Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Avi Greenbury]

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

The point about this particular application (Hyperion) was that it was
one RECOMMENDED by the vendor of our ERM as being the best one!


Well, if they're supporting the entire environment I suppose that's 
alright then. But, in that case, you had no need to involve IT at all.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 24/06/2011 10:14, Avi Greenbury wrote:

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

Not so. How can the IT dept evaluate a FINANCIAL reporting application?
Especially an internationally-recognised market leader? The IT dept is a
SERVICE dept. If the MD says "I want such and such a software because I
think we can benefit from it, the IT dept shouldn't throw a hissy fit
just because the MD didn't consult them about what software HE wants -
they should buckle down and install it.


The model I've previously seen employed is finance says to IT "We'd 
like to run WonderApp, will it work on our systems" and IT have a look 
and either say 'yes' or 'no' and, perhaps, if the latter suggest 
alternatives or say what the systems need in order to make it work.


In much the same way as IT don't just drop multi-MW power draw on a 
circuit without first forewarning whoever looks after the building.


The point about this particular application (Hyperion) was that it was 
one RECOMMENDED by the vendor of our ERM as being the best one!


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[gazz]

On Fri, 2011-06-24 at 12:20 +0100, a...@acockell.eclipse.co.uk wrote:

> 
> When I did support, i lost count of the number of times I had to
> explain why a new app would take 6 months to get onto the platform.
> 

Hahaha, yes, it drives me mad when people look at me like I'm just being
difficult cos I suggest we might want to draw up a strategic plan to
migrate them from Microsoft networks to Ubuntu over months instead of
just twitching my nose and - 'pt' - all their proprietary software
and associated data is now magically running on Ubuntu in the blink of
an eye ;) 

Paula
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

On 24 June 2011 10:03, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

> **
> Not so. How can the IT dept evaluate a FINANCIAL reporting application?
> Especially an internationally-recognised market leader? The IT dept is a
> SERVICE dept. If the MD says "I want such and such a software because I
> think we can benefit from it, the IT dept shouldn't throw a hissy fit just
> because the MD didn't consult them about what software HE wants - they
> should buckle down and install it.
>

Rubbish... they should be involved in the consultation... it may be that
there is alternative software that would better integrate with what is
already there and, indeed, which is more easily customised to the business's
exact requirements.

In 23 years of working in IT I have seen MANY instances where the business
"think they know what they want" and are swayed by a smooth-talking salesman
into buying something that then proves an absolute nightmare for the IT
department to support and maintain.

It is the job of the IT department to ensure that the business get the best
solutions, and the best support.  To bypass them negates their entire
purpose.

You talk about them as if they are merely "cogs in the machine", there to do
exactly what the business THINK they want without questioning ("they should
buckle down and install it").  If that is what you want then I'd sack the
lot of them and take on some 16-year-olds with no qualifications apart from
the ability to click "Next -> Next -> Next" on an install.  Quite why you'd
need an IT department to do that all bemuses me... presumably YOU could have
"installed it" if that was all you required?

*shudder*

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Simon Greenwood]

On 24 June 2011 10:03, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

> **
> On 24/06/2011 08:52, Sean Miller wrote:
>
> On 24 June 2011 08:45, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:
>
>> As an example - in a quoted UK IT sector company, we (the Group Finance
>> Dept) decided that we wanted a reporting tool to sit on top of JD Edwards,
>> our ERM software. After research we decided on Hyperion which is (or was 15
>> years ago) one of the best in the business. So we bought it. The IT dept
>> flatly refused to install it because we (the Finance Dept who needed to USE
>> it) hadn't consulted them first...!!
>
>
> I bet you'd have been pissed off if the IT Department had decided to take
> it upon themselves to prepare the annual accounts without telling you...
> swings and roundabouts...  if the management accountants are going to
> evaluate, install and support software why have an IT department at all?
>
> I'd have not been amused either...
>
> Sean
>
>
> Not so. How can the IT dept evaluate a FINANCIAL reporting application?
> Especially an internationally-recognised market leader? The IT dept is a
> SERVICE dept. If the MD says "I want such and such a software because I
> think we can benefit from it, the IT dept shouldn't throw a hissy fit just
> because the MD didn't consult them about what software HE wants - they
> should buckle down and install it.
>
>

As a grizzled sysadmin I have to disagree entirely. What happens when the
software stops working and the IT department is expected to fix it? The IT
department is there to provide a service but they can't provide it if they
don't how to support it.

There is a balance to be had: I'm not sure if this is still the case, but BT
and other former subsidiaries were still providing Windows XP and Internet
Explorer 6 as the standard build on new desktop machines a couple of years
ago with very locked down machines, to the point where it does actually
prevent people from doing work, but ton the other hand you really don't
people installing torrent software to download last night's Coronation
Street (yes, that's extreme but the middle is neither of those).

s/

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Avi Greenbury]

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

Not so. How can the IT dept evaluate a FINANCIAL reporting application?
Especially an internationally-recognised market leader? The IT dept is a
SERVICE dept. If the MD says "I want such and such a software because I
think we can benefit from it, the IT dept shouldn't throw a hissy fit
just because the MD didn't consult them about what software HE wants -
they should buckle down and install it.


The model I've previously seen employed is finance says to IT "We'd like 
to run WonderApp, will it work on our systems" and IT have a look and 
either say 'yes' or 'no' and, perhaps, if the latter suggest 
alternatives or say what the systems need in order to make it work.


In much the same way as IT don't just drop multi-MW power draw on a 
circuit without first forewarning whoever looks after the building.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[mac]

On 24/06/2011 10:03, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:


Not so. How can the IT dept evaluate a FINANCIAL reporting application?
Especially an internationally-recognised market leader? The IT dept is a
SERVICE dept. If the MD says "I want such and such a software because I
think we can benefit from it, the IT dept shouldn't throw a hissy fit
just because the MD didn't consult them about what software HE wants -
they should buckle down and install it.



Well, I guess the MD has an IT dept to advise him/her on technical 
matters.  So surely the process should be:  finance guys want to be able 
to do some stuff, and they find a package that will do it;  finance and 
IT *discuss* whether the package will do the job cost-effectively and 
will integrate into IT systems OK;  finance and IT reach an agreed 
decision (or escalate to Board/MD if they can't).


The problem here seems to be substituting a playground brawl for a 
decision process:  "I want this, so do it!" versus "You didn't ask me, 
so shan't!"  What a catastrophic way for a business to work!


mac







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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 24/06/2011 08:52, Sean Miller wrote:
On 24 June 2011 08:45, Gordon Burgess-Parker > wrote:


As an example - in a quoted UK IT sector company, we (the Group
Finance Dept) decided that we wanted a reporting tool to sit on
top of JD Edwards, our ERM software. After research we decided on
Hyperion which is (or was 15 years ago) one of the best in the
business. So we bought it. The IT dept flatly refused to install
it because we (the Finance Dept who needed to USE it) hadn't
consulted them first...!!


I bet you'd have been pissed off if the IT Department had decided to 
take it upon themselves to prepare the annual accounts without telling 
you... swings and roundabouts...  if the management accountants are 
going to evaluate, install and support software why have an IT 
department at all?


I'd have not been amused either...

Sean


Not so. How can the IT dept evaluate a FINANCIAL reporting application? 
Especially an internationally-recognised market leader? The IT dept is a 
SERVICE dept. If the MD says "I want such and such a software because I 
think we can benefit from it, the IT dept shouldn't throw a hissy fit 
just because the MD didn't consult them about what software HE wants - 
they should buckle down and install it.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

On 24 June 2011 08:45, Gordon Burgess-Parker  wrote:

> As an example - in a quoted UK IT sector company, we (the Group Finance
> Dept) decided that we wanted a reporting tool to sit on top of JD Edwards,
> our ERM software. After research we decided on Hyperion which is (or was 15
> years ago) one of the best in the business. So we bought it. The IT dept
> flatly refused to install it because we (the Finance Dept who needed to USE
> it) hadn't consulted them first...!!


I bet you'd have been pissed off if the IT Department had decided to take it
upon themselves to prepare the annual accounts without telling you... swings
and roundabouts...  if the management accountants are going to evaluate,
install and support software why have an IT department at all?

I'd have not been amused either...

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 23/06/2011 23:27, Avi wrote:

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

RM and their ilk are acting like 1980's IT depts...they allow only
what softwareTHEY approve of.

Perhaps I'm missing the point here but I'm intrigued - how to these
'modern' IT departments manage letting people run whatever they like?

Maybe "modern" IT depts are still the same - I've been out of it for ten 
years..
As a retired Management and Systems Accountant, my view was always that 
the IT dept was there to provide a service TO the organisation, not the 
other way round!
As an example - in a quoted UK IT sector company, we (the Group Finance 
Dept) decided that we wanted a reporting tool to sit on top of JD 
Edwards, our ERM software. After research we decided on Hyperion which 
is (or was 15 years ago) one of the best in the business. So we bought 
it. The IT dept flatly refused to install it because we (the Finance 
Dept who needed to USE it) hadn't consulted them first...!!


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Alan Bell]

not sure I fully understand the relevance of this to the reapproval, but 
feel free to raise it on tuesday.


Alan.

On 23/06/11 23:29, Phill Whiteside wrote:
The world moved on and people got lazy? Well, that's how I like to see 
it - I'd hate to read of any more 'kick-backs' being paid.


There is another email thread now started, so not too sure which one 
to place this in.


But, I do know that uk-LoCo is up for re-approval On that vein, 
even though this is a new project to me (about 3 weeks), I'd suggest 
having a quick look at just how professional this appears? 
http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/pagesmith/5


I, for one, am going to pursue it. I have been in touch with said 
university team and it is certainly not a dormant project. Even just a 
mention of so doing may tick a box on the council who re-approve? 
There is obviously a depth of feeling on the matter of getting some 
sort of template, easily updated, compliant available.


Possibly one of the Alan's could let me know if you as ubuntu-uk are 
interested in my pursuing this further for uk, or just for the team so 
far I want to learn the system with.


Regards,

Phill.




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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Phill Whiteside]

The world moved on and people got lazy? Well, that's how I like to see it -
I'd hate to read of any more 'kick-backs' being paid.

There is another email thread now started, so not too sure which one to
place this in.

But, I do know that uk-LoCo is up for re-approval On that vein, even
though this is a new project to me (about 3 weeks), I'd suggest having a
quick look at just how professional this appears?
http://phpwebsite.appstate.edu/pagesmith/5

I, for one, am going to pursue it. I have been in touch with said university
team and it is certainly not a dormant project. Even just a mention of so
doing may tick a box on the council who re-approve? There is obviously a
depth of feeling on the matter of getting some sort of template, easily
updated, compliant available.

Possibly one of the Alan's could let me know if you as ubuntu-uk are
interested in my pursuing this further for uk, or just for the team so far I
want to learn the system with.

Regards,

Phill.


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:18 PM, Tony Pursell
wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 23:08 +0100, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> > On 23/06/2011 20:19, Grant Sewell wrote:
> > >
> > > To an extent, I agree with you.  However, there is also the argument
> > > that RM et al are merely services and if the people to whom they are
> > > providing a service demand XYZ then it would be inappropriate for RM et
> > > al to provide PQR instead.
> >
> > Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Companies like RM tender to the
> > LEA NOT to individual schools.
>
> What has happened then to 'Local Management of Schools'?  When I was a
> school governor, admittedly some 20 years ago, schools could opt out of
> the LEA negotiated contracts.
>
> > If a school (or a teacher) decides it want a particular piece of
> > software then RM has to "validate" it first. If it fails "validation"
> > then RM won't install it, no matter what the teacher wants, or how good
> > the software id or who produces it. They exert a VERY tight control on
> > what is installed on "their" systems...(I know - my wife works for a
> > very large provider of Educational Software - probably the largest in
> > the world, and they STILL have to have their products go through this
> > "validation" process)
> >
> >
> > > Get the teachers on board, the school will follow, the LEAs after that
> > > and the service providers will either have to change their service or
> > > risk not being the service provider any more.
> > >
> > See abovein the present setup companies like RM are there to make
> > money, NOT to provide a service. The hoops software suppliers have to
> > jump through is unbelievable.
> > RM and their ilk are acting like 1980's IT depts...they allow only what
> > softwareTHEY approve of.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Avi]

Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> RM and their ilk are acting like 1980's IT depts...they allow only
> what softwareTHEY approve of.

Perhaps I'm missing the point here but I'm intrigued - how to these
'modern' IT departments manage letting people run whatever they like?

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 23/06/2011 23:18, Tony Pursell wrote:


What has happened then to 'Local Management of Schools'?  When I was a
school governor, admittedly some 20 years ago, schools could opt out of
the LEA negotiated contracts.


They certainly can opt out - but as the LEA controls the network and 
Internet access, it's very difficult (and expensive) to do so...


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Tony Pursell]

On Thu, 2011-06-23 at 23:08 +0100, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:
> On 23/06/2011 20:19, Grant Sewell wrote:
> >
> > To an extent, I agree with you.  However, there is also the argument
> > that RM et al are merely services and if the people to whom they are
> > providing a service demand XYZ then it would be inappropriate for RM et
> > al to provide PQR instead.
> 
> Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Companies like RM tender to the 
> LEA NOT to individual schools.

What has happened then to 'Local Management of Schools'?  When I was a
school governor, admittedly some 20 years ago, schools could opt out of
the LEA negotiated contracts.  

> If a school (or a teacher) decides it want a particular piece of 
> software then RM has to "validate" it first. If it fails "validation" 
> then RM won't install it, no matter what the teacher wants, or how good 
> the software id or who produces it. They exert a VERY tight control on 
> what is installed on "their" systems...(I know - my wife works for a 
> very large provider of Educational Software - probably the largest in 
> the world, and they STILL have to have their products go through this 
> "validation" process)
> 
> 
> > Get the teachers on board, the school will follow, the LEAs after that
> > and the service providers will either have to change their service or
> > risk not being the service provider any more.
> >
> See abovein the present setup companies like RM are there to make 
> money, NOT to provide a service. The hoops software suppliers have to 
> jump through is unbelievable.
> RM and their ilk are acting like 1980's IT depts...they allow only what 
> softwareTHEY approve of.
> 






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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 23/06/2011 20:19, Grant Sewell wrote:


To an extent, I agree with you.  However, there is also the argument
that RM et al are merely services and if the people to whom they are
providing a service demand XYZ then it would be inappropriate for RM et
al to provide PQR instead.


Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Companies like RM tender to the 
LEA NOT to individual schools.
If a school (or a teacher) decides it want a particular piece of 
software then RM has to "validate" it first. If it fails "validation" 
then RM won't install it, no matter what the teacher wants, or how good 
the software id or who produces it. They exert a VERY tight control on 
what is installed on "their" systems...(I know - my wife works for a 
very large provider of Educational Software - probably the largest in 
the world, and they STILL have to have their products go through this 
"validation" process)




Get the teachers on board, the school will follow, the LEAs after that
and the service providers will either have to change their service or
risk not being the service provider any more.

See abovein the present setup companies like RM are there to make 
money, NOT to provide a service. The hoops software suppliers have to 
jump through is unbelievable.
RM and their ilk are acting like 1980's IT depts...they allow only what 
softwareTHEY approve of.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Grant Sewell]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 11:47:29 +0100
Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

> On 11/06/2011 11:43, Sean Miller wrote:
> > The key is that we need to EDUCATE the "educators" that
> > accessibility is important, and Word/Excel files disempower those
> > without the software to read
> I think the key point is not so much that the teachers need educating
> - they use what's placed in front of them.
> The key point IMHO is to educate the IT PROVIDERS such as RM that 
> Windows and Microsoft products are just one of a number of
> alternatives available.
> It's the IT PROVIDERS who sign exclusive contracts with the LEA (the 
> individual schools have no say in who provides their networking, 
> hardware etc) and it's they who need to change and accent new formats 
> and ideas of accessibility and open source.

To an extent, I agree with you.  However, there is also the argument
that RM et al are merely services and if the people to whom they are
providing a service demand XYZ then it would be inappropriate for RM et
al to provide PQR instead.

Get the teachers on board, the school will follow, the LEAs after that
and the service providers will either have to change their service or
risk not being the service provider any more.

Grant.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 11/06/2011 14:08, Sean Miller wrote:

If they've got an even remotely competent IT Teacher


IT teachers in primary schools tend to be the PT teacher because he/she 
hasn't enough PT to warrant a whole postso it's a bit of a lottery 
as to their IT skills...


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 23/06/2011 11:47, Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote:

accent new formats

"Accent"? Darned spellcheckers! Should be "accept" of course

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Gordon Burgess-Parker]

On 11/06/2011 11:43, Sean Miller wrote:
The key is that we need to EDUCATE the "educators" that accessibility 
is important, and Word/Excel files disempower those without the 
software to read
I think the key point is not so much that the teachers need educating - 
they use what's placed in front of them.
The key point IMHO is to educate the IT PROVIDERS such as RM that 
Windows and Microsoft products are just one of a number of alternatives 
available.
It's the IT PROVIDERS who sign exclusive contracts with the LEA (the 
individual schools have no say in who provides their networking, 
hardware etc) and it's they who need to change and accent new formats 
and ideas of accessibility and open source.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[gazz]

On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 11:01 +0100, Dan Attwood wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This must be a pretty common problem - most schools, I
> imagine, want
> roughly the same bits and pieces on their site. Does there not
> already
> exist a plug-and-play school website where, as Wordpress is
> for blogs,
> they can just install it and get a quite agreeable website in
> about
> fifteen minutes?
> 
> 
> The edugeek site has a custom version of Joomla available that aims to
> do this 
> 
> 
> You'd still need the skill in house to set, use and administrate
> Joomla though. Which as noted above may not be present
> 
> 


I had 3 reps from primary schools at the last Wordpress training session
I did in Redbridge - Wordpress is a lot to bite off though for
non-techies. Two of them managed to get Wordpress up and get a basic
grasp of how to edit it in a day but a third was struggling helplessly.
We provide the monthly free volunteer help sessions for people but
Ilford is a long way from Tower Bridge. 

That training was funded by the local council - of course, funding for
this kind of thing is much thinner on the ground now. I'm probably going
to have to start charging for a lot of the training we used to do for
free. We'll hold on to the free monthly sessions though, and try to get
a bit of funding to pay back volunteer's transport costs etc. 

I've been thinking about developing the remote element a bit more -
having people who aren't present at Fossbox be able to help out more,
but not sure how this would work. We've tried before but it was hard to
manage because we get so busy I tend to 'forget' about people who aren't
there clamouring in person! Would need to organise someone to manage
this aspect. Apologies to people who offered this kind of help but
didn't really get it taken up properly - I'm thinking about how this
could work better. 

There's no getting away from it, people need help. 

Paula


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Yorvyk]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:56:34 +0100
Jon Reynolds  wrote:

>   
> 
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:46:10 +0100, Sean Miller wrote: 
> 
> > Mr. D.
> Archer
> > Y4 
> > Beech
> > Curriculum, Racist Incidents, Literacy, Music,
> Mentor, KS2 liaison
> > 
> > ^^ as above, from website!!
> > 
> > I think I
> commented too on the fact that having a teacher responsible for "racist
> incidents" suggested that they must have some history in that school
> with such is it a very ethnically diverse area?
> > 
> > Sean
> 
> No, not
> at all really. Surprised. Its only a Lower school, Reception and
> Infants, not as far as Juniors. Its a small village school. 
> 
Apparently all schools have to to have somebody responsible for "racist 
incidents"   


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Dan Attwood]

>
>
>> This must be a pretty common problem - most schools, I imagine, want
> roughly the same bits and pieces on their site. Does there not already
> exist a plug-and-play school website where, as Wordpress is for blogs,
> they can just install it and get a quite agreeable website in about
> fifteen minutes?
>
> The edugeek site has a custom version of Joomla available that aims to do
this

You'd still need the skill in house to set, use and administrate Joomla
though. Which as noted above may not be present
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Avi Greenbury]

Sarah Chard wrote:

On Mon, 2011-06-20 at 08:27 +0100, Jon Reynolds wrote:


Well I was thinking perhaps I should approach them and offer to do
them a new website (my contribution towards PTA and all that) :)

I think a very simple Drupal installation would be worlds apart
from what they have today.


now that sounds like a good idea - perhaps this would be a way for
all of you who are parents to talk to your children's schools about
open source  - if the websites are badly designed or could do with a
make-over then why not offer to help


This must be a pretty common problem - most schools, I imagine, want
roughly the same bits and pieces on their site. Does there not already
exist a plug-and-play school website where, as Wordpress is for blogs,
they can just install it and get a quite agreeable website in about
fifteen minutes?

Perhaps a drupal module or something is a better place to do it?

Either way I'd rather see concerted effort to solve what is apparently
an endemic problem than individuals individually patching its symptoms.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Simon Greenwood]

School websites are mostly in-school projects as part of ICT courses, or if
they are better looking, are as often as not built by an enthusiastic staff
member. The latter is the case at the school that my wife works at. For some
reason school websites are rarely seen as essential and the way that IT is
outsourced in many schools makes it difficult to even host something within
the system. As is often the case with corporate systems, third parties
produce services for schools that will just about do the job, but don't
actually represent the school and which are, almost inevitably, made in
Sharepoint or some other MS technology.

s/

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Yorvyk]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:32:20 +0100
Avi Greenbury  wrote:

> On 20/06/11 08:26, Jon Reynolds wrote:
> > On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:04:42 +0100, Yorvyk wrote:
> >> I wouldn't send kids there, as Mr Archer seems to be rather nasty.
> >> He's responsible for racist incidents.
> >>
> > I don't know who Mr Archer is but what do you back up your
> > accusations with?
> 
> I think he's just poking fun at the working/layout of the 'Our Staff' 
> page, rather then making a genuine accusation of anything.
> 
That was my intention, perhaps I should have put a smiley in there.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sarah Chard]

O
n Mon, 2011-06-20 at 08:27 +0100, Jon Reynolds wrote:

>  Well I was thinking perhaps I should approach them and offer to do
> them 
>  a new website (my contribution towards PTA and all that) :)
> 
>  I think a very simple Drupal installation would be worlds apart from 
>  what they have today.


now that sounds like a good idea - perhaps this would be a way for all
of you who are parents to talk to your children's schools about open
source  - if the websites are badly designed or could do with a
make-over then why not offer to help and then you'll meet the staff
responsible for ICT and you can talk to them about Ubuntu and FOSS - and
if you are not a parent you can still offer to help.
This loco could provide some back-up support for members who want to do
this and/or create some guidelines for schools along the lines of
website do's and don'ts (incorporating the criticisms made in this
thread) in a simple and positive way plus suggestions of FOSS software
schools could use and a plug for Ubuntu. 
Anyone interested?
Sarah


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Paul Sutton]

On 20/06/11 08:46, Sean Miller wrote:
Mr. D. Archer 	Y4 	Beech 	Curriculum, Racist Incidents, Literacy, 
Music, Mentor, KS2 liaison



^^ as above, from website!!

I think I commented too on the fact that having a teacher responsible 
for "racist incidents" suggested that they must have some history in 
that school with such is it a very ethnically diverse area?


Sean
perhaps someone should e-mail the school from an outsiders point of view 
and let them know so they can clarify or make it clearer on the site,
it easy to write something that looks fine to the person writing it but 
then to someone else can be interpreted differently.



i have done this before when I find mistakes and in most cases people 
are thankful for my input.



paul


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Jon Reynolds]

  

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:46:10 +0100, Sean Miller wrote: 

> Mr. D.
Archer
> Y4 
> Beech
> Curriculum, Racist Incidents, Literacy, Music,
Mentor, KS2 liaison
> 
> ^^ as above, from website!!
> 
> I think I
commented too on the fact that having a teacher responsible for "racist
incidents" suggested that they must have some history in that school
with such is it a very ethnically diverse area?
> 
> Sean

No, not
at all really. Surprised. Its only a Lower school, Reception and
Infants, not as far as Juniors. Its a small village school. 

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

Mr. D. Archer Y4 Beech Curriculum, Racist Incidents, Literacy, Music,
Mentor, KS2 liaison
^^ as above, from website!!

I think I commented too on the fact that having a teacher responsible for
"racist incidents" suggested that they must have some history in that school
with such is it a very ethnically diverse area?

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Jon Reynolds]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 08:32:20 +0100, Avi Greenbury wrote:

On 20/06/11 08:26, Jon Reynolds wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:04:42 +0100, Yorvyk wrote:

I wouldn't send kids there, as Mr Archer seems to be rather nasty.
He's responsible for racist incidents.


I don't know who Mr Archer is but what do you back up your
accusations with?


I think he's just poking fun at the working/layout of the 'Our Staff'
page, rather then making a genuine accusation of anything.

--
Avi


Oh... :)

I wouldn't know, I cant get to the Our Staff page as I don't have Java 
installed on this PC, ha ha!

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Avi Greenbury]

On 20/06/11 08:26, Jon Reynolds wrote:

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:04:42 +0100, Yorvyk wrote:

I wouldn't send kids there, as Mr Archer seems to be rather nasty.
He's responsible for racist incidents.


I don't know who Mr Archer is but what do you back up your
accusations with?


I think he's just poking fun at the working/layout of the 'Our Staff' 
page, rather then making a genuine accusation of anything.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Jon Reynolds]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:41:42 +0100, Alan Lord (News) wrote:

On 17/06/11 14:33, Jon Reynolds wrote:

I've just had a look at my little un's school website and the first
thing that stop you doing anything useful, i.e. like using the
navigation menu, is the fact that for some (cannot imagine) reason, 
it

is required to install Java on your machine, just so you can use the
navigation links??

WHY would they do this? Is this a serious case for giving someone 
some
education? The simplest of things - a navmenu, why should I install 
(and
run) Java just to access a menu to another (probably) static web 
page?!?


http://www.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk/

(created in FrontPage)


That is an abysmal website - looks like something from the early days
of the Internet...

The validator doesn't like it much either:

http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk%2F+&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0


http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk%2F&profile=css21&usermedium=all&warning=1&vextwarning=&lang=en

There are quite a few MSO objects scattered around the code.

Bleugy


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Well I was thinking perhaps I should approach them and offer to do them 
a new website (my contribution towards PTA and all that) :)


I think a very simple Drupal installation would be worlds apart from 
what they have today.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Jon Reynolds]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:04:42 +0100, Yorvyk wrote:




I think you're all being rather mean about the site,  look at the
increase in hits it's had over the last few days :)  At least it
doesn't have 'Best viewed in IE4 or Netscape 2 at 1024X768'.
Looking at the 'Our Staff' page, though, I wouldn't send kids there,
as Mr Archer seems to be rather nasty.  He's responsible for racist
incidents.


--
Steve Cook (Yorvyk)

http://lubuntu.net


--
I don't know who Mr Archer is but what do you back up your accusations 
with? My son has recently started going to this school. The state of 
their website should not be used to judge the quality of the school 
itself, as it has been well discussed here, that the teachers cannot be 
expected to be good at everything. Seeing as they have a very good 
OFSTEAD report I am happy to send my child there (and do). Lets be 
careful not to become derogative about people based on website quality.


Jon Reynolds (j0nr)
http://www.jcrdevelopments.com

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Yorvyk]

On Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:14:49 +0100
Dan Fish  wrote:

> On 18/06/11 14:35, Rob Beard wrote:
> > On 18/06/11 10:14, Sean Miller wrote:
> >> Yikes... !!
> >>
> >> "Recognised for ICT"?  Perhaps that was due to being "pioneers" and
> >> setting up their website at a time most others didn't have one... alas,
> >> I think it's rather overdue for an upgrade.
> >>
> >> Sean
> >>
> >
> > My god what an awful site.  I gave up after waiting 15 seconds for it 
> > to load, clicked the stop button and a god awful monstrosity came up.
> >
> > Animated gifs, comic sans font?  Heck the baby on there should have 
> > been a dancing baby!
> >
> > Rob
> >
> That is truly dreadful...makes the (thankfully) deceased geocities 
> look good ;)
> Dan
> 
I think you're all being rather mean about the site,  look at the increase in 
hits it's had over the last few days :)  At least it doesn't have 'Best viewed 
in IE4 or Netscape 2 at 1024X768'.
Looking at the 'Our Staff' page, though, I wouldn't send kids there, as Mr 
Archer seems to be rather nasty.  He's responsible for racist incidents.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Dan Fish]

On 18/06/11 14:35, Rob Beard wrote:

On 18/06/11 10:14, Sean Miller wrote:

Yikes... !!

"Recognised for ICT"?  Perhaps that was due to being "pioneers" and
setting up their website at a time most others didn't have one... alas,
I think it's rather overdue for an upgrade.

Sean



My god what an awful site.  I gave up after waiting 15 seconds for it 
to load, clicked the stop button and a god awful monstrosity came up.


Animated gifs, comic sans font?  Heck the baby on there should have 
been a dancing baby!


Rob

That is truly dreadful...makes the (thankfully) deceased geocities 
look good ;)

Dan

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Rob Beard]

On 18/06/11 10:14, Sean Miller wrote:

Yikes... !!

"Recognised for ICT"?  Perhaps that was due to being "pioneers" and
setting up their website at a time most others didn't have one... alas,
I think it's rather overdue for an upgrade.

Sean



My god what an awful site.  I gave up after waiting 15 seconds for it to 
load, clicked the stop button and a god awful monstrosity came up.


Animated gifs, comic sans font?  Heck the baby on there should have been 
a dancing baby!


Rob

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

Yikes... !!

"Recognised for ICT"?  Perhaps that was due to being "pioneers" and setting
up their website at a time most others didn't have one... alas, I think it's
rather overdue for an upgrade.

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Alan Lord (News)]

On 17/06/11 14:33, Jon Reynolds wrote:

I've just had a look at my little un's school website and the first
thing that stop you doing anything useful, i.e. like using the
navigation menu, is the fact that for some (cannot imagine) reason, it
is required to install Java on your machine, just so you can use the
navigation links??

WHY would they do this? Is this a serious case for giving someone some
education? The simplest of things - a navmenu, why should I install (and
run) Java just to access a menu to another (probably) static web page?!?

http://www.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk/

(created in FrontPage)


That is an abysmal website - looks like something from the early days of 
the Internet...


The validator doesn't like it much either:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk%2F+&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0

http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/validator?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk%2F&profile=css21&usermedium=all&warning=1&vextwarning=&lang=en

There are quite a few MSO objects scattered around the code.

Bleugy


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[mac]

On 17 Jun 2011, at 14:33, Jon Reynolds  wrote:

> I've just had a look at my little un's school website and the first thing 
> that stop you doing anything useful, i.e. like using the navigation menu, is 
> the fact that for some (cannot imagine) reason, it is required to install 
> Java on your machine, just so you can use the navigation links??...

I see from th top of their page that they're recognised for ICT!

mac




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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Dan Attwood]

> Oh boy what a waste, why did they not use CSS nav buttons; look better, and
> work heaps better
>
>
> because they built it in frontpage
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Mr Mel Corley]

Oh boy what a waste, why did they not use CSS nav buttons; look better, and 
work heaps better

Rgrds
Mel 
Sent using BlackBerry® from Orange

-Original Message-
From: Jon Reynolds 
Sender: ubuntu-uk-boun...@lists.ubuntu.com
Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:33:33 
To: 
Reply-To: maill...@jcrdevelopments.com,
UK Ubuntu Talk 
Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

 I've just had a look at my little un's school website and the first 
 thing that stop you doing anything useful, i.e. like using the 
 navigation menu, is the fact that for some (cannot imagine) reason, it 
 is required to install Java on your machine, just so you can use the 
 navigation links??

 WHY would they do this? Is this a serious case for giving someone some 
 education? The simplest of things - a navmenu, why should I install (and 
 run) Java just to access a menu to another (probably) static web page?!?

 http://www.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk/

 (created in FrontPage)
-- 


 Jon Reynolds (j0nr)
 http://www.jcrdevelopments.com

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Jon Reynolds]

I've just had a look at my little un's school website and the first 
thing that stop you doing anything useful, i.e. like using the 
navigation menu, is the fact that for some (cannot imagine) reason, it 
is required to install Java on your machine, just so you can use the 
navigation links??


WHY would they do this? Is this a serious case for giving someone some 
education? The simplest of things - a navmenu, why should I install (and 
run) Java just to access a menu to another (probably) static web page?!?


http://www.harlingtonlower.beds.sch.uk/

(created in FrontPage)
--


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http://www.jcrdevelopments.com

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Dino T.]

Things like Dreamweaver add a lot of bloated code. Even at government
training at your local library they terach you basic HTML so you can attempt
to fix errors. Good luck getting a fast load and SEO results unless you know
coding and are doing so by yourself. My source? I got my degree doing Web
Design.

An online presence includes giving information about timetables and events.
Good luck getting schools to run something like Blackboard that universities
use. Even the pros who made Blackboard still built a pretty terrible
navigation system for teachers and students to use.

Teachers get timetables etc through fax and email. Having to load up a
website to get that information on your phone, whom not all teachers have
HTC's, Galaxy's etc is terrible productivity.

As for parents and students, on top of letters confirming events etc, a PDF
is good enough for them. Until I read these emails I've never heard a parent
moan about downloading a PDF file. Especially since most browsers load them
in. They get on with it.


*Dino Tassigiannis BA (Hons)*





On 11 June 2011 22:02, Colin Law  wrote:

> On 11 June 2011 21:44, Dino T.  wrote:
>
>> Teachers have enough on their plate teaching 2-3 subjects. So on top of
>> teaching subjects they didnt do a degree, they now by your standards have to
>> learn HTML etc? Give me a break.
>>
>
> Few build web pages in raw html nowadays.  No-one should be so doing.
>
>
>>
>> School websites are only done as a means to advertise and make the school
>> have an online presence.
>
>
> I don't think those are the right reasons for a school to have a website.
> it should be there to make life easier for teachers, students and parents.
> If it is not doing that then it is a waste of effort.
>
>
>> They do not in majority hire web designers to do them. Most are templates
>> altered to school colours or a teacher designed it that volunteered to
>> create the site using Dreamweaver. That's why so many school websites look
>> alike.
>>
>> Once the website is done its much faster to upload PDF's and point a link
>> to it than create a layout for what is said on said PDF. Time is money and
>> considering teachers don't get paid enough and are mistreated as it is, the
>> last thing they need is to be told to become web designers too. They are
>> schools, not the W3C or anyone linked with web accessibility so its not
>> their responcibility to make sure you can view their website ok on your
>> tablet PC or your Android phone.
>>
>
> On the other hand if to have the data accessible on mobile phone is
> sufficiently useful to teachers, students or parents then that is a good
> reason for doing it.
>
> Colin
>
>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Neil Greenwood]

On Jun 11, 2011 2:40 PM, "Will Bickerstaff" 
wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 1:33 PM, J Fernyhough 
wrote:
[snip]
>> aren't going to spend the time reformatting a newsletter in HTML
>> format once they've made it in Word (or even worse, Publisher). Hence,
>> save as a PDF, done.
>
>
> I couldn't agree more. PDF if by far the easiest option for many schools
and probably the most widely viewable format. Whats more interesting  is the
variety of tools schools are using to create the PDFs, our local schools
appear to all be using different tools, Adobe InDesign, Microsoft Publisher,
Serif Page Plus etc. At least they have the sense to convert from these to a
largely universal format. I couldn't imagine or wouldn't expect a school to
be converting a well laid out newsletter produced in dedicated publishing
software which is no doubt primarily designed for print into an equally
appealing HTML representation.
>

We don't get the PDF version, just the .pub file gets emailed! I must speak
to other parents and see how easy they are to view on Windows. I've found a
website that converts them...

It's a matter of training, time and having the right software - our children
brought home a note before half-term apologizing that the Welsh language
school cannot do dinner money statements in anything other than English. The
software only does English.

Cofion/Regards,
Neil.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Colin Law]

On 11 June 2011 21:44, Dino T.  wrote:

> Teachers have enough on their plate teaching 2-3 subjects. So on top of
> teaching subjects they didnt do a degree, they now by your standards have to
> learn HTML etc? Give me a break.
>

Few build web pages in raw html nowadays.  No-one should be so doing.


>
> School websites are only done as a means to advertise and make the school
> have an online presence.


I don't think those are the right reasons for a school to have a website.
it should be there to make life easier for teachers, students and parents.
If it is not doing that then it is a waste of effort.


> They do not in majority hire web designers to do them. Most are templates
> altered to school colours or a teacher designed it that volunteered to
> create the site using Dreamweaver. That's why so many school websites look
> alike.
>
> Once the website is done its much faster to upload PDF's and point a link
> to it than create a layout for what is said on said PDF. Time is money and
> considering teachers don't get paid enough and are mistreated as it is, the
> last thing they need is to be told to become web designers too. They are
> schools, not the W3C or anyone linked with web accessibility so its not
> their responcibility to make sure you can view their website ok on your
> tablet PC or your Android phone.
>

On the other hand if to have the data accessible on mobile phone is
sufficiently useful to teachers, students or parents then that is a good
reason for doing it.

Colin
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Dino T.]

Teachers have enough on their plate teaching 2-3 subjects. So on top of
teaching subjects they didnt do a degree, they now by your standards have to
learn HTML etc? Give me a break.

School websites are only done as a means to advertise and make the school
have an online presence. They do not in majority hire web designers to do
them. Most are templates altered to school colours or a teacher designed it
that volunteered to create the site using Dreamweaver. That's why so many
school websites look alike.

Once the website is done its much faster to upload PDF's and point a link to
it than create a layout for what is said on said PDF. Time is money and
considering teachers don't get paid enough and are mistreated as it is, the
last thing they need is to be told to become web designers too. They are
schools, not the W3C or anyone linked with web accessibility so its not
their responcibility to make sure you can view their website ok on your
tablet PC or your Android phone.


*Dino Tassigiannis BA (Hons)*





On 11 June 2011 11:01, Sean Miller  wrote:

> I think schools have a lot to answer for... they're supposed to be
> educational establishments, yet they seem to fundamentally misunderstand the
> whole concept of the web...
>
> PDFs are fine, for documents that need to be printed consistently (eg.
> posters for school events) but ALL other information (where possible) should
> be in plain HTML, marked up in such a way as to be accessible to those on
> devices from the latest phones to the most basic 800x600 PC...
>
> Why should I have to load up a PDF reader to find term times?  To find
> information on some school trip?   To get the contact information for the
> staff?  Even worse if it's Word or Excel, but PDF is bad enough.
>
> I would like to think that schools "flew the flag" for accessibile web
> content etc. yet it seems that they are well behind the times or could
> it be they're just too lazy?
>
> Sean
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Lewis Cawte]

On 11/06/11 14:51, Tony Scott wrote:
> Surely schools could use something like WordPress?
>
> Disclosure - I organise WordCamp UK ;-)
>  
> --
> Tony Scott
> http://tonyscott.org.uk | http://twitter.com/tonys |
> http://2011.portsmouth.wordcampuk.org | http://lpd.bectu.com |
> http://orangecoconut.com
>
>
> **
>

Joomla seems popular with my schools IT staff, and WordPress is used for
a few things...

http://www.longhill.brighton-hove.sch.uk

I know the "Network Manager" is a member of the Sussex LUG and wrote a
piece of software which he licensed under GPL (as far as I remember)...
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Andres]

This might be a bit out of subject or opening a completly new can of worms but 
can't libreoffice save in html format? It can definatly save in pdf. Without 
installing cutepdf or whatever the schools are using.
 

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plain txt or pdf are prefered. 

- Original message -
> On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 1:33 PM, J Fernyhough
> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I know I slate the state of teaching quite often, but it's not
> > teachers who upload stuff onto websites - it's admin staff. Primary
> > schools, for example, have a school secretary who normally has to do
> > pretty much everything (and quite often they only work part time).
> > Collect dinner money, enter register data, phone parents, send out
> > letters - and one of the other tasks is to post newsletters onto the
> > school website. When you think about school secretaries you don't
> > think about people with technological interest, and they certainly
> > aren't going to spend the time reformatting a newsletter in HTML
> > format once they've made it in Word (or even worse, Publisher). Hence,
> > save as a PDF, done.
> 
> 
> I couldn't agree more. PDF if by far the easiest option for many schools
> and probably the most widely viewable format. Whats more interesting   is
> the variety of tools schools are using to create the PDFs, our local
> schools appear to all be using different tools, Adobe InDesign,
> Microsoft Publisher, Serif Page Plus etc. At least they have the sense
> to convert from these to a largely universal format. I couldn't imagine
> or wouldn't expect a school to be converting a well laid out newsletter
> produced in dedicated publishing software which is no doubt primarily
> designed for print into an equally appealing HTML representation.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[gazz]

I know people with PhDs who won't write HMTL onto an open access
academic site I run. It's not that people are too stupid, it's that
they're too busy and don't do it often enough to be able to remember the
markup between times - and they don't have time/skills to find their own
errors when they make them - and the whole page goes wonky. It's a
frustrating experience for them. I agree, it's a pain in the arse for
*me* downloading pdfs for everything but I do understand why people put
them up.  My convenience is not the only issue at stake ;) 

They should, of course, be given a wyswyg CMS - of which there are
plenty of FOSS examples - WP, for example, has a 'paste Word document'
button. But admin workers or IT teachers usually have little control
over these things. 

School IT teachers and techies are of variable quality but often have
very little training and experience and are also often relatively
isolated from wider techie networks. The obfuscate and obstruct because
that's both the the Microsoft AND public-sector culture they were
'brought up' in and because they have people taking out frustration on
them all day and don't want to open out potential areas of 'trouble' by
changing to systems they don't know. 

The solutions to these problems are rarely pure and never simple. People
need support and encouragement to change habits and the hydra of the
problem usually has multiple heads. 

We do what we can, but we have very little funding and the people we
work with often have even less. It takes patience and baby-steps. 

I do think the change in gov't policy will help enormously - few gov't
employees want to fly in the face of prevailing policy. 

Paula

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Tony Scott]

Surely schools could use something like WordPress?

Disclosure - I organise WordCamp UK ;-)
 
--
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http://orangecoconut.com


>
>From: Will Bickerstaff 
>To: UK Ubuntu Talk 
>Sent: Saturday, 11 June 2011, 14:39
>Subject: Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites
>
>
>
>
>
>On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 1:33 PM, J Fernyhough  wrote:
>
>
>>I know I slate the state of teaching quite often, but it's not
>>teachers who upload stuff onto websites - it's admin staff. Primary
>>schools, for example, have a school secretary who normally has to do
>>pretty much everything (and quite often they only work part time).
>>Collect dinner money, enter register data, phone parents, send out
>>letters - and one of the other tasks is to post newsletters onto the
>>school website. When you think about school secretaries you don't
>>think about people with technological interest, and they certainly
>>aren't going to spend the time reformatting a newsletter in HTML
>>format once they've made it in Word (or even worse, Publisher). Hence,
>>save as a PDF, done.
>
>
>I couldn't agree more. PDF if by far the easiest option for many schools and 
>probably the most widely viewable format. Whats more interesting  is the 
>variety of tools schools are using to create the PDFs, our local schools 
>appear to all be using different tools, Adobe InDesign, Microsoft Publisher, 
>Serif Page Plus etc. At least they have the sense to convert from these to a 
>largely universal format. I couldn't imagine or wouldn't expect a school to be 
>converting a well laid out newsletter produced in dedicated publishing 
>software which is no doubt primarily designed for print into an equally 
>appealing HTML representation.
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>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Will Bickerstaff]

On Sat, Jun 11, 2011 at 1:33 PM, J Fernyhough wrote:

>
> I know I slate the state of teaching quite often, but it's not
> teachers who upload stuff onto websites - it's admin staff. Primary
> schools, for example, have a school secretary who normally has to do
> pretty much everything (and quite often they only work part time).
> Collect dinner money, enter register data, phone parents, send out
> letters - and one of the other tasks is to post newsletters onto the
> school website. When you think about school secretaries you don't
> think about people with technological interest, and they certainly
> aren't going to spend the time reformatting a newsletter in HTML
> format once they've made it in Word (or even worse, Publisher). Hence,
> save as a PDF, done.


I couldn't agree more. PDF if by far the easiest option for many schools and
probably the most widely viewable format. Whats more interesting  is the
variety of tools schools are using to create the PDFs, our local schools
appear to all be using different tools, Adobe InDesign, Microsoft Publisher,
Serif Page Plus etc. At least they have the sense to convert from these to a
largely universal format. I couldn't imagine or wouldn't expect a school to
be converting a well laid out newsletter produced in dedicated publishing
software which is no doubt primarily designed for print into an equally
appealing HTML representation.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Paul Sutton]

On 11/06/11 14:18, J Fernyhough wrote:

On 11 June 2011 14:08, Sean Miller  wrote:

Erm, this is a SCHOOL!

Sparta?


If they've got an even remotely competent IT Teacher

Ha, nice one. See previous discussions. :) Plus, primary schools don't
have IT teachers, they have class teachers (who might have a
specialism, normally Early Years, occasionally in IT).


then he/she could
presumably create an appliocation allowing the admin staff to enter the data
in a generic form and it to then be rendered both in HTML and PDF format.

Surely?!?!

But why? PDF works fine for most people, without factoring in the
effort required and the fact that teachers generally don't have time
to mess around writing applications (even if they could).


And if they put their minds to it Westfield School could ring up Preston
school and say "fancy our app?" and work together... might even get Yeovil
College to chip in...


It's a good idea, but someone needs to be able to do it.


Surely SCHOOL websites should "showcase" the calibre of the teaching - not
send kids out into the world joking about "how naff" their school site is?

Sean


There aren't many who can - and as an OSS community instead of
bitching about it why not make it happen? Approach schools with
applications and expertise and get the websites sorted out? This was
already raised in another discussion about BBC Click - and this is
another service the LOCO could provide.

Jonathon

i agree,   which is one of the things i said earlier, we need to get in 
and try and help,   I work in schools so try and help if /. when I can.


paul

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[J Fernyhough]

On 11 June 2011 14:08, Sean Miller  wrote:
>
> Erm, this is a SCHOOL!

Sparta?

>
> If they've got an even remotely competent IT Teacher

Ha, nice one. See previous discussions. :) Plus, primary schools don't
have IT teachers, they have class teachers (who might have a
specialism, normally Early Years, occasionally in IT).

> then he/she could
> presumably create an appliocation allowing the admin staff to enter the data
> in a generic form and it to then be rendered both in HTML and PDF format.
>
> Surely?!?!

But why? PDF works fine for most people, without factoring in the
effort required and the fact that teachers generally don't have time
to mess around writing applications (even if they could).

>
> And if they put their minds to it Westfield School could ring up Preston
> school and say "fancy our app?" and work together... might even get Yeovil
> College to chip in...
>

It's a good idea, but someone needs to be able to do it.

> Surely SCHOOL websites should "showcase" the calibre of the teaching - not
> send kids out into the world joking about "how naff" their school site is?
>
> Sean
>

There aren't many who can - and as an OSS community instead of
bitching about it why not make it happen? Approach schools with
applications and expertise and get the websites sorted out? This was
already raised in another discussion about BBC Click - and this is
another service the LOCO could provide.

Jonathon

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

On 11 June 2011 13:33, J Fernyhough  wrote:

> Collect dinner money, enter register data, phone parents, send out
> letters - and one of the other tasks is to post newsletters onto the
> school website. When you think about school secretaries you don't
> think about people with technological interest, and they certainly
> aren't going to spend the time reformatting a newsletter in HTML
> format once they've made it in Word (or even worse, Publisher). Hence,
> save as a PDF, done.
>

Erm, this is a SCHOOL!

If they've got an even remotely competent IT Teacher then he/she could
presumably create an appliocation allowing the admin staff to enter the data
in a generic form and it to then be rendered both in HTML and PDF format.

Surely?!?!

And if they put their minds to it Westfield School could ring up Preston
school and say "fancy our app?" and work together... might even get Yeovil
College to chip in...

Surely SCHOOL websites should "showcase" the calibre of the teaching - not
send kids out into the world joking about "how naff" their school site is?

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Mark Fraser]

On Saturday 11 Jun 2011 09:32:31 Mark Fraser wrote:
> Just been to look at the website of my daughter's school -
> https://slp3.somerset.gov.uk/schools/hps/Default.aspx. Is this similar to
> other school websites in the UK where everything is in either Word, Excel
> or PPT format both old and new with the help section giving links to
> viewers?
> 
> I've tried viewing some of the letters in Libreoffice, but the formatting
> seems wrong.

I've tried looking at the websites of other schools around here, and although 
most of them are about the same standard as the Huish one, most downloads are 
in PDF format. I have found a worse one, www.westfieldcommunityschool.co.uk 
who have an Install Microsoft Silverlight button on the front page.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[J Fernyhough]

On 11 June 2011 11:40, Sean Miller  wrote:
>
> No, that is not the point at all... schools would not take on somebody to be
> their secretary who had no concept of what a word processor was, or could
> not use a spreadsheet... they are meant to be educational establishments...
> are you REALLY saying that the quality of staff at our schools could not
> grasp writing something like this :-
>

>
> Possibly but it seems rather pathetic that we're trusting the future of
> our kids to people who don't appear to even be able to grasp something as
> basic as HTML.
>
> Sean
>

I know I slate the state of teaching quite often, but it's not
teachers who upload stuff onto websites - it's admin staff. Primary
schools, for example, have a school secretary who normally has to do
pretty much everything (and quite often they only work part time).
Collect dinner money, enter register data, phone parents, send out
letters - and one of the other tasks is to post newsletters onto the
school website. When you think about school secretaries you don't
think about people with technological interest, and they certainly
aren't going to spend the time reformatting a newsletter in HTML
format once they've made it in Word (or even worse, Publisher). Hence,
save as a PDF, done.

Secondary schools tend to be in a better position as they might employ
staff specifically to look after website and VLE (or as part of IT
support) - but again, they won't be the one writing the newsletter and
they will simply be asked to post it on the website.

Blaming the education system in this instance is, in my opinion,
missing the point; look at the majority of car manufacturer websites
that you can't even view without extra plugins! Having an accessible
website is not the primary function of a school, however desirable it
might be.

Jonathon

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Avi]

Sean Miller wrote:

> It's their CHOICE to "attach a PDF" rather than merely type the
> information into (in many cases) a WYSIWYG editor such as fckeditor
> or tinymce.

Interesting use of 'merely' there. It's hardly surprising that they
choose to attach an already-extant document rather than 'merely' retype
it into some web form.

The problem, really, is that the CMS cannot be pointed at some document
and produce a web page of its own volition, which is just down to
whoever specced the system deciding it'd be better to save the cost of
that and just attach files instead. 

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Paul Sutton]

On 11/06/11 11:40, Sean Miller wrote:
> On 11 June 2011 11:30, Paul Sutton  > wrote:
> 
> Perhaps we need more people in schools to help out who can actually do
> web design and help out without charging hundreds of pounds for the job.
> nProblem is most people out of college may not have these skills, I have
> seen web design courses advertised at my local college, they use
> Dreamweaver,  great so i use that at college go in to schools and they
> can't afford it.  Goes back to teaching skills rather than packages and
> to the test.
> 
> 
> No, that is not the point at all... schools would not take on somebody
> to be their secretary who had no concept of what a word processor was,
> or could not use a spreadsheet... they are meant to be educational
> establishments... are you REALLY saying that the quality of staff at our
> schools could not grasp writing something like this :-
> 
> here is a heading
> The first paragraph
> The second paragraph

Not sure, what I was getting at was that my local college as do many
others teach using Dreamweaver or other expensive tool I think this
removes the need to write html by hand for the most part.

I would rather learn how to do a website plus what is going on under the
hood so to speak, so I understand what the software is doing.

People here have said we should be teaching how to use word processor or
example NOT how to use a specific package that ties people in to a
specific company or file format.  if you teach me HTML then I can use
what ever editor I want, I will probably also understand what is going
on in dreamweaver so when I view the code I actually understand what its
doing,

I am not implying people are not capable of writing html code,


Paul



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Will Bickerstaff]

My sons school is not great. Most things are in PDF, Newsletters,
prospectus, ofsted reports etc, I like the way Mark's school links directly
to the ofsted site for the HTML version of the report rather than the way
ours provides a PDF version. However we have no word excel or ppt files yet.
The calendar and diary is done fairly well. But for the most inaccessible
page of all time have a look at the class catering page. One 4.3MB Jpeg of
the menu without any alt text. Remember this school serves a rural area
where dialup is still common, and broadband can be unreliable and slow (I
routinely come across max speeds of 256kbps, often lower in the surrounding
villages).
https://www.edulink.networcs.net/schools/Swan_Lane/Pages/Default.aspx
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

On 11 June 2011 11:40, Sean Miller  wrote:

> I am SORRY but if this is the state of our education system then I
> despair...
>

And this is largely irrelevant in many cases, because they are using CMS
systems.

It's their CHOICE to "attach a PDF" rather than merely type the information
into (in many cases) a WYSIWYG editor such as fckeditor or tinymce.

The key is that we need to EDUCATE the "educators" that accessibility is
important, and Word/Excel files disempower those without the software to
read and PDF files disempower those with slow connections and/or lack of
plug-ins.  Plain HTML disempowers nobody, because if they can read the site
they can read it.

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

On 11 June 2011 11:30, Paul Sutton  wrote:

> Perhaps we need more people in schools to help out who can actually do
> web design and help out without charging hundreds of pounds for the job.
> nProblem is most people out of college may not have these skills, I have
> seen web design courses advertised at my local college, they use
> Dreamweaver,  great so i use that at college go in to schools and they
> can't afford it.  Goes back to teaching skills rather than packages and
> to the test.
>

No, that is not the point at all... schools would not take on somebody to be
their secretary who had no concept of what a word processor was, or could
not use a spreadsheet... they are meant to be educational establishments...
are you REALLY saying that the quality of staff at our schools could not
grasp writing something like this :-

here is a heading
The first paragraph
The second paragraph

I am SORRY but if this is the state of our education system then I
despair...

Sometimes if you are the one person in the school who knows xyz then you
> get the ict co-ordinator job,  so this comes part of the package,  so
> you just struggle with what ever software is available in the time (or
> lack of time) allocated in between planning, marking, teaching and all
> the other jobs.
>

I could train somebody in writing basic HTML in hours...

Seems to me that schools need help and perhaps we techie people need to
> be more willing to work / volunteer / offer our time / expertise to
> schools.
>

Possibly but it seems rather pathetic that we're trusting the future of
our kids to people who don't appear to even be able to grasp something as
basic as HTML.

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Paul Sutton]

On 11/06/11 11:01, Sean Miller wrote:
> I think schools have a lot to answer for... they're supposed to be
> educational establishments, yet they seem to fundamentally misunderstand
> the whole concept of the web...
> 
> PDFs are fine, for documents that need to be printed consistently (eg.
> posters for school events) but ALL other information (where possible)
> should be in plain HTML, marked up in such a way as to be accessible to
> those on devices from the latest phones to the most basic 800x600 PC...
> 
> Why should I have to load up a PDF reader to find term times?  To find
> information on some school trip?   To get the contact information for
> the staff?  Even worse if it's Word or Excel, but PDF is bad enough.
> 
> I would like to think that schools "flew the flag" for accessibile web
> content etc. yet it seems that they are well behind the times or
> could it be they're just too lazy?
> 
> Sean
> 

Perhaps we need more people in schools to help out who can actually do
web design and help out without charging hundreds of pounds for the job.
nProblem is most people out of college may not have these skills, I have
seen web design courses advertised at my local college, they use
Dreamweaver,  great so i use that at college go in to schools and they
can't afford it.  Goes back to teaching skills rather than packages and
to the test.

Sometimes if you are the one person in the school who knows xyz then you
get the ict co-ordinator job,  so this comes part of the package,  so
you just struggle with what ever software is available in the time (or
lack of time) allocated in between planning, marking, teaching and all
the other jobs.

Seems to me that schools need help and perhaps we techie people need to
be more willing to work / volunteer / offer our time / expertise to
schools.

Paul

-- 

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Sean Miller]

I think schools have a lot to answer for... they're supposed to be
educational establishments, yet they seem to fundamentally misunderstand the
whole concept of the web...

PDFs are fine, for documents that need to be printed consistently (eg.
posters for school events) but ALL other information (where possible) should
be in plain HTML, marked up in such a way as to be accessible to those on
devices from the latest phones to the most basic 800x600 PC...

Why should I have to load up a PDF reader to find term times?  To find
information on some school trip?   To get the contact information for the
staff?  Even worse if it's Word or Excel, but PDF is bad enough.

I would like to think that schools "flew the flag" for accessibile web
content etc. yet it seems that they are well behind the times or could
it be they're just too lazy?

Sean
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Alan Bell]

On 11/06/11 09:32, Mark Fraser wrote:

Just been to look at the website of my daughter's school -
https://slp3.somerset.gov.uk/schools/hps/Default.aspx. Is this similar to
other school websites in the UK where everything is in either Word, Excel or
PPT format both old and new with the help section giving links to viewers?

I've tried viewing some of the letters in Libreoffice, but the formatting
seems wrong.

yeah, but before blaming LibreOffice too much, I think any office suite 
would struggle to display the graphic sourced from  
P:\Office\USER\WP\Graphics\PGQMbronze08.JPG


Alan.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Lewis Cawte]

On 11/06/11 09:40, Alan Pope wrote:
> On 11 June 2011 09:32, Mark Fraser  wrote:
>> Just been to look at the website of my daughter's school -
>> https://slp3.somerset.gov.uk/schools/hps/Default.aspx. Is this similar to
>> other school websites in the UK where everything is in either Word, Excel or
>> PPT format both old and new with the help section giving links to viewers?
> The school my wife works at puts documents online as PDF usually. I've
> yet to see Office files.
>
>> I've tried viewing some of the letters in Libreoffice, but the formatting
>> seems wrong.
>>
> Not very surprising :(
>
> Cheers,
> Al.
>
My school generally puts stuff in PDFs where possible, but they do put a
few spreadsheets (which can be opened in LibreOffice) when it has to...

-- Lewis Cawte

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] School websites

[Alan Pope]

On 11 June 2011 09:32, Mark Fraser  wrote:
> Just been to look at the website of my daughter's school -
> https://slp3.somerset.gov.uk/schools/hps/Default.aspx. Is this similar to
> other school websites in the UK where everything is in either Word, Excel or
> PPT format both old and new with the help section giving links to viewers?
>

The school my wife works at puts documents online as PDF usually. I've
yet to see Office files.

> I've tried viewing some of the letters in Libreoffice, but the formatting
> seems wrong.
>

Not very surprising :(

Cheers,
Al.

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