Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 21:06, Daniel Case wrote: I'm not saying don't evolve, just evolve in a way that most users agree is a good idea Catch 22. Unfortunately the vocal people who do not like something have plenty of placard space and ability to dampen a new flame. Evolution is a risk, a real risk. It happens by (sometimes brutal) death. And the good guys do not necessarily win. Canonical is not perfect, including its community marketing interaction, but it is trying to evolve stuff 'we' know and love and trying to look to a bigger future. Are 'we', 'most' users? This is the thinking of a status quo. If this direction of evolution was easy then why has it not been done before? So, what exactly is a 'good' idea?, and who are 'most' people? -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 21:06, Alan Bell wrote: On 23/03/12 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu wrote: soap box Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake. As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on desktop and Ubuntu server but I don't want to anymore, I don't want to have anything with Ubuntu products. I know the PR spin, it's to make new users' life easy yada yada yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about Ubuntu to anyone anymore. /soap box ok, well as long as you are still using Free Software it is all good. The dodge thing was something Mark Shuttleworth really liked too, but when they did lots of user testing and watched the videos of people being confused by it they dropped the concept. there is more about the decision here https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07835.html When I used unity for the very first time I was irritated and confused by the dodging launcher, and I can easily understand that novices and newcomers will have problems also. And at the time my explicit advice to someone who was going to put it on their Dad's PC was to - at least - stop the autohide launcher. As a more fluent and more confident user now I am probably happy with dodge or autohide, but I do realise this stuff is cutting edge and still developing. And doge launcher is pretty neat. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote: On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote: On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: They spent lots of money testing different behaviours In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in the general sense). That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every minute decision, but it happens. We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory. It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there. Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult? Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:- * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to articulate how we're doing things wrong * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu Unity to appeal Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal is worth it. Frankly if people who are inside our community, hackers as you call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian, Fedora and hundreds of other distros are - that way. Enjoy! Cheers, oooh and who took your dummy away...that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happenswhat is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. I think that is an unfair response. Alan has personally given me unbelievable support over many years for my activities as a volunteer advocate of FLOSS and Ubuntu. What he says is sensible and quite proper, and I am delighted that he has the courage to post on this group. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 22:51, scoundrel50a wrote: .I never once since 11.04 have seen anything about testing, being involved, but I see people on here and have had to ask myself, and there is a tendency to either ignore or react the way you have, and you wonder why people get angry...first I have heard of the testing done in this threadwould have been nice to be involved in that... Mark Shuttleworth has a regular and amazingly detailed blog, he also has IRC sessions for Q A, I attended at least one. The governance of Ubuntu is amazingly open and on record. There is a real lot of stuff open and online, including a lot of videos of interviews and conferences. I should say I think Mark S is a far sighted genius. The one thing that you do not get with Ubuntu or Canonical is bullsh*t and spin. In today's world this can be hard to accept. If information was being looked for then there is a *lot* of raw information available, but no marketing spin. People got angry because they got hurt. There was plenty of explanation available, and very detailed it was too, and some long discussions on lists, some painful. However, afaik Canonical was not contrite about the changes, and I think that a 'Sorry, we really *do* have to go this way' would have helped. The lack of a 'sorry' is something I noticed, and is a bit surprising because it would not cost anything. But I guess that is what happens when there is no 'spin'. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 25/03/2012 10:18, alan c wrote: On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote: On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote: On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: They spent lots of money testing different behaviours In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in the general sense). That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every minute decision, but it happens. We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory. It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there. Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult? Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:- * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to articulate how we're doing things wrong * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu Unity to appeal Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal is worth it. Frankly if people who are inside our community, hackers as you call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian, Fedora and hundreds of other distros are - that way. Enjoy! Cheers, oooh and who took your dummy away...that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happenswhat is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. I think that is an unfair response. Alan has personally given me unbelievable support over many years for my activities as a volunteer advocate of FLOSS and Ubuntu. What he says is sensible and quite proper, and I am delighted that he has the courage to post on this group. I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has shown a different side, one that says, if you dont like it go elsewhere, is that helpful, that is effectively telling people he has no time for them, that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying that people will start going elsewhere..is that what you really want? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 25/03/12 10:48, scoundrel50a wrote: I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has shown a different side, one that says, if you dont like it go elsewhere, is that helpful, that is effectively telling people he has no time for them, that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying that people will start going elsewhere..is that what you really want? as long as people keep using and contributing to Free Software it is all good. If you want Ubuntu to go in a particular direction there is very little stopping you from actually dragging it in the direction you want to go. Really. Participate remotely online in the developer summit that is coming up in May, get involved in the various project mailing lists and IRC channels, attend the meetings of the teams that are making the decisions in these things etc. If some other distribution happens to be going the way you want to go then by all means tag along with that. At the last UDS I think Mark made the point that the opinions of those who contribute to the project are valued a lot more than the opinions of people who just use Ubuntu and have an opinion. Unity is quite extendable in different ways and the documentation on it is improving all the time, you can read all about it here: http://developer.ubuntu.com/ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Unity if you want to do interesting things and influence the direction then you can. If you are just along for the ride, relax and enjoy it. Alan. -- Libertus Solutions http://libertus.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/2012 22:44, Alan Pope wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote: oooh and who took your dummy away... Actually my patience is somewhat thin today because we cremated my best friends Mum. Perhaps that has a bearing on my response, but it puts things in perspective. Life is short. Sorry if it seems that I'm being more harsh than usual. I'm just pretty tired of people bitching about Ubuntu and Unity and doing nothing about it but sending rants to people who can't actually fix the problem. We have developer lists and IRC channels for a reason, use them. that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happens That's pretty insulting to me. Well done. what is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion Opinions are likebodily_feature, everyone has one. and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. Other distros are available. Cheers, - -- Alan Pope I wasnt going to say this, but I will anyway, havent had a very good couple of weeks either, apart from the life threatening disease I have that am being kept alive by toxic drugs that I have to take every day, I can barely walk, because I have chronic condition called plantar fasciitis that causes me pain from my toes to my knees which even with treatment its not going, I also have a condition that is called arthropathy, that also causes me pain, and to top it off this week I found out I have another degenerative condition which is neuropathy, which is the nerves dying in my feet, which is most likely caused from the toxic drugs I have to take every day that keep me alive.so you'll have to excuse me if `I am 'cranky' too...plus the fact to be told go somewhere else, is not an option, its taking me forever to get used to Ubuntu, trying another distro isnt going to workplus, from what I can see, a lot of you are members of other distros too.this distro is enough -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 25/03/12 10:48, scoundrel50a wrote: On 25/03/2012 10:18, alan c wrote: On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote: On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote: On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: They spent lots of money testing different behaviours In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in the general sense). That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every minute decision, but it happens. We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory. It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there. Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult? Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:- * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to articulate how we're doing things wrong * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu Unity to appeal Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal is worth it. Frankly if people who are inside our community, hackers as you call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian, Fedora and hundreds of other distros are - that way. Enjoy! Cheers, oooh and who took your dummy away...that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happenswhat is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. I think that is an unfair response. Alan has personally given me unbelievable support over many years for my activities as a volunteer advocate of FLOSS and Ubuntu. What he says is sensible and quite proper, and I am delighted that he has the courage to post on this group. I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has shown a different side, one that says, if you dont like it go elsewhere, is that helpful, that is effectively telling people he has no time for them, that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying that people will start going elsewhere..is that what you really want? On the contrary. I went up to a counter in a (french) market and asked for a cup of tea. I was treated politely, however they explained they were a restaurant counter only and did not serve drinks, however they were careful to direct me to a nearby counter which was a bar, and served exactly what wanted. the same happened when I went into a shop wantnig a bottle of milk. I got directed to another shop 400 meters away, and did manage to get what I wanted. It is, surely, quite appropriate to be directed to a place to get what you say you want? Anything else would be unhelpful. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 25/03/12 11:08, Alan Bell wrote: little stopping you from actually dragging it in the direction you want to go. Really. Participate remotely online in the developer summit that Oh I perhaps should mention. I had an idea for a minor improvement (I think 'significant' ) in how Launcher icons react. I raised a bug, also contacted the lead developer on the desktop, and before long the bug was accepted. Will be in a very very long queue though, but I can say with certainty that Unity is open to change. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 21:06, Daniel Case wrote: I'm not saying don't evolve, just evolve in a way that most users agree is a good idea, so how do we define what most users want? Perhaps by doing rather a lot of user testing http://davidplanella.wordpress.com/2011/08/02/looking-for-testers-in-london/ https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-April/032988.html http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/11/user-testing-of-unity-reveals-some-surprising-results/ this does of course lead to certain problems when they don't give the users time to sober up first https://bugs.launchpad.net/ayatana-design/+bug/764905 but in the main it seems a reasonable approach. I thought that was the aim of Linux? not really, Linux is just the kernel. Who's driving the development course here? The users or canonical? the contributors to the project, which is mostly but not exclusively Canonical. Why would you think that the users drive the development course? -- Libertus Solutions http://libertus.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 22:23, Daniel Case wrote: I've been in the Ubuntu community for 5 years already and don't plan on leaving any time soon, but I think there needs to be some representation of the hacker culture that Ubuntu has built up over the years so that we can find the middle ground, it seems to me as though Canonical wants to believe that we are not here! I think that there has been emotional hurt and upset which may have been difficult but not impossible to avoid. I trust that ubuntu will weather this with time, but I would have liked to have seen a situation when a very senior Canonical marketing resource would have handled some of the inevitable community pain a bit more elegantly. Although it would be somewhat unprecedented in a normal business environment. But like a racing car, the direction can be changed in an instant. I trust Ubuntu will win! -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 24/03/12 01:38, Liam Proven wrote: However, I do think that Unity in general is not /nearly/ as customisable as Linux users tend to be used to. I would expect more customisable options as time goes on. I have read a statement which said that it was not policy to lack customise options, but first things first. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 25/03/12 11:11, scoundrel50a wrote: its taking me forever to get used to Ubuntu, trying another distro isnt going to workplus, from what I can see, a lot of you are members of other distros too.this distro is enough (I do wish you well with the health problems) I find that Lubuntu is pretty comfortable, and IIRC it is possible to install a ppa offering gnome desktop, or at least it gave pretty familiar menus etc. All of these and maybe more, can be installed as desktop sessions, into Ubuntu, and chosen at logon. -- alan cocks -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
Liam Proven wrote: Unity is getting quite mature now. None of what I'm proposing is new code - this is all either restoring features that were one present, or things that have been accomplished by hacks, config tweaks and so on. It's all doable. But it's not getting any more configurable - in fact, options are /disappearing./ This is a very serious error of judgement, I think. I do maintain that Gnome3 is what happened when the Gnome developers decided that Gnome 2 was too configurable by half, which wasn't long after everyone else decided it was nicely customisable. In more seriousness, I think Unity's likely to go down the route of Gnome 3, where the customisability and features that people want and expect are provided by extensions and plugins[0] rather than the core product itself. That frees up the Unity developers to focus completely on the functionality that Canonical regard as important and means that they don't need to support other people's daft ideas, and gets the DE back towards the modular approach that's so invaluable for the rest of the OS. This does, of course, completely break the assumption that every Unity/Gnome3 install is roughly the same (which, apparently, is one of the plus sides of making it hard to customise), but I suspect that in environments where that's desirable it's trivial to simply prevent the installation of these extensions to force people to maintain a normal UI. -- Avi [0] I have no idea about Unity's architecture here, though I've heard mention of plugins and add-ons for it. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 25/03/12 10:48, scoundrel50a wrote: I am glad that he has been helpful to you, but this thread has shown a different side, one that says, if you dont like it go elsewhere, is that helpful, that is effectively telling people he has no time for them, that isnt consistent.if he keeps saying that people will start going elsewhere..is that what you really want? It's less if you dont like it go elsewhere and more if all you're going to do is bitch and not actually do anything constructive then we probably won't mourn your disappearance. We already get an awful lot of feedback about Unity, Ubuntu and all the bits and pieces around it. I'm not saying we don't need more feedback, just that the feedback needs to be targeted to the right place, at the right time and in the right language. For example. A mail to the Ubuntu-UK mailing list saying Unity sucks, I'm switching to Mint isn't even remotely useful to anyone at all. A mail to the Unity-design list saying I've noticed that the icons react in a way that doesn't match the design or I've installed Ubuntu for a number of users and they've all commented on how hard it is to access their devices, I suggest the following changes perhaps with a picture to explain how it can be improved, is likely to be more useful. Making Ubuntu better requires work on all sides, firing hate messages into the sky doesn't work at all. Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbxcgAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4we0QH/A6Lsp2hPtLTg+yiPy32UnjV dob6xu+F1W3AZXVXqv+IF3GVOT5dWZMJiLsgsQ3YcyYqw5CVxUbUnDgLkv8r0s29 KFFp4tI5bW25G0pHccDAh3iMi0vtpvwNcPG3UYZw1vynCMEEC0kolk6goTiurO8J UiN5Y2EXxI4/1B6nlSMNxo6nCP91vRM1cW04RnNK5grPLi5P2CwRCB+zoi4DqzJ5 ycl3FP/VWMBdnu0Y1jhLDKBlwwZ4IvfA76ysLmqJRUfbfKjWT/s3fDfI5X6gp4AA ri/1bMr90ii67hOPcuXJBF2oQU0qczIKrp8D/oi3YXvjzTpGOZLsulnszvg+4z4= =l1BZ -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
Well, you can volunteer to support it, and put the option back in. Or pay someone to do it if you don't have the skills yourself. That's the joy of free software. However, Canonical decided they weren't going to keep paying to support it. That's their right too. Neil. P.S. Sorry for the brevity, this is typed on my phone. On Mar 23, 2012 10:45 PM, John Oliver jp.oli...@ntlworld.com wrote: Personally, I think that the code should continue to be maintained. The argument being put forth sounds to me like It is not the default, therefore no-one can have it. This argument does not work - look at Windows - the taskbar has an autohide option. Look at OS X; the much gone-on-about full screen mode (a.k.a. hide the dock) has just been added. -- Kind Regards, John Oliver jp.oli...@ntlworld.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
I came late to Computing (in my late thirties as a mature student at University, I'm 56 now). I've been mucking about with Linux since around 1998 when it took me about four days to get a Red Hat release partially working on a laptop. I've been looking with interest at the posts on here for a number of years and learned an awful amount about gnu-linux in general and Ubuntu in particular from you wonderful techies without ever posting (I haven't yet /not/ found an answer to a question already posted by someone else). I thought I might just put my two penn'orth in on this particular subject where there seems to be such strong feelings about the direction things are going. For me the debate has never been about how this looks, or whether that is the best distro (my 83 year old mother uses Xubuntu, though she doesn't realise it, she just knows what she needs to press to get the internet or email). Nor does it seem to be the major factor to the myriad of people that I try to introduce to Ubuntu on a daily basis. For those that /do /show//interest after overcoming their innate distrust of 'something for nothing', it is the revelation that there is a massive community of people 'out there' willing to give time, expertise and money to something they passionately believe in and that in a world seemingly run by a bunch of self interested grifters, there are alternative ways of doing things. That collaboration and co-operation can actually produce something better than naked competition and greed (Windows 8?, what a pointless rip off). For those getting worked up about Launchers and and such like, reminds me of those ancient philosophers who spent their time worrying about how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. The fact is, there is an Ubuntu distribution for pretty much everybody (and I always try to make a point of showing these alternatives once someone has shown a willingness to try Ubuntu). People tend to be impressed by the novelty that they have a choice. Almost always, the reaction is astonishment that something can be so good without costing anything 'so there must be a catch'. I haven't tried 12.04 yet and when I do, I daresay here will be things that I don't like at first. Personally I'm comfortable with that. There were things I didn't like about that version of Red Hat all those years ago. The difficulty appears to me to be the same now as it was then; the restrictive practices of proprietry software and hardware vendors and the massive negative propaganda of the big corporations aided by ignorance in government. So I would say to everyone involved 'keep calm and carry on!' The times are changing. Chris On 23/03/12 22:44, Alan Pope wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote: oooh and who took your dummy away... Actually my patience is somewhat thin today because we cremated my best friends Mum. Perhaps that has a bearing on my response, but it puts things in perspective. Life is short. Sorry if it seems that I'm being more harsh than usual. I'm just pretty tired of people bitching about Ubuntu and Unity and doing nothing about it but sending rants to people who can't actually fix the problem. We have developer lists and IRC channels for a reason, use them. that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happens That's pretty insulting to me. Well done. what is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion Opinions are likebodily_feature, everyone has one. and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. Other distros are available. Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla -http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbPzQAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wnc8H/17ExoQzzrEHAR8oEPSIZFQS AI+BU+ps1t+3LbLTUJMq6UqpDfvl4RRmeQKLPoUk/Fo3BqE+JH4cLVdzenYbKODN AkxCTEvmgHcwQ8zpf+YH5KsLo+gp8S2fFzpGhRFf94NzOko6cM/Hr78IoNa9YrRd kEv5hOEaEbMc8oyCbQPnaCKvG5m48wtz6xE4y2LxoL1PRA8tecmzSnnLMTc/ImL/ vxX1xINnSGoVx3oJj8FMBHpDg8YTEJzS97WOoWPcQrxMgy5v4PF+ed2kRpm+AIHZ M4Tv2vLfKF2Hk/uX+UxeDqcYbXoW3iSqhW3CfMahV3j1ep0igosKk89Zs5bS+5k= =vuMg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 24/03/12 01:38, Liam Proven wrote: However, I do think that Unity in general is not /nearly/ as customisable as Linux users tend to be used to. At the moment, yes. When Unity first came out I was disappointed to discover that it was not based on simple text conf files as is usual in gnu/linux. Things are moving though. http://mhall119.com/2012/01/simplified-unity-lens-development-with-singlet/ shows use of a python class library to take much of the pain out of lens scripting. It won't be long before somebody comes up with a gui ide that builds a lens using drag-n-drop or similar. It's the kind of thing I'd have tackled myself when I was younger. I'm prepared to wait - Unity is perfectly usable as is - and that doesn't seem to be the case with Windows 8 according to all the reports. Regards,Barry. -- Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team. http://ubuntuadverts.org/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 24/03/12 11:58, Barry Drake wrote: On 24/03/12 01:38, Liam Proven wrote: However, I do think that Unity in general is not /nearly/ as customisable as Linux users tend to be used to. At the moment, yes. When Unity first came out I was disappointed to discover that it was not based on simple text conf files as is usual in gnu/linux. Things are moving though. http://mhall119.com/2012/01/simplified-unity-lens-development-with-singlet/ shows use of a python class library to take much of the pain out of lens scripting. It won't be long before somebody comes up with a gui ide that builds a lens using drag-n-drop or similar. It's the kind of thing I'd have tackled myself when I was younger. I'm prepared to wait - Unity is perfectly usable as is - and that doesn't seem to be the case with Windows 8 according to all the reports. Regards, Barry. Hi, Having come relatively late to Ubuntu (8.10) I have become used to the customizeabilty of GNOME, and I don't want slag off many peoples hard work, but Unity as it stands is not for me (everything must change, and hopefully get better) but I do feel that it is going down the Windows route of 'this is how it is like it or lump it! To me this is not the LINUX way. A friend of mine has just discovered 'Ultimate OS' a *buntu fork with a choice of de's built in, this looks very good and if choice is continued to be taken away from me then I will have will have to explore alternate options myself! This is not an easy decision for me as I have been shouting the virtues of Ubuntu from the metaphorical hilltops since I first stumbled across it, but if pushed will also shout about how let down I feel by the dev's. It is about personal choice but Unity is not mine! Xubuntu here I come! Pete -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 24 March 2012 19:41, Pete Smout psmo...@live.com wrote: It is about personal choice but Unity is not mine! Xubuntu here I come! That's how I feel too. Do Canonical take any notes of these lists? Sean -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 24/03/12 20:20, Sean Miller wrote: On 24 March 2012 19:41, Pete Smout psmo...@live.com wrote: It is about personal choice but Unity is not mine! Xubuntu here I come! That's how I feel too. Do Canonical take any notes of these lists? Plenty of Canonical employees and Ubuntu community members are on this list, although not (AIUI) the ones that can make decisions about these things. If you have any useful feedback I would _strongly_ recommend using the correct mailing list for the job. If you want to provide feedback and suggestions for improvements to Unity then the 'Unity Design' list is the best place to go. https://launchpad.net/~unity-design Complaining in the wrong place is shouting into the void. Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbi/dAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wAagIAMLWgDs/hN7lfyCo0DTjN6Kd a0EwRxbjzSC5k/xD8qQDu7//vj9Nm4eyjAcpLsnvdNt9OmhYQMpl+4u0sOdlRwQ9 IJ4kX306fI8RVNrGCRW95ZJ1nyU2dQ8J0LpIl48GCleLS1Y63qRS3ztVb2j4c2dt i6iNLXBaUTyJHvx/zHE/DAtZjUF8vePEqlnDWt++kqzaH9gEqlDKGd8P4s3guBxC xjs1iH8D38JA62yHqiAxb7ujnriCwZDcS1jiCWbEcZK+amGf5PBKnVW/JvOmnD+T cgQd3CU/0DPSFhEanoYsqXS4dWynw2jIsi5y1TTY9GF27d6cePg6VS3O5BAyezk= =6o45 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
Neil Greenwood wrote: Well, you can volunteer to support it, and put the option back in. Or pay someone to do it if you don't have the skills yourself. That's the joy of free software. However, Canonical decided they weren't going to keep paying to support it. That's their right too. I don't think anyone's questioned that. In fact your the first here (as far as I can see) to mention whether it's some right of Canonical's or not to do this. This, I think, is the problem with a lot of responses to these messages. They're not straight-up complaints so much as expressions of disappointment in the main. Nobody's trying to claim that Canonicalis somehow obliged to not change the DE or not make the backgrounds of terminals purple[0], or that users are somehow tied to using Ubuntu (or, even, that Ubuntu users are tied to Unity)[1] - they're just rather disappointed that Ubuntu appears to be no longer interested in what it used to be interested in, and specifically the bits of its past interest that an apparently vocal part of the userbase particularly liked it for. Perhaps the reasons are sound; I can't honestly claim to know what they are since the only response anybody seems to get to recent questioning of Unity's behaviour is try Fedora. To simply say that these users can use something else is rather missing the point; in the main they're the user group who are already aware of other distros (even if, somehow, the knowledge of other DEs for Ubuntu has escaped the majority of them), but they're still perfectly entitled to be disappointed in the apparent large shift in direction. I *want* to use and like and support Ubuntu (and even Unity) for reasons that I'm having trouble remembering, but that doesn't mean I actually *do*. Anyway, I decided to stop getting into these discussions - I only meant to take issue with your precise argument rather than actually pick a side here. -- Avi [0] I still check the VGA lead every time I log into a Ubuntu server :) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
It's policy. The decision was made after usability testing, where users got confused when first maximising a window. where's the launcher gone now? And because the option was being removed, the decision was also made to remove the code to reduce the maintenance requirements. Neil. P.S. Sorry for the brevity and top-posting, this is typed on my phone. On Mar 23, 2012 6:50 PM, Barry Drake ubuntu-advertis...@gmx.com wrote: Hi there ... I used to like the way that the launcher used to slide away when there was a window over it and re-appear when there wasn't. Now in Precise, we seem only to be able to have autohide or permanently in place. The Compiz configurator and MyUnity both seem to suggest that I can configure settings that do the slide: they don't seem to do that. Anyone here know whether this is current policy on Unity or a bug? Regards,Barry. -- Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team. http://ubuntuadverts.org/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 19:54, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: It's policy. The decision was made after usability testing, where users got confused when first maximising a window. where's the launcher gone now? And because the option was being removed, the decision was also made to remove the code to reduce the maintenance requirements. soap box Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake. As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on desktop and Ubuntu server but I don't want to anymore, I don't want to have anything with Ubuntu products. I know the PR spin, it's to make new users' life easy yada yada yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about Ubuntu to anyone anymore. /soap box -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu wrote: soap box Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake. As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on desktop and Ubuntu server but I don't want to anymore, I don't want to have anything with Ubuntu products. I know the PR spin, it's to make new users' life easy yada yada yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about Ubuntu to anyone anymore. /soap box ok, well as long as you are still using Free Software it is all good. The dodge thing was something Mark Shuttleworth really liked too, but when they did lots of user testing and watched the videos of people being confused by it they dropped the concept. there is more about the decision here https://lists.launchpad.net/unity-design/msg07835.html Alan -- Libertus Solutions http://libertus.co.uk -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu ha...@koseoglu.org wrote: But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about Ubuntu to anyone anymore. I discovered it myself, but I agree that the launcher should not permanently be there. This drove me up the wall while I was testing it, almost 10% of my screen is unusable the majority of the time (how will that work on 9 netbooks?) I'm still on 10.04 which I really love as a system, my menu, icons, notifications etc are where I expect them to be, it's fast and reliable and I know when, for example, I have two terminal windows open, and at a glance what I have on each virtual desktop. My menus are tucked away until I need them. I started with 7.04 and used to be on the cutting edge right up until 10.04, I installed 10.10 (when unity first hit) and hated the instability of the system. Now I test each release in a virtual machine from time to time (I tested the beta for 12.04 a few days ago) I'm not saying don't evolve, just evolve in a way that most users agree is a good idea, I thought that was the aim of Linux? Who's driving the development course here? The users or canonical? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 21:06, Daniel Case danielcas...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 March 2012 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu ha...@koseoglu.org wrote: But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about Ubuntu to anyone anymore. I discovered it myself, but I agree that the launcher should not permanently be there. This drove me up the wall while I was testing it, almost 10% of my screen is unusable the majority of the time (how will that work on 9 netbooks?) It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide it. It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the screen (on 12.04) Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 21:11, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide it. It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the screen (on 12.04) I noticed this, however it often comes out when I go for the close button on a window. The original dodge function was a perfect fit, is there no way we can have this reinstated along with the other options as well? That way it keeps everyone happy -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
I know some find it a bit annoying, but Canonical didn't just decide this. They spent lots of money testing different behaviours with users with a range of experience of computers. I believe all the users tested had little experience of Linux. Mark Shuttleworth even had to say that the results were the opposite of what he first thought before the testing. Neil. P.S. Sorry for the brevity, this is typed on my phone. On Mar 23, 2012 8:17 PM, Hakan Koseoglu ha...@koseoglu.org wrote: On 23 March 2012 19:54, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: It's policy. The decision was made after usability testing, where users got confused when first maximising a window. where's the launcher gone now? And because the option was being removed, the decision was also made to remove the code to reduce the maintenance requirements. soap box Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake. As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on desktop and Ubuntu server but I don't want to anymore, I don't want to have anything with Ubuntu products. I know the PR spin, it's to make new users' life easy yada yada yada. But the new users don't discover Linux all by themselves, in most cases someone shows them and I don't want to show and talk about Ubuntu to anyone anymore. /soap box -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 21:16, Daniel Case danielcas...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:11, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide it. It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the screen (on 12.04) I noticed this, however it often comes out when I go for the close button on a window. The original dodge function was a perfect fit, is there no way we can have this reinstated along with the other options as well? That way it keeps everyone happy With unity-2d on 12.04 it does not slide out if you hit the side in the top panel itself (by the close button for maximised windows). I don't know about unity-3d but I guess it should be the same there. Also I think there will be a sensitivity setting for how quickly it appears. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 21:25, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:16, Daniel Case danielcas...@gmail.com wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:11, Colin Law clan...@googlemail.com wrote: It doesn't have to be there all the time, there is an option to hide it. It then appears when the mouse is pushed against the edge of the screen (on 12.04) I noticed this, however it often comes out when I go for the close button on a window. The original dodge function was a perfect fit, is there no way we can have this reinstated along with the other options as well? That way it keeps everyone happy With unity-2d on 12.04 it does not slide out if you hit the side in the top panel itself (by the close button for maximised windows). I don't know about unity-3d but I guess it should be the same there. Also I think there will be a sensitivity setting for how quickly it appears. And I have just done an update and can now specify which monitor I want the launcher on (or all). Excellent. Colin -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: They spent lots of money testing different behaviours In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in the general sense). The reason Ubuntu grew was because the hackers advocated it, gave it to users to try when Windows broke or when they complained and could reasonably say this is better. It's a hacker culture, reaching out to the wider world and telling them there is something different, something better that you can try, and taught them how to use it. Now hackers are good with computers, they know what they are doing (in an ideal world) I gave 10.04 to someone who originally had Windows 7, he didn't know much about computers, you should have seen his face when he realized he could have all his applications at the bottom in an easy to reach fashion again and we talked about how simplicity and design go hand in hand and conquer all others. The more complex it is to navigate through to get to what you want to do, the more of a pain in the ass it becomes. The OS should be seamless, it should keep out of the way when it isn't needed, and allow users to find precisely what they want quickly when it is needed, that to me, is a perfect OS. The direction we are all heading is away from simplicity. Simplicity is key to hackers, Unity interferes with that, it makes you more hands on with the OS. This perhaps makes it marginally easier for the new user, but it makes life more difficult for the hacker. Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult? -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: They spent lots of money testing different behaviours In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in the general sense). That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every minute decision, but it happens. We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory. It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there. Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult? Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:- * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to articulate how we're doing things wrong * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu Unity to appeal Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal is worth it. Frankly if people who are inside our community, hackers as you call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian, Fedora and hundreds of other distros are - that way. Enjoy! Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbPNTAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wChEH/RM19onR03LMACgW+MmUJgnf 339V9dYOGw/1j/Lsn3vu/BBfIgAZIZAgLLZ+L1aLka1MbJ+yf9HDZfrvdaz3IkaR Nbq74GlBOi3PXBGjrFmJdtRtbKuNetXEVkNlCT7W4pJiX81HMldfJb12m2fuFghC OszzWub42SJT65DH0psESmyTdtgKuY+nd4Fc3s5+ZKy8SfG6qFlggPHlcWWJKXmU DH7aa2hav2UoSNcrweXxz+uTHMfuXjBXpmLIXGD9MrHXrpnZlSw71ZWBMW/m9wWe iSGsmCjZKBgKp10CB2IqwoacCzgNtyiVJnFPYtuOamuD/J7vPC8+Dr3djFIHW78= =NtdC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/2012 22:04, Alan Pope wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 21:45, Daniel Case wrote: On 23 March 2012 21:21, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: They spent lots of money testing different behaviours In my opinion, this is where the problem lies. The main people Linux attracts, no matter which way you look at it, are hackers (in the general sense). That's exactly the problem we're trying to solve. Not asking the target audience, but only asking hackers would be arrogant and foolhardy. That's why we don't do that. We do listen to feedback, more than you'd imagine, and decisions taken about design (for example) are directly affected by user feedback. That doesn't happen for every minute decision, but it happens. We're also making it easier to buy computers with Ubuntu pre-installed by talking to hardware vendors, to get it shipped from the factory. It's hard work and takes a long time to do but we're getting there. Which brings me back to my first point, who's going to advocate Ubuntu if it annoys the hacker and makes life more difficult? Those of us who do like it, do use it and believe it is the right path for Ubuntu to take. If you don't then you have a number of options:- * Install a different desktop environment on your Ubuntu system * Join the discussion on the various Ubuntu development lists to articulate how we're doing things wrong * Test and file bugs when things don't work correctly * Provide patches or programs to help Ubuntu Unity to appeal Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal is worth it. Frankly if people who are inside our community, hackers as you call them aren't willing to get stuck in then Linux Mint, Debian, Fedora and hundreds of other distros are - that way. Enjoy! Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbPNTAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wChEH/RM19onR03LMACgW+MmUJgnf 339V9dYOGw/1j/Lsn3vu/BBfIgAZIZAgLLZ+L1aLka1MbJ+yf9HDZfrvdaz3IkaR Nbq74GlBOi3PXBGjrFmJdtRtbKuNetXEVkNlCT7W4pJiX81HMldfJb12m2fuFghC OszzWub42SJT65DH0psESmyTdtgKuY+nd4Fc3s5+ZKy8SfG6qFlggPHlcWWJKXmU DH7aa2hav2UoSNcrweXxz+uTHMfuXjBXpmLIXGD9MrHXrpnZlSw71ZWBMW/m9wWe iSGsmCjZKBgKp10CB2IqwoacCzgNtyiVJnFPYtuOamuD/J7vPC8+Dr3djFIHW78= =NtdC -END PGP SIGNATURE- oooh and who took your dummy away...that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happenswhat is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
Hi Alan, I appreciate what the design teams are trying to do and I appreciate that it is very difficult (or even impossible -as I have never seen it done effectively) to provide the same operating system that works for both new users and hackers alike. New users like the OS to guide them through the process, whereas hackers want it to get out of their way so they can be more productive. Two very different approaches, you either confuse one or annoy the other and it's very difficult to reach that middle ground. I personally would have even gone for having two separate systems under the Ubuntu name to cater to both. I've been in the Ubuntu community for 5 years already and don't plan on leaving any time soon, but I think there needs to be some representation of the hacker culture that Ubuntu has built up over the years so that we can find the middle ground, it seems to me as though Canonical wants to believe that we are not here! I personally like the interactions I've had with Unity. I can see why it would be appealing to a user who just wants to go on Facebook or write some documents, but I can also see the reason that many of us folk who have been here for a long time don't like it. I've seen lots of criticism of little parts and even some general big rants, I'm trying to come at this in a more level headed way to work with you on solving the bigger problem, trying to please both sets of users and everyone in between. So I'm not saying Unity is fundamentally broken, it's great for one set of users, but I think canonical needs to accommodate us with more customization options and hacks so that we can all move forward. Daniel -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/12 22:04, Alan Pope wrote: Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal is worth it. Alan - well said! Folk who really want to see progress will go along with what Ubuntu is doing right now. Sure, it isn't perfect, but it is amazing. Anyone who still has doubt, start testing Windows 8 . 'shoot' and 'foot' spring to mind. Regards,Barry. -- Barry Drake is a member of the the Ubuntu Advertising team. http://ubuntuadverts.org/ -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 22:34, Barry Drake ubuntu-advertis...@gmx.com wrote: Anyone who still has doubt, start testing Windows 8 . 'shoot' and 'foot' spring to mind. That's certainly true. But I can't help feeling that everything is heading towards the post-PC era too early. For example, I can see Unity working perfectly on a touch screen. I genuinely care about the Ubuntu community as a whole, it feels like home since I've been here and always welcomed for almost 5 years, I know that ranting, shouting and saying I'm going to leave won't help (and I don't think I could bring myself to do so anyway) but I was hoping that highlighting the issues as I see them may help more. PS. Sorry for taking over your email thread Barry... :) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/2012 22:34, Barry Drake wrote: On 23/03/12 22:04, Alan Pope wrote: Personally I am in this for the long haul. Each 6 monthly release is fantastic, but I'm thinking years away from now, and I'm happy to persevere through the rough times because I think the long term goal is worth it. Alan - well said! Folk who really want to see progress will go along with what Ubuntu is doing right now. Sure, it isn't perfect, but it is amazing. Anyone who still has doubt, start testing Windows 8 . 'shoot' and 'foot' spring to mind. Regards, Barry. Windows 8 is like running the phone version, which is about apps...which is the almost the same as running google chrome OS which I have had a go at both, if people have wondows phones its just a continuation/upgrade, from what I have been playing withit takes a bit of getting used to as far as using other windows programs, but its not that confusing. -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote: oooh and who took your dummy away... Actually my patience is somewhat thin today because we cremated my best friends Mum. Perhaps that has a bearing on my response, but it puts things in perspective. Life is short. Sorry if it seems that I'm being more harsh than usual. I'm just pretty tired of people bitching about Ubuntu and Unity and doing nothing about it but sending rants to people who can't actually fix the problem. We have developer lists and IRC channels for a reason, use them. that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happens That's pretty insulting to me. Well done. what is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion Opinions are like bodily_feature, everyone has one. and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. Other distros are available. Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbPzQAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wnc8H/17ExoQzzrEHAR8oEPSIZFQS AI+BU+ps1t+3LbLTUJMq6UqpDfvl4RRmeQKLPoUk/Fo3BqE+JH4cLVdzenYbKODN AkxCTEvmgHcwQ8zpf+YH5KsLo+gp8S2fFzpGhRFf94NzOko6cM/Hr78IoNa9YrRd kEv5hOEaEbMc8oyCbQPnaCKvG5m48wtz6xE4y2LxoL1PRA8tecmzSnnLMTc/ImL/ vxX1xINnSGoVx3oJj8FMBHpDg8YTEJzS97WOoWPcQrxMgy5v4PF+ed2kRpm+AIHZ M4Tv2vLfKF2Hk/uX+UxeDqcYbXoW3iSqhW3CfMahV3j1ep0igosKk89Zs5bS+5k= =vuMg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
Personally, I think that the code should continue to be maintained. The argument being put forth sounds to me like It is not the default, therefore no-one can have it. This argument does not work - look at Windows - the taskbar has an autohide option. Look at OS X; the much gone-on-about full screen mode (a.k.a. hide the dock) has just been added. -- Kind Regards, *John Oliver* jp.oli...@ntlworld.com -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 22:23, Daniel Case wrote: New users like the OS to guide them through the process, whereas hackers want it to get out of their way so they can be more productive. Two very different approaches, you either confuse one or annoy the other and it's very difficult to reach that middle ground. I personally would have even gone for having two separate systems under the Ubuntu name to cater to both. This is a popular misconception. There's about 500 people who work for Canonical, most (nearly all) of which use Ubuntu all day every day. They range from events management, HR, finance to developers, designers, project managers, product managers, documentation experts and blue sky thinkers. We cover a surprising number of use cases in one company. The developers are unsurprisingly very technical users and there are also many non-technical users. To say we don't cater to both is not true in my opinion. Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbP5ZAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wrGIIAJZ1nc/CnpQZdYPi/uc2THIA RiA8gY7o6/T+N0Pxnckd953a4Lt2FssoyDiKG8+eQdLjRJBo6jsZvly8yawWJoK/ FNwlBLWRQLQVms7KNmlxR+r8iFxmUcRf62KHEwtZQHxypWLBlsMaGynRO5d9G0oU TIcAsRBwrsKgZqotqkrfhkiD6JKiHDfsV5ttNBXUFj2xOEJ0AZ7p24H3bkFNG/R+ GUJhnAawWUoDw5zreBsUrTNKabsMGaxwi1mJIkTXF2+k7G8SfD58jdFmjURKF9Fk MN50mBBEiQvDhg4g+Xduui8tkPalNLRxvoToS0T9EhFZtDsgT8+PTbrz3JvJ/kA= =4gr8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23/03/2012 22:44, Alan Pope wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 22:11, scoundrel50a wrote: oooh and who took your dummy away... Actually my patience is somewhat thin today because we cremated my best friends Mum. Perhaps that has a bearing on my response, but it puts things in perspective. Life is short. Sorry if it seems that I'm being more harsh than usual. I'm just pretty tired of people bitching about Ubuntu and Unity and doing nothing about it but sending rants to people who can't actually fix the problem. We have developer lists and IRC channels for a reason, use them. that was my reaction when I read that...but the thing is, you work for Canonical, so your going to say that, whatever happens That's pretty insulting to me. Well done. It wasnt meant to be insulting, and I am sorry you took it that way.I never once since 11.04 have seen anything about testing, being involved, but I see people on here and have had to ask myself, and there is a tendency to either ignore or react the way you have, and you wonder why people get angry...first I have heard of the testing done in this threadwould have been nice to be involved in that... what is frustrating is people on here are giving an opinion Opinions are likebodily_feature, everyone has one. and its being thrown aside is if it doesnt matter because you have all this research into what people like, but people are here telling you different, that has been going on since 11.04 people have said they dont like it..and its not getting better its getting worse. Other distros are available. and there you go again.. Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbPzQAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wnc8H/17ExoQzzrEHAR8oEPSIZFQS AI+BU+ps1t+3LbLTUJMq6UqpDfvl4RRmeQKLPoUk/Fo3BqE+JH4cLVdzenYbKODN AkxCTEvmgHcwQ8zpf+YH5KsLo+gp8S2fFzpGhRFf94NzOko6cM/Hr78IoNa9YrRd kEv5hOEaEbMc8oyCbQPnaCKvG5m48wtz6xE4y2LxoL1PRA8tecmzSnnLMTc/ImL/ vxX1xINnSGoVx3oJj8FMBHpDg8YTEJzS97WOoWPcQrxMgy5v4PF+ed2kRpm+AIHZ M4Tv2vLfKF2Hk/uX+UxeDqcYbXoW3iSqhW3CfMahV3j1ep0igosKk89Zs5bS+5k= =vuMg -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 22:41, Daniel Case wrote: On 23 March 2012 22:34, Barry Drake ubuntu-advertis...@gmx.com wrote: Anyone who still has doubt, start testing Windows 8 . 'shoot' and 'foot' spring to mind. That's certainly true. But I can't help feeling that everything is heading towards the post-PC era too early. For example, I can see Unity working perfectly on a touch screen. Nah, right now Unity is rubbish on a touch screen :D It's also not either/or. Ubuntu is a desktop distro. In the future there may be TV/Tablet/Phone/Fridge/Toaster versions, but right now it's on desktops/laptops/servers/clouds. That's where our core competency lies. I genuinely care about the Ubuntu community as a whole, it feels like home since I've been here and always welcomed for almost 5 years, I know that ranting, shouting and saying I'm going to leave won't help (and I don't think I could bring myself to do so anyway) but I was hoping that highlighting the issues as I see them may help more. They do help, if brought up in the right way, in the right place. :) Cheers, - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJPbP8WAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4whO4H/2hshwgNiVmLgy5PWXECDJun dOhso0znLVL4OKITJOFNg1m0JWjsDPTDcrDfa0cOd796qgL5eECT9wRtvoQ+pOrH TtDOKXf5d0UM+hS6BVCut0KBTLDKi1uVMPCdnZ4gD2006B/0sxpssnYsrgRFgdAc /r/tz8rx/4/j72zaoQwQPsUErGySOw4wAJtzQkYCmG/JyxoSst8ZSLbI19W5sHbk FdSiRb+WrIh//AOPjOVkCAZs+uIEQKb+2IQySNSbJcHrUSj6sidu913IN5YEQRvA gQlut2EGrOaQUt8u5X4nlwk5m4r/Wt7Iw6VPuS84a5KI8u/FVZmyO1aSIAiRrkc= =PlHy -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 22:44, Alan Pope alan.p...@canonical.com wrote: Actually my patience is somewhat thin today because we cremated my best friends Mum. Perhaps that has a bearing on my response, but it puts things in perspective. Life is short. I'm sorry to hear that Alan, my thoughts are with your friend and his family, I hope they are okay. There is never any need for personal attacks over a mailing list. I was just trying to highlight the general problem I've been having and have a constructive discussion on the mailing list to see what others thought, I'm not attacking Ubuntu or Unity in any way and I think it is great that Canonical are trying to evolve. I just think we need more customization options, I will go ahead and try to find the right people to bring this up with :) -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23/03/12 22:55, Daniel Case wrote: I was just trying to highlight the general problem I've been having and have a constructive discussion on the mailing list to see what others thought, I'm not attacking Ubuntu or Unity in any way and I think it is great that Canonical are trying to evolve. I just think we need more customization options, I will go ahead and try to find the right people to bring this up with :) Take a look at My Unity. It has some config options, but maybe not enough, I don't know. - -- Alan Pope Engineering Manager Canonical - Product Strategy +44 (0) 7973 620 164 alan.p...@canonical.com http://ubuntu.com/ -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEbBAEBAgAGBQJPbQCCAAoJEMx6UFtfvV4wxgEH+PUhe8yOl2vwbTV5KwLB62Bu CFhWXfRfIZJzYjZ7IJWbovdIDlfdsa72ZdLIPYyoBmHWhKgpWdUPlKrVtvEm/Iu+ KGcZrMwSiUBRj8dVFd2diWE2Dvelz7Ua3jJu0VFPMu3Cfq9F/WUZlvbevLVjPoAN JsIS4du/c4lVWSt+10uhGNH6bS6axwA6uWw5JLpQJxnnvdbBZvjV92/Sibnp5fMB xXluYjY0SacS2JUJ6oLjUmq7pv1adfvgkIXWY2Bw8kdLAZiweLbJ7W1tNRcpCzq6 JS5HbRuwuGlvWZwBiG+jGq+7HUOwPDAMojNgHMnqTpYML/UXT4Aqa3a5JhoKoA== =jtLP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
Re: [ubuntu-uk] Unity launcher ....
On 23 March 2012 20:16, Hakan Koseoglu ha...@koseoglu.org wrote: On 23 March 2012 19:54, Neil Greenwood neil.greenwood@gmail.com wrote: It's policy. The decision was made after usability testing, where users got confused when first maximising a window. where's the launcher gone now? And because the option was being removed, the decision was also made to remove the code to reduce the maintenance requirements. soap box Treating users as idiots is not a policy, it's a mistake. Whereas I agree with this statement, I don't think that in this instance Ubuntu are doing so. However, I do think that Unity in general is not /nearly/ as customisable as Linux users tend to be used to. There always were 2 opposing positions - KDE which has 436546834 different options to tweak, but still can't do a decent vertical taskbar, for instance, versus GNOME, which removed all the confusing twiddly stuff in the name of simplicity. But customisability was still there - for instance, in KDE, you can set the size of new terminal windows. There was no such option in GNOME, but if you shut down with a terminal window open, it remembered it and new ones opened that size. Same effect, fewer options. But Unity is not very customisable. You can do a bit more with CompizConfig and Confity, but not enough. If people want the Launcher at the bottom or the right, they should be permitted - but no, you're not allowed. If they want to have the Launcher fixed, autohide or dodge, they should - but no. Not allowed. If they want an auto-hiding top panel, even if that conflicts with the auto-hiding menus, let them - but no. If they want the Ubuntu button in the panel (as in 10.10 - 11.04) or the first icon, let them choose - but no. If they want to right-click the Ubuntu button and have a context menu of program groups, as used to be there IIRC, let them - but no. Unity is getting quite mature now. None of what I'm proposing is new code - this is all either restoring features that were one present, or things that have been accomplished by hacks, config tweaks and so on. It's all doable. But it's not getting any more configurable - in fact, options are /disappearing./ This is a very serious error of judgement, I think. I think Linux users are used to a higher degree of configurability than Windows or Mac users, and Unity takes it away. I quite like Unity, but I am not impressed by some of the changes in 12.04. As soon as I find a distribution worth installing everywhere, I'll be switching. Mint doesn't cut the mustard. I'm a Kubuntu/Lubuntu user on desktop and Ubuntu server but I don't want to anymore, I don't want to have anything with Ubuntu products. Linux Mint Debian Edition? Crunchbang? Or Debian itself. I think those are your main options. Or if you don't mind losing APT, then Arch Linux, which is getting a lot of attention these days. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 -- ubuntu-uk@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-uk https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
