[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Hi, But to move on: I'm intrigued that you refer to a 'continuo bass' whereas in the context of Marini's songs I speak of an 'independent bass' line. I agree that a basso continuo (which I translated to 'continuo bass') may have melodic interest, as in Il Verno. In view of this, it may be that what actually seperates us is that you see all Marini's bass lines as providing just the framework for the harmony whereas, in some of the pieces, I see a more independent line which not only indicates the harmony but provides additional melodic interest to the top line. We perfectly agree In Il Verno, which is the specific example I focussed on earlier, you'll see that there are passages in the bass which respond directly to the vocal line (eg bar 4 and 5 ) even tho' the harmony in each bar (eg the guitar alfabeto) remains static. I see an indepedent bass instrument (theorbo, bowed bass, etc) as being essential in such circumstances in fully realising the composer's intentions. In the case of Il Verno we would indeed lose a good bass line. Still, composers have made arrangements of polyphonic madrigals to solo songs with continuo, and vice versa. It is always hard to know what the composer's intentions were. They may have been open for a wider array of performance options, and perhaps for reasons other than economic profit. I usually do the simpler songs, which seem 'piu proprie' for guitar accompaniment. Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
But dear Monica,
I'm specifically NOT saying requiring an additional bass instrument
(such as theorbo or bowed bass) was general practice - merely that I
think it best for Marini's songs with an indepedent bass line (like Il
Verno).
rgds to both of you
Martyn
Where's the revolver?.
--- On Tue, 26/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 14:25
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century
Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Both of You
> I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others')
writings I see no word about having found references to the guitar +
bowed string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had
read that somewhere.
I think I have to say that I agree with Lex. I thought the whole
point about this early 17th century Italian song repertoire was that
the singer accompanied themselves (if they could) supposedly in
imitation of what the ancient Greeks did. Surely this is received
wisdom. An over simplification perhaps but still.
They are not often performed in this way today and they may not always
have been performed in that way in the 17th century. But the current
fashion for having a large continuo group is probably inappropriate.
The fact that the alfabeto rarely matches the bass part correctly
rules out possibility of the guitarist playing along with the bass
line in most of this repertoire - at least as it is written. The
songs work perfectly well accompanied only by theorbo and also with a
simple strummed guitar accompaniment as Lex has demonstrated on his
recording of the Obizzi etc. songs.
I think this thread has got a bit mixed up - because we started with
Granata - and then went on to Grenerin. In this later repertoire the
guitar is realizing the written bass part - reproducing it as far as is
practical - in the same way as any other instrument. Lex and I
disagree as to whether in this set of circumstances the bass line would
be doubled by another instrument. I can se no reason why it shouldn't
be and depending on what is being accompanied a larger continuo group
would be work better.
Best
Monica
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex,
I've just posted to Monica about our continuing efforts to
misunderstand each other by not very carefully reading what is being
written and am sorry to say this is happening yet again: incidentally I
point the finger at all three of us.
So yet again - sigh. I did not say ' that having a bass in
counterpoint to the melody is to be preferred.' ! What I actually
said was that in (the relatively few) cases like the 1622 Marini where
there is an independent bass line as well as alfabeto to accompany the
song then the bass is best played (either on a theorbo, bowed bass or
other).
But to move on: I'm intrigued that you refer to a 'continuo bass'
whereas in the context of Marini's songs I speak of an 'independent
bass' line. In view of this, it may be that what actually seperates us
is that you see all Marini's bass lines as providing just the framework
for the harmony whereas, in some of the pieces, I see a more
independent line which not only indicates the harmony but provides
additional melodic interest to the top line. In Il Verno, which is the
specific example I focussed on earlier, you'll see that there are
passages in the bass which respond directly to the vocal line (eg bar 4
and 5 ) even tho' the harmony in each bar (eg the guitar alfabeto)
remains static. I see an indepedent bass instrument (theorbo, bowed
bass, etc) as being essential in such circumstances in fully realising
the composer's intentions.
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 26/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 13:35
Dear Martyn
> My observations were withing the context of songs with an
independent
> basso part in addition to the guitar alfabeto, such as the Marini
1622
> collection. Clearly, if only the alfabeto were present then I'd
> generally expect only the guitar. I'd be very grateful if you'd
read
> my postings with more care - it might save us both a lot of time!
The present discussion was indeed about Marini 1622, and I had that
book in mind, not other collections with just text and alfabeto.
> And yes, I do think that where an independent basso part is present
and
> the guitar is strumming chords then the bass line is best played by
> another instrument: bowed bass, theorbo (just solo line?) or other.
The
> alternative which you appear to be suggesting is that we dispense
with
> the written bass line altogether if the guitar strums chords.
That seems a reasonable assumption, yes. As remarked earlier, there are
very many collections with alfabeto + continuo. Many more than there
are books with alfabeto without continuo bass.
As I asked in my last message, where would the references be to voice +
guitar + other bass line instruments?
To not waste your time again: of course it can be argued that the many
existing references would all apply to singing to the guitar a
repertoire which had no continuo line. This doesn't completely convince
me.
I think 'they' did not care much, while singing to the guitar was very
much a matter of fashion/image.
> Are you
> really sure this is what the various other people you mention
really
> believe?
I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others') writings
I see no word about having found references to the guitar + bowed
string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had read that
somewhere.
best, Lex
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[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin Dear Both of You I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others') writings I see no word about having found references to the guitar + bowed string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had read that somewhere. I think I have to say that I agree with Lex. I thought the whole point about this early 17th century Italian song repertoire was that the singer accompanied themselves (if they could) supposedly in imitation of what the ancient Greeks did. Surely this is received wisdom. An over simplification perhaps but still. They are not often performed in this way today and they may not always have been performed in that way in the 17th century. But the current fashion for having a large continuo group is probably inappropriate. The fact that the alfabeto rarely matches the bass part correctly rules out possibility of the guitarist playing along with the bass line in most of this repertoire - at least as it is written. The songs work perfectly well accompanied only by theorbo and also with a simple strummed guitar accompaniment as Lex has demonstrated on his recording of the Obizzi etc. songs. I think this thread has got a bit mixed up - because we started with Granata - and then went on to Grenerin. In this later repertoire the guitar is realizing the written bass part - reproducing it as far as is practical - in the same way as any other instrument. Lex and I disagree as to whether in this set of circumstances the bass line would be doubled by another instrument. I can se no reason why it shouldn't be and depending on what is being accompanied a larger continuo group would be work better. Best Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn My observations were withing the context of songs with an independent basso part in addition to the guitar alfabeto, such as the Marini 1622 collection. Clearly, if only the alfabeto were present then I'd generally expect only the guitar. I'd be very grateful if you'd read my postings with more care - it might save us both a lot of time! The present discussion was indeed about Marini 1622, and I had that book in mind, not other collections with just text and alfabeto. And yes, I do think that where an independent basso part is present and the guitar is strumming chords then the bass line is best played by another instrument: bowed bass, theorbo (just solo line?) or other. The alternative which you appear to be suggesting is that we dispense with the written bass line altogether if the guitar strums chords. That seems a reasonable assumption, yes. As remarked earlier, there are very many collections with alfabeto + continuo. Many more than there are books with alfabeto without continuo bass. As I asked in my last message, where would the references be to voice + guitar + other bass line instruments? To not waste your time again: of course it can be argued that the many existing references would all apply to singing to the guitar a repertoire which had no continuo line. This doesn't completely convince me. Now you say that having a bass in counterpoint to the melody is to be preferred. I think 'they' did not care much, while singing to the guitar was very much a matter of fashion/image. Are you really sure this is what the various other people you mention really believe? I have no idea what they believe, but in their (and others') writings I see no word about having found references to the guitar + bowed string, and I suppose anyone would have told so if he/she had read that somewhere. best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn,
The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F
That is exactly what I said. It is the first inversion of a minor 7th
chord on the 2nd degree of the scale and as you say it is very common in
this
repertoire. The notes which the chord includes are D F A C. C is
the 7th and F is the 3rd and is in the bass. What you call it is
immaterial. The voice part is D E F C. The E is a passing note (and
it is not clear whether it should be E flat or E natural). The other three
notes define the chord.
> However on the guitar, where common
alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is
obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the
upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an
F major chord).
Again this is exactly what I said. There is no problem as far
as I am concerned with the guitar alfabeto here.
in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony
over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more
harmonic frisson.
I think you are confusing the alfabeto with the continuo part. Repeating
the F major chord is Ok if there is no G in the bass. You seemed to be
saying that you would repeat the F major chord - omitting the D - which is
no longer present in the voice part. What I would do is repeat Dminor7
over the G in the bass. I was at first inclined to omit the A - but it is in
fact the 9th of the chord - so no problem. It is a dominant 9th chord with
a suspended 4th.
So coming full circle to our original
discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection:
page 10 second half of bar 13:
But this is a different progression altogether. It's a major 7th chord on
the 4th degree of the scale or really just a passing 6/4 with combined with
a lower auxiliary note in the bass.
Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was
accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces
for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in
this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't
therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622
collection is beyond me
I think you are jumping the gun here - in 1622 the guitar only played
alfabeto. Granata's pieces are in lute style with only occasional alfabeto
chords.
Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more
convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho'
might have been played as such):
Well - yes I agree with that.
Rgds
Monica
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18
Dear Martyn
> It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a
G
> which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing
> dissonance which is then resolved.
But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the
voice part
is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor
chord -
F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still
singing
D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th
chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C.
The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely - in
fact
it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it rather
than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony
with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even think of
playing an F major chord there?
The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord can
also belong to
the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me
inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which
conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are
completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of the
problem.
> I'm slowly losing the will to live ...
It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical example
and an instrument to hand.
Regards
Monica
> --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early
17th
> century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40
>
> > Re
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex,
My observations were withing the context of songs with an independent
basso part in addition to the guitar alfabeto, such as the Marini 1622
collection. Clearly, if only the alfabeto were present then I'd
generally expect only the guitar. I'd be very grateful if you'd read
my postings with more care - it might save us both a lot of time!
And yes, I do think that where an independent basso part is present and
the guitar is strumming chords then the bass line is best played by
another instrument: bowed bass, theorbo (just solo line?) or other. The
alternative which you appear to be suggesting is that we dispense with
the written bass line altogether if the guitar strums chords. Are you
really sure this is what the various other people you mention really
believe? - I very much doubt it. And. more to the point - is it really
what you believe?
regards
Martyn
--- On Tue, 26/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Tuesday, 26 April, 2011, 11:23
> Incidentally, I'm not suggesting bowed bass for the songs if the
theorbo is present - only if the guitar is used without the theorbo.
And if the guitar and theorbo were both present then the theorbo need
only play the bass line - a mode which is documented. Indeed to avoid
too much plucking I would certainly favour a single line plucked bass
if the guitar was present
It seems you prefer ensemble performance with a separate bass, if a
guitar would be involved. There is a wealth of information from pre
1600 to c 1650 time testifying of singing to the guitar. And where can
we read (see) about singing to the guitar + bowed bass or guitar +
theorbo? (Please note that I don't say 'never' or 'impossible'.)
As I understand from reading what others have said about the use of
bowed string in basso continuo, for example Borgir, O'Dette + Ashworth,
Sayce, I have the impression that they have not found much either,
regarding combinations with the guitar. It seems bowed bass was mainly
used in certain other genres.
best, Lex
To get on or off this list see list information at
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References
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[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Incidentally, I'm not suggesting bowed bass for the songs if the theorbo is present - only if the guitar is used without the theorbo. And if the guitar and theorbo were both present then the theorbo need only play the bass line - a mode which is documented. Indeed to avoid too much plucking I would certainly favour a single line plucked bass if the guitar was present It seems you prefer ensemble performance with a separate bass, if a guitar would be involved. There is a wealth of information from pre 1600 to c 1650 time testifying of singing to the guitar. And where can we read (see) about singing to the guitar + bowed bass or guitar + theorbo? (Please note that I don't say 'never' or 'impossible'.) As I understand from reading what others have said about the use of bowed string in basso continuo, for example Borgir, O'Dette + Ashworth, Sayce, I have the impression that they have not found much either, regarding combinations with the guitar. It seems bowed bass was mainly used in certain other genres. best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica,
The F major chord against the note d is simply a 65 chord on a bass F
(as I mentioned earlier in this thread): this chord is extremely common
at the time (and indeed many other times) as leading up to a cadential
43 chord. It is the body of contextural experience (and the estimable
rule of the octave) which allows us to realise the bass without
figures. And yes - certainly I would (and do) automatically think of
playing 65 chords in such contexts. However on the guitar, where common
alfabeto has no discrete symbols for such chords, the arranger is
obliged to use what is available: since there is already a 6th in the
upper part, a chord supplying the 5th was inserted in the guitar (ie an
F major chord).
As an added bonus, as we have been discussing ad naseum in this thread,
in this case Marini (or whoever) has also simply extended the harmony
over a G in the bass in anticipation of the 43 to provide a bit more
harmonic frisson.
As said previously, we ought not to think such passing dissonances are
so very unusual and there are, of course, numerous other short harmonic
sequences which provide similar effects which the Old Ones (especially
in this period) seemed to like. So coming full circle to our original
discussion, I point you in the direction of Granata's 1674 collection:
page 10 second half of bar 13: note the nice chord tablature 022 (ie D
with sharp 7th). The vital C# (sharp 7th) is neither in the violin
part nor, of course, in the very basic figures of the basso part.
Incidentally, you asked for an example of where the guitar was
accompanied by a bowed bass and, of course, it is in these very pieces
for 'Chitarra Spagnola, Violino, e Viola' as mentioned much earlier in
this thread. Since the form was known, why Marini (or whoever) didn't
therefore add alfabeto to the instrumental ritornelli in his 1622
collection is beyond me - except to say that he only mentions theorbo
(not a bowed bass) as an option and perhaps he felt too much plucking
(ie guitar as well as theorbo) was excessive in the context of a simple
ritornello (as also suggested earlier in this thread).
Finally, having just looked at Granata1674 again, I'm now rather more
convinced the concertati pieces were not conceived as guitar sols (tho'
might have been played as such): there's just to many places where the
upper melodic line vanishes or goes down an octave. For example page 6,
end of bar 6 and first beat of bar 7 ( - I suggest the octave shift
here was to be able to play the E maj chord in the root position rather
than playing M2 shape after the preceding two notes if at the upper
octave - as Vn part).
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 18:18
Dear Martyn
> It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a
G
> which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing
> dissonance which is then resolved.
But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the
voice part
is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor
chord -
F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still
singing
D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th
chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C.
The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely - in
fact
it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it rather
than a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony
with the voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even think of
playing an F major chord there?
The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord can
also belong to
the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me
inappropriate. You still get a nice dissonance without it which
conforms to all the rules of counterpoint. Marini's basses are
completely un-figured so how do you decide? This is part of the
problem.
> I'm slowly losing the will to live ...
It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical example
and an instrument to hand.
Regards
Monica
> --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
> From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early
17th
> century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> To: "Martyn Hodgson" <[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
> C
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn
It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G
which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing
dissonance which is then resolved.
But why would you play an F major chord there at all? The note in the
voice part
is D - a 6th above the bass - implying a 1st inversion of a D minor chord -
F A D.If you are going to play F A C, the voice part is still singing
D. Therefore the complete chord is a minor 7th
chord on the 2nd degree of the scale - D F A C.
The fact that the guitar has an F major chord is irrelevant surely - in fact
it is a bit of a red herring although Marini may have chosen it rather than
a D minor chord because it does create the appropriate harmony with the
voice part. If there was no alfabeto would you even think of
playing an F major chord there?
The point I was making is that the C and the F in the first chord can also
belong to
the second, but including A in the second chord seems to me inappropriate.
You still get a nice dissonance without it which conforms to all the rules
of counterpoint. Marini's basses are completely un-figured so how do you
decide? This is part of the problem.
I'm slowly losing the will to live ...
It is very difficult to discuss these things without musical example and an
instrument to hand.
Regards
Monica
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40
> Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are
> imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style.
Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the perfect solution
for
me at least.
On F you play iib7
On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part are the the
dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the 7th and the
4th are
prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the cadence.
Not being a continuo player these solutions are not immediatly obvious
to me
and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th century I
don't
know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the
accomapniment.
O happy day - the sun is shining.
Rgds
Monica
> >> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were
> later
> >> added.
> I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out
of
> the
> blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well
defined
> alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some
of
> the
> songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that
rather
> than
> just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the
voice
> part
> whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit
well
> defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to
the
> melodies with their bass lines.
> >> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the
upper
> part
> >> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and
> >> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio
et
> al. It
> >> also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to
> smooth
> >> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers
> sometimes
> >> attempted.
> It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make
> sense.
> The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs
> frequently
> in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the
> guitar part -
> because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an
> instance
> where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think
they
> should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass
when
> the melody
> has f-c.
> >
> > Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide,
> while
> > with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty.
> The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and
harmony
> is.
> It has nothing to do with the alfabeto.
> Regards
> Monica
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [1][1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
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>
> References
>
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>
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References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica,
It really is easier just think of it as an Fmajor chord held over a G
which is anticipating the cadence and creating a momentary passing
dissonance which is then resolved.
If I really had to figure it I'd simply put the well used figuring
sign - a dash - under the first G in the pass to show the previous
harmony is held over until the next beat (G4 )
I'm slowly losing the will to live ...
regards
Martyn
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 15:40
> Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are
> imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style.
Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the perfect solution
for
me at least.
On F you play iib7
On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part are the the
dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the 7th and the
4th are
prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the cadence.
Not being a continuo player these solutions are not immediatly obvious
to me
and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th century I
don't
know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the
accomapniment.
O happy day - the sun is shining.
Rgds
Monica
> >> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were
> later
> >> added.
> I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out
of
> the
> blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well
defined
> alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some
of
> the
> songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that
rather
> than
> just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the
voice
> part
> whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit
well
> defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to
the
> melodies with their bass lines.
> >> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the
upper
> part
> >> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and
> >> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio
et
> al. It
> >> also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to
> smooth
> >> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers
> sometimes
> >> attempted.
> It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make
> sense.
> The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs
> frequently
> in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the
> guitar part -
> because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an
> instance
> where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think
they
> should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass
when
> the melody
> has f-c.
> >
> > Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide,
> while
> > with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty.
> The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and
harmony
> is.
> It has nothing to do with the alfabeto.
> Regards
> Monica
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > [1][1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
> --
>
> References
>
> 1. [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Oh dear
In Marini, why should not the bass line instrument (theorbo, bowed
bass) just play the bass line of the song since the guitar isn't
producing a bass line (and it's occasionaly of interest).
No reason at all - except that it might not fit with the harmony which I
have carefully worked out and am rather proud of!. (See my last message).
Rgds
M
.
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 14:57
> I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar
> would be doing an F major at the same moment.
If we are still talking about Marini surely the theorbo and guitar are
not meant to be playing together. It's either or - or have I lost the
plot completely? Are you not confusing Grenerin with alfabeto songs.
Different repertoire etc.
With a bowed string there
> would of course only be the G in the bass.
> Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used
in
> this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass?
I don't think so - surely we all agreed about that. Strictly speaking
you were supposed to accompany yourself.
Monica
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style. Meanwhile - happy to say that I have come up with the perfect solution for me at least. On F you play iib7 On G you play V7/4 i.e. the F and the C in the voice part are the the dominant 7th combined with the suspended 4th. Both the 7th and the 4th are prepared in the previous chord and resolve correctly at the cadence. Not being a continuo player these solutions are not immediatly obvious to me and whether the resulting harmony is 20th century or 17th century I don't know but this way you also retain the hemiola effect in the accomapniment. O happy day - the sun is shining. Rgds Monica >> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later >> added. I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out of the blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well defined alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some of the songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that rather than just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the voice part whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit well defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to the melodies with their bass lines. >> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part >> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and >> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It >> also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth >> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes >> attempted. It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make sense. The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs frequently in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the guitar part - because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an instance where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think they should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass when the melody has f-c. > > Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while > with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty. The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and harmony is. It has nothing to do with the alfabeto. Regards Monica > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica,
Oh dear
In Marini, why should not the bass line instrument (theorbo, bowed
bass) just play the bass line of the song since the guitar isn't
producing a bass line (and it's occasionaly of interest)
rgds
M
.
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 14:57
> I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar
> would be doing an F major at the same moment.
If we are still talking about Marini surely the theorbo and guitar are
not meant to be playing together. It's either or - or have I lost the
plot completely? Are you not confusing Grenerin with alfabeto songs.
Different repertoire etc.
With a bowed string there
> would of course only be the G in the bass.
> Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used
in
> this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass?
I don't think so - surely we all agreed about that. Strictly speaking
you were supposed to accompany yourself.
Monica
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica,
It is tha bane of these sort of online exchanges that things said in
passing earlier are overlooked subsequently (Mea culpa too). So I
already excluded chord sequences like ground basses/harmonic
patterns and the like from what I was discussing - sorry if it wasn't
as clear as it ought to have been.
I accept totally and agree with what you say about much typesetting,
But this source seems reasobly free from errors (have you spotted any -
other than this under discussion) and I'm simply uneasy about
'rationalising' harmonies and justifying them on the basis that this is
what the early typesetters really meant.
I also think Dalza's harmony is rather less unexpected than Marini's
and gis contemporaries.
rgds
Martyn
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Martyn Hodgson"
Cc: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 14:40
Dear Martyn
> No real disagreement with what you say in the first part of your
> mailing below since we've secured general agreement that no one
> believes the melodies were created from the alfabeto chord
sequences.
Sorry - but I think you have misunderstood some of what I am
saying. Some of the
songs are based on existing harmonic patterns. For example in Dean's
dissertation look at the following
17. Falconieri - O vezzosetta (on p.355/discussed on p.173) This is
based
on the chord sequence of the Ciacona.
19. Falconieri - Cara e la rosa (on p.357/discussed on p.164). This is
based on a clearly defined harmonic progession.
Clearly the melody was not written first in instances like this.This
doesn't however prove that they were written originally for guitar
accompanment.
>
> Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are
> imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style.
I don't think it is retropspective modern judgement to question
received
wisdom - and as David has pointed out being an academic musicologist
is not
necessarily a recommendation. I don't know if you read Martin
Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated
clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed
book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in
a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts
don't know very much about how music was printed etc... Marini may
have intended the piece to be played in the way you think - I am happy
to keep an open mind on that.But have you any idea how complex an
operation typesetting a book like that really is? Anyone who thinks
that these sources are 100% accurate is being unrealistic.
As ever
Monica
--
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[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. If we are still talking about Marini surely the theorbo and guitar are not meant to be playing together. It's either or - or have I lost the plot completely? Are you not confusing Grenerin with alfabeto songs. Different repertoire etc. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? I don't think so - surely we all agreed about that. Strictly speaking you were supposed to accompany yourself. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn No real disagreement with what you say in the first part of your mailing below since we've secured general agreement that no one believes the melodies were created from the alfabeto chord sequences. Sorry - but I think you have misunderstood some of what I am saying. Some of the songs are based on existing harmonic patterns. For example in Dean's dissertation look at the following 17. Falconieri - O vezzosetta (on p.355/discussed on p.173) This is based on the chord sequence of the Ciacona. 19. Falconieri - Cara e la rosa (on p.357/discussed on p.164). This is based on a clearly defined harmonic progession. Clearly the melody was not written first in instances like this.This doesn't however prove that they were written originally for guitar accompanment. Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style. I don't think it is retropspective modern judgement to question received wisdom - and as David has pointed out being an academic musicologist is not necessarily a recommendation. I don't know if you read Martin Shepherd's article about Dalza in Lute News 89 but he has demonstrated clearly that there are a lot of misprints in the relevant printed book. It is not enough to play any old nonsense because it appears in a 500 year old source. In my experience a lot of so-called experts don't know very much about how music was printed etc... Marini may have intended the piece to be played in the way you think - I am happy to keep an open mind on that.But have you any idea how complex an operation typesetting a book like that really is? Anyone who thinks that these sources are 100% accurate is being unrealistic. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex, See Boyes list for sources naming, guitar, lute, theorbo on title page. But, of course, this is self-selective so excludes sources not naming these instruments ie bowed and/or keyboard. Certainly bowed basses were used in purely instrumental works by Marini and his contemporaries - which may account for lack of figuring in the 1622 ritornelli. As I asked earlier: does this imply no chordal accompaniment in these (just a single line bass)? Incidentally, I'm not suggesting bowed bass for the songs if the theorbo is present - only if the guitar is used without the theorbo. And if the guitar and theorbo were both present then the theorbo need only play the bass line - a mode which is documented. Indeed to avoid too much plucking I would certainly favour a single line plucked bass if the guitar was present - thus there need be no clash of harmonies as you fear. But even if the theorbo player wished to add chords they would see the vocal (and alfabeto line) line and adjust accordingly ( in practice simply carry over preceding 65 over the g in the bass) to avoid the chordal clash you fear. rgds M --- On Mon, 25/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: "Vihuela Dmth" , "Martyn Hodgson" Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 12:47 > On the face of it chitarrone/theorbo might seem appropriate for M's > songs (since, of course, it is mentioned on the title page either with > guitar or as the [preferred?] alternative) I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? > - but I find the more > substantial difference in tonal characteristics between a plucked and > bowed bass allows the guitar to be heard better in such an ensemble and > a seperation of the two parts to be readily distinguished (but was this > what was wanted?). Rather similar in fact to the popular pairing of > the theorbo with (chamber)organ rather than with the plucked > harpsichord. best wishes, Lex -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
On the face of it chitarrone/theorbo might seem appropriate for M's songs (since, of course, it is mentioned on the title page either with guitar or as the [preferred?] alternative) I was thinking of the theorbo playing a harmony on G while the guitar would be doing an F major at the same moment. With a bowed string there would of course only be the G in the bass. Do we have indications that bowed string bass instruments were used in this repertoire, in combination with plucked (or strummed) bass? - but I find the more substantial difference in tonal characteristics between a plucked and bowed bass allows the guitar to be heard better in such an ensemble and a seperation of the two parts to be readily distinguished (but was this what was wanted?). Rather similar in fact to the popular pairing of the theorbo with (chamber)organ rather than with the plucked harpsichord. best wishes, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex,
Well - this is moving on from how M (and others) approached to job of
creating light songs and I really have no firm view either way; tho' we
certainly know all sorts of arrangements were employed at the time.
On the face of it chitarrone/theorbo might seem appropriate for M's
songs (since, of course, it is mentioned on the title page either with
guitar or as the [preferred?] alternative) - but I find the more
substantial difference in tonal characteristics between a plucked and
bowed bass allows the guitar to be heard better in such an ensemble and
a seperation of the two parts to be readily distinguished (but was this
what was wanted?). Rather similar in fact to the popular pairing of
the theorbo with (chamber)organ rather than with the plucked
harpsichord.
However note that Pittoni allows both organ with theorbo in his Church
sonatas and harpsichord with theorbo in his Chamber sonatas. And also
note that in the ritornelli to M's songs the only accompaniment to the
violin is given as the chitarrone...(tho' as Monica points out, not
necessarily a procrustean requirement). But in performance and in lieu
of another plucker I'm certainly not going to put the guitar down and
pick up the theorbo inbetween each song verse.
rgds
M
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Vihuela Dmth" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 9:24
> When you've time and the personnel to hand (mezzo and a bowed bass)
> might I suggest you try the piece exactly as written.
I thought you were suggesting voice, guitar and theorbo.
Do you think the combination of guitar and bowed bass would be a better
option in this repertoire?
best, Lex
--
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[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Ha ha - very Good!
To be fair it wasn't really a recommendation of interpretative powers
(tho' I hasten to say they are both excellent) but rather of an ability
to pick up 'mistakes' in the part writing to which a contemporary
auditor might object
M.
--- On Mon, 25/4/11, David van Ooijen wrote:
From: David van Ooijen
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Vihuelalist"
Date: Monday, 25 April, 2011, 9:07
> player in an established ensemble (both incidentally also academic
> musicologists!)
And this is supposed to be a recommendation ... ?
;-)
David - sorry, couldn't resist
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References
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[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
When you've time and the personnel to hand (mezzo and a bowed bass) might I suggest you try the piece exactly as written. I thought you were suggesting voice, guitar and theorbo. Do you think the combination of guitar and bowed bass would be a better option in this repertoire? best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
> player in an established ensemble (both incidentally also academic > musicologists!) And this is supposed to be a recommendation ... ? ;-) David - sorry, couldn't resist To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica,
No real disagreement with what you say in the first part of your
mailing below since we've secured general agreement that no one
believes the melodies were created from the alfabeto chord sequences.
Re the second half of M's Il Verno - I think you're wrong and are
imposing a retrospective modern judgement on an earlier style (See Da
Gagliano for examples of these passing dissonances). I've just now
responded in detail to yr queries re this so you'll see better where I
stand if you read these.
But, on this lovely Spring day (again!), regards to you
Martyn
--- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 21:11
Dear Both of You
A couple of points
>> Your response seemed, to me, to say that you did indeed think that
an
>> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were
later
>> added.
I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out of
the
blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well defined
alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some of
the
songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that rather
than
just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the voice
part
whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit well
defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to the
melodies with their bass lines.
>> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper
part
>> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and
>> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et
al. It
>> also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to
smooth
>> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers
sometimes
>> attempted.
It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make
sense.
The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs
frequently
in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the
guitar part -
because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an
instance
where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think they
should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass when
the melody
has f-c.
>
> Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide,
while
> with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty.
The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and harmony
is.
It has nothing to do with the alfabeto.
Regards
Monica
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex,
Yes - I guess we are in general agreement abnout the process of
creation of these light songs - good!
Re the closing bars of Il Verno: as you'll see from my response to
Monica (also you'll note seconding your own position) I will stick to
what the printed page reveals especially when it has such a fine effect
in performance. Also note the clear position of the G (Fmaj) and .A.A
(G43) cadence above the staff notation - of course this might be
wrongly aligned (tho interestingly the alfabeto looks pretty well
aligned throughout this collection) but the alfabeto alignment
coincides with the literal position of the staff notation. In short,
with the two notations in agreement and anticipatory notes a feature of
instrumental music in the period we should to stick with the literal
reading. Please, let's not become old-fashioned (ie mid 20th century)
editors of such works and impose our retrospective judgements
automatically.
When you've time and the personnel to hand (mezzo and a bowed bass)
might I suggest you try the piece exactly as written.
regards
Martyn
--- On Sun, 24/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Vihuela Dmth" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 16:36
Dear Martyn,
thanks for your patience
> Your response seemed, to me, to say that you did indeed think that
an
> alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later
> added. If I now understand you, yopu do not think this was the case
and
> agree with me that in these light airs the tune would have
generally
> come first to which harmony was later added.
We seem to almost agree. I suppose that composition is more of a
gradual process, with mutual influence of melody and harmony.
> Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper
part
> is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and
> instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al.
It
> also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to
smooth
> out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers
sometimes
> attempted
Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while
with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty
best, Lex
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[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
We'll have to simply disagree here. Whjilst havinmg no further historical evidence either way, all I can say is that actual performance practice with a mezzo and bass viol player in an established ensemble (both incidentally also academic musicologists!) did not meet with anything other than complete acceptance of this nice anticipatory bass line. regards Martyn --- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 16:28 Dear Martyn > Yes I'm pretty sure it's NOT a mistake but is just a not untypical (of > the period style) passing dissonance - please let us not try and iron > out all these in a Victorian manner - the hemiola is really in the > upper vocal line. I knew this would set the cat amongst the pigeons but I still think that the bass could be misprinted. Easy to get the semibreve and minim in the wrong order. How can you be sure that it is a characteristic dissonance and not an error? This is our dilemma. With the bass line adjusted it is a straightforward cadential progression iib7 V4-3 I. Why should the bass part anticipate the cadence? The parts are not aligned correctly anyway. Either way I don't think it indicates that the guitar part was written before the bass part. Monica > --- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th > century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin > To: "Lex Eisenhardt" <[3]eisenha...@planet.nl> > Cc: "Vihuelalist" <[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu>, "Martyn Hodgson" > <[5]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 13:28 > > > Are you sure? The rhythm of the bass is not hemiolic, and the F major > > harmony (or rather D minor, as you remarked earlier) is implied for > one > > beat only. The F major is somewhat ambiguous indeed, with the melody > note > > d'. > May be I missed something here - but I did a quick transcription. Are > sure > the bass line is not misprinted? Because as written you have G in the > bass > with f-c in the voice part. I think the F in the bass should be > repeated > perhaps with the harmony changing; the G in the should be a minim > co-inciding > with the c - b natural in the voice part. The hemiola is in effect > present > in the bass part and the guitar and bass part match up. Otherwise you > get a very odd clash between the voice part and the bass part. > I can put it on my ning page if anyone wants to look at it. > It's interesting that in the guitar part the 4-3 suspension is in > the bass (with bordons). A lot would depend on how you strummed the > chords - you would > at least repeat them in time to the voice part. > Monica > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > > References > > 1. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl 4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Both of You A couple of points Your response seemed, to me, to say that you did indeed think that an alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. I think the point is not that alfabeto sequences were created out of the blue and then melodies added to them. Rather existing well defined alfabeto sequences with their basses were used as the basis of some of the songs. The other point which Dean tries to illustrate is that rather than just adding alfabeto chords to the bass line regardless of the voice part whoever provided the alfabeto has tried with some success to fit well defined sequences of alfabeto chords - particularly I IV I to the melodies with their bass lines. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted. It is not so much the hemiola - the harmony implied does not make sense. The sequence iib7 V4-3 I is absolutely standard and occurs frequently in Marini. When it does he treats it as a 4-3 suspension in the guitar part - because iib7 is not an option on the guitar. Can you give me an instance where the two harmonies are superimposed in the way that you think they should be here. What notes would you add to the g in the bass when the melody has f-c. Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty. The difficulty is determining what the correct bass note and harmony is. It has nothing to do with the alfabeto. Regards Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn, thanks for your patience Your response seemed, to me, to say that you did indeed think that an alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. If I now understand you, yopu do not think this was the case and agree with me that in these light airs the tune would have generally come first to which harmony was later added. We seem to almost agree. I suppose that composition is more of a gradual process, with mutual influence of melody and harmony. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted Indeed not. But with voice + alfabeto the hemiola would coincide, while with voice + alfabeto + bass I see more difficulty best, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn
Yes I'm pretty sure it's NOT a mistake but is just a not untypical (of
the period style) passing dissonance - please let us not try and iron
out all these in a Victorian manner - the hemiola is really in the
upper vocal line.
I knew this would set the cat amongst the pigeons but I still think that the
bass could be misprinted. Easy to get the semibreve and minim in the wrong
order. How can you be sure that it is a characteristic dissonance and not
an error? This is our dilemma.
With the bass line adjusted it is a straightforward
cadential progression iib7 V4-3 I. Why should the bass part
anticipate the cadence? The parts are not aligned correctly anyway.
Either way I don't think it indicates that the guitar part was written
before the bass part.
Monica
--- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 13:28
> Are you sure? The rhythm of the bass is not hemiolic, and the F major
> harmony (or rather D minor, as you remarked earlier) is implied for
one
> beat only. The F major is somewhat ambiguous indeed, with the melody
note
> d'.
May be I missed something here - but I did a quick transcription. Are
sure
the bass line is not misprinted? Because as written you have G in the
bass
with f-c in the voice part. I think the F in the bass should be
repeated
perhaps with the harmony changing; the G in the should be a minim
co-inciding
with the c - b natural in the voice part. The hemiola is in effect
present
in the bass part and the guitar and bass part match up. Otherwise you
get a very odd clash between the voice part and the bass part.
I can put it on my ning page if anyone wants to look at it.
It's interesting that in the guitar part the 4-3 suspension is in
the bass (with bordons). A lot would depend on how you strummed the
chords - you would
at least repeat them in time to the voice part.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex, I merely tried to secure the nub of what you (and/or Dean) was saying which is why I earlier tried to obtain an unequivocal statement by saying to you I can't agree - I think the thesis that they fitted tunes to alfabeto rather than the other way round is, if I may say, rather putting the cart before the horse. Your response seemed, to me, to say that you did indeed think that an alfabeto asequence was created to which tunes (and bass) were later added. If I now understand you, yopu do not think this was the case and agree with me that in these light airs the tune would have generally come first to which harmony was later added. Rehgarding Il Verno - yes I am sure. A hemiola in just the upper part is by no means unkown in the Italian repertoire (vocal and instrumental) of the period. Look at Bounamente, Falconierio et al. It also works very well in practice. We should not always aim to smooth out these passing things as the 19th/20th century arrangers sometimes attempted rgds Martyn --- On Sun, 24/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: "Vihuela Dmth" , "Martyn Hodgson" Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 10:55 Dear Martyn, I feel the confusion was mainly caused by what you assumed me to say, and not by my actual assertions. And probably my poor English has mislead you. I referred to Dean's thesis, in which there are comparable ideas, because I understood you had read it. > 1. I'm very pleased you now make it clear that ' I never suggested (or > meant to suggest) that that (first chords then the melody) was the way > these songs were normally composed.' .However I must say that this > position is far from clear from what you wrote earlier and it would > have saved us both a deal of time if you've have said this earlier. Even if you don't agree with it, I still think my ideas were formulated reasonably clear: > [Again you] Another scenario would be that the composer finds good > harmonies to > melodic fragments. The harmony implies a bass (or is implied by a > bass). There are different possible harmonizations/ bass lines, from > which the composer makes his choice. Step by step the whole melody and > harmony are shaped, altered, and > the bass or/and the melody will be adapted until the perfect shape of > the > composition is found. > The f ' > and c' of the melody would not work well, together with all the c's in > the G major (4-3) of the guitar. However, if we play the alfabeto > chords exactly where they are placed at the melody a beautiful > pre-cadential hemiola comes to light. C minor - F major - G 4-#3 - C > major. Perhaps even better than the basso continuo.' > Any reasonably competant continuo player would immediately spot this as > a hemiola. and the 65 chord.. Are you sure? The rhythm of the bass is not hemiolic, and the F major harmony (or rather D minor, as you remarked earlier) is implied for one beat only. The F major is somewhat ambiguous indeed, with the melody note d'. It can be argued here that alfabeto was always 'licentious' with regard to counterpoint. I would say that the placement of the alfabeto implies two (not one) beats F (IV) two beats V (4-3). Only if bass and alfabeto would be performed together there would be a clash of which we don't really know if it would be intentional. When we would play a D minor chord (for one beat) at the bass note F there would be no hemiola. best wishes, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Monica,
Yes I'm pretty sure it's NOT a mistake but is just a not untypical (of
the period style) passing dissonance - please let us not try and iron
out all these in a Victorian manner - the hemiola is really in the
upper vocal line.
rgds
M
--- On Sun, 24/4/11, Monica Hall wrote:
From: Monica Hall
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Lex Eisenhardt"
Cc: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Sunday, 24 April, 2011, 13:28
> Are you sure? The rhythm of the bass is not hemiolic, and the F major
> harmony (or rather D minor, as you remarked earlier) is implied for
one
> beat only. The F major is somewhat ambiguous indeed, with the melody
note
> d'.
May be I missed something here - but I did a quick transcription. Are
sure
the bass line is not misprinted? Because as written you have G in the
bass
with f-c in the voice part. I think the F in the bass should be
repeated
perhaps with the harmony changing; the G in the should be a minim
co-inciding
with the c - b natural in the voice part. The hemiola is in effect
present
in the bass part and the guitar and bass part match up. Otherwise you
get a very odd clash between the voice part and the bass part.
I can put it on my ning page if anyone wants to look at it.
It's interesting that in the guitar part the 4-3 suspension is in
the bass (with bordons). A lot would depend on how you strummed the
chords - you would
at least repeat them in time to the voice part.
Monica
To get on or off this list see list information at
[1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Are you sure? The rhythm of the bass is not hemiolic, and the F major harmony (or rather D minor, as you remarked earlier) is implied for one beat only. The F major is somewhat ambiguous indeed, with the melody note d'. May be I missed something here - but I did a quick transcription. Are sure the bass line is not misprinted? Because as written you have G in the bass with f-c in the voice part. I think the F in the bass should be repeated perhaps with the harmony changing; the G in the should be a minim co-inciding with the c - b natural in the voice part. The hemiola is in effect present in the bass part and the guitar and bass part match up. Otherwise you get a very odd clash between the voice part and the bass part. I can put it on my ning page if anyone wants to look at it. It's interesting that in the guitar part the 4-3 suspension is in the bass (with bordons). A lot would depend on how you strummed the chords - you would at least repeat them in time to the voice part. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn, I feel the confusion was mainly caused by what you assumed me to say, and not by my actual assertions. And probably my poor English has mislead you. I referred to Dean's thesis, in which there are comparable ideas, because I understood you had read it. 1. I'm very pleased you now make it clear that ' I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that that (first chords then the melody) was the way these songs were normally composed.' .However I must say that this position is far from clear from what you wrote earlier and it would have saved us both a deal of time if you've have said this earlier. Even if you don't agree with it, I still think my ideas were formulated reasonably clear: [Again you] Another scenario would be that the composer finds good harmonies to melodic fragments. The harmony implies a bass (or is implied by a bass). There are different possible harmonizations/ bass lines, from which the composer makes his choice. Step by step the whole melody and harmony are shaped, altered, and the bass or/and the melody will be adapted until the perfect shape of the composition is found. The f ' and c' of the melody would not work well, together with all the c's in the G major (4-3) of the guitar. However, if we play the alfabeto chords exactly where they are placed at the melody a beautiful pre-cadential hemiola comes to light. C minor - F major - G 4-#3 - C major. Perhaps even better than the basso continuo.' Any reasonably competant continuo player would immediately spot this as a hemiola. and the 65 chord.. Are you sure? The rhythm of the bass is not hemiolic, and the F major harmony (or rather D minor, as you remarked earlier) is implied for one beat only. The F major is somewhat ambiguous indeed, with the melody note d'. It can be argued here that alfabeto was always 'licentious' with regard to counterpoint. I would say that the placement of the alfabeto implies two (not one) beats F (IV) two beats V (4-3). Only if bass and alfabeto would be performed together there would be a clash of which we don't really know if it would be intentional. When we would play a D minor chord (for one beat) at the bass note F there would be no hemiola. best wishes, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Lex,
Thank you for this.
1. I'm very pleased you now make it clear that ' I never suggested (or
meant to suggest) that that (first chords then the melody) was the way
these songs were normally composed.' .However I must say that this
position is far from clear from what you wrote earlier and it would
have saved us both a deal of time if you've have said this earlier. A
few statements extracted from yr earlier mails are given below (I've
not the time or inclination to wade through them for all such
references but these give a flavour):
[ ME If I understand aright you suggest that the requirements of
fixed
alfabeto chords frequently (usually?) dictated the harmonies Marini
and
Co felt able to write. I can't agree - I think the thesis that they
fitted tunes to alfabeto rather than the other way round is, if I
may
say, rather putting the cart before the horse. ]
[ Yr response to this] That may seem so from the perspective of a
theorbo player. But not for the merry strummer. Many of these newly
composed songs (not always with Marini though) have rather simple bass
lines; they are (often) the simpler kind of pastoral songs.
[Again you] Another scenario would be that the composer finds good
harmonies to
melodic fragments. The harmony implies a bass (or is implied by a
bass). There are different possible harmonizations/ bass lines, from
which the composer makes his choice. Step by step the whole melody and
harmony are shaped, altered, and
the bass or/and the melody will be adapted until the perfect shape of
the
composition is found.
2. You write in reply to my previous giving an example indicating that
the alfabeto was added AFTER the tune and bass were conposed: 'The bass
and alfabeto go indeed not very well together in this example. The f '
and c' of the melody would not work well, together with all the c's in
the G major (4-3) of the guitar. However, if we play the alfabeto
chords exactly where they are placed at the melody a beautiful
pre-cadential hemiola comes to light. C minor - F major - G 4-#3 - C
major. Perhaps even better than the basso continuo.'
Any reasonably competant continuo player would immediately spot this as
a hemiola. and the 65 chord..
rgds
Martyn
--- On Sat, 23/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote:
From: Lex Eisenhardt
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th
century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
To: "Vihuela Dmth" , "Martyn Hodgson"
Date: Saturday, 23 April, 2011, 21:01
Dear Martyn,
I think I should clarify a few things
> 1. Where did I, or others, suggest that implied in your questions
ie '-
> Should we assume that all these guitar enthusiasts were only
> singing/accompanying alfabeto arrangements
> of pre-existing continuo songs? Are you suggesting that all newly
> composed songs with alfabeto are arranged to the guitar?
> Answer - NO! But this raises yet more queries over your
speculation: -
> who are these composing guitar enthusiasts?; - songs can be created
> without being a continuo player. It is the process you suggest
which is
> that I doubt was the principal one for composition ie creating a
series
> of chords and then inventing a tune to go with them - I think the
> reverse is more likely (tune first then chords); thus also not
> specifically limiting the creation of such songs to guitar
enthusiasts
> alone!.
I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that that (first chords then
the melody) was the way these songs were normally composed.
On the other hand I would say that it seems too optimistic to suppose
that a complete melody was created first, and next a bass was made etc.
Composers can make use of different strategies/techniques, even within
one composition and at the same time. A composer trained in church
music, as were a number of those who published light canzonette, could
at the same time be a guitar enthusiast. I assume it would be possible
to think (popular) alfabeto and (scholarly) counterpoint at about the
same moment, and probably some were able to freely cross from the one
world to the other.
The question is, did the 'guitar style' of that moment influence the
composition to the extent that bass lines were simplified, passing
tones were omitted, and the kind of practical, playable chord
progressions found in the alfabeto dance sources were used, etc. (see
Dean).
What seems more convincing in his thesis is the idea that the harmony
in the solo villanella/scherzo genre was to a certain extent driven by
the wish to create an acceptable guitar accompaniment.
> B
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
Dear Martyn, I think I should clarify a few things 1. Where did I, or others, suggest that implied in your questions ie '- Should we assume that all these guitar enthusiasts were only singing/accompanying alfabeto arrangements of pre-existing continuo songs? Are you suggesting that all newly composed songs with alfabeto are arranged to the guitar? Answer - NO! But this raises yet more queries over your speculation: - who are these composing guitar enthusiasts?; - songs can be created without being a continuo player. It is the process you suggest which is that I doubt was the principal one for composition ie creating a series of chords and then inventing a tune to go with them - I think the reverse is more likely (tune first then chords); thus also not specifically limiting the creation of such songs to guitar enthusiasts alone!. I never suggested (or meant to suggest) that that (first chords then the melody) was the way these songs were normally composed. On the other hand I would say that it seems too optimistic to suppose that a complete melody was created first, and next a bass was made etc. Composers can make use of different strategies/techniques, even within one composition and at the same time. A composer trained in church music, as were a number of those who published light canzonette, could at the same time be a guitar enthusiast. I assume it would be possible to think (popular) alfabeto and (scholarly) counterpoint at about the same moment, and probably some were able to freely cross from the one world to the other. The question is, did the 'guitar style' of that moment influence the composition to the extent that bass lines were simplified, passing tones were omitted, and the kind of practical, playable chord progressions found in the alfabeto dance sources were used, etc. (see Dean). But finally, as a possible way forward out of this speculative quagmire, might I turn your thoughts to the actual music of M's 1622 collection: there are numerousexamples where the tune and bass does not quite fit the alfabeto harmony which suggests the pieces (the tunes and the bass) were not compsed from the alfabeto chords but that a guitarist strummed through later adding such alfabeto as fitted best in his/her view. One example amongst very many: look at page 26 Il Verno, the end of the first verse with the phrase starting 'delle piante' Note that against the alfabeto chord G (ie F major) the tune has a d' (the bass an f) so if composing this on a pre-existing chord sequence why didn't he write alfabeto E (ie chord of Dm)? Even more, in the following bar the bass rises to a g against the still held Fmajor chord - this again clearly suggests chords added to the existing treble (and bass). The bass and alfabeto go indeed not very well together in this example. The f ' and c' of the melody would not work well, together with all the c's in the G major (4-3) of the guitar. However, if we play the alfabeto chords exactly where they are placed at the melody a beautiful pre-cadential hemiola comes to light. C minor - F major - G 4-#3 - C major. Perhaps even better than the basso continuo. best wishes, Lex To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin
From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Composition of short songs in early 17th century Italy - was Marini - was Grenerin To: "Lex Eisenhardt" Date: Saturday, 23 April, 2011, 9:57 Thank you for this Lex, I think we are both getting into the realms of idle speculation, and even simple assertion not backed up by evidence, depending on our own particular general views. But I will try and respond to what you write below: 1. Where did I, or others, suggest that implied in your questions ie '- Should we assume that all these guitar enthusiasts were only singing/accompanying alfabeto arrangements of pre-existing continuo songs? Are you suggesting that all newly composed songs with alfabeto are arranged to the guitar? Answer - NO! But this raises yet more queries over your speculation: - who are these composing guitar enthusiasts?; - songs can be created without being a continuo player. It is the process you suggest which is that I doubt was the principal one for composition ie creating a series of chords and then inventing a tune to go with them - I think the reverse is more likely (tune first then chords); thus also not specifically limiting the creation of such songs to guitar enthusiasts alone!. 2. You write ' To begin with the dry statistics: - there were hundreds--if not thousands--players of the guitar in Italy. Probably many more than players of the theorbo. - a large number of sources report of people singing to the guitar - there are hundreds--if not thousands--printed songs with alfabeto and basso continuo - only a small minority of these songs are known to be based on dances or ostinato patterns - so probably most songs with alfabeto were newly composed' I'm sorry to say, this is poor logic - the last line does not follow from the previous (even leaving aside the simple assertions which may, or may not, be true). But, in any event, it is irellevant to the present discussion which is: firstly that you believe Marini created his 1622 songs by adding a tune to a sequence of chords and secondly that this was general standard practice for composing such light songs - and I do not. Re the precise authorship of instructions: I can well believe that Marini's 1622 instructions could have been written by a guitarist brought in by the printer/publisher to add alfabeto; but this, of course, doesn't necessarily exclude M from being the author. However, again, this is irellevant, the nub of the issue is you think these songs were created by persons adding a tune to a chord sequence and I think the reverse. But, as said at the beginning, we are now getting firmly into the realms of speculation and personal assertion. But finally, as a possible way forward out of this speculative quagmire, might I turn your thoughts to the actual music of M's 1622 collection: there are numerousexamples where the tune and bass does not quite fit the alfabeto harmony which suggests the pieces (the tunes and the bass) were not compsed from the alfabeto chords but that a guitarist strummed through later adding such alfabeto as fitted best in his/her view. One example amongst very many: look at page 26 Il Verno, the end of the first verse with the phrase starting 'delle piante' Note that against the alfabeto chord G (ie F major) the tune has a d' (the bass an f) so if composing this on a pre-existing chord sequence why didn't he write alfabeto E (ie chord of Dm)? Even more, in the following bar the bass rises to a g against the still held Fmajor chord - this again clearly suggests chords added to the existing treble (and bass). Numerous similar examples throughout the collection. Of course in performance these passing dissonances are perfectly acceptable and so I don't suggest the alfabeto and lines are 'wrong' in such places but that it clearly indicates the process of composition with the tune first and chords after, rather than the converse as you would have it. But, to come full circle: all this is very largely mere speculation (if not downright assertion) and I think we've now both presented our views on the matter. rgds M --- On Fri, 22/4/11, Lex Eisenhardt wrote: From: Lex Eisenhardt Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Marini - was Grenerin To: "Vihuelalist" , "Martyn Hodgson" Date: Friday, 22 April, 2011, 9:52 I didn't mean to accuse anyone of being theorbocentric To begin with the dry statistics: - there were hundreds--if not thousands--players of the guitar in Italy. Probably many more than players of the theorbo. - a large number of sources report of people singing to the guitar - there are hundreds--if not thous
