Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
How about a graduate research project comparing the development productivity with Revolution over Java (let's say). This could get Revolution noticed in the academic circles and perhaps spawn more interested and research. At 11:03 PM 9/7/2004, you wrote: Still, I think that the educators on this list aught to band up and figure out ways to evangelize the product. It costs us little (I think) and helps us justify our tool of choice. We somehow have to get publication notice -- both refereed and 'popular' press reviews, articles, etc. written and published. I need to work on my own Rev 'case study' for the company... and others do too. It would be good if we could all focus on a slightly different facet (for example, as my class is largely CS-majors, focus on producing proof of concept game dev stuff in short order; perhaps Devin @ BYU could take the newbie/humanities angle... Marty can do the middle-school intro to programming...). Aren't I great for coming up with work for *other* folks? @;-) Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 24-hour recorded info hotline: 1-800-624-7671 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:04:12 -0500, Peter T. Evensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about a graduate research project comparing the development productivity with Revolution over Java (let's say). This could get Revolution noticed in the academic circles and perhaps spawn more interested and research. At 11:03 PM 9/7/2004, you wrote: We somehow have to get publication notice -- both refereed and 'popular' press reviews, articles, etc. written and published. I'm a new Revolution 2.5 user having bought it a few days ago. I had never heard of it before (and I work for a company that makes programming languages!) but I found the free version given away with PC Plus magazine here in the UK this month. I liked the syntax and cross-platform aspects so purchased a copy. PC Plus said they will be running a Masterclass series on it starting next issue, so that should be several months of free publicity, but beyond that is anyones guess... Cheers, Rich -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Le 8 sept. 04, à 18:04, Peter T. Evensen a écrit : How about a graduate research project comparing the development productivity with Revolution over Java (let's say). This could get Revolution noticed in the academic circles and perhaps spawn more interested and research. Rev and Tomcat are going to go head to head with good results in about serving dynamic html contents including databases connections but Rev will win the competition in about the time needed to develop the apps and the amount of connections served peer second (linux issue). In about EAI stuffs, Rev will, against the EJB2 servers (JBOSS, WebSphere, WebLogic,...), win height the hand in any case ! So this graduate research project would, surelly be a good thing... At 11:03 PM 9/7/2004, you wrote: Still, I think that the educators on this list aught to band up and figure out ways to evangelize the product. It costs us little (I think) and helps us justify our tool of choice. We somehow have to get publication notice -- both refereed and 'popular' press reviews, articles, etc. written and published. I need to work on my own Rev 'case study' for the company... and others do too. It would be good if we could all focus on a slightly different facet (for example, as my class is largely CS-majors, focus on producing proof of concept game dev stuff in short order; perhaps Devin @ BYU could take the newbie/humanities angle... Marty can do the middle-school intro to programming...). Aren't I great for coming up with work for *other* folks? @;-) Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 24-hour recorded info hotline: 1-800-624-7671 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Bien cordialement, Pierre Sahores 100, rue de Paris F - 77140 Nemours [EMAIL PROTECTED] GSM: +33 6 03 95 77 70 Pro: +33 1 64 45 05 33 Fax: +33 1 64 45 05 33 WEB/EAI services ACID DB over IP Mutualiser les deltas de productivité ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Yeah, I'm wrting the Masterclass series. First one is in the hopper, second one is for the following issue. They're semi-monthly. Glad to hear they sold at least one copy already! dan On Sep 8, 2004, at 9:26 AM, Richard Davey wrote: On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 11:04:12 -0500, Peter T. Evensen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How about a graduate research project comparing the development productivity with Revolution over Java (let's say). This could get Revolution noticed in the academic circles and perhaps spawn more interested and research. At 11:03 PM 9/7/2004, you wrote: We somehow have to get publication notice -- both refereed and 'popular' press reviews, articles, etc. written and published. I'm a new Revolution 2.5 user having bought it a few days ago. I had never heard of it before (and I work for a company that makes programming languages!) but I found the free version given away with PC Plus magazine here in the UK this month. I liked the syntax and cross-platform aspects so purchased a copy. PC Plus said they will be running a Masterclass series on it starting next issue, so that should be several months of free publicity, but beyond that is anyones guess... Cheers, Rich -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
A company buys one tool, not millions of chips. A company buys a million licenses for each tool. Nope. That's just wrong. With rev, a company with millions of customers only buys one copy of the program. Don't tell me I'm wrong unless you understand my point. That's not what I am talking about, Dan. A company that builds software has to buy a license for every programmer. Depending on the type of software, schools buy licenses based on (a) the number of computers, (b) the number of students and teachers who use the software, or (c) the number of students and teachers who use the computers. If Microsoft were to start using Rev to do their programming exclusively, they would be buying a ton of Rev licenses tomorrow. Unlikely, true, but a few large software development firms using Rev would boost sales dramatically. New York City School District buying licenses for student classes would do the same. Do you know why today's high school History texts have so much info on Texas and California in them, while only a paragraph or two on Lincoln? Is it because so much History happens in those two states? Nope. It is because Texas and California have statewide textbook adoption. Publishers know how big the education market is, and they are getting filthy rich as a result. J. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 7, 2004, at 1:47 PM, j wrote: A company buys one tool, not millions of chips. A company buys a million licenses for each tool. Nope. That's just wrong. With rev, a company with millions of customers only buys one copy of the program. Don't tell me I'm wrong unless you understand my point. That's not what I am talking about, Dan. Fair enough. I was a bit more abrupt and general in my response than I normally would be. This discussion is one I've had 100 times over the years and I guess I just grew weary of it. Let me just summarize my position briefly. 1. Aside from products created specifically for the education market and intended for use in administration and management, that market is very difficult to crack and in the main not very profitable. 2. Development tools are a particularly difficult sell into the education market because of the wide availability of free, Open Source tools. 3. Educators often (not always) feel they are on a sort of mission that entitles them to reduced pricing and liberal licensing enforcement. And some educators who wouldn't say that *would* argue that their budgets are small and they can't afford to pay standard rates for software, particularly development tools. 4. Nonetheless, the education market *can* be a good, profitable market for companies with the staying power and the perspicacity to pursue the market and establish a toehold. At the end of the day, I just don't think it's a good place for RunRev to place many bets given all that's on its plate. The good news (for folks in the education space at least) is that I don't get a vote. Dan A company that builds software has to buy a license for every programmer. Depending on the type of software, schools buy licenses based on (a) the number of computers, (b) the number of students and teachers who use the software, or (c) the number of students and teachers who use the computers. If Microsoft were to start using Rev to do their programming exclusively, they would be buying a ton of Rev licenses tomorrow. Unlikely, true, but a few large software development firms using Rev would boost sales dramatically. New York City School District buying licenses for student classes would do the same. Do you know why today's high school History texts have so much info on Texas and California in them, while only a paragraph or two on Lincoln? Is it because so much History happens in those two states? Nope. It is because Texas and California have statewide textbook adoption. Publishers know how big the education market is, and they are getting filthy rich as a result. J. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: 2. Development tools are a particularly difficult sell into the education market because of the wide availability of free, Open Source tools. --In our case, it's even worse. On the educational end, we eschew the free, open source dev tools in favor of the free stuff dumped on us by M$... We just started an MS in software engineering as an online degree program (a nightmare in itself, but I digress). So, given that our sysAdmin has configured/installed the free, open source Moodle course delivery system, what do you think our CS educators are using? Yup. Blackboard which (a) sucks, (b) isn't free, and (c) isn't under our department's control. 3. Educators often (not always) feel they are on a sort of mission that entitles them to reduced pricing and liberal licensing enforcement. And some educators who wouldn't say that *would* argue that their budgets are small and they can't afford to pay standard rates for software, particularly development tools. --Do you argue that this is an unreasonable position? If I were working in a SW development house, would I be expected to buy my own dev tools? Ever since Rev announced the first HC cross-grade pricing, I've paid for my annual license despite the fact that I don't sell a dime's worth of software, only use it in-class, and am not reimbursed by my department. I don't expect Rev to give it to me free, but given that I am doing free evangelization for their product and am not making any profit from using their product, a price reduction strikes me as not unreasonable. snip The good news (for folks in the education space at least) is that I don't get a vote. --I suspect your vote carries the same or more weight than does mine ;-) Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 7, 2004, at 6:20 PM, Judy Perry wrote: On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: 3. Educators often (not always) feel they are on a sort of mission that entitles them to reduced pricing and liberal licensing enforcement. And some educators who wouldn't say that *would* argue that their budgets are small and they can't afford to pay standard rates for software, particularly development tools. --Do you argue that this is an unreasonable position? If I were working in a SW development house, would I be expected to buy my own dev tools? Ever since Rev announced the first HC cross-grade pricing, I've paid for my annual license despite the fact that I don't sell a dime's worth of software, only use it in-class, and am not reimbursed by my department. I don't expect Rev to give it to me free, but given that I am doing free evangelization for their product and am not making any profit from using their product, a price reduction strikes me as not unreasonable. I'm not sure I'd consider it unreasonable so much as unprofitable, at least in the near term. I used to own a development tools company, so I have a bit of background here. When anyone thinks he or she has a legitimate reason to request a reduced price -- and I've heard some whoppers over the years! -- they ask for it. I spent way too much time discussing and negotiating these things. The problem, I submit, is with the fact that dedicated educators can't get their schools to buy the right stuff because those schools are spending way too much money on overpriced textbooks and top-heavy administrative groups. Furthermore, I have a few friends who are professors and in their more lucid moments, they freely admit that the grants they get for specific kinds of research can pay for LOTS of expensive tools. They beg for table scraps not because they need them but because that saves them money to buy other tools whose publishers won't cave on the educational discount front. You know, as I reflect on all this, I think the bottom line is simple. Education is a very specialized market with very specialized needs, demands, and expectations. Companies that focus their marketing energies there might do well. Big companies who can focus budget there might do well. Small companies who are not focused exclusively or nearly so on education get eaten alive more often than they succeed. snip The good news (for folks in the education space at least) is that I don't get a vote. --I suspect your vote carries the same or more weight than does mine ;-) Sadly true. Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Tue, 7 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: snip The problem, I submit, is with the fact that dedicated educators can't get their schools to buy the right stuff because those schools are spending way too much money on overpriced textbooks and top-heavy administrative groups. --Amen, amen, and, oh, by the way, AMEN! How I could go on and on about this!! :( fwiw, I eschew a formal textbook in favor of reprinted articles here and there, ACM articles that are PDF'd... and, oh, buying Rev! Furthermore, I have a few friends who are professors and in their more lucid moments, they freely admit that the grants they get for specific kinds of research can pay for LOTS of expensive tools. They beg for table scraps not because they need them but because that saves them money to buy other tools whose publishers won't cave on the educational discount front. --Hmmm... don't get no stinkin' grants! I begs for table scraps 'cause I needs them... Still, I think that the educators on this list aught to band up and figure out ways to evangelize the product. It costs us little (I think) and helps us justify our tool of choice. We somehow have to get publication notice -- both refereed and 'popular' press reviews, articles, etc. written and published. I need to work on my own Rev 'case study' for the company... and others do too. It would be good if we could all focus on a slightly different facet (for example, as my class is largely CS-majors, focus on producing proof of concept game dev stuff in short order; perhaps Devin @ BYU could take the newbie/humanities angle... Marty can do the middle-school intro to programming...). Aren't I great for coming up with work for *other* folks? @;-) Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Dan Shafer wrote: You know, as I reflect on all this, I think the bottom line is simple. Education is a very specialized market with very specialized needs, demands, and expectations. Companies that focus their marketing energies there might do well. Big companies who can focus budget there might do well. Small companies who are not focused exclusively or nearly so on education get eaten alive more often than they succeed. Excellent point Dan. When I was CEO at Human Code, we looked hard at breaking into the Education market. At the time, we did about $2M in quarterly sales and figured we could double it with the right entries into Education-- as we focussed primarily on Edutainment. After a series of studies, it appeared the risk too great trying to 'break-in' quickly. Only a lengthy and determined marketing effort using a 'swing for the fences' strategy was feasible, ultimately dissuading us at that time. At a later date and with greater funding and a less agressive approach, we did step lightly into the Education market with mixed results. Suffice to say, I doubt RR has the resources for such a strategy, as the marketing and networking costs are even higher today than they were back then. best, Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Judy Perry wrote: Still, I think that the educators on this list aught to band up and figure out ways to evangelize the product. Agreed wholeheartedly. While there has been much talk of abstractions like the inventive user, sooner or later with functional goods like software it comes down to specific tasks, and the question of whether a software will help address a task better than another solution. For the design phase of a product, WHO a customer is is less important than WHAT that customer does. For all the talk of capturing some of the HyperCard feel-good, even a cursory critical task analysis would push a vendor toward edu: in my experience teaching HyperTalk from 1987 to 1994 I found that while the tool was indeed used for a very broad range of tasks, the majority of usages were related to education in one form or another. If one were inclined to pursue a form of consumer-level scripting tool (personally I think the most substantial window for that sort of thing closed a long time ago, but we needn't get into that), it would be risky to ignore the primary lesson HyperCard offered us all: looking at specific tasks performed with it we find education stood about above most, if not all, others. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation __ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
You are saying that Inspiration is smaller than rev?? I don't know that size matters here (let's please avoid the opportunity for less-than-professional puns with that g). There are big companies that fail, and small companies that remain highly profitable for years and let their founders retire early. The core mission of maintaining and enhancing the engine for the many companies whose livelihood depends on it requires only a very few people, and the fewer there are the more profit there is to go around. There's enough downstream money in the community even as it stands today to keep the engine alive forever. Ambitions beyond that core mission are a subjective matter to be decided solely by the current owner of the engine. I'm not concerned with whether RunRev is a big company or a small one. I like Kevin and I hope his company is enormously profitable, but that has less to do with being big or small than simply being the *right* size for the mission at hand. As a developer my only concern is for the viability of the engine, and with the downstream money circulating throughout the development economy I have no doubt the engine will be available as long as it continues to provide unbeatable ROI for myself, my clients, and other developers. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Keith, Sorry to hear you say this. But of course you have your reasons. FYI, My understanding is that both the Dreamcard and Revolution demos are exactly the same with the following exceptions: 1) Dreamcard has a 10-hour trial limit; Rev has a 30-day trial limit 2) Dreamcard has a 'Dreamcard' splash screen on startup, whereas Rev has a 'Revolution' splash screen on startup Other than that, they are identical. Now, if you were to purchase Rev, then you can build your own standalones (kinda like SuperCard), whereas if you purchase the less expensive Dreamcard, you'll need to bundle the player (kinda like HyperCard). But, you can always upgrade from Dreamcard to Revolution if you want to make a standalone of your Dreamcard stack. There are probably many reasons for creating the new Dreamcard product. As a professional user, I am happy RR has decided to separate the two products as IMO, there are both pluses and minuses for a product like Dreamcard. Plus: Easy to use and get started with, recognizable 'card' metaphor with Apple folks. Minus: Association with Hypercard and poorly designed stacks can create a 'stigma' for professional developers (this happened with my previous company and Director a few years ago). In anycase, there are two products, but one IDE. While RealBasic is a fine programming environment, there are many here with RB experience who prefer RR. In fact, Andre Garzia is an experienced RB users and a big proponent of RR. I suggest you consider contacting him for some comparison questions. Also, Geoff Canyon created a RB/RR wiki a year or so ago which may lend further insight (anyone know a link). If you have any other questions, please ask :-) best, Chipp Walters Altuit, Inc. Keith Hutchison wrote: Frankly the ten hour issue and the new differentiation between Dreamcard and Runtime Revolution scared us off. We are not ranting, just not (currently) buying. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Thanks. On Friday, September 3, 2004, at 02:36 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: Keith, Sorry to hear you say this. But of course you have your reasons. FYI, My understanding is that both the Dreamcard and Revolution demos are exactly the same with the following exceptions: 1) Dreamcard has a 10-hour trial limit; Rev has a 30-day trial limit 2) Dreamcard has a 'Dreamcard' splash screen on startup, whereas Rev has a 'Revolution' splash screen on startup Other than that, they are identical. Now, if you were to purchase Rev, then you can build your own standalones (kinda like SuperCard), whereas if you purchase the less expensive Dreamcard, you'll need to bundle the player (kinda like HyperCard). But, you can always upgrade from Dreamcard to Revolution if you want to make a standalone of your Dreamcard stack. There are probably many reasons for creating the new Dreamcard product. As a professional user, I am happy RR has decided to separate the two products as IMO, there are both pluses and minuses for a product like Dreamcard. Plus: Easy to use and get started with, recognizable 'card' metaphor with Apple folks. Minus: Association with Hypercard and poorly designed stacks can create a 'stigma' for professional developers (this happened with my previous company and Director a few years ago). In anycase, there are two products, but one IDE. While RealBasic is a fine programming environment, there are many here with RB experience who prefer RR. In fact, Andre Garzia is an experienced RB users and a big proponent of RR. I suggest you consider contacting him for some comparison questions. Also, Geoff Canyon created a RB/RR wiki a year or so ago which may lend further insight (anyone know a link). If you have any other questions, please ask :-) best, Chipp Walters Altuit, Inc. Keith Hutchison wrote: Frankly the ten hour issue and the new differentiation between Dreamcard and Runtime Revolution scared us off. We are not ranting, just not (currently) buying. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Hi Chipp, Sorry to hear you say this. But of course you have your reasons. Thanks for your response, we were getting fairly frustrated with make up your mind in ten hours or forget it message. Frankly it caused confusion. I had made the decision to buy Runtime Express because 1. It built standalone apps. 2. It works with sockets. 3. It had a syntax that was similar to HyperCard 4. Some of the people on the list were really helpful in sorting out sockets. 5. Mostly because the graphic's people wanted it and it could work with my existing apps. I went to the store to buy the product but the store was down in preparation for the upgrade. Then Dreamcard came out. 1. It appears to be very different, as in more features than Express 2. It lost some functionality in relation to graphics or graphics processing, don't ask me for the details I was not doing the gui evaluation, on sockets, Express came up fine for me. 3. It lost the ability to create standalones. bummer :-( 4. It seemed to be more buggy, which I've come to expect from the first new release of any product, REALbasic included. It seems to me that as a developer, the entry point is now Runtime Studio whereas previously you could start with Runtime Express, built the gui, upgrade to Studio as we reach release point. The graphic designers decided to go with REALbasic. Especially after I pressed them for an answer. It literally was the make up your mind in ten hours that lost it for them. Literally. That was the immediate purchasing result, in our case. I will wait for the current version to shake out it bugs and then buy a version. I can see great potential is getting the strengths of each ide working with other with sockets, by each IDE I mean Runtime, REALbasic, MS Access, Delphi, Foxpro, PHP, Perl and even old Filemaker via Apple Script and ole :-) My understanding is that both the Dreamcard and Revolution demos are exactly the same with the following exceptions: 1) Dreamcard has a 10-hour trial limit; Rev has a 30-day trial limit 2) Dreamcard has a 'Dreamcard' splash screen on startup, whereas Rev has a 'Revolution' splash screen on startup Other than that, they are identical. So the same 'stack' will still work in all versions of RR? Now, if you were to purchase Rev, then you can build your own standalones (kinda like SuperCard), whereas if you purchase the less expensive Dreamcard, you'll need to bundle the player (kinda like HyperCard). But, you can always upgrade from Dreamcard to Revolution if you want to make a standalone of your Dreamcard stack. Good to know. In what version does the links for the database engines start? There are probably many reasons for creating the new Dreamcard product. As a professional user, I am happy RR has decided to separate the two products as IMO, there are both pluses and minuses for a product like Dreamcard. Plus: Easy to use and get started with, recognizable 'card' metaphor with Apple folks. Minus: Association with Hypercard and poorly designed stacks can create a 'stigma' for professional developers (this happened with my previous company and Director a few years ago). Happens with RB as well. In anycase, there are two products, but one IDE. While RealBasic is a fine programming environment, there are many here with RB experience who prefer RR. In fact, Andre Garzia is an experienced RB users and a big proponent of RR. I suggest you consider contacting him for some comparison questions. OK. Thanks. Also, Geoff Canyon created a RB/RR wiki a year or so ago which may lend further insight (anyone know a link). If you have any other questions, please ask :-) Geoff's link is old circa 2001 from memory. Each product has changed a great deal since then. Thanks Chipp Keith Hutchison Balance-Infosystems.Com postgresql - mysql - dbf Foxpro - Delphi - MS Access - REALbasic http://balance-infosystems.com http://realopen.org ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 9/3/04 5:14 AM, Wolfgang M.Bereuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Why does the same testfile (they mean: stack) have 7 MB with the Dreamcard player and only about 2-3 MB as a rev build standallone (They know my test apps). I'm not Chipp, but I have an answer: It is the components folder. This takes 4.8MB of space on my Mac, which basically makes up the difference in size. Now as to why DC *needs* all that extra stuff when a standalone doesn't is beyond me and perhaps Chipp or someone else can answer it. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Hi Ken and all, On 9/3/04 5:14 AM, Wolfgang M.Bereuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But... Why does the same testfile (they mean: stack) have 7 MB with the Dreamcard player and only about 2-3 MB as a rev build standallone (They know my test apps). I'm not Chipp, but I have an answer: I am also not Chipp, but my WIFE is Brian! It is the components folder. This takes 4.8MB of space on my Mac, which basically makes up the difference in size. Now as to why DC *needs* all that extra stuff when a standalone doesn't is beyond me and perhaps Chipp or someone else can answer it. I think this is necessary! Imagine the average DC user creates a nice stack that uses speech and ONLY deploys the actual stack (batteries NOT included!)... The disappoinmtent would be very big if the end-users would NOT hear what the user intended to be spoken :-) Or will just see an error if any hint at all why it does NOT work for him... So providing all necessary and possible libraries/external with the Player IS in fact a very good idea :-) And remember: This will be a ONE time (per version ;-) download! Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards Brian Major [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
I agree. I don't argue that Rev flood the market with free software for educators. I simply do not believe that 10 hours is a sufficient amount of time for learning/evaluation and that even the mere *perception* that real developers get 30 days and lowly newbies get 10 hours looks bad. Worse than bad: it looks like either the company isn't serious or it has a bias against this particular market (something which, incidentally, I don't believe is true). Judy On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: That sounds like I agree with Judy and Marian. I don't. Because the difference here is two-fold. First, RunRev doesn't have the resources to wait four years for college grads to enter the job market with experience in Revolution. They have to make profits now. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
This is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. Judy On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Keith Hutchison wrote: Thanks for your response, we were getting fairly frustrated with make up your mind in ten hours or forget it message. Frankly it caused confusion. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote: Education is the largest market Revor HyperCard, etc.will ever serve and hope to make large inroads. I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As far as I know, there is not one company today making significant money serving the education market with software, let alone programming software. Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote: A company buys one tool, not millions of chips. A company buys a million licenses for each tool. Nope. That's just wrong. With rev, a company with millions of customers only buys one copy of the program. ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolutionary Author of Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought http://www.revolutionpros.com for more info Available at Runtime Revolution Store (http://www.runrev.com/RevPress) ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
I do not necessarily disagree with you, Judy, about the 10-hour limit. I just don't think we have enough data points yet to know for sure, that's all. Dan On Sep 3, 2004, at 7:43 AM, Judy Perry wrote: I agree. I don't argue that Rev flood the market with free software for educators. I simply do not believe that 10 hours is a sufficient amount of time for learning/evaluation and that even the mere *perception* that real developers get 30 days and lowly newbies get 10 hours looks bad. Worse than bad: it looks like either the company isn't serious or it has a bias against this particular market (something which, incidentally, I don't believe is true). Judy On Thu, 2 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: That sounds like I agree with Judy and Marian. I don't. Because the difference here is two-fold. First, RunRev doesn't have the resources to wait four years for college grads to enter the job market with experience in Revolution. They have to make profits now. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 9/3/04 4:54 PM, Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Education is the largest market Revor HyperCard, etc.will ever serve and hope to make large inroads. I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As far as I know, there is not one company today making significant money serving the education market with software, let alone programming software. I can think of one off the top of my head: Inspiration (www.inspiration.com), who makes outlining/mind-mapping software. I've been in touch with PR people who represent other companies that make a living from software for the education market - they are usually not high-profile companies, and they usually serve only that market. Kirk My latest book: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Panther http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Educational software publishers (Was Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer)
At 09:54 AM 9/3/2004, you wrote: On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote: Education is the largest market Revor HyperCard, etc.will ever serve and hope to make large inroads. I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As far as I know, there is not one company today making significant money serving the education market with software, let alone programming software. Define significant. We do pretty good. http://www.siboneylearninggroup.com We were ranked 15th in sales growth at the annual St. Louis Regional Technology Top 50 Awards Dinner, sponsored by the RCGA. Peter T. Evensen http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com 24-hour recorded info hotline: 1-800-624-7671 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 3, 2004, at 8:08 AM, Kirk McElhearn wrote: On 9/3/04 4:54 PM, Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Education is the largest market Revor HyperCard, etc.will ever serve and hope to make large inroads. I hope not. The company will be out of business if that's the case. As far as I know, there is not one company today making significant money serving the education market with software, let alone programming software. I can think of one off the top of my head: Inspiration (www.inspiration.com), who makes outlining/mind-mapping software. Yeah, I know about Inspiration. But they are a VERY small company, much too small to support a full-blown development tool like Rev. (FWIW, I *love* Inspiration. I've built a few Web sites using it in some clever ways that the owner of the company shared with me.) I've been in touch with PR people who represent other companies that make a living from software for the education market - they are usually not high-profile companies, and they usually serve only that market. There are some. The key word in my response is significant. I don't think there are any such companies who are also big enough to maintain both a development and a support effort for a full-blown development tool. Schools typically want software free or at very low cost and they are (speaking from personal experience) very tough support customers because of turnover, lack of time and resources for most teachers and students to really dive in and learn a single program in the context of an academic calendar, and relatively infrequent use of any single piece of software. They are a difficult market to penetrate as well; the decision-maker is very often someone not on the org chart in a place where you could expect them to be. I'm sure things have gotten better since my last foray into that market, but making money there is a real challenge. Kirk My latest book: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Panther http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 3, 2004, at 8:38 AM, Dan Shafer wrote: Schools typically want software free or at very low cost and they are (speaking from personal experience) very tough support customers because of turnover, lack of time and resources for most teachers and students to really dive in and learn a single program in the context of an academic calendar, and relatively infrequent use of any single piece of software. They are a difficult market to penetrate as well; the decision-maker is very often someone not on the org chart in a place where you could expect them to be. I'm sure things have gotten better since my last foray into that market, but making money there is a real challenge. I have been in that market for 8 years now and agree that it is a tough nut to crack. -- Best regards, Mark Talluto http://www.canelasoftware.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Dan Shafer wrote: On Sep 3, 2004, at 4:48 AM, j wrote: A company buys one tool, not millions of chips. A company buys a million licenses for each tool. Nope. That's just wrong. With rev, a company with millions of customers only buys one copy of the program. Well, a million copies is a bit high, and as with HyperCard the number of people who script in any organization is almost always lower than the number of people who use what the scripters make. However, the larger the organization the more developers they will have, and hence bulk licenses. I've sold bulk licenses of WebMerge to the US Library of Congress, the American Bar Association, and MacWorld magazine. I'm sure that in any of these organizations the number of web developers is less than 1% of total staff, but there are a lot of staff. In the education market we see this even more commonly. The HyperRESEARCH product I develop for ResearchWare sells departmental licenses nearly every week. Sure, the number of people at these universities who need a qualitative analysis package are a small minority, but large enough to keep us excited about the opportunities in the educational market. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ Rev tools and more: http://www.fourthworld.com/rev ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
At 4:55 AM +1000 9/3/2004, Keith Hutchison wrote: Is there an upgrade path from DreamCard to Runtime Studio? Yes - if you go to the DreamCard page of the RunRev store, you'll see items for DreamCard to Studio Upgrade and DreamCard to Enterprise Upgrade. Why not just change the name across the board, DreamCard, DreamStudio and DreamEnterprise, which implies an upgrade path. My understanding is that it's because there's a desired differential between DreamCard (which is more for hobbyists, power users, educators, etc.) and Revolution (more for professional developers). -- jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.jaedworks.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 3, 2004, at 12:48 PM, Jeanne A. E. DeVoto wrote: Why not just change the name across the board, DreamCard, DreamStudio and DreamEnterprise, which implies an upgrade path. My understanding is that it's because there's a desired differential between DreamCard (which is more for hobbyists, power users, educators, etc.) and Revolution (more for professional developers). Hence my personal belief that there should be mailing lists which better represent those groups. Hobbyists don't want to listen to stuff that is over their heads, and professionals don't want to re-explain what a variable is over and over. -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 03.09.2004, at 17:08, Kirk McElhearn wrote: I can think of one off the top of my head: Inspiration (www.inspiration.com), who makes outlining/mind-mapping software. I've been in touch with PR people who represent other companies that make a living from software for the education market - they are usually not high-profile companies, and they usually serve only that market. Exactly. I know/work with Inspiration since about 15 years and did a lot with it. They started some years ago focusing only to the edu market, and never earned so much money in their history as with this step. And they have costumerfriendly support, whats basic for making money. regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps! INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria ... http://www.internettrainer.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418 Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 03.09.2004, at 17:38, Dan Shafer wrote: Yeah, I know about Inspiration. But they are a VERY small company, much too small to support a full-blown development tool like Rev. You are saying that Inspiration is smaller than rev?? regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps! INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria ... http://www.internettrainer.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418 Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On 9/1/04 10:51 PM, Marian Petrides [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But to someone who is just tinkering around, maybe the guy who fiddled a little with BASIC when it came free with his Apple ][ or early PC, who thinks Dreamcard MIGHT have the potential to do something either fun or useful or both... to that person $99 is a fair amount of money and the 10 hours are 10 hours of free time allocated to deciding on how best to spend discretionary money (entertainment money, toy money, play money, call it what you will). One other thing - I've been watching some of the video tutorials to try and get a handle on the program. Since the Rev server is excruciatingly slow (I've got a 2Mbps DSL connection; the tutorials download at about 10K/sec), I've been letting them download and working on other things, finding that, for one of them, I left the program open for an hour while working on something else. Kirk My latest book: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Panther http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 02.09.2004, at 03:30, Dan Shafer wrote: And this whole discussion is, at least for now, kind of moot because: (a) RunRev aren't likely to change their policy without a lot more feedback from users of the Dreamcard product; and (b) As someone has already pointed out a couple of times, you can always get the 30-day trial of Rev. This feels to me like a tempest in a teapot when we should all be beating up on and extolling the virtues (and finding the flaws) of the new release. So I'm going to shut up on this subject now and get back to my real love: programming in Rev! Yoohoo! Sorry Dan, but with all the respect to your great postings and big ideas here, which I appreciated very much all the time. But this sounds to me deprecative, like: What do you, Rev user, want? You have to buy the license, evengelise and praise our product all the time, not matter what you are personally thinking about it. Therefore we will definitly *not* change ours minds. I m sorry for you, that the Gys and Gals here do not like your Idea of the 10 hours license, assuming its from you, how enthusiastic you defend it... I know you have the personality to rethink about it. So please take a short time out and rethink. If nit and you change to the syndicate of uncritical rev prayers, that would be a big loss for all of us and a loss of many future coming revolutionries. regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps! INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria ... http://www.internettrainer.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418 Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On 02.09.2004, at 00:10, Alex Tweedly wrote: If I had known there was a time limit, I think I'd have been able to do my evaluation comfortably within that time - and I would not still be a user. At the ten hour time-frame, I was very frustrated by RR and Transcript, and wondering why on earth there were all these enthusiastic, smart people on this mail list who were convinced that it was absolutely wonderful; if it hadn't been for them, I'd have abandoned RR then regardless of any time limit. (Actually, I still am frequently frustrated by RR and Transcript - but I also know the other side of the story now :-) Perfect description. BUT you are developer think in programming newbie! regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps! INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria ... http://www.internettrainer.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418 Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 9/2/04 10:11 AM, Wolfgang M.Bereuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I m sorry for you, that the Gys and Gals here do not like your Idea of the 10 hours license, assuming its from you, how enthusiastic you defend it... I know you have the personality to rethink about it. So please take a short time out and rethink. If nit and you change to the syndicate of uncritical rev prayers, that would be a big loss for all of us and a loss of many future coming revolutionries. Quite simply, the number of comments in this sense should make the company think twice about this arbitrary limit... No matter how they defend it, it is clear that enough people disagree that they should change it. Kirk Forthcoming book: iPod/iTunes Garage http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 2/9/04 3:30 am, Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (a) RunRev aren't likely to change their policy without a lot more feedback from users of the Dreamcard product; and Right. Folks, we always listen to all the feedback and consider it carefully. But in this particular instance, well meant as it is, this debate isn't all that helpful. Almost no-one in this debate is a new Dreamcard user, you mostly purchased Revolution, and mostly purchased it before we had the new learning material. Will we watch carefully to see how new users respond? Of course we will. Might we alter the number of hours depending on the feedback and statistics we receive? Of course. But the people in this discussion are not a representative sample of this target audience. And the principal behind this trial structure is based on sound evidence. I noticed that some of the posts come from people who haven't even looked at the new tutorials! We will monitor real statistics and real feedback directly from this initiative. Then, like any good business we can make any necessary minor improvements based on that, when there is actually enough information from that group to draw conclusions as to what might be required. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Thanks, Judy. Right on target! On Sep 2, 2004, at 1:48 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Because it's in Rev's best interest that they learn to use *their* product instead of somebody else's... Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: If they have _no_ skills or background training in software but want to learn, why should they learn for free? ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Exactly :-) Because it's in Rev's best interest that they learn to use *their* product instead of somebody else's... Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: If they have _no_ skills or background training in software but want to learn, why should they learn for free? Let me state that I prefer REALbasic to Runtime Revolution. My graphic artist prefers Runtime Revolution to REALbasic I am off to train another graphic artist in the use of REALbasic next week. I have asked 'my' graphic artist to evaluate Runtime Revolution _before_ I go. I figure that if one graphic art's person prefers Runtime Revolution then the chances are high that another might. I don't care which one they use, as long as they are weaned off Filemaker :-) and can access the postgreql backend. Let's hope he can give me a recommendation _before_ the ten hours is up. Keith Hutchison Balance-Infosystems.Com postgresql - mysql - dbf Foxpro - Delphi - MS Access - REALbasic http://balance-infosystems.com http://realopen.org ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
This email should of referenced dreamcard instead of Runtime Revolution The name change is confusing, for me. With Express, which I was just about to buy when the store went down, I knew it had all the functionality _I_ wanted, compiled an executable, which was something I wanted, and advertised Runtime Revolution every time it quit as a nag to upgrade to studio, which I felt was a fair enough. Is there an upgrade path from DreamCard to Runtime Studio? The message I sent to runtime rev was bounced with a polite message to address all such queries to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Why not just change the name across the board, DreamCard, DreamStudio and DreamEnterprise, which implies an upgrade path. Exactly :-) Because it's in Rev's best interest that they learn to use *their* product instead of somebody else's... Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: If they have _no_ skills or background training in software but want to learn, why should they learn for free? Let me state that I prefer REALbasic to Runtime Revolution. My graphic artist prefers Runtime Revolution to REALbasic I am off to train another graphic artist in the use of REALbasic next week. I have asked 'my' graphic artist to evaluate Runtime Revolution _before_ I go. I figure that if one graphic art's person prefers Runtime Revolution then the chances are high that another might. I don't care which one they use, as long as they are weaned off Filemaker :-) and can access the postgreql backend. Let's hope he can give me a recommendation _before_ the ten hours is up. Keith Hutchison Balance-Infosystems.Com postgresql - mysql - dbf Foxpro - Delphi - MS Access - REALbasic http://balance-infosystems.com http://realopen.org ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
I lied. I said I'd stay out of this from now on but I couldn't let this comment go unchallenged. 20 or so years ago, I was at Intel. We kept losing design-ins to inferior technology. My boss assigned me to figure out why and how to fix it. The problem I found was that Motorola was giving engineering students free SDKs in engineering school. They'd graduate, go to their first job, and their boss would ask them what they wanted to use for their project, which was by then already behind schedule. Moto won not because they had better technology but because they ensured that college grads knew their technology. That sounds like I agree with Judy and Marian. I don't. Because the difference here is two-fold. First, RunRev doesn't have the resources to wait four years for college grads to enter the job market with experience in Revolution. They have to make profits now. Second, software isn't like integrated circuits. A company buys one tool, not millions of chips. corporate standards always trump individual desires. Companies are not going to standardize on Revolution because some recent college grad shows up with knowledge of it. In fact, I submit, colleges and universities are not going to adopt Revolution as a teaching language in any significant numbers as long as they can get industry standard tools like Java, C#, etc., free, even if RunRev *pays* them to do so. I think this part of the discussion is being largely driven by people in the education marketplace. And I respect their right to their opinions in the spaces they know. But overall, that market is minuscule and all but insignificant to software development tool companies for a whole host of reasons. RunRev's a small company. It needs to stick to its knitting and make money\, not gratuitously fund newbies in the hope of some phantom long-term gain. Let the rants begin. On Sep 2, 2004, at 10:48 AM, Judy Perry wrote: Because it's in Rev's best interest that they learn to use *their* product instead of somebody else's... Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: If they have _no_ skills or background training in software but want to learn, why should they learn for free? ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolutionary Author of Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought http://www.revolutionpros.com for more info Available at Runtime Revolution Store (http://www.runrev.com/RevPress) ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Hi Dan, RunRev's a small company. It needs to stick to its knitting and make money\, not gratuitously fund newbies in the hope of some phantom long-term gain. Balance-Infosystems.Com is also a small company. Frankly the ten hour issue and the new differentiation between Dreamcard and Runtime Revolution scared us off. We are not ranting, just not (currently) buying. Keith Hutchison Balance-Infosystems.Com postgresql - mysql - dbf Foxpro - Delphi - MS Access - REALbasic http://balance-infosystems.com http://realopen.org ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On 9/1/04 12:50 AM, Richard Gaskin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ludovic Thébault wrote: Hello, Why the Dreamcard trial is limited to ten hours ? A newbie need time to discover a language, to discover programming, or simply to discover a new program (especially a rich program like Rev). 10 hours? Must be a bug. I've never even heard of a software product with such a small window for evaluation, and as you note a proprietary programming language will arguably require more time than most other types of software. 30 days should be a minimum. Nope, from the web site: Download Dreamcard and take as long as you want to try it out, up to a limit of 10 hours of actual usage - click here Note that this is actual usage vs. 30 days where you may or may not use it at all within that time. Still it is odd... Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 01:06:02 -0500, Ken Ray wrote: Download Dreamcard and take as long as you want to try it out, up to a limit of 10 hours of actual usage - click here Note that this is actual usage vs. 30 days where you may or may not use it at all within that time. Still it is odd... But if 10 hours of actual usage = 10 hours of rev is open, for a newbie, imho, it's too small : Just to explore menus and docs, test some stacks example, and to do an helloworld stack. Not enough of time to really test Dreamcard. Ludovic ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wed, 01 Sep 2004 01:06:02 -0500, Ken Ray wrote: Download Dreamcard and take as long as you want to try it out, up to a limit of 10 hours of actual usage - click here Note that this is actual usage vs. 30 days where you may or may not use it at all within that time. Still it is odd... Maybe its a typo? Ten hours is way too low...I think that even 30 days is too low. In Case Studies they state Tech Workshop Tours which should be Techie Tours as in http://TechieTours.com/Rev (European Rev Conference November 2004). Haven't found any mention about the EuroRevCon on the web site either. I've sent emails on my typo and no mention of the EuroRevCon. People should give the entire web site a good proof reading. Ciao sims http://TechieTours.com/RevEuropean Rev Conference November 2004 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
For DreamCard users... I think 10 hours is just about right. The ten hours also has implications for people who have a valid license as Rev has changed the licensing system with 2.5 As my valid unlock code needs to be updated, I went to: http://support.runrev.com/license/updatekeyrequest.php Where I found the following text and then requested an updated code. For the version 2.5 release, we have changed the licensing system. This means your existing code will not unlock 2.5, even if it is still valid for this release. You need to obtain a new code for 2.5, which you can do by entering your email address below. I have a valid license for Revolution 2.5, please send me my new code. If I only have ten hours of use before I get shut off from using Rev 2.5, then I will surely be shut off by sometime tomorrow morning as I will be using Rev 2.5 at least eight hours today alone. I am very hoping that they will send me a new code soon. atb sims ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
sims wrote: If I only have ten hours of use before I get shut off from using Rev 2.5, then I will surely be shut off by sometime tomorrow morning as I will be using Rev 2.5 at least eight hours today alone. If the phone rings don't answer it while Rev is open. ;) -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
RE: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Thanks for that link. I was going to email support to find out what I had to do... Dave -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of sims Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2004 10:27 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; How to use Revolution Subject: Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ? For DreamCard users... I think 10 hours is just about right. The ten hours also has implications for people who have a valid license as Rev has changed the licensing system with 2.5 As my valid unlock code needs to be updated, I went to: http://support.runrev.com/license/updatekeyrequest.php Where I found the following text and then requested an updated code. For the version 2.5 release, we have changed the licensing system. This means your existing code will not unlock 2.5, even if it is still valid for this release. You need to obtain a new code for 2.5, which you can do by entering your email address below. I have a valid license for Revolution 2.5, please send me my new code. If I only have ten hours of use before I get shut off from using Rev 2.5, then I will surely be shut off by sometime tomorrow morning as I will be using Rev 2.5 at least eight hours today alone. I am very hoping that they will send me a new code soon. atb sims ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 12:24 AM, Chipp Walters wrote: For DreamCard users... I think 10 hours is just about right. If after spending 10 hours with DreamCard, you're not convinced to pop for the $99 version, then I'm not sure when you'd be. Now, Revolution is a different deal, as it's targeted at professional programmers, and as such would need more 'tire-kicking'. If you think just ten hours is not enough consider this. There are two schools for pilot training. In the less expensive, less structured version the instructor evaluates the student to consider the student ready to solo. There is an allowable window of eight to sixteen hours of actual instructed flying/training where the instructor determines when or if ever the student is allowed to solo. If you can turn excellent students loose in an airplane with just eight hours flight training then ten hours might be a pretty good window into DreamCard. Anyway, what's to stop them from getting the thirty day demo version of Rev after that. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Chipp 10 hours enough? With all due respect I think not. The people DreamCard is directed at are sort of like me. I am a graphic designer not a programmer though I have and do some programming (PHP, Applescript) it would take more than 10 hours for me just to get comfortable with the environment/language syntax. A programmer might be able to kick the tyres and take the program out for a spin, but the analogy is more like a bicyclist who is about to buy a car. Thirty days would be enough time to get use to the environment and build something useful that you can't live without. Separate point -- I am actually different than most of Dreamcard prospective users in that I have been lurking on this mailing list for a long time. I have downloaded Rev a number of time to play with and because I have been looking for an excuse to use it. Over the time I've lurked the licensing as continually been in flux. When I first looked at Rev you could use a fully functional program but were limited to ten lines of code. In the last interation along with 30 day trials, there was a limited version called Revolution Express, now we have Dreamcard. It feels like Revolution is still a young company in search of a niche and since the constrains are artificial, they can and have continually changed. F D Yocum Graphic Designer Mennonite Central Committee ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 1/9/04 5:00 pm, Fred D Yocum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 10 hours enough? With all due respect I think not. If after spending 10 hours actually in Dreamcard, you are not ready to part with $99, I doubt that providing a longer trial is going to help. I am actually different than most of Dreamcard prospective users in that I have been lurking on this mailing list for a long time. I have downloaded Rev a number of time to play with and because I have been looking for an excuse to use it. Over the time I've lurked the licensing as continually been in flux. When I first looked at Rev you could use a fully functional program but were limited to ten lines of code. In the last interation along with 30 day trials, there was a limited version called Revolution Express, now we have Dreamcard. It feels like Revolution is still a young company in search of a niche and since the constrains are artificial, they can and have continually changed. On the contrary, the company has been around for 8 years, thousands of customers use Revolution every day. Like any good company of any size we do market research from time to time, and the only way to get really good data is to carefully monitor changes as you make them. The changes over the last year have all been in the same overall direction, as we implement the road map that started when we completed our acquisition of the engine technology early last year. Kind regards, Kevin Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/ Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 07:20 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: If the phone rings don't answer it while Rev is open. ;) -- Richard Gaskin If you let it ring ten times before answering it then you get an extra ten Rev frequent traveler miles, really. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On Sep 1, 2004, at 11:00 AM, Fred D Yocum wrote: A programmer might be able to kick the tyres and take the program out for a spin, but the analogy is more like a bicyclist who is about to buy a car. AFAIK when you go to buy a car, no matter how much driving experience you have, you get a bunch of brochures, and a test drive that lasts about 10 minutes. For DreamCard, we're talking about a *very* inexpensive authoring environment in comparison to everything else that is out there. It should be a pretty easy decision after 10 hours of use, especially with RevOnline to get you up-to-speed. -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
On 9/1/04 5:27 PM, Troy Rollins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For DreamCard, we're talking about a *very* inexpensive authoring environment in comparison to everything else that is out there. It should be a pretty easy decision after 10 hours of use, especially with RevOnline to get you up-to-speed. Inexpensive, perhaps. But the paucity of the documentation (not the reference doc, but introductory doc) makes you lean toward more than the basic - while the program is $99, if you buy the package with the book and access to additional tutorials (the content of which is nowhere to be found), then pony up to pay for a year's upgrades, it's more than twice that. I'm thinking twice because of the difference between the basic program and what I'd need to be able to really use it. Kirk My latest book: How to Do Everything with Mac OS X Panther http://www.mcelhearn.com/htde.html . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.mcelhearn.com . . . . . . . . Kirk McElhearn | Chemin de la Lauze | 05600 Guillestre | France . . ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
But, how many will they lose to the perception of being miserly? (I should add that I was going to use the work 'niggardly' but, being afraid of being racially offensive, used a thesaurus... in which the word 'Scotch' also became an unfortunate possibility). Really, though: what will they lose by upping it to the same 30-day period granted to the digerati? Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Chipp Walters wrote: I doubt RR would gain many potential buyers if they upped the Dreamcard demo to 30 days or more. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Richard Gaskin wrote: If the phone rings don't answer it while Rev is open. ;) -- Richard Gaskin Then Mark Brownell wrote: If you let it ring ten times before answering it then you get an extra ten Rev frequent traveler miles, really. Cool! Do I get to fly with one of those students loose in an airplane with just eight hours flight training?? That should be a real trip!;-) sims ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
--- Kirk McElhearn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/1/04 5:27 PM, Troy Rollins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For DreamCard, we're talking about a *very* inexpensive authoring environment in comparison to everything else that is out there. It should be a pretty easy decision after 10 hours of use, especially with RevOnline to get you up-to-speed. Inexpensive, perhaps. But the paucity of the documentation (not the reference doc, but introductory doc) makes you lean toward more than the basic - while the program is $99, if you buy the package with the book and access to additional tutorials (the content of which is nowhere to be found), then pony up to pay for a year's upgrades, it's more than twice that. I'm thinking twice because of the difference between the basic program and what I'd need to be able to really use it. Kirk Hi Kirk, sarcasm Your reply makes me wonder how we ever got by using Revolution 1.0 and higher : separate printed manuals, no book from Dan Shafer, and no RevOnline video tutorials. /sarcasm The truth of the matter is that the built-in documentation covers everything you need to know. Having those 4000+ pages printed out as several tomes can be nice for browsing while you're sitting in a comfortble chair, but the new viewer is more than adequate, at least for me. The included video tutorials that you can view in RevOnline walk you through the basics and show you where you need to click, how to use the IDE. Plus, you also get them in PDF format so you can print them and read them in yur comfortble chair. The advanced videos cover topics you may never touch in your use of the product. Finally, if you feel you need an extra bit of help from Dan Shafer, his book is an excellent choice, as it is written in a very direct let's do this style and will give you lots of pointers. But he has to make a living as well. This mailing list provides you wih advice from peers ; we are all users of Revolution and for nearly every question you'll find someone willing to try and come up with an answer -- though we can't make your application for you, of course. All in all you get a pretty sweet deal for $99 : a programming tool that used to sell for $999. With regards to the yearly subscription fee, let me give you an example that shows how this works to your advantage : - if you had bought Revolution 2.1 with an upgrade pack on September 1 last year, you would have received the upgrade to 2.2 and 2.5 as part of the deal. - this means you would have gotten native WinXP MacOSX Panther appearance, enhanced database linked controls, native Linux/GTK appearance, the XML-RPC library, encryption support, and so many other features. If I were you, I'd grab the plastic and place the order before Kevin Miller changes his mind about the pricing, as it is a very very nice deal. Jan Schenkel. = As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time. (La Rochefoucauld) ___ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
--- Judy Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, how many will they lose to the perception of being miserly? (I should add that I was going to use the work 'niggardly' but, being afraid of being racially offensive, used a thesaurus... in which the word 'Scotch' also became an unfortunate possibility). Really, though: what will they lose by upping it to the same 30-day period granted to the digerati? Judy Hi Judy, Where Revolution is geared towards programmers, Dreamcard is aimed at the consumer market -- I'm sure future revisions will bring more differences between the products. If I were looking for a tool to make small tools for myself, I'd look at what was available for my immediate needs and how well Dreamcard stacks up against tools in the same market. While I will take my time to check every little detail before parting with $999 for Rev Enterprise, I think a bit of experimenting with Dreamcard would convince me in no time. After all, I bought Revolution 1.1 after having looked over the feature set on the website and seeing it work on both my Windows and Mac portables -- a decision taken after barely 5 hours of play time. And boy, am I glad I decided to take it :-) Jan Schenkel. = As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time. (La Rochefoucauld) ___ Do you Yahoo!? Win 1 of 4,000 free domain names from Yahoo! Enter now. http://promotions.yahoo.com/goldrush ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
The difference is that flight instruction is a structured learning environment with literally one-on-one instruction from the CFI (certificated flight instructor). A newbie to Dreamcard has to learn their way around the interface, get a handle on the concept of stack/card/object and THEN try to use the tool. To be fair, I have not yet tried the video tutorials (except for the first) but unless I miss my guess, while you are watching the videos and trying to absorb what they are teaching, your 10 hour time clock is ticking away. You need time for the concepts to sink in before you can begin trying to apply them. Heck, since the only way to access the online dox is to have the IDE running, you can't even print up a getting started manual to look through offline without eating into your precious 10 hours. Back to the flight school analogy: Try leaving the student pilot with his ground school manuals, Microsoft Flight Simulator and an airplane. Then tell him he has 10 hours to learn to fly the sucker. Can he do it? Sure, if he's Chuck Yeager. Mere mortals with real jobs and real family distractions, maybe not. M On Sep 1, 2004, at 10:56 AM, Mark Brownell wrote: If you can turn excellent students loose in an airplane with just eight hours flight training then ten hours might be a pretty good window into DreamCard. Anyway, what's to stop them from getting the thirty day demo version of Rev after that. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On 9/1/04 11:22 AM, Jan Schenkel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While I will take my time to check every little detail before parting with $999 for Rev Enterprise, I think a bit of experimenting with Dreamcard would convince me in no time. Well, Jan, that's just the thing... I don't think you (or any other dedicated programmer) is Dreamcard's target market. My understanding is that it is targeted for new developers or ones who used to use HyperCard a long time ago and don't currently. If that's true, then I agree with Judy that 10 hours is not enough time, IMHO. Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 09:15 AM, Judy Perry wrote: The difference is that, in flight school, the person has a dedicated 8 to whatever hours of instruction. With a software download, well, there's the telephone, starting another load of laundry, kids beating one another and thus requiring intervention... Judy Hi Judy, With flight instruction as well as Dreamcard, I believe that the hours are actual user time. So if you keep the Dreamcard engine running on the ramp then you waist the hours so to speak. If on the other hand you close Dreamcard when you are not using it then you get most if not all of those ten hours each time you restart it. Unlike Dreamcard when you get to 16 hours in flight instruction completed if you have not soloed yet the instructor by law is required to tell you that it would not be advisable that you take up flying and is required to enter this into his instruction flight logs and your flight logbook as well. As far as the laundry, phone, and kids goes... How do you do that? I need to concentrate when I work at the computer. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 09:58 AM, Ken Ray wrote: If that's true, then I agree with Judy that 10 hours is not enough time, IMHO. So make it 16 hours and kick them out at 1000 meters AGL. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 09:55 AM, Marian Petrides wrote: The difference is that flight instruction is a structured learning environment with literally one-on-one instruction from the CFI (certificated flight instructor). This is fun, just like hanger flying. A newbie to Dreamcard has to learn their way around the interface, get a handle on the concept of stack/card/object and THEN try to use the tool. To be fair, I have not yet tried the video tutorials (except for the first) but unless I miss my guess, while you are watching the videos and trying to absorb what they are teaching, your 10 hour time clock is ticking away. Well that is either like taking off without the tail and rudder or worst leaving the airport on an empty tank. Is the only way to view the videos with Dreamcard? You need time for the concepts to sink in before you can begin trying to apply them. Heck, since the only way to access the online dox is to have the IDE running, you can't even print up a getting started manual to look through offline without eating into your precious 10 hours. Back to the flight school analogy: Try leaving the student pilot with his ground school manuals, Microsoft Flight Simulator and an airplane. Then tell him he has 10 hours to learn to fly the sucker. Can he do it? Sure, if he's Chuck Yeager. Mere mortals with real jobs and real family distractions, maybe not. M That's an interesting analogy. You are expected to pass ground school before you take the less expensive version of flight-training. So knowledge of how to navigate, contact the tower, cross-wind components, FARs, weather, airport traffic procedures, flight-control uses, and maybe the exact flight characteristics of the training plane including the V-speeds for takeoff and the approach to a stall speeds are. What's missing is the instructor signing off on proving that the student can do it. Proffency can be tested in less than a half of an hour. Many times the student is not prepared for learning. In regards to Dreamcard it would be nice to have a ground-school for potential Dreamcard beginner programers. Then the ten hours would be more than adequate. It has been reported that the airplane flew directly to the scene of the crash. just my two touchgoes. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
I think there is a bit of blurring here but maybe it's just my eyesight. 10 hours is not nearly enough to learn Dreamcard. But 10 hours seems to me to be a generous amount of time to decide whether to part with what is after all a small amount of money even if you opt for the big package deal. The videos that come with Dreamcard would take 2-3 hours to watch. The total running time of included videos is about 90 minutes. And they cover a good bit of ground. And each one has an accompanying PDF file the user who learns better that way can print out and read. Then of course there's the online documentation. Just opening the FAQ and browsing a bit would lead an interested user to a fair amount of useful information. (It would be helpful if there was a roadmap file in the box; I don't know if there is or not since I haven't downloaded Dreamcard myself.) Remembering that the audience for Dreamcard is hobbyists and newbies, they're likely to spend a couple of hours a night for a week or a few hours each day on a weekend looking over the product before deciding whether to plunk down $99. One more thing. An arbitrary review period measured in ACTUAL time of usage rather than some number of days passing is, IMNSHO, a very smart and helpful thing. I can't tell you how many trial programs I've downloaded, looked at, figured they were worth a deeper look, and went back to some period of time later only to find that not only had the demo expired without my having time to get to know the product, but downloading a new time-limited demo wasn't feasible because of the way the publisher handled the lockout. With Dreamcard, you could, e.g., open the product, watch a video or two, download the PDFs, then quit Rev, print out the PDFs and go read them at your leisure. Come back some arbitrary time later and try another video or even poke at building something that was described in one of the PDFs. Ten may not turn out to be the right number, but the approach seems to me to be very wise. I congratulate RunRev for this decision and predict it will pay large dividends. But, as I say, I'm an old codger so maybe the blurring is all in my mind. heh heh On Sep 1, 2004, at 10:12 AM, Mark Brownell wrote: On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 09:58 AM, Ken Ray wrote: If that's true, then I agree with Judy that 10 hours is not enough time, IMHO. So make it 16 hours and kick them out at 1000 meters AGL. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolutionary Author of Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought http://www.revolutionpros.com for more info Available at Runtime Revolution Store (http://www.runrev.com/RevPress) ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Sims I just renewed my Enterprise license about 2 weeks ago (18 August but who's counting) and the email I got gave me a new unlock key which was identical to the one I got for the 2.5 beta 2 (or was it RC1?). In fact, the text included reference to the key working for 2.5b2 and all subsequent versions issued during the year of my subscription. If you have a 2.5b2 unlock key (the updated key you had to get as some point late in beta or at the RC stage), you might try it and see if it works for 2.5 final release, too. On Sep 1, 2004, at 10:26 AM, sims wrote: For DreamCard users... I think 10 hours is just about right. The ten hours also has implications for people who have a valid license as Rev has changed the licensing system with 2.5 As my valid unlock code needs to be updated, I went to: http://support.runrev.com/license/updatekeyrequest.php Where I found the following text and then requested an updated code. For the version 2.5 release, we have changed the licensing system. This means your existing code will not unlock 2.5, even if it is still valid for this release. You need to obtain a new code for 2.5, which you can do by entering your email address below. I have a valid license for Revolution 2.5, please send me my new code. If I only have ten hours of use before I get shut off from using Rev 2.5, then I will surely be shut off by sometime tomorrow morning as I will be using Rev 2.5 at least eight hours today alone. I am very hoping that they will send me a new code soon. atb sims ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Hi Mark and all, ... A newbie to Dreamcard has to learn their way around the interface, get a handle on the concept of stack/card/object and THEN try to use the tool. To be fair, I have not yet tried the video tutorials (except for the first) but unless I miss my guess, while you are watching the videos and trying to absorb what they are teaching, your 10 hour time clock is ticking away. Well that is either like taking off without the tail and rudder or worst leaving the airport on an empty tank. Is the only way to view the videos with Dreamcard? I think the new Rev-Player is also able to open and display Revonline if doubleclicked INSIDE the REV folder... Does at least here in my rev-enterprise folder... So one could watch the videos etc... with the Rev-Player and save some of the (miserly, had to take a look into my dictionary, and i think i like this word) granted minutes ;-) If this is true for DreamCard (and i think it is) this MUST go into the docs in xtra-xtra-bold and 120 points! You need time for the concepts to sink in before you can begin trying to apply them. Heck, since the only way to access the online dox is to have the IDE running, you can't even print up a getting started manual to look through offline without eating into your precious 10 hours. Back to the flight school analogy: Try leaving the student pilot with his ground school manuals, Microsoft Flight Simulator and an airplane. Then tell him he has 10 hours to learn to fly the sucker. Can he do it? Sure, if he's Chuck Yeager. Who the heck is Chuck Yeager? I only know Chuck Connors :-D Regards Klaus Major [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Klaus Major wrote: Who the heck is Chuck Yeager? I only know Chuck Connors :-D Regards read the book! This guy's like five good movies rolled into one epic. My favorite is him using air force helicopters to go trout fishing in the high sierras. He's a guy of firsts. List: broke the speed of sound, spun and recovered from a spin a captured korean war style Russian Mig discovering later that this was strictly against the advice of the Russian designers, He's numero-uno at the edwards test flight center during all the great jet development in the fifties-sixties, he's the first WWII air ace to get shot down behind enemy lines and escape and get general Eisenhower's permission to fly in combat again, he has twenty-ten vision making him a fighter plain nightmare for the enemy in WWII. On top of that he's colorful, used to hang out with legendary Pancho Barns. (who's that?) Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
10 hours! You get more time with a Free AOL CD, and we all know what happens to those. Seriously though, busy people will start the DreamCard demo, then become distracted by a customer or something, and the meter will continue to run until the time is gone. I think at least a week would give most people a fair chance to test the product. Roger Eller [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
A week with no meter is just as useless in my experience. You open it, decide to check it out, get distracted, come back in a few days and it's no longer working. The decision to limit by hours of use rather than be elapsed calendar days is brilliant. The number may or may not need adjustment, but the principle is right. Just my opinion, as usual. On Sep 1, 2004, at 11:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 10 hours! You get more time with a Free AOL CD, and we all know what happens to those. Seriously though, busy people will start the DreamCard demo, then become distracted by a customer or something, and the meter will continue to run until the time is gone. I think at least a week would give most people a fair chance to test the product. Roger Eller [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolutionary Author of Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought http://www.revolutionpros.com for more info Available at Runtime Revolution Store (http://www.runrev.com/RevPress) ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
That may well be true but the number of hours needs to be closer to 30 or 40 to give a reasonable amount of time to learn your way around and then kick the tires a bit. On Sep 1, 2004, at 2:21 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: The decision to limit by hours of use rather than be elapsed calendar days is brilliant. The number may or may not need adjustment, but the principle is right. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 11:07 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 10 hours! You get more time with a Free AOL CD, and we all know what happens to those. Seriously though, busy people will start the DreamCard demo, then become distracted by a customer or something, and the meter will continue to run until the time is gone. I think at least a week would give most people a fair chance to test the product. Roger Eller This thread reminds my of the businesses that argue over what balloon color sells best at their balloon concession stand out front. Dreamcard is not going anywhere, Revolution isn't going away. It's all getting better. If the purchases to downloads ratio don't do great then adjustments or pre-training methods may use minor adjustments to improve sales ratios. RunRev uses ten hours, go fly a kite... Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Hi Mark, On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 10:51 AM, Klaus Major wrote: Who the heck is Chuck Yeager? I only know Chuck Connors :-D Regards read the book! This guy's like five good movies rolled into one epic. My favorite is him using air force helicopters to go trout fishing in the high sierras. He's a guy of firsts. List: broke the speed of sound, spun and recovered from a spin a captured korean war style Russian Mig discovering later that this was strictly against the advice of the Russian designers, He's numero-uno at the edwards test flight center during all the great jet development in the fifties-sixties, he's the first WWII air ace to get shot down behind enemy lines and escape and get general Eisenhower's permission to fly in combat again, he has twenty-ten vision making him a fighter plain nightmare for the enemy in WWII. On top of that he's colorful, used to hang out with legendary Pancho Barns. (who's that?) Wow! So what? ;-) Mark Regards Klaus Major [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.major-k.de ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Hi Kevin, Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 17:21:38 +0200 From: Kevin Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer On 1/9/04 5:00 pm, Fred D Yocum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 10 hours enough? With all due respect I think not. If after spending 10 hours actually in Dreamcard, you are not ready to part with $99, I doubt that providing a longer trial is going to help. But how do you know? Your target audience is probably made up of people who have never really attempted to work an IDE before, and all of us are at different levels of experience and abilities with computers in general. If someone asks for more time to decide, what is the risk of giving it to them, as opposed to refusing? Ken N. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On 01.09.2004, at 20:32, Klaus Major wrote: read the book! This guy's like five good movies rolled into one epic. My favorite is him using air force helicopters to go trout fishing in the high sierras. He's a guy of firsts. List: broke the speed of sound, spun and recovered from a spin a captured korean war style Russian Mig discovering later that this was strictly against the advice of the Russian designers, He's numero-uno at the edwards test flight center during all the great jet development in the fifties-sixties, he's the first WWII air ace to get shot down behind enemy lines and escape and get general Eisenhower's permission to fly in combat again, he has twenty-ten vision making him a fighter plain nightmare for the enemy in WWII. On top of that he's colorful, used to hang out with legendary Pancho Barns. (who's that?) Wow! So what? ;-) ROFL regards Wolfgang M. Bereuter Trainingsmaps© -- speedlearning Mindmaps! INTERNETTRAINER Wolfgang M. Bereuter Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria ... http://www.internettrainer.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... Tel: ++43/1/ 961 0418 Fax: ++43/1/ 479 2539 ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Dan, I agree with you. It all depends on who's perspective you're looking at this from. For me to take 10 hours to evaluate a $99 purchase, doesn't make sense. Of course, for others, it may make sense. I'm curious how many hours other developers spent with trial versions of RR before committing any $$? The first time I played with RR for about 2 hours and then bought it. -Chipp Dan Shafer wrote: Marian With all due respect, I don't think ANY of us is in a position to make that judgment without taking the time to look at the experience itself. My first cut is that 10 hours just to figure out if it's a tool worth investing $100 in is plenty but I don't have any more sound basis for that judgment than you do for yours. Dan ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Sep 1, 2004, at 4:36 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: For me to take 10 hours to evaluate a $99 purchase, doesn't make sense. Of course, for others, it may make sense. Again, the thing you and Dan both need to remember is that most of the folks on this list at the moment use Rev as a professional tool and 10 hours evaluating a $100 purchase in that context is probably not cost-effective. But to someone who is just tinkering around, maybe the guy who fiddled a little with BASIC when it came free with his Apple ][ or early PC, who thinks Dreamcard MIGHT have the potential to do something either fun or useful or both... to that person $99 is a fair amount of money and the 10 hours are 10 hours of free time allocated to deciding on how best to spend discretionary money (entertainment money, toy money, play money, call it what you will). I'm curious how many hours other developers spent with trial versions of RR before committing any $$? The first time I played with RR for about 2 hours and then bought it. Me, too. But I knew EXACTLY what I was looking for (all I wanted at that juncture was Hypercard Crossplatform), tried Rev and thought I had died and gone to heaven. To someone who's never used Hypercard, on the other hand, it may take a while to even see the potential, to conceive of the uses. I still don't see the downside of giving someone a little longer to try the product before they make a decision. How many sales will be lost if a few people use it long enough to make a useful app or two and then decide not to buy?--I suspect not many. The greater risk, methinks, is that someone will not have a long enough trial period and just give up on Dreamcard prematurely. M ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
For me to take 10 hours to evaluate a $99 purchase, doesn't make sense. Of course, for others, it may make sense. Again, the thing you and Dan both need to remember is that most of the folks on this list at the moment use Rev as a professional tool and 10 hours evaluating a $100 purchase in that context is probably not cost-effective. This debate is never going to end but FWIW, here's a little Marketing 101: Match or exceed your competitors' offers/features. It's not rocket science. Regards, Scott Rossi Creative Director Tactile Media, Multimedia Design - E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] W: http://www.tactilemedia.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Hi Judy, Mark, sims, et al, Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 18:14:06 +0200 From: sims [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer Then Mark Brownell wrote: If you let it ring ten times before answering it then you get an extra ten Rev frequent traveler miles, really. Cool! Do I get to fly with one of those students loose in an airplane with just eight hours flight training?? That should be a real trip!;-) = Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 09:15:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Judy Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ? To: How to use Revolution [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The difference is that, in flight school, the person has a dedicated 8 to whatever hours of instruction. == On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Mark Brownell wrote: If you think just ten hours is not enough consider this. There are two schools for pilot training. In the less expensive, less structured version the instructor evaluates the student to consider the student ready to solo. There is an allowable window of eight to sixteen hours of actual instructed flying/training where the instructor determines when or if ever the student is allowed to solo. If you can turn excellent students loose in an airplane with just eight hours flight training then ten hours might be a pretty good window into DreamCard. Anyway, what's to stop them from getting the thirty day demo version of Rev after that. = Well, I don't have a copy of FAR/AIM 2004 in front of me (it's at the studio with my other flight gear I think), but IIRC there is no such washout 'window' in FARs (it would probably be in Part 61 if there is) although there is now a new requirement for a pre-solo written exam administerd by the instructor, the point being that I think Judy is right, i.e., the decision to solo (NOTE: solo is _not_ the same as Private Certificate which requires 40 hours total) a student is up to the instructor, because different people will be ready at different times. If a person has to leave the program to do something else, how much time will be wasted trying to review what they've already done but forgotten because they couldn't assemble it right then? What are their skill levels and background training? What if they _have_ no skills or background training in developing, but want to learn? Can such a person evaluate their own ability to work with DreamCard in 10 hours? I also think it's a mistake to assume anyone who wants to will consider it affordable to blow a C-note before being confident that they can use it. I've spent more than 10 hours trying to get just one stupid thing I hadn't tried before to work, having no idea at the outset that what I wanted to do would be that difficult or take so long. But, that's just me. OT ASIDE: I'd flown with an instructor for several weeks, spread out over a number of lessons, before he let me go off into the wild blue (well, just close to the landing pattern) on my own -- I'm getting out, but you stay in. I'll hook you up. -- happened too quick to be nervous. Actually, I got to solo twice, once in a glider (Schweizer 2-33), and again in a powered aircraft (Piper Dakota). I love sailplanes after releasing, but I always feel like being towed is scarier than powering my way off the runway. :-) Ken N. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
This debate is never going to end but FWIW, here's a little Marketing 101: Match or exceed your competitors' offers/features. I agree. A Focus Group is also a good idea as well. Derek Bump Dreamscape Software Compress Images Easily with JPEGCompress http://www.dreamscapesoftware.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
At 15:36 01/09/2004 -0500, Chipp Walters wrote: Dan, I agree with you. It all depends on who's perspective you're looking at this from. For me to take 10 hours to evaluate a $99 purchase, doesn't make sense. Of course, for others, it may make sense. I'm curious how many hours other developers spent with trial versions of RR before committing any $$? The first time I played with RR for about 2 hours and then bought it. I probably spent between 20 and 30 hours. I am not a professional user (I have been a professional software developer - but RR is purely for my own leisure activity). I had never used Hypercard (except maybe 30 minutes playing with once), so had no in-built bias towards RR. Of course, I wasn't evaluating spending $99 - I spent the non-US price for Rev Express, plus a year's update, plus a sub to the on-line book - so more like $400. If I had known there was a time limit, I think I'd have been able to do my evaluation comfortably within that time - and I would not still be a user. At the ten hour time-frame, I was very frustrated by RR and Transcript, and wondering why on earth there were all these enthusiastic, smart people on this mail list who were convinced that it was absolutely wonderful; if it hadn't been for them, I'd have abandoned RR then regardless of any time limit. (Actually, I still am frequently frustrated by RR and Transcript - but I also know the other side of the story now :-) -- Alex. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Jan, I don't disagree that it is a different product targeting a different audience, but I still simply cannot fathom that what it would cost the company to offer the same 30-day trial evaluation period would turn out to be a deal killer. Let's think about a particular type of potential Dreamcard user: a public school teacher. This person perhaps reads the MacExpo announcement... or sees something about Revolution in a periodical or on a website or by word of mouth and, thinking this might be something interesting, downloads it. Maybe launches it immediately, maybe not. Eventually, it gets launched. When? probably after the teacher has come home and eaten dinner. Then s/he remembers to check whether Suzy's spelling test score improved any, as s/he has a parent-teacher conference with Suzy's mother the next day. This gets him/her to thinking about the other things s/he needs to do for tomorrow, so s/he launches some other program just to check something really quickly... gets lost in thought, the phone rings, etc etc. And hours can inadvertently get lopped off the very small allotment of 10 hours of use. Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Jan Schenkel wrote: --- Judy Perry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Really, though: what will they lose by upping it to the same 30-day period granted to the digerati? Where Revolution is geared towards programmers, Dreamcard is aimed at the consumer market -- I'm sure future revisions will bring more differences between the products. If I were looking for a tool to make small tools for myself, I'd look at what was available for my immediate needs and how well Dreamcard stacks up against tools in the same market. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Mark, Lucky you ;-) Did I mention my dogs? Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Mark Brownell wrote: As far as the laundry, phone, and kids goes... How do you do that? I need to concentrate when I work at the computer. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
I agree with Dan that I like the approach; just not the number. Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Dan Shafer wrote: One more thing. An arbitrary review period measured in ACTUAL time of usage rather than some number of days passing is, IMNSHO, a very smart and helpful thing. I can't tell you how many trial programs I've downloaded, looked at, figured they were worth a deeper look, and went back to some period of time later only to find that not only had the demo expired without my having time to get to know the product, but downloading a new time-limited demo wasn't feasible because of the way the publisher handled the lockout. With Dreamcard, you could, e.g., open the product, watch a video or two, download the PDFs, then quit Rev, print out the PDFs and go read them at your leisure. Come back some arbitrary time later and try another video or even poke at building something that was described in one of the PDFs. Ten may not turn out to be the right number, but the approach seems to me to be very wise. I congratulate RunRev for this decision and predict it will pay large dividends. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
RealBasic has ten days. I would _not_ have made the decision to buy into Runtime Revolution if a ten hour limit had been imposed. Keith Hutchison Balance-Infosystems.Com postgresql - mysql - dbf Foxpro - Delphi - MS Access - REALbasic http://balance-infosystems.com http://realopen.org ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Which in my opinion, is also too small a time frame to evaluate a rich product. - Original Message - From: Keith Hutchison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: How to use Revolution [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2004 8:16 AM Subject: Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ? RealBasic has ten days. I would _not_ have made the decision to buy into Runtime Revolution if a ten hour limit had been imposed. Keith Hutchison Balance-Infosystems.Com postgresql - mysql - dbf Foxpro - Delphi - MS Access - REALbasic http://balance-infosystems.com http://realopen.org ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
Exactly. On Sep 1, 2004, at 6:20 PM, Ken Norris (dialup) wrote: What if they _have_ no skills or background training in developing, but want to learn? Can such a person evaluate their own ability to work with DreamCard in 10 hours? I also think it's a mistake to assume anyone who wants to will consider it affordable to blow a C-note before being confident that they can use it. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
This debate is never going to end but FWIW, here's a little Marketing 101: Match or exceed your competitors' offers/features. True, but there's an additional way to look at it. For example, Southwest Airlines initially did not focus on competing with other airlines for existing business. Instead, they focused on what would entice long-distance drivers into flying. They succesfully launched themselves by selling airfare to people that would have otherwise driven for their trips. Of course now they now compete across the board, but that's what got them off the tarmac. I would assume the 10-hour trial was based on some reasoning--some studies of the target market? Personally, I detest time limits. Feels like a time bomb is on my machine. I would prefer a Made with Trial version flagrantly stamped on top of all cards until a license is purchased. John ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
As far as I remember, at least one list member contributing to this thread pointed out that nothing can prevent a potential Revolution buyer to get a 30-day trial licence. This should definitely be stressed by the Rev team, as only on such a condition a 10-hour limit for a Dreamcard version could have a trace of reasonableness. The ten-hour limit then would have the only purpose to find out the differences between a full version of Revolution and the Dreamcard variant - after the 30-day trial version had been examined in detail. Maybe this is what the Rev team had in mind, but did not manage to pronounce it properly? -- Wilhelm Sanke http://www.sank.org ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Excellent idea :-) I would assume the 10-hour trial was based on some reasoning--some studies of the target market? Personally, I detest time limits. Feels like a time bomb is on my machine. I would prefer a Made with Trial version flagrantly stamped on top of all cards until a license is purchased. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 03:56 PM, John Ballard wrote: For example, Southwest Airlines initially did not focus on competing with other airlines for existing business. Instead, they focused on what would entice long-distance drivers into flying. They succesfully launched themselves by selling airfare to people that would have otherwise driven for their trips. Of course now they now compete across the board, but that's what got them off the tarmac. I would assume the 10-hour trial was based on some reasoning--some studies of the target market? Personally, I detest time limits. Feels like a time bomb is on my machine. I would prefer a Made with Trial version flagrantly stamped on top of all cards until a license is purchased. John Brilliant strategy, Southwest Air that is. I keep thinking that a save restricted demo version of Dreamcard that could open tutorial stacks without any time restrictions would get all the resentment caused by a time limitation out of the customer's mindset. Just make it not capable of saving or standalone construction. Then a set of instruction modules could be opened to learn programing with. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
No. No. No. A thousand times NO. This means a person can't start a project one night and open it the next to work on--frustrating when you are trying out Photoshop, deadly for a programming tool. Even a 10 hour trial is far better than this. But I like the Made with Dreamcard Demo watermark with a 30 day time limit best of all! M On Sep 1, 2004, at 8:00 PM, Mark Brownell wrote: Just make it not capable of saving or standalone construction. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On 9/1/04 5:12 PM, Judy Perry wrote: Mark, Lucky you ;-) Did I mention my dogs? Tie the kids and the dogs together. Put a Maypole in the middle. You should get a half hour or so to yourself. Judy On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Mark Brownell wrote: As far as the laundry, phone, and kids goes... How do you do that? I need to concentrate when I work at the computer. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution -- Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED] HyperActive Software | http://www.hyperactivesw.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer
If they have _no_ skills or background training in software but want to learn, why should they learn for free? RunRev's not in the business of teaching programming, it's in the business of SELLING a development tool. And this whole discussion is, at least for now, kind of moot because: (a) RunRev aren't likely to change their policy without a lot more feedback from users of the Dreamcard product; and (b) As someone has already pointed out a couple of times, you can always get the 30-day trial of Rev. This feels to me like a tempest in a teapot when we should all be beating up on and extolling the virtues (and finding the flaws) of the new release. So I'm going to shut up on this subject now and get back to my real love: programming in Rev! Yoohoo! On Sep 1, 2004, at 3:32 PM, Marian Petrides wrote: Exactly. On Sep 1, 2004, at 6:20 PM, Ken Norris (dialup) wrote: What if they _have_ no skills or background training in developing, but want to learn? Can such a person evaluate their own ability to work with DreamCard in 10 hours? I also think it's a mistake to assume anyone who wants to will consider it affordable to blow a C-note before being confident that they can use it. ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Revolutionary Author of Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought http://www.revolutionpros.com for more info Available at Runtime Revolution Store (http://www.runrev.com/RevPress) ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
On Wednesday, September 1, 2004, at 05:09 PM, Marian Petrides wrote: No. No. No. A thousand times NO. On Sep 1, 2004, at 8:00 PM, Mark Brownell wrote: Just make it not capable of saving or standalone construction. I did suggest that they open training stacks/modules to learn important programming concepts. If you want to learn how to program self directed then get the full/30 day version. This thread is about first experiences in an IDE. Mark ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Why 10 hours for a newbie and 30 days for a programmer ?
Ludovic Thébault wrote: Hello, Why the Dreamcard trial is limited to ten hours ? A newbie need time to discover a language, to discover programming, or simply to discover a new program (especially a rich program like Rev). 10 hours? Must be a bug. I've never even heard of a software product with such a small window for evaluation, and as you note a proprietary programming language will arguably require more time than most other types of software. 30 days should be a minimum. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
