Re: [whatwg] Background Geolocation for Progressive Web-Apps
Le 2 déc. 2016 à 08:53, Richard Maher a écrit : > The main goal of background geolocation reporting Previous related threads: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.geolocation/D5UXf-N3JfU https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2016Feb/0016.html https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2016Feb/0017.html https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-geolocation/2016Feb/0010.html https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mozilla.dev.geolocation/UXkd3Tz1GPc -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] New tag
Le 2 avr. 2016 à 04:04, Daniel Murphy a écrit : > we wouldn't want to waste our expensive > smell synthesis technology on the likes of webcrawlers and other robots who > wouldn't benefit. Yup. User agent sniffing definitely stinks. -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Icon mask and theme color
Followup on this. Le 16 juin 2015 à 02:33, Edward O'Connor a écrit : > That is why we recommend authors put rel=icon mask> first—so that the existing tie-breaking behavior results > in the legacy favicon being chosen. Nicolas Hoizey spotted on Apple forums and added a comment on the bug > The markup changed in Developer Seed 3 and Public Beta 1 > to simplify and have better backwards compatibility. > Use the following markup instead: > [1]: https://forums.developer.apple.com/thread/4615 [2]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1174589#c7 -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Icon mask and theme color
Tab, (summary: let's put the information inside the SVG file, more below) Le 18 juin 2015 à 08:41, Tab Atkins Jr. a écrit : > better than color averaging. Averaging seems like it would > rarely produce a reasonable color in any multi-color icon, And we will certainly create rage into Marketing/Communications departments. > Dominant/first color would at least give you one of the brand colors. Better, not necessary the best. Because of the following reasons: 1. these icons are specific to the "mask" system. 2. SVG format is mandatory [1] Why not * giving more power to the designers, * respecting the people in charge of branding, * and reducing the source of confusions (people managing the markup != people designing icons) by including **inside the SVG** the color requirements. http://www.w3.org/ns/@@@something@@";> (better syntax, naming, unicorns are welcome, but that's not currently the point) [1]: https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/mac/releasenotes/General/WhatsNewInSafari/Articles/Safari_9.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40014305-CH9-SW20 -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] A mask="" advisory flag for
Nils, Le 16 juin 2015 à 10:03, Nils Dagsson Moskopp a écrit : > Edward O'Connor writes: >> These images can be tinted to better fit in with the site's theme. > > Please tell me where the requirement for SVG favicons with 100% black > paths comes from. I do not understand why an SVG favicon cannot have > proper SVG colors so there are no interoperability issues with it. Ed, maybe, replied already I believed in the sentence above. The mask icon is giving just a shape. So that the chosen theme of the phone can customized the color to its own choice. Be imposed by the brand of the operator, or I guess someone hacking its theme to have its own. see for example http://stackoverflow.com/questions/9711481/icon-color-on-different-themes I guess things like "Android theme", "icon sets", etc. would give some answers. https://dribbble.com/search?q=+icon+sets+monochrome It's a way for a site to provide a generic shaped icon but that will adjust its colors depending on the theme. -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Apple's new not-quite-favicon syntax causing problems in other browsers; needs standardization?
Roc, Daniel, Le 15 juin 2015 à 11:00, Robert O'Callahan a écrit : > Let's do this now. We can't wait for Apple and/or Web sites to get their > act together. Created https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1174589 -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Supporting feature tests of untestable features
Kyle, Let's see. Le 8 avr. 2015 à 21:59, Kyle Simpson a écrit : > as soon as a bug is around long enough and in enough browsers and enough > people are working around that bug, it becomes a permanent "feature" of the > web. Yes this is a feature. It's part of the platform, even if not perfect, but you already know that. > The point is not whether this clipboard API has bugs or that canvas API > doesn't or whatever. The initial point you made was "please add an api to say it's buggy". What I understood. Let's find your own words: Can we add something like a "feature test API" (whatever it's called) where certain "hard" cases can be exposed as tests in some way? I still think it's a mistake, because of the Web Compat horrors I see be UA sniffing or other things. But maybe I entirely misunderstood what you were saying because the point you seem to be making seems slightly different: > The point I'm making is there will always be features the browsers implement > that won't have a nice clean API namespace or property to check for. If an implemented feature is not __currently__ testable, maybe we should just make it testable to a level of granularity which is useful for Web devs, based on what we see in the wild. Example testing if a range of unicode characters is displayable: https://github.com/webcompat/webcompat.com/issues/604#issuecomment-90284059 Basically right now the current technique is to use canvas for rendering the character. see https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/blob/master/feature-detects/emoji.js and http://stimulus.hk/demos/testFont.html Here I would love to have a: String.fromCharCode(0x1F4A9).rendered() true or false (or whatever makes sense) The risk I see with the initial proposal is that we had another level of complexity instead of just making it testable. I may have missed what you wanted. -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Supporting feature tests of untestable features
Le 2 avr. 2015 à 17:36, Simon Pieters a écrit : > On Wed, 01 Apr 2015 06:57:43 +0200, Kyle Simpson wrote: >> There are features being added to the DOM/web platform, or at least under >> consideration, that do not have reasonable feature tests obvious/practical >> in their design. > > I think we should not design a new API to test for features that should > already be testable but aren't because of browser bugs. Agreed with what Simon is saying. All these are really bugs in detectability and implementations of the features. https://github.com/Modernizr/Modernizr/wiki/Undetectables What we could do is try to increase the granularity of the API/tests if the API is too shallow for detecting what is useful. Adding another meta layer of testing makes the Web Compatibility story even harder. As usual, we look at the good side of the story as in it will help us make better site, but what I'm seeing often is more on the side of What is the hook that will help us to say 'Not Supported' because our project manager told us browser not below version blah. (Based on sad true story. Your perpetual blockbuster) -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Page refresh interface
Andrea, Simon, > Le 25 mars 2015 à 23:08, Andrea Rendine a > écrit : >> I think Refresh as an HTTP header is not specified anywhere, so per spec >> it shouldn't work. However I think browsers all support it, so it would be >> good to specify it. > Indeed. It was Netscape-specific but it's widespread now (that's why we > have a "surrogate"). I was not so sure about the interest of documenting it, but after [digging into it][1]. There seems to be many Web Compatibility hacks around it. Do we have stats on how frequent the `Refresh:` header is on the Web? HTTP Archive maybe? [1]: http://www.otsukare.info/2015/03/26/refresh-http-header -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Persistent and temporary storage
Hi Timo, Le 18 mars 2015 à 09:38, Krinkle a écrit : > 2. HTTP 304 hits are not free. > > We found that loading JS/CSS from LocalStorage was faster than hitting a HTTP > 304. Making enough difference to justify this change. Did you publish your tests and the results somewhere across browsers and devices? This is quite interesting. Thanks. -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] HTTP status code from JavaScript
Michael, A praise for more than HTTP status code. Le 23 mai 2014 à 12:36, Michael Heuberger a écrit : > There is a need to obtain the HTTP status code for the page itself from > JavaScript: > https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=999886 We could do better. HTTP Code is yet another very specific bit of information. A question which is very often asked is how to access the HTTP headers from JavaScript without having to go through a round trip of XMLHttpRequest. http://stackoverflow.com/questions/220231/accessing-the-web-pages-http-headers-in-javascript I wish indeed that in the DOM there would be a way to access a JSON object with the full HTTP response headers and status line included. One of the reasons to record the full response instead of having to create an additional request is that some headers are time sensitive and some servers are very sensitive to the type of requests made. For example, some servers will (wrongly) send a different response for headers and/or status line if the HTTP request is made with a GET or a HEAD. -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] for year input
Le 19 févr. 2014 à 08:17, Ian Hickson a écrit : > It doesn't help that much for four-digit numbers, and > years beyond four digits often _do_ have commas, e.g.: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_10,000_problem In English. The same page you used: 西暦1年問題 Problema del año 1 Y10K 1년 문제 Проблема 1 года Проблема 1 року 1年问题 For example, the comma in France is used for "10,5" as in 10.5 (21/2). And the space is used as a separator 11 222 333,44 A good source for different conventions depending on the locales. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%C3%A9dia:Conventions_concernant_les_nombres http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Dates_and_numbers http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Schreibweise_von_Zahlen http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E6%A0%BC%E5%BC%8F%E6%89%8B%E5%86%8C/%E6%97%A5%E6%9C%9F%E5%92%8C%E6%95%B0%E5%AD%97 etc. I wonder if it would not be more flexible to have a `format` attribute. (or any other formatting syntax) -- Karl Dubost 🐄 http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Request: Implementing a Geo Location URI Scheme
Rodrigo, Rodrigo Polo [2013-06-10T15:49]: > I know that this group can have a direct impact on most of the well known > web browsers on the desktop and mobile arena, Not that much. :) I would recommend you as Julian and Hixie said. 1. Create a test case 2. Create a Web page with your testing results 3. Report on each browser individual issue trackers the bug. You will help the community by doing this. Thanks. -- Karl Dubost http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] Microdata status
Le 30 mai 2013 à 12:39, Michael[tm] Smith a écrit : > Alex or somebody else writes up an alternative API proposal they can be > happier with, it seems unlikely they're going to be re-implementing > anything based on the current Microdata API spec. In the process, if it ever happens, I would love to see something more or less common in between RDFaLite, data-* and microdata. When I explored [1] different ways of expressing the same information, the JS code to access the data is quite different and makes it not very user friendly in the end. [1]: http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/geolocation-html-api/ -- Karl Dubost http://www.la-grange.net/karl/
Re: [whatwg] API for unique identification of devices (mobile/tablet/pc)
Le 14 déc. 2012 à 17:51, Stan a écrit : > If most of the users do this right now, it does not mean they are happy with > this, it doesn't mean they are unhappy about it. Or more exactly that a fraction of them can even look for such a feature. > Second, user accounts are based on e-mails as a rule, which is not unique at > all, every user can have multiple e-mails and multiple registrations. which is a feature, not a bug. Professional account, personal account, cooking-club account, etc. > Many web-services struggle against users' reputation spoofing made via such > fake accounts. That's a different issue. > Multiple browser profiles on the same device do not matter, because the same > device ID will be returned. In some countries, in Asia and Africa, a single device can be used by multiple people. Internet cafes are another use cases. And shiny tablets can be also for one family. Basically device != user != web service > The main point, if device ID could be available it would provide more great > possibilities for users and web-services. And it would create big challenges in usability and privacy. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] acronym - Proposal for re-instating
Le 15 oct. 2012 à 11:40, Willabee Wombat a écrit : > the word is spoken. > the abbreviation is spelt out, letter by letter. […] > - Screen readers may make use of them. simple definition. An issue though, (automatic) translation. for example UN would have to become in French once translated. ONU -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard
Le 24 sept. 2012 à 12:08, Jukka K. Korpela a écrit : > It also means that the only immediately available source information for a > quotation will be an ISBN in URL format. So, for example, working offline, > you won't see even the title and the author. Would the quotation even satisfy > the legal requirements for quotations? unrelated and orthogonal. We are not talking about bibliographical reference model, which would by useful by its own. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] New URL Standard
Le 21 sept. 2012 à 17:16, Anne van Kesteren a écrit : > I took a crack at defining URLs: http://url.spec.whatwg.org/ Very cool. On cite attributes, I'm using urn:isbn: J'aime la liberté. J'aime être responsable de mes actes. J'aime comprendre ce que je fais… Et, cependant, je donne mon accord à ce marché bizarre. Which I can use and parse with an extension in Opera [1] which convert it into a link to the Open Library. In the future I could give accessibilities to different services, and the user could choose its own reference system. In this case. http://openlibrary.org/books/OL8913264M/Djinn All of that, it would be cool to be able to grab the relevant part of the URI without having to regex the string return by the cite attribute. PS: and Yes I can live with not being there if you say no ;) [1]: https://addons.opera.com/fr/extensions/details/quotelink/?display=en -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Wasn't there going to be a strict spec?
Le 10 août 2012 à 20:19, Tab Atkins Jr. a écrit : > I don't wish to spend the time to dig up the studies showing that 95% or so > of XML served as text/html is invalid XML That doesn't really makes sense, but I guess what Tab meant is People attempting to write documents * with XML syntax rules (such as for example XHTML 1.0), * and serving it as text/html. Often, these documents are NOT well-formed, even before being valid, and even-less conformant. On top of that you can add a layer of madness with user-agent sniffing. I have documented one we had in Opera and forced us to recover automatically. *unfortunately*. It also makes the task of creating a survey very hard because… well you get different markup, redirections, etc. aka results because of the user agent sniffing. See [Wrong To Be Right - application/xhtml+xml][1] [1]: http://my.opera.com/karlcow/blog/2011/03/03/wrong-to-be-right-with-xhtml For stats, there are two big surveys which have been made in the past (maybe it is what Tab refers to) https://developers.google.com/webmasters/state-of-the-web/ http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/mama/ PS: Erik, you can also rely on XHTML5. Aka serving your document as application/xhtml+xml, expect issues with browser market shares in some countries. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Administrivia: Update on the relationship between the WHATWG HTML living standard and the W3C HTML5 specification
Le 25 juil. 2012 à 10:04, David Bruant a écrit : >> W3C forgot that. > Who did? I mean, the actual people. Nobody forgot. The discussions are not about WHATWG vs W3C. This is nonsense. There W3C is not a monolithic bloc either. Most of the browser engineers working on whatwg lists, IRC channels, are also part of the W3C groups. There is productive work done at different places. There are issues with _some_ groups. One group which has been difficult lately in terms of agreeing on how to work is the W3C HTML WG. (I'm not taking side). The W3C has an history of broader public and diversity in terms of opinions, ideas on Web architecture, etc. which indeed makes the consensus more difficult to reach, hence the (sometimes too) heavy process (when engineers just want to have fun solving concrete use cases). Let's not forget that the W3C Web Apps WG is working quite well. But it is a smaller group with more likely minded people. http://www.w3.org/2008/webapps/ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/ List of documents being worked on http://www.w3.org/TR/tr-groups-all#tr_Web_Applications_Working_Group -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Responsive images using http headers
Le 25 juin 2012 à 13:34, Oscar Otero a écrit :
> For example, for an image 100% width in a div of 400px, the browser would
> send a header indicating it need a 400px width image. This solution is also
> valid for css images (backgrounds, for example) and even for video. The
> values to send could be the same of css values (width, min-width, max-width,
> height, min-height, max-height), for example:
>
> Content-Size: width:400px, min-height: 300px;
There has been a similar proposal for a long time but which has never really
been implemented. It was called "Transparent Content Negotiation" [1] because
it was explicitly listing the alternate available resources for a specific URI.
I was wondering about the possibility of negotiating that way too. [2].
Alternates: {"bigpussycat" {size 1Mo} {dpi 300}},
{"pussycat" {size 100ko} {dpi 72}},
{"tinypussycat" {size 10ko} {dpi 72}
or could be something else for keywords and relevant information. This solution
doesn't really work with the following constraints.
* The client (and owner of the client) knows best about its capabilities and
its context.
* The server knows about the available resources.
* Avoid HTTP Round Trips to discover what are the available resources (HTTP
HEAD, then GET)
You could imagine a system where the "parent" resource is the one containing
the information about all alternate children. But that would make quite a lot
of HTTP headers. No perfect solution.
[1]: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2295
[2]:
http://my.opera.com/karlcow/blog/2011/12/08/responsive-images-and-transparent-content-negotiation-in-http
--
Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/
Developer Relations, Opera Software
[whatwg] Patterns of well-known quotes sites
I was wondering what were the patterns of quotes Web sites. Searching for quotes in DuckDuckGo and taking them one by one. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=quotes Not exhaustive, but done a few. It is… :) well see by yourself. # The Quotations page http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/34200.html ## Pattern: [TXT] [AUTHORNAME] [AUTHORQUALIFICATION] ([BIRTHDATE] - [DEATHDATE]) # Brainy Quote http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/topics/topic_age.html ## Pattern: [TXT] [AUTHORNAME] … then next quote # QuoteLand http://www.quoteland.com/ ## Pattern (awful markup, had to cleanup a bit to see the pattern) See http://www.quoteland.com/rate/Woody-Allen-Quotes/3494/ for the real source. [AUTHORNAME] View all quotes from this author [TXT] -[AUTHORNAME] # Wisdom Quotes http://www.wisdomquotes.com/ ## Pattern http://www.wisdomquotes.com/quote/henry-david-thoreau-56.html [AUTHORNAME] Quote [TXT] - [AUTHORNAME] # All GreatQuotes http://www.allgreatquotes.com/ ## Pattern [TXT] [AUTHORNAME] [QUOTESOURCETITLE]. # ThinkExist http://en.thinkexist.com/ ## Pattern “[TXT]” [AUTHORNAME] quotes ([AUTHORQUALIFICATION] [BIRTHDATE]-[DEATHDATE]) # Great Quotes http://www.great-quotes.com/quote/387 ## Pattern "[TXT]" [AUTHORNAME] # Quote Garden http://quotegarden.com/ ## Pattern [TXT] ~[AUTHORNAME] # Goodreads http://www.goodreads.com/quotes ## Pattern “[TXT]” ― [AUTHORNAME], [QUOTESOURCETITLE] # Quotes.net http://www.quotes.net/quote/38756 ## Pattern (cleaned up a lot the markup) [AUTHORNAME] Quotes Famous [AUTHORNAME] Quotations [AUTHORQUALIFICATION] ([BIRTHDATE]-[DEATHDATE]) "[TXT]" # WikiQuotes https://en.wikiquote.org/ ## Pattern Example Page T.S. Eliot https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/T._S._Eliot [TXT] "", [SOURCEQUALIFICATION] [QUOTESOURCETITLE] ([SOURCEDATE]) # Poesie.webnet.fr http://poesie.webnet.fr/ well known French poets Web site ## Pattern: [AUTHORNAME] ([BIRTHDATE]-[DEATHDATE]) [POEMTITLE] [TXT] # Quote Evene http://www.evene.fr/citations Quotes in French ## Pattern: [TXT] de [AUTHORNAME] [QUOTESOURCETITLE] -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] should we add beforeload/afterload events to the web platform?
Le 17 janv. 2012 à 19:51, Boris Zbarsky a écrit : > On 1/17/12 7:37 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. wrote: >> SPDY push allows the server to send down additional resources along >> with the main resource […] > Ah, ok. Yeah, there's obviously no way the client can prevent that, nor > should it try. "no way the client can prevent that" It might seem unfortunate. "should it try" maybe. It seems to me that somehow it is partially breaking something along privacy/security, etc. but I may be missing something. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] should we add beforeload/afterload events to the web platform?
Le 17 janv. 2012 à 19:37, Tab Atkins Jr. a écrit : > SPDY push allows the server to send down additional resources along > with the main resource, before the client actually requests them. When you say "additional resources". Is that "from the same domain"? -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Proposal: Exclude robots on a per-link basis
Le 26 nov. 2011 à 07:20, Markus Ernst a écrit : > Viewing the logs of applications I wrote, I noticed that a considerable > number of requests are from robots following links of types such as "Add to > shopping cart" or "Remember this item" - links that typically point to the > same page they are clicked on, with some GET variable that triggers an action > on the server. http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/whenToUseGet.html http://blog.whatfettle.com/2005/10/31/is-it-safe/ -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] XHR Level 2: Accurate Speed Measurement
Le 23 nov. 2011 à 10:14, Rodger Combs a écrit : > XHR currently provides no reliable method of determining the actual upload or > download speed of a transfer. There's a lot of issues to be able to do something like this. 1. "reliable". The network is not reliable is the first issue. All data you would get would be an estimate. 2. The network speed is usually not linear. # XHR.timeRemaining = estimated time left in ms Let's assume, we got the right content-length header. The time remaining is a function of the download pattern which has already happened. An Integral to recalculate. Maybe a linear approximation is enough, not sure. # XHR.completionTime = a Date object representing the estimated completion time date.now() + XHR.timeRemaining is not ok? # XHR.transferRate = upload/download speed, measured in Kbps, as an integer. So you are saying the current transferRate or the integral of the past transferRate from the beginning? -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] add html-attribute for "responsive images"
Ashley, Anselm, Le 6 sept. 2011 à 08:36, Ashley Sheridan a écrit : > Yes, but the point is, the alternative images you may want to display for > visitors on a smaller screen/resolution could be completely different from > the original image (cropped shot not showing all the detail, etc). Yes already happening with background images with not text alt at all. So let's say it is progress. Le 6 sept. 2011 à 09:07, Anselm Hannemann - Novolo Designagentur a écrit : > by the way, how should we work with your solution, Karl, and a CMS or CSS > files from a static domain? Is no one building a dynamic site? could you clarify? -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] add html-attribute for "responsive images"
Le 5 sept. 2011 à 15:07, Anselm Hannemann - Novolo Designagentur a écrit : > Why should we use inline-styles once again? Why should we load content images > with CSS? What about accessibility? Where to add alt-attribute / title / ARIA > etc.? Not exactly what is happening. There is a URI with an image without a javascript and/or CSS activated. The CSS changes the image dynamically depending on the user experience context controlled by mediaqueries. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] add html-attribute for "responsive images"
Anselm,
(setting reply-to on www-style)
Seen this today, to remind people that it is not just
something up in the air. People need it.
http://www.webmonkey.com/2011/08/speed-up-your-responsive-designs-with-adaptive-images/
I wonder if it could be handled by CSS in fact.
I guess Anselm, you could ask there.
On the www-style mailing-list, Charles proposed [1]
content: url(img.jpg) replaced;
I'm not sure I fully understand the proposal
but we can imagine something that could fit nicely
with the CSS Generated Content Module Level 3 [2]
http://example.org/foo"; alt="wiizz"/>
and then the CSS
@media screen and (min-width:550px) and (max-width:960px) {
img.responsive {
url(http://example.org/foobis) replaced;}
}
@media screen and (min-width:240px) and (max-width:549px) {
img.responsive {
url(http://example.org/footer) replaced;}
}
[1]: http://www.w3.org/mid/4e5d4a46.7000...@jumis.com
[2]: http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-content/#replacedContent
--
Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/
Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] add html-attribute for "responsive images"
Le 30 août 2011 à 10:51, Anne van Kesteren a écrit : > On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 16:31:59 +0200, Karl Dubost wrote: >> * It is in fact an issue for being able to make the website responsive on >> Mobile devices in low banwidth. > > The mobile devices are the ones with the high-resolution displays. And as I explained elsewhere it is not a question of high/low-resolution only, but about interaction contexts. Different images for different surface sizes. Desktop: Show a full photo of Anne van Kesteren riding on a plane 1024*250 px Tablet: Show the photo a closer shot of the plane (cowboy frame) 400*150 px Mobile: Show a portrait of Anne with his leather pilot helmet 100x100 px -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] add html-attribute for "responsive images"
Anne, Le 30 août 2011 à 10:21, Anne van Kesteren a écrit : > It's too much complexity for a niche problem. It is not a niche problem. * It is in fact an issue for being able to make the website responsive on Mobile devices in low banwidth. * It has also the impact that you want to send different type of images for different types of screen resolutions a full fledged logo or a logo icon depending on the size of the screen. It is easy to do right now with background images, but not at all for images in element. There was a thread about this recently in May 2011. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011May/thread.html#msg386 If you want example of Web sites doing responsive design http://mediaqueri.es/ -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Terminology: managed vs. manual transactions
Le 30 août 2011 à 02:39, Anne van Kesteren a écrit : > Or "user agent transaction" and "author transaction". (XMLHttpRequest e.g. > uses author request headers.) In version UndoManager and DOM Transaction Proposal Working Draft — 9 August 2011 Suggestion: A managed transaction is a transaction where DOM changes is tracked by the user agent and the logic to unapply or reapply the transaction is implicitly created by the user agent. -> "user agent transaction" A manual transaction is a transaction where the logic to apply, unapply, or reapply the transaction is explicitly defined by an application. /by an application/by a(n author) script/ -> "(author) script transaction" ps: I would not put author personally. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Add "naturalOrientation" property to
Le 26 août 2011 à 16:49, Tab Atkins Jr. a écrit : > If Flickr uses this CSS property, and does so > in different ways in the two places, that's just a Flickr bug. nope Flickr offers tools to process images. Flickr offers hosting of images. People using the hosting do not necessary use Flickr CSS and Flickr markup. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Add "naturalOrientation" property to
Le 26 août 2011 à 11:37, Tab Atkins Jr. a écrit : > The element should expose a readonly "naturalOrientation" > property that returns the EXIF orientation of the image (an integer > 1-8), or 1 if the image has no EXIF orientation metadata or it is > corrupted or the image type doesn't expose EXIF data at all. Maybe an issue I can see is that people who are working on the image in a certain orientation and other people loading this image from elsewhere. (Think Flickr images for example). 1. The person makes the edit on Flickr with a UI where the image is rotated by the browser. 2. A person browse flickr, find an image (still rotated), get the link and insert it in a blog post. The image is not anymore rotated. Why not having a full EXIF API giving access to more date and helping to fix the dates, the location, etc. The same way you do with desktop tools? -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] The blockquote element spec vs common quoting practices
Le 15 juil. 2011 à 10:50, Jukka K. Korpela a écrit :
> Should it? Even when the book has no URL? If you expect urn:isbn:… to work
> anytime soon in any significant browser, you’re very optimistic.
in QuoteLink, I do a trick, eventually I should enable the provider of your
choice.
But basically
if (cite.startsWith("urn:isbn:")) {
isbn = cite.substring(9).replace(/\-/g, "");
cite = "http://openlibrary.org/isbn/"; + isbn;
}
You could replace the openlibrary provider, by wikipedia, olcl, etc.
If we had a good model for describing authors, title, etc, we could even have a
pre-populated form, giving the information for things which are not yet
existent in Open Library. The first persons clicking on the link would have the
opportunity to add the book.
[1]: https://github.com/karlcow/QuoteLink
[2]: https://addons.opera.com/addons/extensions/details/quotelink/
--
Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/
Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] a rel=attachment
Le 14 juil. 2011 à 14:45, Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) a écrit : > would indicate that the browser > should treat this link as if the response came with a content-disposition: > attachment header, and offer to download/save the file for the user. A random thought just occured to me (maybe dumb) But is it a relation qualifier or in fact a target? In http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/browsers.html#valid-browsing-context-name-or-keyword A valid browsing context name or keyword is any string that is either a valid browsing context name or that is an ASCII case-insensitive match for one of: _blank, _self, _parent, or _top. what about adding Save a Tree, Eat a beaver -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] The blockquote element spec vs common quoting practices
Le 14 juil. 2011 à 16:48, Tantek Çelik a écrit : > cite="" attribute (makes me think that the non-visible-effect-URL > attributes on elements Yup. :) and there are ways to improve what the browser doesn't do :) (though I really think the browser should) I made a prototype for this https://github.com/karlcow/QuoteLink https://addons.opera.com/addons/extensions/details/quotelink/ any suggestions for improving are welcome. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] The blockquote element spec vs common quoting practices
Le 14 juil. 2011 à 14:59, Kevin Marks a écrit : > If I was writing a detector for this pattern, followed by a colon > and would do it pretty reliably... yup unfortunately there are also many cases where you have more names in an introducing paragraph. It is happening when I'm writing, and the issue is then to tie the right person with the right blockquote/q I like the pattern id/for pattern of forms. We could imagine Sir John Typo has written plenty of a wonderful thing in Amazing title very similar to those in Susan Spellchecker's writings […] compare to Amazing title -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] a rel=attachment
Le 14 juil. 2011 à 14:45, Ian Fette (イアンフェッティ) a écrit : > Many websites wish to offer a file for download, even though it could > potentially be viewed inline (take images, PDFs, or word documents as an > example). Which current websites? > it seems like adding a "rel" attribute to the > tag would be a straightforward, minimally invasive way to address this use > case. would indicate that the browser > should treat this link as if the response came with a content-disposition: > attachment header, and offer to download/save the file for the user. Are you then proposing to reverse the contextual click on the link to give the option, "view in the browser". All browsers have currently implemented "save this link as"? It may please some users. As a user, I will place this in the category of super annoying features. It then means I would need a preference in the browser to disable it. Then it is at least 3 modifications to implement it. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] The blockquote element spec vs common quoting practices
Le 8 juil. 2011 à 07:20, Jeremy Keith a écrit : > 1) Oli has shown the real-world use cases for attribution *within* > blockquotes. using that for years (almost every day), an example http://www.la-grange.net/2011/06/05/fruit Sur un pétale de lotus, j'écrivis ces quelques vers : « Même si l'on vient me chercher Comment, abandonnant la rosée De pareil lotus, Retournerai-je Dans le monde changeant et frivole ? » et j'envoyais ce pétale. Shonagon, Sei, Notes de chevet, p.64, Unesco, NRF, 1966. mentioned here http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/2005Jun/0201 My favorite issue being when there is a mix of cite in the prose and blockquotes, there is no mechanism to associate the right cite with the right blockquote and this is happening often when you write about things referring to different sources. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2006Dec/0016 -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] AppCache-related e-mails
Le 29 juin 2011 à 05:27, Felix Halim a écrit : > Suppose the content of the main page change very often (like news site). > In this case, you don't want to cache the main page since the users > want to see the latest main page, not the cached ones when they open > the main page later. Did you also check ESI? http://www.w3.org/TR/esi-lang For example in http://symfony.com/doc/2.0/book/http_cache.html#edge-side-includes -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] AppCache-related e-mails
Felix, Le 29 juin 2011 à 05:27, Felix Halim a écrit : > Suppose the content of the main page change very often (like news site). > In this case, you don't want to cache the main page since the users > want to see the latest main page, not the cached ones when they open > the main page later. Is there a web site which exhibits exactly the issue you are mentioning. Or could you set up a mini Web site exhibiting the issue. I have read the full thread, and I still do not understand what you are trying to solve. HTTP cache is about setting user interactions. There is no good values, just the values you decide that would make sense. HTTP Cache can already handle a lot of cases (offline/online) without even using AppCache, specifically when it is only content. -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
[whatwg] geolocation constraints Re: Proposal for a web application descriptor
Le 4 mai 2011 à 23:13, Charles McCathieNevile a écrit : > given something as simple as twitter's geolocation request I *sometimes* > allow it to know where I am and sometimes don't. Geolocation is something really interesting in terms of UI, technology and social impacts. We can deal with many levels of opacity [1]. I'm reacting to the "as simple as twitter's geolocation request" # Full Privacy aware geolocation systems (only you know) * paper map, * downloaded digital map (ex: OffMaps based on Openstreetmap) * street signs, * GPS (the device computes your position from the satellite signals) * etc. # Systems with disclosure, broadcasting (someone else know) * asking someone * cell towers * IP * address form There are needs, in some circumstances, to * give a different location than the real ones * give an area more than a point (I'm in this city or in this square, not necessary centered) * not give any locations at all * record geolocation but disclose it later (I was in this area 2 days ago) One of the biggest issues I have with online geolocation providers is that your "online signature" (cookies, Fingerprint, IP) helps to collapse the geolocation information of different information contexts with little control on that. To be clearer, imagine the following: For this site, I authorize the geolocation with this provider but when accessing this other site, I want to use a different provider, and this other I want to use a local provider that I created myself by collecting wifi references. (sorry for the slightly out of topic, but I find it less simpler than my old paper maps currently ;) ) -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] html5 designers
Gustavo, Le 21 mars 2011 à 13:33, Gustavo Duenas a écrit : > Does anyone knows a good email list for html5 designers, I'm rather lost > here, this is for programmers. The oldest of alls http://www.webdesign-l.com/ -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] as a dedicated tag
Le 23 févr. 2011 à 17:03, Martin Stender a écrit : > I've been searching the archives for some discussions about the need for a > dedicated banner-tag, but found only some WAI-related discussions about using > the 'role'-attribute for this. banner tag proposed by Daniel Glazman? at the time of HTML 3.0 - Attributes CLASS = names ID = id LANG = cdata There has been a lot of discussions around this element, I let you dig in the archives For example, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-html/1997Aug/0241.html More at http://www.google.com/search?q=banner+html3.0+site%3Alists.w3.org -- Karl Dubost - http://dev.opera.com/ Developer Relations & Tools, Opera Software
Re: [whatwg] Creative Commons Rights Expression Language
Le 29 août 2008 à 23:04, Henri Sivonen a écrit : Also, having more metadata leads to UI clutter and data entry fatigue that alienates users. In the past, I worked on a content repository project that failed because (among other things) the content upload UI asked for an insane amount (a couple of screenfuls back then; probably a screenful today) of metadata when it didn't occur to system specifiers to invest in full text search. More metadata isn't better. Instead, systems should ask for the least amount of metadata that can possibly work (when the metadata must be entered by humans as opposed to being captured by machines like EXIF data). See also http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/08/the-digital-stakhanovite hehe. This was a-good-try-but-mischaracterization-from-the-ministry-of- truth to associate this article with the rants on metadata :) Let's clarify. What I explain in the article is not the volume of metadata, but the volume of items and the context of usage. 1. Extract anything you can from the data itself (exif, iptc, xmp, modifications, date) 2. Give a possibility in the UI to modify or add data. In a business environment, you might have to give metadata about a work. I do it in my every day job. I give titles to my emails, I put comments in my cvs commits, etc. etc. These are all constraints. Not adding the data would still work technically. For my own personal photo, I don't (want/have) time to put plenty of metadata. And that's fine. I do though bulk metadata at a regular pace, for location (ex: all these selected photos have been taken in Taiwan with the help of GUI tools. Yes tools save my life). Having a UI cluttered with fields to enter is not a failure of metadata, it is a failure of the project in the social and business constraints of the project. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] RDFa Problem Statement (was: Creative Commons Rights Expression Language)
Le 26 août 2008 à 16:04, Kristof Zelechovski a écrit : Web browsers are (hopefully) designed so that they run in every culture. If you define a custom vocabulary without considering its ability to describe phenomena of other cultures and try to impose it worldwide, you do more harm than good to the representatives of those cultures. The Web could have been designed in a Web of a huge central database of hypertext links. When the Web has been created it was mostly what hypertext solutions were proposing. Having the possibility to rely on domain name system to create URLs has been the major shift in conceiving a distributed hypertext system. People could create independently without coordination their own Web site, put it online. Then some people could link to these Web sites from their own pages if they happen to know it. A lot of craps have been put out there, a lot of good Web sites, a lot of duplicates too. In the end, the network effects, the social aspects of connecting has given places of references, has stabilized for a time some Web sites. Some have disappeared. There are broken links everywhere, but the net effect is… the Web. not that bad, no? RDFa (and RDF effort in general) proposes exactly the same thing. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Creative Commons Rights Expression Language
Le 22 août 2008 à 16:50, Henri Sivonen a écrit : At least in the case of New York, the settlers had the good sense to choose a short disambiguating prefix instead of thinking they were off in a different default namespace like Texas and free to reuse local names causing problems with global map search usability later. You should know better http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_(disambiguation) -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Creative Commons Rights Expression Language
Le 21 août 2008 à 07:22, Bonner, Matt a écrit : I see that the Creative Commons has proposed additions to HTML to support licenses (ccREL): http://www.w3.org/Submission/2008/SUBM-ccREL-20080501/ And as a practical implementation of it. Click at the logo at the bottom, and it returns the license with parsed information from the initial page. http://joi.ito.com/weblog/2008/08/06/board-report-fr.html#cc There is also an CC License Validator. (in maintenance as of the time of this email) http://validator.creativecommons.org/ -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Thoughts on HTML 5
Le 14 mai 2008 à 07:09, Ian Hickson a écrit : That's probably the best suggestion so far, but I'm still not convinced it's really much better than . I think it has at least as many other interpretations (e.g. what we call a "talk" over here is really a slide show). food for thoughts * * (probably too long) * (probably too IRC, messenger oriented, though here I suspect my own distortion field. People often says "let's have a chat".) * (was wondering if it was less geeky than dialog, not sure) * * * * -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Web Archives
Le 13 mai 2008 à 18:55, Ian Hickson a écrit : On Wed, 11 Apr 2007, Tyler Keating wrote: Currently, I know that Firefox uses Mozilla Archive Format (.maf), Internet Explorer and Opera use MIME HTML (.mht) and Safari uses its own format (.webarchive) for saving a web page and all of its resources into a single file. So clearly a standard would be beneficial in ensuring "archive" compatibility between browsers and I think it's suitable for that standard to reside in HTML5. […] There are some specifications for this kind of thing already, e.g. multipart/related (RFC2387), and the derivative MHTML (RFC2557). See Widgets 1.0: Packaging and Configuration http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/ Abstract This document defines a Zip-based packaging format and an XML-based configuration document format for widgets. The configuration document is a simple XML-based language that authors can use to record metadata and configuration parameters about a widget. The packaging format is a container for files required by a widget. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] HTML4's profile="" attribute's absence in HTML5
Le 7 mai 2008 à 09:35, Ian Hickson a écrit : Summary: profile="" doesn't work in practice so we have dropped it. wrong. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/grddl-wg/prrequest -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Administrivia: new member in the oversight committee
Le 31 mars 2008 à 10:43, Ian Hickson a écrit : There's no public accountability for this group, no. It's roughly equivalent to W3C staff, except that it is not a paid position. If you really want your metaphor flies… You could have said "it's roughly equivalent to W3C Members of Advisory Committee, or Members of Advisory Board". That's all. W3C staff is tied by a work contract and a process. -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] , , and
Le 20 févr. 2008 à 07:36, Ian Hickson a écrit : Indeed, I spoke with Mark about this, and he didn't seem especially convinced that the example was convincing. :-) http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/02/19/all-these-years -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Acronyms & Abbreviations whatwg Digest, Vol 33, Issue 90
About acronym and abbr. Le 14 déc. 2007 à 00:02, Charles McCathieNevile a écrit : We could attempt to define clearly the meanings in different langauges, Recurring discussions in many fora. Languages have different definitions for these terms and worse different nesting and intersections. Not also that for chinese characters, it doesn't exist at all. on www-html http://tinyurl.com/2svb6v on esw wiki http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AbbrAcronym01 On Jukka Website http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/abbr.html Jacques Distler http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/blog/archives/000218.html Mark Pilgrim http://diveintoaccessibility.org/day_17_defining_acronyms.html # French Meaning * "Acronyme" is a "sigle" that you can pronunce like an ordinary word. example: UNESCO: United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization SIDA: syndrome imuno-déficitaire acquis (AIDS in English) OVNI: objet volant non identifié (UFO in English) * "Abréviation" is a word which has been cut of some of its letters, or a sentence of its words. example: c.-à-d. = c'est à dire km = kilomètre * "Sigle": Series of initial letters of words to create a single word. example: SIDA, but also CGT * "Apocope": cutting the end of the word to make it shorter. example: télé = télévision mat = matin Not to say that it creates localization troubles. For exactly the same meaning: TV in English => télé in French acronym abbr And what is supposed to do an automatic translator when translating something from English to Chinese for example. Drop the markup for acronym in some cases? Example English Tel.: +86-10-8498-5588 Chinese 电话: +86-10-8498-5588 -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Removal of Ogg is *preposterous*
Le 12 déc. 2007 à 03:21, Manuel Amador (Rudd-O) a écrit : Where would we be today if the HTML spec didn't specify jpg, gif, and png as baseline standards for the image tag? FWIW, in fact the HTML 4.01 spec did NOT mandate any image formats. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#edef-IMG "This attribute specifies the location of the image resource. Examples of widely recognized image formats include GIF, JPEG, and PNG." Plus the compression algorithm in GIF was covered by patents. Unisys woke up. The "Burn All GIFs" campaign started. Many shareware and freeware disappeared. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIF#Unisys_and_LZW_patent_enforcement -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Google research into web authoring techniques
Le 11 déc. 2007 à 13:52, Ian Hickson a écrit : On Wed, 25 Jan 2006, Ryan King wrote: Would http://microformats.org/wiki/rel-license be helpful here? Not really, as far as I can tell; it seems class=copyright is used on explicit copyright statements, not links to copyright licenses. See for example http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0868 -- Karl Dubost - W3C http://www.w3.org/QA/ Be Strict To Be Cool
Re: [whatwg] Web widgets
Ian Hickson (9 oct. 2007 - 14:36) : The W3C WebAPI working group is working on Widgets, so I'm going to punt on this as far as the HTML5 spec is concerned. Let me know if there's anything that you still think belongs in HTML5 about this. http://www.w3.org/TR/widgets/ http://www.w3.org/2006/appformats/ -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Style sheet loading and parsing (over HTTP)
Le 24 mai 2007 à 16:50, Anne van Kesteren a écrit : The HTML WG accepted to review the HTML 5 proposal. Presumably members of the HTML WG are doing that. I'm not sure why they would need tutorials as well to do such a thing. FWIW, the tutorial has nothing to do with the review, but it is an answer to multiple requests of Web authors and Web designers. The specification is not readable for them. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] sarcasm
Le 25 avr. 2007 à 17:31, Kristof Zelechovski a écrit :
Your quotation is incorrect because the Q element inserts language-
dependent
quotation marks on its own. Your markup produces the following text:
"« Toute forme de langage devrait être reconnue et libre d'exister
sans
ironie. »"
fwiw
no because the surrounding language is English. You would use French
quotes if there was French text around.
But you are right it is the correct double quotes, as it should be
English double quotes.
At least, it should. Internet Explorer does not do it because they
do not
support :before and :after CSS selectors, among other useful and
required
recommendations.
The only implementation which did it in the past was internet
explorer for Macintosh and I'm not sure for all languages.
with CSS, but unfortunately, not very supported last time I have
checked.
body { quotes: "\201c " "\201d " "\2018 " "\2019 "; }
--
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
*** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] sarcasm
Le 25 avr. 2007 à 08:19, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Alexey Feldgendler wrote: In Western typography, there is already a tradition to mark up irony with quotation marks: Yeah, George W. Bush has been such a “great” president. There's an even stronger tradition to mark quotes with quotation marks, and yet we have the q element. Because quote is useful not because of his punctuation but because of the possibility to give the reference of the quote. Raymond Queneau said: " cite="http://www.evene.fr/celebre/biographie/raymond- queneau-551.php?citations"> Toute forme de langage devrait être reconnue et libre d'exister sans ironie. " -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Conformance for Mail clients (and maybe other WYSIWYG editors)
Le 16 avr. 2007 à 18:16, [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : This is the most important reason why this is not a good idea. Your proposal will break almost the entire web. Current browser behavior is to ignore the and interpret the textNode as a nextSibling of the IMG tag. So browsers which do not implement HTML5 will break, because they show the alt text after the image. Just FYI. It was not about img element in particular but about the model. It promotes the idea of a model ala object This would not work for backward compatibility. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Conformance for Mail clients (and maybe other WYSIWYG editors)
Le 11 avr. 2007 à 17:21, Maciej Stachowiak a écrit : "The img element represents a piece of text with an alternate graphical representation." And also: "When the alt attribute's value is the empty string, the image supplements the surrounding content. In such cases, the image could be omitted without affecting the meaning of the document." It promotes the idea of a model ala object La tête à toto This would not work for backward compatibility. But basically alt="" has a lot of limitations. No markup, no multiple choices and in terms of usability difficult to edit. in a drag and drop scenario in your mail.app or other HTML authoring tool, you could imagine: +--+ | | | | the image itself | | | | | | +--+ | | <- here a dynamic text area popping up +--+ to edit the content. When the image is put in the window, a text is requested by the UI (a bit ala ajaxy flickr.) Then the markup could be generated. Another way is to give the possibility to associate the image with another of the content (definition) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Web Archives
Le 12 avr. 2007 à 05:24, Tyler Keating a écrit : I apologize if I've missed this in the specification or mailing archives, but I have a suggestion related to standardizing web "archives" in HTML5. The work has been already started See Widgets 1.0 Requirements http://www.w3.org/TR/WAPF-REQ/ Specifically 3.1 Packaging Format http://www.w3.org/TR/WAPF-REQ/#requirements_packaging Best Regards -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Video proposals
Le 16 mars 2007 à 20:23, Matthew Raymond a écrit : Laurens Holst wrote: | In fact by http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#adef-type-OBJECT type is optional, it is exactly the same than | Do you know the MIME type for Ogg Theora? I don't. I made it up. If the MIME type on the object listed doesn't say "video" in it, would you even know if the element was for a video??? The HTTP "Content-Type" has priority on any local specified "type" values. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Video proposals
Hi Matthew, Very cool set of test cases. Would it be cool to make them as individual files and send them as attachments. On the same line, this is a testing for object, W3C QA and WASP organised two years ago. Most recent information is missing. So if you have a browser please add it. http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/may2005/object-tests/ http://esw.w3.org/topic/ObjectTestResults -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Video proposals
Le 16 mars 2007 à 12:39, Ian Hickson a écrit : Wow, what a lot of feedback on video! I've added a element, with basic features, but really what we need is feedback from video experts. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#video -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Attributes vs. Elements
Le 13 mars 2007 à 15:23, Daniel Glazman a écrit : I would add a major principle, rarely explicit : PRAGMATISM. Sometimes purity calls for an element while browser implems call for an attribute ; or the contrary. And even if implem issues should not apply in theory, they do apply in real life... It comes with test cases and implementations. We can say a lot of things, and I'm pretty sure all interesting (at least in certain spheres), but in the end the the reality check is someone who can use the feature in its favorite tools in an interoperable way. modulo the "there are many kind of someone". -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Attributes vs. Elements
Le 13 mars 2007 à 03:25, Maciej Stachowiak a écrit : The recent discussion of possibly making the href attribute global brings to mind a broader issue. To what extent should semantics and behavior belong to specific elements, and to what extent should they be carried by global attributes that can apply to any element? more references, food for thoughts. * Markup design: elements or attributes? http://annevankesteren.nl/2004/07/markup * Principles of XML design: When to use elements versus attributes http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-eleatt.html * SGML/XML: Using Elements and Attributes http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/elementsAndAttrs.html -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] W3C restarts HTML effort
Le 8 mars 2007 à 11:12, timeless a écrit : At this point, it asks: Please supply below the name and a URI for your employer (if any). If employed, please indicate the intentions of your employer regarding joining W3C as a Member. * My employer intends to join. (Indicate below time frame for joining) * My employer might be persuaded to join. (Give contact information for a decision-maker below.) * My employer does not intend to join. (Indicate below why not.) * I am either self-employed or unemployed. * My employer is a W3C Host (Indicate below the name of the W3C Host). Additional information: And I can't figure out how one would answer it. There are two sections in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/ instructions 1. If you *work* for or represent a W3C Member organization http://cgi.w3.org/MemberAccess/ http://www.w3.org/2004/01/pp-impl/40318/join 2. If you *do not work* for a W3C Member organization http://cgi.w3.org/MemberAccess/Public (around 2 days before you can go to next step) http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/ieapp/ -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] lang versus xml:lang
Le 5 mars 2007 à 08:17, Anne van Kesteren a écrit : It would also make HTMLElement.lang useful for XML documents... (And user agents have to support and support this stuff already too.) Interesting. which supports for which user agents? -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] element proposal
Le 3 mars 2007 à 21:58, Elliotte Harold a écrit : By the way, I checked. HTML 4.0.1 never actually defines "image". It says imgs link to images, but it doesn't say anything about images being static that I noticed. How orthogonal are the specs really? There is a generic element in HTML 4.01 which has been designed specifically to be agnostic about the type of element you would like to insert. OBJECT element http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#edef-OBJECT Adding Multimedia in Web Documents (part 1) http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/jun2004/ Adding Multimedia in Web Documents (part 2) http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/may2005/ Some tests here http://esw.w3.org/topic/ObjectTestResults -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] element proposal
Le 3 mars 2007 à 20:29, Håkon Wium Lie a écrit : Finally, I think open formats are better than closed formats. The standards we write should not be neutral on this. Perhaps we should not name specific formats, however, only require that codecs are freely available for use across all platforms? Open formats by their nature give more freedom to developers and minimize economical constraints of implementation. As you said mandating a format gives the risk to make a specification completely irrelevant. Though even if we can update specifications, it doesn't mean that is that easy. It's what I usually call "the consequences of the first times". When we define something which is largely deployed, it becomes very hard to fix depending on the ecosystem. It's exactly like biology. For the Web, if the number of *new* documents produced each year is… 10 times bigger than the *whole* legacy content of the previous years, then we can mandate things somehow. But if the number of *new* documents is only 10% of the legacy content, the renewal rate is not quick enough to make changes. Requiring a free codec could be seen as reasonable but could have consequences on the whole food chain too. Imagine that the specs require only Open source browsers, that would have the same effect. So what can we do? Maybe, something in between. It could be required that the implementations support at least a format which has one free codec. As it will encourage but not forbid. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] element proposal
Le 1 mars 2007 à 14:27, Shadow2531 a écrit : On 2/28/07, Anne van Kesteren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi, Opera has some internal expiremental builds with an implementation of a element. The element exposes a simple API (for the moment) much like the Audio() object: I think it'd be cool if the video element *just* supported theora. Why it is not necessary good to mandate a specific format in a specification * When to standardize, especially an RDF API Dan Connolly [1] http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/03/orthogonal_specifications_is_good -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
[whatwg] [authoring] Roundtrip editing between word and xhtml
This is an interesting post from John Udell about the two extremes of authoring HTML with pros and cons and bridges he developed. February 19, 2007 Blogging from Word 2007, crossing the chasm [1] To that end, I’m developing some Python code to help me wrangle Word’s default .docx format, which is a zip file containing the document in WordML and a bunch of other stuff. At the end of this entry you can see what I’ve got so far. I’m using this code to explore what kind of XML I can inject programmatically into a Word 2007 document, what kind comes back after a round trip through the application, how that XML relates to the HTML that gets published to WordPress, and which of these representations will be the canonical one that I’ll want to store and process. So far my conclusion is that none of these representations will be the canonical one, and that I’ll need to find (or more likely create) a transform to and from the canonical representation where I’ll store and process all my stuff. We’ll see how it goes. [1] http://blog.jonudell.net/2007/02/19/blogging-from-word-2007- crossing-the-chasm/ I like the mention of the canonical form. Not exactly the same canonical form than his, but that would be good to have an html canonical form for editing. It would help building tools like for example htmldiff, tidy serialization, and source code visualizer in editing tools. It would help authors also to work the way they want with their files and still communicate files between parties. my source code layout <-- T1 --> canonical form <-- T2 --> your source code layout T1 and T2 being formatting transformation. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Authoring Re: several messages about HTML5
Hi adrian, Le 22 févr. 2007 à 07:15, Adrian Sutton a écrit : As someone who writes a WYSIWYG HTML editor for a living - I wish you the very best of luck, you're going to need it. Writing an editor is one of those problems that seems really easy until you get into it, then it starts looking hard. Did you notice in your development of an WYSIWYG HTML editor things from the specification that - were very difficult to implement? - were missing in the HTML language itself to make it easier to control the editing? Bonus question: Do you think that there are needs outside of HTML itself, but needed for authoring HTML, and would need to be shared among an authoring tools community? -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5
Le 21 févr. 2007 à 11:40, Lachlan Hunt a écrit : It's not so much a flaw in HTML's design, as it is the refusal of popular WYSIWYG editor vendors to replace common presentational UIs, such as font styles and colours, with much more useful semantic UIs. I don't believe it's particularly difficult to achieve. It just requires thinking outside the box a little and not simply copying what typical word processing software has done in the past. We are touching one of the mistakes here I think. Having the authoring tools developers involved in the development of HTML. In HTML world, browsers are often considered as first class citizens, and authoring tools as secondary. I would expect them to be on the same level, but for this we have to make an extra effort to convince them to join the table not only implementing but discussing the technology. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5
Le 21 févr. 2007 à 11:39, Ian Hickson a écrit : On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Vlad Alexander (xhtml.com) wrote: ...We could require editors to do this, but since nobody knows how to do it, it would be a stupid requirement. ... Is it due to a flaw in HTML that it is difficult to build authoring tools, such as WYSIWYG editors, that generate markup rich in semantics, embody best-practices and can be easily used by non-technical people? No, I think it's just something that is fundamentally hard. People think visually, trying to ask a Web designer to think in terms of (e.g.) headers instead of font sizes is just something that WYSIWYG implementors and UI researchers simply haven't solved yet. Personally I don't think it's a lost cause, but we're just not there yet. "Web designer" the term is too broad. There will be people concerned by markup structures, some not. Exactly the same way when people are using MS Office Word, which has two main modes: visual and structural. Structural mode in word helps to achieve indexes of figures, table of contents, automatic styling. I do not think it relies on categories of people but more on ROI (Return On Investment), if someone has benefits structuring information, they will do it. If there are no *direct and personal* benefits, they will not do it, except if constrained. Constrains can be "controlled editing" for example. What I mean is the type of editing, there is in an Addressbook, in a library software, in Web services with UIs driven by AJAX (photo services, messaging, calendaring, etc.) Constraining someone to make structural editing if he/she doesn't need it would be like constraining someone to structure the free note taking on the back of a paper envelop or how to organize a collage and text diary. It is likely to fail on massive scale. The question in this case is HTML the best technology to address sites like MySpace (scrapbook diary). Since much of the content on the Web is created using such authoring tools, can we ever achieve a semantically rich and accessible Web? There will always be a continuum of sites from the unusable to the very accessible. As with all fields of human endeavour, there will always be the highly competent Web designers who understand fundamentally how to build device-independent sites that cater to all kinds of users, and there will always be the inexperienced and ignorant Web designers who think only in terms of their own personal experience, targetting a specific browser on a specific computer without taking into account any other potential user experience. Probably the best we can do is design the language to make "the right thing" easier, and invest more heavily in education. In this regard HTML is in the same boat as more important subjects; I imagine that as we improve the quality of education in general, understanding of the importance of accessibility and related topics will improve as well. +1 -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] several messages about HTML5
Le 21 févr. 2007 à 09:05, Ian Hickson a écrit : If we want to make HTML5 successful, we have to make sure the browser vendors pay attention to it. Any requirements that make their market share go down relative to browsers who aren't following the spec will immediately be ignored. it seems a reasonable thought, but there are at least two cases, where it has not been the case. * CSS: text/plain versus text/css * HTML: closing the TABLE element We have to be careful on what we think will happen as much as we have to be careful on the reason of success of this and that. History is not an experiment and can't be tested and proved. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 --> HTML
Eliotte, Le 14 févr. 2007 à 03:56, Elliotte Harold a écrit : David Latapie wrote: HTML 3.0 too had some great ideas. I'm still missing - FN (but CSS3 has something about footnote that may fix this) - LH (caption for list! A must-have) - NOTE (I use for remarks) Did any browser ever actually support any of these? Are any of them recognized anywhere today? Or was it purely a paper spec? You are ready to read this. (Any ressemblance with recent events would be… blabla) ;) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Jan/0037 [[[ "We started with a simple plan," W3C's Dave Raggett explains. "We'd only put in things that were being used as of January 1st, 1996. That isn't a particularly ambitious undertaking, but it got the project off to a good start. Also we decided that the joint spec didn't have to specify everything. It just had to specify things that we felt comfortable about. "In a sense it was a reverse-engineering assignment," Dan Connolly, the group's chair adds. "We wanted to take what people were already doing and write it up. Basically we had to decide which elements we were going to bless." By concentrating on existing practice only, the ERB was able to get a non-controversial start. But were they just laying down track after the train had gone by? ]]] -- W3C Journal http://www.w3journal.com/5/s1.discussn.html Wed, 23 Jul 1997 21:38:45 GMT Many other interesting things to read in Advancing HTML: Style and Substance Volume 2, Issue 1 (Winter 1997) http://www.w3journal.com/5/toc.html -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Clarify how to indicate document hierarchy
Le 14 févr. 2007 à 08:12, Ian Hickson a écrit : On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, Spartanicus wrote: My preference would be to have a page on the WhatWG site that links to such authoring guidelines accompanied with a warning that they are not necessarily endorsed by the group. The spec itself could then refer people looking for more verbose usage guidelines to that page. I encourage people to write wiki pages on blog posts on this topic, especially if they are geared towards helping Web authors get more consistent authoring styles for this stuff. It sounds like an "umbrella specification"[1] linking to the different parts of what is related to HTML. - Primer - Core technologies (modular or not) - Best Practices could be done on either a wiki or a site ala PHP, with the core definition and comments about this definition. [1]: http://www.w3.org/TR/spec-variability/#umbrella -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Heading, binding, LH (was:XSLT: HTML 5 --> HTML)
David, Le 9 févr. 2007 à 23:30, David Latapie a écrit : dl dd (image) dt (description) /dl this is the opposite you should do. Let's say that you have an image which is *really* part of a definition list then dl dt (image)<- dt = Definition termas in the term to be defined. dd (description) <- dd = Definition description as in the explanation of the term. /dl For example, in a school a list of animal images with their definitions image of a fox with the appropriate alt and then the fox description. Exception is when I have several picture of the same thing dl dd (image 1) dd (image 2) dd (image 3) dt Various steps in the making of coffee /dl This doesn't exist. dt must be always before dd. You can't do that. A parser would not be able to associate the three dd to the dt. Plus the fact that it is an abuse of dl/dt/dd. The appropriate thing to do is: dl dt Term 1 with 2 definitions dd dd dt Term 2 with 1 definition dd dt Term 3 with 3 definitions dd dd dd /dl Last but not least (by the way, here, an ordering would be great, but only ol may have semantic order - except if one consider that hN are semantically order and using CSS counter make them visually ordered too) It /is/ ordered. Elements of an (XML) tree are ordered (it is one of the differences with graphs.) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] meter element
Le 9 févr. 2007 à 05:04, David Latapie a écrit : On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 20:39:54 +0100, Anne van Kesteren wrote: Have you read what is about? Because it seems to me like you didn't... meter has some meaning attached to that the proposed word does not have. I would tend to favour this one. I agree that meter will lead to a lot of confusion. I fear many questions or misunderstanding from people. Just because it has two possible meanings. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#meter0 possible words are: * tools - gauge - indicator - scale * semantics of content - magnitude - quantity - amount another possibility is to use the latine name: metrum or the greek name: metron or japanese: 『計器』 pronunciation: keiki (sure to not be used elsewhere) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
[whatwg] caption for lists and others Re: XSLT: HTML 5 --> HTML
Le 9 févr. 2007 à 21:42, Jorgen Horstink a écrit :
I totally agree. But then I would suggest to use some sort of title
element. But that would not make sense because it conflicts with
Hx. But if we want something like LH for lists, the question is;
aren't there other elements which can use some sort of caption/
title/header? How about images (viewing the title of the image
seems useful to me)?
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#edef-CAPTION
The caption element has been created for tables, but except if
browsers have a special parsing for it. I wonder what it would give
associated with other things like objects, lists, etc.
It's very common to see index of figures, index of tables, etc.
Here my caption
…
Or something like this
Here my caption
…
Though Ian seems to say that meta is put back in the HEAD element.
Q1: Is it happening only in tag soup parsing mode?
Q2: Would a data element which has not been created yet would solve
the issue Q1?
Here my caption
…
--
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
*** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 --> HTML
Le 8 févr. 2007 à 20:17, Nicholas Shanks a écrit : On 6 Feb 2007, at 07:57, Karl Dubost wrote: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html I wish the fallback tags had made it through the years. It's so much better than and doesn't suffer from the self-closing-tag-in-html problem. like object? http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/objects.html#edef-OBJECT See http://www.webstandards.org/learn/articles/askw3c/jun2004/ http://webstandards.org/learn/askw3c/may2005.html http://webstandards.org/learn/askw3c/object-tests.html http://esw.w3.org/topic/ObjectTestResults -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 --> HTML
Le 6 févr. 2007 à 08:55, Karl Dubost a écrit : Le 5 févr. 2007 à 22:40, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Has anyone written an XSLT stylesheet that downgrades HTML 5 to classic HTML+ appropriate and elements? With the right CSS, this might make a lot of it deployable today. If not, I may take a whack at it. unlikely. "div" and "span" elements didn't exist in HTML+. http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/HTMLPlus/htmlplus_1.html -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] XSLT: HTML 5 --> HTML
Le 5 févr. 2007 à 22:40, Elliotte Harold a écrit : Has anyone written an XSLT stylesheet that downgrades HTML 5 to classic HTML+ appropriate and elements? With the right CSS, this might make a lot of it deployable today. If not, I may take a whack at it. unlikely. "div" and "span" elements didn't exist in HTML+. It might be possible to write an XSLT to convert HTML 5 to HTML 4.01 and/or XHTML 1.0 but loosing some elements. That would be cool indeed if you could write it. Tag soup parser to normalize to XHTML 1.0 or XHTML 1.1 is indeed a great idea. I don't think XSLT is the best tool to do that, but I would be happy to hear your thoughts about it. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
[whatwg] Microformats, WebApps 1.0 and UI widgets in browsers
Just for the record, http://ejohn.org/blog/microformats-in-firefox-3/ Open to comments and ideas. 3. Karl Dubost, W3C Said, February 1, 2007 @ 2:21 am Mike, is there a place where you collect the comments, feedback, etc? First times are very important and lead to cool things, great improvements and painful ties sometimes. So indeed when a browser is proposing new UI widgets directly related to the *semantics* of content, we have to be very careful. At first, I say “cool, very cool!”. Then, taking a step back, I think what about the documents which have been created for the last 15 years before microformats effort existed. These documents contain class names which are probably and most certainly very similar to some values defined by microformats community. So there will be documents where a UI widget will be activated but not with the intended meaning. Basically it is changing the contract between the author and the reader by hijacking the intended semantics. There /was/ a solution for this profile attribute URIs with the URI of the used profile. Problem ahead it seems that some developers want to suppress this attribute in HTML document. I think there is a possible win-win here. The Mozilla UI widget could be activated only when the right URI (profile attribute) is really here. (a bit like the doctype switching). It will encourage people to use the right URIs, because the effect would be immediate, it will not hijack documents previously written. Everyone win. PS: Another switching mechanism could be used as well if appropriate. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] contenteditable, and
Le 10 janv. 2007 à 22:01, Henri Sivonen a écrit : (in Japanese) a switch to katakana, Wouldn't a normal Japanese writer enter the text as katakana into the document content instead of requesting the UA to transform hiragana or even kanji to katakana? katakana is used to represent foreign words. They do not necessary have a kanji, expressing the similar concept in japanese. hiragana is a phonetic system to pronounce the kanjis. These 3 systems are not equivalent. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] contenteditable, and
Le 10 janv. 2007 à 18:40, fantasai a écrit : That depends, actually, on the language. Browsing the Chinese journal section of a university East Asian Library, I noticed that the Chinese journals didn't use normal/italics -- instead they switched the style of font between their equivalents of serif and cursive. +1. I encourage people to "think out of the box" of their native language. We have a tendency to only see what we know, or what we believe to know. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] and
Le 6 janv. 2007 à 12:24, Charles McCathieNevile a écrit : It's a typical metadata/semweb scenario. You have some kind of useful data, but different people have different kinds and relying on one particular version fails as many people as it helps. (I like RDF because it was designed to provide useful answers in the face of lots of partial information). Indeed and agreed. Having written a lot of stuff in the traditional academic world that is slowly crawling to the Web, I don't see a lot of ISBN references. Hear hear. Same here, when I was doing astrophysics research. Though if you do http://www.google.com/search?q=astrophysics%20isbn Résultats 1 - 10 sur un total d'environ 933 000 pour astrophysics isbn. (0,40 secondes) Another example http://www.citeulike.org/user/ihuston/article/869979 With the tool (back end web server in this case) giving the BibTex reference. :) in a form. Useful in theory, but not a good basis for any serious work directed at the people who are actually going to read what you wrote. Agreed. It depends on the context of the usage. What I usually do not want on the Web or in a language like HTML, is to prevent a minority to use features of the languages, specifically when these do not require anykind of actions (implementations) from certain classes of products. (example with role and about attributes for desktop browsers). -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] and
Le 5 janv. 2007 à 20:12, James Graham a écrit : However hand coding is still the way that most documents, and certianly most semantically rich documents, are produced. People have been expecting "the tools to save us" forever but it still hasn't happened. I don't see why it will be any different for citation data, a subject about which most authors don't care a jot. Weblogs are exactly the counter-argument of this. Weblogs have done structured metadata BECAUSE of tools author title content date plus now tag, keywords for example. annotations (commenting system) Flickr is another example where tools specifically made it possible. (title, description, tags, geolocalization) Email clients another example Address book another example. I think it's completely the opposite. The issue is not about tools, it is about user benefits. Hand coding is too costly for most humans for poor benefits. I call that usually the VAT (Value Added Tax) and how to move this value from humans to machine. If having an handy form to put your data helps you to better communicate, to use the tools in a better way, then people use it. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] and
Le 5 janv. 2007 à 20:12, James Graham a écrit : That timing assumes that I have the book that I am quoting from open on the desk in front of me. It is just as likely that I am quoting from notes I made e.g. for the case of a reference book in a library (in which case I could write down the ISBN, if one exists, but would have to do so in addition to writing down human friendly metadata like, say, the book's title and author which I could use to make sense of my notes), that I'm quoting from memory, that I'm repeating a quote from a secondary source (e.g. looking up a quote from /Hamlet/ in a book of Shakespeare criticism because it is easier to find), quoting from a book without an ISBN or doing number of other things which prevent the ISBN from being close at hand. Interesting because I do read a lot, I do write quotes a lot in my paper notebook and one thing I do for every quotes I put is -> title, author, isbn and page number. why? because there are many editions of the same book, and if you want to find the reference in the physical object you will need the isbn (even if sometimes this one is unstable as well. rare case) -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
[whatwg] Ruby markup - Furigana Re: Presentational safety valves
Le 4 janv. 2007 à 18:41, Henri Sivonen a écrit : It doesn't matter much. It is rather clear that the ruby markup is intended for a particular Chinese and Japanese typographical device. You'd use the markup whenever you want to use that typographical device. Bothering authors with what they profoundly mean when they use the typographical device isn't particularly helpful. Furigana is an annotation system. And essential for learning the language at school. Or read the kanjis that are too difficult to be known when browsing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furigana http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_characters http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/ruby/ https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1935/ http://www.japanesejapanese.com/index.php/2006/01/30/pauls-cool-ruby- javascript/ These are examples http://www.city.motosu.lg.jp/dbps_data/_material_/IMAGE/ SYOUKOU_KANKOU/USUZUMI/furigana.gif http://www.sv15.com/img/furigana.jpg http://wakan.manga.cz/img/shotbig/shot3.png -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] Presentational safety valves
Le 4 janv. 2007 à 10:12, Ian Hickson a écrit : I don't personally know enough about to spec it. I would certainly look at detailed spec proposals (semantics, parsing, DOM) if they were comprehensive, and if they seemed sane, include them. http://www.w3.org/TR/ruby/ http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-ruby/ Intro article http://www.w3.org/QA/2006/02/ruby_annotation_to_change_the Implementations? see the bottom of the intro article. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] and
Very good demonstration. Same results for me. Le 4 janv. 2007 à 10:34, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis a écrit : As for people enjoying filling in citations, I've already pointed to two communities crazy enough to /pay/ for the privilege of doing so: the customers of LibraryThing and Delicious Library: And you can add another one, that I'm using http://www.bruji.com/bookpedia/ which does webcam identification as well and make all kind of exports with templating. another way of finding isbn/title http://www.google.com/search?q=isbn%20%22animal%20farm%22 It took me 5s ISBN-10: 0786172940; ISBN-13: 978-0786172948 -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] and
Le 4 janv. 2007 à 01:41, Henri Sivonen a écrit :
On Jan 3, 2007, at 18:22, Karl Dubost wrote:
As a side note, the fact that human authors are the main users of
the data doesn't mean that the rest of tools is useless.
If HTML had unambiguous sourcing of quotations, what cool software
would you write that would consume the markup?
Given into account that the notion of "cool" is very subjective and
tied to one's interests.
* http://web.archive.org/web/20030211001151/http://diveintomark.org/
archives/quotations/
http://web.archive.org/web/20030207035922/diveintomark.org/archives/
citations/
http://diveintomark.org/archives/2003/01/28/autocontent
* technorati, bloglines like
http://www.bookorati.com/
* threading for commenting system on Weblogs
a database of well known quotations, authors.
a databse of poetry
frequency analysis of quotes for texts.
I can also imagine a tool which displays possibility to have more
information on the quotes contained in the page by displaying a
widget with more exploration: spontaneous buy of the source which has
been cited (without to necessary use amazon), or get more information
about an author, redirecting to wikipedia
ala PageMapper http://labs.metacarta.com/PageMapper/
or OpenLayers http://openlayers.org/
How would you convince authors to produce the markup?
For those who have an immediate benefits for their own markup do the
effort. It is a bit like math. Most people use substraction and
addition, a bit less multiplication, a bit less division, though on
simple calculator, there are the 4 operations.
For weblogs authoring tools, definitely in some circumstances, the
forms or templating of any kind.
http://www.w3.org/2000/08/eb58
See for example, a simple way with a bookmarklet to cite a Web document.
javascript:void(window.open('%20').document.write('%3Ctextarea%
20rows=20%20cols=80%3E%3Cblockquote%20cite=%22'+location.href+'%22%3E
\n\n%3Cp%3E'+document.getSelection()+'%3C/p%3E\n\n%3C/blockquote%3E\n
\n%3Cp%3E%3Ccite%3E%3Ca%20href=%22'+location.href+'%22%
3E'+document.title+'%3C/a%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E'+new%20Date
(document.lastModified).toUTCString()+'%3C/cite%3E%3C/p%3E%3C/textarea
%3E'))
In NetNewsWire, it already exists, you can Copy a quote, the
generated markup is not "perfect" but it shows exactly one of the
possibility for authoring it.
http://jumpserve.com/blanco/archives/2002/08/30/cool-netnewswire-
blogging-feature/
http://face.centosprime.com/macosxw/?p=98
In fact the feature of "copy HTML with attribution" could be in any
kind of Web browsers by default.
--
Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/
W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead
QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/
*** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] and
Le 4 janv. 2007 à 00:24, Henri Sivonen a écrit : “Quotation” (Source) Punctuation and plain links go a long way for human readers. And I am unconvinced that authors would be willing to spoon feed data mining tools, considering that the beneficiaries of such spoon feeding are not the authors themselves nor even their direct human audience. /me creates HTML 6.0 Just 4 elements html, div, span, a and a few attributes. class, href, title, id, rel, etc Human audience will be satisfied. A lot simpler to type. For the rest it is just a question of css and appropriate class. I would like to have role and about though, and I'm satisfied. Useless semantics [Henri Sivonen (c)] defined by profiles with values of attributes. As a side note, the fact that human authors are the main users of the data doesn't mean that the rest of tools is useless. And sincerely I do not think the addition of elements will solve many things for HTML. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
Re: [whatwg] and
Le 31 déc. 2006 à 21:39, Anne van Kesteren a écrit : On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 13:28:44 +0100, Elliotte Harold <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I know the Web has a real problem with source citation, plagiarism, and giving credit where credit is due. However removing one of the real tools we have to support appropriate citation is not going in the right direction. You apparently didn't read the part of my proposal of moving the information cite="" gives to a more visual place. (I think I also mentioned allowing both if there was a real need for cite="".) It is useful and usable http://www.blog-and-blues.org/weblog/2004/08/24/284-attribut-cite- pseudo-lien http://simonwillison.net/2002/Dec/20/blockquoteCitations/ http://www.sitepoint.com/article/structural-markup-javascript http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200411/ quotations_and_citations_quoting_text/ It doesn't need always to be visual as well. plus the fact that the cite can be things like cite="urn:isbn:0671892584" And it is used on the Web, at least on my personal web site. The Web is not only about browsers. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
[whatwg] Index of elements, attributes, and other things
Le 21 déc. 2006 à 14:19, Ian Hickson a écrit : If anyone (Karl?) wants to maintain an index page somewhere that autogenerates an index http://esw.w3.org/topic/HtmlIndex Certainly many things to fix. Quick regex hacks to clean up the spec which has a not useful markup to make the index. Plus a bit of manual editing. -- Karl Dubost - http://www.w3.org/People/karl/ W3C Conformance Manager, QA Activity Lead QA Weblog - http://www.w3.org/QA/ *** Be Strict To Be Cool ***
