Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Adrian Abraham]

On Wednesday, May 8, 2002, at 07:10 AM, Brian Smith wrote:

> that freak ME out!  C'mon, spill the beans!
> -Brian

Another yarn... from the other side of the planet,

in my room I have 6 pcs and 5 Macs, not many Vintage though,

iP3-800 - Win2k
AMDk6-500 - Win98se
iP200MMX - FreeBSD
iP100 - HardDiskless - PicoBSD off a floppy
i486 - Win3.11 - Stand for my dead Quadra 660AV
Thinkpad - Win98se - for long trips away

And for some real fun

PowerMac G3/233 - Beige - OSX/OS9 - wants a G4 and more Ram :)
PowerMac 7300/200 - OSX/OS9
LC III - OS7.6.1
Quadra 660AV - unstable motherboard :( - Hope to save this one day.
PowerBook 5300cs - OS8.1 - for short trips away

2 more macs are away at our home across the South China Sea

PowerMac 7200/90 - OS8.6
LC575 - OS8.1

Don't want to risk damaging the 575 whilst shipping it here.

The P3, AMDK6, P200, G3, 7300, LC III, Thinkpad and PowerBook are all 
networked on either BNC or UTP via a 3Com Hub, the P3 serves out the Net 
to everyone via a 56k USR Courier modem and a software router.
'
Pardon the Brag :)
--
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Adrian
PowerMac 7300/200 OSX 10.1.3


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Re: It's not Hardware.....

[Terry Mathews]

> Why is it, then, that Linux and BSD can run on almost EVERY Mac and
 cough> 386 and up?
>
> Not complaining or anything, just an observation.

Well, EVERY Mac isn't really every Mac. It pretty much requires a 68030 or
at least a 68020+PMU, as well as FPU. On the Mac end, the PMMU is required
for the VM.

On the PC end, it requires the 386 Protected mode to run, due to the way
UNIXes seperate processes.

Food for thought.

Terry


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Re: It's not Hardware.....

[CP Jacobs]

Just throwing this out for discussion...

Why is it, then, that Linux and BSD can run on almost EVERY Mac and  386 and up?

Not complaining or anything, just an observation.

Chris



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Re: It's not Hardware

[Michael J Flaherty]

> How well does mac on linux run for you ?

Pretty well really.  My only criticism would be that video is somewhat slower 
than on Mac OS.  I have a Nexus 128, on which I have both acceleration and 
DRI working under Linux, so I guess that this is as good as it gets on my 
machine, at least for now.

MOL is pre-installed with at least YDL 2.1 and 2.2.  I think you have to 
compile it for Mandrake ppc, but I'm not sure... maybe there's an RPM.  

Just run molvconfig as root, select your resolutions and you're all set.

Also, I've found that my sound doesn't work with MOL (it's fine in Linux 
itself) on my machine.  I haven't put any effort into finding out why since I 
don't really need it.
  
Don't wanna get anyone too excited by discussing Linux on a PPC on this list.

Happy to continue the discussion on the LEM Max list :)  

MJF

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Re: It's not hardware

[Darren]

Michael J Flaherty wrote:

>>>YDL screams on it though.  OS X' s got an uphill battle to best it.
>>>
>
>Darren wrote:
>
>>Tried YDL, oh hmm, whats it good for, what does it scream doing? wheres
>>the support for all apple ethernet cards. God, its old. Why run X on a
>>7300? with a few decent free linux realease out there supporting mac's.
>>Oh, thats right, no idea with cli.
>>
>
>Not to engage in an OT flame war but...
>
A OT discussion doesn't have to be a flame war. I'm happy to hear 
opinions about anything including how wrong I am..

>YDL 2.2 was released about a month ago.  It's much easier to install than 
>Mandrake 8.2., which uses a problematic Apple Script.
>
Manual config, rename whichever config suits you in the settings folder 
to "BootX Settings" and copy to your prefs folder. Check options in 
bootx, then use the mesh.o driver for scsi access on 7300.

>Really, I can do everything I want with it, Web, email, print, run a 
>full-service, powerful office suite, scan, edit photos, burn CD's, watch 
>DVD's ( if I had a DVD for my 7300, that is).   What more would you want ?
>
I did note on one post that I had made a mistake about YDL and that my 
comparsion was based on a older version. I have since downloaded the 2 
versions I was missing and will install 2.2 after I finish testing MDK.
I'm fairly happy with MDK, I seem to have a naste keymap bug which is a 
prob, no 3dfx support is a problem also, haven't got to firewire yet but 
everything else is good. As the pc version is installed on the doze box, 
I figured it was a good place to start.
How well does mac on linux run for you?

>Except for the ability to run IE natively,  OS X offers me nothing compelling 
>for 100 or so odd dollars.It has an uphill battle because of its cost.
>
wasn't there a hack for the 10.1 update?

>Don't get me wrong though.  I love my IIsi and will continue to use it with 
>7.1 for years, I hope.
>
I'm fond of my lem's my classics are soon to expand :) and one nice 
lc475 and a appleIIe.

>>With so many XP experts on this vintage mac list its no wonder microsoft
>>does so well.
>>
>Dunno nuttin' about no XP.
>
No compelling reason to bother with XP.



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Re: It's not Hardware

[Dean]

>I don't know if this translates to more sales for new Macs. I would
>suspect they would be less likely to dismiss Macs as an alternative.

I just read some survey results (and I can't even remember them)
But they are that something like 45% of PeeCee users would be happy
to consider a Mac as there next computer.  Only 5% of those surveyed
were adamant about sticking with Wintel.  If only I could remember 
where I saw that.  Oh well...

Peace,
Dean

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Re: It's not hardware

[Michael J Flaherty]

On Thursday 09 May 2002 11:54, you wrote:
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 10:48:24 +1000
> From: Darren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: It's not Hardware
>
> Michael J Flaherty wrote:

> >
> >YDL screams on it though.  OS X' s got an uphill battle to best it.
>

Darren wrote:
> Tried YDL, oh hmm, whats it good for, what does it scream doing? wheres
> the support for all apple ethernet cards. God, its old. Why run X on a
> 7300? with a few decent free linux realease out there supporting mac's.
> Oh, thats right, no idea with cli.

Not to engage in an OT flame war but...

YDL 2.2 was released about a month ago.  It's much easier to install than 
Mandrake 8.2., which uses a problematic Apple Script.

Really, I can do everything I want with it, Web, email, print, run a 
full-service, powerful office suite, scan, edit photos, burn CD's, watch 
DVD's ( if I had a DVD for my 7300, that is).   What more would you want ?

Except for the ability to run IE natively,  OS X offers me nothing compelling 
for 100 or so odd dollars.It has an uphill battle because of its cost.

Don't get me wrong though.  I love my IIsi and will continue to use it with 
7.1 for years, I hope.

Quark and a *good* pdf distiller like Acrobat for Linux would be nice, but I 
can run those via Mac-on-Linux when needed.

> With so many XP experts on this vintage mac list its no wonder microsoft
> does so well.

Dunno nuttin' about no XP.

MJF

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Re: It's not Hardware

[Mark Benson]

>Problem is most of 'em had it 10 years ago and that's what they think the
>Mac OS still is :(

It was until March 2001, bar a few touch ups and improvements. I'm 
still sure I'd never have gotten as enthusiastic about Macs if it 
wasn't for OS X.

>Heck, if we all thought XP was the same as Win 3.1, we'd hate Windoze too.
>Not that XP is much *better*, mind you, but it's bad for much different
>reasons.  Win 3.1 was just a horrible OS.  XP merely invades your personal
>life...

XP has much more flaws than just the privacy issue. It's whole 
structure is wrong, it's a rip off of half Apple's hard work and a 
bad one at that and NVIDIA find it so hard to program for their 
drivers (used to - I dunno about now) crash it all the time.

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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/7/02 11:54 AM, Teri Pittman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Now, that is what I'm afraid of!  I am starting to think of having these all
> networked together, with a different version of the OS on each one..
> 
> Why Quadras?
I've had as many as  eight on  a LN in  the  same 12x12  room. For no real
purpose except maybe one  was  rigged  to handle a printer and the other the
net and the  other a scanner and the other a camera and the  other was a
t.v..One  G4 and a Sony 32  is  easier and  better, but not  as  satisfying
to  the obsessed.
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R.A. Cantrell

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Dana Sibera.]

On Wednesday, May 8, 2002, at 02:54  AM, Teri Pittman wrote:

>> Now less than 2 years after my first mac there are 36 of them being 
>> kept
>> warm in my flat. Sometimes, a few of them do a little useful work :)
>>
>
> Now, that is what I'm afraid of!  I am starting to think of having 
> these all
> networked together, with a different version of the OS on each one..

Not long ago I read of someone, perhaps someone on this list, who'd 
reached over 100 machines, after giving up smoking and spending the $$ 
on macs. My mac obsession did start with spare $$ from giving up - 11 
months for me - it's far cheaper in the end, and far more fun :D

> Why Quadras?

Going back to when I liked the look of LC's (but not owning any macs at 
the time) I was heavily into Amigas. 68030 and 040 CPU's are what I knew 
well. It's a bit of a recapturing-a-never-misspent youth, mixed with 
staying with what I know. I'm very heavily into collecting by case 
design now, and Q605's for me are the top there. I may as well collect 
their family!. x100PPC's and 68030 macs also have a place in my home. 
x600's and G3 minitowers are the next phase I think - just because 
they're kind of pretty, and because cheap obsessions are just eccentric 
like that :)

dana
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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

> Now less than 2 years after my first mac there are 36 of them being kept
> warm in my flat. Sometimes, a few of them do a little useful work :)
>

Now, that is what I'm afraid of!  I am starting to think of having these all
networked together, with a different version of the OS on each one..

Why Quadras?


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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Dana Sibera.]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2002, at 08:32  AM, Teri Pittman wrote:
> . .Will anyone ever want a 7100/66 board again? Ever?
>
> Ls see, I have a Classic, a IIci and next a Quadra.  I figure I'll get a
> PC and an iMac and I'll be set.

I'd take a 7100/66... if they were free, which really isn't worth a 
resellers time.

My path started in 2000, with the gift of an 8100. A little later I 
helped restore a Classic II for a friend, and just had to have one 
myself. Then my lusting after an LC from the early 90's came back - so I 
bought an LCII. then a couple of LCIII's. A Quadra or two appeared, WAY 
too many more LCIII's, a couple more powermacs, an iMac 400, some II's 
and a Plus and more Quadras and more Quadras and more Quadras...

Now less than 2 years after my first mac there are 36 of them being kept 
warm in my flat. Sometimes, a few of them do a little useful work :)

dana (aiming for a full complement of quadras someday)
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Re: It's not hardware....

[Dana Sibera.]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2002, at 12:18  PM, Eagle wrote:

The 68k CPUs started life at mostly 32bit then went
>> full 32bit and didn't change much except for
>> integrating the MMU then finally the FPU and a small
>> internal cache in the 040.
>
> That's a pretty good explanation of why I took 68k assembler in college
> and have forever avoided x86 assembler -- won't even touch it with a
> 10-foot-pole.
>
> 68k assembler just made sense to me.  x86 -- "not so much."

Curiously, when I did Systems Architecture, we were introduced to 68k's 
and x86's, we were told how well designed the 68k's were comparatively, 
and how much more -real world- the 68k's were to code on in assembler 
compared to all other cpu's at the time.

Then, for some reason, the rest of the course concentrated on working 
around the problems in x86's. *shrug*

dana
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Re: It's not hardware....

[Dana Sibera.]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2002, at 07:25  AM, R.A. Cantrell wrote:

> on 5/6/02 4:18 PM, Scott Holder at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> IIci or something
> I passed up 100 IIci's at $0.40 each.  No  place  to put em.

Oh dear. my immediate thought is "but they stack so well...". Then I 
started pondering building shelving from them :D

dana (obsessed... absolutely)
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Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/7/02 7:27 AM, Ken Strayhorn at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I was working for the NYT
EEEy. If I had  but known. O well, I  guess  you are in remission.
Congrats on the  recovery.
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

At 11:07 AM 05/07/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>Now I am confused.  Why wouldn't you run Yellow Dog Linux instead??
>
>Do you want the polite answer or the rude answer?
>

Either, if we're talking about the software.  The polite one, if we're
talking about me asking the question *grin*!
Teri Pittman
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: It's not hardware....

[Ken Strayhorn]

The Eagle said:

>On Monday, May 6, 2002, at 05:07 , Teri Pittman wrote:
>>>  What are the  minimums for running XP, and is an  MMX 166 a Pentium  I?
>>>  --
>>  Avoiding XP is what got me interested in Macs *grin*!
>
>That's EXACTLY my story too.  I had been looking for something
>different, because there are many aspects to XP I don't like.  They're
>too far OT to go into though; suffice it to say that I *will*not* run XP.

My previous life was as a journalist.  I was working for the NYT
organization when they started converting from hard copy to
computers in the late 70s, 1978 to be exact.  We had these awful
CRTs (it's unfair to call them computers) made by Harris that
failed at least once a day.  They were slow, you had to write
to disk and then hand the disk to a compositor (even though he
was only in the next room) and life was just one annoyance after
another.  Since the company was too cheap to pay for onsite
help, I usually got saddled with fixing things.

We switched over to ATEX, a DOS-based system designed especially
for newspapers.  It sucked too.  It even came with our very own
tech support, a guy with a CS degree who spent most of his time
smoozing the women in the ad dept, or just never around when you
needed.  Again, I ended up fixing things most of the time.

I went to a trade show in '84 or '85 (can't remember exactly)
for the print industry.  Lo and behold, there was a Mac SE running
an early version of PageMaker.  Like Saul on the road to Tarsus,
the bright light went off over my head and I was converted.  Here
was a system that _worked_.  And that was the key to the Mac
for me, and continues to be so - they _work_.  No screwing
around.  Plug them in, bring them up on the network, show
the writers where to start Word and where the 'print' command
is, and go away.

Currently I run a mixed-platform LAN in higher ed, equal number
of Macs and PCs.  And these are "good" PCs, current models with
loads of RAM.  I spend maybe five minutes a week on Mac issues.
I spend at least an hour a day trying to get a PC to print, or
to download email, or whatever.  They just suck. Win98, 2000,
NT, XP - I've tried them all, and they suck.


>Anyway, I'm a big NeXT fan and I instantly recognized OS X's heritage. 
>I knew I was sold.  It was only _later_ -- after I got into OS X -- that
>I got interested in older Macs.  My collection now includes a NeXTcube,
>a NeXTstation, a G4 Cube, an SE/30, an SE, and 3 Plusses.

I started out on an SE, then graduated to an SE/30, a Mac IIcx,
a PM 7100, then a 7500, up to an 8600 and now work on a G4.
I started collecting the old stuff because it kept showing up
at the landfill and in the Goodwill store for prices like
$5.  It's a cheap and fun hobby, and some of the odd accessories
always make visitors to the office laugh.

My latest addition is a PowerBook 140, given to me free by
a friend who found it in the closet of an apartment he
just moved into.  It came with this really odd battery, a thin
box the size of the PB that fits underneath.  I'd never seen
one of those before.  And did it work? Of course! It's a Mac.

Ken Strayhorn
Duke University

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Mark Benson]

>Now I am confused.  Why wouldn't you run Yellow Dog Linux instead??

Do you want the polite answer or the rude answer?

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Eagle]

On Monday, May 6, 2002, at 05:23 , Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> The x86 CPUs seem to have added more features with
> each generation than did the 68k CPUs, like going
> from an 8bit memory bus to 16bit then 32bit. They
> added relatively large internal caches and FPUs.
> To add features to Windows _and_ continue support
> (with a limited feature set) for older CPUs would've
> made Windows code more complex.
>
> The 68k CPUs started life at mostly 32bit then went
> full 32bit and didn't change much except for
> integrating the MMU then finally the FPU and a small
> internal cache in the 040.

That's a pretty good explanation of why I took 68k assembler in college 
and have forever avoided x86 assembler -- won't even touch it with a 
10-foot-pole.

68k assembler just made sense to me.  x86 -- "not so much."

> After the 040 and 486 they split off in different
> directions. Motorola made a few further advances
> with the 68k but Apple chose to dive into the pool
> with IBM and Motorola on the PowerPC and an aborted
> attempt to build a computer that would run Mac OS
> and other operating systems. (The CHRP system.)
> The x86 world decided to pile on more and more Mhz
> and features like MMX, 3D-Now! and a whole host of
> others. Apple/IBM/Motorola has brought us a steady
> progression in basic performance from the 601 through
> the G3 and one major added feature with AltiVec on
> the G4. (Which still isn't fully exploited.)

One wonders when the x86 MHz pile-on will dead end.

> Just because you CAN run some versions of the Mac
> System or Mac OS on a computer 8 or so years older
> than the OS version doesn't mean that it's going to
> be tolerable to use. :) Windows avoided that by
> dropping support for older CPUs with fewer features
> and less capabilities. Call it "fostering consumer
> loyalty" if you want, but it sure didn't help drive
> sales of new Macs to not "fix" each new major
> System version to drop the previous CPU generation.

I always called it "controlled obsolescence."

Eagle


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Eagle]

On Monday, May 6, 2002, at 05:07 , Teri Pittman wrote:
>> What are the  minimums for running XP, and is an  MMX 166 a Pentium  I?
>> --
> Avoiding XP is what got me interested in Macs *grin*!

That's EXACTLY my story too.  I had been looking for something 
different, because there are many aspects to XP I don't like.  They're 
too far OT to go into though; suffice it to say that I *will*not* run XP.

Anyway, I'm a big NeXT fan and I instantly recognized OS X's heritage.  
I knew I was sold.  It was only _later_ -- after I got into OS X -- that 
I got interested in older Macs.  My collection now includes a NeXTcube, 
a NeXTstation, a G4 Cube, an SE/30, an SE, and 3 Plusses.

Eagle


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Cameron Kaiser]

> To be extra pedantic, the P60/66 should be the P1

ITYM the P1.0045974985794723499574069402984538 series. ;-)

> and the P75 through the P233MMX should be the P1.5
> series. ;)

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

>This is a fascinating debate but can we stick to Mac OS *at least*
>and maybe even 68k Macs please, eversonicely.

I'm trying, boss, I'm trying *grin*!
>
>As for comments about masochists and running OS X on a 7300 I refuse
>to air my views here as it's off-topic. Suffice to say it was
>partially succesful though.

Now I am confused.  Why wouldn't you run Yellow Dog Linux instead??
>



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Re: It's not hardware....

[Mark Benson]

>  > What are the  minimums for running XP, and is an  MMX 166 a Pentium  I?
>>  --
>Avoiding XP is what got me interested in Macs *grin*!

Here, here.

This is a fascinating debate but can we stick to Mac OS *at least* 
and maybe even 68k Macs please, eversonicely.

As for comments about masochists and running OS X on a 7300 I refuse 
to air my views here as it's off-topic. Suffice to say it was 
partially succesful though.

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Re: wind Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Joseph Russo]

And such a lovely sight to behold. Yuck! There everywhere now and produce
virtually nothing with which to power my little Cube. Junk science indeed.
What we need are a few good nukes !!!

Joe

> --- "R.A. Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> on 5/6/02 6:35 PM, Gregg Eshelman at
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>>> even works at night if the
>>> wind is blowing.
> 
>> In a past life I was a securities broker, and  the
>> firm I was with raised a
>> LOT of  money for wind generated electricity. The
>> big  windfarms  out in
>> California. Like  out  around  Palm  Springs and  so
>> forth. The  one  thing
>> that  kept them  from being  economic( making
>> money) was that bugs splatted
>> on the turbine blades and cut the  efficiency down
>> below  the  $$$ line.
>> Washing them  was right  out of  the  question
>> considering  the  size of
>> the things. Go  figure.
> 
> That's the beauty of building from scratch with
> salvaged and surplus parts. Very low initial
> investment and when built with reasonable care,
> these generators are quite efficient. :)
> 
> =
> http://www.junkscience.com "All the Junk that's fit to Debunk!"
> 
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wind Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- "R.A. Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 5/6/02 6:35 PM, Gregg Eshelman at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > even works at night if the
> > wind is blowing.

> In a past life I was a securities broker, and  the
> firm I was with raised a
> LOT of  money for wind generated electricity. The 
> big  windfarms  out in
> California. Like  out  around  Palm  Springs and  so
> forth. The  one  thing
> that  kept them  from being  economic( making 
> money) was that bugs splatted
> on the turbine blades and cut the  efficiency down 
> below  the  $$$ line.
> Washing them  was right  out of  the  question
> considering  the  size of
> the things. Go  figure.

That's the beauty of building from scratch with
salvaged and surplus parts. Very low initial
investment and when built with reasonable care,
these generators are quite efficient. :)

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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/6/02 6:35 PM, Gregg Eshelman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> even works at night if the
> wind is blowing.
In a past life I was a securities broker, and  the firm I was with raised a
LOT of  money for wind generated electricity. The  big  windfarms  out in
California. Like  out  around  Palm  Springs and  so forth. The  one  thing
that  kept them  from being  economic( making  money) was that bugs splatted
on the turbine blades and cut the  efficiency down  below  the  $$$ line.
Washing them  was right  out of  the  question considering  the  size of
the things. Go  figure.
-- 
All the best,
R.A. Cantrell

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

> > . .Will anyone ever want a 7100/66 board again?
> Ever?

Well, when (if) things ever get settled down in
places like Afghanistan, I'd bet the schools there
would love to have just about any computer.

Of course they need some electricity too, so info
from sites like http://www.otherpower.com which shows
how to build powerful but dirt cheap wind and water
powered generators from scratch using super strong
magnets from hard drives would be very useful. :)

Hmm, a homebrew wind turbine, a rack of absorbed
glass matt storage batteries*, charging and regulating
electronics, PLUS a few pallets of old Macs. That
would be quite the aid package, eh? :) Way cheaper
than photovoltaic and even works at night if the
wind is blowing. Everything but the batteries could
be found used or built from scratch or basic
components by local labor.

*Those are the ones that look like a giant six-pack.
They'll take rapid charge and discharge, can be
discharged almost to zero without damage and gass
off so little hydrogen under charge that it's as
close to nil as you can get. They don't spill and
can be mounted in any position. My sister delivers
pizza for Dominos and drove around with one of those
in her car for a week after the alternator quit
working. Expensive but well worth it!

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- the pickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 13:47 -0700 on 06/05/02, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
> 
> >Will System 6 run on the Mac 128K and 512K?
> 
> Not IIRC, and certainly not *well*...
> 
> >System 7.5.x dropped some off it's list.

H. I dunno. I'm a bit weak on the earlier
System stuff. AFAIK, 7.5.5 was the first System
to be pretty decent on PowerMacs and in my experience
it's a bit "heavy" for 030's and older at speeds
less than 25Mhz. Great on a IIfx or a IIci with
a 40 or 50Mhz DayStar 030 PowerCache, but I found
7.6 to be more stable. The IIsi I had was just
unbearbly poky under the weight of 7.5.5, even with
65megs RAM and the IIsi RAM Muncher INIT.

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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/6/02 5:32 PM, Teri Pittman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Let's see, I have a Classic, a IIci and next a Quadra.  I figure I'll get a
> PPC and an iMac and I'll be set.
My path was: a gift of a Quadra 700, one 6300cd the fifty more, one 7100,
then a  hundred  more, (still have a 6300cd t.v. in service and a 7100/80 as
well) fifty partly junked 8100's, a 7300, some 7600's (sold a few) a Beige
G3 (sold  it) and my new in the  box iMacdv400/1gig (brag). Got some 7200's
that I'm  getting  spiffed up (sold one barebones to buy stuff  for  the
others) Need one? Sigh. I'm still using a 56k dialup, and behind that
limitation there  is nothing really that the 7100 wouldn't  do except
streaming media. Especially when it  had the Sonnet G3 in it.
-- 
All the best,
R.A. Cantrell

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

> . .Will anyone ever want a 7100/66 board again? Ever?

I don't know, I haven't worked my way up to that era yet *grin*.  I can tell
you, having paid money for a couple of these ancient machines that there are
a few folks buying them.  Probably just not enough to put a dent in your
collection.

Let's see, I have a Classic, a IIci and next a Quadra.  I figure I'll get a
PPC and an iMac and I'll be set.


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Re: It's not hardware....

[the pickle]

At 13:47 -0700 on 06/05/02, Gregg Eshelman wrote:

>Will System 6 run on the Mac 128K and 512K?

Not IIRC, and certainly not *well*...

>System 7.5.x dropped some off it's list.

But not any that weren't already on the list for System 7, which is only
the ones that can't run System 6 or higher... unless you know differently...

>Mac OS 7.6 requires a 32bit "clean" ROM, which leaves
>out Macs prior to the IIci and IIfx.

Ah yes.  Forgot about that.

>Mac OS 8.1 dropped all Macs with an 030 CPU.

Officially yes.  Unofficially no.

>Mac OS 8.5 dropped 68K support.

Quite true.

>Mac OS 9.1 is the last version that will run on ANY
>PowerMac. Newer versions of 9.x.x updaters refuse
>to install on a 601 CPU PowerMac.

Although this can be worked around, I recommend against it.  I've heard of
lots of problems.

the pickle

FAQ 

Software Archive


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Re: Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/6/02 5:02 PM, Gregg Eshelman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Didn't you even look inside them for goodies? :)
Nope, nor did I  look  inside the 100 7100/66s. I have goodies amighty now
that nobody wants. I've  tried rescuing whole boxes in mass, and rescuing
bulk parts by ransacking the boxes. The Macs that I passed up went straight
to the dump, not even  to the recycler first. It's  gettin sad out there.
When institutions flush out old hardware, jobbers bid on the stuff in lots,
what they can't make use of they put out at auctions and flea markets for
scrapper/salvagers like  me, the Fred T.  Sanford of  Macdom. (I did not do
this to myself on purpose) A year or  so ago I'd have  walked across Texas
(or at  least  a few  blocks) to get the widget that would keep an old
Quadra in service. Right now, me, the dog, or these 50 SuperMac Spectrum 8
cards have to  go: the dog is  sweet, so it's me  or them. Speak  now  or
forever. . .Will anyone ever want a 7100/66 board again? Ever? If you are
going to go to the trouble  to disassemble the machine down to  the  board,
you'd be  nutz  to put a 66 board back in when you could put in an 80 for
$3-$5. So what's to do with the 66 boards? Say 100 of them? Sigh.
-- 
All the best,
R.A. Cantrell

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Nearly a gross of IIci's Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- "R.A. Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 5/6/02 4:18 PM, Scott Holder at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > IIci or something
> I passed up 100 IIci's at $0.40 each.  No  place  to
> put em.

Didn't you even look inside them for goodies? :)

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- "R.A. Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Thanks Scott. I just want to look  at XP as i have
> no  experience  with
> Windows and have the166 box just sitting there. I
> had hoped to  be  able  to
> load it and  run it  without any other apps by
> bumping the mem

OK, this is definately OT now. :) But visit
http://www.annoyances.org first. Also you'll probably
want to learn how to turn off as much of the
"Tutti-Frutti" look as possible to help the speed.

To be extra pedantic, the P60/66 should be the P1
and the P75 through the P233MMX should be the P1.5
series. ;)

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- "R.A. Cantrell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 5/6/02 3:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > really need a decently fast Pentium.
> What are the  minimums for running XP, and is an 
> MMX 166 a Pentium  I?

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/pro/evaluation/sysreqs.asp

There's no Pentium I. :) You could call the P60 and
P66 roughly equivalent to the PPC 601/60 and 66.
Then it did a big change to lower voltage, smaller
package and higher speed.

And now for Mac content. :)
http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

>
> Just get a nice IIci or something 
>
See, that's exactly what I did!  Avoidance of XP leads to IIci, which leads
to this list and lots of questions.  Thanks for your answers.  I'm having a
lot of fun with this ancient hardware and software.


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- James S Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Not really true. The first versions of Windows would
> run on an 8088, but 
> 3.0 and 3.1 required at least a 80286. And, there
> was a split at version 
> 2.1, with Windows 386 not running on anything less
> than a 80386. The 
> Windows 386 code evolved into Windows 95/98/Me.
> Windows NT through 
> version 3.51 ran on DEC Alpha and IBM PowerPC
> machines. Version 4 dropped PPC.

Win 3.0 was the last to run on a 8088/8086.
NT 4.0 still supported the Alpha CPU, and I'm
sure I read about NT 4 running on an early CHRP
board as well as some version of Mac OS (though that
wasn't supposed to).

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Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/6/02 4:18 PM, Scott Holder at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> IIci or something
I passed up 100 IIci's at $0.40 each.  No  place  to put em.
-- 
All the best,
R.A. Cantrell

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Teri Pittman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What prompted all this, is that one of my favorite
> Palm software companies
> came out with a desktop version that runs on OS X. 
> Plans are to finish the
> Windows desktop next, then support OS 9 in the Mac
> world (maybe).  It seems
> to be hurting sales.  I'm wondering if they would
> have been better off
> supporting OS 9 and OS X at a later date.  Which
> lead to the deep thoughts
> about which company did a better job at supporting
> legacy machines.

The x86 CPUs seem to have added more features with
each generation than did the 68k CPUs, like going
from an 8bit memory bus to 16bit then 32bit. They
added relatively large internal caches and FPUs.
To add features to Windows _and_ continue support
(with a limited feature set) for older CPUs would've
made Windows code more complex.

The 68k CPUs started life at mostly 32bit then went
full 32bit and didn't change much except for
integrating the MMU then finally the FPU and a small
internal cache in the 040.

The two lines started from different places and ended
up in pretty much the same spot with the 040 and 486.
If the 68k CPU line had changed as radically over
the years as the x86 did, then the Mac System and
OS would've had shorter hardware "life support" spans.

After the 040 and 486 they split off in different
directions. Motorola made a few further advances
with the 68k but Apple chose to dive into the pool
with IBM and Motorola on the PowerPC and an aborted
attempt to build a computer that would run Mac OS
and other operating systems. (The CHRP system.)
The x86 world decided to pile on more and more Mhz
and features like MMX, 3D-Now! and a whole host of
others. Apple/IBM/Motorola has brought us a steady
progression in basic performance from the 601 through
the G3 and one major added feature with AltiVec on
the G4. (Which still isn't fully exploited.)

Go here for in-depth looks at various CPU technology
from all the major players.
http://arstechnica.com/cpu/index.html

Just because you CAN run some versions of the Mac
System or Mac OS on a computer 8 or so years older
than the OS version doesn't mean that it's going to
be tolerable to use. :) Windows avoided that by
dropping support for older CPUs with fewer features
and less capabilities. Call it "fostering consumer
loyalty" if you want, but it sure didn't help drive
sales of new Macs to not "fix" each new major
System version to drop the previous CPU generation.

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Scott Holder]

At 04:15 PM 5/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>on 5/6/02 3:58 PM, Scott Holder at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >
> > Yes, a 166MMX is a P1.
> >
> > Scott Holder
>Thanks Scott. I just want to look  at XP as i have no  experience  with
>Windows and have the166 box just sitting there. I had hoped to  be  able  to
>load it and  run it  without any other apps by bumping the mem

Eh, it'd boot and operate. Would be like running OS X on a stock 8500.

Just get a nice IIci or something 

Scott Holder


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Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/6/02 3:58 PM, Scott Holder at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> 
> Yes, a 166MMX is a P1.
> 
> Scott Holder
Thanks Scott. I just want to look  at XP as i have no  experience  with
Windows and have the166 box just sitting there. I had hoped to  be  able  to
load it and  run it  without any other apps by bumping the mem
-- 
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R.A. Cantrell

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
ory on the box to  128.


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

> What are the  minimums for running XP, and is an  MMX 166 a Pentium  I?
> -- 
Avoiding XP is what got me interested in Macs *grin*!


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Scott Holder]

At 03:54 PM 5/6/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>on 5/6/02 3:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > really need a decently fast Pentium.
>What are the  minimums for running XP, and is an  MMX 166 a Pentium  I?

XP is one of those oddities that has vastly different minimum and 
recommended. A friend of mine got it running on a P-100 with 64 megs of 
RAM, but you'll want at least, say, a P2-400 with as much RAM as you can 
stuff in it to make it happy. I have 1.5 gigs of RAM in my main PC ($26 
each for 512 meg sticks, Pricewatch special) and it manages to use 200-300 
megs of it without any effort on my part.

Yes, a 166MMX is a P1.

Scott Holder


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Re: It's not hardware....

[R.A. Cantrell]

on 5/6/02 3:47 PM, Gregg Eshelman at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> really need a decently fast Pentium.
What are the  minimums for running XP, and is an  MMX 166 a Pentium  I?
-- 
All the best,
R.A. Cantrell

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


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Re: It's not hardware....

[Gregg Eshelman]

--- Teri Pittman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a quick question and don't want to drag the
> list too far off topic.
> 
> It seems that Apple has had at least three instances
> where they've
> developed a new operating system that simply won't
> work on their older
> hardware.  7.1 seems to be the first, followed by
> PPC only (8.2?), followed
> by OS X.  That's only happened once in the Windoze
> world that I know of
> (Win95).  Am I right about this?  Is this one of the
> things that has
> affected sales?

Will System 6 run on the Mac 128K and 512K?
System 7.5.x dropped some off it's list.
Mac OS 7.6 requires a 32bit "clean" ROM, which leaves
out Macs prior to the IIci and IIfx.
Mac OS 8.1 dropped all Macs with an 030 CPU.
Mac OS 8.5 dropped 68K support.
Mac OS 9.1 is the last version that will run on ANY
PowerMac. Newer versions of 9.x.x updaters refuse
to install on a 601 CPU PowerMac.

For Windows, 3.0 and earlier (except the obscure
Windows 286 and Windows 386) can be run on just about
anything that calls itself PC Compatable. Windows 1.x
and 2.x can even be run in fullscreen mode under
Win9x.
Windows 3.1x dropped support for the 8088/8086 CPU.
Windows For Workgroups 3.11 dropped support for the
286 CPU, but (just plain) Windows 3.11 still ran on
a 286. (I still don't know if the Workgroups For
Windows add-on worked with 3.11 on a 286.)
Windows 95 will run (crawl) on a 386SX with 4megs RAM.
Windows 98 and 98SE can be tricked into installing
on a 486 but really need a decently fast Pentium.

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Re: It's not hardware....

[James A. Reible]

At 09:45 -070005/06/2002, Teri Pittman wrote;

>  I didn't expect such a radical
>difference between 7.0 and 7.1 (although I was warned!)

I got my 7100 Christmas of '94.
It came with 7.5 and that's what I 'learned' on.
Three years later I got this 'cute' Plus.
I couldn't make it work until I plugged in a 40MB external with 7.5.1 on it!
To me the 'early' OSes are a novelty only, I can't conceive doing 
'work' on them.
But then that's me.
YMMV

---
Peace,
Shakes
---
"Knowledge is a deadly friend if no one sets the rules.
The fate of all mankind I see is in the hands of fools."
---Peter Sinfield---1969---

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

>In any meaningful analysis, Apple has
> been much more supportive of their older hardware than any other
> software or hardware company. Go try to find information on 18 year old
> PCs on the IBM or Compaq web sites. Where are their freely downloadable
> versions of classic OS software? Dell and Gateway didn't even exist in
> 1984.
>
Well, the answer to that is simple.  The hardware isn't worth the effort.
Most of the hardware in PCs doesn't hold up that long (with the exception of
IBM, who turn out nice stuff.)  It is possible to find some stuff, like Dr.
DOS & Desqview X.  You certainly won't find any Windows products available.
I think you find more folks in the PC world who piece together their
computer from parts, than you do in the Apple universe.

I'm also sure that the progression of Apple OSs makes perfect sense, if you
were there from the beginning and saw each version as it came out.  It's a
lot more confusing trying to pick it up.I didn't expect such a radical
difference between 7.0 and 7.1 (although I was warned!)



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Re: It's not hardware....

[the pickle]

At 09:19 -0700 on 06/05/02, James S Jones wrote:

>They've gotten 8.1 running on 68030s, 8.5 running on 68040s and OS X

Uh, 8.5 on 040s without PPC cards?  If so, I'm *very* interested to know how...

the pickle

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Re: It's not hardware....

[James S Jones]

Not really true. The first versions of Windows would run on an 8088, but 
3.0 and 3.1 required at least a 80286. And, there was a split at version 
2.1, with Windows 386 not running on anything less than a 80386. The 
Windows 386 code evolved into Windows 95/98/Me. Windows NT through 
version 3.51 ran on DEC Alpha and IBM PowerPC machines. Version 4 
dropped PPC. Version 5 ( Windows 2000) dropped everything except 80586 
(Pentium) machines and Version 6 (XP) won't run with a good many Pentium 
class machines.

Apple made a switch in 1994 that the PC world has never done. It moved 
to a completely different processor and then a year or so later to a 
completely different architecture. In any meaningful analysis, Apple has 
been much more supportive of their older hardware than any other 
software or hardware company. Go try to find information on 18 year old 
PCs on the IBM or Compaq web sites. Where are their freely downloadable 
versions of classic OS software? Dell and Gateway didn't even exist in 
1984.

Apple only has so many resources to throw at compatibility testing. I'm 
glad they don't squander those on testing the latest software on vintage 
machines. They would only go broke doing so.

More importantly, that's what we have cleverly hacking hobbyists for. 
They've gotten 8.1 running on 68030s, 8.5 running on 68040s and OS X 
running on all varieties of PCI PPCs -- and had fun doing so.

On Monday, May 6, 2002, at 05:45  AM, Teri Pittman wrote:

> I have a quick question and don't want to drag the list too far off 
> topic.
>
> It seems that Apple has had at least three instances where they've
> developed a new operating system that simply won't work on their older
> hardware.  7.1 seems to be the first, followed by PPC only (8.2?), 
> followed
> by OS X.  That's only happened once in the Windoze world that I know of
> (Win95).  Am I right about this?  Is this one of the things that has
> affected sales?


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Re: It's not hardware....

[the pickle]

At 08:42 -0700 on 06/05/02, Teri Pittman wrote:

>> What won't 7.1 run on that 7.0.1 would?
>
>I ran into that when looking at the specs on Lowendmac.  It said that it was
>the last OS for the 68020 and under.  I'm not saying I'm right--just trying

That's clearly wrong, since 7.5.5 works fine on everything from a Plus to
the last of the 68Ks.

the pickle

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Re: It's not hardware....

[Teri Pittman]

>
> What won't 7.1 run on that 7.0.1 would?

I ran into that when looking at the specs on Lowendmac.  It said that it was
the last OS for the 68020 and under.  I'm not saying I'm right--just trying
to make some sense out of the Mac OS numbering scheme.
>
> 8.5 was the first PPC-only system, and it came so long after the
> discontinuation of the last 040s that it was actually hurting the
> performance (and thus perceived speed) of the newer Macs.  Remember, 8.5
> didn't ship until six months *after* the iMac was announced, and three
> months after it was introduced!
>
> OS X's lack of older Mac support has probably hurt more, but as someone
> who's tried it on a "supported" Mac, I really wonder who these masochists
> are who want to run it on a 7300...
>
What prompted all this, is that one of my favorite Palm software companies
came out with a desktop version that runs on OS X.  Plans are to finish the
Windows desktop next, then support OS 9 in the Mac world (maybe).  It seems
to be hurting sales.  I'm wondering if they would have been better off
supporting OS 9 and OS X at a later date.  Which lead to the deep thoughts
about which company did a better job at supporting legacy machines.





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Re: It's not hardware....

[the pickle]

At 05:45 -0700 on 06/05/02, Teri Pittman wrote:

>It seems that Apple has had at least three instances where they've
>developed a new operating system that simply won't work on their older
>hardware.  7.1 seems to be the first, followed by PPC only (8.2?), followed

What won't 7.1 run on that 7.0.1 would?

8.5 was the first PPC-only system, and it came so long after the
discontinuation of the last 040s that it was actually hurting the
performance (and thus perceived speed) of the newer Macs.  Remember, 8.5
didn't ship until six months *after* the iMac was announced, and three
months after it was introduced!

OS X's lack of older Mac support has probably hurt more, but as someone
who's tried it on a "supported" Mac, I really wonder who these masochists
are who want to run it on a 7300...

the pickle

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Re: It's not hardware....

[J.S. Garrison]

--
>From: Teri Pittman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Vintage Macs)
>Subject: It's not hardware
>Date: Mon, May 6, 2002, 5:45 AM
>

> I have a quick question and don't want to drag the list too far off topic.
>
> It seems that Apple has had at least three instances where they've
> developed a new operating system that simply won't work on their older
> hardware.  7.1 seems to be the first, followed by PPC only (8.2?), followed
> by OS X.  That's only happened once in the Windoze world that I know of
> (Win95).  Am I right about this?  Is this one of the things that has
> affected sales?
>
> Thanks!
> Teri Pittman
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Truthfully, Windows has done it several times, if you count certain versions
of DOS. Twice, if you count the newest version of just Windows, "XP".

Try running an 80286 with Windows 3.1? Or 95? While do-able with the former
it's crippled by the CPU. With the latter, it WON'T happen.

You CAN run a Mac SE on anything from System 5 to 7.5.5. THAT'S flexibility
far and away beyond anything Gates and his crew had done with machines and
operating systems. Those O.Ses span some 8 or so years of product
development.

I'd call Mac WAAYY more dedicated and concerned for it's users than Windows
EVER was. OR WILL BE

Jeff

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