subject:"\[VIHUELA\] Re\: stringing and performance"



   And I don't agree with you when you assert 'it is not possible to hold
   Chord G and play the
   4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret' !   Clearly and obviously
   it's not possible if you hold on the full chord  (and indeed the M3
   would have the same stricture) but there is another way to continue the
   general harmony AND playing the scalic note - as below. I shall have to
   go on at length since this is much easier to demonstrate in the flesh
   rather than on the page but stay with me.

   What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not
   rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum and
   then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5 but
   with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing some of
   the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th) lift
   the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course and
   brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd fret on
   the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course.  I believe this sort
   of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I say
   it, second nature.

   Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that there
   was not general stanardisation and that each source should be examined
   individually without automatically assuming one sources observations
   necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that Corbetta
   felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular
   book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be
   executed instead.

The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush
   carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust the
   stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse of
   the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is
   heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and I'd
   very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying harmony
   is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and
   emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates alone.
   So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but, note
   that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the 5th
   course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third and
   5th with first). if one feels so inclined.

   In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more
   flexible and serve to enhance  the music of this splendid repertoire
   than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course?

   as ever,

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57

   I'm afraid I don't agree.   It is physically possible to hold Chord M
   and
   play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
   play the
   4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.   The 5th course stopped at
   the
   3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply
   be
   repeating Chord G.
   On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
   first
   fret whilst holding Chord B.   There are some problems following Chord
   N on
   line 4 as well.
   I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style.   What Corbetta
   says
   in 1639 is very relevant here...
   Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke
   marks, these  are all intended to be played on the first course [canto]
   only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it
   is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different
   fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter.  In this way it seems  to
   me to create a better and more delicate effect.
   In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st
   course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it
   applies more generally.
   You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other
   circumstances.   What is the point of doing it here.   There is a clear
   melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta
   says.
   MOnica
   - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
   [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   
   
  Dear Monica,
   
  I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the
   notes
  after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with
   a
  bit of care

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


This is an important point - because he does often indicate that
up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very
practical - I have tried it.


In this context? How does he indicate that?


I had in mind a specific example - in the Spagnoletta on p.8.   In the
second section on the first line, the 6 following Chord M seems to be
intended to be played as a single note and has a down stroke.  In his fourth
Rule Fosco indicates that notes like these should be played as single 
notes ---


Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers which
are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played singly; that is
to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are
shown.  In this way the true  effect of the ornamental notes  will be felt
and the parts will follow clearly one  after the other which is what I
intend.

This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always be 
accomapnied the chords even if this is possible.



The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord
rather than inserting it into the chord - so  it is not comparable with
what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it


Foscarini does that all the time.


Does what all the time?   Introduce the 4th into the chord and not resolve
it.  Can you give some examples.  That is not what he suggests in Rule 5.




Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of
experimenting with the mixed style.


I see no good reason


Well you wouldn't of course. Once you have made up your mind you are not 
willing to consider alternative ideas.  Even if we assume that the passage 
is to be strummed throughout there is no reason to assume that all the open 
courses should be included in all the chords.   You have left out the 5th 
course in two places in your example 3 and in the final chord of your 
example 5.  It seems that as far as you are concerned it is more important 
to eliminate 6/4 chords than meaningless dissonance.   It  would make more 
sense to treat the third chord as a 3-part one.


This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of interpreting 
it.   I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly practice to jump to 
conclusions about anything in it.  There are one or two places in the 
alfabeto pieces whether there are figures although I am not sure how these 
should be interpreted.


I would also point out that there are dots after several of the stroke 
marks.   They are there for a purpose.


One other point on a different subject.   In the examples in Alex Dean's 
dissertation chords G, H and M are regularly used and these are all played 
with a barre.   Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key 
signature or one flat so that some of the chords are not much use any.   The 
songs are not necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch.   The 
whole point of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose to a 
pitch that suites the singer.   This would involve the other chords.


Monica







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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

   Thanks for the detailed analysis.   I agree with you about the
   alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are
   supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords!



   If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't.



   Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers
   which are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played
   singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings
   than those which are shown.  In this way the true  effect of the
   ornamental notes  will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one
   after the other which is what I intend.


   Monica

   - Original Message -

   From: [1]Chris Despopoulos

   To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson

   Cc: [4]Vihuelalist

   Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM

   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

   Ok...  I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by and
   large I agree with Monica.  Where I don't agree is when she says:
 One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
   Corrente
 detta
 la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.  He has marked the
 passing
 notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on
   the
 first
 line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.  These
 can't
 actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G
 can't!).
   I agree with the above, but not the following...
 Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all with
 upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes
 with the
 thumb.
 The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically
 play
 the notes.  They have a musical significance but no practical use.
   I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for
   these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the
   note, and the index finger for the up-beat.  In other words, I'm
   thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the
   indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion.  So I would
   say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ...
   As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing
   Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is
   very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a
   down-stroke.  And these are to be alternated in relation to the
   rhythmic structure of the piece.  So why would it be different on the
   guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible -- something
   I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one.
   An added thing I found in trying the piece out...  It pays to hold the
   chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note passages.
   But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage.
   AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect
   sense!  If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an up-stroke
   of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9...  D-p-ma-p | H-G-O.
   I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and
   the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers.  Also, I
   let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following thumb
   upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming H.
   All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort of
   fell into place that way.
   Whew...  Sorry if this is over the top.
   For me the bottom line is maintaining the strumming sensation, in my
   mind, and in my hands as much as possible.  Which gets to Monica's last
   statement...  The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
   physically play.  True, but they do have a practical use if they keep
   you oriented in the pulse of the music.
   Thanks for pointing to a lovely piece.  If I can get the transition
   from the N7 to the M+5 in measure 26, I'll add it to my regular bag of
   tricks.
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 10:57:52 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   I'm afraid I don't agree.  It is physically possible to hold Chord M
   and
   play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
   play the
   4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.  The 5th course stopped at
   the
   3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply
   be
   repeating Chord G.
   On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
   first
   fret whilst holding Chord B.  There are some problems following Chord N
   on
   line 4 as well.
   I think the whole piece

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


All I can do is to repeat what Foscarini says himself -

Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers which
are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played singly; that is
to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are
shown.  In this way the true  effect of the ornamental notes  will be felt
and the parts will follow clearly one  after the other which is what I
intend.

What you are suggesting seems to me to be needlessly complicated.   It is 
possible to all sorts of things if you really want to but whether the 
musical results are worth listening to in the end is another matter.


Monica


- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:50 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





  And I don't agree with you when you assert 'it is not possible to hold
  Chord G and play the
  4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret' !   Clearly and obviously
  it's not possible if you hold on the full chord  (and indeed the M3
  would have the same stricture) but there is another way to continue the
  general harmony AND playing the scalic note - as below. I shall have to
  go on at length since this is much easier to demonstrate in the flesh
  rather than on the page but stay with me.

  What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not
  rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum and
  then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5 but
  with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing some of
  the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th) lift
  the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course and
  brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd fret on
  the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course.  I believe this sort
  of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I say
  it, second nature.

  Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that there
  was not general stanardisation and that each source should be examined
  individually without automatically assuming one sources observations
  necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that Corbetta
  felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular
  book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be
  executed instead.

   The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush
  carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust the
  stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse of
  the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is
  heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and I'd
  very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying harmony
  is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and
  emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates alone.
  So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but, note
  that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the 5th
  course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third and
  5th with first). if one feels so inclined.

  In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more
  flexible and serve to enhance  the music of this splendid repertoire
  than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course?

  as ever,

  Martyn
  --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57

  I'm afraid I don't agree.   It is physically possible to hold Chord M
  and
  play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
  play the
  4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.   The 5th course stopped at
  the
  3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply
  be
  repeating Chord G.
  On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
  first
  fret whilst holding Chord B.   There are some problems following Chord
  N on
  line 4 as well.
  I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style.   What Corbetta
  says
  in 1639 is very relevant here...
  Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke
  marks, these  are all intended to be played on the first course [canto]
  only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it
  is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different
  fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter.  In this way it seems  to
  me to create a better and more delicate effect.
  In this instance he is referring to single notes

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-03 Thread Lex Eisenhardt




In his fourth
Rule Fosco indicates that notes like these should be played as single 
notes ---


Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers which
are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played singly; that is
to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which are
shown.  In this way the true  effect of the ornamental notes  will be felt
and the parts will follow clearly one  after the other which is what I
intend.


The strict application of Foscarini's fourth rule leads to new questions. In 
many places we first have a chord (for example A major = letter I), then 
comes a single 3 on the second line of the tab (the note d') and then the 
strumming continues while there is nothing in the tab. The most obvious 
solution is to return to the original chord, but it is unclear. If the 
original chord should be strummed in full again, what about the single note?
As an example may serve the 'Fulias con parti variate' on p.34. On the first 
line there is an A major. On the third beat of the 'bar' the 4 of the chord 
(the d' with figure '3' on the second course) is introduced (yes, Foscarini 
does that often), and the first next downstroke has nothing. We all would 
play a full A chord there, but it seems reasonable to include the ornamental 
d' (as a 4-3) in a full strum as well. And be tolerant with regard to the 
Fourth Rule.



This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always be 
accomapnied the chords even if this is possible.


Not always, but in certain situations.

By the way, a situation which is very similar to the ex 5 from my article 
(Lute 47) can be found halfway the fourth line of Foscarini's p. 32. All 
strummed, and probably including all courses.




I see no good reason


Well you wouldn't of course. Once you have made up your  you are not 
willing to consider X X.


[X's are censored]


This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of interpreting 
it.   I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly practice to jump to 
conclusions about anything in it.


Then don't


One other point on a different subject.   In the examples in Alex Dean's 
dissertation chords G, H and M are regularly used and these are all played 
with a barre.


I will have to repeat that I have never intended to say that barre's did not 
exist. But it seems they were avoided in the _early_ stage, when the guitar 
and its stringing were emerging.



Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key signature or one 
flat so that some of the chords are not much use any.   The songs are not 
necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch.   The whole point 
of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose to a pitch that 
suites the singer.   This would involve the other chords.


The table is of the sort of pedantry which we often find in tutors.

Lex 





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

There seems to me to be one obvious flaw in this advice..in order to 
play an open 4th course you would need to release the barre or shift it to a 
half barre as well removing the 3rd fingure from the 5th course and the 4th 
finger from the fourth course.


What sort of evidence is there for this sort of discriminatory play anyway?

Monica


  What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not
  rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum and
  then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5 but
  with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing some of
  the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th) lift
  the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course and
  brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd fret on
  the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course.  I believe this sort
  of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I say
  it, second nature.

  Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that there
  was not general stanardisation and that each source should be examined
  individually without automatically assuming one sources observations
  necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that Corbetta
  felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular
  book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be
  executed instead.

   The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush
  carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust the
  stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse of
  the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is
  heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and I'd
  very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying harmony
  is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and
  emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates alone.
  So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but, note
  that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the 5th
  course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third and
  5th with first). if one feels so inclined.

  In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more
  flexible and serve to enhance  the music of this splendid repertoire
  than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course?

  as ever,

  Martyn
  --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57

  I'm afraid I don't agree.   It is physically possible to hold Chord M
  and
  play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
  play the
  4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.   The 5th course stopped at
  the
  3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply
  be
  repeating Chord G.
  On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
  first
  fret whilst holding Chord B.   There are some problems following Chord
  N on
  line 4 as well.
  I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style.   What Corbetta
  says
  in 1639 is very relevant here...
  Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke
  marks, these  are all intended to be played on the first course [canto]
  only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it
  is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different
  fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter.  In this way it seems  to
  me to create a better and more delicate effect.
  In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st
  course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it
  applies more generally.
  You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other
  circumstances.   What is the point of doing it here.   There is a clear
  melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta
  says.
  MOnica
  - Original Message - From: Martyn Hodgson
  [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
  
  
 Dear Monica,
  
 I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the
  notes
 after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with
  a
 bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the
  answering
 phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a
  passing
 dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time ago,
 seems to be a hallmark of much

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


The strict application of Foscarini's fourth rule leads to new questions.
In
many places we first have a chord (for example A major = letter I), then
comes a single 3 on the second line of the tab (the note d') and then the
strumming continues while there is nothing in the tab. The most obvious
solution is to return to the original chord, but it is unclear. If the
original chord should be strummed in full again, what about the single
note?


The fourth rule does not apply in this circumstance.   It is covered by
Foscarini's Fifth rule.

And if there is  a number following after [the letter] either above or
below, you should ensure that  this can be heard clearly and distinctly,
whether the stroke is made  up or down.  If after any such number you find
another stroke WITHOUT a letter,  this stroke belongs to the preceding
letter which should be repeated.  This rule applies in general to many of
the pieces that you may play, and among others it is  appropriate  to the
Corrente, dette la Favorita found on  page 60.

I do wish you lot would actually read these introductions..


This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always be
accomapnied the chords even if this is possible.


Not always, but in certain situations.


The situations are clearly covered in Foscarini's two rules.


By the way, a situation which is very similar to the ex 5 from my article
(Lute 47) can be found halfway the fourth line of Foscarini's p. 32. All
strummed, and probably including all courses.


It also occurs on the first line preceding Chord I+ without a stroke mark.
Who is to say which is intended given the inconsistency of Fosco's notation. 
In both contexts a 3-part chord makes

more sense.   But we have gone over all this before.


This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of
interpreting it.   I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly practice
to jump to conclusions about anything in it.


Then don't


I am not doing - I think there at least three different ways of interpreting
the passage. I was merely suggesting an alternative way of looking at things
and have never committed myself to one view or the other.  It seems that you
have as you haven't even suggested the possiblity that some of the chords
might include fewer than five courses (6/4s excepted).





I will have to repeat that I have never intended to say that barre's did
not exist. But it seems they were avoided in the _early_ stage, when the
guitar and its stringing were emerging.


Which early stage?  How do you know?   Even the table of chords in the 
Cancionero de Bezon includes chords G, H, M and possibly K although it is 
difficult to read.



Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key signature or one
flat so that some of the chords are not much use any.   The songs are not
necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch.   The whole point
of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose to a pitch
that suites the singer.   This would involve the other chords.


The table is of the sort of pedantry which we often find in tutors.


With which you no doubt are very familiar but dont understand how to use.

Monica


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Postscript to my last message - chords G and H are used in the Cancionero 
Bezon (dated 1599) in both the alfabeto song texts and the strummed 
passacalles.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 12:23 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



The strict application of Foscarini's fourth rule leads to new questions.
In
many places we first have a chord (for example A major = letter I), then
comes a single 3 on the second line of the tab (the note d') and then the
strumming continues while there is nothing in the tab. The most obvious
solution is to return to the original chord, but it is unclear. If the
original chord should be strummed in full again, what about the single
note?


The fourth rule does not apply in this circumstance.   It is covered by
Foscarini's Fifth rule.

And if there is  a number following after [the letter] either above or
below, you should ensure that  this can be heard clearly and distinctly,
whether the stroke is made  up or down.  If after any such number you find
another stroke WITHOUT a letter,  this stroke belongs to the preceding
letter which should be repeated.  This rule applies in general to many of
the pieces that you may play, and among others it is  appropriate  to the
Corrente, dette la Favorita found on  page 60.

I do wish you lot would actually read these introductions..

This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always 
be

accomapnied the chords even if this is possible.


Not always, but in certain situations.


The situations are clearly covered in Foscarini's two rules.


By the way, a situation which is very similar to the ex 5 from my article
(Lute 47) can be found halfway the fourth line of Foscarini's p. 32. All
strummed, and probably including all courses.


It also occurs on the first line preceding Chord I+ without a stroke mark.
Who is to say which is intended given the inconsistency of Fosco's 
notation. In both contexts a 3-part chord makes

more sense.   But we have gone over all this before.


This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of
interpreting it.   I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly 
practice

to jump to conclusions about anything in it.


Then don't


I am not doing - I think there at least three different ways of 
interpreting
the passage. I was merely suggesting an alternative way of looking at 
things
and have never committed myself to one view or the other.  It seems that 
you

have as you haven't even suggested the possiblity that some of the chords
might include fewer than five courses (6/4s excepted).





I will have to repeat that I have never intended to say that barre's did
not exist. But it seems they were avoided in the _early_ stage, when the
guitar and its stringing were emerging.


Which early stage?  How do you know?   Even the table of chords in the 
Cancionero de Bezon includes chords G, H, M and possibly K although it is 
difficult to read.



Moreover all of the songs are in keys which have no key signature or one
flat so that some of the chords are not much use any.   The songs are 
not

necessarily intended to be performed at written pitch.   The whole point
of Amat's tables etc. is to enable the player to transpose to a pitch
that suites the singer.   This would involve the other chords.


The table is of the sort of pedantry which we often find in tutors.


With which you no doubt are very familiar but dont understand how to use.

Monica


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-03 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   Ah...  I didn't mean to strum through a chord while playing these
   notes.  What I meant was to let the chord ring as much as possible
   while actually striking the indicated single notes.  I find lots of
   places where that can be done without diminishing the clarity of the
   single notes at all.  For example, in the first measures of this piece
   it's easy to let most of the chord ring on while playing these other
   notes.
   I think of this as similar to the general tab rule I've had drilled
   into my head...  Strike notes with the values indicated, but let them
   ring as long as possible.  Lacking the expression of duration that
   modern notation has, I assume that's a general rule for tablatura.  And
   so why would it be different when playing a chord?  Are you taking that
   to be my meaning when you say I'm incorporating passing notes into the
   chords?
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 4:11:28 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 Thanks for the detailed analysis.  I agree with you about the
 alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are
 supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords!
 If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't.
 Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers
 which are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played
 singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings
 than those which are shown.  In this way the true  effect of the
 ornamental notes  will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one
 after the other which is what I intend.
 Monica
 - Original Message -
 From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
 To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson
 Cc: [4]Vihuelalist
 Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 Ok...  I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by
   and
 large I agree with Monica.  Where I don't agree is when she says:
   One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
 Corrente
   detta
   la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.  He has marked
   the
   passing
   notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on
 the
   first
   line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.
   These
   can't
   actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord
   G
   can't!).
 I agree with the above, but not the following...
   Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all
   with
   upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as
   down-strokes
   with the
   thumb.
   The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
   physically
   play
   the notes.  They have a musical significance but no practical use.
 I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for
 these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the
 note, and the index finger for the up-beat.  In other words, I'm
 thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the
 indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion.  So I would
 say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ...
 As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing
 Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is
 very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a
 down-stroke.  And these are to be alternated in relation to the
 rhythmic structure of the piece.  So why would it be different on the
 guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible --
   something
 I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one.
 An added thing I found in trying the piece out...  It pays to hold
   the
 chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note
   passages.
 But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage.
 AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect
 sense!  If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an
   up-stroke
 of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9...  D-p-ma-p | H-G-O.
 I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and
 the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers.  Also, I
 let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following thumb
 upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming
   H.
 All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort of
 fell into place that way.
 Whew...  Sorry if this is over the top.
 For me

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


   Has anyone said ALL passing notes are always accompanied. In the below
   you say : 'This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes
   should always be accompanied the chords even if this is possible'.

   As far as I'm concerned I believe it can be used according to 'taste';
   if I understand you aright it should never be used

   Martyn

   --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 9:09

This is an important point - because he does often indicate that
up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very
practical - I have tried it.
   
In this context? How does he indicate that?
   I had in mind a specific example - in the Spagnoletta on p.8.   In the
   second section on the first line, the 6 following Chord M seems to be
   intended to be played as a single note and has a down stroke.  In his
   fourth
   Rule Fosco indicates that notes like these should be played as single
   notes ---
   Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers
   which
   are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played singly; that
   is
   to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which
   are
   shown.  In this way the true  effect of the ornamental notes  will be
   felt
   and the parts will follow clearly one  after the other which is what I
   intend.
   This really excludes the idea that all the passing notes should always
   be accomapnied the chords even if this is possible.
The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the
   chord
rather than inserting it into the chord - so  it is not comparable
   with
what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve
   it
   
Foscarini does that all the time.
   Does what all the time?   Introduce the 4th into the chord and not
   resolve
   it.  Can you give some examples.  That is not what he suggests in Rule
   5.
   
   
Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early
   example of
experimenting with the mixed style.
   
I see no good reason
   Well you wouldn't of course. Once you have made up your mind you are
   not willing to consider alternative ideas.  Even if we assume that the
   passage is to be strummed throughout there is no reason to assume that
   all the open courses should be included in all the chords.   You have
   left out the 5th course in two places in your example 3 and in the
   final chord of your example 5.  It seems that as far as you are
   concerned it is more important to eliminate 6/4 chords than meaningless
   dissonance.   It  would make more sense to treat the third chord as a
   3-part one.
   This is a very obscure source and there are different ways of
   interpreting it.   I wouldn't myself regard it as good scholarly
   practice to jump to conclusions about anything in it.  There are one or
   two places in the alfabeto pieces whether there are figures although I
   am not sure how these should be interpreted.
   I would also point out that there are dots after several of the stroke
   marks.   They are there for a purpose.
   One other point on a different subject.   In the examples in Alex
   Dean's dissertation chords G, H and M are regularly used and these are
   all played with a barre.   Moreover all of the songs are in keys which
   have no key signature or one flat so that some of the chords are not
   much use any.   The songs are not necessarily intended to be performed
   at written pitch.   The whole point of Amat's tables etc. is to enable
   the player to transpose to a pitch that suites the singer.   This would
   involve the other chords.
   Monica
   
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

   Ah - but the point you made was that it wasn't possible - I simply set
   out to show it was!

   M
   --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 9:17

   All I can do is to repeat what Foscarini says himself -
   Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers
   which
   are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played singly; that
   is
   to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings than those which
   are
   shown.  In this way the true  effect of the ornamental notes  will be
   felt
   and the parts will follow clearly one  after the other which is what I
   intend.
   What you are suggesting seems to me to be needlessly complicated.   It
   is
   possible to all sorts of things if you really want to but whether the
   musical results are worth listening to in the end is another matter.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 8:50 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

  And I don't agree with you when you assert 'it is not possible to
   hold
  Chord G and play the
  4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret' !   Clearly and
   obviously
  it's not possible if you hold on the full chord  (and indeed the M3
  would have the same stricture) but there is another way to continue
   the
  general harmony AND playing the scalic note - as below. I shall
   have to
  go on at length since this is much easier to demonstrate in the
   flesh
  rather than on the page but stay with me.

  What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not
  rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum
   and
  then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5
   but
  with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing
   some of
  the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th)
   lift
  the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course
   and
  brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd
   fret on
  the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course.  I believe this
   sort
  of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I
   say
  it, second nature.

  Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that
   there
  was not general stanardisation and that each source should be
   examined
  individually without automatically assuming one sources
   observations
  necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that
   Corbetta
  felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular
  book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be
  executed instead.

   The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush
  carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust
   the
  stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse
   of
  the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is
  heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and
   I'd
  very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying
   harmony
  is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and
  emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates
   alone.
  So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but,
   note
  that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the
   5th
  course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third
   and
  5th with first). if one feels so inclined.

  In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more
  flexible and serve to enhance  the music of this splendid
   repertoire
  than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course?

  as ever,

  Martyn
  --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

From: Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Martyn Hodgson [6]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57

  I'm afraid I don't agree.   It is physically possible to hold Chord
   M
  and
  play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
  play the
  4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.   The 5th course
   stopped at
  the
  3rd fret has to be played

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


   You also ask 'What sort of evidence is there for this sort of
   discriminatory play anyway?'. Which is rather begging the question - if
   it were crystal clear we'd not be joined in debate over this very
   issue.

   As far as I'm concerned it is the original sources which are the
   starting point which is the start and a good source is the de Gallot
   MS. Numerous pieces intabulate chords followed by single letters with
   an up or down slash on the top line as in the Foscarini we discussed (a
   down or up strum/brush I suggest) but in the same piece one can also
   find a chord (with slash) followed by tablature with the flag ABOVE the
   stave - whiich I suggest certainly does mean play this alone as single
   notes.  In short the same piece will often contain both
   strummed/brushed single notes with accompanying chord and single notes
   played alone. Numerous examples - eg Pasacaille on page 72.

   As already said, Corbetta's stricture also indicates strumming of such
   passing notes with part of the accompanying chord was not unkown

   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 3/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 3 September, 2010, 11:59

   There seems to me to be one obvious flaw in this advice..in order
   to play an open 4th course you would need to release the barre or shift
   it to a half barre as well removing the 3rd fingure from the 5th course
   and the 4th finger from the fourth course.
   What sort of evidence is there for this sort of discriminatory play
   anyway?
   Monica
  What you need to do is bear in mind is my comment earlier about not
  rigidly expecting to always play all 5 courses every time you strum
   and
  then do this: at G strum all 5, at the 3 again strum the G chord 5
   but
  with the accente on the 5th course (just maybe lightly brushing
   some of
  the higher courses of the chord - if at all), then at 0 (on 4th)
   lift
  the 3rd finger from the 5th course and the 4th from the 4th course
   and
  brush upwards, then on the 2 put the 3rd finger down on the 2nd
   fret on
  the 4th course and brush down from the 4th course.  I believe this
   sort
  of discriminatory play was generally expected and becomes, dare I
   say
  it, second nature.
   
  Regarding what Corbetta has to say: you often make the point that
   there
  was not general stanardisation and that each source should be
   examined
  individually without automatically assuming one sources
   observations
  necessarily applies to another. And isn't it interesting that
   Corbetta
  felt the need to say only strike a single string in this particular
  book - indicating that it was known for a short strum/brush to be
  executed instead.
   
   The point about discriminatory play is that not every strum/brush
  carries the same weight - it's more subtle than that - one adjust
   the
  stress according to the melodic and harmonic phrasing and the pulse
   of
  the music. Indeed, in some cases it may be that almost all that is
  heard is the single note (especially if it is in the treble) and
   I'd
  very much go for a mixture in which sometimes the accompanying
   harmony
  is heard (especially when the melody can be easily executed and
  emphasised on the top course) or where the melody predominates
   alone.
  So in your B chord example, yes I do strike the 1 and 3 alone but,
   note
  that it is quite possible to play the B chord with fret 1 on the
   5th
  course (finger 2nd course with 2nd finger and 4th course with third
   and
  5th with first). if one feels so inclined.
   
  In short, I believe the strummin/brushing possibilities are more
  flexible and serve to enhance  the music of this splendid
   repertoire
  than I think you do - but maybe I can convert you in due course?
   
  as ever,
   
  Martyn
  --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Martyn Hodgson [3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 15:57
   
  I'm afraid I don't agree.   It is physically possible to hold Chord
   M
  and
  play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
  play the
  4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.   The 5th course
   stopped at
  the
  3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would
   simply
  be
  repeating Chord G.
  On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
  first
  fret whilst holding

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

I am not sure whether there is any point in replying to this if Lex has 
already  left the list but in case anyone is interested..



And if there is  a number following after [the letter] either above or
below, you should ensure that  this can be heard clearly and distinctly,
whether the stroke is made  up or down.  If after any such number you 
find

another stroke WITHOUT a letter,  this stroke belongs to the preceding
letter which should be repeated.  This rule applies in general to many of
the pieces that you may play, and among others it is  appropriate  to the
Corrente, dette la Favorita found on  page 60.


I admit that it takes some effort to understand. It says indeed that you 
have to play the 'number following after [the letter]' in such a way that 
it can be heard clearly and distinctly. Together with the rest of the 
chord or not?


Of course.   If you look at the examples which he gives it is obvious that 
what he is describing is a 4-3 suspension and that the altered note is 
included in the first chord and resolved in the second.   If Lex does get 
this message I would refer him to Gary Boyes' dissertation on Granata p.51 
where Gary  has translated the rule and given a musical example.   What 
Foscarini is describing is quite different from what is happening in the 
Pedruil example.


Which early stage?  How do you know?   Even the table of chords in the 
Cancionero de Bezon includes chords G, H, M and possibly K although it is 
difficult to read.


Same pedantry, although it is interesting to see that a number of barre 
chords are lacking from the chart.


The chart has not been completely filled in.   The barre chords are used in 
the alfabeto texts and passacalles notated in alfabeto.


After pushing the 'send' button I will immediately unsubscribe from the 
[VIHUELA] list. Again, and for the same reason.


Well - as we say over hear If you can't stand the heat stay out of the 
kitchen.


Monica



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

   Yes - what you are saying makes perfect sense.  For example when you
   are playing the piano this is exactly what happens.



   Monica

   - Original Message -

   From: [1]Chris Despopoulos

   To: [2]Monica Hall

   Cc: [3]Vihuelalist

   Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:59 PM

   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

   Ah...  I didn't mean to strum through a chord while playing these
   notes.  What I meant was to let the chord ring as much as possible
   while actually striking the indicated single notes.  I find lots of
   places where that can be done without diminishing the clarity of the
   single notes at all.  For example, in the first measures of this piece
   it's easy to let most of the chord ring on while playing these other
   notes.
   I think of this as similar to the general tab rule I've had drilled
   into my head...  Strike notes with the values indicated, but let them
   ring as long as possible.  Lacking the expression of duration that
   modern notation has, I assume that's a general rule for tablatura.  And
   so why would it be different when playing a chord?  Are you taking that
   to be my meaning when you say I'm incorporating passing notes into the
   chords?
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 4:11:28 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 Thanks for the detailed analysis.  I agree with you about the
 alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are
 supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords!
 If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't.
 Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers
 which are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played
 singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings
 than those which are shown.  In this way the true  effect of the
 ornamental notes  will be felt and the parts will follow clearly one
 after the other which is what I intend.
 Monica
 - Original Message -
 From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
 To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson
 Cc: [4]Vihuelalist
 Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 Ok...  I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by
   and
 large I agree with Monica.  Where I don't agree is when she says:
   One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
 Corrente
   detta
   la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.  He has marked
   the
   passing
   notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on
 the
   first
   line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.
   These
   can't
   actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord
   G
   can't!).
 I agree with the above, but not the following...
   Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all
   with
   upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as
   down-strokes
   with the
   thumb.
   The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
   physically
   play
   the notes.  They have a musical significance but no practical use.
 I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for
 these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the
 note, and the index finger for the up-beat.  In other words, I'm
 thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the
 indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion.  So I would
 say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ...
 As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing
 Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is
 very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a
 down-stroke.  And these are to be alternated in relation to the
 rhythmic structure of the piece.  So why would it be different on the
 guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible --
   something
 I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one.
 An added thing I found in trying the piece out...  It pays to hold
   the
 chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note
   passages.
 But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage.
 AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect
 sense!  If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an
   up-stroke
 of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9...  D-p-ma-p | H-G-O.
 I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and
 the ma is pretty much the same

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-03 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   I'm glad to hear that.  Mind you, I'm coming to this with more of an
   intuitive sense of what works under my hands.  I do read the
   instructions and manuscripts when I have them, but I'm still pretty new
   at this.  I take it as an affirmation for me that the instructions
   don't seem to contradict what I would consider to be the logic of the
   instrument (or is it vis versa???).
   Anyway...  I'm glad lists like this are around.
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 2:31:02 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 Yes - what you are saying makes perfect sense.  For example when you
 are playing the piano this is exactly what happens.
 Monica
 - Original Message -
 From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
 To: [2]Monica Hall
 Cc: [3]Vihuelalist
 Sent: Friday, September 03, 2010 3:59 PM
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 Ah...  I didn't mean to strum through a chord while playing these
 notes.  What I meant was to let the chord ring as much as possible
 while actually striking the indicated single notes.  I find lots of
 places where that can be done without diminishing the clarity of the
 single notes at all.  For example, in the first measures of this
   piece
 it's easy to let most of the chord ring on while playing these other
 notes.
 I think of this as similar to the general tab rule I've had drilled
 into my head...  Strike notes with the values indicated, but let them
 ring as long as possible.  Lacking the expression of duration that
 modern notation has, I assume that's a general rule for tablatura.
   And
 so why would it be different when playing a chord?  Are you taking
   that
 to be my meaning when you say I'm incorporating passing notes into
   the
 chords?
 cud
   __
 From: Monica Hall [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 To: Chris Despopoulos [2]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
 Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Fri, September 3, 2010 4:11:28 AM
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   Thanks for the detailed analysis.  I agree with you about the
   alternating thumb and finger technique but I dont think you are
   supposed to incorporate the passing notes into the chords!
   If you read my message to Lex you wll see that Fosco says don't.
   Fourthly Particular care must  be taken when playing  those numbers
   which are placed after an alfabeto letter.  These must be played
   singly; that is to say you must pluck neither less nor more strings
   than those which are shown.  In this way the true  effect of the
   ornamental notes  will be felt and the parts will follow clearly
   one
   after the other which is what I intend.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: [1]Chris Despopoulos
   To: [2]Monica Hall ; [3]Martyn Hodgson
   Cc: [4]Vihuelalist
   Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 9:03 PM
   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   Ok...  I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by
 and
   large I agree with Monica.  Where I don't agree is when she says:
 One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
   Corrente
 detta
 la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.  He has marked
 the
 passing
 notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G
   on
   the
 first
 line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.
 These
 can't
 actually be included in the chord (at least those following
   chord
 G
 can't!).
   I agree with the above, but not the following...
 Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all
 with
 upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as
 down-strokes
 with the
 thumb.
 The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
 physically
 play
 the notes.  They have a musical significance but no practical
   use.
   I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index
   for
   these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of
   the
   note, and the index finger for the up-beat.  In other words, I'm
   thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the
   indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion.  So I
   would
   say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ...
   As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing
   Chancy's tablatures on the mandore

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



   Indeed.

   I hope this finally scotches the view that the 'barre' only really
   became common with the advent of the 6 string guitar - at least that
   was my intention!

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 16:27

   Quite a few of the pieces in Foscarini's third book (1632)  include
   passage
   just shifting up and down the fingerboard - usually with chord N and
   chord
   M.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
   [3]eisenha...@planet.nl
   Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:27 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   
   
  I wouldn't have considered Valdambrini 1646/47 a late source and he
  certainly peppers many pieces with movable alfabeto shapes in all
  positions up to and including thos requiring a 'barre' on the 9th
  fret.  Without a detailed search I noted the following alfabeto
   shapes
  used used in this high position: M N P S H K G
   
  In his table to Book 2 (p 39) he even shows G H M S with a 'barre'
   on
  the 10th and 11the fret! But I couldn't see he used higher than the
   9th
  in his pieces.
   
  MH
  --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt [4]eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:
   
From: Lex Eisenhardt [5]eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Vihuelalist [6]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 13:45
   
  What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of
   the
  24 were used in practice. The _early_  sources we have (Of cifras:
  Briceno, for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of
   just a
  limited selection, mainly in first position.
  Lex
  - Original Message - From: Monica Hall
  [1][7]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  To: Martyn Hodgson [2][8]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [3][9]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in
   Spain
  where it all began.   Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24,
  many of which are played with a barre.
  
   Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the
   correct
  chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't
  accommodate more complex chromatic harmony.
  
   Monica
  
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [4][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   
  --
   
References
   
  1.
   [11]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  2.
   
   [12]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co
   .uk
  3.
   [13]http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.e
   du
  4. [14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   

   --

References

   1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   2. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
   4. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
   5. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=eisenha...@planet.nl
   6. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   7. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   8. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   9. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  11. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  12. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  13. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  14. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



   Dear Monica,

   I'm really not sure you're right when you say below  'And while we are
   on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is
   a contradicition in terms.   They may put a strum mark under a single
   note but it is still a single note.'

In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part
   of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the
   single note is dissonant.  Foscarini is a good example of this.

   as ever,

   Martyn
   --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10

Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however,
   who did
what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in
   songs
and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype.
   It is what happened to be published.
   This is to
say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally
   used to
give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most
   likely
also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy.
   Feel
free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would
   be
helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination,
   but how
far should that go?
   It would be interesting to know your sources.   The only printed guitar
   book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo,
   although there are some manuscripts.  How many of these have you seen?
   Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just
   suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more
   obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass
   line.
   The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616
   - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean.   Most of the songs
   in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a
   guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems intentional and
   works in practice.
I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in
   which
I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all
   kinds
of extra notes added.
   As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in
   assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed
   in full.   It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to
   be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean
   that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open
   courses.   There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the
   first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted
   crotchet followed by a quaver.
   The point is that in very early sources they were experimenting with
   ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes as well as
   just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums.   In a
   situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the
   stroke marks have a dual function.   They indicate the duration of the
   notes and make the music easier to read.   A suitable notation was not
   invented overnight.   It evolved - and that is true of notation as a
   whole not just baroque guitar notation.   You are simply working on the
   assumption that what the signs mean in later sources should be
   interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
   And while we are on the subject please note that you can't strum a
   single note - that is a contradicition in terms.   They may put a strum
   mark under a single note but it is still a single note.
   Perhaps you should read The baroque guitar made simple on my web
   page.
   M
   
   
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


   Dear Lex,

You write below that 'I can assure you that many pupils hate them
   ('barre' chords) intensely.'

   Well some beginners may find them a trouble at first but experience
   tells us that practice soon renders them relatively easy: chords like N
   P K G are very comfortable under the fingers; perhaps M S  are a
   little trickier but we've only 5 courses to span not the 6 on the
   'modern' guitar. And bear in mind that M is not a million miles from
   the ubiquitous D major chord shape on a g lute which some lute players
   nowadays seem to struggle with but which the Old Ones used with
   abandon.

   Martyn

   M
   --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

 From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
 Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 20:49

But Amat is rather pedantic about his
invention, and eager to prove his right.
I don't know what you mean by that.
   I was thinking of his report of his meeting with the singers in the
   pub. Seems to have been a self-satisfied exraordinary narrow pedantic
   guitarist.
What he says is quite simple and
straightforward and works perfectly well in practice.  Using a barre
   is not that difficult!
   I can assure you that many pupils hate them intensely. It is probably
   not for nothing that the first seven chords of alfabeto, which are used
   the most, have no barre.
Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are
   almost all
in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to
   reflect
daily practice.
   
So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you
   are in.
   I thought we were discussing the practice of amateur guitarists. Easy
   keys without many barre's make the five-course guitar much more
   practical in self-accompaniment than a six-course instrument
   [the rest of this message can only be followed with 'The Lute' 47
   before you, sorry]
   
As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in
   assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed
   in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to
   be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean
   that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open
   courses.
   I know that the transcription is based on a number of assumptions. As
   would be any transcription.
   But why on earth would it have to be mixed style? Most chords in ex 3
   have unfingered courses. Should we suppose that they should all be
   plucked?
There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord
   which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet
   followed by a quaver.
   All played with downstrokes. Interesting...
   In the end, for the harmony it does not make a difference.
In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note
   values the stroke marks have a dual function.   They indicate the
   duration of the notes and make the music easier to read.   A suitable
   notation was not invented overnight.   It evolved - and that is true of
   notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation.   You are simply
   working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources
   should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
   So, in some occasions the stroke signs are not there to indicate
   strokes at all ??
   Lex
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

I can agree whole heartedly with what Martyn says about a barre.   When I 
started to learn the guitar at the advanced age of 30 I was astonished 
(being a violinist) that such a thing was possible and found it difficult to 
do.  Now I can do it easily.


It is simply a matter of practice.   Anyone who is not willing to make the 
effort shouldn't be playing the guitar.


In any case this argument that because stable boys and other amateurs could 
only play chords with open courses is the reason why the 5-course guitar 
didn't acquire a sixth course much sooner isn't very convincing. 
Bartolotti, Corbetta, De Visee and co were not stable boys.


Monica




- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt 
eisenha...@planet.nl

Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:26 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance




  Dear Lex,

   You write below that 'I can assure you that many pupils hate them
  ('barre' chords) intensely.'

  Well some beginners may find them a trouble at first but experience
  tells us that practice soon renders them relatively easy: chords like N
  P K G are very comfortable under the fingers; perhaps M S  are a
  little trickier but we've only 5 courses to span not the 6 on the
  'modern' guitar. And bear in mind that M is not a million miles from
  the ubiquitous D major chord shape on a g lute which some lute players
  nowadays seem to struggle with but which the Old Ones used with
  abandon.

  Martyn

  M
  --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 20:49

   But Amat is rather pedantic about his
   invention, and eager to prove his right.
   I don't know what you mean by that.
  I was thinking of his report of his meeting with the singers in the
  pub. Seems to have been a self-satisfied exraordinary narrow pedantic
  guitarist.
   What he says is quite simple and
   straightforward and works perfectly well in practice.  Using a barre
  is not that difficult!
  I can assure you that many pupils hate them intensely. It is probably
  not for nothing that the first seven chords of alfabeto, which are used
  the most, have no barre.
   Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are
  almost all
   in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to
  reflect
   daily practice.
  
   So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you
  are in.
  I thought we were discussing the practice of amateur guitarists. Easy
  keys without many barre's make the five-course guitar much more
  practical in self-accompaniment than a six-course instrument
  [the rest of this message can only be followed with 'The Lute' 47
  before you, sorry]
  
   As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in
  assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed
  in full. It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to
  be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean
  that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open
  courses.
  I know that the transcription is based on a number of assumptions. As
  would be any transcription.
  But why on earth would it have to be mixed style? Most chords in ex 3
  have unfingered courses. Should we suppose that they should all be
  plucked?
   There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the first chord
  which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted crotchet
  followed by a quaver.
  All played with downstrokes. Interesting...
  In the end, for the harmony it does not make a difference.
   In a situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note
  values the stroke marks have a dual function.   They indicate the
  duration of the notes and make the music easier to read.   A suitable
  notation was not invented overnight.   It evolved - and that is true of
  notation as a whole not just baroque guitar notation.   You are simply
  working on the assumption that what the signs mean in later sources
  should be interpreted in the same way 20-30 years earlier.
  So, in some occasions the stroke signs are not there to indicate
  strokes at all ??
  Lex
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

  --

References

  1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





This is a bit complicated to explain.   When there are what appear to be 
single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should 
be included in the chord or whether they should be played as single 
notes - assuming that this is actually practical.   There are also places 
where it is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord 
and even that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks.


It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music 
in the same way as staff notation or whether you regard it as an 
indication for what the right hand should do.



This could bring the discussion a bit further. The implication is that 
stroke signs could be for strums, even if single notes are concerned.


Lex 





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it.   Here it is
in full.

This is a bit complicated to explain.   When there are what appear to be
single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they should be
included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes -
assuming that this is actually practical.   There are also places where it
is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord and even
that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks.

It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the music
in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an 
indication

for what the right hand should do.

One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente detta 
la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.   He has marked the passing 
notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the first 
line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.  These can't 
actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G can't!). 
Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all with 
upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes with the 
thumb.


The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play 
the notes.   They have a musical significance but no practical use.


I hope that makes sense.

Monica




- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall
mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





  Dear Monica,

  I'm really not sure you're right when you say below  'And while we are
  on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note - that is
  a contradicition in terms.   They may put a strum mark under a single
  note but it is still a single note.'

   In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least part
  of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the
  single note is dissonant.  Foscarini is a good example of this.

  as ever,

  Martyn
  --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10

   Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however,
  who did
   what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in
  songs
   and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype.
  It is what happened to be published.
  This is to
   say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally
  used to
   give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most
  likely
   also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy.
  Feel
   free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would
  be
   helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination,
  but how
   far should that go?
  It would be interesting to know your sources.   The only printed guitar
  book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo,
  although there are some manuscripts.  How many of these have you seen?
  Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just
  suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more
  obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass
  line.
  The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from 1616
  - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean.   Most of the songs
  in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he was a
  guitarist) way of dealing with a 4-3 suspension seems intentional and
  works in practice.
   I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in
  which
   I give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all
  kinds
   of extra notes added.
  As far as Pedrual is concerned I think that you are mistaken in
  assuming that in your second example all four chords are to be strummed
  in full.   It is a very early example of a passage which is intended to
  be in mixed style. The fact that there are stroke marks does not mean
  that the second and third chords are to be strummed including all open
  courses.   There is in fact a dot after the stroke symbol above the
  first chord which you have ignored. It should probably be a dotted
  crotchet followed by a quaver.
  The point is that in very early sources they were experimenting with
  ways of indicating the rhythm and the duration of the notes as well as
  just indicating the chords and the direction of the strums.   In a
  situation like this where there are no bar lines and no note values the
  stroke marks have a dual function

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente 
detta la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.   He has marked the 
passing notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on 
the first line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes. 
These can't actually be included in the chord (at least those following 
chord G can't!). Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3 
is all with upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as 
down-strokes with the thumb.


The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play 
the notes.   They have a musical significance but no practical use.




Another example, the opening of the Aria di Firenze on p. 16, may make 
things even more clear. Foscarini seems to imply to turn back to the M2+ in 
between the melody notes (the melody would be 3-2-3-5-3-5 on the first 
string). It could as well be interpreted as a single strummed line, without 
returning to the full chords at the 3's, which is rather awkward. It is not 
exactly what he says in his rules, but there are more incongruences. Whether 
the thumb should be involved is an open question (I think not).
Foscarini gives single notes with a stroke sign, at ornamental notes, added 
to an alfabeto chord (as a 4-3 on chord I, for example). The most obvious 
explanation would be to repeat the chord together with the note. This is 
what I assumed at the second chord of ex. 5 in my article.


Lex 





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance




The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically play
the notes.   They have a musical significance but no practical use.



Another example, the opening of the Aria di Firenze on p. 16, may make
things even more clear. Foscarini seems to imply to turn back to the M2+
in between the melody notes (the melody would be 3-2-3-5-3-5 on the first
string). It could as well be interpreted as a single strummed line,
without returning to the full chords at the 3's, which is rather awkward.
It is not exactly what he says in his rules, but there are more
incongruences. Whether the thumb should be involved is an open question (I
think not).


This is an important point - because he does often indicate that up-strokes 
should be played with the thumb - which is not very practical - I have tried 
it.



Foscarini gives single notes with a stroke sign, at ornamental notes,
added to an alfabeto chord (as a 4-3 on chord I, for example). The most
obvious explanation would be to repeat the chord together with the note.


This is a separate issue and really you could either play the note single or 
include it in the chord as you repeat it.   It is a matter of personal 
choice.



This is what I assumed at the second chord of ex. 5 in my article.


The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord 
rather than inserting it into the chord - so  it is not comparable with what 
Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it.


There seems to me to be no obvious reason to include the 5th and 1st courses 
in the following chord either.   It makes no sense when strummed.


Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of 
experimenting with the mixed style.


Monica


Lex



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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-02 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the
   thumb in general.  There's nothing more or less impractical about using
   the thumb than any other finger.  It's a matter of practice.  One can
   use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single
   strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings.  Flamenco
   playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit.
   There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the
   discussion.  But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not*
   think about Flamenco?  See the following ...
   [1]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html  --
   Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier
   flamenco artists).  Whether you like or approve of what they're doing,
   the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious.  And
   you might get a view of some thumb work in action.
   Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique.
   [2]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo
   -pulgar
   In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the
   Baroque guitar.  But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you
   make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in
   action.  How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the
   Baroque?  I have no idea whether the study has been done.  If not, it
   should be.  I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar
   class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco.  Also, many
   Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the
   Spanish Baroque dances.  (I would expecially love to see a study of the
   Jacaras...  Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic
   group?  The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and
   tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it?  And it's very similar to
   Las Bularias...  the name coming from burlar, or to joke.)
   I digress.  If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are
   not practical in his specific context, that may be true.  I don't know
   that music.  But my inclination would be to try and take them literally
   and see if I wind up learning a new technique.  I'll say it over and
   over again...  the right hand is far more important than the left.
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   ...
   This is an important point - because he does often indicate that
   up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very
   practical - I have tried it.

   --

References

   1. http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html
   2. 
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo-pulgar


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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


Maybe I didn't make it to the end of the video clip but it seemed he was
using the thumb only to do very rapid passages in down strokes.

What may be more to the point is that it was standard lute technique to play
elaborate passages of single notes alternating the thumb with the first 
finger.


As Foscarini was a lutenist he may have had this in mind.   But if that is 
what

he is indicating in the Corrente he is using the stroke marks in the
tablature to indicate a specific type of pizzicato technique rather than
strumming.   Given that the rest of the tablature is rather chaotic and 
inconsistent this

seems a bit unlikely especially as in the context there is no advantage to
doing it in that way.

Interestingly Bartolotti, in the Ciaccona in his first book (p.50) has
indicated that a short variation should be played in this way - but again  -
he is indicating a pizzicato technique using a different notational device.

As far as the Villano is concerned - I can't imagine why anyone should want 
to play it like that - today or in the past.   But I suppose I am a stick in 
the mud Old Fogey.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:55 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



  I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the
  thumb in general.  There's nothing more or less impractical about using
  the thumb than any other finger.  It's a matter of practice.  One can
  use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on single
  strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings.  Flamenco
  playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit.
  There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the
  discussion.  But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not*
  think about Flamenco?  See the following ...
  [1]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html  --
  Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier
  flamenco artists).  Whether you like or approve of what they're doing,
  the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious.  And
  you might get a view of some thumb work in action.
  Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique.
  [2]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo
  -pulgar
  In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the
  Baroque guitar.  But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if you
  make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in
  action.  How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the
  Baroque?  I have no idea whether the study has been done.  If not, it
  should be.  I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar
  class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco.  Also, many
  Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the
  Spanish Baroque dances.  (I would expecially love to see a study of the
  Jacaras...  Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an ethnic
  group?  The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and
  tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it?  And it's very similar to
  Las Bularias...  the name coming from burlar, or to joke.)
  I digress.  If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates are
  not practical in his specific context, that may be true.  I don't know
  that music.  But my inclination would be to try and take them literally
  and see if I wind up learning a new technique.  I'll say it over and
  over again...  the right hand is far more important than the left.
  cud
__

  From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  ...
  This is an important point - because he does often indicate that
  up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very
  practical - I have tried it.

  --

References

  1. http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html
  2.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-poucededo-pulgar


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



   Dear Monica,

   I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the notes
   after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with a
   bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the answering
   phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a passing
   dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time ago,
   seems to be a hallmark of much of this music.

   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

 From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 8:58

   Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it.   Here it
   is
   in full.
   This is a bit complicated to explain.   When there are what appear to
   be
   single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they
   should be
   included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes
   -
   assuming that this is actually practical.   There are also places where
   it
   is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord and
   even
   that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks.
   It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the
   music
   in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an
   indication
   for what the right hand should do.
   One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente
   detta
   la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.   He has marked the
   passing
   notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the
   first
   line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.  These
   can't
   actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G
   can't!).
   Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all with
   upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes
   with the
   thumb.
   The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically
   play
   the notes.   They have a musical significance but no practical use.
   I hope that makes sense.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall
   [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   
   
  Dear Monica,
   
  I'm really not sure you're right when you say below  'And while we
   are
  on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note -
   that is
  a contradicition in terms.   They may put a strum mark under a
   single
  note but it is still a single note.'
   
   In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least
   part
  of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the
  single note is dissonant.  Foscarini is a good example of this.
   
  as ever,
   
  Martyn
  --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
   
From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Lex Eisenhardt [7]eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist [8]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 17:10
   
   Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is,
   however,
  who did
   what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us
   in
  songs
   and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype.
  It is what happened to be published.
  This is to
   say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least]
   originally
  used to
   give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was
   most
  likely
   also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from
   Italy.
  Feel
   free to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it
   would
  be
   helpful to know the sources. We should indeed use our
   imagination,
  but how
   far should that go?
  It would be interesting to know your sources.   The only printed
   guitar
  book with dances to have survived from before 1620 is Montesardo,
  although there are some manuscripts.  How many of these have you
   seen?
  Nobody is speculating about fantastic harmonic experiments. Just
  suggesting that there are ways of getting round some of the more
  obvious problems of combining a strummed accompaniement with a bass
  line.
  The one source which I have to hand is Sanseverino's songbook from
   1616
  - which I doubt whether you have seen or Alex Dean.   Most of the
   songs
  in it are part songs and at least Sanseverino's (and he

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

   You can find a tablature edition of a fairly large selection of
   Foscarini's pieces on my page at



   [1]www.earlyguitar.ning.com



   It includes the pieces we have mentioned.



   Monica



   --- Original Message -

   From: [2]Chris Despopoulos

   To: [3]Monica Hall

   Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:23 PM

   Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

   Is there an edition of these pieces that I could easily see?  I'd be
   interested to try and get my hands around this example myself...  Or do
   I have to make a purchase?  I don't know Foscarini at all, so maybe
   it's time for me to branch out of Spain...
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall [4]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Chris Despopoulos [5]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 9:46:03 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   Maybe I didn't make it to the end of the video clip but it seemed he
   was
   using the thumb only to do very rapid passages in down strokes.
   What may be more to the point is that it was standard lute technique to
   play
   elaborate passages of single notes alternating the thumb with the first
   finger.
   As Foscarini was a lutenist he may have had this in mind.  But if that
   is
   what
   he is indicating in the Corrente he is using the stroke marks in the
   tablature to indicate a specific type of pizzicato technique rather
   than
   strumming.  Given that the rest of the tablature is rather chaotic and
   inconsistent this
   seems a bit unlikely especially as in the context there is no advantage
   to
   doing it in that way.
   Interestingly Bartolotti, in the Ciaccona in his first book (p.50) has
   indicated that a short variation should be played in this way - but
   again  -
   he is indicating a pizzicato technique using a different notational
   device.
   As far as the Villano is concerned - I can't imagine why anyone should
   want
   to play it like that - today or in the past.  But I suppose I am a
   stick in
   the mud Old Fogey.
   Monica
   - Original Message -
   From: Chris Despopoulos [6]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   To: Vihuelalist [7]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 11:55 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
 I don't know Foscarini's music, but I can say a few things about the
 thumb in general.  There's nothing more or less impractical about
   using
 the thumb than any other finger.  It's a matter of practice.  One
   can
 use the thumb for rapid linear passages with up/down strokes on
   single
 strings, or with down stroke + slur on single strings.  Flamenco
 playing relies on thumb techniques quite a bit.
 There I go again, injecting modern music and technique into the
 discussion.  But how can a modern person play las Jacaras and*not*
 think about Flamenco?  See the following ...
   
   [1][8]http://www.strimoo.com/video/12886663/Jacaras-MySpaceVideos.html
   --
 Christina Pluhar with Pepe Habichuela (one of the world's premier
 flamenco artists).  Whether you like or approve of what they're
   doing,
 the collaboration (what little of it finally occurs) is obvious.
   And
 you might get a view of some thumb work in action.
 Here's a clip that shows some flamenco thumb technique.
   
   [2][9]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x32rdt_flamenco-lesson-le-pouced
   edo
 -pulgar
 In no way am I suggesting this is an appropriate technique for the
 Baroque guitar.  But it shows how elaborate the thumb can be -- if
   you
 make it to the end of the clip you'll see some awesome upstrokes in
 action.  How much of flamenco technique has a direct line to the
 Baroque?  I have no idea whether the study has been done.  If not,
   it
 should be.  I can say that rasgueados I learned in a Baroque guitar
 class are not far removed from rasgueados used in Flamenco.  Also,
   many
 Flamenco song forms rely on the hemiola that's so prevalent in the
 Spanish Baroque dances.  (I would expecially love to see a study of
   the
 Jacaras...  Is the oriental mode used as a way to poke fun at an
   ethnic
 group?  The song is supposed to be humorous, and about the woes and
 tribulations of some poor schleb, isn't it?  And it's very similar
   to
 Las Bularias...  the name coming from burlar, or to joke.)
 I digress.  If you're saying that the upstrokes Foscarini indicates
   are
 not practical in his specific context, that may be true.  I don't
   know
 that music.  But my inclination would be to try and take them
   literally
 and see if I wind up learning a new technique.  I'll say it over and
 over again...  the right hand is far more important than the left.
 cud

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


I'm afraid I don't agree.   It is physically possible to hold Chord M and
play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and play the
4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.   The 5th course stopped at the
3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply be
repeating Chord G.

On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the first
fret whilst holding Chord B.   There are some problems following Chord N on
line 4 as well.

I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style.   What Corbetta says
in 1639 is very relevant here...


Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke marks, 
these  are all intended to be played on the first course [canto] only. And 
they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it is not 
necessary to make any changes to accommodate different fingerings in order 
to play a chord/ letter.  In this way it seems  to me to create a better and 
more delicate effect.




In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st course 
between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it applies more 
generally.




You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other 
circumstances.   What is the point of doing it here.   There is a clear 
melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta 
says.




MOnica




- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 3:18 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





  Dear Monica,

  I'm not sure I agree with you about the Foscarini example: the notes
  after the opening M3 chord can be included as part of a strum with a
  bit of care; similarly those after the G chord (which is the answering
  phrase to the opening). I think it's a question of accepting a passing
  dissonance which, as I believe you also pointed out some time ago,
  seems to be a hallmark of much of this music.

  Martyn
  --- On Thu, 2/9/10, Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:

From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Thursday, 2 September, 2010, 8:58

  Sorry - I sent my previous message before I had completed it.   Here it
  is
  in full.
  This is a bit complicated to explain.   When there are what appear to
  be
  single notes with strum marks it is not always clear whether they
  should be
  included in the chord or whether they should be played as single notes
  -
  assuming that this is actually practical.   There are also places where
  it
  is obvious that the single note can't be included in the chord and
  even
  that it shouldn't be but there are still stroke marks.
  It depends a bit whether you regard the notation as representing the
  music
  in the same way as staff notation does or whether you regard it as an
  indication
  for what the right hand should do.
  One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the Corrente
  detta
  la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.   He has marked the
  passing
  notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on the
  first
  line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.  These
  can't
  actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G
  can't!).
  Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all with
  upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes
  with the
  thumb.
  The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically
  play
  the notes.   They have a musical significance but no practical use.
  I hope that makes sense.
  Monica
  - Original Message -
  From: Martyn Hodgson [1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  To: Lex Eisenhardt [2]eisenha...@planet.nl; Monica Hall
  [3]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [4]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Thursday, September 02, 2010 8:17 AM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
  
  
 Dear Monica,
  
 I'm really not sure you're right when you say below  'And while we
  are
 on the subject please note that you can't strum a single note -
  that is
 a contradicition in terms.   They may put a strum mark under a
  single
 note but it is still a single note.'
  
  In many cases I think the expectation is that one strums at least
  part
 of the chord and so keeps up the underlying harmony EVEN THOUGH the
 single note is dissonant.  Foscarini is a good example of this.
  
 as ever,
  
 Martyn
 --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Monica Hall [5]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
  
   From: Monica Hall [6]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   To: Lex Eisenhardt [7]eisenha...@planet.nl
   Cc: Vihuelalist

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-02 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   Ok...  I have played through the Corrente dette la Favorita, and by and
   large I agree with Monica.  Where I don't agree is when she says:
 One example in Foscarini which I think is significant is the
   Corrente
 detta
 la Favorita on p.60 especially the opening bars.  He has marked the
 passing
 notes following the first chord M3 and those following chord G on
   the
 first
 line as if they were to be strummed with up and down strokes.  These
 can't
 actually be included in the chord (at least those following chord G
 can't!).
   I agree with the above, but not the following...
 Also the sensible way to play those following chord M3  is all with
 upstrokes of the finger and those following chord G as down-strokes
 with the
 thumb.
 The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should physically
 play
 the notes.  They have a musical significance but no practical use.
   I find it most sensible to alternate between the thumb and index for
   these single notes, using the thumb for the typical down-beat of the
   note, and the index finger for the up-beat.  In other words, I'm
   thinking of my hand going up and down in 8th notes, and grab the
   indicated notes where they fall in this strumming motion.  So I would
   say, M3-i-p-i | M3-M3-M3 | G-i-p-i | G-G-B-B | ...
   As I understand it is with the lute, and I know it is when playing
   Chancy's tablatures on the mandore, the up-stroke on a single note is
   very important because it's to be weaker when compared to a
   down-stroke.  And these are to be alternated in relation to the
   rhythmic structure of the piece.  So why would it be different on the
   guitar, unless the situation makes it strictly impossible -- something
   I would be surprised to find in as charming a piece as this one.
   An added thing I found in trying the piece out...  It pays to hold the
   chord as long as possible, even when playing the single note passages.
   But sometimes it pays to let go and prepare for an upcoming passage.
   AND, I found a place where an upstroke of the thumb makes perfect
   sense!  If I say P is a down-stroke of the thumb, and p is an up-stroke
   of the thumb, I play the following in measure 9...  D-p-ma-p | H-G-O.
   I play the D as a rasgueado, strumming on the backs of my nails, and
   the ma is pretty much the same thing with only two fingers.  Also, I
   let go of the D chord as I play the ma, and with the following thumb
   upstroke my left hand is already playing the barre for the upcoming H.
   All of that happened rather quickly, and the right hand just sort of
   fell into place that way.
   Whew...  Sorry if this is over the top.
   For me the bottom line is maintaining the strumming sensation, in my
   mind, and in my hands as much as possible.  Which gets to Monica's last
   statement...  The stroke marks are not there to indicate how you should
   physically play.  True, but they do have a practical use if they keep
   you oriented in the pulse of the music.
   Thanks for pointing to a lovely piece.  If I can get the transition
   from the N7 to the M+5 in measure 26, I'll add it to my regular bag of
   tricks.
   cud
 __

   From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
   To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 10:57:52 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   I'm afraid I don't agree.  It is physically possible to hold Chord M
   and
   play the auxiliary notes but it is not possible to hold Chord G and
   play the
   4th course open or stopped at the 2nd fret.  The 5th course stopped at
   the
   3rd fret has to be played as a single note - otherwise you would simply
   be
   repeating Chord G.
   On the next line down you can't play the 5th course stopped at the
   first
   fret whilst holding Chord B.  There are some problems following Chord N
   on
   line 4 as well.
   I think the whole piece is meant to be in mixed style.  What Corbetta
   says
   in 1639 is very relevant here...
   Note also that when there are single numbers placed below the stroke
   marks, these  are all intended to be played on the first course [canto]
   only. And they are played like this so that it is easier and so that it
   is not necessary to make any changes to accommodate different
   fingerings in order to play a chord/ letter.  In this way it seems  to
   me to create a better and more delicate effect.
   In this instance he is referring to single notes played on the 1st
   course between chords - because the music is all in alfabeto but it
   applies more generally.
   You wouldn't repeat the chord against every passing note in any other
   circumstances.  What is the point of doing it here.  There is a clear
   melodic line - it creates a better and more delicate effect as Corbetta
   says.
   MOnica

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-02 Thread wikla

Dear baroque guitarists,

I just am so happy that the life to us, lutenists, is so much simpler than
it seems to be to you! Not too much trouble with the bourdons and
octaves. ;-)

And we have more or less the basses there, too. 

Happy playing and strumming!  :)

Arto



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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


Foscarini gives single notes with a stroke sign, at ornamental notes,
added to an alfabeto chord (as a 4-3 on chord I, for example). The most
obvious explanation would be to repeat the chord together with the note.


This is a separate issue and really you could either play the note single 
or include it in the chord as you repeat it.   It is a matter of personal 
choice.



This is what I assumed at the second chord of ex. 5 in my article.


The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord 
rather than inserting it into the chord - so  it is not comparable with 
what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it.


There seems to me to be no obvious reason to include the 5th and 1st 
courses in the following chord either.   It makes no sense when strummed.


Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of 
experimenting with the mixed style.


Monica


Lex



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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





[the message from one minute ago was caused by a self -willed mouse, please
ignore]

This is an important point - because he does often indicate that 
up-strokes should be played with the thumb - which is not very 
practical - I have tried it.


In this context? How does he indicate that?


The problem there is that you are introducing the fourth after the chord 
rather than inserting it into the chord - so  it is not comparable with 
what Foscarini does - which is to introduce the 4th and then resolve it


Foscarini does that all the time.


Pedruil is interesting because it does seem to be a very early example of 
experimenting with the mixed style.


I see no good reason

Lex







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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Hello Lex,

With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 
which is below the other voices. This raises the question if his remark 
about the D minor chord has anything to do with basso continuo.

In that case, do you have any ideas on what Sanz is on about regarding the D 
minor with of without bourdons? 

On a totally unrelated note, after seeing the discussion here sparked by your 
Youtube videos, I managed to get your Bartolotti CD (The suites from the second 
book) and I am blown away by both the music and the performance.

Regards 
Peter



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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 

I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely shows 
BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con 
las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the 
other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for 
Sanz.

Peter




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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

I forgot to add that, given that rule 1 says in this one [the punteado] the 
thumb strikes the number that corresponds to the base, the plucked versions of 
the examples definitely seem to call for bourdons on 4 and 5, it seems somewhat 
unlikely that Sanz did not have bourdones in mind also for the strummed 
versions without mentioning that very important difference.



- Original Message -
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010 11:58:25 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 

I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely shows 
BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala con 
las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; the 
other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility for 
Sanz.

Peter




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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


Thank you for your kind words, Peter.
Yes, you are right of course. The very first example gives the alfabeto 
chords and the bass notes to which they belong. We find similar instructions 
in almost every tutor from the time. But after having done that Sanz gives 
many examples in staff and tablature for which alfabeto would fall short. He 
makes a distinction between the rasgueado method and the far more elaborate 
punteado. What I didn't find is any reference to playing (completely) 
rasgueado/alfabeto together with a bass instrument. Considering the nature 
of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies, this seems not all too 
obvious.

Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance





With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position,


I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely 
shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures

in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala 
con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:


All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; 
the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.


So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility 
for Sanz.


Peter





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Lex,

The more I think about it I tend to agree that it is not obvious that Sanz' 
comment about the D minor chord in 4/6 refers to basso continuo. Which brings 
me back to question that has been nagging me for a while, what on earth is Sanz 
on about?? Any ideas?

Peter 

- Original Message -
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
To: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010 12:16:59 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance

Thank you for your kind words, Peter.
Yes, you are right of course. The very first example gives the alfabeto 
chords and the bass notes to which they belong. We find similar instructions 
in almost every tutor from the time. But after having done that Sanz gives 
many examples in staff and tablature for which alfabeto would fall short. He 
makes a distinction between the rasgueado method and the far more elaborate 
punteado. What I didn't find is any reference to playing (completely) 
rasgueado/alfabeto together with a bass instrument. Considering the nature 
of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies, this seems not all too 
obvious.
Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com
To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance




With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position,

I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely 
shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que 
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala 
con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is 
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters; 
the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility 
for Sanz.

Peter






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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-01 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings.  I'm sure we
   can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the
   time that we can uses as guides.  Monica and Lex, you both use words
   like perhaps and likely...
   I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an
   overarching impediment.  The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and
   Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them.  Also, 12-string
   guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into
   Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's.  (I don't agree with
   excluding the living relatives from the discussion.)  If the musical
   requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and
   fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the
   requirements...  Or even adding on another instrument joined at the
   hip.  I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course
   instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities.
   I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense.
   There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured
   in this issue.  The most difficult intervals to play on the modern
   guitar are close intervals.  Scordaturae exist to address this issue
   because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or
   expression.  Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue.  But
   with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale.  I see this as a
   practical issue, not a historical one.  The simple fact is, I can play
   and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot
   play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa.  The issue is
   historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things at
   different times.  But it's the practice that interests me.
   I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning scheme
   we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant tuning.
   Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when
   strumming, but it doesn't add anything new.  So as long as players
   think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest in
   a 6-course instrument.  That interest can only arise when they think in
   terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension is
   necessarily either up or down in pitch.  It so happens for the guitar
   it was down.  But to me it indicates that at some point the practice
   shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using
   the extended range of bass strings.  And I'm sure that shift occurred
   before guitars became single-strung.  I'm also sure it did not occur
   over night.
   In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just
   loud.  Or does it mean you get to choose?  When talking about a
   transition in practice and construction, I'm sure you can argue for
   whichever you feel is most appropriate for the situation.  You could
   use a timeline to assign probability to one approach or another.  But
   that is a false friend, because even Darwin would tell you that
   innovation isn't necessarily a smooth continuum.  We can use musical
   theory of the era, but that was also in transition -- I just learned
   about a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi that was not unlike
   something you'd see on this forum.  It was all about  transitions in
   taste, theory, and composition.  What other guides do we have?
   Physically, we're pretty much the same as people of the era, and our
   instruments are fairly close replicas.  We can use practical
   limitations to guide us as well.  In other words, what can you do
   convincingly on the instrument?
   I will add that for process and flow studies, the transitions are very
   interesting.  The boundary between still and boiling water, the eddies
   and currents that arise before a flow becomes turbulent, the explosion
   of forms when bicycles were first invented, or during the Cambrian
   explosion of life forms...
   By the way, I see no incompatibility in the 150 years it took for a
   6-course instrument to become the norm.  How long did it take for 5
   course guitars to come on the scene?  Also, I believe there are
   contemporary examples of 4, 5, and 6 course guitar-like instruments --
   their popularity rests on the popularity of their reportoir at least as
   much as the problems or advantages of playing them.  The 4-course
   guitar is in use today in Portugal, the Pacific, and in lots of ukulele
   clubs sprinkled across the US.  I think Mexico has an example, and even
   uses the old bridge style.  Maybe these are decadant relative of the
   original 4-course guitar, but my point is, we haven't killed it yet...
   the evolution is still happening many centuries later.  So 150 years
   don't put me off in a terrible way.
   cud
 __

When

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


There are a couple of points here.

First of all, Sanz's music may be less complex than Bartolotti's, although I 
would question this assumption.   But the main point is that his book is 
intended as an instruction book with at least some material for beginners.


The other point is that all the Italian (and Spanish) works to which Sanz 
refers all include some information on how to accompany a bass line and it 
is this context that he mentions them.   He is saying is that none of them 
include as detailed a discussion of the subject as he does.


Bartolotti does not include any instructions on how to accompany in either 
of his books so there is no reason to mention him.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 9:18 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance


However his reasons for recommending the re-entrant tuning for elaborate 
solo music like that of Bartolotti


Sanz's solo music is by far not as elaborate as Bartolotti's. Most of 
Sanz's pieces in the 'modern style' (not the Italianate passacalles) are 
charming little tunes exclusively to be played punteado. Nothing like the 
polyphony or the rich battuto-pizzicato textures of a Bartolotti. For 
Sanz's folk pieces re-entrant tuning seems ok. Bartolott's name does not 
appear on the summary of guitar composers in Sanz's introduction, and he 
may not have been familiar with this music.




are all to do with the kind of strings available.


Plain gut strings were used for the bass on most plucked instruments. It 
seems odd to suppose that the (supposed inferior) quality of bourdon 
strings has been a reason to move over to re-entrant stringing on the 
guitar.


For a contrasting view, perhaps I may recommend my article 'Bourdons as 
usual', in the last issue of  'The Lute' (47), obtainable from The Lute 
Society. There you'll find Monica's responses as well. There are no 
electronic versions available, I'm afraid.



When it comes to adding the sixth course you have to ask why it took 
nearly
150 years before this development took place.   The most likely 
explanation
is that for both practical reasons to do with stringing  and because 
re-entrant tuning has some intrinsic benefits it usually had a re-entrant

tuning.


The most practical reason to not use a 6 string/course instrument is 
perhaps chord strumming.
The first seven chords of guitar alfabeto, plus the I, O and P chords, all 
need no more than three fingers, while frequent harmonies (like E, A or 
F-both major and minor) are impossible to play without barré's on a 
six-course instrument tuned in G, at least if we wish to include all 
courses. It raises the problem of strumming over a limited number of 
strings, which introduces theoretical difficulties for the player.


With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the 
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his 
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance 
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only 
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position, 
which is below the other voices. This raises the question if his remark 
about the D minor chord has anything to do with basso continuo.
Besides, most bass instruments such as the bass viol and the theorbo can 
produce the D below the A (the fifth course bourdon) of the guitar. When 
playing together with a strummed guitar with bourdons, which is not a 
situation described by Sanz (nor by any other writer), the fundamental 
bass can still be taken care of on the bass line instrument.


Lex



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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Apart from the general information he provides, I would doubt if the actual 
works and the basso continuo are for beginners. Bartolotti has also given 
information for beginners (!) but hasn't included any instructions for 
accompanying. Neither has Pellegrini. Of Lorenzo Fardino, also on the list, 
we just don't know.


Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance



There are a couple of points here.

First of all, Sanz's music may be less complex than Bartolotti's, although 
I would question this assumption.   But the main point is that his book is 
intended as an instruction book with at least some material for beginners.


The other point is that all the Italian (and Spanish) works to which Sanz 
refers all include some information on how to accompany a bass line and it 
is this context that he mentions them.   He is saying is that none of them 
include as detailed a discussion of the subject as he does.


Bartolotti does not include any instructions on how to accompany in either 
of his books so there is no reason to mention him.


Monica






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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

[Perhaps] we should have a closer look at the early use, 1600 - 1620, of 
the five-course guitar and the choice of alfabeto chords that we find there. 
The number of barre's is very limited, and there seems to be a clear 
preference for 'open' chords, including unfingered strings. The other point 
I mentioned is the theoretical complication of leaving out the strings that 
do not belong to the chord (like for instance the sixth string in a D 
chord), for which alfabeto has no sign. Another problem is the very frequent 
G minor chord, which would be far more difficult to make than it is now 
(letter O).
Of course, in a later stage, when the guitar had reached great popularity, 
the barre became part of the guitar technique.

Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Despopoulos despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:48 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance




  I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings.  I'm sure we
  can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the
  time that we can uses as guides.  Monica and Lex, you both use words
  like perhaps and likely...
  I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an
  overarching impediment.  The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and
  Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them.  Also, 12-string
  guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into
  Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's.  (I don't agree with
  excluding the living relatives from the discussion.)  If the musical
  requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and
  fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the
  requirements...  Or even adding on another instrument joined at the
  hip.  I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course
  instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing capabilities.
  I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense.
  There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is captured
  in this issue.  The most difficult intervals to play on the modern
  guitar are close intervals.  Scordaturae exist to address this issue
  because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or
  expression.  Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue.  But
  with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale.  I see this as a
  practical issue, not a historical one.  The simple fact is, I can play
  and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot
  play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa.  The issue is
  historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things at
  different times.  But it's the practice that interests me.
  I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning scheme
  we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant tuning.
  Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when
  strumming, but it doesn't add anything new.  So as long as players
  think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest in
  a 6-course instrument.  That interest can only arise when they think in
  terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension is
  necessarily either up or down in pitch.  It so happens for the guitar
  it was down.  But to me it indicates that at some point the practice
  shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using
  the extended range of bass strings.  And I'm sure that shift occurred
  before guitars became single-strung.  I'm also sure it did not occur
  over night.
  In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just
  loud.  Or does it mean you get to choose?  When talking about a
  transition in practice and construction, I'm sure you can argue for
  whichever you feel is most appropriate for the situation.  You could
  use a timeline to assign probability to one approach or another.  But
  that is a false friend, because even Darwin would tell you that
  innovation isn't necessarily a smooth continuum.  We can use musical
  theory of the era, but that was also in transition -- I just learned
  about a flame war between Monteverdi and Artusi that was not unlike
  something you'd see on this forum.  It was all about  transitions in
  taste, theory, and composition.  What other guides do we have?
  Physically, we're pretty much the same as people of the era, and our
  instruments are fairly close replicas.  We can use practical
  limitations to guide us as well.  In other words, what can you do
  convincingly on the instrument?
  I will add that for process and flow studies, the transitions are very
  interesting.  The boundary between still and boiling water, the eddies
  and currents that arise before a flow becomes turbulent, the explosion
  of forms when bicycles were first invented, or during the Cambrian
  explosion of life forms...
  By the way, I see

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance




Considering the nature of alfabeto, a system with only triadic harmonies,
this seems not all too obvious.


I don't think this is as obvious as you might think.   Triadic harmony is 
much more flexible that you seem to think.


There is an interesting example in Alex Dean's dissertation which I can't 
quite put my finger on right now where he show how  you can accompany the 
minor 7th on the second degree of the scale with a basic triad and in fact 
he says that Nigel North does just that. (I hope I have remembered it 
right).


The point about triadic harmony is that it includes only the basic notes. 
But you can add to this e.g. adding  7ths to a chord does not alter its 
basic notes.  And you can use a basic triad to accompany a 7th in the bass.


Another thing is the 4-3 suspension.   If the alfabeto books are anything to 
go on it was regarded as acceptable to play a basic triad when the voice 
part has the 4-3 bit and it is quite effective.   It may indeed explain why 
Corbetta (and Bartolotti and Foscarini) is fond of doing this.  I know that 
Milanuzzi explains how to do it properly and of course more experienced 
players would have been able to adapt the chords by including the 4th or the 
7th and to create a mixed accompaniment.


The fact that Sanz doesn't explicitly describe  everything doesn't mean that 
he intended it to be done in the simplest possible way.   If you read 
everything that Doisi de Velasco says it is obvious that the acompaniment 
may be strummed but you can combine the two.


Also it is not necessary to reproduce the chords or the accompaniment in the 
same inversions as the bass part indicates.   Just one example from Granata 
1659 p.159.the 4th bar of the  top line  -  he has put the 4-3 suspension on 
the 5th course and there is nothing wrong with that.


You seem to have an exraordinary narrow pedantic approach to most things 
which seems to reflect the environment in which you work rather than what 
players really did or do in practice.


M




- Original Message - 
From: Peter Kooiman pe...@crispu.com

To: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] stringing and performance





With regard to what Sanz says about strumming the D minor chord and the
resulting 4/6 position (the A in the bass): a considerable portion of his
text is about how to play basso continuo on the guitar, and in accordance
with his advice to use bourdons for that his tablature examples show only
plucked textures, so that the bass will always be in its proper position,


I just re-read the Documentos y advertencia generales, Sanz definitely
shows BOTH strumming and plucked textures
in his examples. The Regla primera removes any doubt saying:

tienen todos los puntos dos acompañamientos, para que escojas el que
quisieres; El uno es de Rasgueado, con toda la Guitarra, y este se señala
con las letras; El otro de Punteado, que se señala con los numeros.:

All have two accompaniments, so that you choose the one you want: One is
rasgueado, with the whole guitar, and this one is indicated with letters;
the other one is punteado, wich is indicaterd with numbers.

So it would seem strumming in basso continuo was definitely a possibility
for Sanz.

Peter





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

2010-09-01 Thread Chris Despopoulos

   [It's likely] I would not argue that point at all.  I'd say it
   indicates that there was not a physical limitation of the hand in
   taking on a more varied repertoire. It's the later stage I'm talking
   about, in comparison to the earlier stage.  The theoretical
   difficulties were overcome, and the barre was accepted technique.  Sanz
   includes it liberally in his laberinto.  Likewise, if the advantage of
   6 strings had been sufficiently recognized at the time, I believe any
   theoretical impediments would have been overcome.  Well, indeed that
   did happen -- it just took a long time, and it seems to have coincided
   with (or at least reinforced) hearing the bass in the 4, 5, and 6th
   courses.
   cud
 __

   From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
   To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 7:35:11 AM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   [Perhaps] we should have a closer look at the early use, 1600 - 1620,
   of the five-course guitar and the choice of alfabeto chords that we
   find there. The number of barre's is very limited, and there seems to
   be a clear preference for 'open' chords, including unfingered strings.
   The other point I mentioned is the theoretical complication of leaving
   out the strings that do not belong to the chord (like for instance the
   sixth string in a D chord), for which alfabeto has no sign. Another
   problem is the very frequent G minor chord, which would be far more
   difficult to make than it is now (letter O).
   Of course, in a later stage, when the guitar had reached great
   popularity, the barre became part of the guitar technique.
   Lex
   - Original Message - From: Chris Despopoulos
   [1]despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com
   To: Vihuelalist [2]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 12:48 PM
   Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   
 I like thinking about the evolution from 4 to 6 strings.  I'm sure
   we
 can only speculate, unless there are explicit statements made at the
 time that we can uses as guides.  Monica and Lex, you both use words
 like perhaps and likely...
 I'm not convinced that the requirement of barre chords is an
 overarching impediment.  The 5-course alfabeto includes barres, and
 Sanz (for all his simplicity) often calls for them.  Also, 12-string
 guitars exist -- modern ones as well as those reaching back into
 Mexico's past -- with music that includes barre's.  (I don't agree
   with
 excluding the living relatives from the discussion.)  If the musical
 requirements of a piece ask for more strings, we have many and
 fantastic examples of builders adding on strings to meet the
 requirements...  Or even adding on another instrument joined at the
 hip.  I don't see an argument for a physical impediment to 6-course
 instruments, either in construction, strings, or playing
   capabilities.
 I see the impediment as conceptual, and not in any pejorative sense.
 There's a practical tension between range and voicing that is
   captured
 in this issue.  The most difficult intervals to play on the modern
 guitar are close intervals.  Scordaturae exist to address this issue
 because these voicings can be essential to a certain mood or
 expression.  Re-entrant tuning is one way to address this issue.
   But
 with re-entrance, you sacrifice range on the scale.  I see this as a
 practical issue, not a historical one.  The simple fact is, I can
   play
 and compose music on a guitar tuned in the Sanz style that I cannot
 play or compose on a modern guitar -- and vis versa.  The issue is
 historical to the extent that practice emphasized different things
   at
 different times.  But it's the practice that interests me.
 I also believe (perhaps it is likely) that with the tuning
   scheme
 we have for the guitar, 5 courses is the limit for re-entrant
   tuning.
 Any more becomes redundant -- you have to worry about it when
 strumming, but it doesn't add anything new.  So as long as players
 think in terms of re-entrant tuning, they will not have any interest
   in
 a 6-course instrument.  That interest can only arise when they think
   in
 terms of extending the range of the instrument, and that extension
   is
 necessarily either up or down in pitch.  It so happens for the
   guitar
 it was down.  But to me it indicates that at some point the practice
 shifted from using the close intervals of re-entrant tuning to using
 the extended range of bass strings.  And I'm sure that shift
   occurred
 before guitars became single-strung.  I'm also sure it did not occur
 over night.
 In any event, you have to ask whether a bordon means bass, or just
 loud.  Or does it mean you get to choose?  When talking about

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Yes, Alexander Dean's dissertation is a very good read. You can download it
here:
https://urresearch.rochester.edu/institutionalPublicationPublicView.action;jsessionid=FEA663FAC81002C4A93F225435EB74D8?institutionalItemVersionId=10524

As I understand it, certain chords (dimished 7th, for instance) cannot be
produced within the frame of alfabeto. These chords were replaced by
alfabeto chords of another degree (ii - I instead of the vii dim -I, or the
L chord instead of a E flat major, sorry for being so technical). Thus,
playing together with an instrumentalist who performs literally from the
bass this would lead to harmonic clashes. Dean goes so far to say that these
clashes maybe were sought to get a richer pre-cadential tension. I think we
can't tell. Perhaps they were just alternatives. You'll find these at p.240.

The point about triadic harmony is that it includes only the basic notes.
But you can add to this e.g. adding 7ths to a chord does not alter its
basic notes. And you can use a basic triad to accompany a 7th in the
bass.

I'm quite sure I said that for better understanding we should we should look
at the _early_ stage (so, not at Valdambrini or Corbetta).
Of course you can add whatever you like. The question is, however, who did
what. And when. The basis of early alfabeto, as it has come to us in songs
and dances from 1600 - 1620, is predominantly very stereotype. This is to
say that [probably] alfabeto and cifras were [at least] originally used to
give a hand for remembering the chords to your tune. This was most likely
also its function in the printed villanelle repertoire from Italy. Feel free
to speculate about fantastic harmonic experiments, but it would be helpful
to know the sources. We should indeed use our imagination, but how far
should that go?
I may bring to mind my 'dissonance' article (also in The Lute 47) in which I
give the example of the manuscript of Pedruil (c.1614), with all kinds of
extra notes added.

The fact that Sanz doesn't explicitly describe everything doesn't mean
that he intended it to be done in the simplest possible way. If you read
everything that Doisi de Velasco says it is obvious that the acompaniment
may be strummed but you can combine the two.

again, both are much later

You seem to have an exraordinary narrow pedantic approach to most things
which seems to reflect the environment in which you work rather than what
players really did or do in practice.

[perhaps] I'd better ignore that

Lex

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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the 24 
were used in practice. The _early_  sources we have (Of cifras: Briceno, for 
instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a limited selection, 
mainly in first position.


Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain 
where it all began.   Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many 
of which are played with a barre.


Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct chords 
to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't accommodate 
more complex chromatic harmony.


Monica







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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

[perhaps] for eclectic guitar?
L

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt 
eisenha...@planet.nl

Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 3:27 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

  I wouldn't have considered Valdambrini 1646/47 a late source and he
  certainly peppers many pieces with movable alfabeto shapes in all
  positions up to and including thos requiring a 'barre' on the 9th
  fret.  Without a detailed search I noted the following alfabeto shapes
  used used in this high position: M N P S H K G

  In his table to Book 2 (p 39) he even shows G H M S with a 'barre' on
  the 10th and 11the fret! But I couldn't see he used higher than the 9th
  in his pieces.

  MH

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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


They were certainly used by Amat   and by anyone who read his book.   That
is the whole point of his various tables - to allow you to transpose pieces 
and if necessary when accompanying a song.


And Millioni also includes a table

Tavola delle lettere corrispondenti con le quali ciascuno se ne puol servire 
in trasmutar sonare da una lettera all'altra . . .


This shows all the different letters in different positions on the 
fingerboard all of which involve using a barre so that you can transpose all 
the basic pieces in the book into different keys.


As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a few 
feature all the time in Millioni's books.  And earlier in Montesardo.


The fact that the some of the alfabeto song books do include a table giving 
the full alfabeto does suggest that players may have used these when 
transposing the accompaniment into a more convenient key.


All these sources are earlier than Brizeno - whose book in any case is 
intended for complete beginners.


M

- Original Message - 
From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:45 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the 24
were used in practice. The _early_  sources we have (Of cifras: Briceno,
for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a limited
selection, mainly in first position.

Lex


- Original Message - 
From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk

To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
Cc: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance



The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain
where it all began.   Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24, many
of which are played with a barre.

Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct
chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't
accommodate more complex chromatic harmony.

Monica







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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance

Quite a few of the pieces in Foscarini's third book (1632)  include passage 
just shifting up and down the fingerboard - usually with chord N and chord 
M.


Monica

- Original Message - 
From: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk

To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu; Lex Eisenhardt
eisenha...@planet.nl
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:27 PM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





  I wouldn't have considered Valdambrini 1646/47 a late source and he
  certainly peppers many pieces with movable alfabeto shapes in all
  positions up to and including thos requiring a 'barre' on the 9th
  fret.  Without a detailed search I noted the following alfabeto shapes
  used used in this high position: M N P S H K G

  In his table to Book 2 (p 39) he even shows G H M S with a 'barre' on
  the 10th and 11the fret! But I couldn't see he used higher than the 9th
  in his pieces.

  MH
  --- On Wed, 1/9/10, Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl wrote:

From: Lex Eisenhardt eisenha...@planet.nl
Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
To: Vihuelalist vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu
Date: Wednesday, 1 September, 2010, 13:45

  What we don't know [but can think of nevertheless], is how many of the
  24 were used in practice. The _early_  sources we have (Of cifras:
  Briceno, for instance. Of alfabeto: many) generally make use of just a
  limited selection, mainly in first position.
  Lex
  - Original Message - From: Monica Hall
  [1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  To: Martyn Hodgson [2]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  Cc: Vihuelalist [3]vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 2:38 PM
  Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance
   The barre certainly was an integral part of guitar technique in Spain
  where it all began.   Amat's table of chords includes the whole 24,
  many of which are played with a barre.
  
   Also his table in Chapter 8 does enable you to work out the correct
  chords to strum for the most usual situations although it doesn't
  accommodate more complex chromatic harmony.
  
   Monica
  
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at
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  --

References

  1. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
  2.
http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  3. http://uk.mc263.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=vihu...@cs.dartmouth.edu
  4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance





They were certainly used by Amat   and by anyone who read his book.   That
is the whole point of his various tables - to allow you to transpose 
pieces and if necessary when accompanying a song.


It's not my wish to deny that the trick of transposing by using barre chords 
was completely unknown. But Amat is rather pedantic about his invention, and 
eager to prove his right.




And Millioni also includes a table


Still, Millioni (1627) is later than the period I was thinking of


Tavola delle lettere corrispondenti con le quali ciascuno se ne puol 
servire in trasmutar sonare da una lettera all'altra . . .


This shows all the different letters in different positions on the 
fingerboard all of which involve using a barre so that you can transpose 
all the basic pieces in the book into different keys.



Yes, similar to Amat's. The question I tried to put forward is if it weren't 
practical in everyday use (for a stable lad) to have a five-course 
instrument to strum on, instead of a six-course (a vihuela?). To play and 
sing the sort of tunes we find with Bricenjo.



As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a 
few feature all the time in Millioni's books.  And earlier in Montesardo.


Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are almost all 
in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to reflect 
daily practice.


Transposing may have been for a more advanced level.

Lex





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance


It's not my wish to deny that the trick of transposing by using barre
chords was completely unknown. But Amat is rather pedantic about his
invention, and eager to prove his right.


I don't know what you mean by that.   What he says is quite simple and
straightforward and works perfectly well in practice.  Using a barre is not 
that difficult!



Still, Millioni (1627) is later than the period I was thinking of


All surviving copies of Millioni's book belong to later editions.  The
earliest is Quarta impressione del primo, secondo, et terzo libro.

Presumably there had been three previous printing of this compilation and
all three books would have appeared separately earlier.

 As far as using a barre is concerned Chords G, H, M and N, to name but a

few feature all the time in Millioni's books.  And earlier in Montesardo.


Indeed. But if we consider the keys the dances are in, they are almost all
in G major, G minor, D major, D minor and C major. That seems to reflect
daily practice.


So..if you are just dancing it doesn't matter what key you are in.

The keys of the songs in the song books I have seen  are mostly in keys with 
no sharps or one flat.   This is because the singers read them according to 
the solisation symbols.   It doesn't necessarily indicate pitch  literally.


Transposing may have been for a more advanced level.


Well - even stable boys may have wanted a bit of variety from time to time.

M


Lex





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[VIHUELA] Re: stringing and performance