Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Richard Gaskin]

Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:

>> What is the advantage of inserting backscript as opposed to just
>> start using? Aside of course from the difference that I can insert
>> script of any object as a backscript.
> 
> That's pretty much it. In a plugin, the natural place for the
> openStack handler is in the stack script, and if you start using the
> plugin stack, you need to put a little extra logic into the openStack
> handler to make sure it doesn't run every time any stack is opened
> (because it's going to be in the message path, if you start using
> it). Putting the library code in a button instead sidesteps the whole
> issue.

Alternatvely, for libraries you can put all UI-related stuff like openStack
handlers in the card script, safely outside the message path of other
stacks.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[J. Landman Gay]

On 2/10/04 3:06 PM, Robert Brenstein wrote:

What is the advantage of inserting backscript as opposed to just start 
using? Aside of course from the difference that I can insert script of 
any object as a backscript.
No real advantages per se, but there is a minor difference. Scripts that 
are in use are placed before the Home stack. Scripts inserted into the 
back are placed after the Home stack, just before the engine itself.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Judy Perry]

Great!  Can't wait to try it.

Thanks, Jeanne!

Judy

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:

> At 10:21 AM -0800 2/10/04, Judy Perry wrote:
> >I was going to ask about this very solution that Jeanne suggests:
> >
> >How to do it?
> >
> >Sorry if this is a dumb question...
>
> Not at all.
>
> There are various ways to do it, but here's one:
>
> 1. Create a stack with one button. In the button script, put the
> handlers that you would put in the Home stack if this were HC.
>
> 2. In the stack script, put
>   on openStack
> if the name of button "My Button" \
>is not among the lines of the backscripts
> then insert the script of button "My Button" into back
>   end openStack
>
> 3. Save the stack in the Plugins folder.
>
> 4. Choose Development menu > Plugins > Plugin Settings, choose your
> plugin from the menu at the top, then choose "Revolution starts up"
> and "invisible". (For this kind of plugin, you don't need to choose
> any messages to send.)
> --
> jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.jaedworks.com
> ___
> use-revolution mailing list
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
>

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Robert Brenstein]

At 10:21 AM -0800 2/10/04, Judy Perry wrote:
I was going to ask about this very solution that Jeanne suggests:

How to do it?

Sorry if this is a dumb question...
Not at all.

There are various ways to do it, but here's one:

1. Create a stack with one button. In the button script, put the 
handlers that you would put in the Home stack if this were HC.

2. In the stack script, put
 on openStack
   if the name of button "My Button" \
  is not among the lines of the backscripts
   then insert the script of button "My Button" into back
 end openStack
3. Save the stack in the Plugins folder.

4. Choose Development menu > Plugins > Plugin Settings, choose your 
plugin from the menu at the top, then choose "Revolution starts up" 
and "invisible". (For this kind of plugin, you don't need to choose 
any messages to send.)
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
What is the advantage of inserting backscript as opposed to just 
start using? Aside of course from the difference that I can insert 
script of any object as a backscript.

Robert
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Marty Billingsley]

> On Mon, 9 Feb 2004, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote:
>
> > I'd use plugins for this. You can load a plugin automatically on
> > startup and have its openStack script put the stack script in use -
> > that's what I'd do.

Judy writes:
> I was going to ask about this very solution that Jeanne suggests:
>
> How to do it?
>
> Sorry if this is a dumb question...

Me too.  How do I do it?

  - marty

--
Marty Billingsley ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
The University of Chicago Laboratory Schools

"We are our choices"
   - Sartre
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 10:21 AM -0800 2/10/04, Judy Perry wrote:
I was going to ask about this very solution that Jeanne suggests:

How to do it?

Sorry if this is a dumb question...
Not at all.

There are various ways to do it, but here's one:

1. Create a stack with one button. In the button script, put the 
handlers that you would put in the Home stack if this were HC.

2. In the stack script, put
 on openStack
   if the name of button "My Button" \
  is not among the lines of the backscripts
   then insert the script of button "My Button" into back
 end openStack
3. Save the stack in the Plugins folder.

4. Choose Development menu > Plugins > Plugin Settings, choose your 
plugin from the menu at the top, then choose "Revolution starts up" 
and "invisible". (For this kind of plugin, you don't need to choose 
any messages to send.)
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Christopher Mitchell]

That seems to have been the attitude starting day one of my first uni 
CS class, and among all the self-taught programmers of a variety of 
that paradigm language.

The argument is, from my best friend the Java and Flash programmer "but 
I could do that in Java" or "That would look better in Flash."

I usually respond to him that I'm cat'ing all the contents of The 
Matrix DVD out to my printer and will mail it to him.  Once he types it 
all in, I hope he enjoys the movie.

I have heard from him and others time and time again "but I can do that 
in [X]" ... He goes to great lengths to learn the newer (much better 
looking) gui toolkits for Java and then he figures since he knows how 
to do it, he doesn't need to look at any other option for making the 
GUI by an easier method.  (one that may have been available in the 
first place).

I am like this too, sometimes, though.  we all are.  Often if I know 
only one way to get somewhere, I will drive that way every time.  
Someone else might know a way that cuts out 10 miles of driving, but 
I'm already comfortable with "my way."  it is for this reason that I 
would stand behind the argument that changing the xTalk/Transcript 
syntax to make it more feasible to C-paradigm programmers is 
inappropriate.  Having Rev installed on my powerbook does not erase GCC 
should I be so inclined...

Yours,
Chris
On Feb 9, 2004, at 8:02 AM, Rob Cozens wrote:


If memory serves, none of these "standard" statements would pass a 
FORTRAN, COBOL, PL/1, Pascal, or Modula compiler or a BASIC 
interpreter.

Must C syntax prevail for a language to be non-"beginner-ish"?
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 2:36 PM -0600 2/9/04, Marty Billingsley wrote:
Another example of the added difficulty: we do a project that
incorporates music (we create an electronic keyboard) using Shakobox.
The students have to explicitly start the stack using Shakobox and
also include an applescript which quits an external application when
they close the stack.  I'd like to hide this detail from my students;
right now I put a stack in a central location that they can copy
from; the stack has the scripts necessary to make Shakobox work, but
nothing else.  Having the Home stack back would be great; is there
some way to mimic that in Rev?
I'd use plugins for this. You can load a plugin automatically on 
startup and have its openStack script put the stack script in use - 
that's what I'd do.
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Marty Billingsley]

Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asks
>Marty Billingsley wrote:
>
>> That said, the RR user interface isn't as friendly toward
>> students as it could be, but we're coping. :-)
>
>If you could make three changes to the Rev UI what would they be?

Have to think about this for a while.  I'm in the middle of the
second go-around of a quarter-long course that was taught in
HyperCard until this year (to eighth graders), and am just getting
a handle on what the kids find to be difficult.

1: more for my convenience than the students', but I'd love to
have the Home stack back.  I used to be able to include a whole
library of sounds for the students to use without having to
explicitly import them.  Now I have to give the students a CD of
sound effects and have them import the sounds into their projects
before they can use them.  Huge time-waster.

Another example of the added difficulty: we do a project that
incorporates music (we create an electronic keyboard) using Shakobox.
The students have to explicitly start the stack using Shakobox and
also include an applescript which quits an external application when
they close the stack.  I'd like to hide this detail from my students;
right now I put a stack in a central location that they can copy
from; the stack has the scripts necessary to make Shakobox work, but
nothing else.  Having the Home stack back would be great; is there
some way to mimic that in Rev?

2: minor annoyances could be fixed, such as the properties
inspector sometimes not inspecting the object that is currently
selected.  I'm thinking it's supposed to switch when when you
switch selections, but it only happens about half the time.
Since students aren't very alert to this they end up changing
properties of the wrong object some of the time.

The painting tools aren't very robust; they often don't work
when another object, like a button, is present on the card.
I like to encourage the students to create their own art work
instead of just using images off the web, so this is off-putting.

3: the properties inspector has many more options than my students
use.  They find it hard to remember where things are, because (to
them) the placement isn't always logical.  Why, for example, can't
you choose the text color in the text formatting tab?  I'd like
some way to simplify the inspector so that things my students are
likely to need will be on the main tab (basic properties) and
everything else is someplace else.  This, of course, would have
to be configurable by each user, much the way toolbars are in
many apps.

This was a good question!  Made me thinkand realize that the
UI is actually pretty robust, if the above is all I could come
up with.

Oh, and help could be easier.  Better keyword search and/or index
to the transcript language dictionary.  Right now you have to
know the name of the thing you want to find out about.  We need
a transcript dictionary of synonyms. :-)

  - marty

--
Marty Billingsley ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
The University of Chicago Laboratory Schools

"We are our choices"
   - Sartre


___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Rob Cozens]

Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a 
bit "beginner-ish"
Frank, et al:

Is there something inherently inferior about a programming 
environment that can be used productively by someone who doesn't have 
a degree in computer science?

Do professional developers feel threatened by the concept of business 
people writing custom software to drive their business without 
employing a programmer to assist or do the job for them?

As a professional with 30 years in the field, I am IMPRESSED that 
people like local MUG HyperCard SIG member, Carl Chaney, could write 
functional work order processing, invoicing, & tax reconciliation 
software for his laser engraving business and a point of sale system 
for his daughter's ice cream parlor in HyperTalk without taking one 
programming course and without even any experience using a 
spreadsheet.  Sure his work looked "beginner-ish"; BUT IT DID THE JOB 
HE WANTED DONE.

Does the fact that Carl Chaney could do that in X-Talk, does that 
mean, a priori, that X-Talk is an inferior development environment?

If programming were illustration and program languages were boxes of 
crayons, my analogy would be:

Give a room full of ordinary people X-Talk crayons, and everyone of 
them will create an illustration.  A ten year old's illustration may 
look less polished than an adult's, which in turn may look less 
polished than a professional illustrator's; but everyone can produce 
something meaningful to them.

Give a room full of ordinary people C crayons, and most won't be able 
to draw a single line.

Which environment is truly "beginner-ish"?
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Kevin Miller]

On 9/2/04 2:31 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Does that include SGI Irix? I still don't see any "current" Rev software
> available for all of the supposedly supported flavors of Unix. If you are
> dropping those platforms, please just say so.
> 
> Roger Eller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

We're not.  A couple of the platform build boxes got lost during the
technology acquisition process, we're sorting it out.  In the mean time, 2.0
works just fine on that platform, and there aren't many platform specific
changes so I would recommend just using the 2.0 engine with the current IDE.

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Rob Cozens]

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)

Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a 
bit "beginner-ish"
Gee Frank,

If memory serves, none of these "standard" statements would pass a 
FORTRAN, COBOL, PL/1, Pascal, or Modula compiler or a BASIC 
interpreter.

Must C syntax prevail for a language to be non-"beginner-ish"?
--
Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Roger . E . Eller]

On 9/2/04 09:23 AM, Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Without in any way losing our great Mac
> support, we're working hard on our presence on other platforms.

Kevin,

Does that include SGI Irix? I still don't see any "current" Rev software 
available for all of the supposedly supported flavors of Unix. If you are 
dropping those platforms, please just say so.

Roger Eller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Kevin Miller]

On 9/2/04 2:22 am, Ken Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> I thought Kevin dealt well with that one the other day. If
>> anyone has a 
>> perception that Rev is a Mac tool, there's not much that can
>> be done to 
>> help them. The MacWorld (UK?) reviewer who said that obviously had
>> spent little or no time writing the review. Nothing at RunRev's Web
>> site, in their marketing or, anywhere else that I've seen
>> conveys that 
>> message.
> 
> Sorry, Dan, I respectfully disagree. Rev has had ads or been written
> about in several Mac magazines (MacWorld UK, MacAddict, MacTech), but I
> have yet to see an ad or write-up in a PC magazine (and I subscribe to a
> bunch). I don't know about UNIX mags, but perhaps someone else can
> comment on this. Do a web search for "Runtime Revolution" and see just
> how many "hits" you get for sites that advertise or promote PC
> development tools or news on the PC front.

Actually, we've had lots of reviews in the PC press.  The balance of the
installed base is shifting.  Without in any way losing our great Mac
support, we're working hard on our presence on other platforms.

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

RE: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[xbury . cs]

I know that a lot of colleagues would rather not use a "Mac" tool...

Not that they like Microsoft tool better but what PC, SUN, Unix, Linux
 marketing have they seen? They surely dont look at mac stuff...

While the Mac market is important, Im sure they're missing about
90% of the programmer's market with this kind of tactic... 

cheers
Xavier

On 09/02/2004 03:22:30 use-revolution-bounces wrote:
>> I thought Kevin dealt well with that one the other day. If
>> anyone has a
>> perception that Rev is a Mac tool, there's not much that can
>> be done to
>> help them. The MacWorld (UK?) reviewer who said that obviously had
>> spent little or no time writing the review. Nothing at RunRev's Web
>> site, in their marketing or, anywhere else that I've seen
>> conveys that
>> message.
>
>Sorry, Dan, I respectfully disagree. Rev has had ads or been written
>about in several Mac magazines (MacWorld UK, MacAddict, MacTech), but I
>have yet to see an ad or write-up in a PC magazine (and I subscribe to a
>bunch). I don't know about UNIX mags, but perhaps someone else can
>comment on this. Do a web search for "Runtime Revolution" and see just
>how many "hits" you get for sites that advertise or promote PC
>development tools or news on the PC front.
>
>And look at the web site - the first page (after you get past the flags)
>has the words "Mac", "MacWorld" and "MacUser" all over it. I *know* this
>not the norm and is because we just came out of MacWorld, and Rev won an
>Eddy in MacWorld magazine, but for people going to the site in the last
>couple of months, it helps to form an opinion that Rev is primarily a
>Mac tool.
>
>And speaking of MacWorld, RunRev has been at conventions selling Rev,
>but what kinds of conventions? Almost exclusively Mac conventions
>(AFAIK). And once again, regardless for the reason for it, it adds to
>the "buzz" about Rev as a Mac tool.
>
>Additionally, Rev is very often compared to RealBasic - primarily known
>as a Mac development environment - and that doesn't help its image one
>bit.
>
>Finally, there are a handful of features that need to be in the product
>(IMHO) to be "taken seriously" in the PC community (ActiveX support,
>Win32 DLL access, etc.), which may be part of the reason it's not been
>covered in the PC trades.
>
>Look, I'm not trying to say that what RunRev's doing is not helping sell
>boxes, but what I *am* saying is that the groundswell of commentary on
>Rev is in the Mac community. And to shake that off and truly be a
>cross-platform tool, RunRev will need to balance the Mac marketing with
>marketing in the Windows and UNIX communities, when it is the
>appropriate time to do so.
>
>Just my $0.02,
>
>Ken Ray
>Sons of Thunder Software
>Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/
>
>
>___
>use-revolution mailing list
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Visit us at http://www.clearstream.com
  
IMPORTANT MESSAGE

Internet communications are not secure and therefore Clearstream International does 
not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message.

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally 
privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee. If you are not the intended 
recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or any action taken or omitted to be 
taken in reliance on it, is prohibited and may be unlawful. Any views expressed in 
this e-mail are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically 
states them to be the views of Clearstream International or of any of its affiliates 
or subsidiaries.

END OF DISCLAIMER
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Dom]

Frank Leahy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a bit
> "beginner-ish".

You are right. "talk" statements are way too childish!
Speak of real programer language, not a quiche-eater one! 
(here, in fact, it is a bottle-eater one ;-)))

Below is an example of what to do to make Transcript a real language:



#define MAXBEER (99)

void chug(int beers);

main()
{
register beers;

for(beers = MAXBEER; beers; chug(beers--))
  puts("");

puts("\nTime to buy more beer!\n");

exit(0);
}

void chug(register beers)
{
char howmany[8], *s;

s = beers != 1 ? "s" : "";
printf("%d bottle%s of beer on the wall,\n", beers, s);
printf("%d bottle%s of ber . . . ,\n", beers, s);
printf("Take one down, pass it around,\n");

if(--beers) sprintf(howmany, "%d", beers); else strcpy(howmany, "No
more");
s = beers != 1 ? "s" : "";
printf("%s bottle%s of beer on the wall.\n", howmany, s);
} 



PS: everybody should understand that i am kidding ;-))
Plz don't touch transcript's syntax!!!

-- 
Vous parlez français ? faites un tour sur le groupe francophone !
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

RE: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Chipp Walters]

I'm in agreement with Ken on this one. As mainly a PC user, it is obvious to
me that RR is marketing mainly at Mac users. This is because ex-HyperCard
users are the 'low hanging fruit' for RR - and a company like RR with
limited resources wants to make the easy sales first.

While Tom's GOOGLING efforts may be good for a chuckle, they are in no way
indicitive of how RR targets their tool. Ken's points are well taken. If RR
wants to be taken seriously as a professional cross-platform development
tool, they will have to change their messaging.

-Chipp


> Sorry, Dan, I respectfully disagree. Rev has had ads or been written
> about in several Mac magazines (MacWorld UK, MacAddict, MacTech), but I
> have yet to see an ad or write-up in a PC magazine (and I subscribe to a
> bunch). I don't know about UNIX mags, but perhaps someone else can
> comment on this. Do a web search for "Runtime Revolution" and see just
> how many "hits" you get for sites that advertise or promote PC
> development tools or news on the PC front.
>
> And look at the web site - the first page (after you get past the flags)
> has the words "Mac", "MacWorld" and "MacUser" all over it. I *know* this
> not the norm and is because we just came out of MacWorld, and Rev won an
> Eddy in MacWorld magazine, but for people going to the site in the last
> couple of months, it helps to form an opinion that Rev is primarily a
> Mac tool.
>
> And speaking of MacWorld, RunRev has been at conventions selling Rev,
> but what kinds of conventions? Almost exclusively Mac conventions
> (AFAIK). And once again, regardless for the reason for it, it adds to
> the "buzz" about Rev as a Mac tool.
>
> Additionally, Rev is very often compared to RealBasic - primarily known
> as a Mac development environment - and that doesn't help its image one
> bit.
>
> Finally, there are a handful of features that need to be in the product
> (IMHO) to be "taken seriously" in the PC community (ActiveX support,
> Win32 DLL access, etc.), which may be part of the reason it's not been
> covered in the PC trades.
>
> Look, I'm not trying to say that what RunRev's doing is not helping sell
> boxes, but what I *am* saying is that the groundswell of commentary on
> Rev is in the Mac community. And to shake that off and truly be a
> cross-platform tool, RunRev will need to balance the Mac marketing with
> marketing in the Windows and UNIX communities, when it is the
> appropriate time to do so.
> >


___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Thomas McGrath III]

Yes, Mark I was delighted by the Japanese sites. I went to a few of 
them but was very lost. I did find a pdf on using REV in an othello 
type game that I am finding very interesting. So although I knew about 
what you mention below concerning Google I still enjoyed do it and 
checking out  a lot of the pages.

Still though, the numbers themselves are not very trustworthy but I 
think the percentages may say something?? But I sure would not bet my 
paycheck on any of it.

Thanks for seeing the fun of it.

Tom

On Feb 9, 2004, at 12:35 AM, Mark Wieder wrote:

Thomas-

Well, I wouldn't put too much faith in those Google searches. A search
for "Runtime Revolution" without "macintosh" turned up some 33,000
hits, but many on just the first page either went to RunRev or to
MacWorld. So, while it's true that "macintosh" doesn't show up on
those pages, "mac" certainly does. And "PC" shows up even when
"windows" doesn't.
Also keep in mind that that's 33,000 *pages*, not sites, i.e., that
RunRev page that shows up at the top of the list is just the intro
page - the site itself is obviously full of references to platforms.
Good clean fun, though. I can get lost for hours doing Google
searches. Ya never know where you'll end up... some of the Japanese
runrev links were quite interesting.
--
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Thomas J. McGrath III
SCS
1000 Killarney Dr.
Pittsburgh, PA 15234
412-885-8541
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Thomas McGrath III]

AND FWIW,

Find all of the words "Runtime Revolution" and Without the words 
"Windows, Macintosh" and found 20,600 matches.

Find all of the words "Runtime Revolution" found 27,100 matches.

So, I figure 1,800 sites mention Macintosh and 6,400 mention 
Windows!

I don't know but that sounds kinda Windows biased as far as Runtime 
Revolution is concerned, or it may be all hogwash.
But, yes winning the Mac award may seem biased but maybe soon Rev can 
win the PCWorld award too!

All in fun, :-)

Tom

On Feb 8, 2004, at 9:51 PM, Thomas McGrath III wrote:

Ken,
I just did a search on advanced Google as follows:
Find all of the words "Runtime Revolution" and Without the words 
"Macintosh" and found 25,300 matches.
That's 25,300 matches that don't mention Macintosh!!!

I did the same search without windows as follows:

Find all of the words "Runtime Revolution" and Without the words 
"Windows" and found 20,700 matches.
That's only 20,700 matches that don't mention Windows!!!

This tells me that Windows is mentioned on more sites for Run Rev than 
Macintosh is!!!

FWIW

Tom

On Feb 8, 2004, at 9:22 PM, Ken Ray wrote:

Sorry, Dan, I respectfully disagree. Rev has had ads or been written
about in several Mac magazines (MacWorld UK, MacAddict, MacTech), but 
I
have yet to see an ad or write-up in a PC magazine (and I subscribe 
to a
bunch). I don't know about UNIX mags, but perhaps someone else can
comment on this. Do a web search for "Runtime Revolution" and see just
how many "hits" you get for sites that advertise or promote PC
development tools or news on the PC front.

Thomas J. McGrath III
SCS
1000 Killarney Dr.
Pittsburgh, PA 15234
412-885-8541
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Thomas J. McGrath III
SCS
1000 Killarney Dr.
Pittsburgh, PA 15234
412-885-8541
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Thomas McGrath III]

Ken,
I just did a search on advanced Google as follows:
Find all of the words "Runtime Revolution" and Without the words 
"Macintosh" and found 25,300 matches.
That's 25,300 matches that don't mention Macintosh!!!

I did the same search without windows as follows:

Find all of the words "Runtime Revolution" and Without the words 
"Windows" and found 20,700 matches.
That's only 20,700 matches that don't mention Windows!!!

This tells me that Windows is mentioned on more sites for Run Rev than 
Macintosh is!!!

FWIW

Tom

On Feb 8, 2004, at 9:22 PM, Ken Ray wrote:

Sorry, Dan, I respectfully disagree. Rev has had ads or been written
about in several Mac magazines (MacWorld UK, MacAddict, MacTech), but I
have yet to see an ad or write-up in a PC magazine (and I subscribe to 
a
bunch). I don't know about UNIX mags, but perhaps someone else can
comment on this. Do a web search for "Runtime Revolution" and see just
how many "hits" you get for sites that advertise or promote PC
development tools or news on the PC front.

Thomas J. McGrath III
SCS
1000 Killarney Dr.
Pittsburgh, PA 15234
412-885-8541
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

RE: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Ken Ray]

> I thought Kevin dealt well with that one the other day. If 
> anyone has a 
> perception that Rev is a Mac tool, there's not much that can 
> be done to 
> help them. The MacWorld (UK?) reviewer who said that obviously had 
> spent little or no time writing the review. Nothing at RunRev's Web 
> site, in their marketing or, anywhere else that I've seen 
> conveys that 
> message.

Sorry, Dan, I respectfully disagree. Rev has had ads or been written
about in several Mac magazines (MacWorld UK, MacAddict, MacTech), but I
have yet to see an ad or write-up in a PC magazine (and I subscribe to a
bunch). I don't know about UNIX mags, but perhaps someone else can
comment on this. Do a web search for "Runtime Revolution" and see just
how many "hits" you get for sites that advertise or promote PC
development tools or news on the PC front. 

And look at the web site - the first page (after you get past the flags)
has the words "Mac", "MacWorld" and "MacUser" all over it. I *know* this
not the norm and is because we just came out of MacWorld, and Rev won an
Eddy in MacWorld magazine, but for people going to the site in the last
couple of months, it helps to form an opinion that Rev is primarily a
Mac tool.

And speaking of MacWorld, RunRev has been at conventions selling Rev,
but what kinds of conventions? Almost exclusively Mac conventions
(AFAIK). And once again, regardless for the reason for it, it adds to
the "buzz" about Rev as a Mac tool.

Additionally, Rev is very often compared to RealBasic - primarily known
as a Mac development environment - and that doesn't help its image one
bit. 

Finally, there are a handful of features that need to be in the product
(IMHO) to be "taken seriously" in the PC community (ActiveX support,
Win32 DLL access, etc.), which may be part of the reason it's not been
covered in the PC trades.

Look, I'm not trying to say that what RunRev's doing is not helping sell
boxes, but what I *am* saying is that the groundswell of commentary on
Rev is in the Mac community. And to shake that off and truly be a
cross-platform tool, RunRev will need to balance the Mac marketing with
marketing in the Windows and UNIX communities, when it is the
appropriate time to do so.

Just my $0.02,

Ken Ray
Sons of Thunder Software
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ 


___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Dar Scott]

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 05:36 PM, Dan Shafer wrote:

FWIW, I'm always, always, always going to argue against any change to 
xTalk syntax that makes the language one iota more complex than it is.
...
And those folks, as I said in my earlier post, are vanishingly 
unlikely to change languages to any other tool, particularly one which 
is accessible to those who have not "paid their dues" and become 
members of the "Programming Priesthood."
Though you avoided comment on making the language less complex than it 
already is, I'm reminded of how politicians use the slogan "no more 
taxes!" rather than "less taxes!"

It seems that to various degrees that we have paid our xTalk dues.  
There is a learning curve.

One of the ways xTalk is complicated is in all the exceptions.  A quick 
check showed 45 articles in the documentation containing "except" and 
261 containing "cannot".

Removing exceptions can simplify xTalk and enhance its power.

I think generalizations can also simplify xTalk and enhance its power.  
(I recognize that what I call simpler, others might call something 
else.)

For example, if 'f()' is a built-in function then we can apply it as 
'f()' or 'the f'.  By why limit this to built-in?  Why not allow this 
for custom functions, too?

Right now we have 'read' and 'read socket' using two different syntaxes 
and options.  Why not allow all capability for both?

I think there is lots of room for simplifying xTalk.

(And then that will leave room for adding what I want.)

Dar Scott





___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Pierre Sahores]

Le 9 févr. 04, à 01:50, Richard Gaskin a écrit :

Dar Scott wrote:

Where we possibly agree is that Transcript need not allow the user to
have memory leaks or to worry about pointer errors or to worry about
garbage collection of freeing things...0
...and the several million person-hours lost each year to bugs related 
to
the difference between "=" and "==". ;)
Right said ! Transcript is, as a the most usefull "VHLL syntax" ever 
seen, dedicated to help the designer's to win time... Only the low 
developers don't care about this kind of core features of the 
langage... See Java: the time token to declare const, vars and types 
(without errors) is a technical task only...

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores

100, rue de Paris
F - 77140 Nemours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

GSM:   +33 6 03 95 77 70
Pro:   +33 1 41 60 52 68
Dom:   +33 1 64 45 05 33
Fax:   +33 1 64 45 05 33
Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis
Applications et SGBD ACID SQL (WEB et PGI)
Penser et produire "delta de productivité"
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Pierre Sahores]

Le 8 févr. 04, à 22:29, Dar Scott a écrit :

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 01:15 PM, Frank Leahy wrote:

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)
Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a bit 
"beginner-ish".
I disagree.  This is archaic C syntax.  The '=' runs foul to math 
syntax.  C has been the ball and chain of programming language 
development and we should not willingly adopt its syntax.

The Xtalk syntax emphasizes the nature of variables as containers (in 
this language).

The '=' of Xtalk is friendly to the '=' of math.

Do we move to Montana woods to get away from zoning and then ask for 
zoning so city folks won't think us country hicks?

In the Old Testament is a story of how the Hebrews asked God for a 
king because all their neighbors had kings and they were embarrassed 
about not having one.

Dar Scott

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Agreed ! The English-like syntax of Transcript seem me to be one of the 
main parts of the XTalk paradigm : As long as Rev will support this 
VHLL feature, we will stay able to code transcript handlers, even 
without running computers : i like to feel me free to "think and code" 
cool handlers in the railroad or, even, in driving my car from home to 
the office... I can't, for my own, do, with the same success, such kind 
of things in using Rebol, PHP, Javascript or Java...

Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores

100, rue de Paris
F - 77140 Nemours
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

GSM:   +33 6 03 95 77 70
Pro:   +33 1 41 60 52 68
Dom:   +33 1 64 45 05 33
Fax:   +33 1 64 45 05 33
Inspection académique de Seine-Saint-Denis
Applications et SGBD ACID SQL (WEB et PGI)
Penser et produire "delta de productivité"
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Richard Gaskin]

Dar Scott wrote:

> Where we possibly agree is that Transcript need not allow the user to
> have memory leaks or to worry about pointer errors or to worry about
> garbage collection of freeing things...0

...and the several million person-hours lost each year to bugs related to
the difference between "=" and "==". ;)

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

xTalk Syntax (was Re: Andy's comments and positioning...)

[Dan Shafer]

FWIW, I'm always, always, always going to argue against any change to 
xTalk syntax that makes the language one iota more complex than it is. 
That's my prejudice and you need to know that up front (as if you 
didn't already).

Claude Lemmel said:

"It is the same to teach and to learn "the property of myObjetc" than 
"myObject.property". The argument xTalk is easy was true 10 years ago, 
no more today."

Interesting observation, Claude, but when I talk about the relative 
ease of learning and using Transcript and other xTalks vs. conventional 
languages, I'm not speaking of any particular small bit of syntax. I'm 
talking about the way it *feels*. In daily talk, we never say "this 
equals that" let alone "this=that". We say "this IS that" or we say 
"put this into that." There are literally dozens of such syntactical 
examples where xTalk emerges as easier than other languages. I've heard 
it 100 times. "I type in a command in the Message Window and it just 
works as I expect." Nobody *ever* says that about C++, C#, VB, or even 
REALBasic.

"the langage must evolve to allow both syntaxes, xTalk and ECMA"

Yes, but *only* if it allows both syntaxes. Over the years that I've 
watched languages evolve, they too often leave a syntax behind as they 
evolve to a new one. Dot notation isn't hard to learn, but it, again, 
is less natural than the very fluid human-language-style approach in 
Transcript. No matter how you slice it, "card43.button('OK').hide" is 
not as comfortable or fluid as "hide button "OK" of card 43."

"It is a hazardeous way to compare Flash and Revolution ; but it is 
easy to explain "Revolution is superior to Flash beacuse Revolution can 
embedd Flash"."

Reminds me of the old religious language wars between Prolog and LISP. 
The LISPers always thought they could win the battle by saying, smugly, 
"You could write Prolog in LISP but you could never write LISP in 
Prolog." I always wanted to shout, "But I don't *want* to write a 
freaking computer language!" To me, a linkage between Transcript and 
JavaScript that would allow me to wrapper calls to media objects in my 
favorite language (Transcript) would be more beneficial than the 
ability to embed Flash stuff in Rev.

"Revolution appears today as the tool for the Macintosh community."

I thought Kevin dealt well with that one the other day. If anyone has a 
perception that Rev is a Mac tool, there's not much that can be done to 
help them. The MacWorld (UK?) reviewer who said that obviously had 
spent little or no time writing the review. Nothing at RunRev's Web 
site, in their marketing or, anywhere else that I've seen conveys that 
message.

Frank Leahy offers:

"Yes, please, if anyone at RunRev is reading this, please add support 
for standard statement syntax such as

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)"
Sorry, Frank, but I just flat disagree. Those syntaxes -- in particular 
the far-too-cryptic and unreadably annoying "x += 1" -- are off-putting 
to all but professional programmers with backgrounds in C/C++/Java. And 
those folks, as I said in my earlier post, are vanishingly unlikely to 
change languages to any other tool, particularly one which is 
accessible to those who have not "paid their dues" and become members 
of the "Programming Priesthood." (Don't get me started!)

Dar Scott says, sarcastically and amusingly:

"Of course, if RunRev was to add ?: from C to support something _I_ 
want, then that would be OK.  ;-)"

Yeah. And that syntax found its way into an otherwise largely 
accessible language called JavaScript. Go figure.

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Dar Scott]

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 04:20 PM, Frank Leahy wrote:

x = y + z has nothing to do with C, it's standard mathematics notation.
The mathematics notation that comes to my mind is that "x = y + z" is a 
statement that is true or false in some context, not an assignment.

Every language that I've ever used, C, C++, Java, Eiffel, Perl, VB, 
ASP, PHP, Lingo -- with the singular exception of xTalk -- uses x = y 
+ z instead of "put".
Well, isn't this a very narrow group?

I thought Eiffel uses the (much superior) Pascal notation of ':='.

Transcript does use (in some rough sense) a semantics closer to being 
friendly to standard mathematics notation for "=" in this:

if x = y + z then ...

Basic does use "let ... = " which, though not C, has its own problems.

Some languages before the existence of Hypercard used "put ... into 
..." (I helped build one), so this is not strictly a Hypercard thing.

Some languages overload = to mean 'defined as' in some contexts and 
'equals' in others.  Mathematics is in the same situation and some 
folks use a different symbol to mean 'defined as'.

Where we possibly agree is that Transcript need not allow the user to 
have memory leaks or to worry about pointer errors or to worry about 
garbage collection of freeing things or the like.  Those we can leave 
to C programmers.

Dar Scott

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Frank Leahy]

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 10:58  PM, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 01:15 PM, Frank Leahy wrote:

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)
Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a bit
"beginner-ish".
I disagree.  This is archaic C syntax.  The '=' runs foul to math
syntax.  C has been the ball and chain of programming language
development and we should not willingly adopt its syntax.


x = y + z has nothing to do with C, it's standard mathematics notation. 
Every language that I've ever used, C, C++, Java, Eiffel, Perl, VB, 
ASP, PHP, Lingo -- with the singular exception of xTalk -- uses x = y + 
z instead of "put".

>Good grief...you're asking them to rewrite the parser for
>appearances? Wouldn't that add another layer of abstraction and slow
>it down? I think there are far more important issues than to make the
>language "look" like Basic and C.
Adding support for this syntax would require minimal changes to the 
parser (and if they're using something like YACC, no changes to the 
parser as they'll simply change the grammar input).  It will have zero 
impact on performance.

-- Frank

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Dar Scott]

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 01:15 PM, Frank Leahy wrote:

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)
Of course, if RunRev was to add ?: from C to support something _I_ 
want, then that would be OK.  ;-)

Dar Scott

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Stephen Quinn Barncard]

Good grief...you're asking them to rewrite the parser for 
appearances? Wouldn't that add another layer of abstraction and slow 
it down? I think there are far more important issues than to make the 
language "look" like Basic and C.

Yes, please, if anyone at RunRev is reading this, please add support 
for standard statement syntax such as

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)
Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a 
bit "beginner-ish".

-- Frank
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Dar Scott]

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 01:15 PM, Frank Leahy wrote:

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)
Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a bit 
"beginner-ish".
I disagree.  This is archaic C syntax.  The '=' runs foul to math 
syntax.  C has been the ball and chain of programming language 
development and we should not willingly adopt its syntax.

The Xtalk syntax emphasizes the nature of variables as containers (in 
this language).

The '=' of Xtalk is friendly to the '=' of math.

Do we move to Montana woods to get away from zoning and then ask for 
zoning so city folks won't think us country hicks?

In the Old Testament is a story of how the Hebrews asked God for a king 
because all their neighbors had kings and they were embarrassed about 
not having one.

Dar Scott

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Frank Leahy]

On Sunday, February 8, 2004, at 11:59  AM, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

- for non-english-speaking students, today, the "javascript" syntax = 
the
"flash" syntax = the "." syntax = the "ECMA" syntax = "the standard 
syntax
for programming" = is not more difficult than the xtalk syntax.
It is the same to teach and to learn "the property of myObjetc" than
"myObject.property". The argument xTalk is easy was true 10 years ago, 
no
more today.
I am sure of that even for 12-15 years french speaking kids ; i do not
know for english-speaking kids.
Yes, please, if anyone at RunRev is reading this, please add support 
for standard statement syntax such as

x = y + z (instead of put y + z into x)
x += 1 (instead of add 1 to x)
x.myProperty = foo (instead of set myProperty of x to foo)
Not supporting these standard statements make the language look a bit 
"beginner-ish".

-- Frank

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

From: Dan Shafer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
So the education market is crucial, but it takes years to show an
impact in the market.
My job is to produce educational CD-ROM, point of information and web 
sites. But i was appointed to teach multimedia programming for technicians 
(20-22 years old) and to post-graduate (23-25 years old) in the Sorbonne 
university in Paris.

Just my findings :

- my students didnt want to learn Metacard, they wanted to learn Director 
and Flash because they thought that they needed on their Curriculum the 
"best known professional tool". If we want to promote Revolution in these 
educational market, we need to say that Revolution is a very high level 
professional tool. All the arguments "it is also hobbyist oriented", "it 
is very easy to learn", "it is cheap" are counterproductive.
It is easy to explain to students that Director is an old fashioned 
product (Macromedia knows that and that's why they are relooking 
Director), but it is impossible not to teach Flash.

- Price was not a main concern.
The university had money to buy licences. From the university point of 
view, a good deal is "the professional product cost 1000$, that's OK, for 
the laboratory we need 10 copies with a 90% rebate". I guess that a 
classroom licence at 1000$ is better than 10 educational licences at 
100$ or 20 at 50$...
Anyway the students do not pay the license for their home computer ; they 
use "cracked" software ; the more expensive was the cracked software, the 
best for them ; they have better a 1000$ cracked software than a 50$ legal 
one. All microsoft, macromedia and adobe know that ; from a marketing 
point of view it is an investment to let students use cracked software 
because... as soon as they go in the professional life, the former 
students buy professional licences for the professional tools (in fact 
they at least pay for the upgrade of their cracked software :-).

- for non-english-speaking students, today, the "javascript" syntax = the 
"flash" syntax = the "." syntax = the "ECMA" syntax = "the standard syntax 
for programming" = is not more difficult than the xtalk syntax.
It is the same to teach and to learn "the property of myObjetc" than 
"myObject.property". The argument xTalk is easy was true 10 years ago, no 
more today.
I am sure of that even for 12-15 years french speaking kids ; i do not 
know for english-speaking kids.

- when we did produce real product, some of my students could experience 
and compare xTalk, Lingo and actionScript. For some projects they feel 
that Metacard was much more powerfull and much more easy than Flash ; on 
other projects they feel the contrary. Why ?

- as i said the problem is not the syntax. Today students have anyway to 
learn the "." syntax. And most of us on this list have to work with both 
syntaxes because we all need to use langages as javascript.

- the problem is the "object model". In the card metaphor, it is very 
simple to build cards and to put pre-existing objects on the cards. In 
Flash you can create your own objetcs (very fine and powerfull for a 
programmer !) but you are always confused between working with the object 
itself or with its instanciation on the screen.
The metaphor of Flash is much more "object oriented" than the metaphor of 
xCard. That's fine for the programmer, but designers or creators can 
express themselfs much easely with the card metaphor.
In fact the only students who preferred work with Flash than with Metacard 
where students who where more attracted by animation than by programming.
Some students where also happy with Flash because they downloaded sample 
animations from the web and just had to customize to their needs.

- if i had to design "the best creative environment for students from 12 
to 25", i would say :
* as a core engine MC or Revolution because they let express the 
creativity through an intuitive metaphor
* the xTalk set of objects, properties and functions because it is very 
powerfull, but the langage must evolve to allow both syntaxes, xTalk and 
ECMA
* Revolution must be able to embedd all medias = Quicktime (done), HTML 
(done via altBrowser.dll), Flash (native !), VideoPlayer, 3D player ; that 
could be done if Revolution can use all the plugin made for IExplorer and 
Mozilla.
* It is a hazardeous way to compare Flash and Revolution ; but it is easy 
to explain "Revolution is superior to Flash beacuse Revolution can embedd 
Flash".

Revolution appears today as the tool for the Macintosh community.
The argument "The Mac community was in difficulty since Hypercard died and 
because they need to deliver cross-platform : revolution is the solution" 
is a good one for MacWorld or AppleExpo, but not a good one for Windows or 
Linux users.

I would prefer an argument "Revolution, the professional tools what gives 
to you the best of the Mac, the best of Windows and the best of Linux".
It is easy to explain that Revolution give the "best of the Mac" from the 
*creativity* point of vi

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Richard Gaskin]

Judy Perry wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004, Richard Gaskin wrote:
> 
>> Excatly.   There are great opportunities in education markets, but perhaps
>> few for scripting products.
> 
> --Still, now that my tagamet's starting to dissolve, I still believe there
> is hope for Rev in education.  One byproduct of this dismal degree program
> was becoming acquainted with a fellow student who is a technology teacher
> at a local high school.
> 
> He invited me to be on his program advisory committee and wants to look
> about possibly adopting Rev over Flash for an intro. multimedia course...
> There is a Rev list member who I think has adopted it for his teacher
> training program...  But it will be an uphill battle...

Maybe not too uphill -- just consider the number of educators on this list.
I feel there's definitely a place, perhaps a strong one, for Rev in
education.

But it will take some research and development before Rev is able to
precisely nail the value proposition for the broader education market as
it's been doing for developers.

That's really my only point here:  it may well be worthwhile doing the long
research process needed to develop and market effectively for educators, but
not if it means losing sight of the past and current focus on professional
quality development which has been the product's award-winning strength thus
far (not to mention the source of most of the revenue and reputation that
would make such exploration into other markets possible).

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Judy Perry]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2004, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Excatly.   There are great opportunities in education markets, but perhaps
> few for scripting products.

--Still, now that my tagamet's starting to dissolve, I still believe there
is hope for Rev in education.  One byproduct of this dismal degree program
was becoming acquainted with a fellow student who is a technology teacher
at a local high school.

He invited me to be on his program advisory committee and wants to look
about possibly adopting Rev over Flash for an intro. multimedia course...
There is a Rev list member who I think has adopted it for his teacher
training program...  But it will be an uphill battle...

Judy

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Richard Gaskin]

Judy Perry wrote:

> But part of the reason why what you've said about educators (and
> probably alot of them in higher ed) is likely true is that they don't know
> diddly-squat about computers.  What's worse is that they don't want to
> know. As I keep hearing, "it's just a tool, like any other tool.  I don't
> need to know mechanics to drive my car so why should I know about hardware
> and software to implement computers in education?"  The people saying
> these things have Ph.D.'s in instructional design and technology.

Some of the toughest tech support I do is for HyperRESEARCH, popular among
academic sociology researchers.  I speak with a lot of doctorates and
candidates, and while they're all great sociology researchers their
computing experience varies broadly.  :)

...
> This is the problem.  After going through the trial-by-death of making two
> projects in Director and having received ZERO instruction on how to use
> it, these students-cum-teachers hate hate HATE authoring programs and
> revert back to the comfort zone of using PowerPoint and Producer.

Excatly.   There are great opportunities in education markets, but perhaps
few for scripting products.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Judy Perry]

Dan,

I'm gonna snip stuff I'm not going to reply to.  I'll start off by saying
that I'm no programmer at all.  I'm an educator.  I just bought your book
(okay, so that part's off-topic).

> So to me, you build interest and market momentum for a new programming
> tool by tapping into two markets: education and hobbyists. Both have
> the potential to become professionals. And both are larger than the
> total market of professional programmers *who are willing to consider a
> new tool*. That audience, as many companies have found out the hard
> way, is much smaller than it appears.

--Amen!

> That said, I also tired quickly as I did that study for Intel of
> educational institutions and educators who (not universally but often
> enough to come to my attention): (a) demanded free or low-cost stuff
> even though they recommend textbooks that cost hundreds of dollars,
> some of which the recommending profs wrote; (b) garnered substantial
> government grants whose proceeds could have been put to use in buying
> stuff for students rather than paying assistants and buying travel &
> entertainment to attend conferences; (c) demanded extensive tech
> support; (d) in general, acted as if the world owed them a living. I
> saw a lot of that. A lot.

True enough in most circumstances, I suspect...  I told my students not to
buy the textbook and instead buy Rev.  I get no grants, attend no
conferences, have no student assistants and try not to bother people too
much.

But part of the reason why what you've said about educators (and
probably alot of them in higher ed) is likely true is that they don't know
diddly-squat about computers.  What's worse is that they don't want to
know. As I keep hearing, "it's just a tool, like any other tool.  I don't
need to know mechanics to drive my car so why should I know about hardware
and software to implement computers in education?"  The people saying
these things have Ph.D.'s in instructional design and technology.

I know this because I'm currently finishing up my master's in
instructional design and technology.  Let me  start by about telling you
about some of my instructors.  The first one is given to making grandiose
claims about how the real digeratii all know that VBA stands for "Visual
Basic Analogue" and that Hypercard was "a cheap rip-off of Visual Basic".
He doesn't know what metadata is.  He thinks that the California
department of motor vehicles page is an outstanding example of webpage
design (http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dmv.htm -- okay, so it doesn't quite merit
an award on 'webpages that suck', but I think it's simply hideous
looking).  And he thinks he's a techie.  And he's so glaringly not.

The program's coordinator thinks that Microsoft FrontPage is (a) a
professional web development tool and (b) that it's cross-platform, and,
finally, (c) when I tell her it's not, she all but calls me a liar.

Our web developer instructor last term apparently doesn't grasp the fact
that not all web browsers are equally javascript compliant, and so
javascripts that ran in IE and Netscape but not in Safari were
automatically dismissed.  He also neglected to tell the class that all
these little asp things he was teaching us to do in FrontPage won't work
on all servers.  But at least we know that the proper document extension
for an asp webpage is asp (actual final exam question).

That's about all we've learned about actually using technology itself.
Instead, we've spent countless hours talking about what it feels like to
be a tree that feels bias (actual textbook example) and so on..

We'd have a better chance if credential-granting institutions required
actual computer literacy and authoring classes instead of one more class
on why girls can't finish tasks and need more virtual makeover software to
turn them into computer scientists (another actual example).  Their new
big thing is Microsoft Producer.

This is the problem.  After going through the trial-by-death of making two
projects in Director and having received ZERO instruction on how to use
it, these students-cum-teachers hate hate HATE authoring programs and
revert back to the comfort zone of using PowerPoint and Producer.  And
they feel pretty good about this because, as two of our instructors
actually published in a book, it's certainly an improvement over the
morning PA system's daily announcements' implementation of multimedia in
the classroom...

Pass the tagamet... :(

Judy

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Dan Shafer]

OK, now I'm going to step in and tick off some folks and probably 
generate yet another round of discussion here.

WARNING: Long and opinionated.

Full Disclosure: Even though I use Rev "professionally" I do not 
consider myself primarily a professional programmer. I'm a tinkerer 
first. It's nice I get paid to do this stuff but I'd do it even if I 
didn't get paid (though I'd work on different projects!). I'm focused 
on my long-time role as the champion of the Inventive User. I invented 
the term if not the concept. I could give a good rodent's behind about 
professional developers as a market because of two perceptions gained 
from three decades living in their world: (1) They resist, as a group, 
changing languages and tools once they've learned one and invested gobs 
of time in building up libraries, learning where the bodybugs are 
buried, and developed a rep; (2) It's difficult or impossible to form 
real support communities around them because of the need for them to 
treat lots of stuff as proprietary and their need to stay focused on 
their tasks as opposed to helping some other poor soul.

I allow the possibility -- even the probability -- that I'm wrong in my 
perceptions. But at least you know where I'm coming from.



Back in the days I was touting Smalltalk as the Language of the Gods, 
you couldn't get a serious developer to look at it. A tiny, tiny 
minority did. Of those who did, almost all of them would eventually 
agree it was superior to their current toolset. And they'd still refuse 
to change. "I'm six months behind on my C++ project," they'd say. "I'd 
love to be able to take the time now to switch and master Smalltalk but 
I can't afford the cut in pay."

So to me, you build interest and market momentum for a new programming 
tool by tapping into two markets: education and hobbyists. Both have 
the potential to become professionals. And both are larger than the 
total market of professional programmers *who are willing to consider a 
new tool*. That audience, as many companies have found out the hard 
way, is much smaller than it appears.

Oh, this is gonna get long. Sorry. But I hope you find it interesting 
if not worthwhile. A couple of decades ago, I was a marketing 
communications guru at Intel. My boss came to me. "Motorola keeps 
beating us at design-in decisions with clearly inferior technology. 
Find out why and tell me how we fix it." Didn't take me long. Motorola 
was providing free SDK's (System Design Kits) to any college 
engineering professor who wanted them for his students, and providing 
them for free. When those engineers graduated, they'd get to their 
first job. Their boss would say, "Here's your first project. It's eight 
months behind schedule. What tools do you want?" The newly minted 
engineer would open his or her briefcase, point to the Motorola SDK and 
say, "I already know how to use this." The boss would ask, "Will it do 
what we need to do here?" The new engineer would say "Yes." "Then order 
it," the boss would say.

Intel started a competing SDK program for colleges and universities. I 
helped build that program. In three years, Intel was out-performing 
Motorola in those situations again.

So the education market is crucial, but it takes years to show an 
impact in the market. Only a company with huge resources can afford to 
give *hardware* away to that group. But a software company? If you 
don't offer support and you deliver the product electronically, your 
costs to seed the education market -- other than marketing -- are 
vanishingly small.

That said, I also tired quickly as I did that study for Intel of 
educational institutions and educators who (not universally but often 
enough to come to my attention): (a) demanded free or low-cost stuff 
even though they recommend textbooks that cost hundreds of dollars, 
some of which the recommending profs wrote; (b) garnered substantial 
government grants whose proceeds could have been put to use in buying 
stuff for students rather than paying assistants and buying travel & 
entertainment to attend conferences; (c) demanded extensive tech 
support; (d) in general, acted as if the world owed them a living. I 
saw a lot of that. A lot.

So I say to educators: if Rev is a great tool for teaching your class, 
how about getting some budget for it so the company can still be in 
business when your students graduate and look for jobs? And I say to 
Rev, if you find educational markets where penetration has serious 
long-term potential value, discount the heck out of the product or 
offer it free. But don't let those activities divert any substantial 
resources from continuing to develop the tool us 
hobbyists-cum-professionals need and are willing to pay for.



~~
Dan Shafer, Revolutionary
Author of  "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
http://www.revolutionpros.com for more info
Available at Runtime Revolution Store (http://www.runrev.com/RevPress)
__

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[erik hansen]

--- Marty Billingsley
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> erik hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > --- Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Essentially what we are going to be doing
> more
> > > and more over the next few
> > > versions is to differentiate Express from
> > > Revolution.  So we have two
> > > product lines: "Revolution" which contains
> > > Studio and Enterprise aimed at
> > > professional developers; and Express which
> is
> > > aimed at the entry-level.  We
> > > have a number of ideas about how to best
> manage
> > > this differentiation in
> > > terms of feature sets, pricing, promotion
> and
> > > support.  We'll be introducing
> > > this over time - still preserving options
> for
> > > the existing user base, but
> > > more clearly differentiating where new
> users
> > > join the Revolution.
> >
> > for school labs, a version that is affordable
> > but allows students into the development
> > environment would be a great way to
> > promote programming skills.
> 
> What is the difference between Studio,
> Enterprise,
> and Express?  What is the definition of the
> "development
> environment" that Erik refers to?  As a teacher
> using RunRev
> in the classroom with middle school and high
> school students
> I might be able to give you an idea what
> students (and
> teachers) need.
> 
> I shy away from environments that are too easy,
> where
> too much is automated.  That's why I stuck with
> HyperCard
> for several years when many other teachers
> turned to
> HyperStudio: I was able to teach fundamental
> programming
> concepts with HC, which are buried too deep
> behind a simple
> user interface in HyperStudio.
> 
> That said, the RR user interface isn't as
> friendly toward
> students as it could be, but we're coping. :-)
> 
> I hope that a powerful RunRev will be
> affordable for the
> classroom.
> 
>- marty
> 
> --
> Marty Billingsley ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> The University of Chicago Laboratory Schools

(all above text is certified pertinant)

marty,

any RunRev/hardware/software lore to relate
relating to students in labs?

thanks,

=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Marty Billingsley]

erik hansen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Essentially what we are going to be doing more
> > and more over the next few
> > versions is to differentiate Express from
> > Revolution.  So we have two
> > product lines: "Revolution" which contains
> > Studio and Enterprise aimed at
> > professional developers; and Express which is
> > aimed at the entry-level.  We
> > have a number of ideas about how to best manage
> > this differentiation in
> > terms of feature sets, pricing, promotion and
> > support.  We'll be introducing
> > this over time - still preserving options for
> > the existing user base, but
> > more clearly differentiating where new users
> > join the Revolution.
>
> for school labs, a version that is affordable
> but allows students into the development
> environment would be a great way to
> promote programming skills.

What is the difference between Studio, Enterprise,
and Express?  What is the definition of the "development
environment" that Erik refers to?  As a teacher using RunRev
in the classroom with middle school and high school students
I might be able to give you an idea what students (and
teachers) need.

I shy away from environments that are too easy, where
too much is automated.  That's why I stuck with HyperCard
for several years when many other teachers turned to
HyperStudio: I was able to teach fundamental programming
concepts with HC, which are buried too deep behind a simple
user interface in HyperStudio.

That said, the RR user interface isn't as friendly toward
students as it could be, but we're coping. :-)

I hope that a powerful RunRev will be affordable for the
classroom.

   - marty

--
Marty Billingsley ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
The University of Chicago Laboratory Schools

"We are our choices"
   - Sartre
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[erik hansen]

--- "Jeanne A. E. DeVoto" 

> "start at the top". 
> Position yourself as a professional tool, then
> bring out a version 
> for hobbyists, and the latter product gets the
> perceptual benefit of 
> association with a pro-level product. 

look at Final Cut Pro.
the less expensive version is seen as
all you really need and high quality.

=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[erik hansen]

--- Kevin Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Essentially what we are going to be doing more
> and more over the next few
> versions is to differentiate Express from
> Revolution.  So we have two
> product lines: "Revolution" which contains
> Studio and Enterprise aimed at
> professional developers; and Express which is
> aimed at the entry-level.  We
> have a number of ideas about how to best manage
> this differentiation in
> terms of feature sets, pricing, promotion and
> support.  We'll be introducing
> this over time - still preserving options for
> the existing user base, but
> more clearly differentiating where new users
> join the Revolution.

for school labs, a version that is affordable
but allows students into the development
environment would be a great way to
promote programming skills.


=
[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.erikhansen.org

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 8:52 AM -0800 2/5/04, Richard Gaskin wrote:
Aiming the marketing message at pros also benefits sales to hobbyists:
while professionals won't touch a tool seen as aimed at hobbyists, every
hobbyist wants to feel they're using a tool capable of professional results.
Exactly. I've always felt that the hobbyist-level and 
professional-level markets can potentiate each other:

- Educators don't hesitate to teach programming with the hobbyist/edu 
version, since they don't need to worry that they're teaching 
students a language that they won't be able to use later on

- Hobbyists know they can move to a professional tool if and when 
they get more serious

- Professionals drive new features, which also benefits hobbyist users

- Hobbyists moving up the learning curve form the pool from which new pros come

But for this to work well, it's important to "start at the top". 
Position yourself as a professional tool, then bring out a version 
for hobbyists, and the latter product gets the perceptual benefit of 
association with a pro-level product. Do it the other way around - 
first position yourself as a hobbyist tool, then bring out a pro 
version - and you'll have trouble getting respect.

[channeling Aretha Franklin] ;-)
--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Andy Burns]

- Original Message - 
From: "Peter T. Evensen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "How to use Revolution" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 2:21 PM
Subject: Re: Andy's comments and positioning...


> You're not thinking C#, are you?   It isn't free and only runs on Windows.
>
> At 11:39 AM 2/5/2004, you wrote:
>
> >What was Micro$oft's free alternative to Java that ran on all OS's?
> >
> >Andy
>
> Peter T. Evensen
> http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com

I don't know what C# is. I just asked if Micro$oft had a free programming
language that ran on multiple OS's. vs. Sun's Java.

That's where I enjoy Revolution. HyperCard shoehorned me into only the Mac
community, like Cocoa is to OS/X. To see my software running on windows and
other OS's after so long brought tears of joy to my eyes.

All the best,

Andy

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Peter T. Evensen]

You're not thinking C#, are you?   It isn't free and only runs on Windows.

At 11:39 AM 2/5/2004, you wrote:

What was Micro$oft's free alternative to Java that ran on all OS's?

Andy
Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Jerry Daniels]

Oops... example two was supposed to be for education market, not 
hobbyists.

-JD

On Feb 5, 2004, at 12:24 PM, Jerry Daniels wrote:

Imagine that you have a pie chart with four slices, when you change 
the size of slice 1 you change the size of  slices 2 to 4 as well.

That's the four P's of marketing. I don't think we can talk about the 
Price without talking about the nature of the Product, the way it is 
distributed (Place) and the way it is Promoted.

Discussion of one P changes the other three. If the name changes, the 
way it's promoted, the nature of the product and it's price are 
affected. Here follows some very quick (and not necessarily accurate 
or thoughtful) examples:

EXAMPLE ONE (quick 'n' dirty):

Product: Professional development tool with documentation, support, 
third party add-ons, certification program for dev. and support
Place: web site download; printed docs shipped; support online; site 
for extra dev. tools
Price: $500-1,000; tech. add-ons extra; varying degrees of tech. 
support
Promotion: online adds; tech mags; sales/pr activities in other tech. 
forums and ours; tech. trade shows; tech. conferences

EXAMPLE TWO (quick 'n' dirty):

Product: development tool for hobbyists with documentation, support, 
third party educational add-ons and templates and curricula
Place: web site download; printed docs shipped; support online; site 
for extra tools
Price: $500 per classroom/99 per student/5,000 per school; educ. 
add-ons included; train-the-trainer for certified support
Promotion: online adds; educ. mags; sales/pr activities in educ. 
forums; educ. trade shows; conferences

 I think this discussion needs to be steered like this by someone at 
RR.

My 2 cents.

-Jerry

On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jerry Daniels wrote:

Maybe there are sales figures and cash flow to back the $99 
approach. I
don't know. Do people convert to more expensive licenses after 
getting
a taste for 99 dollars? Do ten times the number of people buy the $99
version than would have purchased the $995 version? Is $495 best?
People are buying miniPods for $249 and they have to wait for one! 
And
that's an entertainment item--a toy. This is a professional 
tool--MUCH
more than HyperCard.
Aiming the marketing message at pros also benefits sales to hobbyists:
while professionals won't touch a tool seen as aimed at hobbyists, 
every
hobbyist wants to feel they're using a tool capable of professional 
results.

If the positioning includes reference to how easy Rev is to build 
with, both
audiences will sit up and pay attention when the focus is on
professional-quality results.

In a noisy world it's hard being heard, let alone understood, so the 
message
must be well-honed and concise.  It's far easier to elevate the 
message and
keep it simple than to lower it and explain how you're not really 
lowering
it.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Jerry Daniels]

Imagine that you have a pie chart with four slices, when you change the 
size of slice 1 you change the size of  slices 2 to 4 as well.

That's the four P's of marketing. I don't think we can talk about the 
Price without talking about the nature of the Product, the way it is 
distributed (Place) and the way it is Promoted.

Discussion of one P changes the other three. If the name changes, the 
way it's promoted, the nature of the product and it's price are 
affected. Here follows some very quick (and not necessarily accurate or 
thoughtful) examples:

EXAMPLE ONE (quick 'n' dirty):

Product: Professional development tool with documentation, support, 
third party add-ons, certification program for dev. and support
Place: web site download; printed docs shipped; support online; site 
for extra dev. tools
Price: $500-1,000; tech. add-ons extra; varying degrees of tech. support
Promotion: online adds; tech mags; sales/pr activities in other tech. 
forums and ours; tech. trade shows; tech. conferences

EXAMPLE TWO (quick 'n' dirty):

Product: development tool for hobbyists with documentation, support, 
third party educational add-ons and templates and curricula
Place: web site download; printed docs shipped; support online; site 
for extra tools
Price: $500 per classroom/99 per student/5,000 per school; educ. 
add-ons included; train-the-trainer for certified support
Promotion: online adds; educ. mags; sales/pr activities in educ. 
forums; educ. trade shows; conferences

 I think this discussion needs to be steered like this by someone at RR.

My 2 cents.

-Jerry

On Feb 5, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

Jerry Daniels wrote:

Maybe there are sales figures and cash flow to back the $99 approach. 
I
don't know. Do people convert to more expensive licenses after getting
a taste for 99 dollars? Do ten times the number of people buy the $99
version than would have purchased the $995 version? Is $495 best?
People are buying miniPods for $249 and they have to wait for one! And
that's an entertainment item--a toy. This is a professional tool--MUCH
more than HyperCard.
Aiming the marketing message at pros also benefits sales to hobbyists:
while professionals won't touch a tool seen as aimed at hobbyists, 
every
hobbyist wants to feel they're using a tool capable of professional 
results.

If the positioning includes reference to how easy Rev is to build 
with, both
audiences will sit up and pay attention when the focus is on
professional-quality results.

In a noisy world it's hard being heard, let alone understood, so the 
message
must be well-honed and concise.  It's far easier to elevate the 
message and
keep it simple than to lower it and explain how you're not really 
lowering
it.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Andy Burns]

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "How to use Revolution" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Andy's comments and positioning...


> Andy Burns wrote:
>
> > How did Sun benefit from Java, giving it away as a free programming
> > language?
>
> I don't believe the benefit is monetary. Java is valuable to Sun for
> strategic reasons, a major de-facto standard not under Micro$oft's
control.
>
> -- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Media Corporation
>  ___
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com
>

What was Micro$oft's free alternative to Java that ran on all OS's?

Andy

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Richard Gaskin]

Andy Burns wrote:

> How did Sun benefit from Java, giving it away as a free programming
> language? 

I don't believe the benefit is monetary. Java is valuable to Sun for
strategic reasons, a major de-facto standard not under Micro$oft's control.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Andy Burns]

- Original Message - 
From: "Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "How to use Revolution" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: Andy's comments and positioning...


> Jerry Daniels wrote:
>
> > Maybe there are sales figures and cash flow to back the $99 approach. I
> > don't know. Do people convert to more expensive licenses after getting
> > a taste for 99 dollars? Do ten times the number of people buy the $99
> > version than would have purchased the $995 version? Is $495 best?
> > People are buying miniPods for $249 and they have to wait for one! And
> > that's an entertainment item--a toy. This is a professional tool--MUCH
> > more than HyperCard.
>
> Aiming the marketing message at pros also benefits sales to hobbyists:
> while professionals won't touch a tool seen as aimed at hobbyists, every
> hobbyist wants to feel they're using a tool capable of professional
results.
>
> If the positioning includes reference to how easy Rev is to build with,
both
> audiences will sit up and pay attention when the focus is on
> professional-quality results.
>
> In a noisy world it's hard being heard, let alone understood, so the
message
> must be well-honed and concise.  It's far easier to elevate the message
and
> keep it simple than to lower it and explain how you're not really lowering
> it.
>
> -- 
>  Richard Gaskin
>  Fourth World Media Corporation
>  ___
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com
>


I see I sparked some interest in RR's marketing.

I never programmed in C or Java. I programmed in HyperCard, which produced
quality results but not being a proficient programmer, I loved HyperCard.
All of a sudden I could produce something that I needed, even with it's
limitations.

Revolution is a powerful programming environment. If it was cheap enough to
be available to schools (K-12 and beyond), wouldn't that increase sales by
some factor?

Granted, behind the scenes at RunRev, the cost of experts to produce this
wonderful software may be cost prohibitive at $99.99 for a time, but sales
would eventually overshadow the cost of RunRev's development and advertising
budget, wouldn't it?

I paid for RunRev and didn't blink an eye doing so, as I could afford it,
being retired and a one man band.

How did Sun benefit from Java, giving it away as a free programming
language? It's not an easy language when you're just beginning, agreed. They
had another vision.

Just thinking out loud.

All the best,

Andy



___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Richard Gaskin]

Jerry Daniels wrote:

> Maybe there are sales figures and cash flow to back the $99 approach. I
> don't know. Do people convert to more expensive licenses after getting
> a taste for 99 dollars? Do ten times the number of people buy the $99
> version than would have purchased the $995 version? Is $495 best?
> People are buying miniPods for $249 and they have to wait for one! And
> that's an entertainment item--a toy. This is a professional tool--MUCH
> more than HyperCard.

Aiming the marketing message at pros also benefits sales to hobbyists:
while professionals won't touch a tool seen as aimed at hobbyists, every
hobbyist wants to feel they're using a tool capable of professional results.

If the positioning includes reference to how easy Rev is to build with, both
audiences will sit up and pay attention when the focus is on
professional-quality results.

In a noisy world it's hard being heard, let alone understood, so the message
must be well-honed and concise.  It's far easier to elevate the message and
keep it simple than to lower it and explain how you're not really lowering
it.

-- 
 Richard Gaskin 
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 ___
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.FourthWorld.com

___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Rob Cozens]

All in all my advice is don't get angry at people who simply can't see the
forest for the trees.  As my dad used to say to me:  "Don't tell me.  Show
me."
Or as a wise person once said, "Never suspect malice if ignorance is 
a possibility."  :{`)
--

Rob Cozens
CCW, Serendipity Software Company
http://www.oenolog.net/who.htm
"And I, which was two fooles, do so grow three;
Who are a little wise, the best fooles bee."
from "The Triple Foole" by John Donne (1572-1631)
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Jerry Daniels]

As I recall there are four P's in marketing: Product, Price, Place and 
Promotion. These four work together dynamically and not in isolation. 
Any decision about price has to consider the company's ability to 
promote the product and place (distribute) it in a consumer's hot 
little hands.

How these four P's work together determines how the product is 
positioned in the consumer's mind. Good positioning will make someone 
think the product is a good deal for $xxx and that they have to have it 
NOW. Positioning is, of course, more than a statement.

I don't see how a company can thrive supporting ALL these platforms and 
sell a product for $99 unless they are marketing the hell out of it and 
are well funded to do so.

Maybe there are sales figures and cash flow to back the $99 approach. I 
don't know. Do people convert to more expensive licenses after getting 
a taste for 99 dollars? Do ten times the number of people buy the $99 
version than would have purchased the $995 version? Is $495 best? 
People are buying miniPods for $249 and they have to wait for one! And 
that's an entertainment item--a toy. This is a professional tool--MUCH 
more than HyperCard.

Those are some of my thoughts, anyway.

-Jerry

On Feb 4, 2004, at 3:35 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

I like to think of RR as a *real development tool*, not as a HyperCard 
clone
or newbie play toy. Unfortunately, I believe Andy thinks of it more as 
a
HyperCard clone...primarily because of positioning.

What if RR is positioned as the ubiquitous RAD programming environment 
for
cross platform development -- surpassing in both speed and performance 
other
tools such as JAVA, QT, VB, etc.? I think this is a valid positioning
statement. Now to turn around and say "and it's only $99" and your Mom 
can
use it, certainly doesn't seem to back this up.

Which brings us to the real problem...positioning. RR can be 
positioned as a
'HyperCard clone' for the inventive user OR as a full-featured 
development
tool for professionals can use to build commercial and enterprise
applications.

There have been a few comments lately about Rev pricing...

I think Rev's pricing is right on the money. Users can download a free
version which they can try out for 30 days. Of course the HyperCard 
clone
crowd wants a version for $99 bucks. That is where their expectation 
is set
(just like Andy). After all, Apple used to 'give it away.'

But, developers whose business depends on RR, are used to paying much 
more
for professional tools. Just look at other cross-platform development
suites. By comparison, RR is a steal.

One of the biggest challenges for Xtalk companies is their ability to 
stay
funded and alive. I believe in RR as a professional development tool. 
And,
as a professional developer, I can make money with it, even if it does 
cost
hundreds of dollars.

Many of you already know this, but it's an interesting story 
nonetheless.
Last year, I wrote ButtonGadget in about 3 weeks of spare time. I sold 
in on
my website using PayPal for $20 a copy. In less than one year, I 
bought two
plasma screen TV's with the profits. The program was written all in 
native
Transcript. No DLL's nor externals. As a VB programmer, I can tell you 
there
is NO WAY I could have developed such a product so rapidly, in fact, I
wouldn't have developed ButtonGadget in either VB or C++ as IMO the 
return
of time vs revenue would've been too risky.

The reason I mention this is to demonstrate the incredible revenue 
potential
for products developed with this product. I also could mention we're
currently using RR to build a very large Enterprise Application for 
Homeland
Security. It scales as well - from ButtonGadget to Enterprise Content
Management Systems connected to huge databases. $99 bucks just doesn't 
cash
in on it's value to me. And I really want to see Revolution do well, 
so I
continue to be able to write these cool programs!

-Chipp



___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Alex Rice]

On Feb 4, 2004, at 3:10 PM, Mark Powell wrote:

 If I say "Revolution", they look they're being lobbied by Dennis 
Kucinich.  Don't let the door hit you in the butt.
LOL it's true. And they scoff "Revolution? Where did we get this John 
Lennon wannabe?"

But with a 30 day eval. license, one can create a demo/mockup/prototype 
of just about any app conceivable. What manager can turn down 
productivity like that, coupled with blazing speed, single file 
executables, and 12 different platforms? It practically sells itself, 
provided the developers are willing to take some risk and dive in and 
learn.

If management still won't buy it and they want to stick with VB6 or 
VC++ forever then they are foot-dragging status-quo-loving coneheads 
and you should go over their head :-)

While writing this I have in mind this article, about a different 
product, but it's about early adopters and getting the edge:



"""
...	I also found it interesting that this CEO came to meet with us 
personally, rather than just dispatching someone from his IT 
department.  "I have found that IT departments often don't like 
change," he said.  "That's why I'm here.  I have had enough with the 
status quo treatment we get from Microsoft, and I want to see first 
hand if it's time for a change.  Our company prides itself on early 
adoption of any innovation which can give us an edge over our 
competition--we're known for that.  I'm starting to hear more and more 
that Linux could very well be such an innovation, so I want to see for 
myself if it is." 
"""

--
Alex Rice | Mindlube Software | http://mindlube.com


___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Ian Wood]

On 4 Feb 2004, at 21:35, Chipp Walters wrote:

Many of you already know this, but it's an interesting story 
nonetheless.
Last year, I wrote ButtonGadget in about 3 weeks of spare time. I sold 
in on
my website using PayPal for $20 a copy. In less than one year, I 
bought two
plasma screen TV's with the profits. The program was written all in 
native
Transcript. No DLL's nor externals. As a VB programmer, I can tell you 
there
is NO WAY I could have developed such a product so rapidly, in fact, I
wouldn't have developed ButtonGadget in either VB or C++ as IMO the 
return
of time vs revenue would've been too risky.

The reason I mention this is to demonstrate the incredible revenue 
potential
for products developed with this product. I also could mention we're
currently using RR to build a very large Enterprise Application for 
Homeland
Security. It scales as well - from ButtonGadget to Enterprise Content
Management Systems connected to huge databases. $99 bucks just doesn't 
cash
in on it's value to me. And I really want to see Revolution do well, 
so I
continue to be able to write these cool programs!

On a much smaller scale, I wrote QTVR2MOV in a couple of weeks with a 
cover CD copy of Rev 1.1.1.  This is an app with very a limited market 
(panoramic photographers who want video sequences from their QTVR 
panoramas), as with ButtonGadget this sells through PayPal for $25 (was 
$15 but that was a bit too cheap!).  Even so, four months later I have 
a copy of Rev 2.1 purchased solely through its sales, plus some change.

Having looked at supposedly easy alternatives like Applescript Studio & 
Cocoa, Revolution was a revelation!  Hugely cross-platform and so easy 
to use that you get drawn into fiddling just for the sake of finding 
out more about its strengths.

As Chipp says, it scales well.  I am now planning the media management, 
archiving & data-input system for an ecclesiastical photography project 
that will involve over 60,000 photos, panoramas, videos & audio 
samples.  This should automatically generate XML files that will drive 
a QuickTime interface for the web.

Ian

P.S. For a sneak peek at the QT interface go to:
http://www.ianjameswood.co.uk/lsp/
600+ churches in 3-4 years, if funding comes through.
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Re: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Thomas McGrath III]

AMEN

On Feb 4, 2004, at 5:10 PM, Mark Powell wrote:
All in all my advice is don't get angry at people who simply can't see 
the
forest for the trees.  As my dad used to say to me:  "Don't tell me.  
Show
me."  Revolution needs compelling apps whose appearance and 
functionality
don't telegraph how they were developed.

Mark Powell
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

Thomas J. McGrath III
SCS
1000 Killarney Dr.
Pittsburgh, PA 15234
412-885-8541
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution

RE: Andy's comments and positioning...

[Mark Powell]

Being a veteran of HyperCard wars at Apple, I could not agree more with
Chipp's assessment.  It is perception and (in part) simple name recognition.

Case in point, I go into my management and say "I need x dollars budget to
develop this utility".  "What are you developing in?" they ask.  If I say
C++ or VB, they stroke their metaphorical chins and with gravitas,
acknowledge regretfully the necessity of such an outlay.  If I say
"Revolution", they look they're being lobbied by Dennis Kucinich.  Don't let
the door hit you in the butt.  It is a comfort factor.

I think the positioning angle (I am very sorry to say), demands that Rev
strive to be more agnostic as far as Mac vs. Wintel is concerned.  The few
people I have spoken to who have ever heard of Revolution think of it as a
Macintosh-only thing.  That turns off a heckuva lot of potential users
before they even have a chance to learn any better.

Other things that developers can adopt are what I call placebo features,
whose presence is solely to soothe a user into feeling that their app has
been developed in a "professional" SDE.  One example is the cursor set (that
I believe Chipp distributes) that turns the telltale hand cursor into the
more familiar OS like cursor.  It is without reason from a purist's point of
view, but so if wearing a business suit to board meeting.  Perception.

All in all my advice is don't get angry at people who simply can't see the
forest for the trees.  As my dad used to say to me:  "Don't tell me.  Show
me."  Revolution needs compelling apps whose appearance and functionality
don't telegraph how they were developed.

Mark Powell
___
use-revolution mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution