Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on?Qt/KDE?apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 2010-06-18 13:00:17 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > Kubuntu-dev only covers main. That explains my mistake. So the kubuntu package set only covers the KDE subset from main and allows Kubuntu developers to upload those without being a core-dev. Any KDE packages that are in universe aren't part of this package set. (The same applies for Gnome packages in main and ubuntu-desktop.) I assumed that the kubuntu package set has a broader scope and covered all packages that are primarily used on KDE desktops. Are there any plans/ideas to expand the scope of the kubuntu package set or will it stay like that forever? > Are GTK/Gnome packages better suited to MOTU or ubuntu-desktop? Where > would you draw the line? To be honest, I don't know as I seem to not fully understand how we use package sets currently. > Qt/KDE packages are not very different than most other packages in > Universe. There is, for example, far less domain specific knowledge > required for them than for Python packages. > > So I wouldn't treat experience with Qt/KDE packages in Universe any > differently than I would any other package. I'd be a lot more > concerned with the fact that most of them use CDBS, so it's quite easy > to not have any real experience with Debhelper based packages. With this new knowledge, I agree with you that someone who works on KDE/Qt packages in universe should go for MOTU and not be redirected to kubuntu-dev. Michael -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Friday, June 18, 2010 09:28:31 am Daniel Holbach wrote: > I have worked with Fabrice before and I'm sorry for him to be center of > the discussion right now, I'm convinced he didn't want to push somebody > away. Whatever else I think about this issue, I definitely agree with this. I meant the to be exemplary of what I see as a more general problem and not specifically aimed just at him. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE?apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 06/18/2010 09:46 AM, Michael Bienia wrote: > On 2010-06-18 09:07:36 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > >> I looked it up and it was >> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristianMangold/MOTUDeveloperApplication >> >> http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/04/27/%23ubuntu-meeting.html >> >> Specifically, he was told by a DMB member that MOTU is for generalists and he >> should apply to kubuntu-dev instead. This is exactly what lead to the move >> to >> create a separate package set for Qt/KDE Universe packages. Since it >> appeared >> at the time that working on those packages was not considered appropriate >> experience for MOTU, the only way to gain upload rights (short of >> kubuntu-dev, >> which being at the core of a distro has more requirements than MOTU) for >> those >> packages would be to split them out. >> >> I was against it at the time, but now I'm not so sure. There are multiple >> people who work on Qt/KDE stuff who see a problem, but no one else does. It >> may be that the only solution is to just split them out. >> > Re-reading this again, I seem to have an misunderstanding what the kubuntu > package set really is and where its "limits" are (is there some verbal > description of it (and the other package sets too)?). From a look at the > related packages on Christian's LP page I assumed that most of them > belong to the kubuntu package set. Isn't this the case? Given that we > all are pretty new to delegated teams, I see it appropiate to ask if an > other delegated team suites one owns interests better. Provided that the > understanding of the purpose of a package set and the packages the > applicant prefers to work on matches. > > To get to a better common understanding: is someone working mostly on > KDE packages better suited for MOTU or kubuntu-dev? And where would you > draw the line? > > Michael > > As far as I understand, kubuntu-dev only gives access to Kubuntu packages in main, there is no separate package set for Kubuntu packages in universe, nor would a kubuntu-dev have access to these packages in universe without being MOTU. Ralph -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE?apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 2010-06-18 09:07:36 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > I looked it up and it was > https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristianMangold/MOTUDeveloperApplication > > http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/04/27/%23ubuntu-meeting.html > > Specifically, he was told by a DMB member that MOTU is for generalists and he > should apply to kubuntu-dev instead. This is exactly what lead to the move > to > create a separate package set for Qt/KDE Universe packages. Since it > appeared > at the time that working on those packages was not considered appropriate > experience for MOTU, the only way to gain upload rights (short of > kubuntu-dev, > which being at the core of a distro has more requirements than MOTU) for > those > packages would be to split them out. > > I was against it at the time, but now I'm not so sure. There are multiple > people who work on Qt/KDE stuff who see a problem, but no one else does. It > may be that the only solution is to just split them out. Re-reading this again, I seem to have an misunderstanding what the kubuntu package set really is and where its "limits" are (is there some verbal description of it (and the other package sets too)?). From a look at the related packages on Christian's LP page I assumed that most of them belong to the kubuntu package set. Isn't this the case? Given that we all are pretty new to delegated teams, I see it appropiate to ask if an other delegated team suites one owns interests better. Provided that the understanding of the purpose of a package set and the packages the applicant prefers to work on matches. To get to a better common understanding: is someone working mostly on KDE packages better suited for MOTU or kubuntu-dev? And where would you draw the line? Michael -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 17.06.2010 21:28, Scott Kitterman wrote: > Several people, myself included, argued against this since if we fragment > Universe too much, the potential set of MOTU recruits will narrow > significantly. We decided that it was perfectly OK for potential MOTU to be > somewhat focused as long as they were well integrated with the MOTU > community. Was this a problem recently? If so, we're discussing it on the wrong mailing list. The TB and DMB should be involved and try to modify their best-practices in that regard to make it easier for people to join in in their preferred field. This is a problem that will exist for Kubuntu, Desktop, Server and other people and will surely occur again. Packagesets are still quite new and we're learning how to use them. While this maybe a setback for some for a certain while, we can fix these problems, we just need to bring it up with the DMB/TB. Have a great day, Daniel -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 17.06.2010 23:11, Soren Hansen wrote: > On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 03:28:26PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: >> This is pretty close to the UDS discussion. A number of Kubuntu people >> wanted a separate package set because, specifically, of people who >> focused on these packages getting deferred from MOTU because the had >> worked too much on KDE stuff. > > Like Michael, I'd like to hear more about this. I don't recall anything > like this. Same here. A possible problem that might arise in terms of upload rights is that a certain kde package is not in the kubuntu packageset, but that a person interested in kde/qt does not have a broad enough interest in everything else that MOTU is appropriate for them. This might also be true for server of gnome desktop people. Maybe this should be brought up with the TB or DMB? > Let me just for the record say that I maintain that what Fabrice did and > said was a friendly and helpful piece of advice. shadeslayer asked about > a mentor for his path towards MOTU. Shortly thereafter, he mentions that > he's been working on a qt package at which point Fabrice lets him know > there are other fora available for people focused on those things. > Seeing as he's looking for a mentor and apparantly has an interest in > qt/kde stuff, it seems helpful to me to tell him that the folks who > focus on that hang out elsewhere. I have worked with Fabrice before and I'm sorry for him to be center of the discussion right now, I'm convinced he didn't want to push somebody away. It seems like there's more general things that should be discussed and maybe fixed, but that's not what happens in the thread. Can we please discuss more general problems and try to fix them please? Do we think it's unclear which discussion should/could happen in #ubuntu-motu vs #kubuntu-devel, #ubuntu-server, #ubuntu-desktop, etc.? Should we try to harmonise various initiatives that are happening in parallel? How can we bridge this perceived gap somehow? Have a great day, Daniel -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE?apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Thursday, June 17, 2010 05:24:08 pm Michael Bienia wrote: > On 2010-06-17 16:58:12 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > "Michael Bienia" wrote: > > >On 2010-06-17 15:28:26 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > >> This is pretty close to the UDS discussion. A number of Kubuntu people > > >> wanted a separate package set because, specifically, of people who > > >> focused on these packages getting deferred from MOTU because the had > > >> worked too much on KDE stuff. > > > > > >Do you have some examples of such deferrals? I've checked my DMB mailbox > > >with the applications mails and didn't see a MOTU application where I > > >remember deferring it because of too much KDE stuff. > > > > I don't recall who it was, but just before the most recent UDS someone > > got deferred and one of the DMB members sited too much KDE on IRC in > > their rationale. The person in question later got MOTU, so the impact > > was only temporary. > > I only remember a core-dev application in the very recent past from a > kubuntu-dev member where the voting was pretty tight (and got deferred > until the absent DMB member voted per mail). It was hard for me to > decide how I vote on this. It wasn't about the skills nor that the > person worked mostly on KDE packages but the rationale for the core-dev > application which was in my opinion for the wrong reasons. He applied > for core-dev to get upload permissions for some "core" KDE packages > which weren't part of the kubuntu package set at that time. And I > preferred to fix this short-comings instead of working around it. With > a different (better) rationale for the core-dev application, I'd have > vote +1 but with this rationale I only vote +0. Some other DMB members > also preferred to fix it instead of working around the problem. That wasn't the case. I looked it up and it was https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ChristianMangold/MOTUDeveloperApplication http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2010/04/27/%23ubuntu-meeting.html Specifically, he was told by a DMB member that MOTU is for generalists and he should apply to kubuntu-dev instead. This is exactly what lead to the move to create a separate package set for Qt/KDE Universe packages. Since it appeared at the time that working on those packages was not considered appropriate experience for MOTU, the only way to gain upload rights (short of kubuntu-dev, which being at the core of a distro has more requirements than MOTU) for those packages would be to split them out. I was against it at the time, but now I'm not so sure. There are multiple people who work on Qt/KDE stuff who see a problem, but no one else does. It may be that the only solution is to just split them out. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE?apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 2010-06-17 16:58:12 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > "Michael Bienia" wrote: > > >On 2010-06-17 15:28:26 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > >> This is pretty close to the UDS discussion. A number of Kubuntu people > >> wanted a separate package set because, specifically, of people who > >> focused on these packages getting deferred from MOTU because the had > >> worked too much on KDE stuff. > > > >Do you have some examples of such deferrals? I've checked my DMB mailbox > >with the applications mails and didn't see a MOTU application where I > >remember deferring it because of too much KDE stuff. > > > > I don't recall who it was, but just before the most recent UDS someone > got deferred and one of the DMB members sited too much KDE on IRC in > their rationale. The person in question later got MOTU, so the impact > was only temporary. I only remember a core-dev application in the very recent past from a kubuntu-dev member where the voting was pretty tight (and got deferred until the absent DMB member voted per mail). It was hard for me to decide how I vote on this. It wasn't about the skills nor that the person worked mostly on KDE packages but the rationale for the core-dev application which was in my opinion for the wrong reasons. He applied for core-dev to get upload permissions for some "core" KDE packages which weren't part of the kubuntu package set at that time. And I preferred to fix this short-comings instead of working around it. With a different (better) rationale for the core-dev application, I'd have vote +1 but with this rationale I only vote +0. Some other DMB members also preferred to fix it instead of working around the problem. Michael -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 03:28:26PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > This is pretty close to the UDS discussion. A number of Kubuntu people > wanted a separate package set because, specifically, of people who > focused on these packages getting deferred from MOTU because the had > worked too much on KDE stuff. Like Michael, I'd like to hear more about this. I don't recall anything like this. > Several people, myself included, argued against this since if we > fragment Universe too much, the potential set of MOTU recruits will > narrow significantly. We decided that it was perfectly OK for > potential MOTU to be somewhat focused as long as they were well > integrated with the MOTU community. Let me just for the record say that I maintain that what Fabrice did and said was a friendly and helpful piece of advice. shadeslayer asked about a mentor for his path towards MOTU. Shortly thereafter, he mentions that he's been working on a qt package at which point Fabrice lets him know there are other fora available for people focused on those things. Seeing as he's looking for a mentor and apparantly has an interest in qt/kde stuff, it seems helpful to me to tell him that the folks who focus on that hang out elsewhere. With that out of the way, let's focus on what I think is key here. I hardly think Fabrice meant to (nor actually did, but I acknowledge that this is disputed) brush off shadeslayer. He suggested that he could connect to the kubuntu channels, thereby implying that he believes there's more qualified help and/or mentoring to be found there for the stuff that he seems interested in. Why would he do that? I'm going to take a wild guess and say: Because it's true. Kubuntu folks hang out in Kubuntu channels. Server people hang out in server channels. This is normal. What sort of mean person would /not/ tell a prospective Kubuntu developer to strike up a conversation with likeminded developers? Seriously, if I came into #ubuntu-motu and desperately wanted to work on server or virtualisation stuff, I'd be pretty pissed if weeks went by before anyone told me that there were IRC channels /dedicated to the exact stuff that I'm interested in/. You can bet your shoes that I'll keep referring people to other channels if I think they'll get better help there for exactly as long as I believe this is still true. If you want me to stop doing so, you need to make it not be true anymore. Simple as that. If something changes so that I think it's likely that people will get just as qualified guidance for Kubuntu stuff in #ubuntu-motu as in #kubuntu-devel (I don't even know how that will make sense, but let's just pretend that it does), sure, I /might/ consider refraining from mentioning the existence of #kubuntu-devel to them, but until then I think it's pretty effing rude not to let them know that these other fora exist. -- Soren Hansen Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps?in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 2010-06-17 15:28:26 -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > This is pretty close to the UDS discussion. A number of Kubuntu people > wanted a separate package set because, specifically, of people who > focused on these packages getting deferred from MOTU because the had > worked too much on KDE stuff. Do you have some examples of such deferrals? I've checked my DMB mailbox with the applications mails and didn't see a MOTU application where I remember deferring it because of too much KDE stuff. > Several people, myself included, argued against this since if we > fragment Universe too much, the potential set of MOTU recruits will > narrow significantly. We decided that it was perfectly OK for > potential MOTU to be somewhat focused as long as they were well > integrated with the MOTU community. I wouldn't defer such applications for MOTU right now as there is no "better" place for them. And I currently don't see strong reasons to create such a package set (and the team for it) either. Michael -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 17.06.2010 14:17, Ralph Janke wrote: > Furthermore, does that also mean that people that work primarily > on Gnome packages will have the same of similar restrictions? There are no restrictions. I never used Qt/KDE apps myself much, but I talked to a number of Qt/KDE people and sponsored quite a number of uploads in the last 5.5 years. It never mattered much to me, which part of somebody of Ubuntu somebody they worked in as long as they wanted to improve Ubuntu and did a good job. That I might know a bit more about some part of Ubuntu than another didn't stop me from doing that. > This discussion shows exactly why people are turned off. It is not > about enhancing the abilities of talents in conjunction with optimizing > QA, it sound rather like privilege, exclusivity and control. I don't think that general statements like that are helpful when trying to improve the situation, nor do I personally think that it reflects what's happening. While each perception forms a bit of reality, I feel it's more important to start having a conversation about what we can actually directly improve. We're a bunch of very clever and creative people, so I'm quite certain we can come up with something. I think it's helpful to distinguish between the following different cases: - a process that could be improved to be more inviting or straight-forward to people from various groups - best-practices that are modified to accommodate certain cases better - help facilitate a discussion between two guys who might have misunderstood each other and who want to straighten things out - In any case it's helpful to always stay specific. Big and broad rhetoric immediately takes away all opportunities to take something specific and make it better. Have a great day, Daniel -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 2010-06-17 08:17:04 -0400, Ralph Janke wrote: > On 06/16/2010 02:52 PM, Soren Hansen wrote: > > > > This is not isolated to people working on KDE stuff. With the advent of > > more and more package sets, people are more likely to get granted upload > > privs to those rather than getting full MOTU or core-dev, since (at > > least I'm reasonably sure this is the case) being interested in working > > on a limited set of more or less related packages is more common than > > being interested in working on all sorts of completely random stuff. > > > > > This is exactly what the discussion at UDS tried to avoid. > > Furthermore, does that also mean that people that work primarily > on Gnome packages will have the same of similar restrictions? > > This discussion shows exactly why people are turned off. It is not > about enhancing the abilities of talents in conjunction with optimizing > QA, it sound rather like privilege, exclusivity and control. Before archive reorganisation the world was easy: - you work on all kind of packages in universe => MOTU - you work on all kind of packages in main => core-dev - you work on KDE packages in universe => MOTU - you work on KDE packages in main => core-dev and similar for Gnome. With archive reorganisation and the coming of packages sets it has changed. I know we aren't yet at the point archive reorganisation has imagined and that what's makes the situation more difficult now: - you work on all kind of packages in universe => MOTU - you work on all kind of packages in main => core-dev - you work on KDE packages in main => kubuntu-dev - you work on Gnome packages in main => ubuntu-desktop - you work on KDE packages in universe => ??? Should it be MOTU or a seperate package set (I don't know what exactly was discussed at UDS about it). Isn't it one of the basic ideas of archive reorganisation to have more such package sets and have more finer control on what kind of packages someone can upload (based on their expierence)? And how will this result in the expected experience to join those teams? I know if was discussed at UDS Lucid what task MOTU have and should continue to have but IIRC not where MOTU sorts itself in the light of more packages sets coming. And until it's all sorted out, different people have different opinions on it which will lead to some fraction. Michael -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 06/16/2010 02:52 PM, Soren Hansen wrote: > > This is not isolated to people working on KDE stuff. With the advent of > more and more package sets, people are more likely to get granted upload > privs to those rather than getting full MOTU or core-dev, since (at > least I'm reasonably sure this is the case) being interested in working > on a limited set of more or less related packages is more common than > being interested in working on all sorts of completely random stuff. > > This is exactly what the discussion at UDS tried to avoid. Furthermore, does that also mean that people that work primarily on Gnome packages will have the same of similar restrictions? This discussion shows exactly why people are turned off. It is not about enhancing the abilities of talents in conjunction with optimizing QA, it sound rather like privilege, exclusivity and control. Ralph (txwikinger) -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
"Soren Hansen" wrote: >On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 05:24:32PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: >> "Soren Hansen" wrote: >>>Again, I have to stress that noone was thrown out of #ubuntu-motu. A >>>more focused forum was simply pointed out. >> I get that you think it's OK to tell people who want to be a MOTU to >> go elsewhere if they express an interest in a KDE/Qt packages. > >I refuse to continue this discussion if you put words in my mouth. I >believe I made myself quite clear. > I have no doubt that's not what you intended to communicate. I trying to say how it comes across. Everyone has made it quite clear that there's no problem and MOTU is sufficiently welcoming to people who's interests include Qt/KDE packages. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 05:24:32PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > "Soren Hansen" wrote: >>Again, I have to stress that noone was thrown out of #ubuntu-motu. A >>more focused forum was simply pointed out. > I get that you think it's OK to tell people who want to be a MOTU to > go elsewhere if they express an interest in a KDE/Qt packages. I refuse to continue this discussion if you put words in my mouth. I believe I made myself quite clear. -- Soren Hansen Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
> If the situation were that he was asking for help with a specific package, > then I would agree. > > Scott K > > -- > Ubuntu-motu mailing list > Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu > We are all free to have opinions as long we don't try to push them as facts. Fact 1: someone asked for help how to become a MOTU and present interest for a particular Qt package Fact 2: someone else based on a QT package mention suggested additional resources related to that interest >From the logs you have sent there is no objective statement leading the "#ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel" idea, it is your opinion based on the chat interpretation, which in my opinion is not correct. Best regards, -- João Luís Marques Pinto GetDeb Team Leader http://www.getdeb.net http://blog.getdeb.net -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
Ar Mer, 2010-06-16 am 18:47 -0400, ysgrifennodd Scott Kitterman: > > "Christopher Swift" wrote: > > >Ar Mer, 2010-06-16 am 17:24 -0400, ysgrifennodd Scott Kitterman: > >> I get that you think it's OK to tell people who want to be a MOTU to go > >> elsewhere if they express an interest in a KDE/Qt packages. > >> > >> I disagree. > >> > >> Scott K > >> > >Scott, in this conversation from what I have read in the thread all > >that has happened is that the guy asking for help, shadeslayer, was > >advised to hang out in #kubuntu-devel since that is the location where > >people who can assist with KDE-related technical matters in Ubuntu are > >most likely to be found in one place. The MOTU team is a great team for > >assistance in packaging but if a specific KDE-related error popped up > >then hanging out in both #kubuntu-devel & #ubuntu-motu would allow that > >developer to get help and fix the problem much more easier since there > >is a great pool of assistance to choose from. > > > >In my humble opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with > >recommending a developer/contributor to be in two related channels which > >focus on two different aspects on which they will need to combine to do > >their task most efficiently. This is a big case of something out of > >nothing. > > > You're welcome to you're opinion. The problem is it's unrelated to what > happened. He didn't ask for help with Qt packaging. He asked for help > becoming a MOTU. > > If the situation were that he was asking for help with a specific package, > then I would agree. > > Scott K > In this instance, fabrice_sp was simply suggesting that connecting to other K* channels would help him out overall. He didn't say, "well to join the MOTU it is best off that you head to #kubuntu-*" but rather "if you hang out in #kubuntu-* you may also pick up some other tips". In the -motu channel itself he tried to link him to the /MOTU/Mentoring page on the wiki however the other contributor beat him to it. I can't really see what happened next after the message at 15:29:16 to see how that developed. Christopher Swift -- Christopher Swift -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
"Christopher Swift" wrote: >Ar Mer, 2010-06-16 am 17:24 -0400, ysgrifennodd Scott Kitterman: >> I get that you think it's OK to tell people who want to be a MOTU to go >> elsewhere if they express an interest in a KDE/Qt packages. >> >> I disagree. >> >> Scott K >> >Scott, in this conversation from what I have read in the thread all >that has happened is that the guy asking for help, shadeslayer, was >advised to hang out in #kubuntu-devel since that is the location where >people who can assist with KDE-related technical matters in Ubuntu are >most likely to be found in one place. The MOTU team is a great team for >assistance in packaging but if a specific KDE-related error popped up >then hanging out in both #kubuntu-devel & #ubuntu-motu would allow that >developer to get help and fix the problem much more easier since there >is a great pool of assistance to choose from. > >In my humble opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with >recommending a developer/contributor to be in two related channels which >focus on two different aspects on which they will need to combine to do >their task most efficiently. This is a big case of something out of >nothing. > You're welcome to you're opinion. The problem is it's unrelated to what happened. He didn't ask for help with Qt packaging. He asked for help becoming a MOTU. If the situation were that he was asking for help with a specific package, then I would agree. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
Ar Mer, 2010-06-16 am 17:24 -0400, ysgrifennodd Scott Kitterman: > I get that you think it's OK to tell people who want to be a MOTU to go > elsewhere if they express an interest in a KDE/Qt packages. > > I disagree. > > Scott K > Scott, in this conversation from what I have read in the thread all that has happened is that the guy asking for help, shadeslayer, was advised to hang out in #kubuntu-devel since that is the location where people who can assist with KDE-related technical matters in Ubuntu are most likely to be found in one place. The MOTU team is a great team for assistance in packaging but if a specific KDE-related error popped up then hanging out in both #kubuntu-devel & #ubuntu-motu would allow that developer to get help and fix the problem much more easier since there is a great pool of assistance to choose from. In my humble opinion, there is absolutely nothing wrong whatsoever with recommending a developer/contributor to be in two related channels which focus on two different aspects on which they will need to combine to do their task most efficiently. This is a big case of something out of nothing. Regards, Christopher Swift. -- Christopher Swift -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
"Soren Hansen" wrote: >On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 01:44:39PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: >> The conversation didn't start with "help me with this package". It >> started with "I want to be a MOTU". > >True. > >> My read is someone who said they wanted to become a MOTU was sent away >> and that's not very Ubuntu. #kubuntu-devel is not the best channel for >> people that want to be MOTU. > >That depends. If said person is mostly/only interested in KDE stuff, it >sounds (based on the name, I've never been there) like the best place >place to get guidance on that subject, and only a few e-mails ago you >becried the fact that people working on KDE had their MOTU application >rejected. If you believe working on Kubuntu should be a valid path to >becoming a MOTU, what's wrong with working more directly with the >Kubuntu developers in #kubuntu-devel as your way towards MOTU? > >Again, I have to stress that noone was thrown out of #ubuntu-motu. A >more focused forum was simply pointed out. > I get that you think it's OK to tell people who want to be a MOTU to go elsewhere if they express an interest in a KDE/Qt packages. I disagree. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 01:44:39PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > The conversation didn't start with "help me with this package". It > started with "I want to be a MOTU". True. > My read is someone who said they wanted to become a MOTU was sent away > and that's not very Ubuntu. #kubuntu-devel is not the best channel for > people that want to be MOTU. That depends. If said person is mostly/only interested in KDE stuff, it sounds (based on the name, I've never been there) like the best place place to get guidance on that subject, and only a few e-mails ago you becried the fact that people working on KDE had their MOTU application rejected. If you believe working on Kubuntu should be a valid path to becoming a MOTU, what's wrong with working more directly with the Kubuntu developers in #kubuntu-devel as your way towards MOTU? Again, I have to stress that noone was thrown out of #ubuntu-motu. A more focused forum was simply pointed out. -- Soren Hansen Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in?Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 01:44:39PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > The conversation didn't start with "help me with this package". It > started with "I want to be a MOTU". > > My read is someone who said they wanted to become a MOTU was sent away > and that's not very Ubuntu. #kubuntu-devel is not the best channel > for people that want to be MOTU. No, but it *is* a place for someone who wants to work on Qt/KDE packaging to coordinate their efforts with people who are also focused on Qt/KDE packaging. I didn't read it as "please leave #ubuntu-motu" but rather, "here's a suggested place to go (in addition to #ubuntu-motu) to get in contact with people who have more knowledge of the specific idioms of the package you're looking at", but perhaps I'm extending the benefit of the doubt too generously. I would hope that we encourage MOTU members to coordinate their efforts in specific areas with people who are already working in those areas. -- Steve Beattie http://NxNW.org/~steve/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:10:53AM -0400, ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: >>On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:03:52PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: >>> Today in my backscroll I see: >>> >>> [15:13:58] shadeslayer, what do you want? >>[...] >>> [15:29:16] fabrice_sp: that package was sponsored by >>> maco in #kubuntu-devel :P >>Sorry, maybe I'm being dense, but which part exactly is offensive? > The part where someone is told because the package name starts with q, > #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't see it. It's not that I don't understand or acknowledge the problem, I just don't see the problem manifested in the original conversation. Surely, it can't just be this: [15:28:46] if you are more interested in K packages, you could connect to kubuntu channels is it? If it is, let me offer a different perspective: I see Fabrice providing a friendly pointer to a forum where the other party might get more qualified, focused help by simply pointing out that this other forum exists. Nothing more. He's not telling anyone to go away, that they're off-topic, that they're not welcome, or that they're acting inappropriately. If people want to talk about working on server stuff, it's much more likely to catch my attention in #ubuntu-server, or if someone wants to work on virtualisation stuff, I'm much more likely to notice it in #ubuntu-virt, but if I should happen to see anyone ask about it in #ubuntu-motu, I'm happy to help them there as well. These other channels /do/ exist. Are /you/ saying people are not welcome /there/? I'll readily admit I haven't looked up the conversation in my logs, so there may be more context, but given the part you quoted, I really don't see the problem. Sorry. > This may seem over sensitive to you, but recently someone was turned > down for MOTU because they work on KDE packages and this sort of > pushing away people focused on one part of Universe only reinforces > the problem. This is not isolated to people working on KDE stuff. With the advent of more and more package sets, people are more likely to get granted upload privs to those rather than getting full MOTU or core-dev, since (at least I'm reasonably sure this is the case) being interested in working on a limited set of more or less related packages is more common than being interested in working on all sorts of completely random stuff. -- Soren Hansen Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 08:44:01AM -0400, Ralph Janke wrote: > The issue is not that any term that was used is offensive, it > is deeper subtlety that needs to be addressed. I wasn't using "offensive" in the sense of "profane", but more in the sense of "problematic." > As Scott has said, we had discussions about that before and at the UDS > to the point that there was the question if there should be a second > "MOTU" group for the KDE packages in universe. Understood, Scott gave a summary in his original e-mail. > So please let's be mindful, that we are one big family and that we are > all following the same goal. We support each other, we are inclusive, > not exclusive! I'm not trying to argue against inclusiveness and cooperation. I just don't understand which part of what was said in the conversation compelled Scott to write an e-mail about it. -- Soren Hansen Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
Hi, 2010/6/16 James Westby : > That's not how I read it. They were told that if they were intereted in > KDE packages they could hang around in the Kubuntu channels. And that's exactly what I meant with my comment. > I agree that telling someone they were in the wrong place would be > wrong, but if there are separate Kubuntu channels then I see nothing Totally agree on that! Cheers, Fabrice -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Wed, 16 Jun 2010 10:10:53 -0400, "ubu...@kitterman.com" wrote: > The part where someone is told because the package name starts with q, > #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel. The person doing the asking is in > fact very active in #kubuntu-devel, but was reaching out to MOTU to > try and broaden themselves when they got sent away. That's not how I read it. They were told that if they were intereted in KDE packages they could hang around in the Kubuntu channels. I agree that telling someone they were in the wrong place would be wrong, but if there are separate Kubuntu channels then I see nothing wrong with making sure that people interested in KDE know they exist. Thanks, James -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On 16.06.2010 16:10, ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: > The part where someone is told because the package name starts with q, > #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel. The person doing the asking is in fact > very active in #kubuntu-devel, but was reaching out to MOTU to try and > broaden themselves when they got sent away. > > This may seem over sensitive to you, but recently someone was turned down > for MOTU because they work on KDE packages and this sort of pushing away > people focused on one part of Universe only reinforces the problem. I think we need to get better at not thinking in too small categories. It's probably fine to say "If you can't find the experience that you're looking for in here, you might want to talk to the people in #XYZ" - it's what I'd do if it was about something specific as server packaging or the GNOME desktop or whatever. We can probably be more careful to avoid giving people the feeling "they're wrong here". Have a great day, Daniel -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
I think you are mislead by the term "Masters of the Universe". At no point is everyone in #ubuntu-motu a domain specific expert on every facet of every type of package. For expert advice, you probably want to join channels dedicated to that subject. I see MOTU as a channel for general questions and questions regarding generic packaging and preferences, and specific channels for detailed oriented. I don't think anyone says you can't ask on both forums, nor kicked anyone from the channel. On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 10:10 AM, ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: > > > "Soren Hansen" wrote: > >>On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:03:52PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: >>> Today in my backscroll I see: >>> >>> [15:13:58] shadeslayer, what do you want? >>[...] >>> [15:29:16] fabrice_sp: that package was sponsored by maco in >>> #kubuntu-devel :P >>> >>> This is completely inappropriate. Let me know when #ubuntu-motu is open for >>> everyone in the Ubuntu community. >> >>Sorry, maybe I'm being dense, but which part exactly is offensive? > > The part where someone is told because the package name starts with q, > #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel. The person doing the asking is in fact > very active in #kubuntu-devel, but was reaching out to MOTU to try and > broaden themselves when they got sent away. > > This may seem over sensitive to you, but recently someone was turned down > for MOTU because they work on KDE packages and this sort of pushing away > people focused on one part of Universe only reinforces the problem. > > Scott K > > -- > Ubuntu-motu mailing list > Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu > -- GPG Key ID: C92EF367 / 1428 FE8E 1E07 DDA8 EFD7 195F DCCD F5B3 C92E F367 WWW: http://www.sharms.org/blog -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
"Soren Hansen" wrote: >On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:03:52PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: >> Today in my backscroll I see: >> >> [15:13:58] shadeslayer, what do you want? >[...] >> [15:29:16] fabrice_sp: that package was sponsored by maco in >> #kubuntu-devel :P >> >> This is completely inappropriate. Let me know when #ubuntu-motu is open for >> everyone in the Ubuntu community. > >Sorry, maybe I'm being dense, but which part exactly is offensive? The part where someone is told because the package name starts with q, #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel. The person doing the asking is in fact very active in #kubuntu-devel, but was reaching out to MOTU to try and broaden themselves when they got sent away. This may seem over sensitive to you, but recently someone was turned down for MOTU because they work on KDE packages and this sort of pushing away people focused on one part of Universe only reinforces the problem. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
The issue is not that any term that was used is offensive, it is deeper subtlety that needs to be addressed. As Scott has said, we had discussions about that before and at the UDS to the point that there was the question if there should be a second "MOTU" group for the KDE packages in universe. However, we have decided, and I believe correctly, that this would not be the ideal outcome and hence there should not be a distinction between people working on KDE packages and other people. I have also never heard anybody in the motu channel or the motu ML that someone working mostly on Gnome packages should go to a special Gnome channel when they asked for mentorship to be a MOTU. Let remember what we stand for in Ubuntu. Respect and diversity. We are all working on a diverse set of packages. In some areas it makes sense that certain groups focus on a certain set of packages, however, this does not mean that those people are isolated from the larger community. I believe MOTU's purpose is to work on high quality packages in the universe repo. Nothing excludes people working a majority of time on KDE packages to do that. Hence the suggestion not to be welcomed in MOTU because of a preference or experience to a certain set of packages is inappropriate and counter-productive. How should someone get a broader horizon when he is sent away in the try to do so? Remember, it was asked for mentorship for MOTU, not particular questions for a Kubuntu package! So please let's be mindful, that we are one big family and that we are all following the same goal. We support each other, we are inclusive, not exclusive! Just my 2c! Ralph (txwikinger) On 06/16/2010 08:04 AM, Soren Hansen wrote: > On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:03:52PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > >> Today in my backscroll I see: >> >> [15:13:58] shadeslayer, what do you want? >> > [...] > >> [15:29:16] fabrice_sp: that package was sponsored by maco in >> #kubuntu-devel :P >> >> This is completely inappropriate. Let me know when #ubuntu-motu is open for >> everyone in the Ubuntu community. >> > Sorry, maybe I'm being dense, but which part exactly is offensive? > > -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Re: Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 10:03:52PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote: > Today in my backscroll I see: > > [15:13:58] shadeslayer, what do you want? [...] > [15:29:16] fabrice_sp: that package was sponsored by maco in > #kubuntu-devel :P > > This is completely inappropriate. Let me know when #ubuntu-motu is open for > everyone in the Ubuntu community. Sorry, maybe I'm being dense, but which part exactly is offensive? -- Soren Hansen Ubuntu Developer http://www.ubuntu.com/ -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
Please do not tell people interested in working on Qt/KDE apps in Universe #ubuntu-motu is the wrong channel
We had a session at UDS on the idea of creating a separate package set for Qt/KDE packages in Universe because there was a well founded feeling that people who happened to want to work in that area were being excluded from MOTU. The result of the discussion was that it was decided not to create this separate package set because we don't want to exclude such people from the pool of potential MOTU who work on making packages better. Today in my backscroll I see: [15:13:58] shadeslayer, what do you want? [15:14:17] !ask [15:14:17] Please don't ask to ask a question, simply ask the question (all on ONE line and in the channel, so that others can read and follow it easily). If anyone knows the answer they will most likely reply. :-) [15:14:40] fabrice_sp: like i said,a mentor for my path to MOTU [15:15:34] shadeslayer, the mentoring program is being reimplemented [15:15:48] do you already have the pointer to the wiki page? [15:15:55] fabrice_sp: no :( [15:16:03] let me look [15:16:20] fabrice_sp: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring ? [15:16:39] yes :-) [15:16:44] you are faster :-) [15:17:30] a lot of people are asking for mentoring and few mentors are available, so you can also make your own path [15:17:37] there is no predefined one [15:26:16] fabrice_sp: ah ok,well i did some contributing with http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/qtcreator [15:26:30] new package? [15:26:32] fabrice_sp: my lp page : launchpad.net/~rohangarg [15:26:37] fabrice_sp: new upstream release [15:26:51] fabrice_sp: qtcreator released their RC [15:27:48] ok now im going to learn merging :P [15:28:09] after that i have to file a MIR against linphone which i keep putting off everyday :D [15:28:28] eagles0513875: hang around here :) [15:28:42] i usually do :) [15:28:46] if you are more interested in K packages, you could connect to kubuntu channels [15:28:59] fabrice_sp: already in them :P [15:29:15] fabrice_sp: this channel servers for all derivatives of ubuntu [15:29:16] fabrice_sp: that package was sponsored by maco in #kubuntu-devel :P This is completely inappropriate. Let me know when #ubuntu-motu is open for everyone in the Ubuntu community. Scott K -- Ubuntu-motu mailing list Ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-motu
