Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
The challenge with reading file formats vs writing plugins to particular applications is that you need to be able to parse and make sense of the file format. In some cases this is quite difficult, because the file format often has to be reverse engineered and may be tied to specific implementation details of the application. 3D Studio Max files are particularly infamous for this, going so far as to actually include the names of the plugin DLLs that were used to in creating the model, which is why you don't see any other software that can read .max files. The trend, hopefully, is towards interoperable file formats (like X3D and Collada are picking up some steam) so that modeling programs can export to common, well documented formats that applications like VOS can read in. Vendor lock-in through file formats is especially severe in the world of 3D data, where unlike text documents you don't have the last-ditch option of exporting to plain text, or printing it out and scanning it back in... On Tue, Jan 23, 2007 at 08:05:03PM +, sconzey wrote: > Maybe a set of shell scripts, rather than plugins for the actual > application... > > have a blend2cod, and a obj2cod and a lwo2cod etc... > > On 1/21/07, Jason Heblack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:38:45 -0500, Reed Hedges wrote: > > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 02:34:06PM +0100, swe wrote: > > > > > >> Its nice that one can use blender to convert models, but thats another > > >> barrier to download, keeping people from attending. > > > Are there other modeling tools that it would be nice to support? > > > Sketchup would be a good one I think, it's really easy to use and is > > > becoming popular and well known through its association with Google Earth. -- [ Peter Amstutz ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ][ [EMAIL PROTECTED] ] [Lead Programmer][Interreality Project][Virtual Reality for the Internet] [ VOS: Next Generation Internet Communication][ http://interreality.org ] [ http://interreality.org/~tetron ][ pgpkey: pgpkeys.mit.edu 18C21DF7 ] signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
Maybe a set of shell scripts, rather than plugins for the actual application... have a blend2cod, and a obj2cod and a lwo2cod etc... On 1/21/07, Jason Heblack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:38:45 -0500, Reed Hedges wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 02:34:06PM +0100, swe wrote: > > > >> Its nice that one can use blender to convert models, but thats another > >> barrier to download, keeping people from attending. > > Are there other modeling tools that it would be nice to support? > > Sketchup would be a good one I think, it's really easy to use and is > > becoming popular and well known through its association with Google Earth. > > > > > *"The BRL-CAD package is a powerful Constructive Solid Geometry (CSG) > solid modeling system with over 20 years development and production use > by the U.S. military. BRL-CAD includes an interactive geometry editor, > parallel ray-tracing support for rendering and geometric analysis, > path-tracing for realistic image synthesis, network distributed > framebuffer support, image-processing and signal-processing tools. The > entire package is distributed in source code form." --- BRL-CAD Homepage > > That said, it would be nice to have a 3d man program for dragonflybsd or > longhorn. > > *-- > Please reply back to this note using your email program. > jh > > > ___ > vos-d mailing list > vos-d@interreality.org > http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d > -- QOTD: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" -- Isaac Asimov GPG Public Key: http://www.jargonjunkie.com/rants/scones.asc Website: http://www.jargonjunkie.com/ ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
On Sat, 20 Jan 2007 09:38:45 -0500, Reed Hedges wrote: > On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 02:34:06PM +0100, swe wrote: > >> Its nice that one can use blender to convert models, but thats another >> barrier to download, keeping people from attending. > Are there other modeling tools that it would be nice to support? > Sketchup would be a good one I think, it's really easy to use and is > becoming popular and well known through its association with Google Earth. > > *"The BRL-CAD package is a powerful Constructive Solid Geometry (CSG) solid modeling system with over 20 years development and production use by the U.S. military. BRL-CAD includes an interactive geometry editor, parallel ray-tracing support for rendering and geometric analysis, path-tracing for realistic image synthesis, network distributed framebuffer support, image-processing and signal-processing tools. The entire package is distributed in source code form." --- BRL-CAD Homepage That said, it would be nice to have a 3d man program for dragonflybsd or longhorn. *-- Please reply back to this note using your email program. jh ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 02:34:06PM +0100, swe wrote: > Its nice that one can use blender to convert models, but thats another > barrier to download, keeping people from attending. It's much easier to develop a world in a modeling program than by hand. Hacking a XOD file (or a VRML) file can only really get you so far. That said, doing online tweaks and small edits is essential. The old terangreal had a basic GUI for editing object properties but the current version doesn't have that yet. I've been thinking about how to do that. I think what would be best is to have a seperate library that implements a Vobject editing GUI in wxWidgets, so you could reuse that GUI within Terangreal, or in a standalone editor. It would present a tab for each type that a vobject has with type-specific controls (e.g. an A3DL objet3d would have controls to change its texture, material, position, etc.) It could also have ways to manipulate the vobject structure and just edit any property. (Currently you need to use mesh to do that kind of thing but it's a command-line text tool.) Right now you can export a COD from Blender. A3DL doesn't support all of Blender's features so not everything will work right in terms of textures and lighting, but all normal geometry should work. You can also export an ASE file from 3D Studio Max (and mabye other programs)? And use a little command line tool to convert that to a COD. (though it would be nice to have an omnivos plugin which could load ASE files directly perhaps). Are there other modeling tools that it would be nice to support? Sketchup would be a good one I think, it's really easy to use and is becoming popular and well known through its association with Google Earth. Reed ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
Hi List, On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, S Mattison wrote: > Hermetic: Awesome ideas! thanx > database, and put it in the program as a new feature. And as I don't know > programming languages that well... I'll really have to rely on someone > else's programming ability, I believe. > > Anybody out there willing to work with me on this one? yup > On 1/15/07, sconzey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> I'm with hermetic here, while the code is comparitavely well >> documented, there's little on content generation at all. >> >> However, on the flip side, this is an open source project, and you've >> just found a way to contribute. yup, my mail was ment like that. Im willing to help, but I lack a lot of infos and did not find too much on the vos docs yet beyond the level of writing own c++ code, thats why I wrote. To all newer on this list, Im developing a browser based build-up 3d pirates-game, technic is php/mysql/vrml. While shared events are possible with that, its a lot of work to make a system vos already has, including its stabile 3dchat. (some screenshots: http://www.cyworx.com/viewtopic.php?t=26&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15 notice the lack of shadows and the bad water of the old vrml viewer used) To Peters new mail on list: That sourceforge is good news! And thanks you bring me a bit more understanding about the .cod .xod. history. I will experiment a bit more around with it. Sad that emma3d is not part of vos now, it looks on their site like they dont have much activity since some time. CU hermetic ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
Hopefully, when I'm better at coding, I can code an internal world editor that lets you right-click on objects if you have permissions to them, the way you can in ActiveWorlds, and move them around, or rightclick on your character in a free-edit world, to add new objects. Then it'll just be a matter of having the right object files in the right directories, and putting the right sounds and textures on them... hopefully. ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 02:34:06PM +0100, swe wrote: > Hi VOS-developer, > > I downloaded the new terangreal, new box world looks nice: good idea to > have the move explaination in first sight! > Funny little pyramid and penguin online then ;) Thanks! Hopefully we can eventually have a whole tutorial within the vos world. > Ok, but thats still all one can find easy if one wants to attend own stuff > to vos from a non-hardcore-coder perspecive. Well, you're right. It isn't suitable for non-technical users at this point. However, I think we've learned a lot about the importance of user interface since then and hope to do better in the future. Actually, one of the major challenges is the fact that we're trying to develop for several platforms, so just in terms of tools we have to do everything three times to make it fit well with each operating system. > The blocks.cod is compressed (wow! saves 50 bytes?) > and in cod-format (why not using a more human readable and editable .xod > too?) "COD" stands for Compact Object Description and came before "XOD" (XML Object Description). The blender exporter we wrote produces COD files because I hadn't created the XOD format at that time, and haven't had a chance to go back and rewrite the exporter to support another export format. Also the world files store textures and mesh data in binary formats, but the XML-based XOD format can't store binary data at this time. > What do I need to convert .cod back to .xod? > Where do I find infos about that? > Or better, can I write my worlds in (ok static?)vrml and convert to .xod > by a tool? Reed has been working on a tool to convert from VRML to A3DL (XOD) but I'm not sure how sophisticated it is yet. > Where do I get them? > > All that infos could help new users to get more involved in vos I think. > Why not include such examples in the download? This (and everything else) is a time issue, basically. VOS was developed when Reed and I were attending University together, and since then we've graduated and had much less time to work on it due to having a full-time job, girlfriends/wives, etc. That said, suppose now is a good a time as any to announce to the list that I'm in the process of drawing up a business plan for being able to work on VOS full time. I'm in discussion with the Free Software Foundation and others about possible sources of funding. This is a long-term thing (the earliest I would be able to start doing this full time would be July) but it'll mean a lot for the project, since I'll be able to focus on it completely, support users, and generally get everything done I've been meaning to do for a long time. I've come to the conclusion that what we're trying to do is simply too big of a problem to be solved by a few open source hobbists in any reasonable amount of time (or more to the point, the world will have moved on to something else before we have something usable). So by turning VOS development into a business effort (while still based on free software principals) I think I stand a good chance of being in a position to really make a difference. > Further more, if you look at the free blaxxun community: one central > feature is a 'world'-list where user can promote own worlds: > Why not add an interface or upload button so user can create > own worlds or add static objects (given in common formats like > .obj/.3ds/vrml?) to the first VOS world? We were working towards this. Also an earlier version of VOS had exactly the kind of master server world list you're describing, but like a lot of things we haven't gotten a chance to integrate it into the current version. > Its nice that one can use blender to convert models, but thats another > barrier to download, keeping people from attending. > > Also I think the first VOS worlds should show what possibilities > (->shadows? water? layers? mediaformats? sounds?-> I remember you added > the emma3d features to vos?) VOS can use. > If you want more users and especial content designers, the first steps > should show why VOS is good for them. I'm not sure where you got the idea we had anything to do with Emma3d -- I think I might have floated the idea of VOS and Emma3d working together on the Emma3d forums, but nothing ever came of it. > Or think it from a different perspecitve, why SL makes user want to be > part of it? > Show them that SL is 'dead-end-tech' (a word SL-hype has for other > communities ;)! > > Anyway, I would like to bring some models into vos. Like a pirate > ship? Maybe a little island? One there outside can help me to get a water > surface working and convert/upload stuff on main server? > > The knowledge that vos is the better system is not enought. I feel that VOS *will* be the better system because it's based on better ideas, but to be realistic it's not there yet. It's not, at the moment, good for much beyond a proof-of-concept demo to show that our ideas will ac
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
Hermetic: Awesome ideas! While I could easily create a secured MySQL database of "world names and URLs", and even a PHP file that accesses the list and puts it into a tidy table, what I can't do is make the people who know how to program access my database, and put it in the program as a new feature. And as I don't know programming languages that well... I'll really have to rely on someone else's programming ability, I believe. Anybody out there willing to work with me on this one? On 1/15/07, sconzey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I'm with hermetic here, while the code is comparitavely well documented, there's little on content generation at all. However, on the flip side, this is an open source project, and you've just found a way to contribute. -sconzey ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
Re: [vos-d] vos needs to be easier for designers to get in
I'm with hermetic here, while the code is comparitavely well documented, there's little on content generation at all. However, on the flip side, this is an open source project, and you've just found a way to contribute. -sconzey On 1/15/07, swe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi VOS-developer, > > I downloaded the new terangreal, new box world looks nice: good idea to > have the move explaination in first sight! > Funny little pyramid and penguin online then ;) > > Ok, but thats still all one can find easy if one wants to attend own stuff > to vos from a non-hardcore-coder perspecive. > > I checked a lot of (not of very useful for this intend) theoretical docs > on the vos website, till I found eventually that the world definitions > are in the .xod files. > > So this info lead me to the first box world is stored in > 3dworld-blocks.xod in main folder and the detailed stuff is in > /worlds/blocks.cod.gz > > (hell why is not a simple README.txt or HOW_TO_EDIT_WORLD.txt in the > main folder explaining such?) > > The blocks.cod is compressed (wow! saves 50 bytes?) > and in cod-format (why not using a more human readable and editable .xod > too?) > What do I need to convert .cod back to .xod? > Where do I find infos about that? > Or better, can I write my worlds in (ok static?)vrml and convert to .xod > by a tool? > Where do I get them? > > All that infos could help new users to get more involved in vos I think. > Why not include such examples in the download? > > Further more, if you look at the free blaxxun community: one central > feature is a 'world'-list where user can promote own worlds: > Why not add an interface or upload button so user can create > own worlds or add static objects (given in common formats like > .obj/.3ds/vrml?) to the first VOS world? > > Its nice that one can use blender to convert models, but thats another > barrier to download, keeping people from attending. > > Also I think the first VOS worlds should show what possibilities > (->shadows? water? layers? mediaformats? sounds?-> I remember you added > the emma3d features to vos?) VOS can use. > If you want more users and especial content designers, the first steps > should show why VOS is good for them. > > Or think it from a different perspecitve, why SL makes user want to be > part of it? > Show them that SL is 'dead-end-tech' (a word SL-hype has for other > communities ;)! > > Anyway, I would like to bring some models into vos. Like a pirate > ship? Maybe a little island? One there outside can help me to get a water > surface working and convert/upload stuff on main server? > > The knowledge that vos is the better system is not enought. > > so far my ideas about > > hermetic > > ( online island editor example: > http://www.cyworx.com/worlds/piratez9/index.wrl ) > > > On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, Peter Amstutz wrote: > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2007 at 09:15:37PM -0500, Reed Hedges wrote: > > > >> Cory Linden (I forget his real name) did a Q&A about open-sourcing the > >> client, and someone asked him if they think that also open-sourcing the > >> server would hurt SL from a business perspective, and he said "No". But > >> I wonder if they do have plans on doing it. > > > > Well, seeing as how they aren't making any money off of Second > > Life as it is, it would be hard to hurt their business any more than > > they're already doing themselves. > > > > > ___ > vos-d mailing list > vos-d@interreality.org > http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d > -- QOTD: "Violence is the last resort of the incompetent" -- Isaac Asimov GPG Public Key: http://www.jargonjunkie.com/rants/scones.asc Website: http://www.jargonjunkie.com/ ___ vos-d mailing list vos-d@interreality.org http://www.interreality.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vos-d
