - if you bought a solution you need to speak to your solution supplier. Regards JayJay -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of 20100 Sent: 19 April 2009 23:06 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: [U2] Authorizing Unidata Hi When the hardware CPU is replaced or if we re-install on a new platform, Unidata needs to be re-authorized. When one purchased Unidata, can it be re-authorised at any time, or do you need to have it covered by a support agreement to do so? We just want to replace the hardware, keep the same version of Unidata, etc, but have stopped paying support a few years ago. Before we do so, we want to make sure we can still re-authorized it on the IBM web site. Thanks for your input -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Authorizing-Unidata-tp23030312p23030312.html Sent from the U2 - Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
A common disconnect is to think of UniData and UniVerse as databases - they are not. MV databases are Application Servers with an integrated database. At least ONE major U2 consumer was headed off this route when they found out a migration would have left them with a database - but no application. Someone had (sort of) assumed that the application was separate from the database. I am sure others have headed down this route and carried forward as to admit a misconception after committing . spending $100's would have been too embarrassing - in both corporate and personal terms. Post 'em - we love 'em. Regards JayJay -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Bob Utech Sent: 20 April 2009 18:12 To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster Rex's point that PHB's would do an ROI first is absolutely the correct thing to do before jumping into a major conversion ... the fact is they don't always ... and it doesn't matter what platform. Keep in mind this was another large software/hardware migration ... just not Universe. A few years ago I worked as a senior programmer/analyst for a large manufacturing company where we needed to do a major upgrade OR migrate to something different. We did do a software search had 3 different vendors in the running, including just upgrading to a later version of the current vendor's product. The decision was made to migrate to another vendor ... almost solely based on the visual 'desktop/applicaton appearance' ... being a newer Windows gui type look. Those of us in IT tried to give them an ROI, but no one listened. Upgrading the current software with both green screen and gui applications that would have given them virtualy the same look Windows feel and would have cost $250k, and the conversion time would have been a couple months at the most. Instead they opted for a different product. The conversion took 9mos involving or whole IT staff, every other project put on hold, and vendor consultants working hand in hand with us ... a huge effort, but we made it work successfully. The bottom line was a price tag of 2.5mil, which prompted an independent outside audit of the project. The audit revealed that IT managers, programmers, consultants were viewed as doing exactly what we were supposed to we hit the deadline timeframe. The criticism from the audit pointed directly at the most top level management CEO, CFO, COO, making a bad decision by NOT listening to their IT people at all during the review and decision process ... and by the way, they still got their bonuses !! Bob Utech, Senior I.T. Coordinator Information Technology Department (218) 879-3321 ext. 2254 Visit RAM on the Web at www.rammutual.com This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, please notify the system manager and delete this email from your system. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this email. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited. Warning: Although the company has taken reasonable precautions to ensure no viruses are present in this email, the company cannot accept responsibility for any loss or damage arising from the use of this email or attachments -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Rex Gozar Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:21 AM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I guess the basic premise of your argument is that the PHB's are listening to 90-day-wonder windows programmers, and they encouraged said PHB's that they needed to replace the UV database. I don't buy it. Even PHB's don't go spending millions of dollars on SAP just because their 25 year old windows programmers don't think UV is productive. In the case of Shane Co. the PHB's decided to spend millions of dollars -- and no one bothered to do an ROI study? Or it was fabricated by a bunch of idiots without any concept of reality? At some point, Shane Co. must have been doing good. They were expanding. It seems a short time ago I heard they opened a new store here in Orlando, FL. (Or maybe they weren't doing that good after all and the expansion was a feeble attempt at opening new markets to generate revenue.) During this expansion, one of the PHB's must have said we AREN'T getting what we need from IT; let's look into other solutions. Or maybe they said, we CAN'T get what we need. (The former speaking to an unwillingness to address needs; the latter, lacking capability to do so.) And this brings me back to my original
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
-Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2- us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Tony G Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 4:14 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster [chop] A Microsoft-centric metality is no better or worse than a Linux-only or Mac-only or even MV-only mentality. Anyone who categorically closes their mind to all solutions based on the source is killing the messenger and not listening to the messages, whether they're good or bad. Anyone who insists on doing everything with Microsoft tools is just as bad as someone who continually insists on getting their MV DBMS to do things that a DBMS was never meant to do (like building in an FTP server, HTTP client, or SOAP parser...). Whoah there.. Aren't you mixing up the fruit basket a bit? MV is not just a data store (like MySQL) and it makes sense in a lot of cases to integrate external technology directly into MV. I guess it's pointless, in the sense of your statement, to even consider generating HTML from MV since it's not a web scripting language? Heck, for that matter, what's the point of MV.NET then? Why shouldn't we all just dump our data into flat files and use standard tools with it? [chop] Tony Gravagno Nebula Research and Development TG@ remove.pleaseNebula-RnD.com Visit PickWiki.com! Contribute! --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ Glen Batchelor IT Director All-Spec Industries phone: (910) 332-0424 fax: (910) 763-5664 E-mail: webmas...@all-spec.com Web: http://www.all-spec.com Blog: http://blog.all-spec.com --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
An IBM vendor went to a company I used to work for to try to get them to dump their current Unidata database and switch to DB2, how much new and better it was. One of the advantages he listed was IBM support. So one guy in our IT department told him: You really don't know anything about Unidata do you ? So the vendor asked him what he meant by that. So he told him: Unidata's an IBM product currently supported by IBM. You didn't even know that. What kind of credibility can you expect to have in listing DB2's advantages Unidata if you didn't even know that ? It's not a good thing when a guy in a company bashes his own company's product. At least the guy had the sense to look embarassed. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
OMG. That is hilarious. Thanks for sharing. -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Jacques G. Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:24 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: Re: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster An IBM vendor went to a company I used to work for to try to get them to dump their current Unidata database and switch to DB2, how much new and better it was. One of the advantages he listed was IBM support. So one guy in our IT department told him: You really don't know anything about Unidata do you ? So the vendor asked him what he meant by that. So he told him: Unidata's an IBM product currently supported by IBM. You didn't even know that. What kind of credibility can you expect to have in listing DB2's advantages Unidata if you didn't even know that ? It's not a good thing when a guy in a company bashes his own company's product. At least the guy had the sense to look embarassed. --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
We have a Thomson Reuters logo on Mike Weir's cap - does that count?? Of course, I remember a story my old boss told me about a CEO he met at a golf tournament. Apparently he was crowing about the new $25 million SAP system he had just purchased. He had no idea what it would do for them, but it could do lots of cool things (of which he understood none). Colin From: wphaskett Maybe a U2 from IBM logo on Tiger Woods' golf cap would be helpful. :-) Bill __ From: Glenn Sallis It's yet another story ... I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed. There is ... Glenn Sallis _ Experience all of the new features, and Reconnect with your life. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650730 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
[U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Hello all, This is an interesting subject. I remember reading several years ago that TI (Texas Instruments) spent $50 million on SAP and gave up. SAP must be a bear to implement but TI should have known better. I have personal knowledge of several migrations/conversions that didn't go so well. All of them suffered due to under estimating the amount of work involved. Of course, a lot of the work was due to the sloppiness of the old code, multiple and obsolete programs, program bugs, etc. But the primary cause of the under estimate was the eagerness of the sales person(s) to get the deal and not listen to the programmers. An Universe to jBASE migration project was abandoned after many months for several reasons. An Ultimate to Universe migration is alive and running but took several times as long as estimated. A GUI frontend addition to a UV system took a lot longer than the customer thought it should due to scope creep and a lack of planning and control. An Unidate to SQL migration is in production but still doesn't do all the things the Unidata system did. A Reality to Oracle migration dragged on for 5 years and then the company was bought out by a company using SAP so they switched to SAP. They are still in business so I guess that it's working for them. In another case, the programmer has built a very well organized and functional system but the PHB's are switching to something else. I don't know why but I bet it's not due to a favorable ROI. Why does MV lose out to the SAP's of the world? Marketing! Even IBM does a poor job of promoting U2 and they have the money to do so. The others in general have very little marketing money compared to Oracle and Microsoft. Other factors include too many vendors, each with a share of a rather small pie. Even when systems are brought together like Unidata and Universe or Mvbase and D3, the vendors choose to maintain separate versions. As long as there are so many versions, one of them will never have the resources to have effective marketing. Of course, there are a lot of other factors. Perhaps a bigger push into the open source space would help. I recently read that MySQL has a long history of bugs, like losing all your data, and some of them will not be fixed. Yet it remains the most popular free database. We have a better mouse trap, why doesn't the world know it? Just, my 2 cents worth. BTW, I'm looking for programming work! Universe, Unidata, jBASE, etc. Linux, Aix, Windows, Mac. Don Robinson donr_w...@yahoo.com From: John Hester jhes...@momtex.com To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 3:18:28 PM Subject: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster There were a few posts back in January about Denver jewelry retailer Shane Co. and their disastrous migration from UV to SAP. Today they're starring in an eWeek slideshow about I.T. disasters: http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/IT-Management/Dirty-Dozen-Inside-12-IT-Di sasters-874085/?kc=EWKNLEDP04172009A They're in slides 7 and 8. The slideshow itself isn't good for much more than a little gee, I'm sure glad that didn't happen to me shadenfreude, but I thought it was interesting that a failed migration away from UV caught the attention of the mainstream I.T. press. -John --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off. To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die. Laurie --- On Mon, 4/20/09, Colin Alfke alfke...@hotmail.com wrote: From: Colin Alfke alfke...@hotmail.com Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Date: Monday, April 20, 2009, 7:35 PM We have a Thomson Reuters logo on Mike Weir's cap - does that count?? Of course, I remember a story my old boss told me about a CEO he met at a golf tournament. Apparently he was crowing about the new $25 million SAP system he had just purchased. He had no idea what it would do for them, but it could do lots of cool things (of which he understood none). Colin From: wphaskett Maybe a U2 from IBM logo on Tiger Woods' golf cap would be helpful. :-) Bill __ From: Glenn Sallis It's yet another story ... I have noticed over the years that SAP has been very heavily marketed. There is ... Glenn Sallis _ Experience all of the new features, and Reconnect with your life. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9650730 --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/ --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster
Really. From whom did you hear that? Henry Henry P. Unger Hitech Systems, Inc. http://www.hitech.com -Original Message- From: owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org [mailto:owner-u2-us...@listserver.u2ug.org] On Behalf Of Laurie Blain Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 9:29 PM To: u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org Subject: RE: [U2] UV to SAP migration disaster I heard that IBM bought Unidata and Universe to kill them off. To their surprise many of us are refusing to let the U2 die. Laurie --- u2-users mailing list u2-users@listserver.u2ug.org To unsubscribe please visit http://listserver.u2ug.org/
