Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
In reply to Axil Axil's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 13:41:12 -0400: Hi, [snip] First, Papp did not use hydrogen. He may not intentionally have used it, but it was definitely present, either as water or engine lubricating oil. The energy from the spark would be more than enough to liberate some initial Hydrogen from either of those sources, and the further release from the main energy source of the reaction would liberate more. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the Papp engine works and other versions of the Papp engines don’t. Papp cooled the gas in the return stroke of the cycle by using radio frequency (RF) in the CB band to reconstitute the photo-active structure of the gases. Cheers: axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction has been known to be a singularity since the 1930s and yes - it is especially violent, but there must be a way to reuse the reactants continuously, since the reaction forms a strong acid otherwise. A fellow named Robert Scragg apparently came close to commercializing this reaction using solar input - since he recognized the problem of continuity. Probably he came closer than did Papp (if chlorine was indeed Papp’s secret, which is doubtful since it does not work with noble gases) and this was in the same time frame as Papp (40 years ago). ** ** http://www.rexresearch.com/scragg/scragg.htm ** ** The HCl reaction happens once – and AFAIK there is no evidence that it is reversible for net gain - and therefore how can it be useful in a closed cycle engine where one needs continuous explosions at 10-50 times per second? What is a plausible mechanism for returning the hydrochloric acid back to the elements, without attacking the metal cylinder and piston - and at this rapid rate of many times per second in a closed cylinder? Scragg used solar energy with a focusing lens - and that mechanism has some plausibility. ** ** The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are “stripped” from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. ** ** Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Whoa. Think about what you claiming Axil. Cooling an expanding gas - by adding energy in the form of RF LOL. And if that is not enough, splitting the HCl acid molecule back into elemental form at the same time it is being cooled. Sure, there is laser cooling of bosons at near absolute zero, but are you trying to shoehorn that phenomenon - which is not RF to being with and only happens cryogenically - into a general ability to cool a hot gas with RF, and at the same time split the HCL back to H2 and Cl2 ? Where is the proof of this? You are doubling or tripling the miracles which are needed to make this thing work. Even those with an open mind cannot accept that a known conman, Papp - who claimed to have invented a 300 mph submarine, until that con was exposed - was next able to invent a first miraculous device which worked with radium, and then when he could no longer obtain radium, invented a second miraculous device that worked by recycling hydrochloric acid; but in which the acid did not attack the metal walls AND in addition, could be split and cooled at the same time. Even you cannot believe that is remotely possible ! From: Axil Axil Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the Papp engine works and other versions of the Papp engines don't. Papp cooled the gas in the return stroke of the cycle by using radio frequency (RF) in the CB band to reconstitute the photo-active structure of the gases. Cheers: axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction has been known to be a singularity since the 1930s and yes - it is especially violent, but there must be a way to reuse the reactants continuously, since the reaction forms a strong acid otherwise. A fellow named Robert Scragg apparently came close to commercializing this reaction using solar input - since he recognized the problem of continuity. Probably he came closer than did Papp (if chlorine was indeed Papp's secret, which is doubtful since it does not work with noble gases) and this was in the same time frame as Papp (40 years ago). http://www.rexresearch.com/scragg/scragg.htm The HCl reaction happens once - and AFAIK there is no evidence that it is reversible for net gain - and therefore how can it be useful in a closed cycle engine where one needs continuous explosions at 10-50 times per second? What is a plausible mechanism for returning the hydrochloric acid back to the elements, without attacking the metal cylinder and piston - and at this rapid rate of many times per second in a closed cylinder? Scragg used solar energy with a focusing lens - and that mechanism has some plausibility. The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are stripped from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. From: Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded feature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
I would stick to the plasmoid theory. Anything with an oid at the end makes it sound more believable :) On Thursday, March 14, 2013, Jones Beene wrote: Whoa. Think about what you claiming Axil. ** ** “Cooling an expanding gas - by adding energy in the form of RF” ** ** LOL. And if that is not enough, splitting the HCl acid molecule back into elemental form at the same time it is being cooled. ** ** Sure, there is laser cooling of bosons at near absolute zero, but are you trying to shoehorn that phenomenon – which is not RF to being with and only happens cryogenically - into a general ability to cool a hot gas with RF, and at the same time split the HCL back to H2 and Cl2 ? Where is the proof of this? ** ** You are doubling or tripling the miracles which are needed to make this thing work. ** ** Even those with an open mind cannot accept that a known conman, Papp - who claimed to have invented a 300 mph submarine, until that con was exposed - was next able to invent a first miraculous device which worked with radium, and then when he could no longer obtain radium, invented a second miraculous device that worked by recycling hydrochloric acid; but in which the acid did not attack the metal walls AND in addition, could be split and cooled at the same time. ** ** Even you cannot believe that is remotely possible ! ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the Papp engine works and other versions of the Papp engines don’t. Papp cooled the gas in the return stroke of the cycle by using radio frequency (RF) in the CB band to reconstitute the photo-active structure of the gases. Cheers: axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction has been known to be a singularity since the 1930s and yes - it is especially violent, but there must be a way to reuse the reactants continuously, since the reaction forms a strong acid otherwise. A fellow named Robert Scragg apparently came close to commercializing this reaction using solar input - since he recognized the problem of continuity. Probably he came closer than did Papp (if chlorine was indeed Papp’s secret, which is doubtful since it does not work with noble gases) and this was in the same time frame as Papp (40 years ago). http://www.rexresearch.com/scragg/scragg.htm The HCl reaction happens once – and AFAIK there is no evidence that it is reversible for net gain - and therefore how can it be useful in a closed cycle engine where one needs continuous explosions at 10-50 times per second? What is a plausible mechanism for returning the hydrochloric acid back to the elements, without attacking the metal cylinder and piston - and at this rapid rate of many times per second in a closed cylinder? Scragg used solar energy with a focusing lens - and that mechanism has some plausibility. The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are “stripped” from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent.
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
First, Papp did not use hydrogen. He may have used chlorine as a secret enhancement. Chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser) is a form of ultraviolet laser in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. An excerpt from my monograph on the Papp engine to be published sometime this summer as follows: The study of Xenon is currently a large field of physics and chemistry in its own right. Xenon is an uncommon element in the way it behaves. For one thing, Xenon will convert nuclear radiation into charged electrons which makes xenon pass a current as low as one volt as a conductive thermionic diode in nuclear reactors. In plain language, Xenon converts high energy EMF radiation into electrons. Xenon is easily ionized and can develop very large positive charge. Xenon forms clusters when it is cooled. But this cooling that we are talking about here is the removal or transition of the various kinds of kinetic energy that the Xenon atom possesses. This cooling can be done through the transfer of translational, rotational and vibrational energy to another atom. For example, Krypton atoms serve this function as a cooling agent of Xenon. In explanation, when Xenon is forced to move in a coherent direction in a group, translational, rotational and vibrational energy is converted to directional energy and the Xenon atoms are cooled but still energetic. Typical set-up for cooling noble gases is the supersonic beam technique. Such cooling can be done using radio frequency when the ionized Xenon atoms are forced to move back and forth in unison. Any kinetic energy that the Xenon atoms have is converted to directional energy. So in plain language, Radio frequency will catalyze the formation of Xenon clusters as the atoms of Xenon are cooled by coherent motion. *The Roundup* Think of a collection of Noble gas atoms as a herd of cattle. To begin with the cattle roam around on the prairie aimlessly with boundless energy but not applied to any purpose. To build a herd for a cattle drive, the cowpunchers prod the cattle into a tight bunch during the roundup. Then the drovers get the cattle to all go in the same direction as a herd. The drovers pack them close, shoulder to short ribs. The cows have little room but to march forward hardly able to move their heads. The cattle are all contented and well behaved and centered on the mindless march forward, but they are still are exerting a large amount of energy as they stumble forward to cover ground. In this analogy, the cowpokes are radio frequency radiation (RF) and the constraining coils. Papp talks about using RF in his engines. Xenon is easy to excite using RF because its binding energy is low: many orders of magnitude lower than hydrogen. The RF also produces clusters because the RF get noble gas atoms to all go in the same direction and the coils pack them tight.. Xenon strongly interacts with RF because these molecules have good dipole characteristics like water. Noble gases can combine and readily form clusters that can be very complex. For example, Helium and Xenon form a family of atomic clusters that behaves like argon. Excited Clusters have a positively charged ionic core composed of possibly hundreds or thousands of ionized atoms. Around this core of positive charge ions swarm a loosely connected flight of electrons orbiting on the outside of the cluster core and can be easily removed from the cluster by ionization. cheers:axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 1:04 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Whoa. Think about what you claiming Axil. ** ** “Cooling an expanding gas - by adding energy in the form of RF” ** ** LOL. And if that is not enough, splitting the HCl acid molecule back into elemental form at the same time it is being cooled. ** ** Sure, there is laser cooling of bosons at near absolute zero, but are you trying to shoehorn that phenomenon – which is not RF to being with and only happens cryogenically - into a general ability to cool a hot gas with RF, and at the same time split the HCL back to H2 and Cl2 ? Where is the proof of this? ** ** You are doubling or tripling the miracles which are needed to make this thing work. ** ** Even those with an open mind cannot accept that a known conman, Papp - who claimed to have invented a 300 mph submarine, until that con was exposed - was next able to invent a first miraculous device which worked with radium, and then when he could no longer obtain radium, invented a second miraculous device that worked by recycling hydrochloric acid; but in which the acid did not attack the metal walls AND in addition, could be split and cooled at the same time. ** ** Even you cannot believe that is remotely possible ! ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** Papp solved the problem of continuity. This mechanism of reinvigoration of the photo-reactivity of the gases is why the
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Are you saying Papp removed the .02% heavy water that occurs naturally in water? On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
From: Axil Axil First, Papp did not use hydrogen. He may have used chlorine as a secret enhancement. In the last patent he specifically used chlorine and water. The water would be the source of hydrogen. Chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser) is a form of ultraviolet laser in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. Yes but these lasers are extraordinarily inefficient. No way are your going to self-power an engine with a laser that is at most 5% efficient (P-in to P-out). Where is the source of excess energy?
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
In the first Papp design, he did use water and chlorine with the addition of some types of noble gases. He changed his design to use only noble gases in the second design. Cheers:Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 2:07 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Are you saying Papp removed the .02% heavy water that occurs naturally in water? On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 10:49 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Papp was not known to use deuterium, unless he used heavy water. Are you saying that Papp used heavy water ? If so, where is the evidence? This is not mentioned in the patent. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN82GoBG98sfeature=player_embedded This is a video of the chlorine – hydrogen ion explosion reaction using high energy photon radiation. This reaction demonstrates the basic reaction mechanism of the Papp engine. The Papp engine uses x-ray and ultra-violet photons to expand highly photo-reactive noble gases to push a piston using ion explosion. When used, the chlorine produces an excimer laser (sometimes more correctly called an exciplex laser). It is a form of ultraviolet laser used in the Papp engine when combined with various noble gases. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excimer_laser Cheers: Axil
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
No - I am saying that if he did use D for the gain, the engine would become strongly radioactive in a short time from neutron activation of the engine block and pistons. More specifically, if deuterium was providing neutrons for over 100 HP of gain as in the claim, Papp and the other observers would have been dead from radiation poisoning in a few hours of run time. From: James Bowery Are you saying Papp removed the .02% heavy water that occurs naturally in water?
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster’s inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by “barrier suppression ionization”, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. *Where Excess Power Comes From* The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. “Barrier suppression ionization” changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster that can be fabricated, the more energy is derived from the cluster explosion chain reaction process because the cluster stays together for a longer time and therefore more energy can be “pulled out of the vacuum”. The power that you can get out of the noble gas clusters is exponentially proportional to the intensity of the x-rays that you can produce. The more ionization you can produce in the cluster, the higher that the kinetic energy of the exploding ions will have. This energy goes up exponentially with the ionization level. With xenon, the ionization level can go up to +40. You can only imagine how powerful those exploding xenon ions can become. The other noble gases behave
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html From: Axil Axil More from the Monograph as follows: Where does the explosive force come from? The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let's, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is barrier suppression ionization. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster's inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by barrier suppression ionization, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. Where Excess Power Comes From The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. Barrier suppression ionization changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster that can be fabricated, the more energy is derived from the cluster explosion chain reaction process because the cluster stays together for a longer time and therefore more energy can be pulled out of the vacuum. The power that you can get out of the noble gas clusters is exponentially proportional to the intensity of the x-rays that you can produce. The more ionization you can produce in the cluster, the higher that the kinetic energy of the exploding ions will have. This
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: ** ** http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”.* *** The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster’s inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by “barrier suppression ionization”, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. *Where Excess Power Comes From* The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. “Barrier suppression ionization” changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
At 8:40 into the video, the power of the Papp reaction is deminstrated. The barrel was four feet long, four inches in diameter, made of a three foot length of 3-inch schedule 50 stainless steel pipe (0.6 inch wall thickness) anchored and totally encased in a heavy one-foot thick reinforced concrete containment block. The breech was loaded with just 10cc’s of Papp’s inert noble gas mix. For the breech, he used a spare cylinder head from one of his engines; for a projectile, he machined a piece of steel. Papp filled the cylinder head with his gas mix from five separate flasks and hooked up the power. Then Papp hit the start button. We heard this tremendous explosion. It was a low rumble, like a bass sound, one witness there said. The projectile jammed halfway up the barrel and ripped the cannon in half. The back of the gun flared open like a stainless steel tulip strewn with metal fragments. The concrete containment was mostly blasted into the air as a cloud reduced to rubble and dust. It also punched a crater about 3-feet in diameter and about 3-feet deep into the rocky desert hardpan and the 1-foot thick platform of plywood and 2x8 planks upon which all rested was reduced to a shower of splinters. This cannon and everything that Papp did was patented. This official validation of a LERN technology is unprecedented. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: ** ** http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html ** ** ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
A couple of blasting caps is easily concealed by a scam artist who can build a 300 mph submarine using parts from a washing machine . From: Axil Axil If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2M http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded feature=player_embedded You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html From: Axil Axil More from the Monograph as follows: Where does the explosive force come from? The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let's, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is barrier suppression ionization. The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster's inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by barrier suppression ionization, the designers of the Papp reaction must satisfy two main engineering goals: first, large noble gas clusters must be formulated, and two, copious amounts of high energy x-ray photons must be produced. Where Excess Power Comes From The Excess energy might come about when the x-ray photons lower the coulomb barrier during the cluster explosion chain reaction process. Barrier suppression ionization changes the way electrostatic charge attraction and repulsion work; that is, it modifies the vacuum energy. When the cluster explodes and the cluster is destroyed and electrons are drained from the gas, the rule of electrostatic charge repulsion returns back to normal The bigger the cluster that can be fabricated, the more energy is derived from the cluster explosion chain reaction
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
The Papp cannon test was moderated under the control, supervision, and auspices of the US Navy and their various subcontractors. Also, Papp's last two-cylinder engine finally ran, on June 18, 1981. A videotape of that demonstration was sent to the patent office to validate the new engine's patent application. It was granted. And even more, the patent office was so impressed that it nominated his engine as one of the year's best patents, but consistent with his strange ways, Papp refused to participate in the award ceremony. Cheers: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: A couple of blasting caps is easily concealed by a scam artist who can build a 300 mph submarine using parts from a washing machine … ** ** ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil ** ** If you can beleive your oun eyes, this is how powerful the Papp reaction can become as follows: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2tuk31pS2Mfeature=player_embedded You should preface this fantastic work of science fiction with the true story of Josef Papp told here: http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/comments/papp.html *From:* Axil Axil More from the Monograph as follows: *Where does the explosive force come from?* The force produced in the Papp engine comes from the explosion of these clusters of gas and water atoms under the excitation of ultraviolet and x-rays. As the energy of this EMF goes up so does the explosive power of the clusters. When TNT explodes, the mass of the expanding gas is high but the speed of the associated shockwave is relatively low. On the other hand, the shockwave produced in the Papp cluster explosion reaction is some appreciable fraction of the speed of light even if the mass of the gas ions involved in the cluster fragment expansion is small when compared to what happens in a chemical based explosion. Even with these large differences in the parameters in the equation of force, the forces produced in these two dissimilar reactions; that is, between chemical explosion and electromagnetic shockwave generation as a product of the mass and velocity is similar in magnitude. The more a cluster is ionized, the easier it is for x-ray photons to further ionize additional electrons in that cluster. Energy levels in bulk materials are significantly different from materials in the nanoscale. Let’s, put it this way: Adding energy to a confined system such as a cluster is like putting a tiger in a cage. A tiger in a big zoo with open fields will act more relaxed, because he has a lot of room to wander around. If you now confine him in smaller and smaller areas, he gets nervous and agitated. It's a lot that way with electrons. If they're free to move all around through a metal, they have low energy. Put them together in a cluster and beam x-rays on them, they get very excited and try to get out of the structure. In getting to the breaking point, when the ionized cluster eventually reaches an ionization limit where the remaining electrons cannot sustain the structural integrity of the cluster any longer, an explosive disintegration of the cluster and subsequent plasma expansion of the positive ions and electrons which once formed the cluster occurs. Multi-electron ionization of molecules and clusters can be realized by photoionization of strong x-ray photons. The multi-electron ionization leads to an explosive disintegration of the cluster together with the production of multi-charged atomic ions fragments. The kinetic energy of the product ions formed by this explosion is of the order of several or tens eV in a diatomic, hundreds of eV in small van der Waals(VDW) clusters, and 100 KeV to 1 MeV in large (n 1000) VDW clusters. What causes this accelerating weakening of the structure under the onslaught of x-ray photons radiation is “barrier suppression ionization”.* *** The initial arrival of x-ray photons begin the formation of plasma that is localized within the cluster itself. The electrons initially dislodged by the x-ray photons orbit around the outside of the cluster. These electrons lower the coulomb barrier holding the electrons that remain orbiting the cluster’s inner atoms. These remaining electrons reside in the inner orbits closer in to the nuclei of their atoms. Excess electric negative charge in the gas carrying the clusters will also add to the suppression of the coulomb barrier further supporting cascading cluster ionization. Papp uses every trick in the book to pack as many electrons in the noble gas mix as he possibly can. When enough electrons are removed, the structure of the cluster cannot sustain itself any longer and the cluster explodes. In order to take advantage of the energy produced by “barrier suppression ionization”, the designers
RE: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
Axil, you shouldn't be name-dropping if you do not know the facts. Did you check to see if McKubre has a financial interest in one (or more) of the companies promoting the Papp technology? He was on the Board of one of them several years ago IIRC. This does not mean that he cannot offer an unbiased opinion, but notice that he does not speak from personal experience . it is what Bob told me and it is about events that happened over thirty years ago. Since he cannot personally vouch for having seen an engine self-running - then why mention his name? Answer: because all the other evidence is even weaker. Where is the magic engine from the Nolan demo? Or the affidavits that the Patent Office cannot find. Do you have a million dollar (no billion dollar) engine running - and then later send it to the junk yard, retire to Florida and never mention it again? Maybe you do if you know it was ever more a scam. From: Axil Axil From the panel, McKubre felt compelled to offer testimony to the validity, promise, power and the mystery of Papp technology.
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
IIsn’t this a testimony to first hand experimental experience? “…I said ok, a different group in a similar configuration, if you can show me ten times more energy coming out than the electrical energy input, and my day job is, as I said, is careful measurements of energy. Input energy, output energy. So we set up the test, showed them what to do, made the measurements. And yes, there was at least ten times more energy being produced than electrical input energy. And at that point, I got semi-hooked. If not a firsthand testimony, what do these words say in reality? …another con man? Chees: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Axil, you shouldn’t be name-dropping if you do not know the facts. ** ** Did you check to see if McKubre has a financial interest in one (or more) of the companies promoting the Papp technology? He was on the Board of one of them several years ago IIRC. ** ** This does not mean that he cannot offer an unbiased opinion, but notice that he does not speak from personal experience … it is “what Bob told me” and it is about events that happened over thirty years ago. Since he cannot personally vouch for having seen an engine self-running – then why mention his name? ** ** Answer: because all the other evidence is even weaker. ** ** Where is the magic engine from the Nolan demo? Or the affidavits that the Patent Office cannot find. Do you have a million dollar (no billion dollar) engine running - and then later send it to the junk yard, retire to Florida and never mention it again? Maybe you do if you know it was ever more a scam. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil *Fr*om the panel, McKubre felt compelled to offer testimony to the validity, promise, power and the mystery of Papp technology. ** **
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
This is not consistent with what Bob Rohner told me, as of last August, about his popper. He said he could not yet attest over-unity, although possibly because his measurement instrumentation was inadequate. On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: IIsn’t this a testimony to first hand experimental experience? “…I said ok, a different group in a similar configuration, if you can show me ten times more energy coming out than the electrical energy input, and my day job is, as I said, is careful measurements of energy. Input energy, output energy. So we set up the test, showed them what to do, made the measurements. And yes, there was at least ten times more energy being produced than electrical input energy. And at that point, I got semi-hooked. If not a firsthand testimony, what do these words say in reality? …another con man? Chees: Axil On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: Axil, you shouldn’t be name-dropping if you do not know the facts. ** ** Did you check to see if McKubre has a financial interest in one (or more) of the companies promoting the Papp technology? He was on the Board of one of them several years ago IIRC. ** ** This does not mean that he cannot offer an unbiased opinion, but notice that he does not speak from personal experience … it is “what Bob told me” and it is about events that happened over thirty years ago. Since he cannot personally vouch for having seen an engine self-running – then why mention his name? ** ** Answer: because all the other evidence is even weaker. ** ** Where is the magic engine from the Nolan demo? Or the affidavits that the Patent Office cannot find. Do you have a million dollar (no billion dollar) engine running - and then later send it to the junk yard, retire to Florida and never mention it again? Maybe you do if you know it was ever more a scam. ** ** ** ** *From:* Axil Axil *Fr*om the panel, McKubre felt compelled to offer testimony to the validity, promise, power and the mystery of Papp technology. ** **
Re: [Vo]:RE: [Vo]:chlorine - hydrogen ion explosion
In reply to Jones Beene's message of Thu, 14 Mar 2013 08:49:18 -0700: Hi, [snip] For what it's worth: 1) The chemical chain reaction that occurs when H2 and CL2 combine looks like this: H2 + Cl = HCL + H H + CL2 = HCL + Cl The UV light is needed to create a few free radicals to start the process. Note that atomic H is one of the intermediaries, and 2) According to Mills, HCL is a Hydrino catalyst. H + HCL = Hy. So if this reaction is occurring then it would be OU, and the HCL formed could be recycled externally into H2 and Cl2 (as Scragg suggested.) I wonder if the reaction is so powerful when Bromine is substituted for Chlorine? (AFAIK Mills hasn't claimed that HBr is a Mills catalyst.) I wrote to Mills years ago pointing out the Scragg patents. Perhaps that's what led him to determine that HCL was a catalyst. [snip] The chlorine-hydrogen photoactivated reaction is the only chemical reaction which is known to produce nuclear reactions (when deuterium is used in place of hydrogen). Neutrons are stripped from the deuterium in that case. From that detail, one might opine that it is the most powerful chemical reaction in nature, but to use it in an engine, the reactants would still need to be recycled somehow in an asymmetric way, and the engine would become neutron-activated, and radioactive over time. Note also that if D is present in H (and there usually is), then one might expect deuterinos to form. A severely shrunken HD molecule might get close enough to the Cl nucleus for the neutron to jump ship and tunnel into the Cl nucleus. e.g. 35Cl + Dnucleus = 36Cl + proton + 6.35 MeV or 37Cl + Dnucleus = 38Cl + proton + 3.9 MeV I suspect that the neutron transfer reaction may be more likely than a proton transfer reaction because the proton would have to tunnel against the charge on the Cl nucleus, whereas the neutron has no such problem. An individual Deuterino may also be able to do this. (This may actually explain all neutron stripping reactions). Both 36Cl 38Cl are radioactive. Does anyone know if these have been detected in the residue after an explosion? (All Hydrogen contains a small fraction of deuterium, and 38Cl produces energetic gamma rays). BTW using Boron for the walls of the container would result in the neutron tunneling into the B10 nucleus, safely converting it into B11. Hopefully, in that case the energy is carried away by the remaining proton from the deuterium. [snip] Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
