Re: [SPAM] WebObjects-Projects?

[Ramsey Gurley]

One could argue a lot of good developers are never going to “get” the beauty of 
WO either.

http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-learning-haskell-python-makes-you-a-worse-programmer/

Both of these are strongly typed. Which do you prefer, Haskell:

add x y = x + y

or Java:

public int add(int x, int y) { return x + y; }
public short add(short x, short y) { return x + y;}
public float add(float x, float y) { return x+ y; }
public double ...

… and so on with every possible combination you can think of. Even that’s being 
charitable, since Integer x/y would require null checking/exception handling.


On Mar 18, 2014, at 9:08 AM, Altera WO Team  wrote:

> I can quote every single line of Maik's email.
> 
> We have a lot of happy clients with running WO apps and we use WO all the 
> time. The problem of finding good new developers is the same, we need good 
> developers and that is hard, a good developer can be easily turned into a 
> good WO developer. A bad developer is never going to "get" the beauty of WO...
> 
> 
> Matteo
> 
> On 07 Mar 2014, at 17:36, Musall Maik  wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> we have dozens of active WO-based projects running for happy customers. Our 
>> company has been doing WO since the early beginnings, and we still use it 
>> all the time for new projects if it fits the needs. Which it most often 
>> does, usually accompanied by some Javascript frameworks.
>> 
>> Like a lot of you, we regularly inherit new projects from other firms that 
>> tried to do it in some fashion way and failed, leaving us in the situation 
>> to do it from scratch with a small initial budget and no time. And usually 
>> we succeed, using WO.
>> 
>> Am 07.03.2014 um 16:50 schrieb James Cicenia :
>> 
>>> Yep. WO is dead. 
>>> 
>>> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
>>> development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. 
>>> Thoughts?
>> 
>> And we also have projects that are far too complex to be done in node.js or 
>> Ruby. Ruby is a performance nightmare and hasn’t a good security record 
>> either. Twitter moved away from Ruby to JVM (though not Java) for 
>> performance reasons years ago. The WO app I’m working on most of the time 
>> has ongoing full time development since 2007, now at 780,000 lines of Java 
>> code and counting, and has a complexity in it’s business logic that I cannot 
>> imagine being done in a dynamic, less strictly typed language. I couldn’t 
>> refactor anything really, and it would all be a big pile of technical dept 
>> by now.
>> 
>> node.js is nice for javascript hipsters that don’t want to bother learning 
>> another language for the backend.
>> 
>> The biggest problem for us is to find good new developers, even though I 
>> don’t care whether they ever heard of WO or not. I joined Selbstdenker AG in 
>> 2008, wasn’t really into Java until then (but other OO languages), even 
>> didn’t any web development, and picked up stuff within weeks. I think every 
>> experienced dev can get into this quickly if he has colleagues to help 
>> him/her up to speed.
>> 
>> Yes, WO has shortcomings and smells funny, but it’s not dead yet. It’s an 
>> old cold-blooded, shabby workhorse we are riding, but all the foals and 
>> pretty racehorses often just aren’t up to the task. We’re keeping our eyes 
>> open for more modern alternatives, but aren’t jumping right onto the next 
>> framework being hyped on twitter that could be obsolete again soon.
>> 
>> Maik
>> 
>> ___
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Re: [SPAM] WebObjects-Projects?

[Jean-François Veillette]

Le 2014-03-18 à 12:08, Altera WO Team  a écrit :

> I can quote every single line of Maik's email.
> 
> We have a lot of happy clients with running WO apps and we use WO all the 
> time. The problem of finding good new developers is the same, we need good 
> developers and that is hard, a good developer can be easily turned into a 
> good WO developer. A bad developer is never going to "get" the beauty of WO...

Yes!

Good developer will write nice, elegant, optimal, readable and clean code ... 
even in PHP (but they will hate it) ... they will learn WO and love it!
Bad developer will write messy (spaghetti) code ... even in java+WebObjects 
(and his team will hate him) ... they will learn WO and never understand / get 
it.
The problem is not in finding webobjects developer, but simply finding « good » 
developer!

jfv


> On 07 Mar 2014, at 17:36, Musall Maik  wrote:
> 
>> Hi folks,
>> 
>> we have dozens of active WO-based projects running for happy customers. Our 
>> company has been doing WO since the early beginnings, and we still use it 
>> all the time for new projects if it fits the needs. Which it most often 
>> does, usually accompanied by some Javascript frameworks.
>> 
>> Like a lot of you, we regularly inherit new projects from other firms that 
>> tried to do it in some fashion way and failed, leaving us in the situation 
>> to do it from scratch with a small initial budget and no time. And usually 
>> we succeed, using WO.
>> 
>> Am 07.03.2014 um 16:50 schrieb James Cicenia :
>> 
>>> Yep. WO is dead. 
>>> 
>>> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
>>> development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. 
>>> Thoughts?
>> 
>> And we also have projects that are far too complex to be done in node.js or 
>> Ruby. Ruby is a performance nightmare and hasn’t a good security record 
>> either. Twitter moved away from Ruby to JVM (though not Java) for 
>> performance reasons years ago. The WO app I’m working on most of the time 
>> has ongoing full time development since 2007, now at 780,000 lines of Java 
>> code and counting, and has a complexity in it’s business logic that I cannot 
>> imagine being done in a dynamic, less strictly typed language. I couldn’t 
>> refactor anything really, and it would all be a big pile of technical dept 
>> by now.
>> 
>> node.js is nice for javascript hipsters that don’t want to bother learning 
>> another language for the backend.
>> 
>> The biggest problem for us is to find good new developers, even though I 
>> don’t care whether they ever heard of WO or not. I joined Selbstdenker AG in 
>> 2008, wasn’t really into Java until then (but other OO languages), even 
>> didn’t any web development, and picked up stuff within weeks. I think every 
>> experienced dev can get into this quickly if he has colleagues to help 
>> him/her up to speed.
>> 
>> Yes, WO has shortcomings and smells funny, but it’s not dead yet. It’s an 
>> old cold-blooded, shabby workhorse we are riding, but all the foals and 
>> pretty racehorses often just aren’t up to the task. We’re keeping our eyes 
>> open for more modern alternatives, but aren’t jumping right onto the next 
>> framework being hyped on twitter that could be obsolete again soon.
>> 
>> Maik
>> 
>> ___
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>> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
>> https://lists.apple.com/mailman/options/webobjects-dev/webobjects%40altera.it
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> 
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Re: [SPAM] WebObjects-Projects?

[Altera WO Team]

I can quote every single line of Maik's email.

We have a lot of happy clients with running WO apps and we use WO all the time. 
The problem of finding good new developers is the same, we need good developers 
and that is hard, a good developer can be easily turned into a good WO 
developer. A bad developer is never going to "get" the beauty of WO...


Matteo

On 07 Mar 2014, at 17:36, Musall Maik  wrote:

> Hi folks,
> 
> we have dozens of active WO-based projects running for happy customers. Our 
> company has been doing WO since the early beginnings, and we still use it all 
> the time for new projects if it fits the needs. Which it most often does, 
> usually accompanied by some Javascript frameworks.
> 
> Like a lot of you, we regularly inherit new projects from other firms that 
> tried to do it in some fashion way and failed, leaving us in the situation to 
> do it from scratch with a small initial budget and no time. And usually we 
> succeed, using WO.
> 
> Am 07.03.2014 um 16:50 schrieb James Cicenia :
> 
>> Yep. WO is dead. 
>> 
>> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
>> development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. 
>> Thoughts?
> 
> And we also have projects that are far too complex to be done in node.js or 
> Ruby. Ruby is a performance nightmare and hasn’t a good security record 
> either. Twitter moved away from Ruby to JVM (though not Java) for performance 
> reasons years ago. The WO app I’m working on most of the time has ongoing 
> full time development since 2007, now at 780,000 lines of Java code and 
> counting, and has a complexity in it’s business logic that I cannot imagine 
> being done in a dynamic, less strictly typed language. I couldn’t refactor 
> anything really, and it would all be a big pile of technical dept by now.
> 
> node.js is nice for javascript hipsters that don’t want to bother learning 
> another language for the backend.
> 
> The biggest problem for us is to find good new developers, even though I 
> don’t care whether they ever heard of WO or not. I joined Selbstdenker AG in 
> 2008, wasn’t really into Java until then (but other OO languages), even 
> didn’t any web development, and picked up stuff within weeks. I think every 
> experienced dev can get into this quickly if he has colleagues to help 
> him/her up to speed.
> 
> Yes, WO has shortcomings and smells funny, but it’s not dead yet. It’s an old 
> cold-blooded, shabby workhorse we are riding, but all the foals and pretty 
> racehorses often just aren’t up to the task. We’re keeping our eyes open for 
> more modern alternatives, but aren’t jumping right onto the next framework 
> being hyped on twitter that could be obsolete again soon.
> 
> Maik
> 
> ___
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Nilton Lessa]

Enviado via iPad

> Em 07/03/2014, às 22:12, Chuck Hill  escreveu:
> 
> 
> 
> On 2014-03-07, 4:51 PM, "Ray Kiddy" wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:50:01 -0600
> James Cicenia  wrote:
> 
> Yep. WO is dead.
> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and
> iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the
> back end. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> 
> "WebObjects" as a brand has been DOA for a while.
> 
> Ray Kiddy, Master of Understatement
> 
> :-)
> 
> If your business is selling WO as a technology, just give up and go home.  
> The winning strategy, as many have pointed out in the past and continue to 
> successfully implement, is to sell solving business problems in a cost 
> effective way.  Keep the word “WebObjects” to yourself.
+1

Nilton

> 
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 
> The technology still
> works. Even with much to lament about WOLips, it works. I am using it
> on Ubuntu and there is a surprising lack of suckage in the tools.
> Although it is also true that I may finally be developing more of a
> tolerance for suckage in general.
> 
> I am learning Clojure and I have a suspicion that functional
> programming is going to (once I grok what I am looking at) be an easier
> way to do things like REST apps. Also, is there a rule-system based
> technology in WO that people keep using? Yeah, ya betcha. And if a rule
> engine does not end up being easier to manage in a functional language,
> then I must be missing something.
> 
> One last point. I still end up referring to my copies of, for instance,
> the EOF Developer's Guide, written for OpenStep. So, if something
> has died, why are these concepts still useful?
> 
> - ray
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Chuck Hill]

On 2014-03-07, 4:51 PM, "Ray Kiddy" wrote:

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:50:01 -0600
James Cicenia mailto:ja...@jimijon.com>> wrote:

Yep. WO is dead.
I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and
iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the
back end. Thoughts?



"WebObjects" as a brand has been DOA for a while.

Ray Kiddy, Master of Understatement

:-)

If your business is selling WO as a technology, just give up and go home.  The 
winning strategy, as many have pointed out in the past and continue to 
successfully implement, is to sell solving business problems in a cost 
effective way.  Keep the word “WebObjects” to yourself.


Chuck


The technology still
works. Even with much to lament about WOLips, it works. I am using it
on Ubuntu and there is a surprising lack of suckage in the tools.
Although it is also true that I may finally be developing more of a
tolerance for suckage in general.

I am learning Clojure and I have a suspicion that functional
programming is going to (once I grok what I am looking at) be an easier
way to do things like REST apps. Also, is there a rule-system based
technology in WO that people keep using? Yeah, ya betcha. And if a rule
engine does not end up being easier to manage in a functional language,
then I must be missing something.

One last point. I still end up referring to my copies of, for instance,
the EOF Developer's Guide, written for OpenStep. So, if something
has died, why are these concepts still useful?

- ray
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Ray Kiddy]

On Fri, 07 Mar 2014 09:50:01 -0600
James Cicenia  wrote:

> Yep. WO is dead. 
> 
> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and
> iPhone development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the
> back end. Thoughts?



"WebObjects" as a brand has been DOA for a while. The technology still
works. Even with much to lament about WOLips, it works. I am using it
on Ubuntu and there is a surprising lack of suckage in the tools.
Although it is also true that I may finally be developing more of a
tolerance for suckage in general.

I am learning Clojure and I have a suspicion that functional
programming is going to (once I grok what I am looking at) be an easier
way to do things like REST apps. Also, is there a rule-system based
technology in WO that people keep using? Yeah, ya betcha. And if a rule
engine does not end up being easier to manage in a functional language,
then I must be missing something.

One last point. I still end up referring to my copies of, for instance,
the EOF Developer's Guide, written for OpenStep. So, if something
has died, why are these concepts still useful?

- ray
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Daniel Mejia]

Sure Chuck,

First of all, after version 6 Entity Framework is an open source project. You 
can find the source code in http://entityframework.codeplex.com

The first time when I learn EF I thought that they based the development on 
EOF. 

As with EOF you have many connector for different Data bases.
There is a graphical designer to design you model or you can reverse 
engineering your database or ya can define the model by code,
There is support for all kind of relationships: to-one, to-many, many-to-many 
They support Spatial types.
You can integrate with XAML thru bindings as is made in cocoa
There are way to define the relationships configurations (required, optional, 
cascade delete, etc.)
There is a context similar to EOF context
You can navigate the relationships in an Object oriented way
You can specify the attributes to check the concurrency
There is a way to define the resolution of concurrency conflicts
To search you can use LINQ, raw SQL, by primary key, store procedures, etc.
They  use lazy loading for relationship (proxy) 
Thera is support for migrations (versioning)
Of course, it is very well integrated with many other MS technologies

Well, I think that everything that I used in EOF is there (I don’t mean that 
all that is in EOF is in EF, just all that I needed).

Well, is what I remember at this moment but if you have something specific in 
mind let me know and I'll check it to see if there is something similar in EF.

I’m not working with this technology anymore, not because I don’t like it, its 
pretty good and you can find tons of info, books, code examples, etc. but for a 
new big project (big for us) we decided to use JavaScript. We decided after 
many discussions what is the best options for this project and we are convinced 
that JS is the best option for us.

Regards,

Daniel.


  

 
On Mar 7, 2014, at 13:18, Chuck Hill  wrote:

> Hi Daniel,
> 
> Can you tell us how Entity Framework measures up to EOF?  Is it better in 
> some areas?  Is it missing features in other areas?
> 
> Thanks,
> Chuck
> 
> On 2014-03-07, 7:22 AM, "Daniel Mejia" wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I would like to share my experience with WO.
> 
> We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone 
> company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this 
> company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call  
> HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this 
> systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the 
> system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we 
> have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small 
> compared with the other companies because  all the facilities of WO). The 
> system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the 
> systems. 
> 
> For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many 
> applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for 
> customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found 
> tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO.
> 
> We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not 
> perfect but for many systems has everything that you need.
> 
> Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. 
> Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy.
> 
> Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, 
> Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools 
> are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for 
> Apple.
> 
> Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough 
> developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO 
> is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people).
> 
> I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating 
> everything to the JavaScript world.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> From: Markus Ruggiero 
>> Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
>> Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST
>> To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities t

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Baiss Eric Magnusson]

On Mar 7, 2014, at 8:18 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig  wrote:


> … even beyond the beginning of WO to find the truth. "

A guess that would fit the result better than any I know would have been SimDBM 
written for the Dec-10 in Simula 67 around the year 1974 at the Swedish 
National Defense Institute, we used it at the Univ. of Washington medical 
research center.

It's why I saw the "Wonderfulness" of WO in the first two hours I saw it in 
2000 or thereabouts, ( with Gary Teter ).

And I agree, Java sucks, and I say that after beginning its proselytizing at 
the very, very beginning of its inception.

Thanks to Pascal, Chuck, etc. for sharing the magic of WO.


-Baiss Eric Magnusson|11540 Alton Ave 
NEhttp://cascadewebdesign.com  |Seattle, WA. 98125, 206-361-0718








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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Chuck Hill]

Hi Daniel,

Can you tell us how Entity Framework measures up to EOF?  Is it better in some 
areas?  Is it missing features in other areas?

Thanks,
Chuck

On 2014-03-07, 7:22 AM, "Daniel Mejia" wrote:

Hi all,

I would like to share my experience with WO.

We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone 
company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company 
they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call  HP, MS and 
many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after 
many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the 
cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that 
systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other 
companies because  all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but 
finally the get the money and changed the systems.

For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many 
applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers 
decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let 
us forget of the awesome of WO.

We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect 
but for many systems has everything that you need.

Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. 
Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy.

Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, 
nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are 
amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple.

Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough 
developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO 
is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people).

I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating 
everything to the JavaScript world.

Regards,

Daniel.





On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, 
webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com<mailto:webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com>
 wrote:


From: Markus Ruggiero 
mailto:mailingli...@kataputt.com>>
Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST
To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com<mailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com>" 
mailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com>>



On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon 
mailto:si...@webtecc.com>> wrote:

Hello,

this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side 
of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. 
I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but 
apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.

Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would 
you guys think WO really has?

Kind Regards,
Jürgen



A (sad) success story:

I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some 
very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with 
the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no 
clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF files from 
text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance of the data is 
done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to properly use WO and 
had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they build a library where 
they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) and have an instance of the 
app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a corner so to not block the 
interactive parts. I have since taken over this application and first of all 
thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned the database structure (they had 
most of the logic in the data instead of in the databse structure), implemented 
proper management of the product related spec sheets, and re-

Unfortunately corporate IT wants to take over the project and kill it (it 
doesn't fit in with their strategy), customer is furious but the decisions are 
made elsewhere. We'll see.

Another success story:

I am a part time teacher and have tried to cover the module "object oriented 
development of multiuser database applications" using Wonder. Fortunately the 
school has given me quite some slack. One of my students from last year (I am 
currently teaching this module the 3rd time) has introduced Wonder to his 
employer and could setup a new project! As far as I know both my former student 
and his boss are happy. YEAH!

It's difficult finding WO work. Wherever Java is wanted 
JEE/Hibernate/Spring/JSF/younameit is asked for, or then its dot-net. No way to 
do 

Re: [SPAM] WebObjects-Projects?

[Musall Maik]

Hi folks,

we have dozens of active WO-based projects running for happy customers. Our 
company has been doing WO since the early beginnings, and we still use it all 
the time for new projects if it fits the needs. Which it most often does, 
usually accompanied by some Javascript frameworks.

Like a lot of you, we regularly inherit new projects from other firms that 
tried to do it in some fashion way and failed, leaving us in the situation to 
do it from scratch with a small initial budget and no time. And usually we 
succeed, using WO.

Am 07.03.2014 um 16:50 schrieb James Cicenia :

> Yep. WO is dead. 
> 
> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
> development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. 
> Thoughts?

And we also have projects that are far too complex to be done in node.js or 
Ruby. Ruby is a performance nightmare and hasn’t a good security record either. 
Twitter moved away from Ruby to JVM (though not Java) for performance reasons 
years ago. The WO app I’m working on most of the time has ongoing full time 
development since 2007, now at 780,000 lines of Java code and counting, and has 
a complexity in it’s business logic that I cannot imagine being done in a 
dynamic, less strictly typed language. I couldn’t refactor anything really, and 
it would all be a big pile of technical dept by now.

node.js is nice for javascript hipsters that don’t want to bother learning 
another language for the backend.

The biggest problem for us is to find good new developers, even though I don’t 
care whether they ever heard of WO or not. I joined Selbstdenker AG in 2008, 
wasn’t really into Java until then (but other OO languages), even didn’t any 
web development, and picked up stuff within weeks. I think every experienced 
dev can get into this quickly if he has colleagues to help him/her up to speed.

Yes, WO has shortcomings and smells funny, but it’s not dead yet. It’s an old 
cold-blooded, shabby workhorse we are riding, but all the foals and pretty 
racehorses often just aren’t up to the task. We’re keeping our eyes open for 
more modern alternatives, but aren’t jumping right onto the next framework 
being hyped on twitter that could be obsolete again soon.

Maik

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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Aaron Rosenzweig]

Hah.

For WO to be dead it would have first had to have been alive. 

Java is a dead language… It is static code in a file that has to be compiled to 
byte code. It is brought back from the dead by Eclipse… like the living dead. 
Objective-C is also dead in the same manner.

WO has always been an exclusive gentleman’s club. It probably always will be. 
It is filled with arcane masters of thought… some might even draw a comparison 
with alchemists. Eccentric folk who wield their weapon of choice adeptly, 
creating solutions for those who need them. 

Seems like too many of us have forgotten the alchemic laws of “equivalent 
exchange.” In order to get something we must first give up something of equal 
value. 

Stop moaning, grab your tool, fight!

PS - with Rails everything is a Direct Action. If that’s cool with you, go 
ahead. If you just like the syntax and the interactive nature of Ruby… go back 
to the source… dig deeper… even beyond the beginning of WO to find the truth. 
AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike
e:  aa...@chatnbike.com  t:  (301) 956-2319 


On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:50 AM, James Cicenia  wrote:

> Yep. WO is dead. 
> 
> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
> development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. 
> Thoughts?
> 
> This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. 
> Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great 
> applications. And so I ask the list.
> 
> What will be in your wallet without WO?
> 
> 
> PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped 
> make my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the 
> always wonderfully cranky Anjo.
> 
> Cheers
> James
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I would like to share my experience with WO.
>> 
>> We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone 
>> company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this 
>> company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call  
>> HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this 
>> systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the 
>> system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we 
>> have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small 
>> compared with the other companies because  all the facilities of WO). The 
>> system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the 
>> systems. 
>> 
>> For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed 
>> many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for 
>> customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found 
>> tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO.
>> 
>> We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not 
>> perfect but for many systems has everything that you need.
>> 
>> Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on 
>> Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy.
>> 
>> Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, 
>> Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this 
>> tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have 
>> worked for Apple.
>> 
>> Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough 
>> developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said 
>> WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other 
>> people).
>> 
>> I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating 
>> everything to the JavaScript world.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Daniel.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Markus Ruggiero 
>>> Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
>>> Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST
>>> To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> 
>>>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>>>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after 
>>>> the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been 
>>>> down a lot. I have been looking hi

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Joel M. Benisch]

Fashion is fun for a season.

Fine clothing gets handed down through the generations
My son is currently hiking the Rockies wearing the good flannel shirts I wore 
in the 70s

The WO App we began developing in the late 90s is still in service and simply 
does't break

I know how I prefer to spend my money..

:-)

--
Joel M. Benisch CPCU, President 
973-992-6300 x303
PaperFree Corporation   
973-992- FAX
909 Regal Boulevard 
j...@paperfree.net
Livingston, NJ 07039-8249   WE CREATE PRODUCTS WE WOULD WANT TO USE!

On Mar 7, 2014, at 11:02 AM, Jesse Tayler wrote:

> 
> You know, I still get far and away the best results using WO.
> 
> I’ve been using Mongo and Node and it’s fine…I guess…if you want javascript 
> running your server.
> 
> People say you can do all these cool things, but it seems to me that mongo 
> stores arbitrary stuff that get you into trouble down the road — frankly, 
> rows and columns still make sense to me.
> 
> Node? Fine, I guess it’s easy to setup and learn and run— it sure is 
> lightweight!  but then you end up with javascript people who hack things, and 
> again, over time it does’t feel that much better to me.
> 
> NoSql? seems to be a relational database underneath anyway, so it’s fine I 
> guess — but was it something I was needing?
> 
> so, pick your poisons I guess.
> 
> WO is dead, long live WO.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:50 AM, James Cicenia  wrote:
> 
>> Yep. WO is dead. 
>> 
>> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
>> development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. 
>> Thoughts?
>> 
>> This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. 
>> Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great 
>> applications. And so I ask the list.
>> 
>> What will be in your wallet without WO?
>> 
>> 
>> PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped 
>> make my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the 
>> always wonderfully cranky Anjo.
>> 
>> Cheers
>> James
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I would like to share my experience with WO.
>>> 
>>> We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big 
>>> telephone company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department 
>>> in this company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. 
>>> They call  HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change 
>>> of this systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to 
>>> leave the system because the cost and time of development was out of they 
>>> budget (we have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost 
>>> was small compared with the other companies because  all the facilities of 
>>> WO). The system survived some time but finally the get the money and 
>>> changed the systems. 
>>> 
>>> For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed 
>>> many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for 
>>> customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found 
>>> tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO.
>>> 
>>> We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not 
>>> perfect but for many systems has everything that you need.
>>> 
>>> Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on 
>>> Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy.
>>> 
>>> Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, 
>>> Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this 
>>> tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have 
>>> worked for Apple.
>>> 
>>> Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough 
>>> developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said 
>>> WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other 
>>> people).
>>> 
>>> I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m 
>>> migrating everything to the JavaScript world.
>>> 
&g

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Jesse Tayler]

You know, I still get far and away the best results using WO.

I’ve been using Mongo and Node and it’s fine…I guess…if you want javascript 
running your server.

People say you can do all these cool things, but it seems to me that mongo 
stores arbitrary stuff that get you into trouble down the road — frankly, rows 
and columns still make sense to me.

Node? Fine, I guess it’s easy to setup and learn and run— it sure is 
lightweight!  but then you end up with javascript people who hack things, and 
again, over time it does’t feel that much better to me.

NoSql? seems to be a relational database underneath anyway, so it’s fine I 
guess — but was it something I was needing?

so, pick your poisons I guess.

WO is dead, long live WO.





On Mar 7, 2014, at 10:50 AM, James Cicenia  wrote:

> Yep. WO is dead. 
> 
> I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
> development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. 
> Thoughts?
> 
> This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. 
> Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great 
> applications. And so I ask the list.
> 
> What will be in your wallet without WO?
> 
> 
> PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped 
> make my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the 
> always wonderfully cranky Anjo.
> 
> Cheers
> James
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia  wrote:
> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> I would like to share my experience with WO.
>> 
>> We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone 
>> company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this 
>> company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call  
>> HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this 
>> systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the 
>> system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we 
>> have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small 
>> compared with the other companies because  all the facilities of WO). The 
>> system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the 
>> systems. 
>> 
>> For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed 
>> many applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for 
>> customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found 
>> tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO.
>> 
>> We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not 
>> perfect but for many systems has everything that you need.
>> 
>> Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on 
>> Grails. Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy.
>> 
>> Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, 
>> Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this 
>> tools are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have 
>> worked for Apple.
>> 
>> Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough 
>> developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said 
>> WO is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other 
>> people).
>> 
>> I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating 
>> everything to the JavaScript world.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Daniel.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Markus Ruggiero 
>>> Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
>>> Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST
>>> To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello,
>>>> 
>>>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>>>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after 
>>>> the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been 
>>>> down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with 
>>>> WO again, but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going 
>>>> on.
>>>> 
>>>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>>>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[James Cicenia]

Yep. WO is dead. 

I was thinking of starting learning Ruby. I love Objective-C and iPhone 
development. And now was thinking about Node or Ruby for the back end. Thoughts?

This also has been the finest list I have ever had the joy of participating. 
Everyone has helped, educated and scolded me to create some great applications. 
And so I ask the list.

What will be in your wallet without WO?


PS: I also want to thank Chuck, Pascal and Ramsey specifically who helped make 
my WO Apps and D2W Rock! And of course everyone else including the always 
wonderfully cranky Anjo.

Cheers
James



On Mar 7, 2014, at 9:22 AM, Daniel Mejia  wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I would like to share my experience with WO.
> 
> We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone 
> company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this 
> company they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call  
> HP, MS and many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this 
> systems, after many meetings with these people they decided to leave the 
> system because the cost and time of development was out of they budget (we 
> have developed that systems in a very short time and the cost was small 
> compared with the other companies because  all the facilities of WO). The 
> system survived some time but finally the get the money and changed the 
> systems. 
> 
> For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many 
> applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for 
> customers decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found 
> tools that let us forget of the awesome of WO.
> 
> We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not 
> perfect but for many systems has everything that you need.
> 
> Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. 
> Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy.
> 
> Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, 
> Ember, nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools 
> are amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for 
> Apple.
> 
> Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough 
> developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO 
> is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people).
> 
> I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating 
> everything to the JavaScript world.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:
> 
>> 
>> From: Markus Ruggiero 
>> Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
>> Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST
>> To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
>>> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
>>> 
>>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
>>> would you guys think WO really has?
>>> 
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Jürgen
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> A (sad) success story:
>> 
>> I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with 
>> some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on 
>> D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks 
>> who had no clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF 
>> files from text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance 
>> of the data is done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to 
>> properly use WO and had big performance problems with PDF generation. So 
>> they build a library where they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) 
>> and have an instance of the app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a 
>> corner so to not block the interactive parts. I have since taken over this 
>> application and first of all thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned 
>> the database structure (they had most of the logic in the data instead of in

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Daniel Mejia]

Hi all,

I would like to share my experience with WO.

We have developed many systems with WO, some of them was for a big telephone 
company here in Mexico. After some changes in the IT department in this company 
they decided to change all the system developed with WO. They call  HP, MS and 
many other companies to get a proposal for the change of this systems, after 
many meetings with these people they decided to leave the system because the 
cost and time of development was out of they budget (we have developed that 
systems in a very short time and the cost was small compared with the other 
companies because  all the facilities of WO). The system survived some time but 
finally the get the money and changed the systems. 

For a long time I was afraid to leave the WO dev tools. I have developed many 
applications and I can’t find any thing close to this tools. But for customers 
decision we need to look for new tools and luckily we have found tools that let 
us forget of the awesome of WO.

We have developed with Entity Framework, XAML and C#, VisualStudio, not perfect 
but for many systems has everything that you need.

Other tool that we have used for a small (tiny) projects is Groovy on Grails. 
Fast, easy to learn, develop and deploy.

Now we are very excited using the new JavaScript tools like SproutCore, Ember, 
nodeJS, MongoDB, etc.. The things that you can achieve with this tools are 
amazing. Most of the people behind SproutCore and Ember have worked for Apple.

Before we found this platforms we lost projects because the lack of enough 
developers to support the WO systems and the stories in Internet that said WO 
is dead (We know is not dead but is very hard to convince the other people).

I'm still using WO for internal and personal projects, but now I’m migrating 
everything to the JavaScript world.

Regards,

Daniel.




 
On Mar 7, 2014, at 4:34, webobjects-dev-requ...@lists.apple.com wrote:

> 
> From: Markus Ruggiero 
> Subject: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
> Date: March 7, 2014 at 4:34:50 CST
> To: "webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com" 
> 
> 
> 
> On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
>> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
>> 
>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
>> would you guys think WO really has?
>> 
>> Kind Regards,
>> Jürgen
>> 
>> 
> 
> A (sad) success story:
> 
> I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with 
> some very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on 
> D2W with the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks 
> who had no clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF 
> files from text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance 
> of the data is done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to 
> properly use WO and had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they 
> build a library where they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) and 
> have an instance of the app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a corner 
> so to not block the interactive parts. I have since taken over this 
> application and first of all thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned 
> the database structure (they had most of the logic in the data instead of in 
> the databse structure), implemented proper management of the product related 
> spec sheets, and re-
> 
> Unfortunately corporate IT wants to take over the project and kill it (it 
> doesn't fit in with their strategy), customer is furious but the decisions 
> are made elsewhere. We'll see.
> 
> Another success story:
> 
> I am a part time teacher and have tried to cover the module "object oriented 
> development of multiuser database applications" using Wonder. Fortunately the 
> school has given me quite some slack. One of my students from last year (I am 
> currently teaching this module the 3rd time) has introduced Wonder to his 
> employer and could setup a new project! As far as I know both my former 
> student and his boss are happy. YEAH!
> 
> It's difficult finding WO work. Wherever Java is wanted 
> JEE/Hibernate/Spring/JSF/younameit is asked for, or then its dot-net. No way 
> to do anything with WO. I was able to be introduced privately to an old

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Markus Ruggiero]

On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
> 
> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
> would you guys think WO really has?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jürgen
> 
> 

A (sad) success story:

I have an existing customer (large world-wide operating corporation) with some 
very old WO apps which I maintain. They also have a small app based on D2W with 
the old neutral look. This app has been created by some JEE folks who had no 
clue about WO. The app primarily generates product related PDF files from 
text-snippets stored and maintained in the database. Maintenance of the data is 
done by the D2W application. The JEE folks were not able to properly use WO and 
had big performance problems with PDF generation. So they build a library where 
they access the database with raw JDBC calls (!!) and have an instance of the 
app running on a dedicated PC somewhere in a corner so to not block the 
interactive parts. I have since taken over this application and first of all 
thrown out everything JDBC related. Redesigned the database structure (they had 
most of the logic in the data instead of in the databse structure), implemented 
proper management of the product related spec sheets, and re-implemented the 
whole process of creating the PDFs. There was an external program reading the 
database regularly looking for changes to the text snippets and product data. 
Whatever it found got wrapped up into some XML structure and then sent to a 
remote receiver. This program failed horribly because of my changing the 
database structures - and nobody really knew how that transfer program worked. 
So I reverse engineered the composed XML and built this right into the main 
application. This application has since grown considerably in functionality and 
is now being used corporate wide for the maintenance of product data and the 
related spec sheets. As soon as the user commits any changes to the database 
all the related PDFs are generated right then and there and the changes are 
automatically transferred to the remote system. Customer is HAPPY! Oh, and what 
about cost? The customer had an internal offer to recreate everything in-house 
in their big SAP system. This was wy to expensive. Total cost I billed was 
1 tenth (!!) of what the internal project would have cost. WO rocks!!

Unfortunately corporate IT wants to take over the project and kill it (it 
doesn't fit in with their strategy), customer is furious but the decisions are 
made elsewhere. We'll see.

Another success story:

I am a part time teacher and have tried to cover the module "object oriented 
development of multiuser database applications" using Wonder. Fortunately the 
school has given me quite some slack. One of my students from last year (I am 
currently teaching this module the 3rd time) has introduced Wonder to his 
employer and could setup a new project! As far as I know both my former student 
and his boss are happy. YEAH!

It's difficult finding WO work. Wherever Java is wanted 
JEE/Hibernate/Spring/JSF/younameit is asked for, or then its dot-net. No way to 
do anything with WO. I was able to be introduced privately to an older rather 
rich person who has a lot of his money stuffed away in real estate. For him I 
could develop a finance tracking application for his investments so that his 
daughter will be able to maintain the finances once he is gone (which I hope 
will not be so soon). That's a modern look ERD2W application hosted by my 
company. Customer is happy so far and plans for more.

But I agree, it is very difficult finding WO work. It's not the tools, it's not 
WO, it's probably not even the closed-source thing, it's just the buzzwords 
that are completely missing. Nobody in the Java world is even considering 
something other than JEE and friends because "that's the standard".

Sad but true.

---markus---



Markus Ruggiero
mailingli...@kataputt.com
Check out the new book about Project Wonder and WebObjects on 
http://learningthewonders.com/








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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Markus Ruggiero]

On 05.03.2014, at 22:50, Klaus Berkling  wrote:

> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley  wrote:
> 
>> [...]
> 
>> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
>> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
>> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
>> Mavericks.
> 
> 
> I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and 
> Wonder. My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current 
> job doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and 
> uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes?
> If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I 
> would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery.
> 

+1

I have quite some ideas regarding the tools, in particular for EntityModeler. 
And I have ideas for easy installation of the development environment. But then 
I also need to feed and house me and my family...

Off to buy a lottery ticket...

---markus---

> Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. 
> :-)
> 
> 
> kib
> 
> "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because 
> we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."
> Walt Disney
> 
> Klaus Berkling
> www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app 
> 
> 
> 
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Markus Ruggiero
mailingli...@kataputt.com
Check out the new book about Project Wonder and WebObjects on 
http://learningthewonders.com/







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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Timothy Worman]

 appleseed discussions may use WO as well?

Tim
UCLA GSE&IS

On Mar 5, 2014, at 1:51 PM, Pascal Robert  wrote:

> From what I learned, the iTunes group is still using WO, but the other groups 
> can use whatever they want.
> 
> - Mail original -
> De: "Gino Pacitti" 
> À: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com
> Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 16:45:47
> Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
> 
> So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? 
> Have they left WO completely?
> 
> 
> On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert  wrote:
> 
>> It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark 
>> Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long.
>> 
>> 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing 
>> anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying 
>> to improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the 
>> conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead 
>> of being full of stress.
>> 
>> - Mail original -
>> De: "Ramsey Gurley" 
>> À: "Jürgen Simon" 
>> Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com
>> Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49
>> Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
>> 
>> 
>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
>>> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
>>> 
>>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
>>> would you guys think WO really has?
>>> 
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Jürgen
>> 
>> 
>> Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO 
>> has a limited future. 
>> 
>> For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 
>> 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. 
>> I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at 
>> other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an 
>> @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems 
>> pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside.
>> 
>> Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
>> Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of 
>> contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve 
>> noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but 
>> refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality 
>> control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my 
>> repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”
>> 
>> Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
>> make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
>> smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that 
>> WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the 
>> marketing department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are 
>> horrible for SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested 
>> inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you 
>> want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... 
>> who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department 
>> wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of 
>> desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No 
>> one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to 
>> rewrite all the WO apps in something else.
>> 
>> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
>> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
>> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
>> Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. 
>> Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to 
&

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Jesse Tayler]

how about some server-side javascript?

who uses object inheritance or relies on those pesky class types anyway?

you can perform an otherwise normal database backup and say “I’m going to take 
a mongo dump now” at the office.

so, it’s not like it’s all about being effective by getting hard problems done 
in reliably designed foundations and all that sorta crap, now is it?




On Mar 5, 2014, at 7:06 PM, Klaus Berkling  wrote:

> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Timothy Worman  wrote:
> 
>> Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. 
>> Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-)
> 
> 
> YMMV, there's PHP too :-)
> 
> 
> kib
> 
> "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling 
> expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a 
> period of consequences."
> Winston Churchill
> 
> Klaus Berkling
> www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Klaus Berkling]

On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:03 PM, Timothy Worman  wrote:

> Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. 
> Maybe I can join the Apple caravan. :-)


YMMV, there's PHP too :-)


kib

"The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling 
expedients, of delays, is coming to its close. In its place we are entering a 
period of consequences."
Winston Churchill

Klaus Berkling
www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app 





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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Timothy Worman]

Oh man, am I gonna have to learn ASP if I ever want another job!!?? Crap. Maybe 
I can join the Apple caravan. :-)

Tim
UCLA GSE&IS

On Mar 5, 2014, at 1:50 PM, Klaus Berkling  wrote:

> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley  wrote:
> 
>> [...]
> 
>> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
>> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
>> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
>> Mavericks.
> 
> I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and 
> Wonder. My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current 
> job doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and 
> uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes?
> If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I 
> would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery.
> 
> Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. 
> :-)
> 
> 
> kib
> 
> "We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because 
> we're curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."
> Walt Disney
> 
> Klaus Berkling
> www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Chuck Hill]

ROFLMAO!

And Look!  An @apple.com address broke radio silence!

:-P



On 2014-03-05, 1:50 PM, "Alan Ward" wrote:


I prefer "sunny side up" ;-)

On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Chuck Hill 
mailto:ch...@global-village.net>> wrote:

On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, "Pascal Robert" wrote:

It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark 
Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long.

I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude.  We did not own them.  Apple 
offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things 
that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes 
engineers happy and compensates them well.  Hell, I “poached" Miguel first and 
make a run at some of the others.

A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community 
as they did some years ago.  But, really, what is their motivation to do so?  
What have we given them in the last few years?


Chuck

75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing 
anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to 
improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the 
conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of 
being full of stress.

- Mail original -
De: "Ramsey Gurley" mailto:rgur...@smarthealth.com>>
À: "Jürgen Simon" mailto:si...@webtecc.com>>
Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com<mailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com>
Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49
Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?


On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon 
mailto:si...@webtecc.com>> wrote:

Hello,
this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side 
of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. 
I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but 
apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would 
you guys think WO really has?
Kind Regards,
Jürgen


Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a 
limited future.

For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. 
The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they 
did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions 
besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an 
@apple.com<http://apple.com> address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne 
list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside.

Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions 
have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits 
are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old 
frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder 
something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I 
update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”

Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO 
is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing 
department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page??<http://domain.com/page??> 
WO URLs are horrible for SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and 
nested inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as 
you want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... 
who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department 
wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of 
desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one 
is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all 
the WO apps in something else.

Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and 
crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. 
Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor 
slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even 
when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, 
cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare.

Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as r

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Pascal Robert]

From what I learned, the iTunes group is still using WO, but the other groups 
can use whatever they want.

- Mail original -
De: "Gino Pacitti" 
À: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com
Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 16:45:47
Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?

So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? 
Have they left WO completely?


On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert  wrote:

> It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark 
> Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long.
> 
> 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing 
> anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to 
> improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the 
> conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead 
> of being full of stress.
> 
> - Mail original -
> De: "Ramsey Gurley" 
> À: "Jürgen Simon" 
> Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com
> Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49
> Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
> 
> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
>> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
>> 
>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
>> would you guys think WO really has?
>> 
>> Kind Regards,
>> Jürgen
> 
> 
> Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has 
> a limited future. 
> 
> For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 
> 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. 
> I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other 
> solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com 
> address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty 
> tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside.
> 
> Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
> Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of 
> contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve 
> noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but 
> refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality 
> control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my 
> repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”
> 
> Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
> make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
> smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that 
> WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the 
> marketing department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are 
> horrible for SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside 
> another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to 
> go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s 
> going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants 
> minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop 
> apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is 
> going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all 
> the WO apps in something else.
> 
> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
> Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. 
> Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot 
> it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. 
> Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration 
> nightmare.
> 
> Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as 
> rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an 
> experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there 
> isn’t in prime condition and requires lo

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Klaus Berkling]

On Mar 5, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley  wrote:

> [...]

> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks.


I would put some serious time into the tools (WOLips, Rule Modeler) and Wonder. 
My issue is that I need a full time job to pay the bills. My current job 
doesn't involve Wonder so my off-hours efforts turn into half-assed and 
uncommitted (literally and figuratively) results. Anyone else in these shoes?
If the WO community would be able to pay a salary for the up-keep of Wonder I 
would be first in line. Or I need to win the lottery.

Wonder needs a future, otherwise I might be stuck with ASP for a long time. :-)


kib

"We keep moving forward, opening new doors, and doing new things, because we're 
curious and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths."
Walt Disney

Klaus Berkling
www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app 





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Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Alan Ward]

I prefer "sunny side up" ;-)

On Mar 5, 2014, at 2:47 PM, Chuck Hill  wrote:

> On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, "Pascal Robert" wrote:
> 
> It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark 
> Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long.
> 
> I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude.  We did not own them.  Apple 
> offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things 
> that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes 
> engineers happy and compensates them well.  Hell, I “poached" Miguel first 
> and make a run at some of the others.
> 
> A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the 
> community as they did some years ago.  But, really, what is their motivation 
> to do so?  What have we given them in the last few years?
> 
> 
> Chuck
> 
> 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing 
> anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to 
> improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the 
> conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead 
> of being full of stress.
> 
> - Mail original -
> De: "Ramsey Gurley" 
> À: "Jürgen Simon" 
> Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com
> Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49
> Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
> 
> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
> would you guys think WO really has?
> Kind Regards,
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has 
> a limited future.
> 
> For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 
> 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. 
> I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other 
> solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com 
> address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty 
> tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside.
> 
> Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
> Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of 
> contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve 
> noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but 
> refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality 
> control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my 
> repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”
> 
> Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
> make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
> smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that 
> WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the 
> marketing department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are 
> horrible for SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside 
> another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to 
> go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s 
> going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants 
> minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop 
> apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is 
> going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all 
> the WO apps in something else.
> 
> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
> Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. 
> Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot 
> it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. 
> Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration 
> nightmare.
> 

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Chuck Hill]

On 2014-03-05, 1:23 PM, "Pascal Robert" wrote:

It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark 
Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long.

I think “poached” reflects the wrong attitude.  We did not own them.  Apple 
offered them jobs working on some really interesting, high visibility things 
that make a real difference to people in an environment that I assume makes 
engineers happy and compensates them well.  Hell, I “poached" Miguel first and 
make a run at some of the others.

A more valid complaint is that they have not been giving back to the community 
as they did some years ago.  But, really, what is their motivation to do so?  
What have we given them in the last few years?


Chuck

75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing 
anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to 
improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the 
conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of 
being full of stress.

- Mail original -
De: "Ramsey Gurley" mailto:rgur...@smarthealth.com>>
À: "Jürgen Simon" mailto:si...@webtecc.com>>
Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com<mailto:webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com>
Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49
Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?


On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon 
mailto:si...@webtecc.com>> wrote:

Hello,
this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business side 
of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a lot. 
I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, but 
apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future would 
you guys think WO really has?
Kind Regards,
Jürgen


Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a 
limited future.

For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. 
The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they 
did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions 
besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break 
radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s 
what it looks like from the outside.

Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions 
have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits 
are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old 
frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder 
something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I 
update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”

Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO 
is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing 
department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for 
SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table 
of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. 
Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to 
read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info 
on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have 
already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite 
them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in 
something else.

Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and 
crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. 
Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor 
slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even 
when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, 
cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare.

Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare 
as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an 
experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there 
isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably 
built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO 

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Gino Pacitti]

So if these guys are poached by Apple - what technology are they using there? 
Have they left WO completely?


On 5 Mar 2014, at 21:23, Pascal Robert  wrote:

> It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark 
> Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long.
> 
> 75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing 
> anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to 
> improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the 
> conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead 
> of being full of stress.
> 
> - Mail original -
> De: "Ramsey Gurley" 
> À: "Jürgen Simon" 
> Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com
> Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49
> Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?
> 
> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
>> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
>> 
>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
>> would you guys think WO really has?
>> 
>> Kind Regards,
>> Jürgen
> 
> 
> Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has 
> a limited future. 
> 
> For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 
> 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. 
> I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other 
> solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com 
> address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty 
> tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside.
> 
> Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
> Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of 
> contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve 
> noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but 
> refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality 
> control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my 
> repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”
> 
> Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
> make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
> smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that 
> WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the 
> marketing department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are 
> horrible for SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside 
> another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to 
> go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s 
> going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants 
> minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop 
> apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is 
> going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all 
> the WO apps in something else.
> 
> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
> Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. 
> Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot 
> it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. 
> Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration 
> nightmare.
> 
> Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as 
> rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an 
> experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there 
> isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably 
> built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO 
> way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially 
> for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Pascal Robert]

It's not only Mike who was poached by Apple. Kieran, Miguel Arroz, Mark 
Ritchie, Q, Guido, the list is quite long.

75% of the community wants to keep using WO, but not much people are doing 
anything to improve things. It will be my last WOWODC, I'm tired to trying to 
improve the conference while having less and less people coming to the 
conference? It's time that I can care of my health and have some fun instead of 
being full of stress.

- Mail original -
De: "Ramsey Gurley" 
À: "Jürgen Simon" 
Cc: webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com
Envoyé: Mercredi 5 Mars 2014 15:12:49
Objet: Re: WebObjects-Projects?


On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
> 
> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
> would you guys think WO really has?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jürgen


Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a 
limited future. 

For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. 
The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they 
did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions 
besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break 
radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s 
what it looks like from the outside.

Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions 
have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits 
are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old 
frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder 
something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I 
update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”

Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO 
is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing 
department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for 
SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table 
of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. 
Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to 
read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info 
on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have 
already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite 
them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in 
something else.

Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and 
crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. 
Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor 
slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even 
when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, 
cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare.

Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare 
as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an 
experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there 
isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably 
built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO 
way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for 
the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is 
so great! I love WebObjects!!"

This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, 
you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have 
your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, 
you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to 
see a lot of new faces around though.





 ___
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
Webobjects-dev mailing list

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Nilton Lessa]

On 05/03/2014, at 17:42, Ken Anderson  wrote:

> I am still building large WO projects (deployment size, not employment size 
> :O ) and will until I retire :)
+1.

> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
>>> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
>>> 
>>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
>>> would you guys think WO really has?
>>> 
>>> Kind Regards,
>>> Jürgen
>> 
>> 
>> Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO 
>> has a limited future. 
>> 
>> For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 
>> 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. 
>> I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at 
>> other solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an 
>> @apple.com address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems 
>> pretty tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside.
>> 
>> Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
>> Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of 
>> contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve 
>> noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but 
>> refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality 
>> control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my 
>> repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”
>> 
>> Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
>> make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
>> smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that 
>> WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the 
>> marketing department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are 
>> horrible for SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested 
>> inside another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you 
>> want to go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... 
>> who’s going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department 
>> wants minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of 
>> desktop apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No 
>> one is going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to 
>> rewrite all the WO apps in something else.
>> 
>> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
>> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
>> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
>> Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. 
>> Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to 
>> reboot it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need 
>> to know. Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your 
>> administration nightmare.
>> 
>> Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as 
>> rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an 
>> experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there 
>> isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably 
>> built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO 
>> way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially 
>> for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, 
>> this is so great! I love WebObjects!!"
>> 
>> This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a 
>> mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you 
>> have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you 
>> nee

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Ken Anderson]

I am still building large WO projects (deployment size, not employment size :O 
) and will until I retire :)

On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:12 PM, Ramsey Gurley  wrote:

> 
> On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
>> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
>> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
>> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
>> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
>> 
>> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
>> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
>> would you guys think WO really has?
>> 
>> Kind Regards,
>> Jürgen
> 
> 
> Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has 
> a limited future. 
> 
> For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 
> 2008/2009. The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. 
> I seems they did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other 
> solutions besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com 
> address break radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty 
> tragic, but that’s what it looks like from the outside.
> 
> Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
> Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of 
> contributions have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve 
> noticed most commits are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but 
> refactoring of old frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality 
> control has made Wonder something that went from “I can’t wait to update my 
> repo” to “I’m scared if I update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”
> 
> Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
> make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
> smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that 
> WO is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the 
> marketing department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are 
> horrible for SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside 
> another table of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to 
> go. Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s 
> going to read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants 
> minimal info on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop 
> apps have already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is 
> going to rewrite them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all 
> the WO apps in something else.
> 
> Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
> has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell 
> and crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under 
> Mavericks. Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. 
> Monitor slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot 
> it. Even when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. 
> Memory, cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration 
> nightmare.
> 
> Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as 
> rare as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an 
> experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there 
> isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably 
> built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO 
> way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially 
> for the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, 
> this is so great! I love WebObjects!!"
> 
> This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a 
> mac, you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you 
> have your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you 
> need, you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t 
> expect to see a lot of new faces around though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
> Webobjects-dev mailing list  (Webobjects-dev@lists.apple.com)
> Help/Unsubscribe/Update your Subscription:
> https:

Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Ramsey Gurley]

On Mar 5, 2014, at 4:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
> 
> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
> would you guys think WO really has?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jürgen


Having worked with WO for a while now, I think it’s safe for me to say WO has a 
limited future. 

For one, Apple did not open source it when they left it for dead in 2008/2009. 
The “Apple only hardware” license restriction is pretty lame too. I seems they 
did this hoping to kill it. It appears they are looking at other solutions 
besides WO for their own usage. The last time I saw an @apple.com address break 
radio silence, it was on the Cayenne list. It seems pretty tragic, but that’s 
what it looks like from the outside.

Two, Anjo left Wonder. Mike was poached by Apple and has been MIA since.  
Without Anjo to keep people in line, I’ve noticed the quality of contributions 
have declined. Without Mike’s tireless contributions, I’ve noticed most commits 
are not in the form of great useful new frameworks, but refactoring of old 
frameworks. Refactoring combined with loose quality control has made Wonder 
something that went from “I can’t wait to update my repo” to “I’m scared if I 
update my repo, stuff is going to break… again.”

Third, the type of applications WO excels at are no longer in demand. If you 
make an app that requires someone to poke in 42 text fields on their 
smartphone, you are doing it wrong. But that’s exactly the sort of app that WO 
is purpose built to handle. Dynamic URLs are universally hated by the marketing 
department. "Why can’t we just have domain.com/page?? WO URLs are horrible for 
SEO!!”  WO can give you a table of data sorted and nested inside another table 
of data which is also sorted and nested as deep as you want to go. 
Automatically. And it will keep track of all that, but then... who’s going to 
read a table that big on a 5” screen? The design department wants minimal info 
on the page, please. Just the facts ma’am. Those sort of desktop apps have 
already been built. They’re now in maintenance mode. No one is going to rewrite 
them in WO any sooner that someone is going to rewrite all the WO apps in 
something else.

Fourth, the tooling is showing bit rot. Q is the only person left who really 
has a handle on how WOLips works. My copy of rule modeler is buggy as hell and 
crashes 50% of the time I try to launch or save something under Mavericks. 
Installing WO for dev or deployment requires a PhD in WebObjects. Monitor 
slowly becomes less and less responsive until you’re forced to reboot it. Even 
when it works, it doesn’t really monitor everything I need to know. Memory, 
cpu, disk space? Oh, go get Nagios and add to your administration nightmare.

Finally, there’s the learning cliff involved with WO. WO developers are as rare 
as unicorns. Learning WO in depth takes months/years to do, even for an 
experienced Java developer. In a lot of cases, the WO app that is out there 
isn’t in prime condition and requires lots of maintenance. It was probably 
built on an existing legacy database with a schema that goes against the WO 
way. That results a sub-optimal development experience with WO. Especially for 
the uninitiated. Nobody is going to learn it on the job and think “Wow, this is 
so great! I love WebObjects!!"

This is not to say WO is bad. WO is great for what it does. If you have a mac, 
you know WO already, you don’t mind the tools are a little creaky, you have 
your own wonder fork, you are okay with writing whatever frameworks you need, 
you are the dba, and it works for you.. knock yourself out. I don’t expect to 
see a lot of new faces around though.





 ___
Do not post admin requests to the list. They will be ignored.
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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Klaus I. Berkling]

On Mar 5, 2014, at 3:37 AM, Jürgen Simon  wrote:

> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
> would you guys think WO really has?


I doubt that it's just Germany. I think its not a WO problem but rather that 
projects get outsourced/off-shored to dime-a-dozen web developers that don't 
use WO - if the project isn't canceled outright.


kib

"The essence of training is to allow error without consequence."
Orson Scott Card

Klaus Berkling
www.berkling.us | @kiberkli | Buy My iPhone app 





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Re: WebObjects-Projects?

[Christoph Wick]

Hello Jürgen,
hello all,

as long as I'm in the WO business (since 2001), I've never seen anybody using 
WO in big business. It has always been small to medium sized projects. I my 
case 10 to 100 kilo-Euros. "Once upon a time" there must have been big WO 
installations outside Apple - but that was in the pre-2000 era. 

Nevertheless, I'm still using WO as a business. I was mostly successful 
acquiring new WO projects when the client 
- had no inhouse IT department (as soon as there are already inhouse IT people, 
the chance to get WO used in new projects goes to zero),
- had no further requirements (such as using a certain technology or wants to 
use OpenSource),
- was only interested in "getting the job done". 

Thanks to WO/Wonder itself as well as the excellent WO community, I was always 
able to get my customers happy. In functionality, in budget and in time!

So, my personal strategy is to find a client with
a) a problem (that can be solved)
b) money (I had endless discussion with people having a problem and "wishing" 
it to get solved - but no business case at all)

You won't find such clients in "project marketplaces" or something alike. I 
find them - more or less - by accident. But nevertheless I find them.

C.U.CW
-- 

Christoph Wick - Diplom Informatiker, Managing Director
i4innovation GmbH, Professor-Neu-Allee 39, 53225 Bonn, Germany

T +49 2 28 28 62 97 93
M +49 1 51 22 65 78 90
F +49 2 28 28 62 97 99
M c...@i4innovation.de
W www.i4innovation.de
Skype: christoph_wick

Geschäftsführer: Thomas Heep, Christoph Wick
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Bonn | Amtsgericht Bonn HRB 18548 | USt-IdNr.: 
DE276502600

On 05.03.2014, at 12:37, Jürgen Simon  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the business 
> side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in Germany, after the 
> 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects has really been down a 
> lot. I have been looking hi and lo for opportunities to work with WO again, 
> but apart from self-initiated projects there was nothing going on.
> 
> Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there any 
> project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a future 
> would you guys think WO really has?
> 
> Kind Regards,
> Jürgen
> 
> 
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WebObjects-Projects?

[Jürgen Simon]

Hello,

this is not a technical inquiry, more a temperature check on the 
business side of WebObjects. It is my impression that at least in 
Germany, after the 2008/2009 crisis the market for WebObjects-projects 
has really been down a lot. I have been looking hi and lo for 
opportunities to work with WO again, but apart from self-initiated 
projects there was nothing going on.


Is this perception limited to Germany or is it even just me? Are there 
any project marketplaces for WO that I am not aware of? How much of a 
future would you guys think WO really has?


Kind Regards,
Jürgen


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Re: WebObjects projects hosting...

[Timmy]

This just makes way too much sense. It would be nice to at least see  
this happen.


T

On Oct 31, 2007, at 10:09 AM, Francis Labrie wrote:

Couldn't Apple gives space and bandwidth for WOLips/Wonder/etc.  
community projects on ?


Andrus Adamchik wrote:
If it comes to bandwidth, I think we can afford it. I am currently  
paying about $5/month for hosting remote server backups. For 5  
bucks my package gives me 100 GB of disk space and 1.2TB of  
bandwidth (not sure if they actually allow you to use all that; and  
not sure about the transfer speed, as I am using it only to upload  
stuff). I can open another such FTP/WWW account dedicated to WOLips  
if Mike and others think they need it for the download server. Then  
there's always SourceForge... but it doesn't make it easy to post  
nightly's.


Andrus

On Oct 31, 2007, at 5:59 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote:
What about putting that on a .Mac account and let Apple help a  
little bit on that one? I have a Mac mini mainly idling around,  
but it's not my own traffic, so I can't use that one. But I can  
put a package on my .Mac site and we can link to that.


cug


--
Francis Labrie
Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville, Québec, Canada

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WebObjects projects hosting...

[Francis Labrie]

Couldn't Apple gives space and bandwidth for WOLips/Wonder/etc.  
community projects on ?


Andrus Adamchik wrote:
If it comes to bandwidth, I think we can afford it. I am currently  
paying about $5/month for hosting remote server backups. For 5  
bucks my package gives me 100 GB of disk space and 1.2TB of  
bandwidth (not sure if they actually allow you to use all that; and  
not sure about the transfer speed, as I am using it only to upload  
stuff). I can open another such FTP/WWW account dedicated to WOLips  
if Mike and others think they need it for the download server. Then  
there's always SourceForge... but it doesn't make it easy to post  
nightly's.


Andrus

On Oct 31, 2007, at 5:59 PM, Guido Neitzer wrote:
What about putting that on a .Mac account and let Apple help a  
little bit on that one? I have a Mac mini mainly idling around,  
but it's not my own traffic, so I can't use that one. But I can  
put a package on my .Mac site and we can link to that.


cug


--
Francis Labrie
Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville, Québec, Canada

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