[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the EspaA+-oleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
To clarify, I do not use an octave on the G course. What I do is finger an octave G on the E course on a very few instances in one piece by Sanz (the 1st fugue), and for perhaps a couple of others (not necessarily Sanz) I'm considering a similar approach. I honestly find that fugue to be the only Sanz piece that really needs it -- otherwise full re-entrance works for me (so far). For me, thinking is the key to doing away with the so-called octave jumps. It's how you think about it. Consider the modern guitar. When playing a modal piece you will use a bass string as a drone. When playing modal passages in a more harmonic piece you will often do the same. Consider modern transcriptions of Sanz's Canarios -- the low E is tuned to a D, and you drone on that quite a lot. Well, what if that drone is notated at a place where a higher D makes sense with the melodic line? Would you call that an octave jump? I believe most modern guitarists would not, because our ears are accustomed. For me the trick with re-entrant tuning is to realize that the bass is grounded in the 3rd course. And so the music often leans on that grounding course in ways that are not unlike modern guitar music leaning on an A or E. That means your phrasing can make all the difference. Of course, you have to hear it that way... and then one must hope others hear it that way when you play it! One simple technique I've found is to let any note played on the 3rd course ring as long as humanly possible. Doing just that eliminates the sensation of jumping in very many cases. Or so I claim. The problem with the first fugue is that it's, well... it's a fugue. And so it has linear passages that really seem to fall down when they land on that lower G. Also, with full bordones the separation of the voices is more explicit because it falls on different registers, and the lines cross at the G. Without the bordones you have to think of two voices in the same register -- not so explicit as what we're used to in a fugue. cud __ From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com To: Franz Mechsner franz.mechs...@northumbria.ac.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com; Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 4:55:11 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the Espanoleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
One last clarification... I'm not suggesting any one method will solve all problems. Fate fore fend! I'm only relating my own experience as I've done my best to make sense out of one method of stringing. For me the bottom line is that it's loads of fun and it opens up musical possibilities. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, February 3, 2011 5:32:29 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Dear Everyone I think everything which Chris has said in his long message is very helpful and I agree with what he says. However I would not start out with the idea that most of the music is intended to be played with one method of stringing rather than another and that somehow you can eliminate all the anomalies which Franz has mentioned in his message with any particular method. As far as having a high octave string on the 3rd course is concerned - there is no documentary evidence that this method of tuning was ever used. The two manuscript sources which some people have claimed do show this method of stringing are not sufficiently clear to support such an idea. You can see the relevant pages in the essay about stringing on my webpage - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk Although this method of stringing is very popular at the moment IMHO it creates as many problems as it solves. And with gut strings you might have a problem. Aside from that I think you could play all the music in Corbetta's books of 1643 and 1648 and in Bartolotti's 1640 book with a re-entrant tuning. Quite a lot of Foscarini, Santiago de Murcia, Valdambrini if you can get a copy of it and can decipher it. James Tyler's tutor is now available and I guess it has quite a few pieces from different parts of the repertoire suitable for re-entrant tuning. I was amused by Chris's comment on Libro de Diferentes Cifras (m/811, 1705), edited by Francisco Alfonso Valdivia -- Monica is credited as a collaborator (sounds subversive). Francisco and I are friends but I am not sure that he would think the re-entrant tuning appropriate for the music in this manuscript. The choice is really yours. Hope that helped. Monica - Original Message - From: Peter Kooiman To: Franz Mechsner Cc: Vihuelalist ; Chris Despopoulos ; Harlan Glotzer ; Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 9:55 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello Franz, but some quite odd with melodylines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. I find that many of these jumps would disappear if a high octave string were used on the third course, as Chris also mentioned. I remember one place in Sanz (the Espanoleta in the very easy pieces for beginners in the foirst book) where both re-entrant and bourdon tuning would create either a seventh or a ninth jump, whereas re-entrant with upper ocatve g would not. Sanz however never mentions a high octave on thirds, and if I remember correctly there has been some discussion in the past as to the feasability of having a gut string tuned to g' without it breaking. IIRC Hopkinson Smith recorded his Sanz disc with high octave g, arguing that the tablature as written by Sanz calls for it. Regards Peter To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
-Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:48 AM To: Harlan Glotzer; Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? My personal hypothesis is that the 6-string guitar would not have developed without the benefit of bordones. Indeed, the 6-course guitar (double-strung) seems to have a short life in the period, and gives way to single courses very quickly. I beg forgiveness and correction if I'm wrong on that. In my opinion, there's no logical reason to have a fully re-entrant 6-course guitar. You end up repeating a note on one course or the other. [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
- Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:45 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Chris Despopoulos Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:48 AM To: Harlan Glotzer; Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? My personal hypothesis is that the 6-string guitar would not have developed without the benefit of bordones. Indeed, the 6-course guitar (double-strung) seems to have a short life in the period, and gives way to single courses very quickly. I beg forgiveness and correction if I'm wrong on that. In my opinion, there's no logical reason to have a fully re-entrant 6-course guitar. You end up repeating a note on one course or the other. [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Also, Lhoyer's early music never extends below a low A where his later music does. There is an evident transition to six strings as that format became increasingly popular. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Alexander Batov Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:00 PM Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5-course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:04 PM To: Alexander Batov Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5- course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
They've been around in Russia too. There are two original 19th century 5-string bandurkas in the St-Petersburg collection; shallow-bodied, fairly small in size (the one on your link looks like a re-construction to me). By the way, I've never heard about 5-course bandurkas ... Also, I'm not sure they are in any way related (i.e. music wise) to the guitar tradition. Alexander On 03/02/2011 18:04, Roman Turovsky wrote: 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I have just been reading part of the introduction to Alejandro Vera's edition of this new Murcia manuscript. In the passage dealing with the perenniel problem of which stringing to use he mentions that Neil Pennington thought Murcia's music was intended for the re-entrant tuning, Craig Russell and I (in 1984)opted for the French tuning, Richard Savino thinks you need octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses, Michael Lorimer thinks Murcia had octave strings on the 3rd and 4th courses and Frank Koonce thinks Murcia would have had several guitars and used different ones for different pieces. In some instances you would need to change instruments in mid-stream. Vera gives some interesting examples e.g. notes on the 1st course which belong in the lower octave and notes on the 5th course which even with a high octave string will be an octave too low. The point is (I think) that Murcia's music, and for that matter most other baroque guitar music, isn't intended for one method of stringing rather than another. It is arranged in such a way that it can be conveniently played on a 5-course instrument and in a way that makes the best use of the limitations which having only 5 courses imposes. It relies on the ambiguous tone quality of the instrument to create the desired effect. I am sure that re-entrant tunings were an integral feature of the instrument for this reason. I remember Chris pointing out that they have very obvious advantages when it comes to arrranging the music conveniently. This is certainly the case on the cittern which always had a re-entrant tuning. Arguments about whether the music conforms to the rules of music theory, and the idea that you can leave out one string of a course or strike it in such a way the emphasis falls on one or other string are futile. That's not what it is all about. Food for thought Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Alexander Batov' alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? ..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:04 PM To: Alexander Batov Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 12:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I don't think he ever did (the music just doesn't go lower than the open A string) but I suppose there is a presumption that it was most likely for a 5-string (i.e. single strung) guitar. 5-string guitars did certainly exist at the time. Also, some original 5-course guitars were converted to 5-string ones by changing their original bridges. Alexander PS: If I remember it correctly there are also a few arrangements of his music for the seven string Russian guitar (supposedly from his period in Russia between 1804 - 14). On 03/02/2011 15:49, Monica Hall wrote: [Eugene C. Braig IV] Indeed, at least relatively speaking. However, the 6-course instrument was largely a quirk of Spanish-speaking places. The rest of Europe seems to have gone to five single strings first (using the low octave at d and A, and probably often simply leaving their 5- course guitars single strung), then later adding the sixth at E. A fine example of 5-string guitar music and on of the earliest known concerti for guitar is Lhoyer's, published in Germany in the very early 19th c. Best, Eugene That's very interesting. Does Lloyer actually specify that his music is for a single strung 5-course guitar? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Well - yes. A lot of the pieces in Murcia's Passacalles y obras are actually his arrangements of pieces by other people and vary quite a lot. But stringing isn't obviously an issue. For example he has rearranged quite a few pieces by Campion which use different scordature in the original. He has re-intabulated them for the standard tuning. In some place there are note inegales written out. The variants are usually to the musical content rather than an attempt to adapt them to different stringing. I haven't had time to compare the same pieces in the different Murcia manuscripts yet. Some things are obvious. The strummed openings in the Saldivar codex are not included in the versions in Cifras selectas. In Marsellas - the strummed chords in some places which are in Resumen de acompanar have been eliminated. But a lot of the variations seem to be different. I have also compared some of the Corbetta pieces in the Gallot manuscript. Where these have apparently been copied from the printed books they don't vary very much but other pieces which may have been passed from one player to another aurally do vary. And so on. Quite an interesting topic. Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I like this thesis. Also, the music of these composers tends to exist both in publication and widely scattered manuscripts compiled by different individuals in different places. I wouldn't be surprised if different players transcribed it differently in their own manuscript versions to best suit their own personal stringing tastes. Where they occur, has anybody endeavored to compare the settings of single pieces across different sources, especially different manuscript sources of disparate origins? Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:11 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I have just been reading part of the introduction to Alejandro Vera's edition of this new Murcia manuscript. In the passage dealing with the perenniel problem of which stringing to use he mentions that Neil Pennington thought Murcia's music was intended for the re-entrant tuning, Craig Russell and I (in 1984)opted for the French tuning, Richard Savino thinks you need octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses, Michael Lorimer thinks Murcia had octave strings on the 3rd and 4th courses and Frank Koonce thinks Murcia would have had several guitars and used different ones for different pieces. In some instances you would need to change instruments in mid-stream. Vera gives some interesting examples e.g. notes on the 1st course which belong in the lower octave and notes on the 5th course which even with a high octave string will be an octave too low. The point is (I think) that Murcia's music, and for that matter most other baroque guitar music, isn't intended for one method of stringing rather than another. It is arranged in such a way that it can be conveniently played on a 5-course instrument and in a way that makes the best use of the limitations which having only 5 courses imposes. It relies on the ambiguous tone quality of the instrument to create the desired effect. I am sure that re-entrant tunings were an integral feature of the instrument for this reason. I remember Chris pointing out that they have very obvious advantages when it comes to arrranging the music conveniently. This is certainly the case on the cittern which always had a re-entrant tuning. Arguments about whether the music conforms to the rules of music theory, and the idea that you can leave out one string of a course or strike it in such a way the emphasis falls on one or other string are futile. That's not what it is all about. Food for thought Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Alexander Batov' alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? ..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Roman Turovsky Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 1:04 PM To: Alexander Batov Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? 5 course/string guitars survived into the 19th century in Ukraine: http://polyhymnion.org/images/bandurka.jpg ! RT - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Thanks for your thoughts, Monica. Eugene -Original Message- From: Monica Hall [mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:45 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - yes. A lot of the pieces in Murcia's Passacalles y obras are actually his arrangements of pieces by other people and vary quite a lot. But stringing isn't obviously an issue. For example he has rearranged quite a few pieces by Campion which use different scordature in the original. He has re-intabulated them for the standard tuning. In some place there are note inegales written out. The variants are usually to the musical content rather than an attempt to adapt them to different stringing. I haven't had time to compare the same pieces in the different Murcia manuscripts yet. Some things are obvious. The strummed openings in the Saldivar codex are not included in the versions in Cifras selectas. In Marsellas - the strummed chords in some places which are in Resumen de acompanar have been eliminated. But a lot of the variations seem to be different. I have also compared some of the Corbetta pieces in the Gallot manuscript. Where these have apparently been copied from the printed books they don't vary very much but other pieces which may have been passed from one player to another aurally do vary. And so on. Quite an interesting topic. Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 8:18 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I like this thesis. Also, the music of these composers tends to exist both in publication and widely scattered manuscripts compiled by different individuals in different places. I wouldn't be surprised if different players transcribed it differently in their own manuscript versions to best suit their own personal stringing tastes. Where they occur, has anybody endeavored to compare the settings of single pieces across different sources, especially different manuscript sources of disparate origins? Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Monica Hall Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:11 PM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I have just been reading part of the introduction to Alejandro Vera's edition of this new Murcia manuscript. In the passage dealing with the perenniel problem of which stringing to use he mentions that Neil Pennington thought Murcia's music was intended for the re-entrant tuning, Craig Russell and I (in 1984)opted for the French tuning, Richard Savino thinks you need octave stringing on the 4th and 5th courses, Michael Lorimer thinks Murcia had octave strings on the 3rd and 4th courses and Frank Koonce thinks Murcia would have had several guitars and used different ones for different pieces. In some instances you would need to change instruments in mid-stream. Vera gives some interesting examples e.g. notes on the 1st course which belong in the lower octave and notes on the 5th course which even with a high octave string will be an octave too low. The point is (I think) that Murcia's music, and for that matter most other baroque guitar music, isn't intended for one method of stringing rather than another. It is arranged in such a way that it can be conveniently played on a 5-course instrument and in a way that makes the best use of the limitations which having only 5 courses imposes. It relies on the ambiguous tone quality of the instrument to create the desired effect. I am sure that re-entrant tunings were an integral feature of the instrument for this reason. I remember Chris pointing out that they have very obvious advantages when it comes to arrranging the music conveniently. This is certainly the case on the cittern which always had a re-entrant tuning. Arguments about whether the music conforms to the rules of music theory, and the idea that you can leave out one string of a course or strike it in such a way the emphasis falls on one or other string are futile. That's not what it is all about. Food for thought Monica - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Roman Turovsky' r.turov...@verizon.net; 'Alexander Batov' alexander.ba...@vihuelademano.com Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 6:19 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? ..And not to mention into the present in some Latin American folk traditions. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Again forgive my newness, but this sparks an interesting question for me. Is there a list of composers who had the fully reenterant tuning in mind/played that way? I'm understanding now it was a largely Italian choice, but what pieces/composers/players should I look to with this tuning? Thanks!!! :) Harlan On Feb 1, 2011, at 1:54 AM, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: That's it. do what you think works best. You have my blessing... Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 8:37 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? I definitely don't want to spark anything. I'm just looking for any obvious prohibitions to using a fully re-entrant tuning with Roncalli. For me, first indications are good. But I'm fairly unwashed... I take your statement that he says nothing, to mean that I should go with what feels good. That makes me feel young again! cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 3:25:16 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Funny that it shouldn't have reached you before. I agree that the re-entrant tuning works perfectly for most of the repertoire. It is a misconception that the re-entrant tuning is somehow inadequate. As for Roncalli - as has already been pointed out he doesn't say anything at all on the subject. And as I have already said before I prefer the versions I have heard without a bordon on the 5th course. I think that the re-entrant tuning was probably the most widely used in Italy. But perhaps it is better not to spark off yet another discussion on this topic. (But I have already done so). Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Ha! I found this in my SPAM folder for some reason. I do not disagree in principle with this compromise. I tried it out for Sanz, however, and for *my* taste and for the expectations I have built up from close to a year of playing with no bordones, I can't get a satisfactory sound for Sanz with the bordon on the 4th course. That's just me. Oh, and I'm spreading out to Roncalli now, and I'm pretty happy with the sound so far sin bordones. But again, that's just me. Of course, I wonder whether that's accurate, and hope to ask without starting a row. If I pick up Corbetta's La Guitarre Royale, I will of necessity add the 4th bordon... Thanks your informed understanding of the music. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:37:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should re-christen it the English tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II Chris probably wont agree with me Whatever you do - enjoy. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer [3]hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos [7]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Dear Chris, Thank you so much for your posting which is very helpful for me as a beginner. I got some tablature music for baroque guitar by Gaspar Sanz from Rob MacKillop, stringed an old guitar with 5 strings of re-entrant tuning (simply with guitar strings) and realized that some of the pieces really sounded beautiful, but some quite odd with melody lines suddenly jumping an octave up or down. So I suspected that these were not written for re-entrant tuning, or only the upper string being re-entrant, but to take it like this seems also not convincing either. No idea what that means. Warm regards Franz __ Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu im Auftrag von Chris Despopoulos Gesendet: Do 03.02.2011 08:48 An: Harlan Glotzer; Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Betreff: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well, I think that's the big issue. There's a storm of controversy swirling around this very question, if I have followed the mailing list correctly. Gaspar Sanz has hinted rather strongly (in my opinion) that he prefers a full re-entrant stringing. A year ago, when I started on the instrument I went through exactly this problem. It was all the more difficult for me because I had played many Sanz pieces on the modern guitar -- it's downright wierd to get used to the lowest string in the middle of the instrument. But after heated rounds of messages, I gave up all thoughts of trying to selectively play the treble or bass string of the 4th and 5th courses (even that is controversial, and there are people who do this -- you must hear their results for yourself) -- for me it's too difficult to do it convincingly. So to prove to myself, I recorded some Sanz pieces with fully re-entrant stringing.. The results are on my site ([1][1]http://cudspan.net/baroque/) and rough as they are they convinced me to carry on that way. I've done so with Sanz for about a year now. In my experience there are *very few* if any Sanz pieces that don't work. For his first fugue I find it helps to add the higher G on a few phrases. I'd say that's the most problematic piece I've encountered in his work. Indeed, with bordones on 4th and 5th it sounds very rich. But to my ears there are many of his pieces that sound horrible with either of the bordones. (How jaded we become...) I also got the Libro de Diferentes Cifras (m/811, 1705), edited by Francisco Alfonso Valdivia -- Monica is credited as a collaborator (sounds subversive). I have found that very many of those pieces also work with fully re-entrant stringing. The campanelas in the Paracumbres, for example, would be unthinkable to me with bordones. On the other hand, the second-to-last variation is redundant without bordones. Not a problem, but questionable. The book seems to be a catalog rather than a singular obra, so I doubt it can answer your question. I'm branching out to Roncalli, as the thread indicates. So far so good, but I have to get the manuscript. So far I just have a free PDF that has the tablature flipped around (not sure why...). For the Sonate en Ottavo Tuono I see no problems whatsoever with full re-entrance... Assuming the PDF is faithful. In fact, it seems to beg for fully re-entrant tuning... The Preludio rings out wonderfully, the chords in the Alamanda and Corrente are light. My understanding (from Sanz, anyway) is that yes, those wacky Italians liked full re-entrance -- at least at the time that Sanz published his book. I glean from the history I've read that fashion was important and capricious, and I can only assume this was yet-another fashion. How did it start, why, etc. are all questions I certainly can't answer. Again, see the archives of this list, look to existing publications... Monica is recognized in this very field. My personal hypothesis is that the 6-string guitar would not have developed without the benefit of bordones. Indeed, the 6-course guitar (double-strung) seems to have a short life in the period, and gives way to single courses very quickly. I beg forgiveness and correction if I'm wrong on that. In my opinion, there's no logical reason to have a fully re-entrant 6-course guitar. You end up repeating a note on one course or the other. That hints to me that for as long as there was 5-course writing going on, re-entrance was a subcurrent that was either acknowledged (expressly or tacitly) or expressly denied (I think Guerau insisted on bordones, didn't he? And as Monica pointed out
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Funny that it shouldn't have reached you before. I agree that the re-entrant tuning works perfectly for most of the repertoire. It is a misconception that the re-entrant tuning is somehow inadequate. As for Roncalli - as has already been pointed out he doesn't say anything at all on the subject. And as I have already said before I prefer the versions I have heard without a bordon on the 5th course. I think that the re-entrant tuning was probably the most widely used in Italy. But perhaps it is better not to spark off yet another discussion on this topic. (But I have already done so). Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Ha! I found this in my SPAM folder for some reason. I do not disagree in principle with this compromise. I tried it out for Sanz, however, and for *my* taste and for the expectations I have built up from close to a year of playing with no bordones, I can't get a satisfactory sound for Sanz with the bordon on the 4th course. That's just me. Oh, and I'm spreading out to Roncalli now, and I'm pretty happy with the sound so far sin bordones. But again, that's just me. Of course, I wonder whether that's accurate, and hope to ask without starting a row. If I pick up Corbetta's La Guitarre Royale, I will of necessity add the 4th bordon... Thanks your informed understanding of the music. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:37:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should re-christen it the English tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II Chris probably wont agree with me Whatever you do - enjoy. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer [3]hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos [7]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall [8]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [9]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [10]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I definitely don't want to spark anything. I'm just looking for any obvious prohibitions to using a fully re-entrant tuning with Roncalli. For me, first indications are good. But I'm fairly unwashed... I take your statement that he says nothing, to mean that I should go with what feels good. That makes me feel young again! cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 3:25:16 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Funny that it shouldn't have reached you before. I agree that the re-entrant tuning works perfectly for most of the repertoire. It is a misconception that the re-entrant tuning is somehow inadequate. As for Roncalli - as has already been pointed out he doesn't say anything at all on the subject. And as I have already said before I prefer the versions I have heard without a bordon on the 5th course. I think that the re-entrant tuning was probably the most widely used in Italy. But perhaps it is better not to spark off yet another discussion on this topic. (But I have already done so). Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Chris Despopoulos To: [2]Monica Hall Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:41 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Ha! I found this in my SPAM folder for some reason. I do not disagree in principle with this compromise. I tried it out for Sanz, however, and for *my* taste and for the expectations I have built up from close to a year of playing with no bordones, I can't get a satisfactory sound for Sanz with the bordon on the 4th course. That's just me. Oh, and I'm spreading out to Roncalli now, and I'm pretty happy with the sound so far sin bordones. But again, that's just me. Of course, I wonder whether that's accurate, and hope to ask without starting a row. If I pick up Corbetta's La Guitarre Royale, I will of necessity add the 4th bordon... Thanks your informed understanding of the music. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:37:23 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should re-christen it the English tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II Chris probably wont agree with me Whatever you do - enjoy. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer [3]hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos [4]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist [6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos [7]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall [8]mjlh
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Yes, gauge your frets as on other gut strung plucked instruments: it enables the instrument to be set as fine as possible ie with strings as close to the fingerboard as possible but without excessive adjacent fret rattles. Use the 'French' (sometimes called the 'Corbetta') tuning with a low bourdon only on the 4th course but both 5th course strings at the upper octave MH --- On Thu, 20/1/11, Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com wrote: From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 20 January, 2011, 18:59 Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Yes - I actually have a photocopy of it but it is nice to have the digital reference. Best Monica - Original Message - From: A. J. Ness arthurjn...@verizon.net To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Did you see the guitar tablature Toshiaki linked us to? BSB Mus.ms.1522: Alfabeto/mixed guitar tablature (Bavarian provenance): Tabulaturbuch fuer Guitarre [ex-libris:] H. M. Adelaide di Sauoia, Ellettria di Bauaria http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0005/bsb00050861/images/ There's a tuning and alfabeto on folio 9. The book has blank pages after foilio 28. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Welcome! I can't really answer the first part of your question as I am not an instrument maker. In order to answer the second part we need to know what you mean by the Spanish tuning as this is not a recognised definition of any particlar tuning/stringing. And also which part of the Spanish repertoire you are drawn to as it is rather varied and opinion differs as to what is appropriate. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:59 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same instrument. On the other hand, your disadvantages will largely be with yuor right hand, in my opinion. I happen to believe that's the more important hand. The left hand is what drives the harmony and text, but the right hand is what turns it into music. As you listen to baroque playing, you should close your eyes and try to *feel* how it is to make your right hand do all that. I wish you the best of luck with your plans to build the guitar. As you get to specific issues, I'm sure people on this list can offer much information -- historical and practical. Cheers cud __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:59:05 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Harlan, I have built and re-fretted a bunch of period instruments (romantic and renaissance guitars, and lutes) and it is likely you will need a few gauges of gut for the frets (gamut strings is the easiest place to get them). If the action is low the first three/four frets will need to be stepped down (ex: 1mm .95mm .90mm .85 to end). A higher action off the bridge will allow you to avoid this step down, but will change the playing action and potentially the sound. There is more then one opinion on this and many builders try for a single gauge and end up scaling down to avoid buzzing off lower frets when the instrument is first strung up. This all assumes the soundboard/neck to fingerboard angle is held at 0 degrees when built. Any change in this dramatically effects the action and all bets are off. If you have other questions get in contact. Blair On Jan 20, 2011, at 11:59 AM, Harlan Glotzer wrote: Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood (and a friend of mine is a luthier so I should be able to get some of my questions fielded). Two questions, however, that seem to elude me concern frets and strings. Do I need to gauge my frets as I move up the neck? Or can I just use a fixed gauge of gut/nylon/etc? The other is a more performance oriented question. What stringing/tuning scheme would you suggest for a beginner? I seem go be most drawn to the Spanish music, but am a complete beginner on the guitar, and I'm also afraid the Spanish tuning will limit what I can play (I'd like to experiment with new/modern music as well). What tuning/stringing do you prefer and why? Any advice on building, fretting, tuning, and the playing of the baroque guitar would be most helpful. Thanks! Harlan To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. I couldn't agree more! I am a dedicated re-entrant tuner myself. To my delight someone in Italy has just sent me a little manuscript with clear tuning instructions for the re-entrant tuning too. Made my day! In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. I just didn't want our new member to start worrying too much about the method of stringing he wants to use. Monica __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
I'd follow that overthinking line of thought... Pick one, and plunge. Than after a while, pick another and plunge. Don't stick on any one unless you are getting special inspiration from it. Or, if you want to strive for historical accuracy, then you do have to let the composer guide you to some extent, as far as that's possible. Like I hinted at before, the archives of this list should amaze you with the amount of discussion this very topic can generate. There's no end to how seriously you can take this subject... You're at the right place if you want pointers for handling a specific composer, era, or song/dance form. As for pulling out the axe and strumming along... My family's been known to play XMas carols with trumpet, French horn, clarinet, and me strumming along. Sometimes my ukulele, and sometimes my baroque guitar. No controversey about the way it's strung. And in my experience, people who ordinarily roll their eyes when you bring out a modern guitar (believe me, I have decades of experience in that) actually kind of perk up when they see a baroque one. __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 5:11:42 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos [3]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1][5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2][6]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3][7]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
As far as I am concerned a bourdon on the 4th course but not on the 5th is the answer to every maiden's prayer. It is compromise, and in the real world compromises are what work best. And I think we should re-christen it the English tuning because it is the tuning Corbetta intended for his La guitarre royale. He composed all the music in it whilst he was in England and dedicated it to good King Charles II Chris probably wont agree with me Whatever you do - enjoy. Monica - Original Message - From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 10:11 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Thank you both for you speedy and detailed replies! I guess I am wondering what the most universally useful stringing would be (bourdons on 4 5, bourdon on 4 only, no bourdons). I do understand that there is no silver bullet stringing that will be perfect for everything and that I will have to experiment, but since I will be first starting I think it would behoove me to not have my stringing limit the pieces I can explore. That said, I am very interested in the works of Sanz and the no bourdons tuning. My fear is that it would limit my ability to bring my guitar out and strum chords with people, etc. I wholly accept I may be overthinking this and should just pick one and plunge in. :p On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com wrote: Well said, Monica. There's no doubt that it's easy to change the stringing, and many, if not most, contemporary baroque guitarists do just that. It has no effect one way or the other on the construction of the instrument, indeed. I just wanted to point out that there's no intrinsic limit to the musicality you can pull out of the instrument if you do opt for a full re-entrant tuning. In the process I thought I'd try for a little levity (as opposed to gravity) -- well, I can't vouch for any success on that front. And of course, I botched up the history... Thanks for the clarification. cud __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 3:51:30 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer [2]hargloresea...@gmail.com; [3]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Well - it is a serious mis-nomer to call the re-entrant tuning Spanish. The Spanish would turn in their graves. What dear old Sanz says is In stringing there is variety, because in Rome musicians string the guitar only with thin strings, without a bourdon on either the fourth or fifth course. In Spain the opposite is the case since some use two bourdons on the fourth course and another two on the fifth and at least, as is usual, one on each course. In other words in Spain stringing with octaves on the 4th and 5th course is the norm. It is in Italy, and other places that the re-entrant tuning is more common. Amat and Ribayaz also describe the tuning with octaves on the 4th and 5th courses and Guerau also implies that this is the method suitable for his music. Santiago de Murcia keeps his own counsel on the matter. Added to which Sanz doesn't actually say that the re-entrant tuning must be used for his music or the skies will fall on you. So if you want to, I would say feel free to use octave stringing even if you want to play Sanz. But it is not difficult to change the stringing on your instrument and it has no bearing on how it is constructed or fretted so you could try different methods as you wish. Hope you are not thoroughly confused by now. Monica - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com To: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com; vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:09 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start? Hi Harlan... Some comments from an amateur... I believe I have seen some references to graduating the fret gut as you move up the neck, but I can't remember where. Nonetheless, my guitar uses the same size gut for all the frets, and it was made by a very reputable person who not only builds instruments, but teaches, realizes ancient instruments, and realizes ancient building techniques. If by the so-called Spanish tuning you mean stringing your instrument in the manner some people argue may or may not have been supported (or not) by the writings of Spanish (and other) composers, including Gaspar Sanz, then I would guess you mean fully re-entrant tuning with no bass strings on the A and D courses. (If you want to entertain yourself, look through the archives of this list to see how inflamed that topic can be. It's almost as howling as the question of playing with fingernails was in Tarrega's day.) I can say the following: 1 I currently have my instrumnet strung in a fully re-entrant manner. 2 I find there is no limitation in the range, power, or musicality of the pieces I'm playing at the moment. I'm mostly focussed on Gaspar Sanz. 3 I also find zero limitations where modern composition is concerned. In fact, I was asked to compose ap piece -- an attempt at minimalism (sadly, it approaches New Age much more than I would have liked) and I can tell you that the only limitations were my own. If you want to hear it, let me know and I'll post it to my web site. 4 Counter to intuition, I find the voicings and patterns to be liberating -- for now at least. 5 I'm still learning -- that's a good thing. Coming fresh to this instrument may be a great advantage to you. You will not be prejudiced by having played the same pieces on a modern guitar. Also, Spanish tablature is upside down for modern musicians, which makes it harder to deal with, the more experience you have with the modern instrument. But make no mistake, the baroque guitar is an instrument of its own, and you can't successfully treat is as yet-another-variation on the modern guitar. That would be like saying the electric guitar and the classical guitar are the same instrument. On the other hand, your disadvantages will largely be with yuor right hand, in my opinion. I happen to believe that's the more important hand. The left hand is what drives the harmony and text, but the right hand is what turns it into music. As you listen to baroque playing, you should close your eyes and try to *feel* how it is to make your right hand do all that. I wish you the best of luck with your plans to build the guitar. As you get to specific issues, I'm sure people on this list can offer much information -- historical and practical. Cheers cud __ From: Harlan Glotzer hargloresea...@gmail.com To: vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thu, January 20, 2011 1:59:05 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Baroque guitar, where to start? Hello all, I have recently joined this list and it is great. I am gearing up to build my first baroque guitar and am getting more and more excited by the day waiting for the plan (Ashmolean 1642 Rene Voboam). I have built instruments before so I am no stranger to working with wood
[VIHUELA] Re: Baroque guitar, where to start?
Did you see the guitar tablature Toshiaki linked us to? BSB Mus.ms.1522: Alfabeto/mixed guitar tablature (Bavarian provenance): Tabulaturbuch fuer Guitarre [ex-libris:] H. M. Adelaide di Sauoia, Ellettria di Bauaria http://daten.digitale-sammlungen.de/0005/bsb00050861/images/ There's a tuning and alfabeto on folio 9. The book has blank pages after foilio 28. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
