RE: [Vo]:In a nutshell the problem is this. Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
In a nutshell the problem is this: 1) We want to preserve the charge on the tank in stop-start situations 2) (Obviously the available work eventually venting to the atmosphere will be less than the potential energy stored in the tank. This is not the question for those not sharp enough to understand what is going on. You can't turn 100% of the pressurized energy into work) 3) When driving a certain amount will be lost to wind, rolling resistance etc. Since this is low speed it ain't much. 4) It is fair to say that in short stop-start conditions most of the kinetic energy at the wheels ends up in the brakes as heat. 5) There is no law preventing us from conducting most of that heat back to the tank but the difference in temperatures and ratios of the heat capacities of the brakes to the tank. On engineering terms 'all' the heat could go back to the tank if the brakes had low heat capacity and were very hot. We could elect to send the heat back with a heat engine and compressor but heat flow does this more gracefully. Not all dissipative heat flow is a dead end for engineers. 6) Imagine a continuous stop-start cycle where we can compute the average energy out from the tank and the average energy back into it. It would seem that if the outflow from the tank is O and the inflow is I, then the new outflow is O - I. 7) Naively 6) should preserve the life of the tank charge: The tank temperature is linear in I, E = mcT And the work from the tank is f(T) and nRTln P1/P2 for an isothermal process at least. So linear in T too. If the whole plant function was very sensitive to the tank temperature (higher order terms in T) then the process would be worthwhile. 8) In the steady state the assumption at 6) is probably correct because of (7) 9) Realistically stop-start cycles won't be 'regular'. The temperature will not reach equilibrium and there will be very little change in the tank temperature at next power demand despite our feedback. In short the thing would be sluggish. It probably would be better to have a SMALL high pressure reserve tank to capture the braking energy that then rapidly give it out on the next power demand. 2pm and that probably is the answer without detailed work. May look at it again in a few days.
RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Now a colleague of mine who actually works on N2(l) engines says that the practice is to have a small high pressure reserve tank for regenerative braking. So this has been thought about. Yes he says, the tank as you cram it gets hot but he's never thought about the problem of feeding back to the tank. So worth looking at still, I guess. Feeling through the problem, if the tank is very large its temperature will drop ever so slightly from the work, W. The regen-heat input would raise the tank temperature linearily (mcT) and say for isothermal expansion W = nRTln(P1/P2) so that is linear too (in T) and it would be worthwhile to feedback the regen heat. Now P1>P2 so write ln(P1/P2) as ln( (P2+P) / P2) so ln(1+x) = 1 -x^2/2 + x^3/3... The point is P2 will be a function of T and the expression nRTln(P1/P2) might not end up "linear enough" in T and the decline in work output from the decline in temperature of the tank may not be compensated for, much, by feeding back the waste heat. Then one must put in latency as the heat has to flow and equilibrate in the tank and we are considering a stop-start scenario. A sudden pulse of heat to the outside of the tank may have very little effect (or time to) on the pressure output from the tank. It may be that the combined regeneration system and engine would just be too lethargic in response to add any significant benefit. This is what my colleague was hinting at. So the high pressure, SMALL capture reserve tank, even though it gets hot still works out better in the end. It's late, I'm tired. What seemed an obvious idea is in fact rather involved. Usually most problems need a lot of working through and mathematical modelling to see if there is any point. -Original Message- From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 29 October 2008 01:06 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! I'll work it out for you tomorrow after I've done some main work. I map out how I will calculate in the morning. It's not that trivial and runs something like this, with these assumptions: A) Big tank, connected by isolating valve to small cylinder of the engine. B) Consider run between tank and cylinder is small (no volume) but we can ascribe temperature to both tank and cylinder. 1) Cylinder TDC no volume for argument's sake. Start at P1 V1 T1 Expand adiabatically (quick) to P2 V2 T2 Calculate the work 2) Middle, P2 V2 T2 Isolate tank. So tank at P2 V1 T2 Cylinder at P2 V2a T2 V2a = V2 - Vtank = V2 - V1 Let cylinder expand adiabatically to P3 V3 T3 Calculate the work. This is part of the engine output 3) Bottom. Let cylinder vent to atmosphere so Pa V4 T4 in another adiabatic (quick process) Calculate the work. This is the remainder of the engine output So the above is like the little kernel of a subroutine to calculate output in ONE cycle if you know the end points. The assumptions about adiabatics and polytropic processes I need to watch carefully. Both tank and cylinder run cold below Ta (ambient). Let's say the tank is lagged. The cylinder isn't and has a heat flux coming in from Ta. Let's say it reaches some STEADY temperature below Ta but above Ttank. Run the calculation and see how the tank cools and see how the power output of the engine falls in time. Now model some heat flux into the tank at STEADY state and run the steady state calculations between start conditions and end to work out the engine power. Now see how with regenerative braking that in stop-start situations we can raise the temperature of the tank and recover waste energy. It arrests it tendency to get colder and colder as it does work there by prolonging the lifetime of the charge. You've seen it say when you empty a calor gas cylinder it gets a crust of ice around it (also liquid to gas phase change). If the cylinder is warm the gas will spew out faster and that is what is driving the compressed air engine. It's a little bit involved but if you have the engineering intuition you have probably seen what I'm getting at already but if you are Jones has-Beene-never-was you just insult people to gain cheap points. -Original Message- From: Michael Foster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 22:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! I take it none of you guys has been in Indian traffic or seen the typical vehicle mix. A compressed air car would be perfect for India. Even on the highways the speed limit is 60 kph, roughly 40 mph. It's never that high in the cities. Imagine the type of traffic you get when no one pays any attention to the marked traffic lanes except the sacred cattle who line up facing the flow of vehicles, looking rather placid and pleased with themselves. It's not unusual to see a family of five riding a motor scooter. Combine that with the autorickshaws with a capacity of four but stuffed with up to 20 people and various animal powered carts in addition to conv
RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
I'll work it out for you tomorrow after I've done some main work. I map out how I will calculate in the morning. It's not that trivial and runs something like this, with these assumptions: A) Big tank, connected by isolating valve to small cylinder of the engine. B) Consider run between tank and cylinder is small (no volume) but we can ascribe temperature to both tank and cylinder. 1) Cylinder TDC no volume for argument's sake. Start at P1 V1 T1 Expand adiabatically (quick) to P2 V2 T2 Calculate the work 2) Middle, P2 V2 T2 Isolate tank. So tank at P2 V1 T2 Cylinder at P2 V2a T2 V2a = V2 - Vtank = V2 - V1 Let cylinder expand adiabatically to P3 V3 T3 Calculate the work. This is part of the engine output 3) Bottom. Let cylinder vent to atmosphere so Pa V4 T4 in another adiabatic (quick process) Calculate the work. This is the remainder of the engine output So the above is like the little kernel of a subroutine to calculate output in ONE cycle if you know the end points. The assumptions about adiabatics and polytropic processes I need to watch carefully. Both tank and cylinder run cold below Ta (ambient). Let's say the tank is lagged. The cylinder isn't and has a heat flux coming in from Ta. Let's say it reaches some STEADY temperature below Ta but above Ttank. Run the calculation and see how the tank cools and see how the power output of the engine falls in time. Now model some heat flux into the tank at STEADY state and run the steady state calculations between start conditions and end to work out the engine power. Now see how with regenerative braking that in stop-start situations we can raise the temperature of the tank and recover waste energy. It arrests it tendency to get colder and colder as it does work there by prolonging the lifetime of the charge. You've seen it say when you empty a calor gas cylinder it gets a crust of ice around it (also liquid to gas phase change). If the cylinder is warm the gas will spew out faster and that is what is driving the compressed air engine. It's a little bit involved but if you have the engineering intuition you have probably seen what I'm getting at already but if you are Jones has-Beene-never-was you just insult people to gain cheap points. -Original Message- From: Michael Foster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 22:30 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! I take it none of you guys has been in Indian traffic or seen the typical vehicle mix. A compressed air car would be perfect for India. Even on the highways the speed limit is 60 kph, roughly 40 mph. It's never that high in the cities. Imagine the type of traffic you get when no one pays any attention to the marked traffic lanes except the sacred cattle who line up facing the flow of vehicles, looking rather placid and pleased with themselves. It's not unusual to see a family of five riding a motor scooter. Combine that with the autorickshaws with a capacity of four but stuffed with up to 20 people and various animal powered carts in addition to conventional autos, and you can imagine that the traffic doesn't move too fast. Any vehicle that could start and stop in such traffic without the inefficiencies of an ICE would be a boon to the average Indian citizen and without the expense of a hybrid. The reduction in air pollution would be an improvement in the major cities, where most of the small cars are diesel powered. M.
RE: [Vo]:What happend to our TEC expert?
It's good but I can do better. I didn't feel the need to comment. -Original Message- From: Jones Beene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 21:57 To: vortex Subject: [Vo]:What happend to our TEC expert? There was a time, not to long ago, when Remi was somewhat of a resident expert on thermoelectric conversion - TEC - and he has a page to prove it: http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/Thermoelectric_Conversion.htm ... so Remi - given that you are not shy with opinions on all kinds of things and issues for which your are less conversant - may I ask why you have neglected to comment on the JTEC: http://www.johnsonems.com/jhtec.html Your expertise here would not doubt be invaluable to the huddled masses Jones
RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
I take it none of you guys has been in Indian traffic or seen the typical vehicle mix. A compressed air car would be perfect for India. Even on the highways the speed limit is 60 kph, roughly 40 mph. It's never that high in the cities. Imagine the type of traffic you get when no one pays any attention to the marked traffic lanes except the sacred cattle who line up facing the flow of vehicles, looking rather placid and pleased with themselves. It's not unusual to see a family of five riding a motor scooter. Combine that with the autorickshaws with a capacity of four but stuffed with up to 20 people and various animal powered carts in addition to conventional autos, and you can imagine that the traffic doesn't move too fast. Any vehicle that could start and stop in such traffic without the inefficiencies of an ICE would be a boon to the average Indian citizen and without the expense of a hybrid. The reduction in air pollution would be an improvement in the major cities, where most of the small cars are diesel powered. M.
[Vo]:What happend to our TEC expert?
There was a time, not to long ago, when Remi was somewhat of a resident expert on thermoelectric conversion - TEC - and he has a page to prove it: http://uk.geocities.com/remicornwall/Thermoelectric_Conversion.htm ... so Remi - given that you are not shy with opinions on all kinds of things and issues for which your are less conversant - may I ask why you have neglected to comment on the JTEC: http://www.johnsonems.com/jhtec.html Your expertise here would not doubt be invaluable to the huddled masses Jones
RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
In fact in the limit, 'all' the wasted braking energy could be coupled back because there is no limit on how hot you can make the interface plate. Imagine the car is braking pretty hard for a few seconds then power output would be say 100kW and the disks would glow red hot (say 600C). If you chose to get this power electronically and coupled through a very small volume, it would get say white hot, plasma hot. Fundamentally 'all' the wasted braking power can be coupled back. On the other hand if you used a heat engine between red heat and air temp to run a compressor then by Carnot you'd waste some of this energy. (This is towards the latter half of my thesis. There is nothing 'fundamental' about a Carnot cycle apart from the fact that it has two reservoirs and so always rejects heat to the lower. You can form one reservoir heat engines One thinks outside the box) -Original Message- From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 21:12 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! It's obvious. The air is a storage medium which has been compressed adiabatically then allowed to cool. As it cools the pressure goes down and the available work decreases. In operation it will cool below ambient (and get caked in ice) reducing the pressure still further and the useful work. Couple the hot disc brakes to the cylinders (some kind of circulation system or do it electronically) and recoup that energy which just gets wasted anyway. Very good on stop start urban cycles. You know they give out patents for that type of thing. "Improvements relating to compressed air engines". Piece of piss to do. -Original Message- From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 20:51 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! Seriously about the ice... Could not a form of regenerative braking be achieved? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 20:42 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! I would like to suggest that we no longer refer to the infernal combustion engine as an ICE. Water ice is such a marvelous and beautiful material and is degraded by the acronym. I believe it would be more appropriate to refer to the combustion engine as an IC engine. "Icky" better describes the device and its byproducts. Regards, Terry On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Remi Cornwall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> OK, perhaps I was too power hungry. > ROFL > > You get lots of ICE when you release compressed air! > > > On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>> A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and >>> hills in the US. >> >> The Prius ICE delivers 70 hp max. >> >> As Stephen A. Lawrence pointed out, small cars such as the older VWs >> had 35 hp motors, and kept up with traffic. However they were kind >> of dangerous at highway speeds. Lightweight yet safe vehicles could >> be developed using advanced materials and techniques. >> >> My 1994 Geo Metro, which one reviewer affectionately called a >> "hamster powered tin can on wheels" has a 55 hp motor which was >> barely enough for U.S. highways when the car was new. >> >> - Jed >> > > > >
RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
It's obvious. The air is a storage medium which has been compressed adiabatically then allowed to cool. As it cools the pressure goes down and the available work decreases. In operation it will cool below ambient (and get caked in ice) reducing the pressure still further and the useful work. Couple the hot disc brakes to the cylinders (some kind of circulation system or do it electronically) and recoup that energy which just gets wasted anyway. Very good on stop start urban cycles. You know they give out patents for that type of thing. "Improvements relating to compressed air engines". Piece of piss to do. -Original Message- From: Remi Cornwall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 20:51 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! Seriously about the ice... Could not a form of regenerative braking be achieved? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 20:42 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! I would like to suggest that we no longer refer to the infernal combustion engine as an ICE. Water ice is such a marvelous and beautiful material and is degraded by the acronym. I believe it would be more appropriate to refer to the combustion engine as an IC engine. "Icky" better describes the device and its byproducts. Regards, Terry On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Remi Cornwall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> OK, perhaps I was too power hungry. > ROFL > > You get lots of ICE when you release compressed air! > > > On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>> A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and >>> hills in the US. >> >> The Prius ICE delivers 70 hp max. >> >> As Stephen A. Lawrence pointed out, small cars such as the older VWs >> had 35 hp motors, and kept up with traffic. However they were kind >> of dangerous at highway speeds. Lightweight yet safe vehicles could >> be developed using advanced materials and techniques. >> >> My 1994 Geo Metro, which one reviewer affectionately called a >> "hamster powered tin can on wheels" has a 55 hp motor which was >> barely enough for U.S. highways when the car was new. >> >> - Jed >> > > > >
RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Seriously about the ice... Could not a form of regenerative braking be achieved? -Original Message- From: Terry Blanton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 20:42 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air! I would like to suggest that we no longer refer to the infernal combustion engine as an ICE. Water ice is such a marvelous and beautiful material and is degraded by the acronym. I believe it would be more appropriate to refer to the combustion engine as an IC engine. "Icky" better describes the device and its byproducts. Regards, Terry On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Remi Cornwall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> OK, perhaps I was too power hungry. > ROFL > > You get lots of ICE when you release compressed air! > > > On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>> A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and >>> hills in the US. >> >> The Prius ICE delivers 70 hp max. >> >> As Stephen A. Lawrence pointed out, small cars such as the older VWs >> had 35 hp motors, and kept up with traffic. However they were kind >> of dangerous at highway speeds. Lightweight yet safe vehicles could >> be developed using advanced materials and techniques. >> >> My 1994 Geo Metro, which one reviewer affectionately called a >> "hamster powered tin can on wheels" has a 55 hp motor which was >> barely enough for U.S. highways when the car was new. >> >> - Jed >> > > > >
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
I would like to suggest that we no longer refer to the infernal combustion engine as an ICE. Water ice is such a marvelous and beautiful material and is degraded by the acronym. I believe it would be more appropriate to refer to the combustion engine as an IC engine. "Icky" better describes the device and its byproducts. Regards, Terry On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 3:32 PM, Remi Cornwall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> OK, perhaps I was too power hungry. > ROFL > > You get lots of ICE when you release compressed air! > > > On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > >> Edmund Storms wrote: >> >>> A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and >>> hills in the US. >> >> The Prius ICE delivers 70 hp max. >> >> As Stephen A. Lawrence pointed out, small cars such as the older VWs >> had 35 hp motors, and kept up with traffic. However they were kind >> of dangerous at highway speeds. Lightweight yet safe vehicles could >> be developed using advanced materials and techniques. >> >> My 1994 Geo Metro, which one reviewer affectionately called a >> "hamster powered tin can on wheels" has a 55 hp motor which was >> barely enough for U.S. highways when the car was new. >> >> - Jed >> > > > >
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Edmund Storms wrote: > OK, perhaps I was too power hungry. However, my point is that the ICE in > an air car would have to be more than a toy. If the ICE is equal to > that of a Prius, which is big enough, why not buy a Prius or the cheep > Chinese version? I dunno -- I've never driven a compressed air powered car, but I would guess that they're a little like steam engines: Maximum torque at 0 RPM. That might make for unexpectedly good "perceived" performance, which might translate into better perceived performance per dollar than with the (far more complex) Prius design.
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Edmund Storms wrote: If the ICE is equal to that of a Prius, which is big enough, why not buy a Prius or the cheep Chinese version? Well, the air motor might be cheaper, and it has a remarkably long range at low speeds. This kind of series hybrid engine design is simpler than a parallel design such as the Prius. (By "parallel" I mean both the ICE and electric engines directly power the drivetrain at the same time.) Because it is simpler it may be cheaper and more reliable. May be, but who knows? The series-hybrid GM Volt should also be simpler but it is way more expensive. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
> OK, perhaps I was too power hungry. ROFL You get lots of ICE when you release compressed air! On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: > Edmund Storms wrote: > >> A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and >> hills in the US. > > The Prius ICE delivers 70 hp max. > > As Stephen A. Lawrence pointed out, small cars such as the older VWs > had 35 hp motors, and kept up with traffic. However they were kind > of dangerous at highway speeds. Lightweight yet safe vehicles could > be developed using advanced materials and techniques. > > My 1994 Geo Metro, which one reviewer affectionately called a > "hamster powered tin can on wheels" has a 55 hp motor which was > barely enough for U.S. highways when the car was new. > > - Jed >
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
OK, perhaps I was too power hungry. However, my point is that the ICE in an air car would have to be more than a toy. If the ICE is equal to that of a Prius, which is big enough, why not buy a Prius or the cheep Chinese version? Ed On Oct 28, 2008, at 2:13 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and hills in the US. The Prius ICE delivers 70 hp max. As Stephen A. Lawrence pointed out, small cars such as the older VWs had 35 hp motors, and kept up with traffic. However they were kind of dangerous at highway speeds. Lightweight yet safe vehicles could be developed using advanced materials and techniques. My 1994 Geo Metro, which one reviewer affectionately called a "hamster powered tin can on wheels" has a 55 hp motor which was barely enough for U.S. highways when the car was new. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Edmund Storms wrote: A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and hills in the US. The Prius ICE delivers 70 hp max. As Stephen A. Lawrence pointed out, small cars such as the older VWs had 35 hp motors, and kept up with traffic. However they were kind of dangerous at highway speeds. Lightweight yet safe vehicles could be developed using advanced materials and techniques. My 1994 Geo Metro, which one reviewer affectionately called a "hamster powered tin can on wheels" has a 55 hp motor which was barely enough for U.S. highways when the car was new. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Edmund Storms wrote: > > ... A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet > the needs of speed and hills in the US. This is a startling statement. I submit that the word "needs" is an UNDEFINED TERM in the sentence, as is the word "normal". Speed limits are no higher than they were a few decades ago, and the hills haven't gotten any steeper. How come people used to drive VW Rabbits, VW Beetles, and assorted other compacts with less than 100 HP, and somehow managed to negotiate both hills and highways? Do cars, for some reason, "need" more power to climb the same hills today? (Must be the obesity epidemic!) How come Hyundais were introduced with substantially less than 100 HP (with speed limits as high as today, and hills as steep as today) and they sold so well that Hyundai became an overnight success? I suppose all these cars must have been "abnormal", or they must have had "less power than they needed" but really, all that supposition does is point up the fact that the way you used the terms "normal" and "need", they are undefined placeholders, which, I submit, just replace the words "I like" and "people might want". Certainly, all else being equal, most people want more power, more interior space, and more "stuff" in the car (electric windows, radio, tape deck, moon roof, driving lights, cartop carrier, trunk space, etc). That is not equivalent to saying that a car with less power, less interior space, or less "stuff" is in some way "abnormal", and it does not in any way give meaning to your undefined term "needs". In particular, all else is *not* equal, and more power, space, and stuff must be traded off against other costs. Incidentally, the actual value I've heard for how much power a car "needs" to keep up at highway speeds is more like 15 to 20 horsepower for cruising, and somewhat more for accelerating. A VW Rabbit or Bug with a 35 horse engine could cruise just fine on the highway, as I know from direct experience (the Rabbit was a diesel, which gives it a leg up on low-speed torque, but a compressed air motor probably has an even bigger advantage in that area).
Re: [Vo]:The new administration and cold fusion
Howdy Jones, Energy is the mother's milk of our present day society and economy. Think of a hungry infant and the fuss they raise when it's feeding time and try to imagine a major national energy " lurch" that would make the 1973 experience look like childs play. I can understand Ed Storm's concern and his sense of urgency. Will it take a similar " event" to get past the "politics" of energy planning? The laws of human nature dictate such a scenario. Another scenario to consider is a shutdown of nationwide communications. We would be " in the dark" about "what's in the dark" Richard
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Ed sez: As you say, it is another way to build a hybrid. However, this one has two engines, one running from compressed air and another running using gasoline to pump more air into the first engine. Is compressing air more efficient than putting electric energy in a battery? I think not. I wuz wonderin the same thing. OTOH, for interstate traveling could they use the ICE to get the vehicle up to interstate speeds then cruze 100% on the compressed air tank for extended distances? Seems to me that such a configuration ought to be be more fuel efficient that what we do now. I'd love CAV technology to get at least a fair shake. That seems likely since the article goes on to say: > There will be plants in nearly every state, based on the > number of drivers in the state. California will have as many > as 17 air car manufacturing plants, and there'll be around 12 > in Florida, eight in New York, four in Georgia, while two in > Connecticut will serve that state and Rhode Island. OTOH, like Ed, the first blogger (posted by "Nomen" at the end of the report) did seem to express a number of valid doubts and criticisms. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
On Oct 28, 2008, at 12:03 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote: Edmund Storms wrote: I suppose a top speed of 35 mph on flat roads with a small car makes technological sense and perhaps practical sense in India. However, who in the US would want such a toy? First of all, if we can judge by the success of Zenn and a couple other companies selling gussied-up golf carts, the answer to your question is "Lots of people". I suggest people who need only vert local off road transportation with continue to buy the cheeper gussied golf cart. Anyone who wants to drive with the big boys will want something that can hold it's own in that dog eat dog world. Second of all, the article didn't say it was limited to 35 MPH -- it said it was limited to 35 MPH with a 60 mile range on *air* *alone*. But it has an onboard ICE to give it a boost when needed. The faster it goes the more power the system must have regardless of the amount of stored energy. A normal car needs at least 100 hp to meet the needs of speed and hills in the US. This means it needs a big enough engine to do the job once the initial energy is used up. Now we are looking at a "normal" car that carries a small extra tank of energy that does not come from burning gasoline, just like a hybrid that uses batteries instead of an air tank. As you say, it is another way to build a hybrid. However, this one has two engines, one running from compressed air and another running using gasoline to pump more air into the first engine. Is compressing air more efficient than putting electric energy in a battery? I think not. Ed Quote: The air car can tool along at a top speed of 35 mph for some 60 miles or so on a tank of compressed air, a sufficient distance for 80% of consumers to commute to work and back and complete daily chores. On highways, the CAV can cruise at interstate speeds for nearly 800 miles with a small motor that compresses outside air to keep the tank filled. The motor isn't finicky about fuel. It will burn gasoline or diesel as well as biodiesel, ethanol or vegetable oil. "At interstate speeds", the man says. Seems unlikely, given the description, but that does seem to be the claim. All in all it's another approach to building a hybrid, and maybe not such a bad one.
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
Edmund Storms wrote: > I suppose a top speed of 35 mph on flat roads with a small car makes > technological sense and perhaps practical sense in India. However, who > in the US would want such a toy? First of all, if we can judge by the success of Zenn and a couple other companies selling gussied-up golf carts, the answer to your question is "Lots of people". Second of all, the article didn't say it was limited to 35 MPH -- it said it was limited to 35 MPH with a 60 mile range on *air* *alone*. But it has an onboard ICE to give it a boost when needed. Quote: > The air car can tool along at a top speed of 35 mph for some 60 miles > or so on a tank of compressed air, a sufficient distance for 80% of > consumers to commute to work and back and complete daily chores. > > On highways, the CAV can cruise at interstate speeds for nearly 800 > miles with a small motor that compresses outside air to keep the tank > filled. The motor isn't finicky about fuel. It will burn gasoline or > diesel as well as biodiesel, ethanol or vegetable oil. "At interstate speeds", the man says. Seems unlikely, given the description, but that does seem to be the claim. All in all it's another approach to building a hybrid, and maybe not such a bad one.
Re: [Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
I suppose a top speed of 35 mph on flat roads with a small car makes technological sense and perhaps practical sense in India. However, who in the US would want such a toy? Ed On Oct 28, 2008, at 11:19 AM, OrionWorks wrote: See: http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/states_and_air_cars_081028.html http://tinyurl.com/5wekhl Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Tata Motors - full of compressed air!
See: http://www.kiplinger.com/businessresource/forecast/archive/states_and_air_cars_081028.html http://tinyurl.com/5wekhl Regards Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
[Vo]:Laws of economics
Thomas, I find this amazing: these very trained, usually journeyman, uncreative type physicists would be the first to tell people in the new energy that you can't create energy out of nothing, do this do that. Yet they suspend sane ideas of conservation laws, mass action and logic and then go and join the banking sector and spend their time coming up with complex financial instruments which are trying to do the impossible. May be a few laws of economics along the lines of physics are required to remind them: 1) delta W -> 0 as t -> 0. Wealth (W) cannot be created out of thin air in an infinitesimal amount of time. 2) W > 0 as t > 0. Humans displaying more intelligence than pond life (just) can improve their lot over time and hence wealth can increase. 3) VW.t <= H You can borrow or create Virtual Wealth on the never never for a short period of time given by H'idiots constant but the cosmic censor is watching and wants it back some day. This is known as the HirePurchasenberg Certain Trouble Principle. 4) Wealth locked up in assets is Concretised Wealth and is ordered, coherent, meaningful Wealth. 5) When Concretised Wealth is liquidated it becomes Kinetic Wealth or Cash. 6) Releasing a lot of Wealth on the market creates the Potential to make more Wealth. 7) The Law of General Increase of Surplus Cash and Disorder (Inflation) is not a nice one. It is better to tie up wealth in more ordered things like Concretised Wealth. 7a) If wealth is released in a rapid/fool hardy manner it actually dissipates Wealth. This is known as the CantDo Law. Wealth creation processes are thus CantDo Law limited. When Kinetic Wealth is released gradually, realistically by mature educated people in slow processes (as opposed to get rich quick processes) it has the potential to do a lot of good. However this requires patience which is a higher human function (see pond life). 8) Path Independence: When you are creating more Wealth it doesn't really matter what path you take in expressing this as long as it is constructive, improves the lot of mankind and the planet and is done in an ethical way. However complex financial instruments (applying 'complex' pseudo mathematical operators and procedures on the measures of Wealth) to give you the Expectation of More Wealth actually does nothing useful. Thus 'Hedging it', 'betting it', 'collateralising it' actually in themselves don't increase Wealth, That sirs requires Talent. -Original Message- From: thomas malloy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 October 2008 02:46 To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Anti cold fusion and anti-HOT-fusion book Remi Cornwall wrote: >Last one from me for a bit... (probably) > > >>From: thomas malloy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> >>My nephew thinks that laser fusion projects such as the ITER, will work. >>OTOH, he's savvy enough not to spend his own money on this research. >>He'd happily spend your (tax) money on it however. >> >> >I guess with a numerate higher degree you can retrain as a financial >engineer!! Black-Scholes and all that!! No, no, I know several people who >did that, tasted the highlife for a bit and now, oh dear. > >Masters of Disasters (MaD) or Paper Hanging Device (PhD) in "Financial >Engineering" > > That's exactly what my Nephew is studying to be, they call them Quats. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
Re: [Vo]:The new administration and cold fusion
Thanks for that comment Thomas, but my credentials are nowhere close to Ed's - and consist of mainly having been around the scene for 19 years with a strong interest (60 hour weeks) in trying to understand what is happening on a much broader front than LENR alone. However, having said that - If given the chance to influence funding, I would probably disappoint many of the entrenched researchers, even Ed, who want (correctly) to fully understand what is happening before moving on.. I think the 'big picture' situation is so dire that we must use a large chunk of whatever funding comes along in a calculated gamble - such that even if we do not understand the situation well enough, we do know enough to jump-start the the "applied technology" by going ahead with actual devices. There would still be basic R&D but there would also be a concurrent jump-start program. By that, I would suggest water-heaters and home heating as the initial product and solicit designs from present manufacturers of those products who were willing to work with people like Ed to try to leap over the normally accepted way these things proceed. In other words we would use the Manhattan project of a model for how to cut 20 years off the traditional process (of going from lab to factory floor in small well-understood steps) - and allow the project to use maximum over time and double shifts and expect a commercial product in six months. It will not be perfect, but from then on, we use the Model-T approach of of weekly improvements. We must be able to do this in the face of falling oil prices as well, as that is a false-enticement to go slower. OPEC already pulled that trick out of the hat in the early seventies. This proto-plan would also mean that Mills/BLP would be in a favored position in such a scenario - since at least they have demonstrated something that points in the firm direction of a water heater using alternative fuel. However, it might be necessary to compensate BLP for expected future patent royalties, with or without their approval, and commandeer the IP for use by others -- in a kind of national competition. And, to the further disappointment of Mills, I would insist that he (or one of the grantees of the hydrino technology) try to run the system on deuterium, to see how that change affects things; and also to try to integrate the hydrino into a hybrid hot reactor (fission or fusion) ! Bottom line - most researchers who want to proceed with business-as-usual, even at greatly increased funding levels, better look for someone less-radical and less-frightened about of the direction our society is headed. Jones - Original Message From: thomas malloy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Edmund Storms wrote: > OK Thomas, suppose your letter is believed and answered. Exactly how > would you propose this money be spent and by whom? You can say, this > is not your concern. However, somebody has to provide the answer. > This is impossible unless the field can agree on what the consensus > thinks is the best approach. Would you want the loudest or the most I'd suggest a board of open minded people to spread the aforementioned money around. People with credentials. I'd like to nominate you and Jones Beene. --- Get FREE High Speed Internet from USFamily.Net! -- http://www.usfamily.net/mkt-freepromo.html ---
