Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-28 Thread Steve Moody

At 5:21 PM -0700 7/28/2001, Alex Allee wrote:
   2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
  ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
  Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error
  codes.  Windows 95 comes close, however.

That's because DOS has no error codes, it just crashed and required a
reboot. :)


   MS-DOS rarely crashed when I used it.  The only OS I've used that 
crashed less that MS-DOS is TRS-DOS.   TRS-DOS never crashed on me. 
But who wants to use those?
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Re: Errors on the Mac (was Re: Most stable OS)

2001-07-26 Thread Steve Moody

At 1:44 AM -0700 7/26/2001, Gregg Eshelman wrote:
I've been unlucky enough to see the work of lazy
Windows programmers with messages like
An error has occured: Error. [OK]
Can't remember what program that was.

   That's nothing.  I have a jpg of an error window that CC:Mail for 
Windows 3.1 gave me one day (at work - I'm not a PC user, but I play 
one at work). Fatal Error - No Error,  Apparently, one of the 
programs knew that it would be confusing to most Windows users if the 
program worked flawlessly.

   And to remain on topic:

   Does anyone know where I can buy some System 7.1 disks?  My 
recently aquired LCIII has it installed, but it ain't all there.
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Self crashing apps. Re: Most Stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Gregg Eshelman

Netscape's favorite tactic is scribbling over
itself in memory, at least on Windows. How do I
tell if a Mac app crash is due to the app overwriting
part of its main executable in RAM? At any rate,
especially after 20+ years, _I_ find it amazing
that programmers still haven't come up with a
99.999% perfect way of keeping applications from
doing this, no matter what OS or platform. :P

How hard can it be for the app to look around and
see that its current memory location starts at
_this_ address and ends at _that_ one, then create
a temporary file saying Thou shall NOT write
ANYTHING upon thyself.???

I'm sick of seeing NETSCAPE.EXE caused a (pick an
error) in NETSCAPE.EXE. Bleagh. I suppose I'd
need a debugger loaded to catch Mac apps blowing
their own bits out?

All systems can do with these bad app-les is to
quarrantine them and sweep up the debris. Win NT/2K,
OSX, Linux etc can do that. Mac System/OS 9.1 and
older and WinMe/9x/3.xx can't. Its still best to
reboot after an app crashes, no telling what little
nuggets its left behind just waiting to cause
some normally stable app to blow up.

--- James S Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Part of the problem with Netscape 2.0 to 4.7x is
 that it was designed to be
 internally multithreaded, using a Netscape thread
 manager, rather than a
 system one*. The root of this came from Mac System 7
 and 16-bit Windows. Those
 systems didn't have thread managers. The result is a
 monstrously monolithic
 and huge application, which uses so many resources
 that it can block the
 system I/O queues, even on multithreaded,
 pre-emptive multitasking systems
 like OS/2 or Win9x (although perhaps not NT). The
 system has to be rebooted
 because you can't get back to the Finder/WorkPlace
 Shell/Explorer to kill it
 when it hangs.
 
 To their credit, this design provided some real
 benefits on a 68k Mac. I can
 be downloading something while sending an email or
 reading a web page, etc.
 
 *I think NS 4.x actually uses a system thread
 manager extension for OS 7.5.5
 and earlier.


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Re: Self crashing apps. Re: Most Stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread James S Jones

This is one of the advantages of Netscape on the classic Mac OS. Any
application creates it's own memory partition and only the most remarkably
buggy apps will overwrite another app's partition (maybe something not 32-bit
clean?). Netscape and some others go one step further. Once it has a
partition, it never releases it back to the system*. If you quit NS and
restart it, it will use exactly the same space it previously occupied. I
suspect that one reason NS will freeze the system if you restart it after it
crashes is that it tries to reclaim that space, but the system sees as a new
app trying to overwrite another's partition and it traps the protection
violation. I don't necessarily reboot immediately after all apps abend, but I
would never try to run some, like NS, without rebooting.

*So, if you've allocated 24 MB of your 128 MB to Netscape and then close it,
you will not get that memory back for other applications without rebooting.

Gregg Eshelman wrote:
 
 All systems can do with these bad app-les is to
 quarrantine them and sweep up the debris. Win NT/2K,
 OSX, Linux etc can do that. Mac System/OS 9.1 and
 older and WinMe/9x/3.xx can't. Its still best to
 reboot after an app crashes, no telling what little
 nuggets its left behind just waiting to cause
 some normally stable app to blow up.

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Re: Self crashing apps. Re: Most Stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Gregg Eshelman

--- James S Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 This is one of the advantages of Netscape on the
 classic Mac OS. Any
 application creates it's own memory partition and
 only the most remarkably
 buggy apps will overwrite another app's partition
 (maybe something not 32-bit
 clean?). Netscape and some others go one step
 further. Once it has a
 partition, it never releases it back to the system*.
 If you quit NS and
 restart it, it will use exactly the same space it
 previously occupied. I
 suspect that one reason NS will freeze the system if
 you restart it after it
 crashes is that it tries to reclaim that space, but
 the system sees as a new
 app trying to overwrite another's partition and it
 traps the protection
 violation. I don't necessarily reboot immediately
 after all apps abend, but I
 would never try to run some, like NS, without
 rebooting.
 
 *So, if you've allocated 24 MB of your 128 MB to
 Netscape and then close it,
 you will not get that memory back for other
 applications without rebooting.

No wonder Jump Development said you shouldn't even
think about thinking about using RAM Charger on
Netscape. :P (Another nasty bit with Netscape is
it's not fully Smart Scroll Aware, the thumbs
are fixed at the default size.) At Netscape,
we read the programming manuals for the OS, then
do what they say NOT to do!

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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Darren

Very off topic, please excuse me. Maybe this tread will help some body.
I hope. Not my words but those that may come

David Robinson wrote:

 The problem with that is that my crashes usually occur only when working. For
 example, I may be using Pagemaker 6.5, and/or Photoshop 5.5, with Netscape at
 the same time and she'll crash. Not all the time, just some times.

FWIW we have found netscape doesn't play well with other apps. Would like
to recommend IE5 but that will crash itself on a bad day, good browser thou.
Appleworks runs hot and cold but the new update goes along way to
fix that finally. I'd be interested to know how often Pagemaker or PS5.5 crashes
by
themselves. We have trouble browsing with these open sometimes.
Quark4+ and appleshareIP (6.+) dont get along at all. The new quark might fix
that?
MYOB doesn't like netscape much.

The firewire 450 imac insists on trying to connect a invisible server every now
and then,
locking up up the startup until the servers folder is removed from the system
folder. 9.0.4 bug
fixed in 9.1 I think, like the one that records all your cd burning history and
memory leaks.

Our 7300/g3/400 has some trouble finding DHCP on a cold boot and will, at times,
pause for 30 seconds (seconds in the bar clock stop, mouse free) about every 5
minutes
for that reason I think, sometimes this 2 or 3 hours into work.

 Most recently, (on at least three occasions) the computer wouldn't start all
 the way up. Just to the desktop and it locks up. Then of course, you have to
 do a forced restart.

 Then, sometimes, it crashes with just one application running. It's really
 screwy.

We found 8.6 very stable with 128 ram, not good with 64 thou, go back to 8.1
I'm looking for another 128 before trying OS9.1 on the 7300. every bit helps. :)
especially with a older mac.

A zip drive formatted on 9.0.4 and the drive itself plug into the 7300 running
8.1
will work fine but the data transferred from the 8.1 onto the disk comes up
invalid when read under 9.0.4. Would this be a HFS, HFS extended problem?

There is a great depth of knowledge of all sorts on this list.
I humbly thank all new and old members for the topics shared.


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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Cameron Kaiser

 I really don't use it very much. Acutally, I hate it. But with all this 
 nasty comment about Netscape I thought I'd try it for a while and see if IE
  Express worked better (fewer crashes while working in apps) than Netscape.
 Frankly, I prefer Netscape. But if it's as buggy as everyone seems to think
 then I need to try an alternative.

Odd. Never had any trouble with 2.02 on my workstation IIci (IIci, 24MB RAM,
8*24*GC, cache card, Farallon EtherWave NuBus, 7.1 + Thread Manager).

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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Marten van de Kraats

You might consider using Eudora, by far the best e-mail app, that I know
of, and there are nice 68k versions available. In my experience Netscape
runs much nicer on 68030 macs than IE. Netscape 2.02 is the  fastest, but
on a IIfx Netscape 3 and 4 work pretty well. IE is dog slow. You might
consider iCab too, though it is not as fast as netscape 2.02.
Netscape becoming buggy starts with version 6, a ppc only product and
therefore totally off topic for this list. Godzilla runs pretty nice btw.

I really don't use it very much. Acutally, I hate it. But with all this
nasty comment about Netscape I thought I'd try it for a while and see if IE
 Express worked better (fewer crashes while working in apps) than Netscape.
Frankly, I prefer Netscape. But if it's as buggy as everyone seems to think
then I need to try an alternative.
David



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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Gregg Eshelman

--- David Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Regarding Pagmaker 6.5, it crasher quite frequently
 on it's on. I beginning
 to wonder if I should have stayed with my old friend
 Pagemaker 6.0. PM 6.5
 crashed this morning as I was attempting to run
 Outlook Express.
 David

Its always so much fun to have your Mac say...

Umm, this application just quit itself and I don't
know why, maybe I do but it would just confuse you
if I told you. Why don't you try running it again and
see if it does that again?
Woops! It quit itself again. Have another go-round?
Hey! Look at that, its running!

I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.

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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Amber Rhea

on 7/25/01 1:37 PM, (Vintage Macs) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I really don't use it very much. Acutally, I hate it. But with all this
 nasty comment about Netscape I thought I'd try it for a while and see if IE
  Express worked better (fewer crashes while working in apps) than Netscape.
 Frankly, I prefer Netscape. But if it's as buggy as everyone seems to think
 then I need to try an alternative.
 David

I prefer IE and Outlook Express. I've had almost no problems with crashes. I
used to use Netscape for web and email but I actually had more problems with
Netscape than with M$ (sad to say).

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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Kyle Hansen



Gregg Eshelman wrote:

 I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.

-671 is a connection proccesses error usually associated with an Open
Transport crash.

Kyle H. Hansen

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browsers and email on vintage Macs (was Re: Most stable OS)

2001-07-25 Thread Amber Rhea

on 7/25/01 4:21 PM, (Vintage Macs) at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 I prefer IE and Outlook Express. I've had almost no problems with crashes. I
 used to use Netscape for web and email but I actually had more problems with
 Netscape than with M$ (sad to say).
 
 
 And you run these programs on a 68030 mac?

Oh, heavens no! You almost gave me heart failure there. :) I should have
been more clear. People were discussing their PowerMacs, so I thought I'd
chip in; I run IE and Outlook on my G4. On my Color Classic I run Netscape 2
and use NiftyTelnet for email. On my Classic I run NCSA Mosaic 1.03, and I
have Eudora Lite 1.5.5 installed, though I rarely check email from that
machine. Netscape 2, Eudora Lite, and NiftyTelnet are all also present on
the SE/30.

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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Steve Moody

At 12:20 PM -0700 7/25/2001, Kyle Hansen wrote:
   I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.

-671 is a connection proccesses error usually associated with an Open
Transport crash.

   1) Where can I find a list of error codes and what they mean?

   2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's 
ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly. 
Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error 
codes.  Windows 95 comes close, however.
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Errors on the Mac (was Re: Most stable OS)

2001-07-25 Thread the pickle

At 20:29 -0400 on 25/07/01, Steve Moody wrote:

At 12:20 PM -0700 7/25/2001, Kyle Hansen wrote:
   I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.

-671 is a connection proccesses error usually associated with an Open
Transport crash.

   1) Where can I find a list of error codes and what they mean?

Try a Google search for Apple Error Codes.

The TIL has a good bit of information too.

   2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error

It wasn't always that way.  Mac error codes usually are lower-level things
than those problems that would generate an error in DOS/Windoze.

For example, try removing a floppy on a DOS machine and then try writing to
the A: drive.  Error reading drive A.  Abort/Retry/Fail?  On a Mac, you
would simply get the Please insert the disk message, which makes a
helluva lot more sense.

Example again: the general protection fault in Windoze, which is just a
blanket error that usually doesn't specify anything.  At least with an
error number you know what you might want to look for.

It's been too long since I tried to write to a locked floppy in DOS or
Windoze, so I don't remember exactly what happens, but I seem to recall
that it's not nearly as friendly as This floppy is locked.

Most Mac error codes that actually get codes instead of explanations are
very obscure things that don't happen much.  In 13 years of using Macs,
I've never seen a -671 error.  Close to (maybe more than) 90% of what I've
seen has been Type 1, 2, 3, 10, and 119, the last of which (#119) were all
due to Stuffit Expander being poorly written and doing stupid things with
the FCB allocation table in Mac OS 8.5 and up.

I could probably come up with a lot more examples.  DOS and Windoze are
*not* user-friendly with their errors.
_
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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-25 Thread Andrew W. Hill

At 12:20 PM -0700 7/25/2001, Kyle Hansen wrote:
I'm still trying to find out what a -671 error is.

-671 is a connection proccesses error usually associated with an Open
Transport crash.

1) Where can I find a list of error codes and what they mean?

Install MACSBug.  Or rather, get MacsBugApp.  You can't hurt your 
computer too bad with that.
Open it and type Error #-671 and it'll tell ya.

2) One thing I'll never understand is why the Macintosh, with it's
ease of use, has always had error codes that are so user unfriendly.
Even DOS has no error message as unfriendly and Macintosh Error
codes.  Windows 95 comes close, however.

Most people don't care about the error codes.  The only ones that 
should ever occur would be 0 and 1... maybe 4.  The others aren't too 
common or could easily be bypassed by a programmer (noFPU for 
instance).

Aqua

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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-24 Thread Michael J. Flaherty

 I have lots of FINDER crashes

Try allocating more RAM to the finder, an operation that requires the
FinderFixer control panel or something similar.  Download it here.

http://www.hidacc.av.org/pages/suggest_fw_and_sw.html#Finder%20Fixer

MJF


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Re: Most stable OS

2001-07-24 Thread Steve Moody

At 8:26 AM -0500 7/24/2001, David Robinson wrote:
Hey speaking of the most stable OS around, I have a PM 8500 with a XLR
G3 Upgrade running at 333 mhz and 240 mgs of RAM. I have lots of FINDER
crashes with System 9.1. Anybody know what to do about this stupid
problem. I have already tried that trashing the finder bit and
installing a new one. It' don't work!

   It may not be the Finder that is causing the crash.  The real 
problem might be causing the Finder to crash.  Disable all the non-OS 
extensions/Control Panels.  Then, see if it crashes.
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Re: Most Stable OS

2001-07-24 Thread Marten van de Kraats

Wait a minute It just happened again. This time I was working in
Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape open, working a photo
from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was editing the photo at
the time of the crash.) This is when most of my crashes occur.
David

Wait a minute indeed... Every time this subject turns up I take a
look vaguely hoping somebody has something really interesting to say
about some version of the macintosh operating system, but everytime I
read boring messages about adobe apps crashing. Tell me something
new. Adobe is pretty famous for its buggy software, and we all know
that 9.1 gives plenty of incompatibility with older software. I have
to deal with stuff like that on a daily basis at work. In my
experience you can eliminate most problems by using a very clean and
basic system. That is what I do to run eg. quark 3.31 on 9.1. I also
avoid the problem by running old apps on old macs with old systems.
Works like a charm.
BTW There is only one really stable macintosh os and that is os x,
totally off topic.
The macintosh operating systems I use are 6.08, 7.1, 7.6.1, 9.1 and
10.0.4. I hardly experience crashes with any of them because I use
software that works well with them and I keep my system folders very
clean and basic.

Marten
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Re: Most Stable OS

2001-07-24 Thread James S Jones

Part of the problem with Netscape 2.0 to 4.7x is that it was designed to be
internally multithreaded, using a Netscape thread manager, rather than a
system one*. The root of this came from Mac System 7 and 16-bit Windows. Those
systems didn't have thread managers. The result is a monstrously monolithic
and huge application, which uses so many resources that it can block the
system I/O queues, even on multithreaded, pre-emptive multitasking systems
like OS/2 or Win9x (although perhaps not NT). The system has to be rebooted
because you can't get back to the Finder/WorkPlace Shell/Explorer to kill it
when it hangs.

To their credit, this design provided some real benefits on a 68k Mac. I can
be downloading something while sending an email or reading a web page, etc.

*I think NS 4.x actually uses a system thread manager extension for OS 7.5.5
and earlier.

Gregg Eshelman wrote:
 
 --- David Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Wait a minute It just happened again. This time
  I was working in
  Photoshop 5.5 with Pagemaker 6.5 open and Netscape
  open, working a photo
  from an internet download into Photoshop. (Î was
  editing the photo at
  the time of the crash.) This is when most of my
  crashes occur.
  David
 
 Netscape has a set of bugs that it has contained
 virtually unchanged since at least version 2.0.
 Their programmers have shown zero interest in
 fixing any of those classic bugs, most of which
 cause it to crash and usually destabilize the OS,
 Mac or Windows, doesn't matter with Netscape.
 On the Mac, I actually prefer Internet Explorer.
 I have to use Netscape at work because our customer
 database will not work properly with IE.

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