Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hi, I wonder why spamassassin detects email sent from android to our mail server as spams? I ran spamassassin -D the_email and got result as below Content analysis details: (13.8 points, 4.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 2.2 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net [Blocked - see http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?118.97.95.30] 2.9 RCVD_IN_XBLRBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL [118.97.95.30 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] 4.5 HELO_LOCALHOST HELO_LOCALHOST 1.2 SPF_NEUTRALSPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 2.9 TVD_SPACE_RATIOBODY: TVD_SPACE_RATIO 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS I checked spamcop.net and spamhaus.org and found 118.97.95.30 in both sites and had delisted them, but I guess it was going to happen again. This ip address is legit and just listed there today so I think perhaps email sent this morning has triggered this ip to get listed there (but I'm not sure why?). What can I do let emails from android smart-phone to arrive safely in our mail server? Thank-you in advance. Regards, Mario
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Il 09/03/2012 10.28, FC Mario Patty ha scritto: Hi, I wonder why spamassassin detects email sent from android to our mail server as spams? I ran spamassassin -D the_email and got result as below Content analysis details: (13.8 points, 4.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 2.2 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net http://bl.spamcop.net [Blocked - see http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?118.97.95.30] 2.9 RCVD_IN_XBLRBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL [118.97.95.30 listed in zen.spamhaus.org http://zen.spamhaus.org] 4.5 HELO_LOCALHOST HELO_LOCALHOST 1.2 SPF_NEUTRALSPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 2.9 TVD_SPACE_RATIOBODY: TVD_SPACE_RATIO 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS I checked spamcop.net http://spamcop.net and spamhaus.org http://spamhaus.org and found 118.97.95.30 in both sites and had delisted them, but I guess it was going to happen again. This ip address is legit and just listed there today so I think perhaps email sent this morning has triggered this ip to get listed there (but I'm not sure why?). What can I do let emails from android smart-phone to arrive safely in our mail server? Thank-you in advance. Regards, Mario Configure your phone(s) to send directly through your SMTP server, via SSL on port 465 (for example), instead of relaying through your phone provider's SMTP server.
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
I'm sorry for not giving full information before. We set our mail server to use SMTP with TLS (port 587) and the outgoing server (of the mail client on android smart phone) as our server itself (in other words, not relaying through the provider server). Thank you for the suggestion. Regards, Mario On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Nick Warr n...@mobilia.it wrote: Il 09/03/2012 10.28, FC Mario Patty ha scritto: Hi, I wonder why spamassassin detects email sent from android to our mail server as spams? I ran spamassassin -D the_email and got result as below Content analysis details: (13.8 points, 4.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 2.2 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net [Blocked - see http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?118.97.95.30] 2.9 RCVD_IN_XBLRBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL [118.97.95.30 listed in zen.spamhaus.org] 4.5 HELO_LOCALHOST HELO_LOCALHOST 1.2 SPF_NEUTRALSPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 2.9 TVD_SPACE_RATIOBODY: TVD_SPACE_RATIO 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS I checked spamcop.net and spamhaus.org and found 118.97.95.30 in both sites and had delisted them, but I guess it was going to happen again. This ip address is legit and just listed there today so I think perhaps email sent this morning has triggered this ip to get listed there (but I'm not sure why?). What can I do let emails from android smart-phone to arrive safely in our mail server? Thank-you in advance. Regards, Mario Configure your phone(s) to send directly through your SMTP server, via SSL on port 465 (for example), instead of relaying through your phone provider's SMTP server.
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On 09/03/12 11:29, FC Mario Patty wrote: I'm sorry for not giving full information before. We set our mail server to use SMTP with TLS (port 587) and the outgoing server (of the mail client on android smart phone) as our server itself (in other words, not relaying through the provider server). Thank you for the suggestion. Regards, Mario On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Nick Warr n...@mobilia.it mailto:n...@mobilia.it wrote: Il 09/03/2012 10.28, FC Mario Patty ha scritto: Hi, I wonder why spamassassin detects email sent from android to our mail server as spams? I ran spamassassin -D the_email and got result as below Content analysis details: (13.8 points, 4.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 2.2 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.net http://bl.spamcop.net [Blocked - see http://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?118.97.95.30] 2.9 RCVD_IN_XBLRBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL [118.97.95.30 listed in zen.spamhaus.org http://zen.spamhaus.org] 4.5 HELO_LOCALHOST HELO_LOCALHOST 1.2 SPF_NEUTRALSPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 2.9 TVD_SPACE_RATIOBODY: TVD_SPACE_RATIO 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS I checked spamcop.net http://spamcop.net and spamhaus.org http://spamhaus.org and found 118.97.95.30 in both sites and had delisted them, but I guess it was going to happen again. This ip address is legit and just listed there today so I think perhaps email sent this morning has triggered this ip to get listed there (but I'm not sure why?). What can I do let emails from android smart-phone to arrive safely in our mail server? Thank-you in advance. Regards, Mario Configure your phone(s) to send directly through your SMTP server, via SSL on port 465 (for example), instead of relaying through your phone provider's SMTP server. Based on a likely incorrect presumption that you use postfix and spamass-milter to get it done: Have users send only on submission port (587) or some other port (as you said you already do) and add/modify these lines in the master.cf *postfix/master.cf* submission inet n - - - - smtpd -o smtpd_tls_security_level=encrypt -o smtpd_sasl_auth_enable=yes -o smtpd_client_restrictions=permit_sasl_authenticated,reject Add this switch to spamass-milter start-up options: *-I * Ignores messages if the sender has authenticated via SMTP AUTH. Or, if not spamass-milter then something else. Unsure how to do this with spamassassin itself. Perhaps could disable spamchecks for authenticated users or at least some RBL lists - can SA do this? Although how long until spammers add sasl headers into their spam? :( Since these are mobile users then internal networks or trusted networks won't work.
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Il 09/03/2012 12.20, Simon Loewenthal ha scritto: On 09/03/12 11:29, FC Mario Patty wrote: I'm sorry for not giving full information before. We set our mail server to use SMTP with TLS (port 587) and the outgoing server (of the mail client on android smart phone) as our server itself (in other words, not relaying through the provider server). Thank you for the suggestion. Regards, Mario On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 4:59 PM, Nick Warrn...@mobilia.it mailto:n...@mobilia.it wrote: Il 09/03/2012 10.28, FC Mario Patty ha scritto: Hi, I wonder why spamassassin detects email sent from android to our mail server as spams? I ran spamassassin -D the_email and got result as below Content analysis details: (13.8 points, 4.0 required) pts rule name description -- -- 2.2 RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET RBL: Received via a relay in bl.spamcop.nethttp://bl.spamcop.net [Blocked - seehttp://www.spamcop.net/bl.shtml?118.97.95.30] 2.9 RCVD_IN_XBLRBL: Received via a relay in Spamhaus XBL [118.97.95.30 listed in zen.spamhaus.orghttp://zen.spamhaus.org] 4.5 HELO_LOCALHOST HELO_LOCALHOST 1.2 SPF_NEUTRALSPF: sender does not match SPF record (neutral) 2.9 TVD_SPACE_RATIOBODY: TVD_SPACE_RATIO 0.1 RDNS_NONE Delivered to trusted network by a host with no rDNS I checked spamcop.nethttp://spamcop.net and spamhaus.org http://spamhaus.org and found 118.97.95.30 in both sites and had delisted them, but I guess it was going to happen again. This ip address is legit and just listed there today so I think perhaps email sent this morning has triggered this ip to get listed there (but I'm not sure why?). What can I do let emails from android smart-phone to arrive safely in our mail server? Thank-you in advance. Regards, Mario Configure your phone(s) to send directly through your SMTP server, via SSL on port 465 (for example), instead of relaying through your phone provider's SMTP server. Based on a likely incorrect presumption that you use postfix and spamass-milter to get it done: Have users send only on submission port (587) or some other port (as you said you already do) and add/modify these lines in the master.cf *postfix/master.cf* submission inet n - - - - smtpd -o smtpd_tls_security_level=encrypt -o smtpd_sasl_auth_enable=yes -o smtpd_client_restrictions=permit_sasl_authenticated,reject Add this switch to spamass-milter start-up options: *-I * Ignores messages if the sender has authenticated via SMTP AUTH. Or, if not spamass-milter then something else. Unsure how to do this with spamassassin itself. Perhaps could disable spamchecks for authenticated users or at least some RBL lists - can SA do this? Although how long until spammers add sasl headers into their spam? :( Since these are mobile users then internal networks or trusted networks won't work. Easiest way is to not trigger on the header, but set up amavisd on two ports, one for unauthenticated mail, one for authenticated arriving on port 587.. scan the ones that arrive normally, skip spam scanning the ones that arrive on the authenticated port.
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On 25 Feb 2012, at 11:17 , Michelle Konzack wrote: There is something in spamassassin which does recursive rDNS lookups on all Received: headers No there isn’t. -- Exit, pursued by a bear.
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello xTrade Assessory, Am 2012-03-01 16:27:41, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: your domain has no A Record --[ command 'dig ANY tamay-dogan.net' ]- ;; Truncated, retrying in TCP mode. tamay-dogan.net.3600IN SOA dns1.tamay-dogan.net. hostmaster.tamay-dogan.net. 1324032262 14400 3600 604800 86400 tamay-dogan.net.3600IN RRSIG SOA 5 2 3600 20120322204915 20120221194915 27702 tamay-dogan.net. Ma6xul4BCy3MPDlBlw+w6d+yW4JZW9NdFfxf8YY922vMZ6gScBIAr9Rb 6OXXZv0h+2Da8vg05NrPivA9yhyjiVExKrCm2w/8ANff+AomQG0wDuhc rTvaM9t251wnqTVhbmONJbpMrwXAnzqpkmmek1/YWAf2DlMCuiryTzdD 19c= tamay-dogan.net.3600IN NS dns1.tamay-dogan.net. tamay-dogan.net.3600IN NS dns3.tamay-dogan.net. tamay-dogan.net.3600IN NS dns2.tamay-dogan.net. tamay-dogan.net.3600IN RRSIG NS 5 2 3600 20120322195554 20120221194915 27702 tamay-dogan.net. GO+CmCdqeVFS7Zh2Tj1cjjQY3N2D8TV+Vzx7KY9Aj2DBQi9X5TK3vqnp 4W+aVvjM6NwgxvuBK9t14FpRgbkTpX5JjdBgE7S6Z+9JsBltGaYzVjej RJJ6gj+zdwgplvnglXxQfaMKc+2d4nEv9tDf+mVCz8RgqdYsCXBmSkfG xNs= tamay-dogan.net.3600IN MX 10 mail.tamay-dogan.net. tamay-dogan.net.3600IN RRSIG MX 5 2 3600 20120322201625 20120221191855 27702 tamay-dogan.net. Q62pYOqNESNPrsdmN9UkntTFlzE/vFP5hHgR2zVKiFqH3A1NLf//VHEa qWrjCVSjt1uls2WGvyTaJq6LPdi+zHj04hiLKe9kZflHdpm8QIApJCPN 9vewIhBXk2p6HzIbWEtJL1rNOzge/Enk3H7lQRYmE/lNAcA97mZn6eJx M4s= tamay-dogan.net.3600IN TXT v=spf1 a mx ~all tamay-dogan.net.3600IN RRSIG TXT 5 2 3600 20120322195554 20120221194915 27702 tamay-dogan.net. b/DBG36pz/rueRszFjCSwn/lLiibW1uNVhr5sRCdTkoW/gEu7Luf52tF sdir1C7Leh4fkXzj+ctHnTVKWkL5Zm6KyuuHdaoPaLy9suk7gRqJ/TCV ZsjPrpxOGIAwni/cWAdNWnyiZ+3fnZgt1ZAH1K67whkiDeS8yLoFRb34 jJE= tamay-dogan.net.86400 IN NSECadmin.tamay-dogan.net. NS SOA MX TXT RRSIG NSEC DNSKEY tamay-dogan.net.86400 IN RRSIG NSEC 5 2 86400 20120322201625 20120221191855 27702 tamay-dogan.net. NO/2LcdrSVERmzqWduFKBgVC4RCIUW2kHu+RsBzd55bPY2KQkIgkaLeC QO50w1t71pt4rvN+9nGeVnlA6eFBT36V9aUftCy9X1xz07MngYTJmJXn pdMRk1WXn/VzWIUVOVr3oe+v+wtltPjYkOmeXom/K35hHjIzWcX6YwTO VjY= tamay-dogan.net.3600IN DNSKEY 257 3 5 AwEAAa+CSUuqsThWgRvHsJyT+uTJ1wuu6P1ziEUw0LiXypw0FUiszyjc sAPGcvqTjDvhy+hxKxQDjOUhjVgoLAha/HqD/qFGO7+bCCa/jWkHRMBq b4rra5FEXNbcQC0tQWFd2qPWczF8v8DfN/WWmYIANKeB/YyWw4dwKWid 7XFHV3khl8i8G7ATcv3+050yiv0rwL8tAy9Sk1ipiJ8BZml/78s= tamay-dogan.net.3600IN DNSKEY 256 3 5 AwEAAaOQY9JM1tWMkXzpvr+gaeJLi49sOstGD3k5XAFWgSzQYNBxyu/a ikicpbXh8dMpaHBoKrdCnEMk1KJGrhJD0/dK6h8hab9mz5SibVuKBs31 2czDXuJ7epbZ8Cu8e29/bhCBITwTD0VIoGZub9h4iNCN5w5mqwFZmYbd kCS7IAjB tamay-dogan.net.3600IN RRSIG DNSKEY 5 2 3600 20120322201625 20120221191855 27702 tamay-dogan.net. MWYiaIlutjTkJ88s//iS5kwvmdUDgPFkTTtOg+ZNqT1t13SMznVpjVRG d876sdEooH2Pa0s4+NsdcukIvlQQ2DUoyfrbhlsk62qYE8tgpuc61q8i Cocn5vCCJfKQD0k5aPCDmBlCjCEv3A5QEL2NJPFm5s5+Y8OB07j685YT 1nA= tamay-dogan.net.3600IN RRSIG DNSKEY 5 2 3600 20120322201625 20120221191855 30361 tamay-dogan.net. Z2nnJNCA4IUd8+JneM3DNZxJKbtGVGsFJTbAIGTdNhiB/uMEme7rgKF/ ovcVNMBLPG9XEwtF6ePGscvJXTfPCZFhrLaCdd2t9Uid1w0APJYoA6Ie 44UXvfWDSXWac6Clqqb8woq96UUKoCwk0tRFhaPlxgDC8DaPDkbhFxEc ozd5xkR2j4em49INX4OCrMNoPm874UuWE2j9gS13Xtr94g== dns1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 78.47.104.44 dns2.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 217.147.94.23 dns3.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 78.47.247.21 mail.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 78.47.247.21 Looks very good. even if it has an MX the missing A Record may be a cause of msgs being rejected on certain mailservers, most probably after HELO before any antispam hooks in, but if it goes through, it might be possible that there are antispams (custom or not) looking for the domain A Record as well Hans Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello xTrade Assessory, Am 2012-03-01 16:27:41, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: your domain has no A Record --[ command 'dig ANY tamay-dogan.net' ]- ;; Truncated, retrying in TCP mode. tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN SOA dns1.tamay-dogan.net. hostmaster.tamay-dogan.net. 1324032262 14400 3600 604800 86400 tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN RRSIG SOA 5 2 3600 20120322204915 20120221194915 27702 ... Looks very good. not quite ... your domain has no A record Hans -- XTrade Assessory International Facilitator BR - US - CA - DE - GB - RU - UK +55 (11) 4249. http://xtrade.matik.com.br
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello xTrade Assessory, Am 2012-03-03 14:59:16, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: not quite ... your domain has no A record Ehm: tamay-dogan.net.3600IN MX 10 mail.tamay-dogan.net. mail.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 78.47.247.21 Do I miss something? Hans Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello xTrade Assessory, Am 2012-03-03 14:59:16, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: not quite ... your domain has no A record Ehm: tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN MX 10 mail.tamay-dogan.net. mail.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 78.47.247.21 Do I miss something? we use to call that MX record and this A record is for a host under this domain no domain A record the A record for a domain is the fall back for MTAs if no MX is available Hans -- XTrade Assessory International Facilitator BR - US - CA - DE - GB - RU - UK +55 (11) 4249. http://xtrade.matik.com.br
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Den 2012-03-03 17:43, Michelle Konzack skrev: --[ command 'dig ANY tamay-dogan.net' ]- dig +trace tamay-dogan.net dig +dnssec +norecurse tamay-dogan.net all works fine here
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Den 2012-03-03 18:59, xTrade Assessory skrev: not quite ... your domain has no A record dig ANY www.tamay-dogan.net a dig ANY www.tamay-dogan.net both works here
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Den 2012-03-03 19:11, Michelle Konzack skrev: Do I miss something? MX is not A or , but its perfectly ok
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Den 2012-03-03 19:25, xTrade Assessory skrev: the A record for a domain is the fall back for MTAs if no MX is available what mta do try this ?, what rfc says there must be a A for every hostname pr MX ?
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Benny Pedersen wrote: Den 2012-03-03 19:25, xTrade Assessory skrev: the A record for a domain is the fall back for MTAs if no MX is available what mta do try this ? any , what rfc says there must be a A for every hostname pr MX ? firstable what you wrote here does not make any sense at all second I did not say any of this what I said, most probably is related in RFC 5321 Hans -- XTrade Assessory International Facilitator BR - US - CA - DE - GB - RU - UK +55 (11) 4249. http://xtrade.matik.com.br
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Benny Pedersen wrote: Den 2012-03-03 18:59, xTrade Assessory skrev: not quite ... your domain has no A record dig ANY www.tamay-dogan.net a dig ANY www.tamay-dogan.net both works here first BS is querying the www record second, BS is both works, what firstable is no answer at all and if interpreting this ingenous answer, using your words, your second query is not working, at least the dig answer would be 0 in this case because there is no ipv6 address and last ... nothing to do with anything we're talking about Hans -- XTrade Assessory International Facilitator BR - US - CA - DE - GB - RU - UK +55 (11) 4249. http://xtrade.matik.com.br
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On Thu, 1 Mar 2012 16:18:56 +0100 Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello RW, Am 2012-02-25 22:42:47, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: I think that this is pretty conclusive that it's nothing to do with Spamassassin. It doesn't look anything like what I'd expect for a Spamassassin-based rejection. I looks like some basic MTA check. Another thing is that it's failing to find an A-record, so nothing to do with rDNS either. Why should I have an A-Record for my work1 if it can not public accessed? I do not know a singel MTA (like courier, exim, postfix, Exchange, MSMTP) which does recursive A-Record checks on Received: Headers. My point was that it was rejected for a single specific reason, not based on a score. And that the error referred to forward dns not reverse. Given that this is the only actual evidence about the rejections. I don't see any basis for speculation about Spamassassin, let alone Spamassassin checking reverse DNS - unless there's more to the rejection message. Have you checked to see if you are sending mail with an @work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net address in the smtp envelope. Yes, ant ist seems to be correctly. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello Bowie Bailey, Am 2012-02-27 11:00:03, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: Ok. So you DO have rDNS, just not a customized one. That should not cause problems in most cases. Right but this conflicts wit SSL certs That sounds like an MTA configuration. Why do you think it is related to SA? Because the error messages are based on SA values. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello RW, Am 2012-02-25 22:42:47, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: I think that this is pretty conclusive that it's nothing to do with Spamassassin. It doesn't look anything like what I'd expect for a Spamassassin-based rejection. I looks like some basic MTA check. Another thing is that it's failing to find an A-record, so nothing to do with rDNS either. Why should I have an A-Record for my work1 if it can not public accessed? I do not know a singel MTA (like courier, exim, postfix, Exchange, MSMTP) which does recursive A-Record checks on Received: Headers. Have you checked to see if you are sending mail with an @work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net address in the smtp envelope. Yes, ant ist seems to be correctly. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On 3/1/2012 10:10 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote: That sounds like an MTA configuration. Why do you think it is related to SA? Because the error messages are based on SA values. Ok. What was the error message? I don't recall you showing an error message that mentioned SA. -- Bowie
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello Bowie Bailey, Am 2012-03-01 10:52:03, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: Ok. What was the error message? I don't recall you showing an error message that mentioned SA. Currently I am not in my office and do not know exatly the content, but the MAILER-DAEMON message had included 6-8 lines with the reject reason which came from SA and a link how I have to correct the error with my mailserver work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. If you look into my previos mail (or this one) you see, I send from work1 to storage000 using a trusted connection (192.168.0.x) without authentication and then use auth-smtp to send the mail to my public mail relay. This is a standard setup Since mail.tamay-dogan.net is the MX for tamay-dogan.net, no receiving MTA should reject the mail. Some minutes ago, I have gotten a message from someone, which told me, that maybe the receiving MTA has a custom SA rules which check wrongly the Received: headers recursively... Bowie Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On 3/1/2012 1:25 PM, Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello Bowie Bailey, Am 2012-03-01 10:52:03, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: Ok. What was the error message? I don't recall you showing an error message that mentioned SA. Currently I am not in my office and do not know exatly the content, but the MAILER-DAEMON message had included 6-8 lines with the reject reason which came from SA and a link how I have to correct the error with my mailserver work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. If you look into my previos mail (or this one) you see, I send from work1 to storage000 using a trusted connection (192.168.0.x) without authentication and then use auth-smtp to send the mail to my public mail relay. This is a standard setup Since mail.tamay-dogan.net is the MX for tamay-dogan.net, no receiving MTA should reject the mail. Right. I saw the info on your setup, but the only thing I remember seeing about the actual message you got back was a generic error that sounded like it would have come from the MTA rather than SA. Some minutes ago, I have gotten a message from someone, which told me, that maybe the receiving MTA has a custom SA rules which check wrongly the Received: headers recursively... That is definitely a possibility. That's why I asked for the exact error. If it gives us any indication of what rules are firing, we will have a much better idea of what the problem is. -- Bowie
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello Bowie Bailey, Am 2012-03-01 10:52:03, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: Ok. What was the error message? I don't recall you showing an error message that mentioned SA. Currently I am not in my office and do not know exatly the content, but the MAILER-DAEMON message had included 6-8 lines with the reject reason which came from SA and a link how I have to correct the error with my mailserver work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. Hi certainly it is difficult to help on empty error reports so I'm just guessing ... your domain has no A Record even if it has an MX the missing A Record may be a cause of msgs being rejected on certain mailservers, most probably after HELO before any antispam hooks in, but if it goes through, it might be possible that there are antispams (custom or not) looking for the domain A Record as well Hans -- XTrade Assessory International Facilitator BR - US - CA - DE - GB - RU - UK +55 (11) 4249. http://xtrade.matik.com.br
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On 2/25/2012 2:07 PM, Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello Bowie Bailey, Am 2012-02-24 12:42:02, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: Why not? It doesn't have to be specific. public41.tamay-dogan.net would work fine. What is the downside of having a rDNS entry? ...because my ISP @office (Alice) offer only fixed IP (85.182.220.41) with only but no rDNS, exactly, I have only e182220041.adsl.alicedsl.de. which interferer with my network. Ok. So you DO have rDNS, just not a customized one. That should not cause problems in most cases. Why are they rejected? Do you have any bounces with specific information? My mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net send me an error message back, that the receiving MTA can not resolv work1.intranet.tamay-dogan.net which is the first Received: header. That sounds like an MTA configuration. Why do you think it is related to SA? -- Bowie
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello RW, Am 2012-02-24 14:00:11, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: As far as positive scoring rules are concerned, Spamassassin should only care about the reverse dns of the last external relay, and mail.tamay-dogan.net has impeccable dns. Right, and it was a problem with spamassassin on listz.debian.org and the listadmins had changed something and since arround 2 years it works again. You haven't quoted any rules that are firing inappropriately. Do you have any evidence that this is anything to do with Spamassassin or reverse dns? ...because it is NOT my spamassassin which reject MY mails. There is something in spamassassin which does recursive rDNS lookups on all Received: headers RDNS_NONE shouldn't fire on a private IP address unless you've done something a bit challenging. Right, but I use courier, fetchmail, procmail and spamassassin since more then 10 years and it works perfectly. Only some domains/MTAs sending mails are weird... Can it be, that there are MX records, which point sometimes to a private IP address which confuse spamassassin? Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello Bowie Bailey, Am 2012-02-24 12:42:02, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: Why not? It doesn't have to be specific. public41.tamay-dogan.net would work fine. What is the downside of having a rDNS entry? ...because my ISP @office (Alice) offer only fixed IP (85.182.220.41) with only but no rDNS, exactly, I have only e182220041.adsl.alicedsl.de. which interferer with my network. Why are they rejected? Do you have any bounces with specific information? My mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net send me an error message back, that the receiving MTA can not resolv work1.intranet.tamay-dogan.net which is the first Received: header. Is there a was to solv this? That would depend entirely on what the actual problem is. The question is: WHY does the receiving MTA check the sending computer? Probably it will be in nearly all enterprises on a private IP range and not equiped with a public IP. Note: I see, not all spamassassin setups rejecting my mails including my own one if it receive mails from others and same setup. I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying your SA server has the same behavior you are complaining about or not? Some years ago it had, but since the upgrade to Debian/Lenny, the problem was gone silently. It was only a dist-upgrade and nothing has changed in the configuration, exept a new version of spamassassin Most tests in SA should not look beyond the first untrusted server. That would be mail.tamay-dogan.net in the case of your outgoing mail. Anything prior to that should be irrelevant -- particularly if they have private IP addresses. This is, why I am puzzeling arround. I like to find out, which part of spamassassin trigger this error. I get the same error, if I send E-Mails using my freenet.de account, exactly, I add an esmtproute to copurier-mta which use mail.freenet.de as authenticated SMTP relay and use my email linux4michelleOfreenet.de and normaly it just work, but the MTAs rejecting my own mails, reject even the freenet mails. So, the error is not on my end, but on the receiving MTA which make it very hard to debug things. I have already send those enterprises mails from my squirrelmail interface and was nicely received by the offending MTA... unfortunately the admins of the Mailsystems have absolutely no clue! They are even to sick to check there mail logs (IF they exist) Bowie Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Hello Joe Sniderman, Am 2012-02-24 18:45:52, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: c) Public mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net (78.47.247.21) d) Receiving mail server So far, so good. If now d) is runing spamassassin, thaen my messages are to 90% rejected. Strange. What tests are firing? I get only a MAILER-DAEMON message from mail.tamay-dogan.net that the receiving MTA say, it can not resolv work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. Since samba.intranet.tamay-dogan.net is in the same time my MASTER DNS and even for my private network/ subdomain intranet1.tamay-dogan.net, I was first thinking, my three NS dns1.tamay-dogan.net dns2.tamay-dogan.net dns3.tamay-dogan.net are accidently serving my private IPs to the public, but this is not the case: [ command 'dig work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net' ]--- work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600 IN A 192.168.0.13 intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600 IN NS dns1.tamay-dogan.net. intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600 IN NS dns.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600 IN NS dns2.tamay-dogan.net. intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600 IN NS dns3.tamay-dogan.net. dns.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600 IN A 192.168.0.11 dns1.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 78.47.104.44 dns2.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 217.147.94.23 dns3.tamay-dogan.net. 3600IN A 78.47.247.21 [ command 'dig work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net @dns1.tamay-dogan.net' ]-- Which mean, the subdomain intranet1.tamay-dogan.net is NOT exposed to the world even my internet NS has pointers to dns1, dns2 and dns3. But this has something to do with the views, because I have more then one intranet and all are using my public NS to update there records. Is there a was to solv this? Probably. First step is to find out what is causing it. ... and my brain stay smoking! Note: I see, not all spamassassin setups rejecting my mails including my own one if it receive mails from others and same setup. I'm not following.. Are you saying your SA setup is one of the setups that does reject your mails, or are you saying your SA setup is one of the setups that does not reject your mails? It does not reject MY mails, but sometimes it reject incoming mails for the same reason, like my mails are rejected by some other MTAs. FWIW, it looks as though the SA instance that apache is using in front of the mailing list is *not* tagging your posts as spam: X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.7 required=10.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS Right. Unfortunately some bigger Enterprises are rejecting my mails. However, they have fortunately good admins which whitelisted my domain but where not able to find out, what the reject trigered. They only use like me spamassassin as filter. HTH Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:17:36 +0100 Michelle Konzack wrote: You haven't quoted any rules that are firing inappropriately. Do you have any evidence that this is anything to do with Spamassassin or reverse dns? ...because it is NOT my spamassassin which reject MY mails. So there's no reason to think this has anything to do with Spamassassin. On Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:22:52 +0100 Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello Joe Sniderman, Am 2012-02-24 18:45:52, hacktest Du folgendes herunter: Strange. What tests are firing? I get only a MAILER-DAEMON message from mail.tamay-dogan.net that the receiving MTA say, it can not resolv work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net. I think that this is pretty conclusive that it's nothing to do with Spamassassin. It doesn't look anything like what I'd expect for a Spamassassin-based rejection. I looks like some basic MTA check. Another thing is that it's failing to find an A-record, so nothing to do with rDNS either. Have you checked to see if you are sending mail with an @work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net address in the smtp envelope.
Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
In relation to the previous poster with the fetchmail problem (the receiver should hide fetchmail received header by adding set invisible in the global section) I have the probvlem, that receiving MTAs runing spamassassin consider my mails as spam du to the received headers... Scenario: 1) My enterprise (exactly 5) has several internal subnets and each one is seperately protected by firewalls. 2) It is NOT possibel, to send mails to the internet trough 25/587 3) All mail must go via the INTRANET server which use a public relay So, now if I send a mail it looks like a) Workstation work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.13) b) Intranet Server samba.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.12) now using auth-smtp (my fixed IP @office is 85.182.220.41 but can not have rDNS) c) Public mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net (78.47.247.21) d) Receiving mail server If now d) is runing spamassassin, thaen my messages are to 90% rejected. Is there a was to solv this? Note: I see, not all spamassassin setups rejecting my mails including my own one if it receive mails from others and same setup. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack -- # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant ## Development of Intranet and Embedded Systems with Debian GNU/Linux Internet Service Provider, Cloud Computing http://www.itsystems.tamay-dogan.net/ itsystems@tdnet Jabber linux4miche...@jabber.ccc.de Owner Michelle Konzack Gewerbe Strasse 3 Tel office: +49-176-86004575 77694 Kehl Tel mobil: +49-177-9351947 Germany Tel mobil: +33-6-61925193 (France) USt-ID: DE 278 049 239 Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Am 24.02.2012 12:23, schrieb Michelle Konzack: In relation to the previous poster with the fetchmail problem (the receiver should hide fetchmail received header by adding set invisible in the global section) I have the probvlem, that receiving MTAs runing spamassassin consider my mails as spam du to the received headers... Scenario: 1) My enterprise (exactly 5) has several internal subnets and each one is seperately protected by firewalls. 2) It is NOT possibel, to send mails to the internet trough 25/587 3) All mail must go via the INTRANET server which use a public relay So, now if I send a mail it looks like a) Workstation work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.13) b) Intranet Server samba.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.12) now using auth-smtp (my fixed IP @office is 85.182.220.41 but can not have rDNS) c) Public mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net (78.47.247.21) d) Receiving mail server If now d) is runing spamassassin, thaen my messages are to 90% rejected. Is there a was to solv this? Note: I see, not all spamassassin setups rejecting my mails including my own one if it receive mails from others and same setup. Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack I am not realy sure if this fixes your problem but i have set score RDNS_NONE 0 cause the default points at this parameter looks like nonsense to me i have also a scenario with private net relays which will not have any reverse dns records ever -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:23:21 +0100 Michelle Konzack wrote: In relation to the previous poster with the fetchmail problem (the receiver should hide fetchmail received header by adding set invisible in the global section) That doesn't sound like like a optimum solution unless you're optimizing for minimum administrative effort. I have the probvlem, that receiving MTAs runing spamassassin consider my mails as spam du to the received headers... ... c) Public mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net (78.47.247.21) d) Receiving mail server If now d) is runing spamassassin, thaen my messages are to 90% rejected. As far as positive scoring rules are concerned, Spamassassin should only care about the reverse dns of the last external relay, and mail.tamay-dogan.net has impeccable dns. You haven't quoted any rules that are firing inappropriately. Do you have any evidence that this is anything to do with Spamassassin or reverse dns? On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:32:35 +0100 Robert Schetterer wrote: I am not realy sure if this fixes your problem but i have set score RDNS_NONE 0 cause the default points at this parameter looks like nonsense to me i have also a scenario with private net relays which will not have any reverse dns records ever RDNS_NONE shouldn't fire on a private IP address unless you've done something a bit challenging.
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On 2/24/2012 6:23 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote: In relation to the previous poster with the fetchmail problem (the receiver should hide fetchmail received header by adding set invisible in the global section) I have the probvlem, that receiving MTAs runing spamassassin consider my mails as spam du to the received headers... Scenario: 1) My enterprise (exactly 5) has several internal subnets and each one is seperately protected by firewalls. 2) It is NOT possibel, to send mails to the internet trough 25/587 3) All mail must go via the INTRANET server which use a public relay So, now if I send a mail it looks like a) Workstation work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.13) b) Intranet Server samba.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.12) now using auth-smtp (my fixed IP @office is 85.182.220.41 but can not have rDNS) Why not? It doesn't have to be specific. public41.tamay-dogan.net would work fine. What is the downside of having a rDNS entry? c) Public mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net (78.47.247.21) d) Receiving mail server If now d) is runing spamassassin, thaen my messages are to 90% rejected. Why are they rejected? Do you have any bounces with specific information? Is there a was to solv this? That would depend entirely on what the actual problem is. Note: I see, not all spamassassin setups rejecting my mails including my own one if it receive mails from others and same setup. I'm not sure I understand this statement. Are you saying your SA server has the same behavior you are complaining about or not? Most tests in SA should not look beyond the first untrusted server. That would be mail.tamay-dogan.net in the case of your outgoing mail. Anything prior to that should be irrelevant -- particularly if they have private IP addresses. -- Bowie
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
24.2.2012 13:23, Michelle Konzack kirjoitti: In relation to the previous poster with the fetchmail problem (the receiver should hide fetchmail received header by adding set invisible in the global section) I have the probvlem, that receiving MTAs runing spamassassin consider my mails as spam du to the received headers... Not here. Great negative score and no fear of spammines. X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.6 required=5.0 tests=KHOP_PGP_SIGNED, KHOP_RCVD_UNTRUST,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI,RCVD_IN_HOSTKARMA_W,RCVD_IN_RP_CERTIFIED, RCVD_IN_RP_SAFE,SPF_FAIL,T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Virus: No X-Spam-Report: * -3.0 RCVD_IN_RP_CERTIFIED RBL: Sender is in Return Path Certified * (trusted relay) * [Return Path SenderScore Certified (formerly] [Bonded Sender) - http://www.senderscorecertified.com] * -2.0 RCVD_IN_RP_SAFE RBL: Sender is in Return Path Safe (trusted relay) * [Return Path SenderScore Safe List (formerly] [Habeas Safelist) - http://www.senderscorecertified.com] * -5.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, high * trust * [140.211.11.3 listed in list.dnswl.org] * -0.1 RCVD_IN_HOSTKARMA_W RBL: HostKarma: relay in white list (first pass) * [140.211.11.3 listed in hostkarma.junkemailfilter.com] * -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay * domain * 0.0 SPF_FAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (fail) * -3.0 KHOP_PGP_SIGNED Message seems to contain PGP signature * 0.5 KHOP_RCVD_UNTRUST DNS-whitelisted sender is not verified X-Spam-ASN: AS3701 140.211.0.0/16 I just wonder where my BAYES went. Strange. -- Abandon the search for Truth; settle for a good fantasy. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
Am 24.02.2012 15:00, schrieb RW: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:32:35 +0100 Robert Schetterer wrote: I am not realy sure if this fixes your problem but i have set score RDNS_NONE 0 cause the default points at this parameter looks like nonsense to me i have also a scenario with private net relays which will not have any reverse dns records ever RDNS_NONE shouldn't fire on a private IP address unless you've done something a bit challenging. it passed time since i last investigated in this, last i remember was the default value of this parameter was low in former versions , but was highed in recent there were working workarounds described somewhere at problems what definite happened was that it fired against private networks without rdns therefor i lowed it to null, with no siginficant loosing in spam tagging as i remember, there were good reasons described why it works now as it is , and workarounds would fix problems, but in my case i cant use them for other tec designed reasons, perhaps it was to harsh describe it as nonsense i should better say i dont like it in my place and i see no help in catching more spam in having its defaults -- Best Regards MfG Robert Schetterer Germany/Munich/Bavaria
Re: Spamassassin detect my mails as spam
On 02/24/2012 06:23 AM, Michelle Konzack wrote: In relation to the previous poster with the fetchmail problem (the receiver should hide fetchmail received header by adding set invisible in the global section) I have the probvlem, that receiving MTAs runing spamassassin consider my mails as spam du to the received headers... Scenario: 1) My enterprise (exactly 5) has several internal subnets and each one is seperately protected by firewalls. 2) It is NOT possibel, to send mails to the internet trough 25/587 3) All mail must go via the INTRANET server which use a public relay So, now if I send a mail it looks like a) Workstation work1.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.13) b) Intranet Server samba.intranet1.tamay-dogan.net (192.168.0.12) now using auth-smtp (my fixed IP @office is 85.182.220.41 but can not have rDNS) c) Public mail server mail.tamay-dogan.net (78.47.247.21) d) Receiving mail server So far, so good. If now d) is runing spamassassin, thaen my messages are to 90% rejected. Strange. What tests are firing? Is there a was to solv this? Probably. First step is to find out what is causing it. Note: I see, not all spamassassin setups rejecting my mails including my own one if it receive mails from others and same setup. I'm not following.. Are you saying your SA setup is one of the setups that does reject your mails, or are you saying your SA setup is one of the setups that does not reject your mails? FWIW, it looks as though the SA instance that apache is using in front of the mailing list is *not* tagging your posts as spam: X-ASF-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.7 required=10.0 tests=RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW,SPF_PASS HTH -- Joe Sniderman joseph.snider...@thoroquel.org
