RE: help needed with adding new character
At 09:48 AM 3/19/2004, Mike Ayers wrote: > In less than half an hour of looking at printed samples, I've > been able to > locate two instances of the symbol replacing the letter A in > a word. If > that's not use in text, I don't know what is. That is use in text as a glyph variant, which is, by my unofficial count, the most frequently cited reason not to encode. No, it's a visual pun. A./
RE: help needed with adding new character
Title: RE: help needed with adding new character > From: Asmus Freytag [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 9:44 PM > In less than half an hour of looking at printed samples, I've > been able to > locate two instances of the symbol replacing the letter A in > a word. If > that's not use in text, I don't know what is. That is use in text as a glyph variant, which is, by my unofficial count, the most frequently cited reason not to encode. /|/|ike
Re: help needed with adding new character
From: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > At 10:36 +0100 2004-03-19, Marco Cimarosti wrote: > >Michael Everson wrote: > >> What "organization" uses the ANARCHY SYMBOL? ;-) > > > >The anarchist movement. Why are you winking? > > That's not "an organization". As Rick said, it's a disorganization. ;-) And even today, anarchists would not like any formal proposition to standardize a glyph variant as the definitive standard for its representation. Each Anarchist group will have its prefered presentation and thus will use its own distinctive glyph variant, should it be a dedicated font, or a graphic design. This has nothing to do with the need to encode it in plain text. For that latest usage, the circled Latin letter A is good enough, and it can be rendered at will with any font or graphic associated with that symbol, when the author needs a specific design and thus cannot count only on the plain-text encoding but needs some rich-text format to convey this specific graphic design. In fact, an Anarchist font could be designed as well to match the desired style for anyone of the existing Unicode characters, not just the circled A. Such font would mimic the appearance of what you could paint manually with a pencil on a rough surface such as a tag on a wall. If you look on the walls of various large cities around the world, you will immediately see that these graphic patterns are very specific to each group (or gang sometimes) which use them as a way to mark their "territory" or area or influence, with very distinctful graphic design, colors, dimensions and associated symbolism. The importance is not in the message itself (when it is present) but really in the graphic and artistic design which serves as an identity. So an Anarchist symbol, if used, will just be a small part of a more general set of symbols that spans larger concepts than just a single character. Also the same anarchist group will use various sorts of "media" to reproduce this symbol, and with lots of variations depending on the surface where it is drawn or painted. Let's keep the circled Latin A as one possible way to represent this symbol in plain-text, but I don't think that plain-text is the best media to convey all the symbolism and graphic patterns needed by anarchist. Suppose that one symbol is encoded as such, anarchists will also refuse to adaopt it as a standard (some may choose to create a simpler mapping to the ASCII capital letter A as well, throughout the text where an uppercase A is present in words). Don't even ask them to use the newly encoded character, they will refuse that rule and argue that their anarchist point of view allows them to do what they want for the texts they produce themselves. Anarchists are definitely not attached to any symbol, even their own; some prefer a lightning symbol with an arrow, some use an A within a triangle, or change the A for another letter from another script, simply because a Latin A may look as a link to the occidental culture foreign to the area where the anarchist group wants to demonstrate its presence. I have seen for example an Hebrew alef rendered similarly within a geometric shape (I think it was a 5-pointed star, as a way to clearly detach the easily recognizable symbol from the 6-pointed David's star which is linked to another religious and cultural symbolism, but I'm not sure it was used as a symbol for an anarchist israelian movement). Probably there are other symbols used by anarchist groups in Japan and Korea, using some Asian related symbolism and a letter from a Asian script. Anarchist groups in South America may choose other cultural symbols such as glyphs from extinct scripts. In fact there seems to exist as many symbols used as groups revendicating an anarchist cultural background.
RE: help needed with adding new character
Jon Wilson wrote: > I disagree that the anarchy symbol is not a character used in the > representation of words. I can write a word beginning with "A" with > either a simple LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A, or with an Anarchy symbol, or > with an existing CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. You can also write an "M" using the Macdonald logo (I have seen it on actual Macdonald's advertising), or an "I" using a jumping table lamp (I have seen it in a cartoon by Pixar). But we don't need to allocate Unicode code points for the Macdonald logo or for a jumping table lamp, do we? Such things are not independent letters, but just graphic variations of the ordinary letters "A", "M", "I", made with the purpose of adding some kind of overtone (ideological, commercial, humoristic). > I also disagree that the Anarchy symbol has no use within a > text. I do not doubt that I can find examples of published > texts where the anarchy symbol is used throughout. Beware of > saying "that isn't real text" just because the character > isn't currently in Unicode. The code should represent usage, > not the other way round. I understand that finding such > text is probably crucial to a successful application. Yes, I think that this is THE very point that you have to demonstrate before filing your proposal. And I bet that the success of your proposal will depend almost entirely on how good this demonstration is. The point is not so much to demonstrate that the symbol exists (that's quite obvious: we've all seen it), or that it is unique (that's quite obvious too, IMHO: it is both graphically and semantically different from the current Unicode circled A): the point is to demonstrate that it is *TEXT*, i.e. that some piece of text could not be encoded without it. I am a subscriber of at least two anarchist magazines (printed on *paper*, so Unicode digital encodings are not at issue here), and I don't recall having ever seen an "anarchy" symbol used *within* the body text of these magazines. For sure, the symbol is ubiquitous *near* the text: it is used as a logo on the magazines' title or in third party's advertising; it is used as typographic decoration; it appears on the flags in the photos of rallies and demonstrations... But, as far as I can recall, it is never uses as part of a sentence. Of course, knowing about your proposal, I will look with doubled attention all next issues, and I will send you any specimen of the symbol used as text. But I am quite skeptical. _ Mârco
RE: help needed with adding new character
Although the popular misconception exists that anarchy actually implies the breaking of all rules, this is actually not the case. "Anarchy" is just a system of goverment - like "monarchy", "matriarchy", "oligarchy" and other "-archies". Anarchy is simply a system of government in which there is no government. This does not (necessarily) imply no laws - there are democratic ways that laws could be established and changed without requiring a government. Though not an anarchist myself, I see no reason to assume that an anarchic society MUST be hateful or violent, and also no reason why adherents of such a philosophy should not be able to organise sufficiently to agree on standardizing the use of a character. It seems to me that quips such as those below are detrimental, and irrelevant to issues of character encoding. Arcane Jill > -Original Message- > From: Kenneth Whistler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:09 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: help needed with adding new character > > > Gentlemen, > > I think we are missing some important questions here. First: > > Why is an Anarchist asking to standardize something?
RE: help needed with adding new character
At 10:36 +0100 2004-03-19, Marco Cimarosti wrote: Michael Everson wrote: What "organization" uses the ANARCHY SYMBOL? ;-) The anarchist movement. Why are you winking? That's not "an organization". As Rick said, it's a disorganization. ;-) -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
RE: help needed with adding new character
Michael Everson wrote: > What "organization" uses the ANARCHY SYMBOL? ;-) The anarchist movement. Why are you winking? Ciao. Marco
RE: help needed with adding new character
At 04:18 PM 3/18/2004, Mike Ayers wrote: > Note that in *that* rendition of the anarchy symbol, the > crossbar on the A does *not* touch the circle on either > edge, but it may just be that the renderer was a little > short of black paint. I find http://www.oneposter.com/Product-recordCount-1-stockid-3744.html more closely resembles the ones that I am used to. naa. If anyhing it has to be an A that's not fully contained in a circle, like in the first example Ken sent out: http://www.oneposter.com/Product-recordCount-1-stockid-6050.html The cross bar of the A is not one neatly connecting the two tall strokes, but that doesn't mean it needs to go outside the circle or touch it. > "Does the anarchy symbol (an 'A' surrounded by a circle) convey > any messages of hate?" Of course! It conveys the message, "I hate my parents"! > If the anarchy symbol is recognized as "an 'A' surrounded by > a circle", then why is its representation by a character > U+24B6 CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A insufficient for any > putative occasional representation of the symbol in text? I still want to see it used *as* text, of which we have so far had no example. Just like the circled P at 24C5 and 2117 are different and just like the PEACE SYMBOL is not decomposed as 16E3 with enclosing circle... In less than half an hour of looking at printed samples, I've been able to locate two instances of the symbol replacing the letter A in a word. If that's not use in text, I don't know what is. A./
RE: help needed with adding new character
In response to Philippe V's message: > Could we get back to encoding real languages and that are still > missing support for their script in Unicode? Wasn't the new subject of > Mendé Kikakui not more valuable in Unicode discussions? > As well as the many other missing African and Asian scripts (Africa > really missing lots of efforts to support its endangered culture which is > still actually used TODAY and with a long history...) Not to dissuade Jon W., but I agree with Philippe on the importance of encoding the many scripts that are used today -- particularly in Africa and Asia -- whose users are anxious to get their script into Unicode. N'Ko is one such script. It is used for the Mande languages of West Africa and has an active community both in Africa and abroad (see http://www.nkoinstitute.com, and http://home.gwu.edu/~cwme/Nko/Nkohome.htm). We (Script Encoding Initiative) are currently assisting in this effort to encode N'Ko the extent we can (with limited funds). The user community has put up some of their own personal funds to help get the script proposal done, but more is needed to pay for the creation of a font and to finish the proposal. The users are particularly keen to get N'Ko script into Unicode so they can use it in email. Other active groups include those wanting to encode Balinese, Ol Chiki, etc. And yes, UNESCO could possibly be a place to look for assistance. (I'll have to investigate it.) With best wishes, Deborah Anderson Script Encoding Initiative (www.linguistics.berkeley.edu/~dwanders ) Deborah Anderson Researcher, Dept. of Linguistics UC Berkeley Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: help needed with adding new character
Title: RE: help needed with adding new character > From: Kenneth Whistler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 3:09 PM > Why is an Anarchist asking to standardize something? To cause chaos in the machinery. Perhaps surprisingly, anarchy requires constant propogation. > And, as |\|\ike intimated: Dyslexia sukcs. > Note that in *that* rendition of the anarchy symbol, the > crossbar on the A does *not* touch the circle on either > edge, but it may just be that the renderer was a little > short of black paint. I find http://www.oneposter.com/Product-recordCount-1-stockid-3744.html more closely resembles the ones that I am used to. > "Does the anarchy symbol (an 'A' surrounded by a circle) convey > any messages of hate?" Of course! It conveys the message, "I hate my parents"! > If the anarchy symbol is recognized as "an 'A' surrounded by > a circle", then why is its representation by a character > U+24B6 CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A insufficient for any > putative occasional representation of the symbol in text? I still want to see it used *as* text, of which we have so far had no example. > If this discussion drifts off taco, will it ever circle around > to A meat conclusion? Unless I am miss steak in, it has already ground to a halt. /|/|ike ^ | +-- Get it right or I fill out the encoding proposal! :-p
Re: help needed with adding new character
Why so many discussions for a symbol that has always been drawn with lots of free variations on lots of supports and is not even governed by a rule beside its weak ressemblance to other members of the symbol family? 24B6 is as acceptable as a variation of a "standard" symbol that does not exist and was never designed as a logo. Could we get back to encoding real languages and that are still missing support for their script in Unicode? Wasn't the new subject of Mendé Kikakui not more valuable in Unicode discussions? As well as the many other missing African and Asian scripts (Africa really missing lots of efforts to support its endangered culture which is still actually used TODAY and with a long history...) Let's hope we'll not have to work later on extinct languages for Africa. With some efforts, I think we should keep the memory of this culture from the people that still have the memory of it, and that could help preserving their knowledge. Isn't there some active Unesco member working and helping here? Or some connected searches in African schools and libraries (Cairo? Cape Town? Tunis? Casablanca? Algiers? Tananarivo? Mauritius? Brazzaville? i.e. places where Internet is better developped and accessible than in the rest of Africa) which may already have some good contacts with searchers around the world, or with emigrated African communities?
RE: help needed with adding new character
Ken and I agree. Though I still think he is dead wrong about the LITTER DUDE. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
RE: help needed with adding new character
Gentlemen, I think we are missing some important questions here. First: Why is an Anarchist asking to standardize something? And, as |\|\ike intimated: Why is this symbol so neat? I always thought the anarchy symbol looked more like: http://www.oneposter.com/Product-recordCount-1-stockid-6050.html Note that in *that* rendition of the anarchy symbol, the crossbar on the A does *not* touch the circle on either edge, but it may just be that the renderer was a little short of black paint. Then there is: http://globalgoodys.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=45 where all parts of the A extend, anarchically, completely outside the circular bounds. Next question: Why are Anarchists buying their posters and t-shirts from online stores, instead of just defacing their own? The answerbag (answerbag.com) has posed the question: "Does the anarchy symbol (an 'A' surrounded by a circle) convey any messages of hate?" To date no one has answered that question -- which I guess is in the spirit of Anarchy. But such a question then does beg another one: If the anarchy symbol is recognized as "an 'A' surrounded by a circle", then why is its representation by a character U+24B6 CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A insufficient for any putative occasional representation of the symbol in text? And *that* begs the next question, related to the first: Why is it so important to Anarchists to have their symbol recognized and enshrined as a character *distinct* from "an 'A' surrounded by a circle", when they currently have the complete freedom, unencumbered by any governmental institution whatsoever, to design and use fonts to display it howsomever they please? Neither the Bush Administration nor the Trilateral Commission -- not even the Benevolent & Protective Order of Elks -- is trying to regulate and control anyone's liberty to display U+24B6 as they will. Next question: If we need a circled sorta-A for Anarchy, why not also the circled triangle symbol that the Siloists used to paste around college campuses? Next: If Anarchists were truly Anarchists, why not break the bounds of conventional expectations, and use U+2A37 MULTIPLICATION SIGN IN DOUBLE CIRCLE one day and U+1D10B MUSICAL SYMBOL SEGNO the next? Those would look equally appealing spray-painted on the walls of Wall Street brokerages, would certainly leave people wondering, and might open their minds to questioning their conventional political beliefs as well. :-) Finally: If this discussion drifts off taco, will it ever circle around to A meat conclusion? --Ken
Re: help needed with adding new character
At 08:27 AM 3/18/2004, Jon Wilson wrote: Hi folks, I believe there is a character missing from the standard. I would like to apply to have it included, but I am a typography and Unicode novice, so I require some assistance with the application process. The character in question is a variant of "CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A", commonly referred to as the "Anarchy" symbol. The bars of the A are longer than normal, extending to touch or even overlap the circle. See for example, http://www.4commongood.org/images/circlea.jpg The horizontal bar from side to side is a variant. I'm more familiar with versions where only the long strokes of the A touch the rim. This character has a distinct history and meaning, and I believe it to be suitable for inclusion in Unicode as a separate character from CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. I concur - it's not 24B6 As I understand it, I need to do the following: 1) Check that the character does not already exist within the Unicode standard. I don't think it does, but someone more familiar with it may wish to double check It's not 2) Establish that no existing characters would do as replacements. As I see it, CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A is different both typographically and semanticly. 1 and 2 are the same - your symbol is not 24B6 3) Decide on a name for the character. Your proposed name ANARCHY SYMBOL would be suitable for a proposal. It's similar to existing names of like items and follows the formal name guidelines. The committee can do the fine tuning. 4) Determine a suitable code-page for the character you mean 'block' or code location. Actually, you don't need to do that. You are asked to state whether you like BMP or not, but you may recommend a code location. I suggest you ask for 269D. I don't think that the 2100 block would be better - it's more of a symbol than a special letterform (never mind that we stuck 2117 in that block). The committee will fine tune that one as well. 5) Write a formal description of the properties and shape of the character. You don't need to describe the shape, you need to show it in (many) examples. 6) Create or find a computerised font representation of the character (preferably free) For this symbol, the editors are willing to volunteer creating a glyph should it get accepted, so you can reference me as a 'source of font' for this one, for example. 7) Collect suitable references to justify the inclusion of the character in the Unicode standard. A quick google search give many leads to be followed up in this area. Probably. In the spirit of anarchy, I am likely to pursue this application, whatever response I get! Equally in the spirit of anarchy, you are free to make provide whatever comments and assistance you wish, on any of the above points. Good luck. A./
Re: help needed with adding new character
At 10:34 AM 3/18/2004, Michael Everson wrote: I think the ANARCHY SIGN is perfectly good, but I think it is a glyph variant of an existing character. Just as 2117 and 24C5 are similar, but unrelated the *ANARCHY SIGN is not the same as 24B6. A./
RE: help needed with adding new character
Title: RE: help needed with adding new character > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Jon Wilson > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 11:05 AM > I disagree that the anarchy symbol is not a character used in the > representation of words. I can write a word beginning with "A" with > either a simple LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A, or with an Anarchy symbol, or > with an existing CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. The first two have > different meanings to anyone who understands what the Anarchy > symbol is. You are confusing connotation with meaning. "Euthanasia", spelled with anarchy signs, still means "mercy killing", although it would have a different connotation due to the anarchy signs. The anarchy signs nonetheless, are being used as "a"s. > I also dispute that the anarchy symbol has the same > ideographic value as > a McDonalds logo. The McDonalds arch is only meaningful when > represented > in a particular font (and perhaps colour). The specific latin > font used > to represent the CAPITAL A in the anarchy symbol is unimportant. Anarchists are sloppy with their logo, or, perhaps more accurately, the variation is part of the logo. McDonalds has used many representations of the arches over the years. I could scrawl one on a wall in spraypaint, and, so long as the tops were rounded and the bottom overlapped and extended, it would be recognizable to most people. So I think you're just talking about a logo here. A similar case is the "peace sign" (which I always suspected as the inspiration for the anarchy logo), which is encoded, but I suspect only for dingbat compatibility (I'm not sure, but it doesn't really belong either). > PS. Croquet challenge accepted - I have a set at home. I > believe I get > to choose time and location? Sure. /|/|ike
Re: help needed with adding new character
From: "Michael Everson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > At 19:04 + 2004-03-18, Jon Wilson wrote: > > >I also disagree that the Anarchy symbol has no use within a text. I > >do not doubt that I can find examples of published texts where the > >anarchy symbol is used throughout. > > Please do. I've seen it on brochures and fliers distributed in streets during pre-electoral periods by several work unions and local branches of the far-left parties in France. These symbols are common also on some displays sticked illegally on street walls and street lights. You'll find plenty of street "art" or tags reproducing this symbol. But almost always the symbol is used only for what it represents itself and is never part of a word. I see it exactly like a logo for a party, or for a company trademark. I've never seen it used in book indexes for example... Unlike, religious symbols that are commonly found near people names in necrological parts of newspapers, or in various book indexes where they are used as a convenient and meaningful shortcut for a more complete annotation.
Re: help needed with adding new character
At 19:04 + 2004-03-18, Jon Wilson wrote: I also disagree that the Anarchy symbol has no use within a text. I do not doubt that I can find examples of published texts where the anarchy symbol is used throughout. Please do. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: help needed with adding new character
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
"Ideographic" is a vexed term, and leads to bad reasoning, so let's not use it.
I won't disagree with that.
There is little connection
between the up and down arrows as used by linguists vs. chemists, but we
encode only one set of arrows nevertheless.
Correct.
However, consider the case of right and left arrows. A double barred
arrow has specific meaning ("implies" / "implied by") in mathematics and
logic. Hence extra glyphs are required. A very simple typographical
change makes the world of semantic difference. The semantics of a
circled A changes when the lines of the letter touch or extend past the
circle.
I disagree that the anarchy symbol is not a character used in the
representation of words. I can write a word beginning with "A" with
either a simple LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A, or with an Anarchy symbol, or
with an existing CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. The first two have
different meanings to anyone who understands what the Anarchy symbol is.
Any self-respecting anarchist would laugh at the third (although it
would constitute a suitable alternative glyph within the meaning of the
Unicode standard).
I also disagree that the Anarchy symbol has no use within a text. I do
not doubt that I can find examples of published texts where the anarchy
symbol is used throughout. Beware of saying "that isn't real text" just
because the character isn't currently in Unicode. The code should
represent usage, not the other way round. I understand that finding such
text is probably crucial to a successful application.
I also dispute that the anarchy symbol has the same ideographic value as
a McDonalds logo. The McDonalds arch is only meaningful when represented
in a particular font (and perhaps colour). The specific latin font used
to represent the CAPITAL A in the anarchy symbol is unimportant.
Jon
PS. Croquet challenge accepted - I have a set at home. I believe I get
to choose time and location?
RE: help needed with adding new character
I am assuming that you have read, or intend to read the material on the Unicode site page about proposals [1]. I think the obvious name to propose for the symbol is ANARCHY. ANARCHY certainly is a distinct symbol but whether it merits encoding as a text character will be in question unless its use in text can be shown. Symbols in general have a difficult time getting encoded, and with good reason. If you can find evidence for use of this symbol as text, the most appropriate block in my opinion would be Letterlike Symbols U+2100 to U+214F if that block hasn't been filled by the time ANARCHY gets approved. (There are only five unused codepoints in that block as of Unicode 4.0 and two of those have approved proposed characters tentatively assigned to them.) On the other hand, placing ANARCHY in the Dingbats block would certainly be appropriate according to the principles of Anarchy, altho not according to those of Unicode. [1] http://www.unicode.org/pending/proposals.html
Re: help needed with adding new character
Jon Wilson scripsit: > PEACE SYMBOL, YIN YANG and HAMMER AND SICKLE are represented in Unicode. > The first and third are even logos for specific organisations (CND and > various communist governements). PEACE SYMBOL, as its name indicates, has a considerably wider scope than nuclear disarmament, at least in the U.S. Symbols as such are not excluded from Unicode, and logos may be representable there if they constitute letters (IIRC, Xerox actually had a company font with only the four glyphs required to write their logo) or known symbols. But they have to be symbols that commonly appear with or interact with text. In addition, the fact (arguendo) that something dubious was done in the past is no argument for doing it again. > If there is recorded discussion as to why these characters are included, > and others not, then I would be interested in reading it. I'm not enough of a Unicode old fart to comment on this. > >>This character has a distinct history and meaning, and I believe it to > >>be suitable for inclusion in Unicode as a separate character from > >>CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. > > > >That argument would be good if the character were Han, but it is not. > > Do I understand you to be saying a character cannot be ideographic > merely because it is based on a western letter? "Ideographic" is a vexed term, and leads to bad reasoning, so let's not use it. I mean that if two Han characters are distinct in history and meaning (or even just in abstract shape), they are not unified in Unicode; but this argument is insufficient outside the domain of Han characters. There is little connection between the up and down arrows as used by linguists vs. chemists, but we encode only one set of arrows nevertheless. -- "You know, you haven't stopped talking John Cowan since I came here. You must have been http://www.reutershealth.com vaccinated with a phonograph needle." [EMAIL PROTECTED] --Rufus T. Firefly http://www.ccil.org/~cowan
Re: help needed with adding new character
I think the ANARCHY SIGN is perfectly good, but I think it is a glyph variant of an existing character. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: help needed with adding new character
> See for example, http://www.4commongood.org/images/circlea.jpg OK. > 4) Determine a suitable code-page for the character We don't do "code pages"; and you can actually skip this step if you aren't sure where it might be able to go. > 6) Create or find a computerised font representation of the character > (preferably free) And/or unencumbered, and certainly it must be available for Unicode Inc to secure the rights to use the font. Jon, if you want to submit a proposal, by all means do so. Let UTC decide whether they think it's a character or not. You have the process pretty well figured out. You will probably be expected to provide plenty of evidence that this "character" is used in running text -- e.g. scanned images from various relevant publications showing its usage. If plenty of such evidence doesn't exist, then the "character" is probably a novelty that hasn't caught on very far. (Even if your proposal isn't accepted, it's a good exercise, and you'll be better equipped to propose other things in the future.) Rick (As usual on this list, I am only stating my opinion and this is not an official statement of any kind.)
Re: help needed with adding new character
At 18:00 + 2004-03-18, Jon Wilson wrote: It's basically a logo, and as such doesn't belong in Unicode, which doesn't encode logos. PEACE SYMBOL, YIN YANG and HAMMER AND SICKLE are represented in Unicode. The first and third are even logos for specific organisations (CND and various communist governements). What "organization" uses the ANARCHY SYMBOL? ;-) -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
RE: help needed with adding new character
At 09:49 -0800 2004-03-18, Mike Ayers wrote: Whoops! We forgot step 0, "Verify that it is in fact a character"[1]. This is where you should have stopped, as the glyph in question is used in the unique composition of exactly no words. It's a symbol, not a character. Lots of symbols are characters. -- Michael Everson * * Everson Typography * * http://www.evertype.com
Re: help needed with adding new character
> What "organization" uses the ANARCHY SYMBOL? ;-) That would be the DIS Organization. Rick
RE: help needed with adding new character
Title: RE: help needed with adding new character > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Michael Everson > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 10:13 AM > At 09:49 -0800 2004-03-18, Mike Ayers wrote: > > >Whoops! We forgot step 0, "Verify that it is in fact a > >character"[1]. This is where you should have stopped, as the glyph > >in question is used in the unique composition of exactly no words. > >It's a symbol, not a character. > > Lots of symbols are characters. Not that one, though. /|/|ike
RE: help needed with adding new character
Title: RE: help needed with adding new character > Do I understand you to be saying a character cannot be ideographic > merely beacuse it is based on a western letter? How about because it has no ideographic alphabet to be part of? /|/|ike
Re: help needed with adding new character
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon Wilson scripsit: The character in question is a variant of "CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A", commonly referred to as the "Anarchy" symbol. The bars of the A are longer than normal, extending to touch or even overlap the circle. It's basically a logo, and as such doesn't belong in Unicode, which doesn't encode logos. PEACE SYMBOL, YIN YANG and HAMMER AND SICKLE are represented in Unicode. The first and third are even logos for specific organisations (CND and various communist governements). If there is recorded discussion as to why these characters are included, and others not, then I would be interested in reading it. This character has a distinct history and meaning, and I believe it to be suitable for inclusion in Unicode as a separate character from CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. > That argument would be good if the character were Han, but it is not. Do I understand you to be saying a character cannot be ideographic merely beacuse it is based on a western letter? Jon
RE: help needed with adding new character
Title: RE: help needed with adding new character > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On > Behalf Of Jon Wilson > Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2004 8:27 AM > The character in question is a variant of "CIRCLED LATIN > CAPITAL LETTER > A", commonly referred to as the "Anarchy" symbol. The bars > of the A are > longer than normal, extending to touch or even overlap the circle. The versions I have seen tend to have all points extending past the circle, except on top. > See for example, http://www.4commongood.org/images/circlea.jpg So polished and stylized! It screams, "Anarchy! Anarchy! Mmm, what's for lunch?" > This character has a distinct history and meaning, and I > believe it to > be suitable for inclusion in Unicode as a separate character from > CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. > > As I understand it, I need to do the following: > > 1) Check that the character does not already exist within the Unicode > standard. I don't think it does, but someone more familiar > with it may > wish to double check Whoops! We forgot step 0, "Verify that it is in fact a character"[1]. This is where you should have stopped, as the glyph in question is used in the unique composition of exactly no words. It's a symbol, not a character. > In the spirit of anarchy, I am likely to pursue this application, > whatever response I get! Equally in the spirit of anarchy, > you are free > to make provide whatever comments and assistance you wish, on > any of the > above points. In the spirit of anarchy, I challenge you to a croquet match. /|/|ike [1] - Not quoted from anywhere, but it is a requirment nonetheless. Otherwise, we'd have the McDonald's arches and Nike swoosh encoded.
Re: help needed with adding new character
Jon Wilson scripsit: > The character in question is a variant of "CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER > A", commonly referred to as the "Anarchy" symbol. The bars of the A are > longer than normal, extending to touch or even overlap the circle. It's basically a logo, and as such doesn't belong in Unicode, which doesn't encode logos. Insofar as it's used in or near running text (to write the word "anarchy" itself, or as a bullet point, e.g.), it's a mere glyph variant of circled capital A. There is unlikely to be any text where the two are used contrastively. > See for example, http://www.4commongood.org/images/circlea.jpg > > This character has a distinct history and meaning, and I believe it to > be suitable for inclusion in Unicode as a separate character from > CIRCLED LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A. That argument would be good if the character were Han, but it is not. > In the spirit of anarchy, I am likely to pursue this application, > whatever response I get! Equally in the spirit of anarchy, you are free > to make provide whatever comments and assistance you wish, on any of the > above points. In the spirit of anarchy, please find some other contribution to the social organism. -- A poetical purist named Cowan [that's me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Once put the rest of us dowan. [on xml-dev] "Your verse would be sweeterhttp://www.ccil.org/~cowan If it only had metrehttp://www.reutershealth.com And rhymes that didn't force me to frowan." [overpacked line!] --Michael Kay
