Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 19:55, James Morrissey wrote: I found U1 to be very good with smallish files and a bit burdened with large files - I experimented with zipped files of 2GB or more, which would be useful for me. From Ubuntu 11.10 it was not too bad but it was hard to keep track of what stage it was at in a long upload process - my down / up is 7M/100K. sending tens of GB up takes many many days and nights, non stop. I have found UbuntuOne-Indiator to be pretty neat for monitoring how things are going. sudo add-apt-repository ppa:rye/ubuntuone-extras sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install indicator-ubuntuone From the webupd8 12.04 tweaks: http://www.webupd8.org/2012/04/things-to-tweak-after-installing-ubuntu.html Thanks, Will look -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 22:54, alan c wrote: There are strong moves to make Ubuntu good for a vast user base, but many existing users are diy users like my 80+ friend, and in terms of a discussion list like this one, they are novices and do not know what, say, a partition is, like most Windows users don't. Hello Alan and all And very few Windows home users ever reinstall their operating system. They tend to buy new computers instead, and get the latest release then. Hopefully we will see more Ubuntu systems being sold, but the 2 year LTS cadence means there will be more changes of distribution than in the Windows world. A number of people I know had problems with the iOS upgrades on their iPhones. Much confusion, repeated visits to clueless staff in phone shops until it got sorted. Is there a case for a modified installer for LTS releases? Perhaps with a keyboard option that makes the more advanced options available? Is there a case for an LTS - LTS upgrade process that keeps a 'restore point' (sorry for Windows terminology!) so that a return to the previous state is possible? Like Service Pack 3 on XP? Cheers -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 22:54, alan c wrote: On 29/04/12 21:04, Alan Bell wrote: it says do you want to upgrade? and you can say yes or no to it. Clearly yes is the preferred option, but why shouldn't we encourage people to upgrade to new cool stuff that will make their experience better (which is the aim of it, sometimes that doesn't work out so well)? Why? because some regular users like my 80+ year old friend (sadly now no longer with us) easily confuse an up'date' with an up'grade'. Whereas updates are usually fairly safe, upgrades are not. that is the bit that needs fixing, an upgrade should be as safe as an update. I did have a problem with an upgrade to 12.04 around the time of alpha1 but I think that bug got fixed, I have not seen it on any other hardware. Upgrade and update sound similar and seem similar. They appear even in the same window in the same situation. they do sound a bit similar, but it isn't the same window at all, I don't see how it could be more different without going down the Windows route of not offering online upgrades and making you get a CD (if you are on an LTS we don't offer the upgrade until the next LTS is out) http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/upgradepics/offer.png http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/upgradepics/confirm.png I was going to do more screenshots but my son got up early and found his laptop and pressed forward or next or confirm until it finished because he wanted to play games on CBBC. Some users are ordinary non technical people. Update or upgrade is all the same to them. One can consider that such ordinary human beings are, or are not, capable of using the first user account to have access to the admin level. My 92 year old relative, who only does online shopping and is closely administered by tech family members if changes are needed has a restricted account, but it is not appropriate for an independent active 84 year old who goes to windows club every week and uses Windows (was XP) routinely, and can and does expect to install stuff from say the ubuntu software centre when he needs to in his dual boot laptop. There are strong moves to make Ubuntu good for a vast user base, but many existing users are diy users like my 80+ friend, and in terms of a discussion list like this one, they are novices and do not know what, say, a partition is, like most Windows users don't. It is such users that will get tripped up by Upgrade vs Update. This is especially because the enthusiasm of our community and devs to encourage upgrades is aimed at the traditional enthusiast linux based os user, not the less competent joe or jane. Version upgrades are notified by default and the reason a health warning would be appropriate is because the least technical user is *likely* to fall for it, like my friend. well it is nice to get people upgraded because the new stuff is better. I wouldn't want to get into a situation where we leave people on old versions like people who bought a computer with Windows ME or Vista. Or will we move to a discussion about the wrong sort of leaves on the track or the wrong sort of users for Ubuntu, I trust not. It is the sort of thing which will hopefully get addressed before too long, now that unity is finding its feet. But it is an important type of issue and it is something which (Windows etc) are well versed at, although they have a knack of being condescending, and somehow untrustworthy. no, Ubuntu should be for all users, as should upgrades. This danger of 'relatively little knowledge' only exists in some areas, not all. Many aspects of Ubuntu really are very good for novices, I have many examples. However because the main user base currently has to self install, the less-technical end of this group can get trouble from information intended mostly for more experienced users. Not an upgrade situation: but a novice danger example was ubuntu 10.10 cd where one of the options for install caused loss of all the other partitions on the disc. This problem was a severe problem, but fortunately relatively few people chose the problem option. Of course, I did (!) and lost multiple OS's on the test machine, but then I had images. The problem remained unchanged throughout the life of 10.10. Even Mint had the same bug, they did not seem to think it important! My point here is that although such problems can be coped with by techy enthusiasts they are much more serious for novice but slightly adventurous Windows users, who have may have been encouraged by friends. that would be a release critical bug, and yes I know about that one and it is a heap easier to fix that before the CD images are created. That is why we want people to test the upgrades before release, if that one was found by someone before release it would have delayed the launch. The sort of trouble that some users can get themselves into - a type of user that we deliberately are aiming to increase in numbers - continues
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
Big clear warnings get a +1 from me - I was in #ubuntu and on the Ubuntu Forums the last few days and have noticed others have also been screwed by the upgrade - A lot of people assume it's safe, a lot of people have lost a lot of data attempting it. People also need a clear warning to backup their system - we assume it's common sense, but apparently most don't. Daniel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30 April 2012 09:35, Alan Bell alanb...@ubuntu.com wrote: ... http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/upgradepics/offer.png http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/upgradepics/confirm.png Perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a warning on one of these that all important data should be backed up before proceeding. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
People also need a clear warning to backup their system - we assume it's common sense, but apparently most don't. People need a clear warning to backup their data (not system) at all times. Not just when upgrading. I have never ever had a failure upgrading Debian or Ubuntu - but I have had a hard disk failure which trashed my home directory and a lot of data. For me, all I had to do was get another hard disk, reinstall Ubuntu, and restore a backup. Loss? Almost nothing. Backing up is important and vital at all times - not just for an upgrade. I do not have a lot of sympathy for users who never ever backup, and never enters their heads to do so. To me it is vitally important - I keep backups off site as well. -- Regards, Andy -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30 April 2012 11:15, Andy Braben andybra...@gmail.com wrote: ... Backing up is important and vital at all times - not just for an upgrade. I do not have a lot of sympathy for users who never ever backup, and never enters their heads to do so. To me it is vitally important - I keep backups off site as well. The reason many users do not have backups is not stupidity or laziness it is a lack of the knowledge that one should have backups, and lack of knowledge on how to do it. For those one should have sympathy. What to do about it I do not know. On the other hand there are also many cases of laziness and stupidity and I doubt if there are any of us here who have not fallen into that category with regards to backups at some point. It generally requires a disaster of some sort to make one see the error of ones ways :) Colin -- Regards, Andy -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 - catering tor nontechnical users
Hi folks, Looking at those screenshots, there is one GLARING omission... the default radio button is YES - I do want to upgrade. With the risk for non-technical users, surely this should have the default radio button (which actions when you hit Return) set as NO. This way, upgrades are a deliberate action. Maybe YES should take the user into a warning page, Show me what I get stuff, and almost an Are you sure cycle with several backout options offered. Non-tech users shouldn't be left with Accept default option... 'hose' system. Much better to be warned This will replace your operating environment - are you sure? Are you REALLY sure? Then go to the Start upgrade/cancel page. I found out the hard way (useful about having a second partition running 10;04 alpha and main env running 9.10 production when I bought my netbook preinstalled from Linux Emporium) that on a laptop, you need to have the battery in and nothing connected - relying purely on the on-board pointers during an upgrade. This type of thing would need to be warned about - aka You appear to be upgrading on a laptop. Before starting the upgrade, please ensure the battery is in, and disconnect all USB devices, especially mice. ... before kicking off... Consider the case of someone accepting upgrades onto a preinstalled machine. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 - catering tor nontechnical users
On 30/04/12 12:20, a...@acockell.eclipse.co.uk wrote: Hi folks, Looking at those screenshots, there is one GLARING omission... the default radio button is YES - I do want to upgrade. With the risk for non-technical users, surely this should have the default radio button (which actions when you hit Return) set as NO. This way, upgrades are a deliberate action. Maybe YES should take the user into a warning page, Show me what I get stuff, and almost an Are you sure cycle with several backout options offered. Non-tech users shouldn't be left with Accept default option... 'hose' system. Much better to be warned This will replace your operating environment - are you sure? Are you REALLY sure? Then go to the Start upgrade/cancel page. well it doesn't hose the system, it upgrades it to newer and better stuff. I found out the hard way (useful about having a second partition running 10;04 alpha and main env running 9.10 production when I bought my netbook preinstalled from Linux Emporium) that on a laptop, you need to have the battery in and nothing connected - relying purely on the on-board pointers during an upgrade. This type of thing would need to be warned about - aka You appear to be upgrading on a laptop. Before starting the upgrade, please ensure the battery is in, and disconnect all USB devices, especially mice. well that simply isn't the case, I just completed an upgrade on a laptop that has a totally broken battery, it is only in for cosmetic reasons. It had a USB mouse plugged in, as does my other laptop I upgraded a while back. If there is a problem then it is better to file a bug and get the problem fixed rather than giving up and warning people about known problems. ... before kicking off... Consider the case of someone accepting upgrades onto a preinstalled machine. for OEM builds where Canonical is involved they will be tested by the OEM team. Linux emporium ones are not certified I think, so they just get tested by linux emporium and anyone who has got one who feels like testing it before the final images. -- I work at http://libertus.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 - catering tor nontechnical users
Whoops - forgot to say what I DID learn the hard way. When I accepted the upgrade from ubuntu 10.04 alpha to 10.04 LTS, I had my mouse plugged in - the build then wouldn't read either my mouse or the onboard trackpad. I didn't make this mistake when upgrading the 910 instance on this or my main R61's Hardy install (again, originally preinstalled by Linux Emporium). Stuff like this needs to be flagged to users WAY before they finally accept the upgrade. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 - nontechnical users
hi Alan, well it doesn't hose the system, it upgrades it to newer and better stuff. Yeah - but from the perspective of the average non-tech user (who was just hitting Next Next Next so they could go to cBeebies - a major upgrade DOES need to be a deliberate action (return return return... WTF is my box doing?! Dumped into Unity after reboots - user completely lost) Hence my suggestion of making the default highlighted button no, so they have to actively choose yes. Thoughts? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04
I think the suggestion by kpb for a direct LTS - LTS upgrade path is inspired. I have successfully encouraged a number of low tech users to move from Windows and always put them onto the current LTS for the sake of stability, with excellent results. It would be very good for the image of Ubuntu if they could perform a reliable upgrade to the new LTS with a few mouse clicks, even if it does take a couple of hours. As things stand I don't really see an alternative to my having to visit each of them and perform a full backup and reinstall myself. Regards Nige -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04
I think that the passage When upgrading from a previous release, it is always a good idea to [[ https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Partitioning/Home/Moving | move /home]], it gives additional safe guards for your own data. In any case, taking a backup is recommended. Should be, placed everywhere that a user can upgrade from. Regards, Phill. On 30 April 2012 17:47, Nigel Verity nigelver...@hotmail.com wrote: I think the suggestion by kpb for a direct LTS - LTS upgrade path is inspired. I have successfully encouraged a number of low tech users to move from Windows and always put them onto the current LTS for the sake of stability, with excellent results. It would be very good for the image of Ubuntu if they could perform a reliable upgrade to the new LTS with a few mouse clicks, even if it does take a couple of hours. As things stand I don't really see an alternative to my having to visit each of them and perform a full backup and reinstall myself. Regards Nige -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
SNIP Update = minor updates to existing software, no big changes. Upgrade = major upgrade of the whole system, including new software versions, possibly significant changes in UI, needs a lot more time to do, etc. If worded correctly, it could act as a warning that it's an operation that takes time but also be an opportunity to highlight the new stuff that people may be interested in: get a few screenshots in, explain changes, a bit like what the installer does but before people actually commit to the upgrade. Is not the problem that the two words are so similar and the average punter may not appreciate the huge difference in meaning in Ubuntu-speak. Having said that I now need to think up some new terms as alternatives . . . -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04
On 30 April 2012 13:32, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: I think that the passage When upgrading from a previous release, it is always a good idea to [[https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Partitioning/Home/Moving | move /home]], it gives additional safe guards for your own data. In any case, taking a backup is recommended. Should be, placed everywhere that a user can upgrade from. Why does that give additional safeguards for the data? If a failed upgrade corrupts the home directory then it will do so whether it is on a separate partition or not. Also if an upgrade fails then a re-install can be performed keeping existing /home even if it is not in a separate partition (by telling the installer not to format the partition). Finally no inexperienced user is going to be able to follow those instructions. He is more likely to lose his data trying to move it to separate partition than he is doing an upgrade. Where does that passage come from? Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30 April 2012 13:33, MS m...@hipcat2.plus.com wrote: SNIP Update = minor updates to existing software, no big changes. Upgrade = major upgrade of the whole system, including new software versions, possibly significant changes in UI, needs a lot more time to do, etc. If worded correctly, it could act as a warning that it's an operation that takes time but also be an opportunity to highlight the new stuff that people may be interested in: get a few screenshots in, explain changes, a bit like what the installer does but before people actually commit to the upgrade. Is not the problem that the two words are so similar and the average punter may not appreciate the huge difference in meaning in Ubuntu-speak. Having said that I now need to think up some new terms as alternatives . . . Made even more confusing by apt-get update and apt-get upgrade and apt-get dist-upgrade which are entirely different meanings again. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04
I'd love to see how you re-install without touching /home if it is NOT a seperate partition which is the whole point of that link? Secondly, taking a backup oh your /home partition once you have it is 'walk in the park'. Thirdly, it is at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/GetLubuntuWhich states a couple of times about backing up. If you do not back up your important data, your data is not important to you. A a noob back in 9.04, I followed it with no problems - I just followed the instrcutions carefully (it was hosted on Psychocats back then). Regards, Phill. On 30 April 2012 18:17, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: On 30 April 2012 13:32, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: I think that the passage When upgrading from a previous release, it is always a good idea to [[https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Partitioning/Home/Moving | move /home]], it gives additional safe guards for your own data. In any case, taking a backup is recommended. Should be, placed everywhere that a user can upgrade from. Why does that give additional safeguards for the data? If a failed upgrade corrupts the home directory then it will do so whether it is on a separate partition or not. Also if an upgrade fails then a re-install can be performed keeping existing /home even if it is not in a separate partition (by telling the installer not to format the partition). Finally no inexperienced user is going to be able to follow those instructions. He is more likely to lose his data trying to move it to separate partition than he is doing an upgrade. Where does that passage come from? Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04
On 30 April 2012 14:04, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: I'd love to see how you re-install without touching /home if it is NOT a seperate partition which is the whole point of that link? The link is out of date. Since a couple of releases ago if you select the Something Else option at the start of the install and then select to install to the same partition as an existing Ubuntu but do /not/ specify that the partition should be formatted then it will replace all the system files but leave /home as it is. Effectively the same as if /home were on a separate partition. Secondly, taking a backup oh your /home partition once you have it is 'walk in the park'. That link does not even address that issue. Thirdly, it is at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/GetLubuntu Which states a couple of times about backing up. If you do not back up your important data, your data is not important to you. A a noob back in 9.04, I followed it with no problems - I just followed the instrcutions carefully (it was hosted on Psychocats back then). The link says that setting up the partition in the first place is beyond the scope of this page and links to a set of pages that the vast majority of non-geek users would be completely baffled by. Most of them probably don't even know what a partition is. Colin Regards, Phill. On 30 April 2012 18:17, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: On 30 April 2012 13:32, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: I think that the passage When upgrading from a previous release, it is always a good idea to [[https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Partitioning/Home/Moving | move /home]], it gives additional safe guards for your own data. In any case, taking a backup is recommended. Should be, placed everywhere that a user can upgrade from. Why does that give additional safeguards for the data? If a failed upgrade corrupts the home directory then it will do so whether it is on a separate partition or not. Also if an upgrade fails then a re-install can be performed keeping existing /home even if it is not in a separate partition (by telling the installer not to format the partition). Finally no inexperienced user is going to be able to follow those instructions. He is more likely to lose his data trying to move it to separate partition than he is doing an upgrade. Where does that passage come from? Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 09:35, Alan Bell wrote: easily confuse an up'date' with an up'grade'. Whereas updates are usually fairly safe, upgrades are not. that is the bit that needs fixing, an upgrade should be as safe as an update. Hi Alan There are *two* bits that need fixing not only the one bit! I wholeheartedly agree that an upgrade should be as safe as an update, certainly. I can see that particular issue taking some time to fix, and being quite hard to test and verify. Meanwhile, it is easier, and I think useful to arrange visually and in text etc, an intuitive and even more clear separation between upgrades and updates, I have new and non techy users most in mind here. We obviously hope there will be many more of them soon. Upgrade and update sound similar and seem similar. They appear even in the same window in the same situation. they do sound a bit similar, You understate this. They sound and look a lot similar. but it isn't the same window at all, The windows I have in mind are the regular 'update is ready' windows which traditionally has (or had) a top banner with such as (link also below) 'New Ubuntu release '11.04' is available [Upgrade] (button) this is (was) at the TOP of the window, it suggests a priority accorded to things seen first, and in a top, upper, position. Also the word 'New' is a powerful attention getter. Below this is a list of items, I recognise them as updates, and at the bottom of the windows to the right, are two buttons [Check] [Install Updates] Not far below, at the very base of the window are buttons [Settings] and at the right hand side[Close] http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll248/candtalan/Screenshot-UpdateManager.png So the key 'Updates' button does not have visual prominence. It is not even labelled simply 'Updates' It reads 'Install' 'Updates'. The word 'Install precedes the 'Updates', which is seen last. Also the word 'Install' is likely to be associated in a new novice users mind with a new installation of (Ubuntu), rather than perhaps the more mundane and routine maintenance. Perhaps. I am talking here about people who are not expecting to actually read words (!) When I used Windows for years, I became aware that I was conditioned to just click 'Yes' to choices, all choices, otherwise things did not actually work(!) What we present to new users will be seen and used by people with eyes like mine used to be, they will click without reading, and more likely, without understanding, probably, without even wanting to understand. So a correct form of words is not the only GUI human computer interface (HCI) aspect to be considered, the whole interaction is relevant. Human computer interface stuff can be subtle yet important. Marketing in our very retail based society relies heavily on impression. People now expect marketing, and seeing something prominent I think made my friend vulnerable to a mistake. Having said all this, I am also aware that many of the new Ubuntu users and continuing non techy users that I help, typically would say they see the invitation to upgrade as clearly something to avoid, one said (I just asked here) they would avoid it like the plague or similar words. This is typical of a non techy user who has clear decisions to leave anything unusual alone and refer it to their 'admin' friend (me) their helper. My aged friend I mentioned earlier was brass necked enough to have confidence - and misunderstood what he saw. Interestingly, I notice that many long time Windows users, albeit not very skilled, are determined to do stuff themselves, and they simply do not call me first. This always surprises me but it is evidently a fact of life. And they do not use ubuntu forums as an early port of call either. When I started using GNU/Linux I realised that its choices and yes/no offers were much more real than I had gotten used to with Windows. (If I am getting detailed it is because I have seen this sort of thing cause significant probs (my friend) and in a previous incarnation I designed HCI for control systems where getting it wrong might shut down your water supply) hth -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 13:49, Colin Law wrote: On 30 April 2012 13:33, MSm...@hipcat2.plus.com wrote: SNIP Update = minor updates to existing software, no big changes. Upgrade = major upgrade of the whole system, including new software versions, possibly significant changes in UI, needs a lot more time to do, etc. If worded correctly, it could act as a warning that it's an operation that takes time but also be an opportunity to highlight the new stuff that people may be interested in: get a few screenshots in, explain changes, a bit like what the installer does but before people actually commit to the upgrade. Is not the problem that the two words are so similar and the average punter may not appreciate the huge difference in meaning in Ubuntu-speak. Having said that I now need to think up some new terms as alternatives . . . Made even more confusing by apt-get update and apt-get upgrade and apt-get dist-upgrade which are entirely different meanings again. yes, although using a CL one can more easily expect some informed understanding of the terms. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 10:57, Daniel Case wrote: Big clear warnings get a +1 from me - I was in #ubuntu and on the Ubuntu Forums the last few days and have noticed others have also been screwed by the upgrade - A lot of people assume it's safe, a lot of people have lost a lot of data attempting it. People also need a clear warning to backup their system - we assume it's common sense, but apparently most don't. I am staggered when most people have no idea of backup. Or they say that I have nothing of valuable to get lost.. It is a shock when they find they 'had grown accustomed to the - 'whatever. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04
I think you under-estimate those who have been using *buntu for a while. They're more canny than a lot give credit to. For example we have a fairly n00b who just came onto IRC questioning why the upgrade wanted to install 2-zillion packages Good old https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PrecisePangolin/ReleaseNotes/UbuntuDesktop#PrecisePangolin.2BAC8-ReleaseNotes.2BAC8-CommonInfrastructure-1.Upgrades I wonder how many bork'ed installs are due to this? Regards, Phill. On 30 April 2012 18:49, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: On 30 April 2012 14:04, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: I'd love to see how you re-install without touching /home if it is NOT a seperate partition which is the whole point of that link? The link is out of date. Since a couple of releases ago if you select the Something Else option at the start of the install and then select to install to the same partition as an existing Ubuntu but do /not/ specify that the partition should be formatted then it will replace all the system files but leave /home as it is. Effectively the same as if /home were on a separate partition. Secondly, taking a backup oh your /home partition once you have it is 'walk in the park'. That link does not even address that issue. Thirdly, it is at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/GetLubuntuWhich states a couple of times about backing up. If you do not back up your important data, your data is not important to you. A a noob back in 9.04, I followed it with no problems - I just followed the instrcutions carefully (it was hosted on Psychocats back then). The link says that setting up the partition in the first place is beyond the scope of this page and links to a set of pages that the vast majority of non-geek users would be completely baffled by. Most of them probably don't even know what a partition is. Colin Regards, Phill. On 30 April 2012 18:17, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: On 30 April 2012 13:32, Phill Whiteside phi...@ubuntu.com wrote: I think that the passage When upgrading from a previous release, it is always a good idea to [[https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Partitioning/Home/Moving | move /home]], it gives additional safe guards for your own data. In any case, taking a backup is recommended. Should be, placed everywhere that a user can upgrade from. Why does that give additional safeguards for the data? If a failed upgrade corrupts the home directory then it will do so whether it is on a separate partition or not. Also if an upgrade fails then a re-install can be performed keeping existing /home even if it is not in a separate partition (by telling the installer not to format the partition). Finally no inexperienced user is going to be able to follow those instructions. He is more likely to lose his data trying to move it to separate partition than he is doing an upgrade. Where does that passage come from? Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 11:14, Colin Law wrote: On 30 April 2012 09:35, Alan Bellalanb...@ubuntu.com wrote: ... http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/upgradepics/offer.png http://people.ubuntu.com/~alanbell/upgradepics/confirm.png Perhaps it would be worthwhile to have a warning on one of these that all important data should be backed up before proceeding. A statement that data *loss* can sometimes occur is a useful complement to suggesting another course of action (do a backup). I know someone who stopped installing ubuntu temporarily because he had read on the CD packet that the 'default install' could wipe all his data. He took it seriously. The current 12.04 wallet words are more targeted: Explore and install Try Ubuntu before you install it – simply boot your computer from this CD. You can install Ubuntu alongside Windows or Mac OS X, or you can replace your current operating system entirely. Just back up your files and follow the installation instructions carefully. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
Hello All Hum backups Ubuntu One accounts get 5Gb free. I'm wondering if an option to automatically sync the Documents folder with Ubuntu One might help people not loose lots of work? I know it is getting into Google Chrome OS territory, and, yes, potentially another annoying and confusing choice when booting for the first time. Just a thought. Hope the chap who has nowhere to copy his 19Gb reads this: 5Gb on Ubuntu One, 2Gb on Dropbox and 5Gb on Google Drive. Use a local coffee bar or arts centre free wifi to do the intial sync to avoid topping out your broadband if it is capped. Better than loosing the lot. Cheers Original Message From: alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com To: ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Sent: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:38:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 On 30/04/12 10:57, Daniel Case wrote: Big clear warnings get a +1 from me - I was in #ubuntu and on the Ubuntu Forums the last few days and have noticed others have also been screwed by the upgrade - A lot of people assume it's safe, a lot of people have lost a lot of data attempting it. People also need a clear warning to backup their system - we assume it's common sense, but apparently most don't. I am staggered when most people have no idea of backup. Or they say that I have nothing of valuable to get lost.. It is a shock when they find they 'had grown accustomed to the - 'whatever. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
I been following this because I posted on here a couple of days ago, about me having screwed my installation...well I managed to find somebody willing to help, and got talked through the actual installation, and instead of installing over, just installing the package and keeping my home directory there, and if I hadnt had that person, I wouldnt have known how to set the / and /dev/sda2 and telling the installation to to reformat..as it is, I did it, but the person ended up having to log into my computer to fix the home directory and other things, as I would never have had a clue where to look or what to do, as it is, I now have the old home directory there, but as a separate directory, which is enough for me, but how he did that, i have no idea...problem is, I can not now get wireless, its gone, for some reason, I can only use the ethernet cable to connect, which he is now looking at Just thought I would post to let you know how I got on reinstalling -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 15:02, k...@sohcahtoa.org.uk wrote: Hello All Hum backups Ubuntu One accounts get 5Gb free. I'm wondering if an option to automatically sync the Documents folder with Ubuntu One might help people not loose lots of work? I know it is getting into Google Chrome OS territory, and, yes, potentially another annoying and confusing choice when booting for the first time. Just a thought. Hope the chap who has nowhere to copy his 19Gb reads this: 5Gb on Ubuntu One, 2Gb on Dropbox and 5Gb on Google Drive. Use a local coffee bar or arts centre free wifi to do the intial sync to avoid topping out your broadband if it is capped. Better than loosing the lot. I have not used it much yet but I think that the backup app in 12.04 - by default - tries to connect with ubuntu one! :-) This is a good idea in principle. However I will be interested to see how it works out. There are a real lot of hurdles from novice needing initial backup through to successful use of U1 for backup, not least a typically slow-ish upload rate. Most people are now familiar with usb sticks and external larger usb connected drives, and I suspect that is a more newcomer friendly route. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 15:03, scoundrel50a wrote: I been following this because I posted on here a couple of days ago, about me having screwed my installation...well I managed to find somebody willing to help, and got talked through the actual installation, and instead of installing over, just installing the package and keeping my home directory there, and if I hadnt had that person, I wouldnt have known how to set the / and /dev/sda2 and telling the installation to to reformat..as it is, I did it, but the person ended up having to log into my computer to fix the home directory and other things, as I would never have had a clue where to look or what to do, as it is, I now have the old home directory there, but as a separate directory, which is enough for me, but how he did that, i have no idea...problem is, I can not now get wireless, its gone, for some reason, I can only use the ethernet cable to connect, which he is now looking at Just thought I would post to let you know how I got on reinstalling Thanks for the feedback. Good that you found someone to help. Hope the wireless gets sorted ok, if not do come back and say? -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
Hello Glad you got your install sorted out. I'm trying to install Ubuntu One now. It's been sitting there for about 25 minutes doing nothing. The coffee bar I'm in now can do 1mb/s on download, I abuse it often (noone else uses a laptop in here) I'd hoped things had improved since the last time I tried it (around 11.04) but apparently not. So I'm with Alan C and USB storage I guess. Actually, an SD card would be quite nice and unobtrusive on netbooks with card readers... cheers Dont know about that, I have Ubuntu One and about 30gigs of pictures and home made videos, and I tried to copy one gig to Ubuntu, took hours, but now I backup using a separate harddrive... -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/2012 15:13, alan c wrote: On 30/04/12 15:03, scoundrel50a wrote: I been following this because I posted on here a couple of days ago, about me having screwed my installation...well I managed to find somebody willing to help, and got talked through the actual installation, and instead of installing over, just installing the package and keeping my home directory there, and if I hadnt had that person, I wouldnt have known how to set the / and /dev/sda2 and telling the installation to to reformat..as it is, I did it, but the person ended up having to log into my computer to fix the home directory and other things, as I would never have had a clue where to look or what to do, as it is, I now have the old home directory there, but as a separate directory, which is enough for me, but how he did that, i have no idea...problem is, I can not now get wireless, its gone, for some reason, I can only use the ethernet cable to connect, which he is now looking at Just thought I would post to let you know how I got on reinstalling Thanks for the feedback. Good that you found someone to help. Hope the wireless gets sorted ok, if not do come back and say? We just got the wireless back, not sure why it had a problem, but its take from 11am this morning till now to get my installation back, most of that was from remote connection... -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
I'm trying to install Ubuntu One now. It's been sitting there for about 25 minutes doing nothing. The coffee bar I'm in now can do 1mb/s on download, I abuse it often (noone else uses a laptop in here) I had some similar problems on both of the machines on which i tried an install. I canceled and reopened the dialogue and the screen came up that it was already installed. Not sure if this is worth a go from your side but it worked on two occasions for me. i have also had some speed problems with the uploading and downloading of files. Sometime it appears to run really quickly but at others it can be incredibly slow. Currently it appears to have stalled downloading stuff to one of my machines. I have heard that this has to do with the heavy amount of traffic on the Ubuntu servers around new release time. i am not sure if that explanation holds water. I'd hoped things had improved since the last time I tried it (around 11.04) but apparently not. So I'm with Alan C and USB storage I guess. Actually, an SD card would be quite nice and unobtrusive on netbooks with card readers... I would stick with it for a while longer. Previously i had a great experience using UbuntuOne to manage folders across a work computer and a laptop for work that i have to do away from the office. j -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
Hi James No, its just like last time. Two shift-alt-SysRq-b restarts later I've purged ubuntuone-client. I use dropbox to sync PC to netbook, which is horribly hassle free in comparison. It is a shame that I can't brag about Ubuntu One. I appreciate that there might be a bit more traffic than usual at the moment. Cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -Original Message- From: James Morrissey morrissey.jam...@gmail.com Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 15:31:58 To: UK Ubuntu Talkubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Reply-To: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 I'm trying to install Ubuntu One now. It's been sitting there for about 25 minutes doing nothing. The coffee bar I'm in now can do 1mb/s on download, I abuse it often (noone else uses a laptop in here) I had some similar problems on both of the machines on which i tried an install. I canceled and reopened the dialogue and the screen came up that it was already installed. Not sure if this is worth a go from your side but it worked on two occasions for me. i have also had some speed problems with the uploading and downloading of files. Sometime it appears to run really quickly but at others it can be incredibly slow. Currently it appears to have stalled downloading stuff to one of my machines. I have heard that this has to do with the heavy amount of traffic on the Ubuntu servers around new release time. i am not sure if that explanation holds water. I'd hoped things had improved since the last time I tried it (around 11.04) but apparently not. So I'm with Alan C and USB storage I guess. Actually, an SD card would be quite nice and unobtrusive on netbooks with card readers... I would stick with it for a while longer. Previously i had a great experience using UbuntuOne to manage folders across a work computer and a laptop for work that i have to do away from the office. j -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
Hi All On 30 April 2012 15:10, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote: On 30/04/12 15:02, k...@sohcahtoa.org.uk wrote: Hello All Hum backups Ubuntu One accounts get 5Gb free. I'm wondering if an option to automatically sync the Documents folder with Ubuntu One might help people not loose lots of work? I know it is getting into Google Chrome OS territory, and, yes, potentially another annoying and confusing choice when booting for the first time. Just a thought. Hope the chap who has nowhere to copy his 19Gb reads this: 5Gb on Ubuntu One, 2Gb on Dropbox and 5Gb on Google Drive. Use a local coffee bar or arts centre free wifi to do the intial sync to avoid topping out your broadband if it is capped. Better than loosing the lot. I have not used it much yet but I think that the backup app in 12.04 - by default - tries to connect with ubuntu one! :-) This is a good idea in principle. However I will be interested to see how it works out. There are a real lot of hurdles from novice needing initial backup through to successful use of U1 for backup, not least a typically slow-ish upload rate. Most people are now familiar with usb sticks and external larger usb connected drives, and I suspect that is a more newcomer friendly route. I am 'that chap' with 19GB to back up. I wouldn't use U1. It does too much syncing with my other machines. I keep it for files that I want to sync everywhere (like the file with the router's WEP key). Plus it is slow as a backup medium. I don't have capped broadband, which is good as I don't like coffee :) You are all right. I must look at backups, but I think it is a bit of a cop out to say it's your fault if an upgrade fails. True, I did run a risk on a machine that I know crashes a lot and I am lucky to have got out of it relatively unscathed. I have also be able to resize partitions, etc without having made backups. But I do think that developers should try to design upgrades that can recover from interruptions. I'm also not keen on the 'do a re-install' mantra. Its great if you have a minimal system, like I had on my netbook, but my desktop has loads of extras installed that I would have to remember and re-install. (That is a drawback, I suppose of keeping the initial install down to CD size - it doesn't even have LO Base). Then there is always all that re-inputting of email and instant messenger account details. I would be keen on keeping with 12.04 LTS until the next LTS, but I know I will lose out on upgrades to packages like LO. If I were on Windows, there would be no problem getting the next LO release. I hope developers will look at getting more package updates into LTS point releases. Tony -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 11:29, Colin Law wrote: On 30 April 2012 11:15, Andy Braben andybra...@gmail.com wrote: ... Backing up is important and vital at all times - not just for an upgrade. I do not have a lot of sympathy for users who never ever backup, and never enters their heads to do so. To me it is vitally important - I keep backups off site as well. The reason many users do not have backups is not stupidity or laziness it is a lack of the knowledge that one should have backups, and lack of knowledge on how to do it. For those one should have sympathy. What to do about it I do not know. Good thing that 12.04 comes with a backup tool that actually pops up automatically at least once to ask you to configure backup settings then! You don't have to use it but it is pro-active in telling you it's there and available. This should fix the knowledge problem. Laziness and stupidity, you just can't fix. Bruno -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
Hello Tony Sorry about 'chap', no offense meant. It would be good if the upgrade process was better than it is for people. As Alan C is always emphasising as Ubuntu gets on consumer devices, laptops etc more people are going to have to cope with an 'operating system replacement' which is what an upgrade is. I think a large external hard drive would be a good thing to have independent of that. I have had a hard drive fail (ok, one, years ago) and I have had one laptop motherboard fail (hard drive ok but had to wait a week or two for laptop to be fixed. Cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ -Original Message- From: Tony Pursell a...@princeswalk.fsnet.co.uk Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:00:26 To: UK Ubuntu Talkubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Reply-To: UK Ubuntu Talk ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30 April 2012 16:52, Keith Burnett k...@sohcahtoa.org.uk wrote: Hello Tony Sorry about 'chap', no offense meant. No offense was taken. Keith It would be good if the upgrade process was better than it is for people. As Alan C is always emphasising as Ubuntu gets on consumer devices, laptops etc more people are going to have to cope with an 'operating system replacement' which is what an upgrade is. .. and thanks for the support on this point. I think it all comes down to whether people serve the system or the system serves the people. Maybe Ubuntu is getting to a difficult place in transitioning to a much more consumer orientated product. Up to now, in the Linux world, developers could turn round and say, if you don't like it you can either lump it or write it yourself. And quite rightly so, because many Linux developers are volunteers following their own technical vocation. OK, I'm not sure where I am going with this argument, and I am sure not going to start developer bashing, but I think we all need to look at how attitudes must change to produce a more consumer oriented product. And one change must be towards protecting all those non-techies, that we all dearly want to be using Ubuntu, from their follies and weaknesses when it come to tasks like system upgrades. I think a large external hard drive would be a good thing to have independent of that. I have had a hard drive fail (ok, one, years ago) and I have had one laptop motherboard fail (hard drive ok but had to wait a week or two for laptop to be fixed. Cheers -- Keith Burnett http://sohcahtoa.org.uk/ Tony -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On Mon, 30 Apr 2012 14:38:49 +0100, alan c aecl...@candt.waitrose.com wrote, perhaps among other things: On 30/04/12 10:57, Daniel Case wrote: Big clear warnings get a +1 from me - I was in #ubuntu and on the Ubuntu Forums the last few days and have noticed others have also been screwed by the upgrade - A lot of people assume it's safe, a lot of people have lost a lot of data attempting it. People also need a clear warning to backup their system - we assume it's common sense, but apparently most don't. I am staggered when most people have no idea of backup. Or they say that I have nothing of valuable to get lost.. It is a shock when they find they 'had grown accustomed to the - 'whatever. Amen! I had to learn the hard way, myself. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 16:00, Tony Pursell wrote: I would be keen on keeping with 12.04 LTS until the next LTS, but I know I will lose out on upgrades to packages like LO. If I were on Windows, there would be no problem getting the next LO release. I hope developers will look at getting more package updates into LTS point releases. If you are on a desktop, I wonder if you had considered popping an extra hard drive in for data backup? I us a 1TB drive in a trayless caddy. All non-live data is stored there and also on DVD archives that I update from time to time. Only live data in sync with Ubuntu One and my netbook is stored on the working drive so it is fast and easy to re-install whenever necessary. As for applications, I simply note down the names of all the ones I have installed: it's quick and easy to re-install them plus there are always some that I know I won't need again so I reduce clutter at the same time. I also have a third drive installed internally. I alternate between one drive carrying the testing version and the other with the stable release and I dual boot these. Regards,Barry. -- Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team. http://ubuntuadverts.org/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 30/04/12 15:48, Keith Burnett wrote: Hi James No, its just like last time. Two shift-alt-SysRq-b restarts later I've purged ubuntuone-client. I use dropbox to sync PC to netbook, which is horribly hassle free in comparison. It is a shame that I can't brag about Ubuntu One. I appreciate that there might be a bit more traffic than usual at the moment. I found U1 to be very good with smallish files and a bit burdened with large files - I experimented with zipped files of 2GB or more, which would be useful for me. From Ubuntu 11.10 it was not too bad but it was hard to keep track of what stage it was at in a long upload process - my down / up is 7M/100K. sending tens of GB up takes many many days and nights, non stop. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
I found U1 to be very good with smallish files and a bit burdened with large files - I experimented with zipped files of 2GB or more, which would be useful for me. From Ubuntu 11.10 it was not too bad but it was hard to keep track of what stage it was at in a long upload process - my down / up is 7M/100K. sending tens of GB up takes many many days and nights, non stop. I have found UbuntuOne-Indiator to be pretty neat for monitoring how things are going. sudo add-apt-repository ppa:rye/ubuntuone-extras sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install indicator-ubuntuone From the webupd8 12.04 tweaks: http://www.webupd8.org/2012/04/things-to-tweak-after-installing-ubuntu.html j -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
I'm also not keen on the 'do a re-install' mantra. Its great if you have a minimal system, like I had on my netbook, but my desktop has loads of extras installed that I would have to remember and re-install. i am of the same opinion. Wasn't there the apt on CD thing? And also you could sync your softwarecentre installed programs. But I guess that does not cover things compiled by yourself? (That is a drawback, I suppose of keeping the initial install down to CD size - it doesn't even have LO Base). Then there is always all that re-inputting of email and instant messenger account details. There is a way to save mail settings of thunderbird. But gwibber and messenging account are not there... Might be a good suggestion. What i did as a back up was that i had an ext4 partition of 53gb i copied my 20gb home folder there. And i then upgrated. (Finally know the difference with updating thanks) Is that less secure? I guess a full harddrive failure could happen? I would like to know how to do a \home partition without having to reinstall but this might be too much. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
[ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
I've spent quite a bit of time on Ubuntu Help today as the questions were overwhelming the regular folk so I took a few on board. There are a vast number of folk who have virtually trashed their system by trying to do an upgrade. This is exactly the problem I had when upgrading my netbook, so I did a clean install. But I'm fairly paranoid about backups so this was easy. Can we press for much bigger warnings in future telling folk that if they go any further with the upgrade, they risk losing everything? The live-CD gives a low key warning of sorts, but the updater just gets on with it and thus trashes stuff. I think the word 'sorry' has got into more of my replies today than ever before. Regards,Barry. -- Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team. http://ubuntuadverts.org/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 18:55, Barry Drake wrote: I've spent quite a bit of time on Ubuntu Help today where exactly? as the questions were overwhelming the regular folk so I took a few on board. There are a vast number of folk who have virtually trashed their system by trying to do an upgrade. This is exactly the problem I had when upgrading my netbook, so I did a clean install. But I'm fairly paranoid about backups so this was easy. Can we press for much bigger warnings in future telling folk that if they go any further with the upgrade, they risk losing everything? it would be better to fix the problem The live-CD gives a low key warning of sorts, but the updater just gets on with it and thus trashes stuff. I think the word 'sorry' has got into more of my replies today than ever before. Regards,Barry. are these upgrades from 10.04 or 11.10? What problems are people having? Alan. -- Libertus Solutions http://libertus.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 18:58, Alan Bell wrote: On 29/04/12 18:55, Barry Drake wrote: I've spent quite a bit of time on Ubuntu Help today where exactly? Launchpad - at :https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu This is not somewhere I usually lurk but it was so overwhelmed that I thought I'd put my two pence in. Most of the questions I dealt with were after a clean install, and were fairly simple ones because the desktop is so different. as the questions were overwhelming the regular folk so I took a few on board. There are a vast number of folk who have virtually trashed their system by trying to do an upgrade. it would be better to fix the problem I agree, but the problem is so widespread and well distributed that I don't think it is going to get fixed. I think it is a product of the very high level of change between the distributions. are these upgrades from 10.04 or 11.10? Both basically. What problems are people having? All manner of things varying from no control of sound, no sound at all, Libreoffice not working, bookmarks missing - to be honest just about everything you can think of. As well as that there were various crash messages that nearly got fixed I saw some of this and mentioned it on the list a few days ago. Upgrading to 12.04 is disastrous. I actually wonder if anyone has succeeded. Regards,Barry. -- Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team. http://ubuntuadverts.org/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 19:37, Barry Drake wrote: On 29/04/12 18:58, Alan Bell wrote: On 29/04/12 18:55, Barry Drake wrote: I've spent quite a bit of time on Ubuntu Help today where exactly? Launchpad - at :https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu This is not somewhere I usually lurk but it was so overwhelmed that I thought I'd put my two pence in. Most of the questions I dealt with were after a clean install, and were fairly simple ones because the desktop is so different. as the questions were overwhelming the regular folk so I took a few on board. There are a vast number of folk who have virtually trashed their system by trying to do an upgrade. it would be better to fix the problem I agree, but the problem is so widespread and well distributed that I don't think it is going to get fixed. I think it is a product of the very high level of change between the distributions. There aren't that many more changes than normal in this distribution (apart from multi-arch) so if there are problems it's worth trying to understand and fix them so that they can benefit the next release, especially considering that this is an LTS so there will be dot releases. are these upgrades from 10.04 or 11.10? Both basically. What problems are people having? All manner of things varying from no control of sound, no sound at all, Libreoffice not working, bookmarks missing - to be honest just about everything you can think of. As well as that there were various crash messages that nearly got fixed I saw some of this and mentioned it on the list a few days ago. Upgrading to 12.04 is disastrous. I actually wonder if anyone has succeeded. I did. On two machines with no problem. I don't think upgrading to 12.04 is disastrous. I think two things are happening: 1. Ubuntu has a very wide user base with a lot of different configs so even if 1% of users have issues, it will appear as a very large number. 2. Up to now, it had only been people ready to try the alpha or beta who had been upgrading. If something fundamental had been broken, it would have been found then. The people now upgrading are the bulk of users which results in much more varied hardware and software combination, some of which may have issues. There was a great talk by a Debian guy at FOSDEM earlier this year about testing. He was explaining that the combination of hardware and software out there is bewildering and asserting that among the attendees in the auditorium (and even the whole conference), there was probably no two machines with identical setup. Cheers, Bruno -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 20:11, Bruno Girin wrote: I did. On two machines with no problem. I don't think upgrading to 12.04 is disastrous. I think two things are happening: 1. Ubuntu has a very wide user base with a lot of different configs so even if 1% of users have issues, it will appear as a very large number. another thing that is going on is that we are probably supporting more machines than before, so we might be adding 5 systems that wouldn't boot and work correctly before and breaking 1. You only get to hear about the 1. I have upgraded several machines to 12.04 without incident, they just got a bit faster. Alan. -- Libertus Solutions http://libertus.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 18:55, Barry Drake wrote: I've spent quite a bit of time on Ubuntu Help today as the questions were overwhelming the regular folk so I took a few on board. There are a vast number of folk who have virtually trashed their system by trying to do an upgrade. This is exactly the problem I had when upgrading my netbook, so I did a clean install. But I'm fairly paranoid about backups so this was easy. Can we press for much bigger warnings in future telling folk that if they go any further with the upgrade, they risk losing everything? The live-CD gives a low key warning of sorts, but the updater just gets on with it and thus trashes stuff. I think the word 'sorry' has got into more of my replies today than ever before. Regards,Barry. Bad news Barry, thank you. I believe that a clear, offered option of some sort of backup as part of a preliminary to install or to version upgrade is an important missing feature. My guess is that few if any devs get vulnerable to the sort of issues a non techie Windows user faces. Most novices respond to a backup question with a blank look. Use of a CD to install is probably daunting enough to warn off the less confident users, but the online upgrade is SO beguiling, and is also very assertively advertised, that vulnerable novices can make significant mistakes or worse. I know that one vulnerable guy I helped did a version upgrade by mistake when all he thought he doing was a regular update. It had unfortunate consequences, it was going from Kubuntu (kde2) to Kubuntu (kde3) and the gui shock he experienced - with me not being present to help or explain - was enough to keep him away from K/Ubuntu and he quietly then stayed on Windows from then onwards. As Ubuntu rolls out to a greatly expanded user base, I believe it is important to show a more prudent face about version upgrades - and installs. In a related experience, I am still aware that a while back, the Wubi based Ubuntu systems were occasionally vulnerable to some grub updates (grub2 maybe? less so for grub 1), for some reason, I am not sure what. But a non booting Wubi system is not something I would want a novice to risk, and afaik, wubi is *aimed* at novices. I sometimes check what the latest information is about this weakness, and I think it still exists. Unfortunately, I know people who have chosen to use a wubi install, and treat it as if it is enduring, not a temporary easy trial. I do hope they have a backup. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 20:54, alan c wrote: On 29/04/12 18:55, Barry Drake wrote: I've spent quite a bit of time on Ubuntu Help today as the questions were overwhelming the regular folk so I took a few on board. There are a vast number of folk who have virtually trashed their system by trying to do an upgrade. This is exactly the problem I had when upgrading my netbook, so I did a clean install. But I'm fairly paranoid about backups so this was easy. Can we press for much bigger warnings in future telling folk that if they go any further with the upgrade, they risk losing everything? The live-CD gives a low key warning of sorts, but the updater just gets on with it and thus trashes stuff. I think the word 'sorry' has got into more of my replies today than ever before. Regards,Barry. Bad news Barry, thank you. I believe that a clear, offered option of some sort of backup as part of a preliminary to install or to version upgrade is an important missing feature. My guess is that few if any devs get vulnerable to the sort of issues a non techie Windows user faces. Most novices respond to a backup question with a blank look. well about the only thing we do actually know about people facing an upgrade is that they are not fresh from Windows and have been using Ubuntu for a bit! I am just doing an upgrade on my son's laptop, it popped up a dialog telling me there was an upgrade and a heap of stuff I didn't read. It then told me something about third party sources, but there was only a close button on that so I didn't have to understand it. What would be the point of adding a backup option if novices wouldn't take it? What would such an option do? Where would it back stuff up to? What would be the procedure for doing a restore from this backup? Would that reliably work? Use of a CD to install is probably daunting enough to warn off the less confident users, but the online upgrade is SO beguiling, and is also very assertively advertised, that vulnerable novices can make significant mistakes or worse. it says do you want to upgrade? and you can say yes or no to it. Clearly yes is the preferred option, but why shouldn't we encourage people to upgrade to new cool stuff that will make their experience better (which is the aim of it, sometimes that doesn't work out so well)? I know that one vulnerable guy I helped did a version upgrade by mistake when all he thought he doing was a regular update. It had unfortunate consequences, it was going from Kubuntu (kde2) to Kubuntu (kde3) and the gui shock he experienced - with me not being present to help or explain - was enough to keep him away from K/Ubuntu and he quietly then stayed on Windows from then onwards. yes, but the upgrade worked, he just didn't get on with the new features he upgraded to. As Ubuntu rolls out to a greatly expanded user base, I believe it is important to show a more prudent face about version upgrades - and installs. In a related experience, I am still aware that a while back, the Wubi based Ubuntu systems were occasionally vulnerable to some grub updates (grub2 maybe? less so for grub 1), for some reason, I am not sure what. But a non booting Wubi system is not something I would want a novice to risk, and afaik, wubi is *aimed* at novices. I sometimes check what the latest information is about this weakness, and I think it still exists. Unfortunately, I know people who have chosen to use a wubi install, and treat it as if it is enduring, not a temporary easy trial. I do hope they have a backup. yeah, wubi is a bit of a worry, unfortunately with bad practices of using all 4 primary partitions by OEMs it remains one of the easiest ways to get Ubuntu to coexist with Windows on a single drive for people who want that. -- Libertus Solutions http://libertus.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
Hi All On 29 April 2012 19:37, Barry Drake ubuntu-advertis...@gmx.com wrote: On 29/04/12 18:58, Alan Bell wrote: On 29/04/12 18:55, Barry Drake wrote: I've spent quite a bit of time on Ubuntu Help today where exactly? Launchpad - at :https://answers.launchpad.**net/ubuntuhttps://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu This is not somewhere I usually lurk but it was so overwhelmed that I thought I'd put my two pence in. Most of the questions I dealt with were after a clean install, and were fairly simple ones because the desktop is so different. as the questions were overwhelming the regular folk so I took a few on board. There are a vast number of folk who have virtually trashed their system by trying to do an upgrade. it would be better to fix the problem I agree, but the problem is so widespread and well distributed that I don't think it is going to get fixed. I think it is a product of the very high level of change between the distributions. are these upgrades from 10.04 or 11.10? Both basically. What problems are people having? All manner of things varying from no control of sound, no sound at all, Libreoffice not working, bookmarks missing - to be honest just about everything you can think of. As well as that there were various crash messages that nearly got fixed I saw some of this and mentioned it on the list a few days ago. Upgrading to 12.04 is disastrous. I actually wonder if anyone has succeeded. I'm replying to Barry because of his last remark, but I have read the discussion on backups, and I have to say that they are problematical for me, just because I have nowhere I can write my 19gb of /home to. So I have to risk it and try and get out of problems. So here is my experience of upgrading 4 machines, all from 11.10 to 12.04, in the order I did them: 1) Asus EEEPC 1015PEM Netbook. I used a live USB. I chose the 11.10 to 12.04 update. The upgrade crashed on me soon after choosing the flower as my picture (don't know if that was significant). I got the chance to do a bug report (from the live USB system) then I rebooted to the Netbook and got a terminal which did not accept any kind of login.Luckily, this machine has little data on it, so I rebooted to the live USB, saved the few files I had to the 4GB SD card and did a fresh install of 12.04. 2) Asus EEEPC original type with 4GB and 7 screen. This runs Lubuntu. As it has hardly any free space I used the Alternate ISO on a USB stick and did a successful 11.10 to 12.04 upgrade. 3) Acer Revo (forget which model, but it sits next to the TV as it has hdmi output) I used the live USB again and chose the 11.10 to 12.04 update. The upgrade was successful, if a bit nail bitingly slow at the end giving rise to some anxiety that it had stalled. A finer grained indication of progress would have been re-assuring. 4) HP Pavillion Desktop - my main PC I wanted use the live USB again but there was no 11.10 to 12.04 update offered. (Why?) So I chose the online upgrade. This went OK until a short way into the updating when the machine crashed (going into screensaver, I think), so I had to reboot it. I got to a sort of login screen, but I couldn't log in, so I switched to a terminal and finally got it completed from the command line. Was advised to do dkpg --configure -a then sudo apt-get dist-upgrade -f which did not work without the -f I have to admit that I half expected this machine to crash. It has been doing it regularly. But I'm glad I got out of it. I'm just waiting to find out what is broken. So that was my experience. Certainly not one I would want to put an Ubuntu rookie through. Tony -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 21:04, Alan Bell wrote: it says do you want to upgrade? and you can say yes or no to it. Clearly yes is the preferred option, but why shouldn't we encourage people to upgrade to new cool stuff that will make their experience better (which is the aim of it, sometimes that doesn't work out so well)? Why? because some regular users like my 80+ year old friend (sadly now no longer with us) easily confuse an up'date' with an up'grade'. Whereas updates are usually fairly safe, upgrades are not. Upgrade and update sound similar and seem similar. They appear even in the same window in the same situation. Some users are ordinary non technical people. Update or upgrade is all the same to them. One can consider that such ordinary human beings are, or are not, capable of using the first user account to have access to the admin level. My 92 year old relative, who only does online shopping and is closely administered by tech family members if changes are needed has a restricted account, but it is not appropriate for an independent active 84 year old who goes to windows club every week and uses Windows (was XP) routinely, and can and does expect to install stuff from say the ubuntu software centre when he needs to in his dual boot laptop. There are strong moves to make Ubuntu good for a vast user base, but many existing users are diy users like my 80+ friend, and in terms of a discussion list like this one, they are novices and do not know what, say, a partition is, like most Windows users don't. It is such users that will get tripped up by Upgrade vs Update. This is especially because the enthusiasm of our community and devs to encourage upgrades is aimed at the traditional enthusiast linux based os user, not the less competent joe or jane. Version upgrades are notified by default and the reason a health warning would be appropriate is because the least technical user is *likely* to fall for it, like my friend. Or will we move to a discussion about the wrong sort of leaves on the track or the wrong sort of users for Ubuntu, I trust not. It is the sort of thing which will hopefully get addressed before too long, now that unity is finding its feet. But it is an important type of issue and it is something which (Windows etc) are well versed at, although they have a knack of being condescending, and somehow untrustworthy. This danger of 'relatively little knowledge' only exists in some areas, not all. Many aspects of Ubuntu really are very good for novices, I have many examples. However because the main user base currently has to self install, the less-technical end of this group can get trouble from information intended mostly for more experienced users. Not an upgrade situation: but a novice danger example was ubuntu 10.10 cd where one of the options for install caused loss of all the other partitions on the disc. This problem was a severe problem, but fortunately relatively few people chose the problem option. Of course, I did (!) and lost multiple OS's on the test machine, but then I had images. The problem remained unchanged throughout the life of 10.10. Even Mint had the same bug, they did not seem to think it important! My point here is that although such problems can be coped with by techy enthusiasts they are much more serious for novice but slightly adventurous Windows users, who have may have been encouraged by friends. The sort of trouble that some users can get themselves into - a type of user that we deliberately are aiming to increase in numbers - continues to need a type of design vigilance which is a bit unusual in the GNU/Linux world. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Upgrading to 12.04 ....
On 29/04/12 22:54, alan c wrote: On 29/04/12 21:04, Alan Bell wrote: it says do you want to upgrade? and you can say yes or no to it. Clearly yes is the preferred option, but why shouldn't we encourage people to upgrade to new cool stuff that will make their experience better (which is the aim of it, sometimes that doesn't work out so well)? Why? because some regular users like my 80+ year old friend (sadly now no longer with us) easily confuse an up'date' with an up'grade'. Whereas updates are usually fairly safe, upgrades are not. Upgrade and update sound similar and seem similar. They appear even in the same window in the same situation. Some users are ordinary non technical people. Update or upgrade is all the same to them. One can consider that such ordinary human beings are, or are not, capable of using the first user account to have access to the admin level. My 92 year old relative, who only does online shopping and is closely administered by tech family members if changes are needed has a restricted account, but it is not appropriate for an independent active 84 year old who goes to windows club every week and uses Windows (was XP) routinely, and can and does expect to install stuff from say the ubuntu software centre when he needs to in his dual boot laptop. There are strong moves to make Ubuntu good for a vast user base, but many existing users are diy users like my 80+ friend, and in terms of a discussion list like this one, they are novices and do not know what, say, a partition is, like most Windows users don't. It is such users that will get tripped up by Upgrade vs Update. This is especially because the enthusiasm of our community and devs to encourage upgrades is aimed at the traditional enthusiast linux based os user, not the less competent joe or jane. Version upgrades are notified by default and the reason a health warning would be appropriate is because the least technical user is *likely* to fall for it, like my friend. Alan, that's the best explanation I've seen so far of why it's important to highlight the difference between update and upgrade. You should open a bug and explain it this way. Example wordings would be useful, e.g.: Update = minor updates to existing software, no big changes. Upgrade = major upgrade of the whole system, including new software versions, possibly significant changes in UI, needs a lot more time to do, etc. If worded correctly, it could act as a warning that it's an operation that takes time but also be an opportunity to highlight the new stuff that people may be interested in: get a few screenshots in, explain changes, a bit like what the installer does but before people actually commit to the upgrade. Cheers, Bruno -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
