[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
There are no illustrations of the guitarre theorbee. All that we know about it is that there are twelve short pieces in the Gallot ms. (GB:Ob Ms.Mus.Sch.C94) in French tablature. There are no instructions as to how the instrument was tuned or strung. You have to try and work this out from the music. No other source for the instrument has come to light so far as I know. Your suggestion that there may be structural advantages to displacing the 11th and 12th courses Is helpful. That is really what I am trying to work out. Regards Monica On 12 June 2019 at 18:42 Azalais wrote: Could there possibly be a structural, or a bridge (and bracing) and/or peg box spacing reason perhaps? Maybe a string oscillation clearance issue? (I haven't seen photos or images) azalais On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 11:12 AM Monica Hall < [1]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Unfortunately the source - the Gallot ms. - gives no information about the stringing or tuning or for that matter the pitch. Therein lies the problem. The method of stringing suggested in the article eliminates all the quirks in the music, in particular the skip of a 7th in the bass line which occurs frequently. You really need to read the article to understand the problem. I could send you a copy if you are interested. I would be interested to know what you think about the practicalities of it. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 15:35 Martyn Hodgson < [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this ( I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? > > Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or archlute.). > > Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . > > Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. > > Marty > > > On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall < [3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > > Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. âPamure 5â and is on your CD. > > The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. > In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. > > As ever > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop < [4]robmackil...@gmail.com mailto: [5]robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. But I don't know... > > > > Rob > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall < [6]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto: [7]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Unfortunately the source - the Gallot ms. - gives no information about the stringing or tuning or for that matter the pitch. Therein lies the problem. The method of stringing suggested in the article eliminates all the quirks in the music, in particular the skip of a 7th in the bass line which occurs frequently. You really need to read the article to understand the problem. I could send you a copy if you are interested. I would be interested to know what you think about the practicalities of it. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 15:35 Martyn Hodgson wrote: > > > Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower > octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this ( > I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? > > Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range > down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with > this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be > the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). > However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they > would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g > f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g > (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper > indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the > scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or > archlute.). > > Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open > strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . > > Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. > > Marty > > > On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall > wrote: > > > Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for > the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are > found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish > Lute Ms. âPamure 5â and is on your CD. > > The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. > In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to > confuse. > > As ever > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop < robmackil...@gmail.com > mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, > with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar > include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would > be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less > helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the > main action. But I don't know... > > > > Rob > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are > five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C > B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open > basses. > > > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which > would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses > on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th > courses in the upper octave. > > > > As ever. > > > > Monica > > > > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop < robmackil...@gmail.com > mailto:robmackil...@gmail.com > wrote: > > > > > >Monica, > > > > > >To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing > courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > > > >So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > describe appears to be: > > > > > >Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > > > >Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct > me if I'm wrong. > > > > > >Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > > > > > >On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto: > mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > > >?space?-- The latest issue of Early
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Why are the first five open (unstopped) basses thought to be at the lower octave? - is the source absolutely clear and wholly unambiguous about this (I've not yet seen the EM article myself)? Leaving aside the length of the long basses required to extend the range down to contrabass ,B and the quality of sound, a practical problem with this tuning (as you clearly set it out from the EM article) would seem to be the large gap below the third course (g) and the next stoppable course (c). However, if the first five unstopped basses were at the upper octave they would then continue directly scalewise downwards from the third course: ie g f e d c B. with the last two unstopped basses at the upper octave of a g (because of string technology limitations perhaps) as you/the paper indicates (or they could be an octave down thus simply extending the scalewise sequence down as on, say, a the contemporary theorbo or archlute.). Of course, with this arrangement the c and b would be duplicated as open strings, but the stopped pair would be fully chromatic . Or perhaps I've misunderstood .. Marty On Wednesday, 12 June 2019, 14:15:27 BST, Monica Hall wrote: Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. "Pamure 5" and is on your CD. The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop <[1]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. But I don't know... > > Rob > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall <[2]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in the upper octave. > > As ever. > > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop <[3]robmackil...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >Monica, > > > >To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > >So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you describe appears to be: > > > >Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > >Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if I'm wrong. > > > >Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > >On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < [4]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[5]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > >?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Well - the pieces in the Gallot Ms. - the only known source of music for the instrument - are all solo pieces and are in C major or C minor. Some are found in other arrangements in other sources - one of them is in Scottish Lute Ms. “Pamure 5” and is on your CD. The two lowest course seem to be used just as frequently as the others. In the ms. the courses are numbered a/ a// a/// 4 5 6 7 just to confuse. As ever Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 13:59 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > > I see. I imagine such an instrument was mainly used for accompaniment, with > some solos being composed as well. The main keys for a baroque guitar include > Dm, C, E, and F. Having the F diapason close to the fretboard would be useful > for the keys of F, C and Dm. Perhaps the notes a and g were less helpful for > accompaniment situations, so were shoved out of the way from the main action. > But I don't know... > > Rob > > On 12 June 2019, at 13:51, Monica Hall wrote: > > Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five > courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. > > From 1st course down the tuning is > > e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B > below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. > > There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. > > It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would > be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. > > What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. > > One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the > fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. > > The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in > the upper octave. > > As ever. > > Monica > > > > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > > > Monica, > > > > To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing > > courses: the first string is always the first course. > > > > So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > > describe appears to be: > > > > Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > > > Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if > > I'm wrong. > > > > Rob MacKillop > > > > > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > > > ?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on > > the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two >course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap >between the stopped courses and diapasons. > >Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where >there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? > >What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like >this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the >instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage >wherever they are positioned on the instrument. > >Food for thought. > >As ever > >Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > --
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Sorry if it is not clear. It is a twelve course instrument. There are five courses on the fingerboard and seven unstopped basses. >From 1st course down the tuning is e' c' g c B (1-5 on the fingerboard); unstopped courses are F E D C B,(B below the bass stave) a g; 6-12 unstopped. There is a gap between the courses on the fingerboard and the open basses. It is the arrangement of the unstopped courses on the instrument which would be unusual. The two thinnest strings are placed in the outside position. What puzzles me is what possible advantage might there be to this. One thing is certain - either the open basses overlap with the courses on the fingerboard or there is a gap between the 5th and 6th courses. The new arrangement fills in the gap by placing the 11th and 12th courses in the upper octave. As ever. Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 12:45 Rob MacKillop wrote: > > Monica, > > To save confusion, please use the standard method of describing courses: > the first string is always the first course. > > So, descending from 1st course down to 12th course the tuning you > describe appears to be: > > Fretted: e' c' g c B Unfretted: B C D E F a g > > Is that correct? If so, that is highly unusual, so please correct me if > I'm wrong. > > Rob MacKillop > > > > On Wed, 12 Jun 2019 at 12:07, Monica Hall < mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > mailto:mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu > wrote: > > ?space?-- The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the > guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
To clarify - the fifth unstopped course is an octave lower than the fifth course on the fingerboard. In Helmholtz notation the low b is shown as B, = i.e. upper case B with a comma after it - this isn't very clear in my message. It is not entirely unusual to have the two lowest courses a tone apart. I believe this is sometimes the case with the mandora and recently I discovered that there is late 18th century music for a 6-string guitar by Christian Gottlieb Scheidler with the 6th string a tone below the 5th i.e. G. Monica > On 12 June 2019 at 12:31 SW wrote: > > > Monica, this tuning seems very odd? Fifth course a semitone lower than fourth > course? Same note B on two courses (fifth course on fingerboard and fifth > unstopped course)? > > > > On 12 June 2019, at 12:08, Monica Hall wrote: > >The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre >theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different >from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - > >on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B > >1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, > >6th-7th unstopped courses - a g > >(nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) > >in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest >note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is >filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but >out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in >the strictest sense of the term. > >This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it >eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. > >I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two >course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap >between the stopped courses and diapasons. > >Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where >there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? > >What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like >this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the >instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage >wherever they are positioned on the instrument. > >Food for thought. > >As ever > >Monica > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Monica, this tuning seems very odd? Fifth course a semitone lower than fourth course? Same note B on two courses (fifth course on fingerboard and fifth unstopped course)? On 12 June 2019, at 12:08, Monica Hall wrote: The latest issue of Early Music has a short article on the guitarre theorbee suggesting an interesting tuning/stringing method different from the one suggested by Donald Gill and myself - to witt - on the fingerboard - e' c' g c B 1st - 5th unstopped courses - F E D C B, 6th-7th unstopped courses - a g (nominally in C major - there is a C minor alternative) in other words there is a gap of an augmented 4th between the lowest note on the fingerboard and the first unstopped course, but this is filled in by the 6th and 7th courses which are at the correct pitch but out of sequence physically on the instrument rather than re-entrant in the strictest sense of the term. This certainly produces a better realization of the music - it eliminates the skip of a 7th in the bass line. I know that the theorbo sometimes had the lowest course or lowest two course re-entrant but these are not out of sequence. There is no gap between the stopped courses and diapasons. Does anyone know of any examples of a theorbo or other instrument where there is a gap between the stopped courses and the diapasons? What are the advantages to having the diapasons out of sequence like this. Are there any practical advantages either when constructing the instrument or when playing it? The strings will be of the same guage wherever they are positioned on the instrument. Food for thought. As ever Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Stuart, Regarding wether the CA basses were doubled at the octave, the 1651 illustration of Granata's CA shows pegs for 5 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single (relatively short as compared with a theorbo) basses. In short, the instrument was strung like a theorbo and contemporary archlute with single basses. As you'll know from earlier in this thread, there is at least as strong a case for the basses to be at the upper octave and in this case no octave doubling would be present anyway. Martyn On Sun, 30/8/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Roman Turovsky lu...@polyhymnion.org Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 30 August, 2009, 4:55 PM Roman Turovsky wrote: There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar.. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means [1]http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT This image reminded me of something in Baines' Musical Instruments. There _is_ an instrument in the VA (according to Baines) that has the attachment that is shown in Roman's jpg. Perhaps it is the same instrument. But it is much, much later... 1789-92, Rafael Vellejo (VA; 389-1871): six double courses and a board attached with 20 pegs with 10 double courses of metal strings. Stuart --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
It is not the open basses which are doubled. But obviously (if anything is obvious) the courses on the fingerboard would be double. What we don't know for sure is whether the 4th and 5th were octave strung or in unison. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Stuart Walsh Cc: [3]Monica Hall ; [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Stuart, Regarding wether the CA basses were doubled at the octave, the 1651 illustration of Granata's CA shows pegs for 5 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single (relatively short as compared with a theorbo) basses. In short, the instrument was strung like a theorbo and contemporary archlute with single basses. As you'll know from earlier in this thread, there is at least as strong a case for the basses to be at the upper octave and in this case no octave doubling would be present anyway. Martyn On Sun, 30/8/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Roman Turovsky lu...@polyhymnion.org Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 30 August, 2009, 4:55 PM Roman Turovsky wrote: There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar.. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means [5]http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT This image reminded me of something in Baines' Musical Instruments. There _is_ an instrument in the VA (according to Baines) that has the attachment that is shown in Roman's jpg. Perhaps it is the same instrument. But it is much, much later... 1789-92, Rafael Vellejo (VA; 389-1871): six double courses and a board attached with 20 pegs with 10 double courses of metal strings. Stuart --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 To get on or off this list see list information at [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Oh - well - it is a bank holiday!We should be out enjoying the sun while it lasts. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Monica Hall Cc: [3]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 5:34 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Ah - I was fooled by Stuart saying octave stringing on the lower courses - which I took as meaning the basses. M --- On Mon, 31/8/09, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Monday, 31 August, 2009, 4:24 PM It is not the open basses which are doubled. But obviously (if anything is obvious) the courses on the fingerboard would be double. What we don't know for sure is whether the 4th and 5th were octave strung or in unison. Monica - Original Message - From: [8]Martyn Hodgson To: [9]Stuart Walsh Cc: [10]Monica Hall ; [11]Vihuelalist Sent: Monday, August 31, 2009 1:40 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Stuart, Regarding wether the CA basses were doubled at the octave, the 1651 illustration of Granata's CA shows pegs for 5 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single (relatively short as compared with a theorbo) basses. In short, the instrument was strung like a theorbo and contemporary archlute with single basses. As you'll know from earlier in this thread, there is at least as strong a case for the basses to be at the upper octave and in this case no octave doubling would be present anyway. Martyn On Sun, 30/8/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Roman Turovsky lu...@polyhymnion.org Cc: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk, Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Sunday, 30 August, 2009, 4:55 PM Roman Turovsky wrote: There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar... James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means [12]http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT This image reminded me of something in Baines' Musical Instruments. There _is_ an instrument in the VA (according to Baines) that has the attachment that is shown in Roman's jpg. Perhaps it is the same instrument. But it is much, much later... 1789-92, Rafael Vellejo (VA; 389-1871): six double courses and a board attached with 20 pegs with 10 double courses of metal strings. Stuart --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2335 - Release Date: 08/30/09 06:36:00 To get on or off this list see list information at [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 6. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 7. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=s.wa...@ntlworld.com 10. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 12. http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg 13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Monica Hall wrote: Granata has not clearly indicated in any of his books that he favoured one method of stringing the 5-course guitar over another. It is therefore an open question. I see - I understand what you are saying. There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
There is just one further aspect which I haven't explored. Two books, one by Abatessa and one by Michaeli include instructions for tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta. It is not clear what this is except that it apparently has 8 strings. Abatessa seems to imply that it is another instrument - a small harp perhaps, but Micheli's instructions seem to imply that it is some sort of attachment to the guitar. James Tyler mentions this on p.59 of his book and says there is a drawing of such an instrument in an 18th century Portuguese manuscript where it is referred to as a tyorba christalina. Apparently there is such an instrument in the Victoria and Albert Museum. I don't recall having seen it. Has anyone else? Monica I've been in the VA a couple of times fairly recently and I didn't notice such a thing. Maybe someone has the VA catalogue and can check that for instruments not on display. Could - tuning the 5-course guitar to the arpetta - just mean tuning a guitar with the help of an arpetta (whatever that was). Stuart Unless this means http://www.torban.org/images/vallejo2.jpg RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower octave (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that struck first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so that with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would make perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an ambiguous aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper octave. I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a continuo bass lines as for a theorbo or similar. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop the files. No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant. In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th at the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low octave string. I must get the correct version sorted.. Monica - Original Message - From: [2]Martyn Hodgson To: [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [5]Martyn Hodgson To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music and for this reason I am inclined to be cautious. We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the instrument were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but not the 5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this from the music. Each method of stringing creates problems. Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a player and an arranger of music for the instrument. One thing that I would query. If the basses are high they overlap completely with the courses on the fingerboard. Surely this would mean that they didn't need to be any longer than the stopped courses? Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not capable of doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower octave (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that struck first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so that with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would make perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an ambiguous aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper octave. I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a continuo bass lines as for a theorbo or similar. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop the files. No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant. In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th at the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low octave string. I must get the correct version sorted.. Monica - Original Message - From: [2]Martyn Hodgson To: [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [5]Martyn Hodgson To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) - Granata exploits this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113. I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course 'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of course, to do with different sonorities and other playing possibilities. Many similar examples are possible... As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your position as well Martyn --- On Sat, 29/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 29 August, 2009, 12:19 PM Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music and for this reason I am inclined to be cautious. We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the instrument were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but not the 5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this from the music. Each method of stringing creates problems. Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a player and an arranger of music for the instrument. One thing that I would query. If the basses are high they overlap completely with the courses on the fingerboard. Surely this would mean that they didn't need to be any longer than the stopped courses? Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not capable of doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co..uk Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:42 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Presumably even if one string of the 5th course was at the lower octave (and I don't think we know that - do we?) the other (and that struck first by the thumb - as the lower basses) would be at the upper so that with basses at the upper octave the opening of the Preludio would make perfect sense and with the chord in bar two being led by an ambiguous aA. Of course if both of the 5th at the upper octave it forces a conclusion that the basses leading up to it are also at the uipper octave. I also think we need to think more of idiomatic guitar writing (something we have both discussed and agreed) rather than a continuo bass lines as for a theorbo or similar. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 5:45 PM Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well - I would like to agree with you wholeheartedly. The reason why I have been pursuing this is because there is this simplistic argument - first put forward by Gary Boye and seized on with alacrity by at least one other person - that because Granata has included these pieces for an instrument which they believe had an extended bass range Granata intended all his guitar music to be played with octave stringing on both the fourth and fifth courses. At one point one point one person seemed about to claim that because the Gallot ms. includes music for guitarre theorbe all the music in that source was intended for double octave stringing too. To me this is totally illogical - and I think that Gary has had second thoughts himself on this. However these instruments were strung they are different instruments and have nothing whatever to do with the 5-course guitar. This is the point which I am most anxious to make. Unfortunately, because ideas like this appear in books supposedly of scholarly status everyone repeats them parrot fashion. The same is true of Bartolotti and his lettere tagliate. It is as if the Pope had spoken ex-cathedra. Having said that I am cautious (I hope) about suggesting that Granata's instrument is just some weirdo instrument of his own because I don't want to be accused of putting forward counter arguments which aren't well supported. In suggesting that Granata's instrument was tuned to a higher pitch than the 5-course I hoped I had achieved a procrustean balence. But perhaps not. Moica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 1:00 PM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata I think the point is this: my speculation (and this is all it is - as is the low tuning) that Granata's basses were at the higher octave (like Gallot's) is that the instrument shouldn't be automatically thought of as a sort of archlute or theorbo playing BC and thus requiring a full range of normally occuring bass notes but that it was (like the re-entrant guitar itself I suppose) a sort of special effect instrument. Upper octave basses gives the basses the same level of brightness as an upper octave (part or full) 5th course; it allows basses to ring; and (as with much 18th century lute writing) it frees the left hand to exploit the higher reaches of the fingerboard whilst still providing a bass (allbeit in a high register) - Granata exploits this possibility in a few places such as 1659 pages 111, 113. I think the thought that since all the notes are available on an ordinary 5 course guitar (provided of course the 5th course has at least one lower octave string) then why have another instrument is similar to suggesting that since all the notes of an 11 course 'baroque' lute in, say, the Dm tuning can be played on a 10 course lute in the old tuning, why bother having such an instrument? It is, of course, to do with different sonorities and other playing possibilities. Many similar examples are possible... As I've said before Monica, to be quite frank I simply don't know, but I do think there's at least as good a case for high basses as low in Granata's music for this instrument even without considering the sort of sound from a gut low ,A of short string length and I think we need to face such choices. From what you say I think this is largely your position as well Martyn --- On Sat, 29/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 29 August, 2009, 12:19 PM Well - there are a whole range of unknown factors with Granata's music and for this reason I am inclined to be cautious. We don't know for certain whether the 4th and 5th courses on the instrument were octave strung - or whether the 4th course was octave strung but not the 5th or even if they were re-entrant and it is not easy to judge this from the music. Each method of stringing creates problems. Also we need to be able to judge how competant Granata was both as a player and an arranger of music for the instrument. One thing that I would query. If the basses are high they overlap completely with the courses on the fingerboard. Surely this would mean that they didn't need to be any longer than the stopped courses? Also it seems a bit pointless to have an instrument which is not capable of doing anything which you can't do on an ordinary guitar. Monica - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co..uk Cc
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Oleg is a great scholar and fine player now based in Iowa City, but his goes to eleven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Timofeyev Eugene Interesting. I got the information about the Russian 10-string guitar from Oleg's Ph.D thesis (page 58). When I was looking around online I could only find information (via MO's site) about 11-string Russian guitars:7+4. Oleg is saying, in his thesis, that Russian guitars with extra basses have the same range as ordinary Russian guitars tuned down a tone. Maybe he has changed his mind. I've never seen music for Russian guitars with extra basses. Stuart -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Stuart Walsh Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 5:02 PM To: Monica Hall Cc: Vihuelalist Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee Monica Hall wrote: Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- Quite an intricate argument! So, for the Gallot pieces, the bass line is either implausibly low or - if an octave higher - then just one extra course tuned to G would give the same range as seven (!) extra basses? Sorry, if I've misunderstood. It might be slightly interesting to note that the normal 7-string Russian guitar (of the 19th century) had a version with extra basses but was tuned so that the lowest string was only one tone lower than the ordinary 7-string version. The ordinary Russian guitar has the seventh string at D, the Russian 10-string guitar has the lowest note at C. Yet, quite often, music for the 7-string guitar directs the player to lower the seventh string to C. So the ordinary, 7-string Russian guitar covers the same range as the 10-string version. But the extra basses are not primarily functioning to extend the range of bass notes but perhaps for sonority or to make some bass notes easier to play. Maybe something similar is intended for the Gallot instrument? Was it mentioned in the recent discussion that at least one maker is offering a guitar with extra basses - for playing the music of Granata...and...Gallot? Stuart References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.70/2329 - Release Date: 08/27/09 08:11:00 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.70/2329 - Release Date: 08/27/09 08:11:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
It has three open basses which are not covered by the courses on the fingerboard B A G. However the fifth course on the fingerboard is used only as an open course and the fourth course is stopped in only one place. The instrument seems to be designed to have almost entirely unstopped courses - rather like the angelique. Monica - Original Message - From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:02 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee Monica Hall wrote: Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- Quite an intricate argument! So, for the Gallot pieces, the bass line is either implausibly low or - if an octave higher - then just one extra course tuned to G would give the same range as seven (!) extra basses? Sorry, if I've misunderstood. It might be slightly interesting to note that the normal 7-string Russian guitar (of the 19th century) had a version with extra basses but was tuned so that the lowest string was only one tone lower than the ordinary 7-string version. The ordinary Russian guitar has the seventh string at D, the Russian 10-string guitar has the lowest note at C. Yet, quite often, music for the 7-string guitar directs the player to lower the seventh string to C. So the ordinary, 7-string Russian guitar covers the same range as the 10-string version. But the extra basses are not primarily functioning to extend the range of bass notes but perhaps for sonority or to make some bass notes easier to play. Maybe something similar is intended for the Gallot instrument? Was it mentioned in the recent discussion that at least one maker is offering a guitar with extra basses - for playing the music of Granata...and...Gallot? Stuart References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.70/2329 - Release Date: 08/27/09 08:11:00
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
But of course the Russian guitar employs overwound strings (as did the theorbo-like extension on the 19th century 'Bass' guitar as played by Mertz, Dubez and others) and produces a strong bass with relatively short basses and thus does not really tell us much about the earlier guitarre theorbee. MH --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld..com wrote: From: Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 10:02 PM Monica Hall wrote: Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- Quite an intricate argument! So, for the Gallot pieces, the bass line is either implausibly low or - if an octave higher - then just one extra course tuned to G would give the same range as seven (!) extra basses? Sorry, if I've misunderstood. It might be slightly interesting to note that the normal 7-string Russian guitar (of the 19th century) had a version with extra basses but was tuned so that the lowest string was only one tone lower than the ordinary 7-string version. The ordinary Russian guitar has the seventh string at D, the Russian 10-string guitar has the lowest note at C. Yet, quite often, music for the 7-string guitar directs the player to lower the seventh string to C. So the ordinary, 7-string Russian guitar covers the same range as the 10-string version. But the extra basses are not primarily functioning to extend the range of bass notes but perhaps for sonority or to make some bass notes easier to play. Maybe something similar is intended for the Gallot instrument? Was it mentioned in the recent discussion that at least one maker is offering a guitar with extra basses - for playing the music of Granata...and...Gallot? Stuart References 1. [1]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- - No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.70/2329 - Release Date: 08/27/09 08:11:00 -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [1]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee cyrillienne
-Original Message- From: Stuart Walsh [mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'Vihuelalist' Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Oleg is a great scholar and fine player now based in Iowa City, but his goes to eleven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Timofeyev Eugene Interesting. I got the information about the Russian 10-string guitar from Oleg's Ph.D thesis (page 58). When I was looking around online I could only find information (via MO's site) about 11-string Russian guitars:7+4. Oleg is saying, in his thesis, that Russian guitars with extra basses have the same range as ordinary Russian guitars tuned down a tone. Maybe he has changed his mind. I've never seen music for Russian guitars with extra basses. Stuart [Eugene C. Braig IV] I'm fairly certain Oleg would be happy to discuss such matters. I haven't been very faithful about patrolling it for a while, but when I was there with frequency, Oleg was a semi-regular at this forum (requires registration): http://lists.topica.com/lists/guitar-summit Oleg's own site: http://www.semistrunka.com/ I've handled Oleg's 11-string guitar, but I just cannot remember the maker or details. I believe it to be a product of the later 19th c. It is very much in the style of the ca. 1860 10-string instruments of the Austrian school typified by Scherzer, but sporting a label in Cyrillic characters (of which I have no ken), 11 strings, and a funny tuning (of course, a core of D-G-B-d-g-b-d'). If you do a Google video search for Oleg Timofeyev, you'll find many examples of him playing it, often in duo. Best, Eugene PS Organologists note: I made up that subject designation. It is word play only and not a proper reference to any instrument type of which I am aware, so please chuckle rather than hassle me for it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee cyrillienne
Oleg is in Kiev, Ukraine on the Fullbright, and he has no internet yet. So he won't be able to offer any insight for now. RT - Original Message - From: Eugene C. Braig IV brai...@osu.edu To: 'Stuart Walsh' s.wa...@ntlworld.com Cc: 'Vihuelalist' vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee cyrillienne -Original Message- From: Stuart Walsh [mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com] Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:20 AM To: Eugene C. Braig IV Cc: 'Vihuelalist' Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee Eugene C. Braig IV wrote: Oleg is a great scholar and fine player now based in Iowa City, but his goes to eleven. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Timofeyev Eugene Interesting. I got the information about the Russian 10-string guitar from Oleg's Ph.D thesis (page 58). When I was looking around online I could only find information (via MO's site) about 11-string Russian guitars:7+4. Oleg is saying, in his thesis, that Russian guitars with extra basses have the same range as ordinary Russian guitars tuned down a tone. Maybe he has changed his mind. I've never seen music for Russian guitars with extra basses. Stuart [Eugene C. Braig IV] I'm fairly certain Oleg would be happy to discuss such matters. I haven't been very faithful about patrolling it for a while, but when I was there with frequency, Oleg was a semi-regular at this forum (requires registration): http://lists.topica.com/lists/guitar-summit Oleg's own site: http://www.semistrunka.com/ I've handled Oleg's 11-string guitar, but I just cannot remember the maker or details. I believe it to be a product of the later 19th c. It is very much in the style of the ca. 1860 10-string instruments of the Austrian school typified by Scherzer, but sporting a label in Cyrillic characters (of which I have no ken), 11 strings, and a funny tuning (of course, a core of D-G-B-d-g-b-d'). If you do a Google video search for Oleg Timofeyev, you'll find many examples of him playing it, often in duo. Best, Eugene PS Organologists note: I made up that subject designation. It is word play only and not a proper reference to any instrument type of which I am aware, so please chuckle rather than hassle me for it. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Martyn Hodgson To: [2]Vihuelalist ; [3]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [4]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 4. http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata
Well I must apologise first for a very silly mistake that I have made. In Granata's Tuning B I have not included the low octave strings on the 4th and 5th courses. These gives a clearer and rather dramatic picture of the way the courses overlap. I have temporarily put the corrected tuning on my [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com page. I am in the process of correcting this and will then get long suffering Rob to swop the files. No excuse really but at one point I was considering whether the 4th and 5th courses were re-entrant. In the opening bars of the preludio there will be a drop of a 7th at the switch over from bass strings to 5th course if this has a low octave string. I must get the correct version sorted. Monica - Original Message - From: [2]Martyn Hodgson To: [3]Monica Hall Cc: [4]Vihuelalist Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 3:01 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Did Gary Boye explain why he had thought the basses were low? Or was it just on the basis of Pinnell's old Early Music article which had also assumed this with no explanation (as discussed in our previous communications) thus perpetuating a the myth. Regarding the representations, they may not be photographic quality but I would have thought the general sizing of the instrument (particularly the one Granata himself is shown playing) would have been roughly accurate. Martyn --- On Fri, 28/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Friday, 28 August, 2009, 12:00 PM Well - I feel I am between the devil and the deep blue sea here. Gary Boye has transcribed all the music into staff notation and I looked through this. I also discussed it with him and he was surprised at the idea that the basses might be high. I didn't want to commit myself too much with Granata until I have had time to make my own transcriptions - which is very time consuming. I was more concerned to sort out Gallot first and I may make some revisions later. I do think that we need to be cautious about the way we interpret illustrations. They are not intended to show the instruments in accurate detail. The Rabel drawings in particular don't seem to me to be very reliable. Monica - Original Message - From: [5]Martyn Hodgson To: [6]Vihuelalist ; [7]Monica Hall Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee or rather Chittarra atiorbata Thank you Monica. As you'll know from our earlier exchanges, I agree with the conclusions about the guitarre theorbee. However there are a couple of significant points about the chitarra atiorbata which you seem to have overlooked or ignored and which point to a rather different conclusion than you (that these instruments had the basses at the low octave): 1. A duplicated bass G is not an objection to the high tuning of the basses - Granata might have simply wished to have a continuous run of free basses. For example to allow a fast run on them without having to play the G away from the these basses and so interrupt the thumb's stroke. Indeed, a good example of this is in the opening Preludio Bar 1 ie 12 11 X 9 8 7 6 0. 2. The engraved depictions do not show the bass extensions 'slightly less' than a theorbos - they are considerably and significantly less! - this has a real bearing on the sound the basses make. Further, to suggest that this particular feature has been incorrectly represented by the engraver and can therefore be ignored is, I think, working backwards from a presumed conclusion (ie that the basses were at the low octave and thus needed to be longer than illustrated) rather than taking the important evidence at its face value. Martyn --- On Thu, 27/8/09, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote: From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk Subject: [VIHUELA] Guitarre theorbee To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Thursday, 27 August, 2009, 4:59 PM Just to let you all know that the final version of my thoughts on the subject of the Guitarre theorbee is now on my own web page - [1]www.monicahall.co.uk It includes a staff notation transcription of all twelve pieces from the Gallot manuscript. Monica -- References 1. [8]http://www.monicahall.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.earlyguitar.ning.com/ 2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk 3.
[VIHUELA] Re: Guitarre theorbee
I haven't seen the book but it's very likely to be this one: http://tinyurl.com/mu2pcu If the link won't work, search http://tinyurl.com/fnorz (first by clicking on Instruments et oevres d'art) for E.980.2.296 Anyway, there is little hope for the book as old as that to bring any 'sensational' breakthrough illustrations. For the time being, I'm afraid, we are stuck with just two (i.e. Granata, Rabel). Alexander Monica Hall wrote: I see that Donald Gill says that there is a drawing of the neck and pegbox of a late example of a theorboed guitar in the G. Thibault collection reproduced in a book by A. Berners Preservation and resoration of musical instruments. Has anyone seen this? It's in the BL but I can't get there this week. Martyn? Monica To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
