Re: [Vo]:Elemental Ovens
It is interesting that you should wonder why E-cat systems have not been seen earlier. Over Christmas I met someone whilst out on a walk, got chatting, and found that they had been working on Palladium/Hydrogen systems in the 1960's, and had become aware that there was something odd going on. He had neither the time or authority to pursue this, and was therfore very interested when the P F thing happened a couple of decades later. He was unaware of the more recent events in Italy, and was fascinated, and not surprised by what is now happening. Nigel On 18/02/2012 00:32, Bastiaan Bergman wrote: given that thousands of scientists using billions of dollars in hydrogen and metal-hydride research (fuel cells and storage) have not stumbled upon E-Cat like processes for many years, I have to agree with you. unless, of course, the un-scientific evidence of Rossi was wrong to begin with. On Feb 17, 2012 11:41 AM, Randy Wullerrwul...@freeark.com wrote:
Re: [Vo]:Simple Genius: This Says it all!
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.comwrote: The problem with all of that is the ones who work the least are the ones with the most money. It's only a problem to you. Do you think Buffet really worked a million times harder than the average person? No, but he has a very rare talent. What Buffet does is find companies with a good business plan and good management, and he buys their stock. In the aggregate, over the course of Buffet's life, he has funneled more money into companies that use it productively, than others would have done with this money, without him. We have no idea how this may have helped improve technology, or the economy, or how it helped to bring new innovations to market. It is an unmeasurable benefit. Socialism does not mean equality, but I really don't think Buffet deserves to make a million times more just because he can shuffle stocks around. And here you're injecting your opinion into the issue. Socialism just means government ownership of business which is a lot of times more efficient than private ownership. Socialism can never be more efficient than private business because there is no accountability for the money spent. When people spend money that is taken from others by force and threats of violence, they then use it to pursue their own values in deference to the values of those from whom they took the money. They may be making themselves more efficient at pursuing their own values, but are necessarily depriving others of the ability to pursue the values held by those others, because they took the money of those others. For example, when the government creates Amtrak and subsidizes passenger rail, they do this by taking money from people by threats of violence. This deprives those people from whom they took the money of the ability to pursue their values to some degree. Now the government runs a railroad, and for those who are hired by Amtrak, their lives may be better off. If those people sought jobs from Amtrak because they love railroads then they are then able to pursue careers in a field of their choice, but only at the expense of those who were deprived of their money through force, to run Amtrak. Some customers might be better off using rail in an era when rail can't survive in the market on its own, but Amtrak was created because most people would rather fly when they travel, and those customers who'd rather fly, are simply being deprived of their money in this whole process. There is no improvement in efficiency. Engineers and scientists should get paid more while lawyers and doctors should get paid less because they are more important for society. There's no way to know who's important to society and who isn't. Importance is a value judgement. To the person saved from a terminal disease by the latest advancement in technology, that doctor might be far more important to them than the engineer who invented the eCat. Here's a question for this professor. If the majority of people are stupid enough to vote for Obama, do you think they could manage their own finances or run their own businesses? Political preference is not a determining factor in intelligence. If you had a smart person like me as leader of the country back in 1989, we'd already have LENR as our main energy source if it is real. There are not many private businesses willing to touch cold fusion, but the government can invest in it if they were smart. Again, you're interjecting your personal values into the issue. YOU may believe that LENR is a good risk for YOUR money, but here you are suggesting that you take money from others by force and threats of violence, and use it to pursue those things that match YOUR values. This has nothing to do with being smart. It has everything to do with how the lives and property of others could be expropriated by you. And if LENR is not real(which I don't think is the case)? Well, both private businesses and the government have wasted trillions on a lot of stupider things. But when businesses waste money, they waste their own money and invest it in pursuit of their own values. Government does nothing but waste money because the money it uses is taken from others by force and threats of violence. If those people from whom government took the money had their choice, they would keep their money and use it to further their own values. The point is that you can't take money from others with threats of violence and expect it to somehow 'benefit everyone', because values are personal, and the pursuit of those values can only be accomplished by the individuals that hold those values. So nothing you do with my money, taken from me by force, can benefit me, or I would freely have given you the money. I am not in favor of welfare, but government ownership of business and investments is much more efficient than private ownership. The problem is not government itself. It's the CURRENT
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
Krivit wrote: Not verified. Just reporting the facts on record. I’m trying to wrap this investigation up and finish up the loose ends. In month 12 now. Has cost me more than $50,000 in labor and expenses. Has cost the field at least a one-year delay/interference in covering real science. Then stop doing it! If this is not real science why spend any time on it? Leave it to fraud investigators. If Rossi is not real, he is unimportant. We make a big deal about him here only because we think he is real. If he is a scammer he has not scammed anyone yet as far as I know. What could be less newsworthy than an unsuccessful scam artist? - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
50K$ for that shitty investigation?!? Seriously??? 2012/2/18 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Krivit wrote: Not verified. Just reporting the facts on record. I’m trying to wrap this investigation up and finish up the loose ends. In month 12 now. Has cost me more than $50,000 in labor and expenses. Has cost the field at least a one-year delay/interference in covering real science. Then stop doing it! If this is not real science why spend any time on it? Leave it to fraud investigators. If Rossi is not real, he is unimportant. We make a big deal about him here only because we think he is real. If he is a scammer he has not scammed anyone yet as far as I know. What could be less newsworthy than an unsuccessful scam artist? - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Elemental Ovens
Nigel Dyer l...@thedyers.org.uk wrote: Over Christmas I met someone whilst out on a walk, got chatting, and found that they had been working on Palladium/Hydrogen systems in the 1960's, and had become aware that there was something odd going on. . . . In his book, Mizuno said every electrochemist knew there were puzzling thermal and nuclear anomalies with palladium deuterides. He himself observed several. However, he eventually dismissed them as experimental errors. He gives full credit to FP for following up on these things and producing them with far higher s/n ratios and reproducibility. He says this discovery is theirs, and theirs alone. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
I wrote: If he is a scammer he has not scammed anyone yet as far as I know. More to the point, Krivit has not found any victims yet either. What kind of investigation is this? He thinks he has disproved the science. I disagree, but if that is what he did, he could have done it as easily sitting in a chair at home, looking at the data. As Daniel says, what could possibly cost $50,000 about this? What has Krivit done? He has not uncovered anything that has not been reported here, as far as I know. He went all the way to Italy to report that Rossi will not let people use their own instruments and the experiment is poorly done. Rossi told me that when he invited me to visit. He said I can look but make no measurements. He described the experiment, and I thought was lousy. That took me about an hour and 6 e-mails to discover, not $50,000. I reported it here. End of story. This reminds me of Krivit's investigation of McKubre, which has revealed confusion in Krivit's own mind, but nothing in the real world. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Defkalion GT willing to accept Dick Smith's offer + Official tests info
It seems to me as Dick Smith doesn't want to understand what Defkalion offers: http://ecatnews.com/?p=2068 Where do they talk of a minimum COP of 3? They just say, that 3 will definitely be met and even surpassed... This is totally in line with the proclaimed COP of 20 and above as Defkalion originally mentioned. The COP of 3 was proposed by Mr. Smith originally somewhere... He even doesn't want to understand, why Defkalion currently just offers bare reactor tests... This seems to go exactly that way which some already imagined: They can't agree on the terms and conditions and therefore everything stays the same... I really hope that real tests begin on next friday and will be finished around february 28th, so that we soon know if this thing is real or not... I find this to be just annoying... Wolf On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 6:50 PM, Patrick Ellulellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: Dick Smith will make offer official to DGT. below his replies on http://ecatnews.com/?p=2045 Assuming it really is him. Dick Smith February 16, 2012 at 9:03 pm Yes. I am the real Dick Smith and the offer is genuine. I will contact Defkalion and organize the simple testing protocols. Does anyone have the best email address? If you wish to answer: i...@defkalion-energy.com T
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:09 PM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: The SK continues to believe that a corporate address and a factory have to be co-located. LOL! If this were true, Delaware would be an industrial behemoth: More than 900,000 business entities have their legal home in Delaware including more than 50% of all U.S. publicly-traded companies and 63% of the Fortune 500. http://corp.delaware.gov/ T
[Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
Hello group, It has come to my attention that in about 20 minutes (at 17:30 local time) a meeting between Francesco Celani and some 22passi readers in Rome, Italy will be webcast here: http://22passi.blogspot.com/2012/02/due-passi-dalle-lenr-se-ne-discute.html Unfortunately for the international audience, this event will be held in Italian language only, as far as I know. It will be possible to submit questions to Celani and others both in the blogpost or, better yet, in the live chat interface. Cheers, S.A.
RE: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
From Jed: ... As Daniel says, what could possibly cost $50,000 about this? What has Krivit done? He has not uncovered anything that has not been reported here, as far as I know. He went all the way to Italy to report that Rossi will not let people use their own instruments and the experiment is poorly done. Rossi told me that when he invited me to visit. He said I can look but make no measurements. He described the experiment, and I thought was lousy. That took me about an hour and 6 e-mails to discover, not $50,000. I reported it here. End of story. This reminds me of Krivit's investigation of McKubre, which has revealed confusion in Krivit's own mind, but nothing in the real world. IMO, Krivit is working out of habit he learned years ago. That habit is to look for what he personally perceives to be suspicious activity, and then go digging for dirt. Sometimes filthy dirt is found hiding under carpets. However, what is sometimes perceived as dirt turns out to be valid fertilizer as perceived by others. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Krivit perceives himself to be an independent investigative reporter. I beg to differ. In fact I STRONGLY disagree. When I was still one of the NET BoD directors I asked Krivit whether he was actually pursuing the role of an advocate rather than that of an independent investigative reporter. This was related to the fact that I noticed he was spending a great deal of time promoting the so-called merits of the Widom-Larsen theory out on his NET website. What did promoting the merits of the W-L theory have to do with being an independent investigative reporter? I suggested to Krivit that if he really was an advocate then for heaven's sake make it clear to everyone that you ARE an advocate (nothing wrong with that). Also, stop trying to make yourself out as independent investigative reporter. Krivit disagreed with my outlook. I think I asked the question too late. Let me explain what I mean by that. Years ago it looked to me as if Krivit became disillusioned with McKubre over certain encounters he experienced, the specifics of which I will not go into detail here. However, based on what Krivit told me it seemed pretty clear to me that Krivit's perception of McKubre (which initially was someone infallible, and as a mentor) was seriously challenged. Based on what Krivit inferred I suggested that perhaps now was an opportune time in his life to simply declare his own independence from any particular mentor, individual or organization. Unfortunately, I think I offered up the suggestion too late as far as Krivit was concerned. It soon looked to me as if Krivit had already switched his allegiance from McKubre ( possibly Storms as well) over to mentors residing in the Widom-Larsen camp. I honestly don't know WHO in the W-L camp those affiliates might be, but no matter. The point about forming an allegiance with an affiliate is the fact that when one does so it means THEIR enemy now becomes YOUR enemy. When I see Krivit going after Rossi, McKubre, and the rest of the CF camp, what I often see is someone going after the ENEMY based on his newly formed allegiance. It looks to me as if Krivit never gave himself the chance to declare his independence. It looks to me as if he's just working for someone else now. Under the circumstances, it would be almost impossible for Krivit to dig up anything good about individuals like the mysterious quirky Rossi - someone who obviously exhibits many flagrant personality flaws. Likewise it would be next to impossible for Krivit to have anything good to say about McKubre, based on past history. His new allegiance, and the security and stability he derives from it, wouldn't allow for it. In wacky non-scientific New Age terms I'd say Krivit is still in the throes of learning the valuable lesson pertaining to leaving the ideological nest that has been manufactured by others and declaring his own intellectual independence. IMHO, this is a huge and scary lesson we all must eventually pass through - some more awkwardly and obnoxiously than others. It also explains why, IMO, Krivit is no longer an investigative reporter, or perhaps never really was. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Simple Genius: This Says it all!
Everything you just said is your personal opinion too you know. People's values are stupid. You said the guy who was terminally ill would rather have a good doctor than LENR. This is because he is basing his decision off his emotions and doesn't think. If LENR was widespread, we could have more money to spend on health care and less time wasted on other things so that we could have more and better doctors. Maybe if he would have been smarter in 1989 and invested in LENR, his life would have been saved, so it's his own fault to be in this situation now. Only good government leaders realize this, so socialism with good leaders is the best form of government. I'll be making plenty of money, so it doesn't bother me personally that the people who don't work that hard get paid the most. On Feb 18, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Craig Haynie wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:48 AM, Jarold McWilliams oldja...@hotmail.com wrote: The problem with all of that is the ones who work the least are the ones with the most money. It's only a problem to you. Do you think Buffet really worked a million times harder than the average person? No, but he has a very rare talent. What Buffet does is find companies with a good business plan and good management, and he buys their stock. In the aggregate, over the course of Buffet's life, he has funneled more money into companies that use it productively, than others would have done with this money, without him. We have no idea how this may have helped improve technology, or the economy, or how it helped to bring new innovations to market. It is an unmeasurable benefit. Socialism does not mean equality, but I really don't think Buffet deserves to make a million times more just because he can shuffle stocks around. And here you're injecting your opinion into the issue. Socialism just means government ownership of business which is a lot of times more efficient than private ownership. Socialism can never be more efficient than private business because there is no accountability for the money spent. When people spend money that is taken from others by force and threats of violence, they then use it to pursue their own values in deference to the values of those from whom they took the money. They may be making themselves more efficient at pursuing their own values, but are necessarily depriving others of the ability to pursue the values held by those others, because they took the money of those others. For example, when the government creates Amtrak and subsidizes passenger rail, they do this by taking money from people by threats of violence. This deprives those people from whom they took the money of the ability to pursue their values to some degree. Now the government runs a railroad, and for those who are hired by Amtrak, their lives may be better off. If those people sought jobs from Amtrak because they love railroads then they are then able to pursue careers in a field of their choice, but only at the expense of those who were deprived of their money through force, to run Amtrak. Some customers might be better off using rail in an era when rail can't survive in the market on its own, but Amtrak was created because most people would rather fly when they travel, and those customers who'd rather fly, are simply being deprived of their money in this whole process. There is no improvement in efficiency. Engineers and scientists should get paid more while lawyers and doctors should get paid less because they are more important for society. There's no way to know who's important to society and who isn't. Importance is a value judgement. To the person saved from a terminal disease by the latest advancement in technology, that doctor might be far more important to them than the engineer who invented the eCat. Here's a question for this professor. If the majority of people are stupid enough to vote for Obama, do you think they could manage their own finances or run their own businesses? Political preference is not a determining factor in intelligence. If you had a smart person like me as leader of the country back in 1989, we'd already have LENR as our main energy source if it is real. There are not many private businesses willing to touch cold fusion, but the government can invest in it if they were smart. Again, you're interjecting your personal values into the issue. YOU may believe that LENR is a good risk for YOUR money, but here you are suggesting that you take money from others by force and threats of violence, and use it to pursue those things that match YOUR values. This has nothing to do with being smart. It has everything to do with how the lives and property of others could be expropriated by you. And if LENR is not real(which I don't think is the case)? Well, both private businesses and the government have
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Information regarding Leonardo Corporation’s Commercial License Policy
2012/2/16 OrionWorks - Steven V Johnson svj.orionwo...@gmail.com: So Rossi doesn't take money from investors, but he does take money from the sale of licenses for an unreliable product. Is this a responsible way to run a business? Harry, what's your point? Surely you realize the fact that many within the Vort Collective question Rossi's business practices. And so do I. It's exacerbated by the fact that Rossi tells us only what he wants to tell us, so who the hell really knows what is happening. I also know that I'm not in Rossi's shoes. Are you in his shoes? Do you really know what's happening? Rossi doesn't just selectively reveal information about the state his business he also lies about the state of his business. I don't think the misinformation is part of some brilliant business stragety. Instead, I think he lies out of a sense of shame of appearing falliable and therefore weak. Perhaps he behaves this way because he his mother or father did not tolerate failure. Anyway a recognition of your own weakness is essential for success in any endeavour. harry
[Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Rossi's Information regarding Leonardo Corporation’s Commercial License Policy
2012/2/18 Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com: Perhaps he behaves this way because he his mother or father did not tolerate failure. Or poor potty training. T
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
It seems to have a transcript below. Is that possible? It seems they are conducting the meeting in a wine cellar, like a scene in a Tintin comic. Is *that* possible?!? Now there is a fire alarm going off. This is a lively event. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
I guess the text below is being sent by the viewing audience on the Internet. At times like this it does feel like we are living in the 21st century. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
On 2012-02-18 19:19, Jed Rothwell wrote: I guess the text below is being sent by the viewing audience on the Internet. The event is being broadcast from a tasting room of a wine shop. Yes, the text below is from the viewing audience on the Internet. Questions written there get asked to Celani from time to time. Cheers, S.A.
RE: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
From Jed: ... As Daniel says, what could possibly cost $50,000 about this? What has Krivit done? He has not uncovered anything that has not been reported here, as far as I know. He went all the way to Italy to report that Rossi will not let people use their own instruments and the experiment is poorly done. Rossi told me that when he invited me to visit. He said I can look but make no measurements. He described the experiment, and I thought was lousy. That took me about an hour and 6 e-mails to discover, not $50,000. I reported it here. End of story. This reminds me of Krivit's investigation of McKubre, which has revealed confusion in Krivit's own mind, but nothing in the real world. In an addition to my previous arm-chair psychology analysis of Krivt. I wouldn't have given out dollar amount, like the alleged $50,000 in labor and expenses unless my intention had been to impress my readership with my observational skills. Giving a dollar amount in the manner that he did tells me this is all about Krivit's ego. He has now wrapped himself in a flag of narcissistic self-importance because investigating Rossi, he claims, has cost him ...a one-year delay/interference in covering real science. So, Krivit is basically inferring to his readership to please admire him for all of the thankless work he has performed to expose the scammer Rossi. Krivit hopes we will all eventually get around to thanking and admiring him when we all come around to his POV. But now that Krivit has unwisely boasted of a specific dollar amount for all of his investigative work to expose Rossi it automatically leads one to ask WHO is footing all of Krivit's expenses to expose Rossi? It seems to me that it isn't likely that one would shell out fifty grand unless the benefactor expects to get something in return, even if that return is nothing more than pushing for a specific ideological POV. If they didn't like what Krivit was investigating and subsequently publishing, no more funding. It's a simple as that. So, who is backing Krivit? What are their motivations, their educational background? Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
RE: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
I guess the text below is being sent by the viewing audience on the Internet. The event is being broadcast from a tasting room of a wine shop. Yes, the text below is from the viewing audience on the Internet. Questions written there get asked to Celani from time to time. This is fascinating. Damn! Wish I knew Italian. I hope someone will eventually be able to perform a reasonable translation into English pertaining to the high points. Regards, Steven Vincent Johnson www.OrionWorks.com www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
On 2012-02-18 20:08, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote: This is fascinating. Damn! Wish I knew Italian. I hope someone will eventually be able to perform a reasonable translation into English pertaining to the high points. Videos of this event will be uploaded to Youtube and Vimeo as far as I know. I don't know about translations. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:More from S. Africa
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:46:33 -0800: Hi, [snip] IOW, since Pb is heavy and does not normally have 60% of the energy of coal, our leap of faith in this example, is that the Bedini style of back-EMF pulsing on the reactants is able to derive chemical energy in a new way, but still using only valence electrons - so really we are more concerned on the bottom line with its actual mass than anything else. As long as net energy extraction does not exceed normal chemistry as epitomized by hydrocarbon combustion, then we are technically not invoking overunity, or LENR. Coal has about 870 W-hr per pound when combusted. We are thus imagining that lead when used in this new way has about 522 W-hr per pound. This battery has about 6 pounds of reactants and if fully extracted, its (hypothetical) energy would then be about 3.2 kWhrs IF this new method gives us 60% of the energy of a 6 pound mass of coal. [snip] An atom of Lead is about 17 times heavier than an atom of carbon, so for it to have 60% of the energy density, it would need to produce about 10 times the energy per atom that carbon produces. Since carbon produces about 4 eV / atom, when combined with oxygen to create CO2, the implication is that the lead would need to produce about 40 eV / atom. I think that's a bit of stretch, don't you? (Coincidentally, this about equal to the first shrinkage level Hydrino energy. ;) Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
Von: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net An: vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 20:08 Samstag, 18.Februar 2012 This is fascinating. Damn! Wish I knew Italian. Well. At least the Italians and Greeks have a feeling for drama and comedy. To perform the interview in a Toscany vine cellar has style and adequacy. Anticipates the age of energy-abundance, when e-cats are used to keep the vine at temperature. Americans presumably would have lots of high-tech-gadgets as a background, and dream of something interstellar. Reminds me of Zappa: The chances are fifty-fifty, that I might have something to say, which was a substantial contribution to epistemology. Amen.
RE: [Vo]:More from S. Africa
-Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com An atom of Lead is about 17 times heavier than an atom of carbon, so for it to have 60% of the energy density, it would need to produce about 10 times the energy per atom that carbon produces. Since carbon produces about 4 eV / atom, when combined with oxygen to create CO2, the implication is that the lead would need to produce about 40 eV / atom. I think that's a bit of stretch, don't you? Well, not if we allow supra-chemistry (but I was hoping for this kind of response). If we define energy release via accumulated electron orbitals as chemical in a quasi-Millsean way ... almost in the way you quickly mention ... (Coincidentally, this about equal to the first shrinkage level Hydrino energy ;) Yes, this is what I was getting at - but not quite. The sum of the first three valence electrons of Pd is almost exactly 54.4 eV and lead oxides will be able to manipulate these 3 electrons in a way that is not exactly Millsean - as I tried to outline in this message: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg63257.html Robin - for the record - the density of carbon (graphite) is 2.25 gm/cm^3 and lead is 11.35 so the ratio of the two is not much more than 5:1 for those two - but the point is the same - that more than deeper orbitals needs to be involved in an energy hole arrangement with hydronium from the battery acid (in a new kind of reduction reaction) to see this kind of gain. Jones
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
On 2012-02-18 17:11, Akira Shirakawa wrote: Hello group, Here's a nice recap of what has been discussed during the meeting, courtesy of user AB from ecatnews.com (in the comment section here: http://ecatnews.com/?p=2068 ): The 22passi meeting has ended. There were no real news, but I learned a few things I wasn’t aware of before. It was very interesting to hear Celani talk about LENR research. The project to send Celani and a few other tests to Greece to test the Hyperion is on ice. Defkalion’s proposed protocol was deemed unnecessarily complicated and difficult to work with due to lack of cooling. The Hyperion would have to be throttled quite heavily in these conditions. It would be possible to verify that a LENR is taking place but it wouldn’t be possible to make any conclusions about the commercial usefulness of the Hyperion. Nevertheless, Celani seemed convinced that they’ll let him test the Hyperion. Celani was surprised that CERN showed interest in LENR. He thinks it has something to do with his replication of Arata and his discovery that the temperature coefficient of resistance in a Ni-Cu alloy loaded with hydrogen changes and that this is associated with excess heat. Celani was asked about his secret spectrometric reading in the one e-cat test that he attended. He said that gamma radiation readings were off the chart of the instrument for a moment at about the same time the reactor started. He also took several other secret readings by pretending to go to the bathroom which was nearby. The instability of the emission was a good sign according to him. Back in 1989 the NASA did an interesting experiment but never published. Had they published, the PF story might have gone differently. They wanted to see what would happen with deuterium gas and without current as opposed to the electrolytic PF cell. The Hydrogen loading process matched the theory: when hydrogen was loaded into the metal, temperature increased, when it was unloaded temperature decreased. The deuterium loading process did not match theory: the loading produced heat and the unloading as well. These were the things that struck me as particularly interesting. I hope I made no mistake in understanding and remembering them. Anyway, somebody mentioned that the whole talk was filmed by a better camera than the one that streamed, so it should be up on youtube fairly soon, and hopefully with English subtitles. Cheers, S.A.
Re: [Vo]:Sterling Allan / S-African Free Fuel Generator FFG trip
Uh-oh . ??? http://pesn.com/2012/02/07/9602034_Fund_Drive_for_S._Africa_Trip_to_See_New_Number_1_Free_Energy_Technology/#Follow-up Just says Report pending . . . AND it's no longer in the Top 5 http://peswiki.com/index.php/Top_5_Exotic_Free_Energy_Technologies
Re: [Vo]:1MW Customer
Krivit continues his investigative journalism : Rossi Blames E-Cat Delivery Discrepancy on Translation Error http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/18/rossi-blames-e-cat-delivery-discrepancy-on-translation-error/ Artist's visualization of 1 MW plant on its way to the customer .. http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/RossiECat/img/Roll-Off-Service.jpg and Readers should not get confused between Rossi’s 1MW E-Cat and his electric generators. Both are constructed within shipping containers, but the 1MW E-Cat comes in a big blue box, the gensets come in big grey boxes. and But today we learned from readers that Rossi had, in fact, told his fans that he had shipped the 1 MW E-Cat. According Rossi, the discrepancy is the result of a “translation error.” [ with a Rossi blog comment from Jan 19 ] Rossi explained that a translation problem made him think that the big blue box had already been delivered to the customer. “A misunderstanding, due to bad translation, has made [me] think the plant was already in the place of the Customer,” Rossi wrote.
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
On 2012-02-18 17:11, Akira Shirakawa wrote: He also took several other secret readings by pretending to go to the bathroom which was nearby. No wonder Rossi distrusts academics!
Re: [Vo]:More from S. Africa
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Sat, 18 Feb 2012 13:24:05 -0800: Hi Jones, [snip] -Original Message- From: mix...@bigpond.com An atom of Lead is about 17 times heavier than an atom of carbon, so for it to have 60% of the energy density, it would need to produce about 10 times the energy per atom that carbon produces. Since carbon produces about 4 eV / atom, when combined with oxygen to create CO2, the implication is that the lead would need to produce about 40 eV / atom. I think that's a bit of stretch, don't you? Well, not if we allow supra-chemistry (but I was hoping for this kind of response). If we define energy release via accumulated electron orbitals as chemical in a quasi-Millsean way ... almost in the way you quickly mention ... (Coincidentally, this about equal to the first shrinkage level Hydrino energy ;) Yes, this is what I was getting at - but not quite. The sum of the first three valence electrons of Pd is almost exactly 54.4 eV and lead oxides will be able to manipulate these 3 electrons in a way that is not exactly Millsean - as I tried to outline in this message: http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg63257.html Quote:- IOW - oxygen, which want to takes 2 electrons from lead's massive number of 82 (and also can have the same 54.4 eV 'hole') - can interact within these oxidation states to create an energy gap at 54.4 eV ... which, after all, is many times normal redox spreads which go from +1.7 to -1.5. At first I thought The energy hole in Oxygen of 54.4 eV occurs when losing electrons, not when acquiring them. The same goes for the Lead, so one can't the donor and the other the acceptor., however obviously the reverse can also happen, i.e. the highly oxidized state of Oxygen (i.e.) O+++ can also acquire electrons and return to O++, and so can the Pb+++ return to Pb, so it's conceivable that e.g. O+++ + Pb - O++ + Pb+++. (Note that this would require an unbalanced number of electrons, which consequently would need to be absorbed by other reactions) Perhaps you would care to come up with a specific reaction (or set of reactions)? BTW you were correct about Pb and 54.4 eV. In fact it's 54.388 eV, and the actual energy hole value is 4*13.598 = 54.392 eV so they are very close indeed. However the value for Pb is probably only valid for atomic lead, not for metallic lead. Atomic lead may however have been available during combustion of Tetraethyl lead, when lead used to be added to gasoline, so it seems at least possible that cars using leaded gasoline produced more energy than they should have. (O++ has a value of 54.934 eV) Robin - for the record - the density of carbon (graphite) is 2.25 gm/cm^3 and lead is 11.35 so the ratio of the two is not much more than 5:1 for those two - but the point is the same - that more than deeper orbitals needs to be involved in an energy hole arrangement with hydronium from the battery acid (in a new kind of reduction reaction) to see this kind of gain. Quote from your original email: Coal has about 870 W-hr per pound when combusted. We are thus imagining that lead when used in this new way has about 522 W-hr per pound. This expresses energy density as energy per unit mass, which may be expressed just as well in eV/amu as in Whr/lb (since we are looking at the ratio; IOW it's ok as long as the same measure is used for both substances; the conversion factor cancels out when the ratio is taken). The volumetric density is irrelevant. (BTW I have a figure of 3720 Wh/lb for Anthracite, 3380 Wh/lb for bituminous coal, see http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/energy.html ). Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson orionwo...@charter.net wrote: When I was still one of the NET BoD directors I asked Krivit whether he was actually pursuing the role of an advocate rather than that of an independent investigative reporter. This was related to the fact that I noticed he was spending a great deal of time promoting the so-called merits of the Widom-Larsen theory out on his NET website. Krivit has done important work, and he has done a lot of good for the field. Both Steven and I have worked with Krivit, and benefited from the experience. So I do not wish to turn this thread into a bash Steve Krivit extravaganza. But I would like to add one thing. From my perspective, it is pathetic that Krivit is advocating a theory. I do not think he has the expertise to evaluate cold fusion theory. I am sure that I do not have that expertise. I am not ashamed to admit that because Mizuno and many other chemists have told me they cannot make head or tail of theory, and they skip the theory sessions at conferences. If they don't have a clue what Hagelstein is talking about, it is cinch I don't. I get the impression I have a somewhat stronger background in physics and biology than Krivit does. But I am sure that you gave me an oral exam on these theories and asked me to explain some paragraphs from the W-L theory papers, I would have slightest idea what they mean. Here's the thing: I am pretty sure that Krivit would not have the slightest idea either. He can parrot some of the claims in the papers but that is far from understanding what it means, or being able to argue the merits of the theory compared to Hagelstein's theory or some other. For example: Imagine asking Krivit to explicate this: Generally it can be considered that all effective mass calculations about the charges (electrons and holes) in solids are based on the corresponding electron band structures ignoring the rule given in [1, 2]. However, recently some authors [3, 4] have considered the impact of interaction of external electro-magnetic field with electrons in solids on the electron effective mass, and they have found that increase of this mass can be expected. Imagine asking him: Can you explain what an effective mass calculation of charges is? What rule is ignored? How can a magnetic field increase the effective mass of an electron, and what does this mean? Why is this expected? I wouldn't have a clue! I can barely make out the claim, and I can't imagine how a magnetic field can increase mass in any sense, virtual or real. Ask him what Eq. 1 means, and what the terms r is the radius-vector of the electron, E(q) is electron energy in the quasi-elementary cell mean and I am sure he would be lost at sea. There is a paper by Krivit that says: Allan Widom and Lewis Larsen propose that, in condensed matter, local breakdown of the Born–Oppenheimer approximation occurs in homogeneous, many-body, collectively oscillating patches of protons, deuterons, or tritons found on surfaces of fully loaded metallic hydrides; Born–Oppenheimer breakdown enables a degree of electromagnetic coupling of surface proton/ deuteron/triton oscillations with those of nearby surface plasmon polariton (SPP) electrons. Such coupling between collective oscillations creates local nuclear-strength electric fields in the vicinity of the patches. http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/KrivitSanewlookat.pdf That is impressive but I suspect it is was written by his co-author Marwan. Anyway, I could crib a similar description of many theory papers without actually knowing what I was saying. I have often edited such papers and occasionally translated them. Naturally, I warn the authors that I may mess things up since I do not understand the content in any depth. There are many secretaries in university departments who edit and rewrite papers without knowing in detail what the papers really mean. Needless to say, there are hoards of nitwits out there editing Wikipedia and making trouble elsewhere who do know the first thing about cold fusion yet who pontificate about it endlessly with great assurance. Krivit is not the only one who does this. But someone is paying him 50 grand to do it . . . Back in the 1980s I read several computer science papers written by management consultants that were cribbed. That is to say, the authors knew how to string together impressive sounding jargon describing what was then state-of-the-art programming techniques and the latest microcomputer hardware. It sounded good, like an article in Byte magazine. But I knew a more about computers than these people did, and I could tell they were faking it. I recall in particular a report from McKinsey Co. in which the authors confused EPROM firmware with operating system object code and application object code. As Dirty Harry said, a man should know his limitations. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
If one is advocating it, this limitation should be overcome. With 50k$, a year, that is possible, either by self learning or going to an university. 2012/2/18 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com As Dirty Harry said, a man should know his limitations. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
[Vo]:how common is heat pump / absorption cooling?
Rossi says an optional cooling / air conditioning module can later be attached to the e-Cat. Supposedly this is some kind of heat pump / absorption cooler. I can understand how that would work, theoretically. In real life, however, I have not seen much more of this technology than a camping fridge on gas. Last summer, I moved from Europe to an island in the Caribbean; one of the warmer places on Earth. We have a large oil refinery here, and as a result liquid petroleum gas is cheap. On the other hand, due to the issue of scale (140.000 inhabitants), electricity is insanely expensive, say about $1/KWh. Air conditioning is a major component of my high electricity bill. You would say these are ideal circumstances for cooling based on a heat source, also when not considering LENR. If not from the sun, through (non-PV) collectors, then from LPG. Still, I don't see those anywhere. So: how practical or common is the idea of cooling a house from a heat source like an e-Cat? Andre
Re: [Vo]:Dick Smith $1M sentiments
The worse part it is that he considers a written communication (e-mail) better than a phone or skype video conference. I think he forgot that the latter can be easily recorded and hardly faked whereas the former can be easily forged. Go figure. 2012/2/18 Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl Judging from the latest thread at http://ecatnews.com/?p=2068, after just a few days, Dick Smith already manages to irritate a lot of people at ecatnews.com with his impatience and amateurism. His plan was clear: show me that it works, and I will give you $1M. Defkalion accepts the offer, and they should be admired for doing so. But instead of now allowing them to produce evidence, it looks like Smith will continue his ranting about how much this looks like it is a scam. Apparently he doesn't even have the patience to sit out his own show. What irritates me most, personally, is that, while he himself brought up the necessity of having experts like Kullander and Essen present, he seems to have forgotten about their relevance already, forgets to get them in the loop and is now in personal negotiations with Defkalion about the test plan, including calorimetry details, as if he were an expert. At this time, IMHO, Smith would do best in sitting back a bit, establish contact with these experts he mentioned, or good alternatives, then agree on a good schedule and give the other players some stage time. Initially I thought I envied Smith for coming up with a plan that would make him come out as a winner no matter of the outcome of the demonstration. But he is screwing up already by playing unfair, and now I am not so certain he will come out undamaged. Andre -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Dick Smith $1M sentiments
BTW, Dick Smith is acting like a retarded. It seems he cannot understand his own email exchanges, his own native language. 2012/2/18 Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com The worse part it is that he considers a written communication (e-mail) better than a phone or skype video conference. I think he forgot that the latter can be easily recorded and hardly faked whereas the former can be easily forged. Go figure. 2012/2/18 Andre Blum andre_vor...@blums.nl Judging from the latest thread at http://ecatnews.com/?p=2068, after just a few days, Dick Smith already manages to irritate a lot of people at ecatnews.com with his impatience and amateurism. His plan was clear: show me that it works, and I will give you $1M. Defkalion accepts the offer, and they should be admired for doing so. But instead of now allowing them to produce evidence, it looks like Smith will continue his ranting about how much this looks like it is a scam. Apparently he doesn't even have the patience to sit out his own show. What irritates me most, personally, is that, while he himself brought up the necessity of having experts like Kullander and Essen present, he seems to have forgotten about their relevance already, forgets to get them in the loop and is now in personal negotiations with Defkalion about the test plan, including calorimetry details, as if he were an expert. At this time, IMHO, Smith would do best in sitting back a bit, establish contact with these experts he mentioned, or good alternatives, then agree on a good schedule and give the other players some stage time. Initially I thought I envied Smith for coming up with a plan that would make him come out as a winner no matter of the outcome of the demonstration. But he is screwing up already by playing unfair, and now I am not so certain he will come out undamaged. Andre -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
[Vo]:do postings get lost?
sorry to interrupt for this question: what do I do wrong, that most of the time my postings do not show up in my own e-mail box, and apparently also not on http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/ ? For example, on mail-archive.com, my message with title Dick Smith $1M sentiments shows up only as a reply from Daniel (who apparently did see the original message). This seems to happen to other people as well. Simple genius: This says it all also starts with a reply, both on mail-archive and in my mailbox. I did never receive the original posting. Re: [Vo]:Krivit: con letter from Rossi is another example. Do postings get lost?? Andre
RE: [Vo]:do postings get lost?
I received your original post entitled: Dick Smith $1M sentiments The mail-archive site does on occasion miss emails, out fail to correctly catalogue them. The best thing to do are: A) Ensure that any time you create a new thread, you start a new email from scratch. If you reply and change the title, it may confuse the archiving system. B) Ensure that any time you respond to a post, double check the to: addressee. Depending upon the original poster's email client, some reply emails may get directed to that poster instead of the vortex listserve. Your original post looked fine, though, and merely a problem with mail-archive. Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 22:53:44 -0400 From: andre_vor...@blums.nl To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: [Vo]:do postings get lost? sorry to interrupt for this question: what do I do wrong, that most of the time my postings do not show up in my own e-mail box, and apparently also not on http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/ ? For example, on mail-archive.com, my message with title Dick Smith $1M sentiments shows up only as a reply from Daniel (who apparently did see the original message). This seems to happen to other people as well. Simple genius: This says it all also starts with a reply, both on mail-archive and in my mailbox. I did never receive the original posting. Re: [Vo]:Krivit: con letter from Rossi is another example. Do postings get lost?? Andre
Re: [Vo]:do postings get lost?
I think postings get lost when sent to a group and to vortex as this both to my self and another copy to vortex
[Vo]:predictions from Stevek's past life
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Incorrect_predictions#Television
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: If one is advocating it, this limitation should be overcome. With 50k$, a year, that is possible, either by self learning or going to an university. I believe you are suggesting that with $50,000 per year, Krivit might study by himself or attend classes at a university to the point where he could master these theories and make credible critique of the W-L theory. I do not think that is possible. Take Mizuno for example. He earned a PhD studying with Bockris, who was a notorious slave driver who expected top notch work and made his students work 80-hour weeks. Mizuno has decades of practical experience in chemistry. Yet he says he cannot understand these theories. As I said, I know several other scientists with similar deep backgrounds and experience who cannot understand the theories well enough to debate which is best, or even which has merit. If people like this cannot debate the issue, I doubt that Krivit could after a few years of school after reading some textbooks. Modern physics is extremely complicated. It is not something you can master in your spare time, and probably not after you pass age 30. That would be like trying to become a concert pianist in your 30s when you had only amateur-level training in high school. It may be that these theories are particularly complicated and difficult to learn because they are wrong. I wouldn't know, but in the past incorrect theories have often been complicated than correct ones. In the book The Double Helix Watson wrote that he could not make head or tail of the theories proposed to explain cellular reproduction before 1952. They were over his head. He paid no attention to them. It turned out they were all completely wrong. He discovered the actual cause, and it was relatively simple. (Simple enough that even I understand it in some depth.) There are some disciplines you can master to the farthest extent anyone can go in a few years. Learning a modern foreign language for example. Once you can read an adult level book, understand a movie, conduct business or write a speech or newspaper column in another language, you may not be a native speaker but you have mastered it. No language is more intrinsically complicated than any other, because children everywhere master their own languages by age 5. There other disciplines such as physics or biology in which the amount that can be learned is far greater than any individual can master -- or even hear about. In the mid-19th century there were still a few people who could understand every major development in these fields, but that is impossible now. I think that is one of the reasons the pace of progress in science is slowing down, and why it has taken 22 years for people to accept cold fusion. Science is too big and too complicated for the human mind. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Leonado Corp Ownership
Well, I personally do not see WL theory as something that would require much more than an undergraduate level, or for the most complicated ones, anything close to a PhD. I believe Mizuno said he cannot understand simply because the theories presented so far really do not make sense. But he is being polite and not saying they do not making sense... 2012/2/19 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: If one is advocating it, this limitation should be overcome. With 50k$, a year, that is possible, either by self learning or going to an university. I believe you are suggesting that with $50,000 per year, Krivit might study by himself or attend classes at a university to the point where he could master these theories and make credible critique of the W-L theory. I do not think that is possible. Take Mizuno for example. He earned a PhD studying with Bockris, who was a notorious slave driver who expected top notch work and made his students work 80-hour weeks. Mizuno has decades of practical experience in chemistry. Yet he says he cannot understand these theories. As I said, I know several other scientists with similar deep backgrounds and experience who cannot understand the theories well enough to debate which is best, or even which has merit. If people like this cannot debate the issue, I doubt that Krivit could after a few years of school after reading some textbooks. Modern physics is extremely complicated. It is not something you can master in your spare time, and probably not after you pass age 30. That would be like trying to become a concert pianist in your 30s when you had only amateur-level training in high school. It may be that these theories are particularly complicated and difficult to learn because they are wrong. I wouldn't know, but in the past incorrect theories have often been complicated than correct ones. In the book The Double Helix Watson wrote that he could not make head or tail of the theories proposed to explain cellular reproduction before 1952. They were over his head. He paid no attention to them. It turned out they were all completely wrong. He discovered the actual cause, and it was relatively simple. (Simple enough that even I understand it in some depth.) There are some disciplines you can master to the farthest extent anyone can go in a few years. Learning a modern foreign language for example. Once you can read an adult level book, understand a movie, conduct business or write a speech or newspaper column in another language, you may not be a native speaker but you have mastered it. No language is more intrinsically complicated than any other, because children everywhere master their own languages by age 5. There other disciplines such as physics or biology in which the amount that can be learned is far greater than any individual can master -- or even hear about. In the mid-19th century there were still a few people who could understand every major development in these fields, but that is impossible now. I think that is one of the reasons the pace of progress in science is slowing down, and why it has taken 22 years for people to accept cold fusion. Science is too big and too complicated for the human mind. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
[Vo]:NI and Rossi not related anymore
http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/18/national-instruments-denies-relationship-with-rossi/ Confirmed by NI. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Live stream with 22passi readers and Francesco Celani
And no wonder academics and many other people distrust Rossi- even if they admit he has found something potentially useful. On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 1:55 AM, Alan Fletcher a...@well.com wrote: On 2012-02-18 17:11, Akira Shirakawa wrote: He also took several other secret readings by pretending to go to the bathroom which was nearby. No wonder Rossi distrusts academics! -- Dr. Peter Gluck Cluj, Romania http://egooutpeters.blogspot.com
Re: [Vo]:NI and Rossi not related anymore
Did Krivit ask if NI was working with any partner/customer/joint venturer of Rossi/Leonardo Corp. At this point if Rossi is legit he has to Partner with an entity with resources. Frankly, it would be just like Krivit not ask that question or tell if he did. Also, NI could be working under an NDA. Ransom Sent from my iPhone On Feb 18, 2012, at 11:37 PM, Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: http://blog.newenergytimes.com/2012/02/18/national-instruments-denies-relationship-with-rossi/ Confirmed by NI. -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Elemental Ovens
There are reports decades before FP about cold fusion, Filimonenko Ivan Stepanovich for example... On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 6:34 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Nigel Dyer l...@thedyers.org.uk wrote: Over Christmas I met someone whilst out on a walk, got chatting, and found that they had been working on Palladium/Hydrogen systems in the 1960's, and had become aware that there was something odd going on. . . . In his book, Mizuno said every electrochemist knew there were puzzling thermal and nuclear anomalies with palladium deuterides. He himself observed several. However, he eventually dismissed them as experimental errors. He gives full credit to FP for following up on these things and producing them with far higher s/n ratios and reproducibility. He says this discovery is theirs, and theirs alone. - Jed
