Re: Revolution Media 4.x and Revolution Player 3.x

[Luis]

Hiya,

The Player makes distribution easier, as in there not being a need to  
download and install revMedia in order to see the stacks: Slaps the  
stacks onto a USB stick with the Player and can show it off to anyone  
without having to get them to 'have to' install revMedia.


Cheers,

Luis.


On 12 Nov 2009, at 20:32, Richmond Mathewson wrote:


Jan Schenkel wrote:

With revMedia 4.0 being free, why would we still need a Player?
The whole idea of giving revMedia away for free, is to let  
everyone share in the fun - running stacks, deploying them in  
webpages and letting others take them apart without the ability to  
password-protect your scripts.
Don't panic, revStudio and revEnterprise can still password- 
protect scripts and these stacks will work just fine in revMedia.  
But revMedia is about sharing with the rest of the world, and  
getting more people to try out the revPlatform for themselves.




I can think of one reason why one might want a Player:

Imagine a cash-strapped teacher designing a stack with revMedia;

they might think it a bit too much to expect students to go through
the whole jingbang of registering for revMedia, downloading it
and installing it a bit of a clunky way to deliver a "quick-n-dirty"
educational "media-bite".

this might also be applied in situations where there are a number of
students with computers who do not have internet access (this, oddly
enough, is always overlooked when these arguments come up).

A Player/Runner + stack will have less of a footprint than revMedia
+ stack

As an advocate of equipping the under-privileged in this world with
old computers I believe that a Player/Runner is essential; especially
one that will run stacks on forms of Linux.

-- 
-

To personalise this I would like to point out that, while I own
Rev Studio 4 it does not work on my Pentium 3s running Ubuntu 5.10;
nor does revMedia 4.

I have yet to find out how standalones made with 4 'do' on these  
computers;


It may well be that they are just too RAM-hungry to function;

a Player/Runner might solve this problem.
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Re: Revolution Media 4.x and Revolution Player 3.x

[Jan Schenkel]

--- On Thu, 11/12/09, Dom  wrote:
> Jan Schenkel  wrote:
> 
> > With revMedia 4.0 being free, why would we still need
> a Player?
> 
> Agreed -- but with a caveat:
> you talk of persons who are computer-litterate...
> 
> Think about a person, scared with computers, to which you
> give a
> stack... and ?
> a whole development package??
> 
> Or a classroom, as Richmond says!
> 
> Maybe, also, the question is beginning to go obsolete --
> who, nowadays,
> still gives stacks to other persons? on a disc*, perhaps?
> 
> A bunch of years ago, I put some HyperCard (and MetaCard)
> stacks on the
> web, along with a "Player" or StackRunner (before the epoch
> where an
> official one was available)
> 
> It seems to that RunRev is going to evolve to the net --
> and it's good
> :-)
> Sure, with a revlet immediately available on the net, there
> is no need
> for a Player ;-)
> 
> * Apple recently clarified the difference between a "disc"
> and a "disk"
> ;-)
> 

While I agree with you in priciple thata a pure player environment is safest 
for computer users without technical knowledge, revMedia is not that different 
from the original HyperCard setup. I don't think double-clicking or going to 
the File menu to Open a stack, is that difficult to grasp.
Now for deployment, a revlet is fine in an internet-connected world - and you 
can even send people a zip archive with an html page and a revlet that they can 
run offline, as long as the have the revWeb plugin. And you can still buy 
revStudio/revEnterprise if you want to build standalone applications.

Jan Schenkel
=
Quartam Reports & PDF Library for Revolution


=
"As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La 
Rochefoucauld)


  
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Re: Revolution Media 4.x and Revolution Player 3.x

[Dom]

Jan Schenkel  wrote:

> With revMedia 4.0 being free, why would we still need a Player?

Agreed -- but with a caveat:
you talk of persons who are computer-litterate...

Think about a person, scared with computers, to which you give a
stack... and ?
a whole development package??

Or a classroom, as Richmond says!

Maybe, also, the question is beginning to go obsolete -- who, nowadays,
still gives stacks to other persons? on a disc*, perhaps?

A bunch of years ago, I put some HyperCard (and MetaCard) stacks on the
web, along with a "Player" or StackRunner (before the epoch where an
official one was available)

It seems to that RunRev is going to evolve to the net -- and it's good
:-)
Sure, with a revlet immediately available on the net, there is no need
for a Player ;-)

* Apple recently clarified the difference between a "disc" and a "disk"
;-)


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Re: Revolution Media 4.x and Revolution Player 3.x

[Richmond Mathewson]

Jan Schenkel wrote:

With revMedia 4.0 being free, why would we still need a Player?
The whole idea of giving revMedia away for free, is to let everyone share in 
the fun - running stacks, deploying them in webpages and letting others take 
them apart without the ability to password-protect your scripts.
Don't panic, revStudio and revEnterprise can still password-protect scripts and 
these stacks will work just fine in revMedia. But revMedia is about sharing 
with the rest of the world, and getting more people to try out the revPlatform 
for themselves.

  

I can think of one reason why one might want a Player:

Imagine a cash-strapped teacher designing a stack with revMedia;

they might think it a bit too much to expect students to go through
the whole jingbang of registering for revMedia, downloading it
and installing it a bit of a clunky way to deliver a "quick-n-dirty"
educational "media-bite".

this might also be applied in situations where there are a number of
students with computers who do not have internet access (this, oddly
enough, is always overlooked when these arguments come up).

A Player/Runner + stack will have less of a footprint than revMedia
+ stack

As an advocate of equipping the under-privileged in this world with
old computers I believe that a Player/Runner is essential; especially
one that will run stacks on forms of Linux.

---
To personalise this I would like to point out that, while I own
Rev Studio 4 it does not work on my Pentium 3s running Ubuntu 5.10;
nor does revMedia 4.

I have yet to find out how standalones made with 4 'do' on these computers;

It may well be that they are just too RAM-hungry to function;

a Player/Runner might solve this problem.
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Re: Revolution Media 4.x and Revolution Player 3.x

[Jan Schenkel]

With revMedia 4.0 being free, why would we still need a Player?
The whole idea of giving revMedia away for free, is to let everyone share in 
the fun - running stacks, deploying them in webpages and letting others take 
them apart without the ability to password-protect your scripts.
Don't panic, revStudio and revEnterprise can still password-protect scripts and 
these stacks will work just fine in revMedia. But revMedia is about sharing 
with the rest of the world, and getting more people to try out the revPlatform 
for themselves.

Jan Schenkel
=
Quartam Reports & PDF Library for Revolution
<http://www.quartam.com>

=
"As we grow older, we grow both wiser and more foolish at the same time."  (La 
Rochefoucauld)


--- On Thu, 11/5/09, Dom  wrote:

> From: Dom 
> Subject: Revolution Media 4.x and Revolution Player 3.x
> To: use-revolution@lists.runrev.com
> Date: Thursday, November 5, 2009, 10:38 AM
> As a former user of Revolution Media
> 3.x, I used Revolution Player to
> run stacks without launching the development
> environment...
> 
> I am wondering if I still can use the old Revolution Player
> (3.x) to run
> stacks created with the new Revolution Media 4.x?
> 
> 
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> 


  
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Revolution Media 4.x and Revolution Player 3.x

[Dom]

As a former user of Revolution Media 3.x, I used Revolution Player to
run stacks without launching the development environment...

I am wondering if I still can use the old Revolution Player (3.x) to run
stacks created with the new Revolution Media 4.x?


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[ANN] Sale on Revolution Media

[Bill Marriott]

Hi folks,

I just wanted to drop a short note that Revolution Media is $10 off until 
Nov 30. You don't need a coupon code to take advantage of this offer, it's 
marked down in the store. A great stocking stuffer for those special 
someones who want to learn programming or could benefit from having a tool 
like Revolution in their repertoire!

- Bill 



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4th of July Weekend: Get a Free Copy of Revolution Media

[Lynn Fredricks]

Hello all,

Mirye is running a promotion with selected partners for the 4th of July
weekend - any order $50 or over comes with a free copy of Revolution Media.
One copy per customer.

This applies to products purchased through these venues 

Mirye Online Store (http://www.miryestore.com)
Paradigma Online Store (http://www.paradigmasoft.com)
Revolution Orders via Academic Superstore, Programmers Paradise, Content
Paradise, Renderosity
Meshbox Design or Meshbox 2D (http://www.meshbox.com or
http://www.meshbox2d.com)

Content Paradise and Mirye also are offering $100 off new licenses of
Studio, and $200 off new licenses of Enterprise.

To participate in this offer, you must place your order before July 8, 12:01
AM.

Because of how sourcing works on Revolution manuals, we havent gotten them
into our main store yet. If you'd like to order a manual and use this offer,
just send me a note off list.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
Mirye Software Publishing
http://www.mirye.com

Mirye Community NING
http://miryesoftware.ning.com 

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RE: Mirye Software Sponsors BarCamp Seattle 2008; Free Revolution Media for Participants

[Lynn Fredricks]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Phil Davis
> Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 11:02 AM
> To: How to use Revolution
> Subject: Re: Mirye Software Sponsors BarCamp Seattle 2008; 
> Free Revolution Media for Participants
> 
> Sorry, I can't go... it happens on Father's Day weekend. 
> Otherwise I would definitely consider it.
> Phil Davis

Not a problem, Phil. It went pretty well. Actually David Lamp showed up!

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Proactive International, LLC

- Because it is about who you know.(tm)
http://www.proactive-intl.com 

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Get a Free Copy of Revolution Media at BarCamp 2008 in Seattle, June 14-15, 2008

[Lynn Fredricks]

Hello all,

If you haven't visited the Mirye Software website recently, you haven't seen
that Mirye Software Publishing is a sponsor for this year's BarCamp Seattle
2008 - http://barcamp.org/BarCampSeattle

BarCamp Seattle 2008 takes place June 14-15 at Adobe Conference Center, 701
N 34th St., Seattle (Fremont).

What is BarCamp?

BarCamp is an international network of user generated conferences - open,
participatory workshop-events, whose content is provided by participants -
often focusing on early-stage web applications, and related open source
technologies, social protocols, and open data formats.

What is BarCamp Seattle 2008 (Rated M for...Tara Brown Comments) - video by
Robert Scoble (aka Scobleizer) :
http://qik.com/video/99751. Watch to the end (the "up from Portland"
reference is us!). Because of the large software community in the region,
this is an event to see. Tara is one of the organizers of the Seattle event
and product manager of Microsoft Office Live.

An article on CNN Money explains why these conferences are such a joy to go
to: http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/05/technology/business2_unconference0606/

A swag disk from us features a free copy of Valentina Community Server and a
free copy of Revolution Media Edition.

I am going to lead a BarCamp style "discussion" of Revolution - anyone in
the area? We'd welcome any and all help and participation from the
community. This will expose Revolution to a large number of developers and
"influencers" in the region (listen to tara's comments).

Breakfast and lunch is included, and best of all, its free.

If you are in the NorthWest, come and join us! Ill be there both days.

Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Paradigma Software
http://www.paradigmasoft.com

Valentina SQL Server: The Ultra-fast, Royalty Free Database Server 

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Re: Mirye Software Sponsors BarCamp Seattle 2008; Free Revolution Media for Participants

[Phil Davis]

Sorry, I can't go... it happens on Father's Day weekend. Otherwise I 
would definitely consider it.

Phil Davis


Lynn Fredricks wrote:

Mirye Software Sponsors BarCamp Seattle 2008; Free Revolution Media for
Participants

Mirye Software, publishers of the cross-platform application development
system Runtime Revolution, along with partner Paradigma Software, are
sponsoring BarCamp Seattle 2008.

BarCamp is an international network of user generated conferences - open,
participatory workshop-events, whose content is provided by participants -
often focusing on early-stage web applications, and related open source
technologies, social protocols, and open data formats. BarCamp events are
planned based on an open grid, where participants can suggest and present
topics by filling in the communal planning grid. BarCamp is a free,
volunteer run event, with venues and meals covered by sponsors.

BarCamp Seattle 2008 is being held June 14-15 at the Adobe Fremont
Conference Center at 801 N 34th St, Seattle, WA 98103, from 10 AM - 5 PM
Saturday, and 10 AM - 1 PM Sunday.

Participants at BarCamp Seattle 2008 will be able to receive a free copy of
Mirye Runtime Revolution Media Edition. A discussion session is planned
called Runtime Revolution: HyperCard Resurrection. Runtime Revolution Media
Edition allows people with no previous experience in creating software to
create cross-platform applications and multimedia projects, then deploy them
on the Windows and Mac OS X platforms. Participants can sign up at the event
to get a free license, which is fully upgradable to Revolution Studio.
Valentina Community Server, the free, Linux-based database server from
Paradigma Software will also be available on media at the event.

Participants can sign up for a BarCamp Seattle 2008 badge in advance of the
conference at http://pathable.com/events/barcampseattle.

BarCamp Seattle 2008 is expected to have a broad audience of the software
industry, from developers and managers from leading companies such as
Microsoft, Amazon and a Adobe to a broad spectrum of Seattle area start ups
to academic site administrators. The recently held BarCamp Portland 2008 had
participants from Microsoft, Oracle, Yahoo!, open source Drupal project,
Open Source Labs, About Us, Go Life Mobile, and Paradigma Software.

More information is available on the Mirye website at http://www.mirye.com.

About Mirye Software

Mirye Software Publishing is a leading developer and title publisher of
cross-platform titles for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux, and is the publisher
of Runtime Revolution. Mirye specializes in cross-platform digital creation
and development tools and professional content. These include best-of-class
authoring and development tools that enable digital creators and developers
to plan, build, enrich and ship solutions through every venue.


--
Phil Davis

PDS Labs
Professional Software Development
http://pdslabs.net

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Mirye Software Sponsors BarCamp Seattle 2008; Free Revolution Media for Participants

[Lynn Fredricks]

Mirye Software Sponsors BarCamp Seattle 2008; Free Revolution Media for
Participants

Mirye Software, publishers of the cross-platform application development
system Runtime Revolution, along with partner Paradigma Software, are
sponsoring BarCamp Seattle 2008.

BarCamp is an international network of user generated conferences - open,
participatory workshop-events, whose content is provided by participants -
often focusing on early-stage web applications, and related open source
technologies, social protocols, and open data formats. BarCamp events are
planned based on an open grid, where participants can suggest and present
topics by filling in the communal planning grid. BarCamp is a free,
volunteer run event, with venues and meals covered by sponsors.

BarCamp Seattle 2008 is being held June 14-15 at the Adobe Fremont
Conference Center at 801 N 34th St, Seattle, WA 98103, from 10 AM - 5 PM
Saturday, and 10 AM - 1 PM Sunday.

Participants at BarCamp Seattle 2008 will be able to receive a free copy of
Mirye Runtime Revolution Media Edition. A discussion session is planned
called Runtime Revolution: HyperCard Resurrection. Runtime Revolution Media
Edition allows people with no previous experience in creating software to
create cross-platform applications and multimedia projects, then deploy them
on the Windows and Mac OS X platforms. Participants can sign up at the event
to get a free license, which is fully upgradable to Revolution Studio.
Valentina Community Server, the free, Linux-based database server from
Paradigma Software will also be available on media at the event.

Participants can sign up for a BarCamp Seattle 2008 badge in advance of the
conference at http://pathable.com/events/barcampseattle.

BarCamp Seattle 2008 is expected to have a broad audience of the software
industry, from developers and managers from leading companies such as
Microsoft, Amazon and a Adobe to a broad spectrum of Seattle area start ups
to academic site administrators. The recently held BarCamp Portland 2008 had
participants from Microsoft, Oracle, Yahoo!, open source Drupal project,
Open Source Labs, About Us, Go Life Mobile, and Paradigma Software.

More information is available on the Mirye website at http://www.mirye.com.

About Mirye Software

Mirye Software Publishing is a leading developer and title publisher of
cross-platform titles for Mac OS X, Windows and Linux, and is the publisher
of Runtime Revolution. Mirye specializes in cross-platform digital creation
and development tools and professional content. These include best-of-class
authoring and development tools that enable digital creators and developers
to plan, build, enrich and ship solutions through every venue.

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Black Friday Specials from Mirye on Revolution Media and Valentina for Revolution

[Lynn Fredricks]

Hello everyone,

Our launch of Mirye put the collective Mirye products, including Runtime
Revolution, in front of two new communities that amount to a total of 1
million registered members. It is now possible to get Revolution through
both sites - Content Paradise and Renderosity.

Mirye's online store is currently running a number of specials that run
through end of day Monday November 26:

Valentina for Revolution Advanced is 50% Off. This includes the runtimes for
Windows, Mac OS X and Linux, plus a copy of Valentina Studio Admin.

http://www.miryestore.com/product.php?productid=16159&cat=0&page=1&featured

Revolution Media Edition with Free Toon Santa's Christmas Classics.
Revolution Media is the entry level media version of Revolution and a great
way to get started with Revolution without much pain in the wallet.
Revolution Media Edition is $49, and runs on Windows and Mac OS X, and
deploys to both. Toon Santa's Christmas Classics is a set of 10 royalty free
traditional Christmas songs/soundtracks you can incorporate into your games,
applications, and elsewhere (normally $25 for this set). This particular
offer is also available through Content Paradise and Renderosity.

http://www.miryestore.com/product.php?productid=16133&cat=0&page=1&featured


Best regards,

Lynn Fredricks
President
Proactive International, LLC

- Because it is about who you know.(tm)
http://www.proactive-intl.com 

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Re: can Revolution Media 2 be used to build legacy stacks for CGI?

[J. Landman Gay]

Andre Garzia wrote:

Hello Folks,
I know that Rev Media tags the stacks it saves as "belonging" to itself. 
Can

it be used to create legacy stacks for CGI use?


No, Media stacks are 2.7 only.

--
Jacqueline Landman Gay | [EMAIL PROTECTED]
HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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can Revolution Media 2 be used to build legacy stacks for CGI?

[Andre Garzia]

Hello Folks,
I know that Rev Media tags the stacks it saves as "belonging" to itself. Can
it be used to create legacy stacks for CGI use?

Andre
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Wolfgang Bereuter]

On 29.06.2006, at 23:06, Chipp Walters wrote:


No argument here. Microsoft's business practice is deplorable...no,
criminal.
depends on your point of view. How many people has this business  
practice killed? How man companies? How man lifes and human been  
destroyed? How many bilions dollars have we all paid for the  
strategic incompatiblility. How many bilions for expansive licenses,  
etc, etc, etc



Mean-spirited as well. You know a corporate culture like
theirs is always driven top-down. Makes me wonder what Gates is REALLY
going to do with his billions marked for charity.

Answer is easy: money! And politics and did I mentioned: money?


Hmm, perhaps a spot
in heaven IS FOR SALE?

No! Thanks god, its not availiable for money.
But he wont need that, when he will rebirth as a Pinguin, because  
Pinguins dont need money...


regards
wolfgang bereuter
--
Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See 

traips! photolearning trainingsmaps
...
http://www.traips.org
http://www.internettrainer.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
Edelhofg. 17/11, A-1180 Wien, Austria
Tel: ++43/1/ 479 6410



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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Dan Shafer]

Well, I'm not sure I agree with all of your analysis, Devin.

Browser masking certainly results in under-reporting of browsers like Safari
that can (or even must) masquerade as others, but you can't mask the OS very
easily.

On 6/30/06, Devin Asay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



On Jun 30, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:

> To me, the "units sold" and "installed base" numbers are guidelines
> but not
> real indicators of a particular system's real penetration which is
> measured
> in something I'd call "units in daily use by humans."  That figure
> can't be
> obtained, of course, but one figure that CAN be obtained is the mix of
> computer operating systems visiting various Web sites with logs
> that can
> track the OS in use.
>
> Given that a large majority of machines in human use at any given
> time are
> navigating the Internet, that would be at least a useful
> measurement of the
> degree of actual market penetration. There are a LOT of WIndows
> machines
> (and, I'm sure, old Macs as well) being used for doorstops,
> paperweights,
> and lying in landfills and other states of disuse.
>
> By that standard, OS X and Linux run 3-5% each and Windows at just
> about
> 90%. The stats I find most reliable are these:
>
> http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

But even these stats are problematic. I found it curious that Safari
didn't even appear on the list, while Opera does. The problem is that
Safari, along with some other browsers, masks its identity so that it
can access some poorly written sites that require a specific browser
(usually IE for Windows.) So not only is OS X underrepresented on
sites like this, IE's presence may be exaggerated.

Devin


Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University

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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Devin Asay]

On Jun 30, 2006, at 1:20 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:

To me, the "units sold" and "installed base" numbers are guidelines  
but not
real indicators of a particular system's real penetration which is  
measured
in something I'd call "units in daily use by humans."  That figure  
can't be

obtained, of course, but one figure that CAN be obtained is the mix of
computer operating systems visiting various Web sites with logs  
that can

track the OS in use.

Given that a large majority of machines in human use at any given  
time are
navigating the Internet, that would be at least a useful  
measurement of the
degree of actual market penetration. There are a LOT of WIndows  
machines
(and, I'm sure, old Macs as well) being used for doorstops,  
paperweights,

and lying in landfills and other states of disuse.

By that standard, OS X and Linux run 3-5% each and Windows at just  
about

90%. The stats I find most reliable are these:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp


But even these stats are problematic. I found it curious that Safari  
didn't even appear on the list, while Opera does. The problem is that  
Safari, along with some other browsers, masks its identity so that it  
can access some poorly written sites that require a specific browser  
(usually IE for Windows.) So not only is OS X underrepresented on  
sites like this, IE's presence may be exaggerated.


Devin


Devin Asay
Humanities Technology and Research Support Center
Brigham Young University

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Dan Shafer]

To me, the "units sold" and "installed base" numbers are guidelines but not
real indicators of a particular system's real penetration which is measured
in something I'd call "units in daily use by humans."  That figure can't be
obtained, of course, but one figure that CAN be obtained is the mix of
computer operating systems visiting various Web sites with logs that can
track the OS in use.

Given that a large majority of machines in human use at any given time are
navigating the Internet, that would be at least a useful measurement of the
degree of actual market penetration. There are a LOT of WIndows machines
(and, I'm sure, old Macs as well) being used for doorstops, paperweights,
and lying in landfills and other states of disuse.

By that standard, OS X and Linux run 3-5% each and Windows at just about
90%. The stats I find most reliable are these:

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp



On 6/29/06, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On 6/29/06, Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Whether or not one agrees with the two dozen governments around the
> world who've found Microsoft guilty of sweeping anti-trust violations,
> however that market share was acquired there's no denying it exists.

No argument here. Microsoft's business practice is deplorable...no,
criminal. Mean-spirited as well. You know a corporate culture like
theirs is always driven top-down. Makes me wonder what Gates is REALLY
going to do with his billions marked for charity. Hmm, perhaps a spot
in heaven IS FOR SALE?

-Chipp
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/29/06, Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Whether or not one agrees with the two dozen governments around the
world who've found Microsoft guilty of sweeping anti-trust violations,
however that market share was acquired there's no denying it exists.


No argument here. Microsoft's business practice is deplorable...no,
criminal. Mean-spirited as well. You know a corporate culture like
theirs is always driven top-down. Makes me wonder what Gates is REALLY
going to do with his billions marked for charity. Hmm, perhaps a spot
in heaven IS FOR SALE?

-Chipp
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

Chipp Walters wrote:
> In anycase, I seriously doubt either you or Stephen can
> make a real case for the Mac having a 20% marketshare

Maybe Stephen did intend that, but read it differently.

Speaking only for myself, I've never made such a claim about total 
market share, nor would I:  The largest market share based on unit sales 
that I've ever seen for Apple was never higher than 10%, more than twice 
the highest figure since Steve's been back.


Remember, I'm the one who's been lobbying for more XP-native features 
like native-looking menus instead of OS X-specific things like drawers. 
I know which customers pay my bills.  :)


Whether or not one agrees with the two dozen governments around the 
world who've found Microsoft guilty of sweeping anti-trust violations, 
however that market share was acquired there's no denying it exists.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Chipp Walters]

Yes, but that 84% includes ALL OS'es. Whereas Stephen said:

"*I figure once you whittle down all the point-of-sale, CNC drilling
machines, and ATMs the actual HUMAN used market share of Macs vs PC
is more around 20%"

The 84% doesn't suppose the other 16% is for Macs, quite the contrary.
As I mentioned, the largest marketshare I could find for Macs was less
than 5%. In anycase, I seriously doubt either you or Stephen can make
a real case for the Mac having a 20% marketshare (though there are
many of us who do wish it had a larger marketshare, if only for the
sake of competition to MS).

-Chipp

On 6/29/06, Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Chipp Walters wrote:

> The smallest marketshare I could find for Windows was 84%

Not too far off the original poster's estimate of 80%.

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[David Brooks]

On Jun 28, 2006, at 11:29 AM, Dan Shafer wrote:

OK, so how many of us would be willing to throw, say, a grand at a  
developer
or team to do this project? Delivering a Rev stack/app in DHTML  
would be

such an awesome tool that I'd use it daily.


If a grand means $1,000.00, then I surely would spend at least that  
much.


Dave B.

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

Chipp Walters wrote:


The smallest marketshare I could find for Windows was 84%


Not too far off the original poster's estimate of 80%.

:)

--
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 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Chipp Walters]

The smallest marketshare I could find for Windows was 84%, which I
kind of doubt-- IMO it's too small. I'm not too big on 'projections,'
especially the ones about computers. Didn't they predict the end of
computers around 2000 ;-)

Frankly, 58% in 2007 seems laughable. Though I guess if your counting
ALL cellphones, then you could be right..but for that matter shouldn't
we include all GPS systems? And what about those little computers
which control anti-braking on cars? And let's not forget those
microcontrollers they put on every kitchen appiance. Hmm, now we've
got MS down to under 10% market share. Geez, time to buy PUTS on MSFT.
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

Chipp Walters wrote:


On 6/28/06, Stephen Barncard  wrote:


What about the other 20%*?


Funny, the most I could find the Mac had was:

"Currently Apple has a US market share of 4.5 percent and a global
market share of 2.5 percent."

--http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2005/07/apple_market_share/


Mac isn't the only non-Windows system out there.  There are a few 
flavors of UNIX, more than a dozen popular Linux distros, and at least 
one Newton user in Brazil.


This article from about 8 months earlier than the one you cited goes out 
on a limb to suggest that Windows marketshare will not merely continue 
to decline, but rather dramatically to about 58% by 2007, once PDAs, 
cell phones, and other OS environments are taken into account:



Of course those systems aren't running OS X either. :)

This article discusses some of the difficulties in establishing good 
methodologies for measuring marketshare of Linux vs Windows:



And of course there are other factors, like the figures for specific 
markets like education where Macs are reported to have a 
disproportionate showing (some say 14, not anywhere near its peak of 30% 
in 1999 but not bad):



I don't believe unit sales tell the whole story of human usage, esp. 
when you take into account that most non-human-driven computers aren't 
Macs (factory automation and the like; I know one shop where most people 
use Macs and a single floor manager runs 10 Wintel boxes drive 
machinery; in a head count it's 10-to-1 Mac, but in a box count it 
appears even), and one would need to account for system longevity and a 
great many other things to figure out how many actual people are using 
each system.


But while unit sales may be a weak measurement, it's the simplest to 
derive so it's the one most commonly used.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Chipp Walters]

On 6/28/06, Stephen Barncard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



What about the other 20%*?


Funny, the most I could find the Mac had was:

"Currently Apple has a US market share of 4.5 percent and a global
market share of 2.5 percent."

--http://www.andybudd.com/archives/2005/07/apple_market_share/

Guess you could do one of those ads for Apple?
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Peter T. Evensen]

My main point is that it is a plug-in.  I haven't really looked at it's 
capabilities.  The problem is, it requires a plug-in to be installed on the 
user's machine.


At 02:43 PM 6/28/2006, you wrote:

Dear Peter and All,

I would'nt be too negative but two Rebol geeks of my friends could
explain lots about the Rebol IE plug-in (Olivier Auverlot, the writer
of the french's Eyrolles Rebol programmers reference book, and
François Jouen of the "Ecole Pratiques de Hautes-Etudes" institute).
In short, this plug-in is probably not dedicated to be used as a
professional grade tool.


Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

Andre Garzia wrote:


I work in windows only...

also, REBOL is a very nice language created by one of the guys from  
the AMIGA era... very nice indeed.


But it's not match to Rev when it comes to create desktop apps.


Agreed.  Way back when Rebol was enjoying its 15 minutes of fame I gave 
it a good look, and found that i just didn't look as nice as Rev stuff. 
Part of that is that they didn't double-buffer their windows, so the 
redraws were abysmal; maybe they've fixed that since then.


But overall, aside from a browser plugin I've seen nothing in Rebol that 
couldn't be done in Rev.  And if someone took the time to make a handy 
library (back when I had time on my hands I thought of calling it 
"Revol" ) to provide one-liners for anything Rebol does that isn't 
already a one-liner in Transcript.


When it was the only game in town, Rebol was way cool.  But that was a 
long time ago, and Rev has grown far beyond it


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Andre Garzia]

I work in windows only...

also, REBOL is a very nice language created by one of the guys from  
the AMIGA era... very nice indeed.


But it's not match to Rev when it comes to create desktop apps.

Andre

On Jun 28, 2006, at 10:07 AM, Stephen Barncard wrote:


I thought that point was moot if it installs in 2 seconds!

The problem wiht rebol is that it is yet another plug-in.  The  
reason schools (for example) want web/browser-delivered content is  
that they don't have to go in and touch every workstation.




--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Andre Garzia]

Before switching to Rev I was a REBOL coder, I have very fond  
memories of REBOL...



On Jun 28, 2006, at 8:58 AM, Bob Warren wrote:


Dan Shafer wrote:
>
Delivering a Rev stack/app in DHTML would be
such an awesome tool that I'd use it daily.


If you chappies discussing this thread (most of which is above my  
head) think that comparison would be of any value, I suggest you  
visit -


http://www.rebol.com

- to see what Carl Sassenrath is doing. Click on the following link:

New REBOL Browser Plugin - New!
New capabilities! Plus support for Firefox/Mozilla/Etc. and Opera

Further information on this development can be found under Carl's  
Blog entitled "Browser Plugin Update".


The Windows only version is very much older, and you can see a demo  
of it (including the fully automatic installation of the plugin) at  
my own site:


http://www.howsoft.com/runrev/vector_graphics_in_revolution.htm

Scroll down to the picture of my sister-in-law's knitting machine  
and you will find the instructions for the demo:


"The above shows a Rebol program (script) running via a plugin in  
the Internet Explorer/altBrowser. It's a slideshow with 10 raster  
images. If you want to see how this works in the Internet Explorer  
using a PC (and also in an altBrowser stack once you acquire it),  
simply navigate to http://www.howsoft.com/photos for a demo. Rebol  
will install its plugin automatically (2 seconds)**, and then the  
pictures will be downloaded. Then, you can see the slideshow in the  
browser."


[** In the old days - Win XP SP1 - it used to take about 2 seconds  
to install this plugin automatically, but now - with SP2 - you have  
to give it permission. Nevertheless, it is very quick. What takes  
longer is the download of the photos for the demo, but this has  
nothing to do with the Rebol plugin itself.]



As far as I can see, this development is relevant to what Rev may  
or may not decide to implement in various ways, both technically  
and also in terms of keeping up with "what's out there". In short,  
just about any program written in Rebol can be run - with no hassle  
- in the Windows Internet Explorer. The same facility for Firefox  
etc. is still in alpha, but will probably be ready this year.  
Everybody speaks about Java, Flash, etc., but nobody seems to be  
really aware of what Rebol are up to. Also, as far as I can see, my  
little demo is highly relevant to the Web presentation of media.


Just thought I'd mention it.

Regards,
Bob





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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Stephen Barncard]

I thought that point was moot if it installs in 2 seconds!

The problem wiht rebol is that it is yet another plug-in.  The 
reason schools (for example) want web/browser-delivered content is 
that they don't have to go in and touch every workstation.




--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Stephen Barncard]

facility for Firefox etc. is still in alpha, but will probably be 
ready this year. Everybody speaks about Java, Flash, etc., but 
nobody seems to be really aware of what Rebol are up to. Also, as 
far as I can see, my little demo is highly relevant to the Web 
presentation of media.



Yeah, I could use something like this.. cool.

except it's moot (again) for Mac users. At least Java Flash, etc. is 
cross-platform. I really get tired of hearing about when 'next big 
things' for the web turn out to be platform specific. Java and Flash 
were inclusive from day one. Late deployment usually means a 
stripped-down version 'for the rest of us'. Witness the fact that 
Skype has been around for 2 years, their PC version can do video, but 
not the Mac.


What about the other 20%*?
Can Rebol be done for the 'other side'? Otherwise it's not very 
useful on the web..a web app should be universal at least for the 
top 2 client OS's.



From the Rebol page: "REBOL Technologies now provides the 
REBOL/Plugin, a new web browser plugin module for Microsoft Internet 
Explorer, Mozilla, Firefox, and other browsers (currently running on 
Windows OS, but we plan to support OSX, Linux, BSD and others in the 
future)."


Sounds wonderful, but again we have promises of 'in the future' - how 
can anyone build a site built on intentionally ignoring 20% of one's 
potential audience?


Well, hell this is a WEB product - why isn't it working on the Mac 
now? This "Windows first" stuff doesn't work for the web.  So my 
question to Carl Sassenrath, the creator of REBOL is: When, if ever?


fyi this guy did work for Apple at one point.




*I figure once you whittle down all the point-of-sale, CNC drilling 
machines, and ATMs the actual HUMAN used market share of Macs vs PC 
is more around 20%




sqb
--
stephen barncard
s a n  f r a n c i s c o
- - -  - - - - - - - - -
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Pierre Sahores]

Dear Peter and All,

I would'nt be too negative but two Rebol geeks of my friends could  
explain lots about the Rebol IE plug-in (Olivier Auverlot, the writer  
of the french's Eyrolles Rebol programmers reference book, and  
François Jouen of the "Ecole Pratiques de Hautes-Etudes" institute).  
In short, this plug-in is probably not dedicated to be used as a  
professional grade tool.


Best,

The problem wiht rebol is that it is yet another plug-in.  The  
reason schools (for example) want web/browser-delivered content is  
that they don't have to go in and touch every workstation.


If Rev could deliver a stack via DHTML/AJAX, that would be the ideal!

I was even pondering writing my own Rev tool to create a Rev stack  
and an DHTML/AJAX version of the same thing.


At 01:58 PM 6/28/2006, you wrote:

Dan Shafer wrote:
>
Delivering a Rev stack/app in DHTML would be
such an awesome tool that I'd use it daily.


If you chappies discussing this thread (most of which is above my  
head) think that comparison would be of any value, I suggest you  
visit -


http://www.rebol.com

- to see what Carl Sassenrath is doing. Click on the following link:

New REBOL Browser Plugin - New!
New capabilities! Plus support for Firefox/Mozilla/Etc. and Opera

Further information on this development can be found under Carl's  
Blog entitled "Browser Plugin Update".


The Windows only version is very much older, and you can see a  
demo of it (including the fully automatic installation of the  
plugin) at my own site:


http://www.howsoft.com/runrev/vector_graphics_in_revolution.htm

Scroll down to the picture of my sister-in-law's knitting machine  
and you will find the instructions for the demo:


"The above shows a Rebol program (script) running via a plugin in  
the Internet Explorer/altBrowser. It's a slideshow with 10 raster  
images. If you want to see how this works in the Internet Explorer  
using a PC (and also in an altBrowser stack once you acquire it),  
simply navigate to http://www.howsoft.com/photos for a demo. Rebol  
will install its plugin automatically (2 seconds)**, and then the  
pictures will be downloaded. Then, you can see the slideshow in  
the browser."


[** In the old days - Win XP SP1 - it used to take about 2 seconds  
to install this plugin automatically, but now - with SP2 - you  
have to give it permission. Nevertheless, it is very quick. What  
takes longer is the download of the photos for the demo, but this  
has nothing to do with the Rebol plugin itself.]



As far as I can see, this development is relevant to what Rev may  
or may not decide to implement in various ways, both technically  
and also in terms of keeping up with "what's out there". In short,  
just about any program written in Rebol can be run - with no  
hassle - in the Windows Internet Explorer. The same facility for  
Firefox etc. is still in alpha, but will probably be ready this  
year. Everybody speaks about Java, Flash, etc., but nobody seems  
to be really aware of what Rebol are up to. Also, as far as I can  
see, my little demo is highly relevant to the Web presentation of  
media.


Just thought I'd mention it.

Regards,
Bob





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Peter T. Evensen
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314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588

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--
Pierre Sahores
www.sahores-conseil.com


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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Peter T. Evensen]

The problem wiht rebol is that it is yet another plug-in.  The reason 
schools (for example) want web/browser-delivered content is that they don't 
have to go in and touch every workstation.


If Rev could deliver a stack via DHTML/AJAX, that would be the ideal!

I was even pondering writing my own Rev tool to create a Rev stack and an 
DHTML/AJAX version of the same thing.


At 01:58 PM 6/28/2006, you wrote:

Dan Shafer wrote:
>
Delivering a Rev stack/app in DHTML would be
such an awesome tool that I'd use it daily.


If you chappies discussing this thread (most of which is above my head) 
think that comparison would be of any value, I suggest you visit -


http://www.rebol.com

- to see what Carl Sassenrath is doing. Click on the following link:

New REBOL Browser Plugin - New!
New capabilities! Plus support for Firefox/Mozilla/Etc. and Opera

Further information on this development can be found under Carl's Blog 
entitled "Browser Plugin Update".


The Windows only version is very much older, and you can see a demo of it 
(including the fully automatic installation of the plugin) at my own site:


http://www.howsoft.com/runrev/vector_graphics_in_revolution.htm

Scroll down to the picture of my sister-in-law's knitting machine and you 
will find the instructions for the demo:


"The above shows a Rebol program (script) running via a plugin in the 
Internet Explorer/altBrowser. It's a slideshow with 10 raster images. If 
you want to see how this works in the Internet Explorer using a PC (and 
also in an altBrowser stack once you acquire it), simply navigate to 
http://www.howsoft.com/photos for a demo. Rebol will install its plugin 
automatically (2 seconds)**, and then the pictures will be downloaded. 
Then, you can see the slideshow in the browser."


[** In the old days - Win XP SP1 - it used to take about 2 seconds to 
install this plugin automatically, but now - with SP2 - you have to give 
it permission. Nevertheless, it is very quick. What takes longer is the 
download of the photos for the demo, but this has nothing to do with the 
Rebol plugin itself.]



As far as I can see, this development is relevant to what Rev may or may 
not decide to implement in various ways, both technically and also in 
terms of keeping up with "what's out there". In short, just about any 
program written in Rebol can be run - with no hassle - in the Windows 
Internet Explorer. The same facility for Firefox etc. is still in alpha, 
but will probably be ready this year. Everybody speaks about Java, Flash, 
etc., but nobody seems to be really aware of what Rebol are up to. Also, 
as far as I can see, my little demo is highly relevant to the Web 
presentation of media.


Just thought I'd mention it.

Regards,
Bob





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Peter T. Evensen
http://www.PetersRoadToHealth.com
314-629-5248 or 888-682-4588 



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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Bob Warren]

Dan Shafer wrote:
>
Delivering a Rev stack/app in DHTML would be
such an awesome tool that I'd use it daily.


If you chappies discussing this thread (most of which is above my head) 
think that comparison would be of any value, I suggest you visit -


http://www.rebol.com

- to see what Carl Sassenrath is doing. Click on the following link:

New REBOL Browser Plugin - New!
New capabilities! Plus support for Firefox/Mozilla/Etc. and Opera

Further information on this development can be found under Carl's Blog 
entitled "Browser Plugin Update".


The Windows only version is very much older, and you can see a demo of 
it (including the fully automatic installation of the plugin) at my own 
site:


http://www.howsoft.com/runrev/vector_graphics_in_revolution.htm

Scroll down to the picture of my sister-in-law's knitting machine and 
you will find the instructions for the demo:


"The above shows a Rebol program (script) running via a plugin in the 
Internet Explorer/altBrowser. It's a slideshow with 10 raster images. If 
you want to see how this works in the Internet Explorer using a PC (and 
also in an altBrowser stack once you acquire it), simply navigate to 
http://www.howsoft.com/photos for a demo. Rebol will install its plugin 
automatically (2 seconds)**, and then the pictures will be downloaded. 
Then, you can see the slideshow in the browser."


[** In the old days - Win XP SP1 - it used to take about 2 seconds to 
install this plugin automatically, but now - with SP2 - you have to give 
it permission. Nevertheless, it is very quick. What takes longer is the 
download of the photos for the demo, but this has nothing to do with the 
Rebol plugin itself.]



As far as I can see, this development is relevant to what Rev may or may 
not decide to implement in various ways, both technically and also in 
terms of keeping up with "what's out there". In short, just about any 
program written in Rebol can be run - with no hassle - in the Windows 
Internet Explorer. The same facility for Firefox etc. is still in alpha, 
but will probably be ready this year. Everybody speaks about Java, 
Flash, etc., but nobody seems to be really aware of what Rebol are up 
to. Also, as far as I can see, my little demo is highly relevant to the 
Web presentation of media.


Just thought I'd mention it.

Regards,
Bob





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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Dan Shafer]

OK, so how many of us would be willing to throw, say, a grand at a developer
or team to do this project? Delivering a Rev stack/app in DHTML would be
such an awesome tool that I'd use it daily.

On 6/27/06, Richard Gaskin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


GregSmith wrote:

> And all of the linkages are already in place through AJAX for the major
> browsers so that nothing would need to be downloaded to be viewed and
> experienced?

I think the best answer here would be "depends". :)

"All" is a pretty big word, and as I mentioned earlier JavaScript/DHTML
is only really suited for a subset of all the things Rev can do.

But on the upside, anything that truly benefits from being in a browser
probably represents a pretty narrow subset of Rev's capabilities anyway.

So in brief, if ToolBook could do this almost a decade ago I see no
reason why Rev couldn't also:

1. Identify a subset of things that would be useful in a browser.

2. Make a Rev library with handlers to support those tasks.

3. Make a JavaScript library with corresponding handlers to get
those behaviors in a browser.

4. Author in Rev, have a library generate the objects as DHTML
snippets in a web page, reference the JavaScript lib,
and upload.

5. Give the URL to your friends and enjoy. :)


Oh, and I forgot Step 0 (before 1):

0. Get some of the open source advocates here to do #1, 2, and 3.

--
  Richard Gaskin
  Managing Editor, revJournal
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

GregSmith wrote:


And all of the linkages are already in place through AJAX for the major
browsers so that nothing would need to be downloaded to be viewed and
experienced?  


I think the best answer here would be "depends". :)

"All" is a pretty big word, and as I mentioned earlier JavaScript/DHTML 
is only really suited for a subset of all the things Rev can do.


But on the upside, anything that truly benefits from being in a browser 
probably represents a pretty narrow subset of Rev's capabilities anyway.


So in brief, if ToolBook could do this almost a decade ago I see no 
reason why Rev couldn't also:


1. Identify a subset of things that would be useful in a browser.

2. Make a Rev library with handlers to support those tasks.

3. Make a JavaScript library with corresponding handlers to get
   those behaviors in a browser.

4. Author in Rev, have a library generate the objects as DHTML
   snippets in a web page, reference the JavaScript lib,
   and upload.

5. Give the URL to your friends and enjoy. :)


Oh, and I forgot Step 0 (before 1):

0. Get some of the open source advocates here to do #1, 2, and 3.

--
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 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Bill Marriott]

"Richard Gaskin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote 
in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> If you can get backing for the development of such a plugin I'm fairly 
> confident RunRev would happily receive the money.

It's always been my plan to win the lottery and give it all to RunRev :)

> A plugin doesn't address that either, since it would still need to be 
> downloaded and installed just like any app, so I'm not certain that's 
> really the best option (try having that conversation with university or 
> hospital IT staff and the knowledgeable ones will raise as many questions 
> about a new plugin as they would about a new app).

Well, they might... but hopefully you'd be able to demonstrate that the 
plugin was much safer than an app. An EXE can do just about anything it 
wants with your system. There's plenty of plugins out there besides Flash, 
anyway. Anytime I go to an online-chat support there's a plugin for the 
chat. Or "smart updaters" for driver software. Or various download managers. 
Or to view a nifty "360 view" of a digital camera.

> Well, why not use the world's most popular presentation layer on the web?
>
> When we consider that the browser experience really deals with only a 
> subset of what Rev can deliver, maybe there's a whole different way to 
> approach this: JavaScript/DHTML (what newcomers to web development are now 
> calling "AJAX").

Ow. My head is starting to hurt! I won't learn JavaScript! You can't make 
me! LOL

> JS provides interactivity in a scripting engine everyone already has 
> installed, and can handle a reasonable subset of the sorts of Rev things 
> that would make sense within a browser window.
>
> One could even take this idea further by incorporating SVG so you can have 
> vectors as well (I have a prototype SVG exporter for Rev in RevNet, and 
> there are more complete implementations around).  And since SVG now 
> incorporates SMIL as a subset, you have support for synchronized 
> time-based media too.

Hey doesn't SVG require a plugin? ;)

Actually, an SVG export/authoring tool would be pretty feasible and 
downright beautiful.

> The full range of things Rev can do would be close to impossible to make a 
> Transcript-to-JavaScript translator for, but again if you need a browser 
> presentation you're probably only needing a fairly narrow subset anyway.
>
> ToolBook provided some handy support for this sort of deployment, 
> providing native libraries with correlating JavaScript libraries for the 
> subset of things that make the most sense in a browser.
>
> There's no reason this couldn't be done in Rev, using a set of templates 
> and wizards on the Rev side and generating corresponding JavaScript/DHTML 
> for web output, just like ToolBook did.
>
> Like Google Maps and Google Earth, there are cool things you can do in a 
> browser and even cooler things you can do in a dedicated app.  If Google 
> Maps represents "Web 2.0", the dedicated Google Earth app represents "Web 
> 3.0". :)  But for those who want ubiquity it's hard to beat a good browser 
> implementation, and with JavaScript/DHTML being just text it's not all 
> that hard to generate when you have an engine that works so gracefully 
> with chunk expressions.
>
> With all the talk of open source support in this community, such an effort 
> based around these open standards on the presentation side should be 
> relatively easy to have at least a basic library and some tools for this 
> in short order.
>
> This would provide an answer for the subset of people who want this sort 
> of thing, and it wouldn't cost RunRev Ltd. anything to see it happen. The 
> company wouldn't need to be distracted from their core mission in any way, 
> and the community would get one more "yes" answer to a common deployment 
> question.  A win-win for all.
>
> So, who's up for herding cats? :)
>
> I'll bet a reasonable v1.0 that addresses the sort of things the Media 
> templates make could be knocked off in under under two weeks' development 
> time

Despite my jokes this is a really good idea. But it certainly is much more 
suited for building specific applications (i.e., web-enabled Media 
templates) than for building a general-purpose "Rev to Web" converter. Kind 
of like the Microsoft "HTML PowerToy" -- I don't think it would be possible 
to make a converter that would work on every stack.




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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Richard:

And all of the linkages are already in place through AJAX for the major
browsers so that nothing would need to be downloaded to be viewed and
experienced?  

Since the Media package is being marketed to people who really don't want to
program, but love the media inclusiveness this package contains, why not
make such a web deployment set of functions another included "Wizard", where
the user starts with web deployment in mind, and therefore, starts by using
a smaller overall tool subset.  At $49, this package would be much more
attractive to users than it currently is, giving it a more solid identity.

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Revolution-Media-Presentation-Viewable-on-Web--tf1846212.html#a5074464
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

Bill Marriott wrote:

Apple publicly demonstrated a plugin that enabled HyperCard stacks to be run 
within web pages. Unfortunately it never saw distribution. Flash and 
Director both have connections to HyperCard from way back. Frankly, a 
web-plugin is a natural for Rev. It would let us developers write games and 
really awesome interfaces to data sources... the mind boggles at the 
possibilities.


What we're really talking about is a new distribution channel for our 
creative work. All the philosophical musings about whether the plugin wars 
are over or whether Rev is an apple or an orange are moot. The dust has far 
from settled on the Internet.


If you can get backing for the development of such a plugin I'm fairly 
confident RunRev would happily receive the money.


But in my experience such investors are hard to find.  I've not had a 
conversation with them yet that didn't end with "Why not just use Flash?"


I'd like to see Rev make a nice web plugin. A meg or 2 isn't really that 
awful nowadays. The key issue would be security/sandbox concerns. 


The Rev engine already provides support for a very strong level of 
security, both in the Player and available to any standalone with the 
secureMode property, which prevents all file I/O, registry settings, 
shell commands, and other such calls that can be used for malicious ends.


But like you say, that doesn't address the ubiquity question, the desire 
to be able to have nothing more than a URL to experience the software.


A plugin doesn't address that either, since it would still need to be 
downloaded and installed just like any app, so I'm not certain that's 
really the best option (try having that conversation with university or 
hospital IT staff and the knowledgeable ones will raise as many 
questions about a new plugin as they would about a new app).



So what to do for presentation?


Well, why not use the world's most popular presentation layer on the web?

When we consider that the browser experience really deals with only a 
subset of what Rev can deliver, maybe there's a whole different way to 
approach this: JavaScript/DHTML (what newcomers to web development are 
now calling "AJAX").


JS provides interactivity in a scripting engine everyone already has 
installed, and can handle a reasonable subset of the sorts of Rev things 
that would make sense within a browser window.


One could even take this idea further by incorporating SVG so you can 
have vectors as well (I have a prototype SVG exporter for Rev in RevNet, 
and there are more complete implementations around).  And since SVG now 
incorporates SMIL as a subset, you have support for synchronized 
time-based media too.


The full range of things Rev can do would be close to impossible to make 
a Transcript-to-JavaScript translator for, but again if you need a 
browser presentation you're probably only needing a fairly narrow subset 
anyway.


ToolBook provided some handy support for this sort of deployment, 
providing native libraries with correlating JavaScript libraries for the 
subset of things that make the most sense in a browser.


There's no reason this couldn't be done in Rev, using a set of templates 
and wizards on the Rev side and generating corresponding 
JavaScript/DHTML for web output, just like ToolBook did.


Like Google Maps and Google Earth, there are cool things you can do in a 
browser and even cooler things you can do in a dedicated app.  If Google 
Maps represents "Web 2.0", the dedicated Google Earth app represents 
"Web 3.0". :)  But for those who want ubiquity it's hard to beat a good 
browser implementation, and with JavaScript/DHTML being just text it's 
not all that hard to generate when you have an engine that works so 
gracefully with chunk expressions.


With all the talk of open source support in this community, such an 
effort based around these open standards on the presentation side should 
be relatively easy to have at least a basic library and some tools for 
this in short order.


This would provide an answer for the subset of people who want this sort 
of thing, and it wouldn't cost RunRev Ltd. anything to see it happen. 
The company wouldn't need to be distracted from their core mission in 
any way, and the community would get one more "yes" answer to a common 
deployment question.  A win-win for all.


So, who's up for herding cats? :)

I'll bet a reasonable v1.0 that addresses the sort of things the Media 
templates make could be knocked off in under under two weeks' 
development time


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Bill Marriott]

Apple publicly demonstrated a plugin that enabled HyperCard stacks to be run 
within web pages. Unfortunately it never saw distribution. Flash and 
Director both have connections to HyperCard from way back. Frankly, a 
web-plugin is a natural for Rev. It would let us developers write games and 
really awesome interfaces to data sources... the mind boggles at the 
possibilities.

What we're really talking about is a new distribution channel for our 
creative work. All the philosophical musings about whether the plugin wars 
are over or whether Rev is an apple or an orange are moot. The dust has far 
from settled on the Internet.

I'd like to see Rev make a nice web plugin. A meg or 2 isn't really that 
awful nowadays. The key issue would be security/sandbox concerns. 



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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Trevor DeVore]

On Jun 27, 2006, at 8:46 AM, GregSmith wrote:
Exactly, not only do people NOT want to go to the trouble of  
downloading yet
another browser plug-in, they especially do not want to go to the  
trouble of
installing an application which they have never heard of, on a  
machine they
may not own.  This all boils down to people being ignorant and  
conditioned
and suspicious . . .   and there is no turning back now.   
Especially not

with all the mobile this and cell phone that.  This is painfully and
specifically true to those who try to sell anything online that may  
depend,

somewhat, on impulse.


Hi Greg,

While generally true, I have found that if content is truly  
compelling to a person they are willing to take the necessary steps  
to get that content.


The common forms of e-learning deployment are definitely through a  
web browser.  If you have content that is aimed at a broad target  
market then this probably is the best solution.  That doesn't mean it  
is the best solution for all markets.  There are many benefits to  
delivery in a browser but one of the big cons is off-line viewing.


My company creates e-learning software.  While the e-learning model  
we use would apply in many areas we target the medical industry,  
specifically ultrasound.  Off-line viewing of content that is always  
up to date is critical as training often occurs on the road or in a  
doctor's exam room where internet connectivity might not be  
available.  Our solution was a desktop application that synchs with  
online content similar to the way you synch a PDA.


We have deployed this solution in a few large corporations as well as  
to the public and had very positive feedback.  I think we are able to  
create a better overall experience for users using a desktop  
solution.  Since our target market finds the content deployed in our  
e-learning system compelling they are willing to perform the initial  
download.


And, remember, both Flash and QuickTime players come already  
installed in
the most popular and current web browsers.  The less the user has  
to do, the
more they will use it, the more they will trust it, and the less it  
will

matter what software was used to author it.


The points I would question here are how much a user will use or  
trust content based on the ease of acquiring the content.  It seems  
to me that people make the most use of things that they find useful.   
I know of an e-learning solution that were deployed on the web at  
great expense but which was then taken down relatively quickly  
because it was deemed useless.  It was too hard to use.  Regardless  
of your delivery format, the user experience dictates how often the  
user will use it.


People trust names that are familiar to them and that they have a  
positive opinion of.  If a customer has a need of learning something  
about a product they purchased from Company ABC and that company  
provides training then the customer wants access to it (whether on  
paper, web, etc.).  Their opinion of Company ABC is going to be  
affected by the quality of the training that the company provides.   
If the training meets the customers needs, a positive opinion is  
gained and trust increases.  If the training is not good the opposite  
occurs.  I believe this happens regardless of the medium of  
delivery.  Just this weekend I heard complaints about companies  
because of their inadequate assembly instructions.  One was about  
furniture from IKEA and the other about an isolation booth (for music  
studios).


So I would argue that just because a user has less to do to get  
content does not ensure success.  It is the user experience that  
ultimately decides success.  If you can provide that for your target  
market in a browser, great.  If they are better served by a web  
enabled desktop application then take that route.



--
Trevor DeVore
Blue Mango Learning Systems - www.bluemangolearning.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Andre Garzia]

Greg,

Rev is not a web authoring product. Rev is a Software authoring product.

Revolution is a computer programming language designed to be generic  
enought so that you can make almost all kinds of software with it.  
Some of the concepts of Rev and features are:


* Organized in clean stacks, cards and objects.
* Message Hierarchy
* Support for TCP/IP and lots of standard protocols
* Support to many database systems (mySQL, PostgreSQL, Oracle)
* Multimedia features thru quicktime.
* Rich tools to build user interface.
* Wonderful text parsing.
* XML libraries.

This are just some features I am quoting out of my head. Nor Flash,  
Nor Quicktime, Nor the best mix of AJAX/CSS/Buzzword-of-the-month  
will give you this feature set. The only possible way to have this  
kinds of features is by switching to another computer language. You  
simply cannot map back and forth from Rev to the technologies you're  
saying. It's like saying that fireworks does a better job at croping  
images than rev, hey, fireworks is a image manipulation program, Rev  
is a language, it will do what you code it to do.


Now that we're talking about coding, let me give you an idea. See  
it's not impossible to transport your efforts with Rev to the web,  
the thing is that it is not out of the box. You'll never be able to  
transport a Revolution stack application to the web while sustaining  
all its features. But you can create your own tool to make your web  
stuff. It's easier than you think.


For example suppose that each card is a page, and in each page there  
are images, like a virtual photo albumn. You can then make a little  
tool that will loop thru this stack and images building an HTML + CSS  
photo gallery for you.


Many in this list have coined their own Content Management System in  
Rev, some have turned those into products which are quite good. Check  
4W WebMerge and Altuit Hemmingway, both are built with Rev and easy  
to use.


When you build your own tool, you control everything, you can decide  
how things should be transported to the web and adapt your software  
to your personal workflow, its a nice experience when you first do it.


cheers
andre

On Jun 27, 2006, at 6:04 AM, GregSmith wrote:


After four days of
searching for the ultimate Mac-based web authoring product, I found  
that all
of them, except Revolution, (of any flavor), output my efforts as  
Flash or

QuickTime or CSS or HTML.


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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

As a non-committed Revolution "explorer", my expectations are quite high,
these days, when I purchase any new authoring tool.  Prices are plummetting
everywhere and I expect very much bang for my buck.  After four days of
searching for the ultimate Mac-based web authoring product, I found that all
of them, except Revolution, (of any flavor), output my efforts as Flash or
QuickTime or CSS or HTML.   Most of these "solutions" were either extremely
elementary in the kind of content they could produce, or too cryptic with
not enough user examples and tutorials, to catch my dollar.

Revolution Media really caught my interest because of its friendly nature,
its low price and its ability to harness Transcript, the least intimidating
programming language out there, (I think).  Silly me, I just assumed that it
would generate some kind of standard web (browser) output that would retain,
at least most of the interactivity, I built in.  It is not out of the
question that a $49 authoring application would include this kind of
functionality.

No matter which version of Revolution you are trying to sell, nor how
technically educated the applicant may be, the guys and gals who pay their
wages all think mainly in terms of "The Web" for online dellivery of
multimedia content.  And the potential purchaser of a product like Media
will be thinking along those same lines.


Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Revolution-Media-Presentation-Viewable-on-Web--tf1846212.html#a5068987
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Judy:

Exactly, not only do people NOT want to go to the trouble of downloading yet
another browser plug-in, they especially do not want to go to the trouble of
installing an application which they have never heard of, on a machine they
may not own.  This all boils down to people being ignorant and conditioned
and suspicious . . .   and there is no turning back now.  Especially not
with all the mobile this and cell phone that.  This is painfully and
specifically true to those who try to sell anything online that may depend,
somewhat, on impulse.

And, remember, both Flash and QuickTime players come already installed in
the most popular and current web browsers.  The less the user has to do, the
more they will use it, the more they will trust it, and the less it will
matter what software was used to author it.

Greg Smith
-- 
View this message in context: 
http://www.nabble.com/Revolution-Media-Presentation-Viewable-on-Web--tf1846212.html#a5068603
Sent from the Revolution - User forum at Nabble.com.

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Ben Rubinstein]

T'aint the same as displaying content embedded in the middle of a web page; 
and still requires (as every other possible solution would) the end user to 
download something on their disk; but it occurs to me that we might, with 
little effort, at least be able to get to the state that PDF is on for many 
people.


That is, while some browsers display PDF as a whole window within the browser, 
many others simply hand off a PDF file linked from a web page to Acrobat or 
Preview.


At least on the Mac, I think it would be simple to write a standalone that 
when launched, sets itself as the handler for eg the protocal "revhttp:". 
Then instead of telling to people to launch Rev and type

go to URL "http://xxx";

in the message box, you'd simply have a link like this on a web page:
http://xxx";>click to run

When the user clicks it, the browser hands it off to the standalone, which 
will be launched if necessary - the standalone gets the message to open that 
URL, realises it is a rev stack to be accessed by http, fetches the stack, opens.


I know the basic mechanism (browser handing off URL to app written in Rev) 
works, because I used it recently to have links in web page causing a 
Rev-based app to display some relevant information.  In that case I was 
manually configuring the Mac to link the 'protocol' to my app, but I assume 
this can be done programatically. (My suggestion above, assuming it's trivial, 
is to make the standalone runner be its own installer in this respect.)


I never did discover how to set up a custom protocal mapping like this on 
Windows - does anyone know?


If this idea actually strikes anyone as useful, perhaps the RevInterop group 
might like to consider if there are some guidelines that might be useful to 
standardise on.


Also (Lynn?) - while clearly a Studio/Enterprise user can set something like 
this up for themselves/their own user base, would RunRev have issues about 
this?  Maybe (unless everyone thinks this is a totally dumb idea) this 
functionality could be built into the forthcoming enhanced Rev Player.


  Ben Rubinstein   |  Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cognitive Applications Ltd   |  Phone: +44 (0)1273-821600
  http://www.cogapp.com|  Fax  : +44 (0)1273-728866

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RE: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Lynn Fredricks]

> So, for the Revolution author who wants to take advantage of 
> all of the authoring prowess of Revolution, yet wants to also 
> enjoy the added benefit of regular sales transactions, he or 
> she might be best served by a compromise in the form of a 
> standard browser plug-in, which fully displays all of the 
> functionality of a Revolution stack . . . or, better yet, a 
> translator which exports the fully functional Revolution 
> stack into a format like Flash or QuickTime.

Hi Greg,

In terms of training, the channel is FILLED with product that definitely is
not delivered by way of a browser at all, though they may incorporate
Quicktime video playback (just like Revolution does).

One problem with developing a "standard" browser plugin is that there are
still multiple browsers out there, and multiple versions of those browsers,
and supporting them can be a nightmare.

There are reasons for using different tools that depend entirely on your
project. There are downsides to delivering a media message directly through
a browser as compared to a "heavy client" like Revolution - again, the
number of downsides depends on the details of your project.

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd








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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Thomas McGrath III]

Richard,

Votes are precious so although I am very interested in this I don't  
think I have enough votes left to apply to it.


I would say that maybe some crossover between a Flash/Java output and  
a Rev development app would help greatly in this endeavor.


Maybe an Object exporter from with in Rev that exports objects into a  
format useful in flash with built in functionality.


Tom McG

On Jun 27, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


. . . or, better yet, a translator which exports the fully
functional Revolution stack into a format
like Flash or QuickTime.


Or even Java, which may be a closer fit in a lot of ways, and  
there's a lot of example code on generating byte code.


Yeah, I'd like this option for some things.  There may even be a  
feature request filed in Bugzilla for this.  I wonder how many  
votes it's gotten.


In the meantime, for Web deployment it's hard to beat Flash, just  
as for desktop applications it's hard to beat Rev.  I suppose it'd  
be ideal to have one tool that does everything optimally, but since  
both tools are pretty cheap and (at least in my work) it's rare  
that I'd want to make the same thing for web deployment and as a  
desktop app, maybe two tools isn't a deal breaker for either.


--
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 Managing Editor, revJournal


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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Judy Perry]

Scott,

Right, of course, but the problem still remains in a Windows world that,
if your web content requires downloading some program that nobody's ever
heard of, you've probably just cut-off 80%+ of your potential audience.
Maybe even 90%+ (Many will be precluded by lacking permissions on
non-owned machines and owners may well balk at downloading something that
could well be the Prelude to a DriveWipe).

Isn't this reminiscent of the whole problem of Rev relying upon QuickTime
in a QuickTime-hostile Windows world?

Judy

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Scott Rossi wrote:

> Recently, GregSmith wrote:
>
> > So, really there are no Runtime Revolution products or
> > extensions or 3rd party products made specifically for delivering multimedia
> > content over the internet.
>
> Actually, you can deliver any Revolution content over the Internet using a
> single line of code:
>
>   go url "http://www.myserver.com/mycoolstack.rev";
>
> This loads a stack from the 'net almost as if you had launched it from your
> desktop.  The difference is, the stack doesn't appear within the confines of
> a Web browser.  If your audience has a player of some sort (whether it be
> Runtime's player or something custom that you build) they can view your
> Internet delivered stacks.
>
> Regards,
>
> Scott Rossi
> Creative Director
> Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
> -
> E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> W: http://www.tactilemedia.com
>
>
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Judy Perry]

Richard,

While I really liked your referenced article, and, indeed, agree
substantially with its many good points, the problem remains with the vast
legions of folk who don't know the internet from the web, http from ftp
(what?!??) and/or, in the case of a bunch of general education and
upper-division college students I had last Fall, the grammatic/structural
difference between an email address and a URL; thus, that problem being
that NOT being able to deploy stacks in a web browser really limits the
internet deployment of your stacks.

:-(

Serious bummer...

And we won't even go into the folks who think that multimedia EXCLUSIVELY
= web content.

Judy


On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> The Internet is not necessarily the Web.  There are sometimes good
> reasons to deploy stuff specifically within a browser window, but
> deploying stacks over the Internet to your own custom browser is a snap
> with Rev:
>
>
> Beyond the Browser
> Rediscovering the Role of the Desktop in a Net-centric World
>
> 

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Judy Perry]

If I'm not mistaken, this is something lots of folks have been asking for
for a long time.

Maybe it lies in 'the road ahead'?

Judy

On Mon, 26 Jun 2006, GregSmith wrote:

>
> Jacqueline:
>
> That's too bad.  So, really there are no Runtime Revolution products or
> extensions or 3rd party products made specifically for delivering multimedia
> content over the internet.
>
> Seems like a natural fit for a product like Runtime Revolution and its rich
> use of all media types, coupled with all the other database integration
> stuff.
>

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Andre Garzia]

On Jun 26, 2006, at 6:25 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:


. . . or, better yet, a translator which exports the fully
functional Revolution stack into a format
like Flash or QuickTime.


Err, friends,

I don't want to be one to spoil the fun but nor quicktime nor flash  
supports the feature-set of Rev. That conversion is not only  
impossible, it's unthinkable, it's like trying to pass a pineapple to  
a machine and expecting iPods at the other side.


Quicktime is a media container.
Flash is a interactive media tool.
Rev is a computer language.

Flash has a kind of programming language, Quicktime has some kind of  
interactivity and Rev do media well, but the similarities end there.


It would be a wiser path to build a tool in Rev that would pick your  
content and generate flash or quicktime.


andre
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

GregSmith wrote:


So, for the Revolution author who wants to take advantage of all of the
authoring prowess of Revolution, yet wants to also enjoy the added benefit
of regular sales transactions  he or she might be best served by a
compromise in the form of a standard browser plug-in, which fully displays
all of the functionality of a Revolution stack


Check the list archives. :)  The short form is that the browser plugin 
wars were won by Macromedia more than half a decade ago.  If you need 
Flash it's not expensive and there are a great many templates, 
courseware packages, etc.


The issue with making yet-another-browser-plugin is that while bean 
counters like how it reads on paper, users and their IT staff quickly 
learn that it's no different from a custom browser:  they still need to 
download and install some engine to drive it all.


Only Flash is pre-installed -- a good route to go with if you need the 
in-browser experience.



. . . or, better yet, a translator which exports the fully
functional Revolution stack into a format
like Flash or QuickTime.


Or even Java, which may be a closer fit in a lot of ways, and there's a 
lot of example code on generating byte code.


Yeah, I'd like this option for some things.  There may even be a feature 
request filed in Bugzilla for this.  I wonder how many votes it's gotten.


In the meantime, for Web deployment it's hard to beat Flash, just as for 
desktop applications it's hard to beat Rev.  I suppose it'd be ideal to 
have one tool that does everything optimally, but since both tools are 
pretty cheap and (at least in my work) it's rare that I'd want to make 
the same thing for web deployment and as a desktop app, maybe two tools 
isn't a deal breaker for either.


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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Richard:

Thanks for all the links, and I do agree with your thesis about internet
apps.  But, from the standpoint of selling software training modules, the
two most important issues that the seller must face are trust and
familiarity, coming from and directed to their potential customers.  

Users have been trained, by continual exposure, to trust web-based
transactions, standard plug-ins like QuickTime and Flash, conducted and
experienced in standard browser environments.  Remove them from this trusted
commerce environment and you will probably lose many sales.  Yet, from a
purely theoretical viewpoint, not all content or sales environments are best
served by what the browser environment has to offer, either.  

So, for the Revolution author who wants to take advantage of all of the
authoring prowess of Revolution, yet wants to also enjoy the added benefit
of regular sales transactions, he or she might be best served by a
compromise in the form of a standard browser plug-in, which fully displays
all of the functionality of a Revolution stack . . . or, better yet, a
translator which exports the fully functional Revolution stack into a format
like Flash or QuickTime.

I'd sure be tempted to lay down a cool 300 bucks if such things were already
included in the Revolution Studio package.

Greg Smith
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

GregSmith wrote:


When you say "a snap", what you mean by snap and what I may understand you
to mean could easily be 2 different things.  I did look for examples of how
to do what you are describing by searching the Revolution site and Google,
but came up empty-handed.


Did you read the article I referenced?

Also, the Open Directory entry for Transcript has some links to 
examples, like these:





And then there's the RevPlayer, and RevNet, which is installed with 
Revolution in Development->Plugins->GoRevNet



Does this kind of "snap" involve all sorts of CGI, PHP, XML or other
acronym-laced procedures, the likes of which I run from at the earliest
opportunity?

Or, is it easy like drag and drop stuff without writing a single line of
code.  I just love it when advertisements reassure me with statements like
that.


Point-and-click authoring in the Revolution line of products is limited 
to the wizards (which RunRev calls "templates") provided with Rev Media.


I trust their player makes it easy to deploy these online, but to be 
honest I build mostly standalones myself so I haven't yet looked at the 
Player.


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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Richard:

Oh, and in my quest for the perfect, easy, to the point, no programming web
authoring environment, I came across Apple's Keynote 3.  Now, although this
is not Revolution by any stretch of the imagination, it contains a lot of
animated pizzazz and interactivity which is perfectly acceptable for web
demonstrations of software functionality.

Why, when reading the appropriate forum posts, I even came across a post by
an old HyperCard user and author who was hoping this product might evolve
into something HyperCard-like in the future.  Certainly it could.  

Keynote 3 looked fun and functional, just watch the demonstration that ships
with the package, (you can try out Keynote 3 if you have a current version
of iLife 06).

I know it is not the cup of tea for the hardened programmer.

Greg Smith
--
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Richard:

When you say "a snap", what you mean by snap and what I may understand you
to mean could easily be 2 different things.  I did look for examples of how
to do what you are describing by searching the Revolution site and Google,
but came up empty-handed.

Does this kind of "snap" involve all sorts of CGI, PHP, XML or other
acronym-laced procedures, the likes of which I run from at the earliest
opportunity?

Or, is it easy like drag and drop stuff without writing a single line of
code.  I just love it when advertisements reassure me with statements like
that.

Greg Smith
--
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Thomas McCarthy]

Greg,
I also was looking for this feature--first in SuperCard. But if you think about 
it, something like Flash requires a multi-megabyte download and install plugin 
for your browser. You can accomplish the same by having your users run 
web-based stacks from a rev app on their hard-drive.

You can also use Rev for cgi's to deliver dynamic html pages, such presenting 
information from a database or using a javascript templates to create on the 
fly interactive pages...

I guess the point is instead of worrying what Rev can't do, try looking at what 
it can accomplish. If you need a flashy animation web app, try flash.

cheers,
tm

OOOh, before I forget. OpenOffice has a decent presentation component that can 
save as flash files (no audio, though)

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Scott Rossi]

Recently, GregSmith wrote:

> So, really there are no Runtime Revolution products or
> extensions or 3rd party products made specifically for delivering multimedia
> content over the internet.

Actually, you can deliver any Revolution content over the Internet using a
single line of code:

  go url "http://www.myserver.com/mycoolstack.rev";

This loads a stack from the 'net almost as if you had launched it from your
desktop.  The difference is, the stack doesn't appear within the confines of
a Web browser.  If your audience has a player of some sort (whether it be
Runtime's player or something custom that you build) they can view your
Internet delivered stacks.

Regards,

Scott Rossi
Creative Director
Tactile Media, Multimedia & Design
-
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
W: http://www.tactilemedia.com


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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Richard Gaskin]

GregSmith wrote:

So, really there are no Runtime Revolution products or
extensions or 3rd party products made specifically for
delivering multimedia content over the internet.


The Internet is not necessarily the Web.  There are sometimes good 
reasons to deploy stuff specifically within a browser window, but 
deploying stacks over the Internet to your own custom browser is a snap 
with Rev:



Beyond the Browser
Rediscovering the Role of the Desktop in a Net-centric World



--
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 Fourth World Media Corporation
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Jacqueline:

That's too bad.  So, really there are no Runtime Revolution products or
extensions or 3rd party products made specifically for delivering multimedia
content over the internet.

Seems like a natural fit for a product like Runtime Revolution and its rich
use of all media types, coupled with all the other database integration
stuff.

As an aside, I spent the last four days scouring the internet for THE
multimedia authoring package designed to deliver content over the internet .
. . , (it's been a long time since I looked last, so I expected the
marketplace to be bursting with such applications),  and you know what . . .  
it doesn't exist, not for the Mac, anyway.  Now I know all about Adobe's
line of products, (formerly Macromedia's) and LiveStage Pro and EXedia QTI,
and non of these really is specifically tailored for internet delivery of
multimedia content of the kind Revolution is capable of making. 

Perhaps some of the Revolution programming experts out there should take
advantage of this obvious industry oversight.

I think the days for distributing such content, offline, to the masses, have
pretty much evaporated.  And, sorry to say, I think Adobe has monopolized
the market for producing tools for the distribution of online multimedia
content.  I just don't want to play monopoly anymore.

Greg Smith
--
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[J. Landman Gay]

GregSmith wrote:


For convenience, most people offering online training stuff require the kind
of portability that Flash or QuickTime offers, so that the content can be
viewed in a standard web browser . . .  is that even possible with any
version of Runtime Revolution?


Not per se. Rev doesn't have a browser plug-in, which is what you'd need 
in order to present stack content. You can write a CGI that takes a 
picture of a card and returns it to the browser for viewing, but if you 
want interactivity, that method doesn't work very well.


--
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HyperActive Software   | http://www.hyperactivesw.com
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Dan:

I really like the wizard idea for putting together an adventure type game,
(which I would just use for fun), so I'd have to purchase Media for that. 
But, I still don't understand how I would use Studio to put together a
"demonstration" type web presentation that would feature watchable,
interactive snippets of my educational content, made with Revolution.  My
goal is to sell these interactive educational video modules, online, but
people just don't buy these things without an online sampling that they can
experience "right away", if you know what I mean.

As far as I have been able to assess, one would have to author an entire
"web application" to put actual Runtime examples online, not viewable in a
standard browser.  But, I'm still confused whether such an application would
act as content, like Flash or interactive QuickTime, or whether it is an
entire, experiential web application.  

For convenience, most people offering online training stuff require the kind
of portability that Flash or QuickTime offers, so that the content can be
viewed in a standard web browser . . .  is that even possible with any
version of Runtime Revolution?

Thanks,

Greg Smith
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Dan Shafer]

Greg.

I don't speak or work for RunRev and there's always the chance I'm just as
confused as you, but here's what I understand.

Rev Media is differentiated from Revolution in two primary ways:

First, as Jacque has already said, you can't deliver your Rev Media products
any way but using the free Rev Media Player.

Second, Rev Media comes equipped with four (for the moment) templates (more
like wizards, actually) that assist you in building specific kinds of
applications. You can do other things with Media but its primary thrust is
to focus on those template/wizards. Those assistants do NOT come with
Revolution, which is intended to be a more general purpose tool.

So I think the short answer is that if you wanted to use the Rev Media tool
to create, e.g., an adventure game, and then compile the result into a
standalone application or deliver it some othe way, you'd need both
products.

On 6/26/06, GregSmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Jacqueline:

So, there is a way to create a viewable web presentation using Revolution
Studio?  If so, how?

Also, if one purchases the "Media" edition, he gets some goodies that
don't
seem to be available with the Studio purchase, like the adventure game
stuff.  So, does one have to purchase both versions to get some of these
premade elements?  I'm confused and couldn't find the answers to these
questions on the Runtime Revolution website.

Thank you,

Greg Smith
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"

From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html

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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[GregSmith]

Jacqueline:

So, there is a way to create a viewable web presentation using Revolution
Studio?  If so, how?

Also, if one purchases the "Media" edition, he gets some goodies that don't
seem to be available with the Studio purchase, like the adventure game
stuff.  So, does one have to purchase both versions to get some of these
premade elements?  I'm confused and couldn't find the answers to these
questions on the Runtime Revolution website.

Thank you,

Greg Smith
--
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Re: Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[J. Landman Gay]

Greg Smith wrote:
I've been intimidated  by the full blown Revolution package and now feel 
a little more comfortable, especially in the area of the pocket book, 
since "Revolution Media" has been introduced.  I'm mainly interested in 
using this product to produce educational training material that 
features a lot of slideshow material and captured QuickTime sessions 
with software demonstration.  Of course, the more interactivity, the 
better.


But, is deployment through the Runtime "player" the only method for 
viewing and distribution?  Can a website equipped with a plug-in manage 
to demonstrate some of the interactive content that I intend to produce 
with Revolution Media?


For Media, yes, you need to deploy on the Player. There is no browser 
plug-in, so the Player is pretty much your only option. This is, in 
fact, the main differentiation between Media and the other editions.


--
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Revolution Media Presentation Viewable on Web?

[Greg Smith]

I've been intimidated  by the full blown Revolution package and now  
feel a little more comfortable, especially in the area of the pocket  
book, since "Revolution Media" has been introduced.  I'm mainly  
interested in using this product to produce educational training  
material that features a lot of slideshow material and captured  
QuickTime sessions with software demonstration.  Of course, the more  
interactivity, the better.


But, is deployment through the Runtime "player" the only method for  
viewing and distribution?  Can a website equipped with a plug-in  
manage to demonstrate some of the interactive content that I intend  
to produce with Revolution Media?


Thanks,

Greg Smith
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Jerry Daniels]

Judy,

I have begun to believe the dilemma that Revolution (and many other  
great products) face is the "cult software" phenomenon. I am starting  
to think software becomes "cultish" and loses its appeal to people  
who are not part of the "cult" because of a corruption of the  
creative process whereby:


1. the developers of the software lose their "faith" and "vision" and  
start believing in "features"
2. as a result, the software becomes something less appealing to new  
users (non-cult members)


Many feedback sessions, however well-intentioned, end up being ego  
battles whereby the technical types with less assertive social skill  
lose faith in their product, their company and themselves. In short,  
they start urinating in the punch bowl during breaks. (NOTE: this has  
actually happened.)


If I were Kevin and Mark, I would avoid reading this list at every  
opportunity. I believe the over-all effect of this list tends to be  
debilitating for them and might even neuter them creatively speaking.  
It would be like watching the Catholic channel right before having  
sex. Oops...I actually like that. Well, you know what I'm trying to say.


Jerry

Buy Constellation from Runtime Revolution!
http://revstudio.runrev.com/section/revselect/constellation/



On Apr 12, 2006, at 12:05 PM, Judy Perry wrote:


It almost sounds like RevConWest...

Almost.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, how do you know that your participating
end-users are not hand-picked to ensure a certain outcome?

Not that I'm accusing you of doing that, but I participated in an  
external

evaluator session for our first online master's degree.  The fur was
positively flying (and most improbably, not on my particular  
account), but
when I later voiced some of my concerns to the program head, she  
seemed

most blissful in her ignorance.  Later, when the program made its
self-assessment to a national conference, what I had witnessed had  
been

entirely sugar-coated.

I love the process you describe.  I guess it all depends upon the
willingness of the company to actually listen to what is being said as
opposed to hearing what they would like to hear.  Your customers  
are most

fortunate that your company is of the former rather than the latter.

Rev clearly has the opportunity to be of the former as well.

Judy

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I fully agree with this approach. It makes for a win/win situation  
for
both the company as well as the established customer base. As a  
matter of

fact, our company utilizes a certain high-end system that is
internationally respected in the industry. Each year, a group of  
end-users

and management attends an event which allows us direct access to the
developers of our chosen system. The users sit down and voice their
concerns, problems, bugs, feature requests, etc. to the entire  
group of

developers and leaders of this company. We even vote on what is most
important, and user opinion actually carries more weight than  
anything
else. After all, the customer is always right. It's like bugzilla,  
but
without the clunky interface, and you leave the event knowing that  
your

votes and input have made a real difference in the direction of the
product.


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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Jeanne A. E. DeVoto]

At 4:44 PM -0500 4/12/2006, Chipp Walters wrote:
Sorry Jim, but I have to disagree with you here. I *used* to think 
the same. But, after I worked with Rev and their RevSelect program, 
I started seeing sales of Altuit products from names *never* 
mentioned on this list-- and lots of 'em! In fact Rev's list of 
users, IMO, is probably much greater (2X,4X,6X?) than the list 
subscribers, for all kinds of reasons.


Of course I could be wrong, and all those are just 'lurkers'! :-)



That's plausible, actually. If this list is typical, and I have no 
special reason to suspect it's not, 90% or so of the list subscribers 
never post!


(One mistake that remembering the usual high lurker-to-poster ratio 
keeps us from making is assuming that if we see a name we don't 
recognize, that person's not on the list. Another is assuming that 
posters are typical of either list-members or customers generally. 
The posters are all we actually see - like the tip of an iceberg - so 
it's difficult to internalize that they're not all that's there.)

--
jeanne a. e. devoto ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.jaedworks.com
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Jim Carwardine]

Generalizing can be dangerous and I certainly over generalized.  I also
forgot about the Rev/Metacard relationship, having never been a Metacard
user.  Conclusion - Rev is more mature than I initially indicated and
certainly branded beyond the confines of this list.  I suspect, however,
that there are very few degrees of separation from every user of Rev and the
active members of this list.  Having said that, I take Richard Gaskin's
comments of the value of a sales force such as the evangelistas (Guy
Kawasaki - the ultimate brandmeister) on this list... Jim

on 4/12/06 6:44 PM, Chipp Walters wrote:

> Jim Carwardine wrote:
>> Branding is not an issue for the language of Rev because almost all of the
>> users are on this list - change the name and several people have to do a
>> search/replace for the name on a few documents.
> 
> Sorry Jim, but I have to disagree with you here. I *used* to think the
> same. But, after I worked with Rev and their RevSelect program, I
> started seeing sales of Altuit products from names *never* mentioned on
> this list-- and lots of 'em! In fact Rev's list of users, IMO, is
> probably much greater (2X,4X,6X?) than the list subscribers, for all
> kinds of reasons.
> 
> Of course I could be wrong, and all those are just 'lurkers'! :-)
> 
> -Chipp
> 
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Chipp Walters]

Jim Carwardine wrote:

Branding is not an issue for the language of Rev because almost all of the
users are on this list - change the name and several people have to do a
search/replace for the name on a few documents.


Sorry Jim, but I have to disagree with you here. I *used* to think the 
same. But, after I worked with Rev and their RevSelect program, I 
started seeing sales of Altuit products from names *never* mentioned on 
this list-- and lots of 'em! In fact Rev's list of users, IMO, is 
probably much greater (2X,4X,6X?) than the list subscribers, for all 
kinds of reasons.


Of course I could be wrong, and all those are just 'lurkers'! :-)

-Chipp

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Louise Stoehr]

Dr. Louise E. Stoehr
Director, Modern Languages Learning and Resource Center
Stephen F. Austin State University
Nacogdoches, TX   75962
http://www.sfasu.edu/modlang
On 12 Apr, 2006, at 1:29 PM, Marty Billingsley wrote:


Jim Ault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Well, we could name our list 'cross-talk' instead of xTalk :-))


Didn't Lynn just try to quell any "cross" talk on this list? :-)

  - marty
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Marty Billingsley]

Jim Ault <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Well, we could name our list 'cross-talk' instead of xTalk :-))

Didn't Lynn just try to quell any "cross" talk on this list? :-)

  - marty
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Re: Marketing Your Products Forum (was RE: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media)

[Mark Talluto]

On Apr 11, 2006, at 4:42 PM, Lynn Fredricks wrote:


Sounds like a good idea!


Hi Judy, its ready to go! :-)

Empty now but ready to be filled. Just register and log in.

A "Marketing Your Products" forum - Share your experiences and  
ideas on how

to market your Revolution made products.

http://forums.runrev.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=31


I just put my first thoughts on the topic in there to get something  
started.  I look forward to seeing the rest of you there.



Mark Talluto
--
CANELA Software
http://www.canelasoftware.com

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Judy Perry]

Media's really not all that bad as a name...

Judy

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006, Jim Ault wrote:

> Hmmm,  DreamRev ?

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Judy Perry]

It almost sounds like RevConWest...

Almost.

Just to play Devil's Advocate, how do you know that your participating
end-users are not hand-picked to ensure a certain outcome?

Not that I'm accusing you of doing that, but I participated in an external
evaluator session for our first online master's degree.  The fur was
positively flying (and most improbably, not on my particular account), but
when I later voiced some of my concerns to the program head, she seemed
most blissful in her ignorance.  Later, when the program made its
self-assessment to a national conference, what I had witnessed had been
entirely sugar-coated.

I love the process you describe.  I guess it all depends upon the
willingness of the company to actually listen to what is being said as
opposed to hearing what they would like to hear.  Your customers are most
fortunate that your company is of the former rather than the latter.

Rev clearly has the opportunity to be of the former as well.

Judy

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I fully agree with this approach. It makes for a win/win situation for
> both the company as well as the established customer base. As a matter of
> fact, our company utilizes a certain high-end system that is
> internationally respected in the industry. Each year, a group of end-users
> and management attends an event which allows us direct access to the
> developers of our chosen system. The users sit down and voice their
> concerns, problems, bugs, feature requests, etc. to the entire group of
> developers and leaders of this company. We even vote on what is most
> important, and user opinion actually carries more weight than anything
> else. After all, the customer is always right. It's like bugzilla, but
> without the clunky interface, and you leave the event knowing that your
> votes and input have made a real difference in the direction of the
> product.

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Jim Ault]

Hmmm,  DreamRev ?

Jim Ault
Las Vegas


On 4/12/06 8:42 AM, "Kevin Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On 11/4/06 22:22, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> I liked the name DreamCard. The name conveyed something to me, not to
>> mention the fact there was already considerable branding set in place.
> 
> All other considerations, pros and cons aside (which unfortunately I don't
> have time to comment on right now), the Dreamcard name had to go because of
> a trademark issue.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Kevin
> 
> Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
> Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools
> 
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Kevin Miller]

On 11/4/06 22:22, "Chipp Walters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I liked the name DreamCard. The name conveyed something to me, not to
> mention the fact there was already considerable branding set in place.

All other considerations, pros and cons aside (which unfortunately I don't
have time to comment on right now), the Dreamcard name had to go because of
a trademark issue.

Kind regards,

Kevin

Kevin Miller ~ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~ http://www.runrev.com/
Runtime Revolution - User-Centric Development Tools

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Richard Gaskin]

Roger.E.Eller wrote:

Chipp Walters  wrote:

All that said, looking back, I've found these type of decisions were
made best not in a vaccuum, but with the help of trusted advisors. At
Human Code we had a board of directors, which met each quarter and
frequently offered different and valuable advice utilizing other's
experiences and perspectives, which helped me as CEO, make good
decisions.

...
I fully agree with this approach. It makes for a win/win situation for 
both the company as well as the established customer base. As a matter of 
fact, our company utilizes a certain high-end system that is 
internationally respected in the industry. Each year, a group of end-users 
and management attends an event which allows us direct access to the 
developers of our chosen system. The users sit down and voice their 
concerns, problems, bugs, feature requests, etc. to the entire group of 
developers and leaders of this company. We even vote on what is most 
important, and user opinion actually carries more weight than anything 
else. After all, the customer is always right. It's like bugzilla, but 
without the clunky interface, and you leave the event knowing that your 
votes and input have made a real difference in the direction of the 
product.


Bugzilla's useful in a very broad way, but I agree there's no substitute 
for direct interaction.


This practice isn't limited to high-end products:  nearly every vendor 
I've worked with, both bigger and smaller than RunRev, has some sort of 
advisory board comprised of key customers with a demonstrated stake in 
the product's growth.


I've been doing this myself with each of the products I manage, 
hand-picking about a dozen power users and providing a venue for candid 
feedback.  Not all of it's flattering, and I like it that way:  flattery 
feels good, but it's less instructive than good criticism.


I actively encourage all of my customers to email, or even call my 
toll-free number, and feel free to gripe to their heart's content.  Some 
of them express surprise at my receptivity, but I tell them it's really 
the only way I can truly understand how others rely on my products.


Since I started this practice sales are up, support costs are wy 
below industry averages, and my forum is filled with generally 
appreciative and happy comments as people see the product moving in a 
direction consistent with their needs.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Fourth World Media Corporation
 Developer of WebMerge: Publish any database on any Web site
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Roger . E . Eller]

Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> All that said, looking back, I've found these type of decisions were
> made best not in a vaccuum, but with the help of trusted advisors. At
> Human Code we had a board of directors, which met each quarter and
> frequently offered different and valuable advice utilizing other's
> experiences and perspectives, which helped me as CEO, make good
> decisions. It's unfortunate RunRev doesn't work with a board of
> advisors, as I'm sure a few past misteps in the past could've been 
averted.

I fully agree with this approach. It makes for a win/win situation for 
both the company as well as the established customer base. As a matter of 
fact, our company utilizes a certain high-end system that is 
internationally respected in the industry. Each year, a group of end-users 
and management attends an event which allows us direct access to the 
developers of our chosen system. The users sit down and voice their 
concerns, problems, bugs, feature requests, etc. to the entire group of 
developers and leaders of this company. We even vote on what is most 
important, and user opinion actually carries more weight than anything 
else. After all, the customer is always right. It's like bugzilla, but 
without the clunky interface, and you leave the event knowing that your 
votes and input have made a real difference in the direction of the 
product.

Roger Eller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Richard Gaskin]

Jim Carwardine wrote:

Branding is not an issue for the language of Rev because almost all of the
users are on this list - change the name and several people have to do a
search/replace for the name on a few documents.


With some name changes that might be the case, but the unique challenge 
with using one word to mean to different things is that each context 
needs to be examined for clarity, and in some cases you'd need to use 
somewhat clumsy constructs like "Revolution (the language)" or 
"Revolution (the IDE)".



Developers starting to use Rev are doing so because somebody on
this list told them about it.


What Chipp wrote yesterday pretty much applies to nearly every post I've 
read on this list:  the motivation is a deep passion for the product and 
a desire to see the company be more successful.


Those here with a stake in RunRev's success have been effectively an 
army of sales people who faithfully go out into the trenches day after 
day, year after year, and the only compensation asked for is a good 
value on each upgrade they pay for.  And they're willing to keep paying 
the bills with upgrade after upgrade year after year as long as the 
value remains unquestionable.


How many sales people are willing to pay for the privilege of selling?

Imagine where RunRev would be without this core constituency.

...

This needs to settle down.  Markets hate unpredictable change.
Inconsistency is the true evil.  ...  Rev needs to settle on their value
proposition and then ruthlessly protect it -


Projecting stability and confidence -- now THAT's branding.

--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Jim Carwardine]

Branding is not an issue for the language of Rev because almost all of the
users are on this list - change the name and several people have to do a
search/replace for the name on a few documents.  Developers starting to use
Rev are doing so because somebody on this list told them about it.  The
internet is far more valuable as a networking and referral vehicle for
products like Rev - excellent but not much weight (like if Microsoft had
authored it).  

Branding on any scale that matters won't happen until Rev decides to spend
millions of $ on advertising in major media.  Then their messaging must be
surpassed by their performance to make a hit.

Lynn has just arrived and is taking his job seriously getting the Rev
message as simple and powerful as it can be.  Trial and error after all the
entrails have been examined is the only way.  Constructive feedback is
invaluable at this stage of development - which he's getting in spades.

Marketing Rev-developed apps has a different market altogether.

The big error most startup businesses make is altering the value proposition
without recognizing it.  Altering the value proposition CHANGES YOUR MARKET
as the people that valued it before may not value it now.  Changing price,
suddenly putting out buggy code, shirking on the docs all affect the
perceived value of Rev.  Also, I think that versions 2.6 and 2.7 violated
the value proposition that Rev had established - around OS 9 and around
succession where the 2.6 files wouldn't run in 2.7.  Earlier versions were
not that difficult a transition I don't think (I entered at Version 5).

In 2.7 people were expecting something other than what they got - hence all
the flack er, feedback.

This needs to settle down.  Markets hate unpredictable change.
Inconsistency is the true evil.  McDonald's hamburgers are consistently
mediocre and they are banking on it.  Rev needs to settle on their value
proposition and then ruthlessly protect it - inside their own
organization... Jim


on 4/11/06 4:37 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote:

> Dan wrote:
>> I agree with your basic point. It seems clear to me that RR has a branding
>> issue. I think they think they have solved it now. But there's a lot of
>> consternation about changing the name of the language to be the same as the
>> product and I keep waffling on that one.
>> 
>> IT will be nice when we can go two full years without a product name change
>> for sure!
> 
> Judy's point is important, as concerns about RunRev not having a plan
> and sticking with it seem far more pervasive and serious than the small
> perceived benefit of attempting to get some micro-branding value from an
> unnecessary change.
> 
> Consider this: the only real risk with branding is the case in which
> Transcript is being discussed in a context in which Revolution is never
> mentioned.   Anyone ever actually see that?
> 
> Rather than jump on the gotta-be-like-RealBASIC bandwagon,  I'd sooner
> hitch my horse to the many more, larger, and more successful companies
> whose market research evidently found no value to such a move (Lingo,
> ActionScript, HyperTalk, AppleScript, OpenScript, etc. etc.).  For every
> language named for its IDE there are at least four that aren't.
> 
> Given the nature of the question, it isn't possible to have truly firm
> data one way or another (that sort of qualitative research is more an
> art than a science, prone to researcher subjectivity and with a
> singularity like a product it's not possible to have experimental
> controls).  So at best it's a guess, and one which merely covers for the
> narrow possibility of a scenario in which Transcript would be discussed
> without mentioning Revolution.
> 
> But what is known is the cost to the company and third parties to update
> all references to Transcript, the risk to the Open Directory and
> Wikipedia entries (both have Transcript listings and both have policies
> against entries for proprietary products), and the continued confusion
> to the market since so many references exist in so many venues that it
> won't be possible to update them all.
> 
> Why introduce confusion and exacerbate a perception of flightiness only
> to assist a branding effort which accounts for a scenario that never
> happened?
> 
> It may be the case that Adobe, Macromedia, Netscape, Apple, Asymetrix,
> and other companies with strong market research departments are not
> entirely wrong on this.
> 
> I hope RunRev will reconsider in light of more important priorities
> before committing to this recommendation from a contractor.
> 
> A reputation for being flighty seems a far more serious branding issue
> than merely following an established trend among many major successful
> companies.
> 
> --
> Richard Gaskin
> Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Jim Ault]

Well, we could name our list 'cross-talk' instead of xTalk :-))

It is also not a good idea to make a clever variation on the spelling, since
searchers don't remember those very well.  Tons of hits and you are not
there.

Jim Ault
Las Vegas


On 4/12/06 12:18 AM, "Dan Shafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Using common words as product names has a real downside in a search-driven
> Internet-based world. Windows? Vista? Apple?
> 
> xTalk turns up 212,000 hits; of the firs ten, three seem relevant. But the
> term is used for lots of stuff I never heard of.
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/11/06, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>> Good detective work there Todd. And to tell the truth, I think the same
>> way. Turns out the term 'revScript' has only about 50 hits...h.
>> 
>> -Chipp
>> 
>> Todd Higgins wrote:
>>> Some stats from Google:
>> 
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> 
> 
> --
> ~~
> Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
> http://www.shafermedia.com
> Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>> From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Dan Shafer]

Using common words as product names has a real downside in a search-driven
Internet-based world. Windows? Vista? Apple?

xTalk turns up 212,000 hits; of the firs ten, three seem relevant. But the
term is used for lots of stuff I never heard of.



On 4/11/06, Chipp Walters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Good detective work there Todd. And to tell the truth, I think the same
> way. Turns out the term 'revScript' has only about 50 hits...h.
>
> -Chipp
>
> Todd Higgins wrote:
> > Some stats from Google:
>
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Chipp Walters]

Good detective work there Todd. And to tell the truth, I think the same 
way. Turns out the term 'revScript' has only about 50 hits...h.


-Chipp

Todd Higgins wrote:

Some stats from Google:


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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Todd Higgins]

Some stats from Google:

Results 1 - 10 of about 395,000,000 for revolution

	The first relevant link was the runrev homepage (14th)   The most  
prominent links (and text ads) had to do with heartworm medicine for  
you pets.  Also note that the next generation Nintendo game station  
is also called Revolution.  Once that ships I think runrev is going  
to be lucky if they are on the 14th page of results with this keyword.


Results 1 - 10 of about 157,000,000 for Transcript

	No relevant links in the first 10 pages. Very common word, text ads  
referred to college transcripts


Results 1 - 10 of about 4,850,000 for revolution transcript.

	The 7 of the first 10 sites were for relevant websites.  There were  
no text ads displayed.  (Perhaps that is a marketing opportunity for  
someone?)  For someone that wants to find out information about


Results 1 - 10 of about 22,100,000 for revolution programming

	Similar results 7 of the first 10 sites are relevant, but the 5th  
site was about Nintendo's game station...  Again no text ads.



Results 1 - 10 of about 66,800,000 for revolution language

2 out of the first 10 are relevant.

Results 1 - 10 of about 30,000,000 for transcript language.

The first 4 links are relevant (for a total of 5 of the first 10)


I am not  Search Engine Optimizer or anything like that, but it looks  
to me as the inclusion of the word 'transcript' really narrows the  
search results and produces more relevant links than just  
'revolution'  Now I am sure runrev will do their best to update all  
of their references, but the do not have any control over third party  
links, plus once Nintendo's Revolution ships I expect runrev to be  
buried under all of the gaming website links.


Todd


On Apr 11, 2006, at 6:19 PM, Robert Brenstein wrote:


 > Why introduce confusion and exacerbate a perception of

 flightiness only to assist a branding effort which accounts
 for a scenario that never happened?

 It may be the case that Adobe, Macromedia, Netscape, Apple,
 Asymetrix, and other companies with strong market research
 departments are not entirely wrong on this.


If you'd like to send me the case studies used internally at these  
companies
to support your argument, it would go a long way in convincing one  
way or

the other.



As I said earlier, I don't see the change so significant really in  
either direction. I presume this was discussed heavily and the  
decision was not made lightly, although there are pros and cons for  
either. The only thing that makes me somewhat uncomfortable, on the  
second thought, is calling a programming language "revolution".  
Kinda odd, considering that it is a common word. May be a  
compromise could be to retain the name but don't call it be name in  
the marketing materials, simply referring to the scripting language  
OF Revolution. I find this more clear than "English-like Revolution  
is the easiest

scripting language available".

Robert
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Marketing Your Products Forum (was RE: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media)

[Lynn Fredricks]

> Sounds like a good idea!

Hi Judy, its ready to go! :-) 

Empty now but ready to be filled. Just register and log in.

A "Marketing Your Products" forum - Share your experiences and ideas on how
to market your Revolution made products.

http://forums.runrev.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=31

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd


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RE: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Judy Perry]

Sounds like a good idea!

Judy

On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Lynn Fredricks wrote:

> > A reputation for being flighty seems a far more serious
> > branding issue than merely following an established trend
> > among many major successful companies.
>
> Id be happy to set up a marketing forum to discuss pro's and con's of
> marketing techniques. Paradigma already has one on Digital Pilon but it
> might be helpful and interesting to have on specifically on Revolution
> Forums.

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Robert Brenstein]

For the 2 cents it's worth:

I liked the name DreamCard. The name conveyed something to me, not 
to mention the fact there was already considerable branding set in 
place.




Yes, indeed, to add 2 more cents. The name was and is really great. 
Unfortunately, as the product it suffered from not clear enough 
separation from the Revolution line IMHO, so I am no so surprised it 
going away. I mean that having a different name for a de facto lowest 
member of the family was somewhat confusing. It possibly could fare 
better if it was a totally separate product.


Robert
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RE: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Robert Brenstein]

 > Why introduce confusion and exacerbate a perception of

 flightiness only to assist a branding effort which accounts
 for a scenario that never happened?

 It may be the case that Adobe, Macromedia, Netscape, Apple,
 Asymetrix, and other companies with strong market research
 departments are not entirely wrong on this.


If you'd like to send me the case studies used internally at these companies
to support your argument, it would go a long way in convincing one way or
the other.



As I said earlier, I don't see the change so significant really in 
either direction. I presume this was discussed heavily and the 
decision was not made lightly, although there are pros and cons for 
either. The only thing that makes me somewhat uncomfortable, on the 
second thought, is calling a programming language "revolution". Kinda 
odd, considering that it is a common word. May be a compromise could 
be to retain the name but don't call it be name in the marketing 
materials, simply referring to the scripting language OF Revolution. 
I find this more clear than "English-like Revolution is the easiest

scripting language available".

Robert
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RE: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Lynn Fredricks]

> All that said, looking back, I've found these type of 
> decisions were made best not in a vaccuum, but with the help 
> of trusted advisors. At Human Code we had a board of 
> directors, which met each quarter and frequently offered 
> different and valuable advice utilizing other's experiences 
> and perspectives, which helped me as CEO, make good 
> decisions. It's unfortunate RunRev doesn't work with a board 
> of advisors, as I'm sure a few past misteps in the past 
> could've been averted.

I agree with your point here, Chipp. Its better to have the collective scar
tissue of more experienced people around to avoid having to acquire the same
scars they did. There is also a dynamic in acquiring such a board of
directors or advisors which also presents additional challenges - picking a
board based on where you want to go as a company.

Last year I attended an EDGE forum called "Deadly Sins that Can Kill Your
Software Company" that covered the top seven deadly ones of CEOs - it had a
broad range of experience on the board, including the founder of Extensis
and a VC from Olympic Ventures. Im almost finished with writing them all up.
Ill post a link on the forums when all finished.

> This opinion is offered in the spirit of helpfullness, not to 
> be derogatory towards RR and their executive management. 
> Frankly, there's a lot going on that's really great there. 

Its hard to find fault with your opinion here :-)

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd





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RE: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Lynn Fredricks]

> Why introduce confusion and exacerbate a perception of 
> flightiness only to assist a branding effort which accounts 
> for a scenario that never happened?
> 
> It may be the case that Adobe, Macromedia, Netscape, Apple, 
> Asymetrix, and other companies with strong market research 
> departments are not entirely wrong on this.

If you'd like to send me the case studies used internally at these companies
to support your argument, it would go a long way in convincing one way or
the other.

> I hope RunRev will reconsider in light of more important 
> priorities before committing to this recommendation from a contractor.

Does this mean being a contractor invalidates any experience in business -
are contractors only good for executing mechanical tasks?

> A reputation for being flighty seems a far more serious 
> branding issue than merely following an established trend 
> among many major successful companies.

Id be happy to set up a marketing forum to discuss pro's and con's of
marketing techniques. Paradigma already has one on Digital Pilon but it
might be helpful and interesting to have on specifically on Revolution
Forums.

Best regards,


Lynn Fredricks
Worldwide Business Operations
Runtime Revolution, Ltd 





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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Chipp Walters]

For the 2 cents it's worth:

I liked the name DreamCard. The name conveyed something to me, not to 
mention the fact there was already considerable branding set in place.


Most good marketing folks will tell you it takes a lot of very strong 
arguments to consider changing a brand. And changing a brand is an 
expensive propositon (Now they'll have to replace "Transcript" with 
"Revolution" in each and every document, help file, book, website, 
etc.."). Not to mention the amount of resources it will take to make 
that change in each customer and potential customer's mind.


In my humble opinion, I would've thought RunRev has bigger and more 
important ways to use their resources. A small company like RR has just 
so many resources and I would certainly want them focussed on NOT 
creating more work for the company (as well for supporters like Dan who 
have to go back and change every book), but rather on ESTABLISHING 
better market awareness for the existing brands.


All that said, there are certainly extenuating circumstances which would 
warrant the changes-- trademark and copyright violations among them. Not 
being privy to the conversations, I wouldn't know what the compelling 
arguments FOR the multiple brand changes are. Though, I suppose there 
might be some mention of them on the list or website.


All that said, looking back, I've found these type of decisions were 
made best not in a vaccuum, but with the help of trusted advisors. At 
Human Code we had a board of directors, which met each quarter and 
frequently offered different and valuable advice utilizing other's 
experiences and perspectives, which helped me as CEO, make good 
decisions. It's unfortunate RunRev doesn't work with a board of 
advisors, as I'm sure a few past misteps in the past could've been averted.


This opinion is offered in the spirit of helpfullness, not to be 
derogatory towards RR and their executive management. Frankly, there's a 
lot going on that's really great there. And, if one takes the time to 
read Kevin's posts, you will find him to be always polite and 
appreciative of his customers, without ever resorting to threats or any 
type of argumentive behavior. I suppose we all could use a dose of his 
polite manners on this list.


best,

Chipp

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Richard Gaskin]

Dan wrote:

I agree with your basic point. It seems clear to me that RR has a branding
issue. I think they think they have solved it now. But there's a lot of
consternation about changing the name of the language to be the same as the
product and I keep waffling on that one.

IT will be nice when we can go two full years without a product name change
for sure!


Judy's point is important, as concerns about RunRev not having a plan 
and sticking with it seem far more pervasive and serious than the small 
perceived benefit of attempting to get some micro-branding value from an 
unnecessary change.


Consider this: the only real risk with branding is the case in which 
Transcript is being discussed in a context in which Revolution is never 
mentioned.   Anyone ever actually see that?


Rather than jump on the gotta-be-like-RealBASIC bandwagon,  I'd sooner 
hitch my horse to the many more, larger, and more successful companies 
whose market research evidently found no value to such a move (Lingo, 
ActionScript, HyperTalk, AppleScript, OpenScript, etc. etc.).  For every 
language named for its IDE there are at least four that aren't.


Given the nature of the question, it isn't possible to have truly firm 
data one way or another (that sort of qualitative research is more an 
art than a science, prone to researcher subjectivity and with a 
singularity like a product it's not possible to have experimental 
controls).  So at best it's a guess, and one which merely covers for the 
narrow possibility of a scenario in which Transcript would be discussed 
without mentioning Revolution.


But what is known is the cost to the company and third parties to update 
all references to Transcript, the risk to the Open Directory and 
Wikipedia entries (both have Transcript listings and both have policies 
against entries for proprietary products), and the continued confusion 
to the market since so many references exist in so many venues that it 
won't be possible to update them all.


Why introduce confusion and exacerbate a perception of flightiness only 
to assist a branding effort which accounts for a scenario that never 
happened?


It may be the case that Adobe, Macromedia, Netscape, Apple, Asymetrix, 
and other companies with strong market research departments are not 
entirely wrong on this.


I hope RunRev will reconsider in light of more important priorities 
before committing to this recommendation from a contractor.


A reputation for being flighty seems a far more serious branding issue 
than merely following an established trend among many major successful 
companies.


--
 Richard Gaskin
 Managing Editor, revJournal
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Dan Shafer]

Judy.

I had to laugh out loud reading your post. Not because the issue is funny,
but I had a picture in my head of you yanking out hair by the fistfuls!

I agree with your basic point. It seems clear to me that RR has a branding
issue. I think they think they have solved it now. But there's a lot of
consternation about changing the name of the language to be the same as the
product and I keep waffling on that one.

IT will be nice when we can go two full years without a product name change
for sure!


On 4/9/06, Judy Perry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Well, Dan (et al.),
>
> I suppose that I personally don't give a flying flaming figurative fig's
> whatever body-part who calls what what, but...
>
> It really would be nice if RunRev could pick a few names and STICK WITH
> THEM!!!
>
>

--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Judy Perry]

Well, Dan (et al.),

I suppose that I personally don't give a flying flaming figurative fig's
whatever body-part who calls what what, but...

It really would be nice if RunRev could pick a few names and STICK WITH
THEM!!!

I mean, honest to [EMAIL PROTECTED] every term I teach the course, I don't know 
WHAT
they call the bottom-line product, HOW much the [EMAIL PROTECTED] it costs, 
what the
$(*&*# it can and cannot do and how the (*C&(N)I'm supposed to refer
to the )#*$  thing just to order it.

Insert expletives and profanities of choice.  Doubly so if you are working
with a certified FrankenLab...  Running a certified sooo yesterday OS like
Mac OS 9...

I mean, YIKESS!!!This semester alone I sought to purchase DC 10-pack
licenses for my whining, etc., students... only to collect funds to
discover DC no longer exists... because Media will be... someday,... maybe
anyday...  maybe not... [EMAIL PROTECTED] only knows when when...and the file 
format's
changed... and, holy [EMAIL PROTECTED]  What am I supposed to tell them now, a 
good
two months after I've collected funds...?

Makes me even nuttier than I already am.  And I KNOW I'm certifiable.  But
I LIKE Rev...!

MIND YOU, RunRev has been MORE THAN GENEROUS in trying to  help me/us...
I mean, believe it or not, *I* understand... but I do worry about the
perception dropped perhaps inadvertently upon my clueless newbies...

Judy

On Sun, 9 Apr 2006, Dan Shafer wrote:

> You know, I reacted a bit negatively at first as well. Overnight, I began to
> think about it a bit more (I clearly need to get out more.)
>
> Visual Basic is the name of the IDE and the language. Same with RealBASIC.
>
> Then there's Borland's Delphi, which is a development environment for Object
> Pascal. Hmmm. As I thought about that exception (and others that then popped
> into memory), I think I get this differentiation. Giving the language and
> its IDE the same name is a strong way of branding the underlyng
> product/technology. When you layer something on top of a language that's
> already in popular use, you generally add some value and then you need to
> brand, not the underlying language (e.g., Pascal) but your enhancements to
> it. So you name it something else (e.g., Delphi).
>
> Now it makes better sense to me. Not that it had to. But I'm glad it does.

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media

[Dan Shafer]

You know, I reacted a bit negatively at first as well. Overnight, I began to
think about it a bit more (I clearly need to get out more.)

Visual Basic is the name of the IDE and the language. Same with RealBASIC.

Then there's Borland's Delphi, which is a development environment for Object
Pascal. Hmmm. As I thought about that exception (and others that then popped
into memory), I think I get this differentiation. Giving the language and
its IDE the same name is a strong way of branding the underlyng
product/technology. When you layer something on top of a language that's
already in popular use, you generally add some value and then you need to
brand, not the underlying language (e.g., Pascal) but your enhancements to
it. So you name it something else (e.g., Delphi).

Now it makes better sense to me. Not that it had to. But I'm glad it does.

On 4/9/06, Thomas McGrath III <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Robert,
>
> I guess I'm just resistant to change because I'm still not that happy
> about it. But after a nights sleep I am more willing to see how it
> plays out for the long road. There are a lot of changes happening
> lately so I assume they have a plan and are sticking to it. I guess
> that's good.
>
>
> Tom
>
> On Apr 9, 2006, at 8:29 AM, Robert Brenstein wrote:
>
> >> Lynn
> >>
> >> What is the thinking behind this? I am a little put off by the
> >> change. Hypercard had hypertalk, supercard had supertalk, director
> >> had lingo and Revolution had Transcript. I love the name transcript.
> >>
> >
> > My initial reaction was the same, but after sleeping on this, I
> > concluded that the change is not so significant. I mean it is okay
> > to drop the differentiation since the coding is an integral part of
> > using the IDE. It was different with HyperCard since it clearly
> > delineated different operation modes, with scripting being the
> > highest level, and it was possible to lock users out of scripting
> > while still letting them modify the stacks.
> >
> > On the other hand, what is now the programming language of
> > MetaCard? It used to be MetaTalk. Then we started saying Transcript
> > for simplicity, although technically not quite correct since all
> > the revXxxx thingies were not available there while implicitly part
> > of Transcript. I guess I have to say now I program in Revolution
> > using MetaCard IDE. Maybe it would be the right time to have
> > FlipsIDE (what ever happened to it btw?), so IDEs can be switched
> > like skins sort of and further eliminate the distinction of
> > language flavors.
> >
> > Robert
> > ___
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>
> Thomas J McGrath III
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Lazy River Software™ - http://www.lazyriversoftware.com
>
> Lazy River Metal Art™ - http://www.lazyriversoftware.com/metal.html
>
> Meeting Wear™ - http://www.cafepress.com/meetingwear
>
> Semantic Compaction Systems - http://www.minspeak.com
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--
~~
Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author
http://www.shafermedia.com
Get my book, "Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought"
>From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html
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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media; Announce Revolution Forums

[Rob Cozens]

Mark,


I still find
myself calling it Candlestick...



"Still"?

What do you call that older ballpark down the peninsula?

:{`)

Rob

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Re: Runtime Revolution Ships Revolution Media; Announce Revolution Forums

[Mark Wieder]

Lynn-

Saturday, April 8, 2006, 10:04:03 PM, you wrote:

>> Saturday, April 8, 2006, 3:03:13 PM, you wrote:
>> 
>> >> !!! <-- Exclamation would actually be a pretty cool name 
>> if you think
>> 
>> ...it would probably just remind me of has-been bivalves...

> Painful, Mark, that certainly was ;-)

Sorry... I thought you said exclamnation. Dyxlesia strikes again.

-- 
-Mark Wieder
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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