Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Alan Trick]

I think the future of CSS is not in hack or in conditional comments but
in using standard CSS. At the current time this isn't really possible
because of Internet Explorer, but from what I've heard about IE7 they
plan to do a fair amount of fixing up. Things won't be perfect and
support for nice stuff will still be lagging severly, but at least there
will be some platform that we can work off of.

CSS was designed to be backwards compatible, so as long as you're not
doing something that would create an accessibilty issue (like things
dissapearing) it would be quite alright to server modern CSS to the
browsers that support it and the ones that don't will properly fall back.

Of course, I'm basing this on the idea that IE7 will be up to the hype
that the guys at msdn are saying, and that MS won't sit down and abandon
the web for another half-decade.

Drake, Ted C. wrote:
> I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously into
> using the conditional comments. I’m saying this as someone that is
> trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting older conversions.
> 
> Conditional comments are IE statements that say if ie6 use this
> additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet, if neither: ignore
> this statement.
> 
> IE7 is going to throw a curveball worthy of a World Series ring.  While
> it is easy and more convenient to throw  a * html statement into a CSS,
> we need to start seriously looking at separating our hacks into
> different style sheets and intelligently using filters and conditional
> comments to refer to them.
> 
> I think the approach this person is suggesting is very 2005, we need to
> look at 2006 answers.
> 
> I’m dreading the idea of inserting conditional comments into the head
> sections of html pages. I’d like to insert it into the main.css file
> that imports more sophisticated styles.  I have been overwhelmed lately
> and haven’t been able to test any answers to this. Does anyone have a
> suggestion?
> 
> Imagine teasing someone that their CSS is “So 2005!”  Did I just coin a
> term?  Has Joe Clark already coined this one?
> 
> Ted
> 
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Re: [WSG] Printing Footers

[Alan Trick]

IIRC, position:fixed will do that for you, i.e.

#footer{
position:fixed;
bottom:0; right:0; left:0; height: 2em;
}

would create a 2em footer at the bottom of every page; however I don't
know how well this is supported. Internet Explorer certainly doesn't
support it.

Krassy wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> Is it possible to get repeated footers to print using
> XHTML/CSS? I asked this question on the CSS-discuss
> mailing list, but got no response.
> 
> I've done some research[*] and experimentation, but
> haven't been able to get a footer to print
> bottom-aligned on every page.
> 
> [*]
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alaprintstyles
> http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PrintingHeaders
> 
> Any and all suggestions and ideas are much
> appreciated...
> 
> Thanks,
> Krassy
> 
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Re: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions

[Alan Trick]

If at all possible don't use class names that describe the way something
looks, but more what the thing actually is. I find that using names that
discribe the style of something will almost always come back to bite
you. And depending on how large you project is, it can bite pretty hard.

I was working on a job for a company about 6 months (I was still very
new to web design then). The original thing they had there was a mess,
with  tags and other such ungodly tags up the wazoo (it was the
unfortunate result of someone useing Frontpage). So I converted it all
to the XHTML 1.1 specs, but in the process I used a couple of classes
like 'brownbox' and 'bluebox'. Well it turned out that those were poor
color choices, so it turned out that my 'brownbox' was actually
greenish, and my 'bluebox' was grey, and several other things that had
followed the same wort of thing. So in order to keep any subsequent
developers from going crazy I had to change all the class names. Which
was a lot of work given the aweful mess that ASP is.

I also agreen that human-readable URLs are a great idea; however, the
implementation of that sort of thing is very dependant on what your
working with, so unfotunatly it's difficult to give any guides.

Alan Trick

Nick Gleitzman wrote:
> James Oppenheim wrote:
> 
>> I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away
>> from two word file names.
> 
> 
> This is a question (discussion?) that comes up every couple of months
> here on the list - ultimately, I reckon you'll get as many 'conventions'
> in use as you've offered suggestions. I think it's very much down to the
> individual - and the ease with which other members of a team (or
> inheritors of legacy code) can work with your css.
> 
> I believe there are strong arguments for creating filenames that result
> in logical, human-readable URLs.
> 
> Underscores in class & id names are not a good idea - some browsers
> don't read them properly, and the styles aren't rendered properly, if at
> all... from memory, an early Safari was one such.
> 
> HTH
> N
> 

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Re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility

[Randall Potter]

Alan Trick wrote:


It is possible to get ASP.NET to give you compliant code.



Therein lies the rub in my opinion.  Isn't the tool supposed to make 
your task easier?  Who do you want in control, the designer/coder or the 
IDE?  Would you in fact tolerate that level of fiddling with a hammer if 
you wanted to use nails not supplied by the manufacturer?


That's my $0.02,
Randall

--
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Design and Development Lead
Midnight Oil Design: http://www.midnightoildesign.com

Pragmatic Programming Principle #59:
Costly Tools Don't Produce Better Designs.
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Re: SPAM-LOW: [WSG] Java (JSP) v .net for standard and accessibility

[Alan Trick]

Actually, Tatham was kind of right in a way. It is possible to get
ASP.NET to give you compliant code. However, compliance and web
standards are *not* the same thing. Compliance is only part of web
standards (and one of the smallest IMHO).

Take for example the Internet explorer blog on msdn.com
. The search form on the could be completely
valid markup (it's actually not because the id names start with an
underscore, but it could be). However, the code there is emphatically
*not* standard. Essentially they are trying to make a link to something
that a sumit input or button element should be doing. To cover up this
unholy substitution, they use a bunch of javascript. Of course the form
is completely broken to users without javascript.

Alan Trick

csslist wrote:
> wasnt bashing m$ was saying a FACT, you shouldnt have to use a 3rd party
> tool to get it right and your server-side lang shouldnt destroy your
> markup without user error.
> 
> see other reply, the guy was right!! It does obviously favors ie and
> last i check ie and compliance werent on the same page.
> 
> whats next? You gunna say frontpage writes complient code (if you know
> what you are doing) ;)~
> 
> 
> Tatham Oddie wrote:
> 
> Not true – you just need to know how to use it properly instead of
> Microsoft bashing.
> 
> If you do want to use the built in controls and still get compliant
> markup, I can provide you with a really simple article on how to do so.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tatham Oddie
> 
> ..
> 
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[WSG] Floating dl problem - Indented text

[Damien Hill]

I have run into a problem with IE6 (surprise!) when floating a  to the
right of content that is not contained in a  tag. On the first line of
the content, there is a 10 pixel indent that isn't meant to be there. The
code works fine in Firefox.

Example code:


Caption goes here

Some content goes here that isn't contained in a  tag...


I realise that it is incorrect to include content without a  tag, but a
CMS we are currently working with is forcing us to make allowances for this
situation.

Does anybody know what is causing this? Is it a known bug in IE and is there
a solution? 

An example of the problem I am having:
http://www.damienhill.com/tests/floats/


Thanks,
Damien Hill




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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Thierry Koblentz]

James Ellis wrote:
> Conditional statements in HTML such as those used by IE/Windows are a
> slippery slope and they seriously break a central tenet of
> programming. They are contained with  and
> comments in code are not meant to be parsed as code. It's just plain
> badness.

I don't follow you here. These comments *are meant to be* parsed by IE/Win.

> What happens if someone adds a comment that happens to be
> parsed by some piece of software? the software then goes on and does
> some unexpected things.

Anything inside coments is supposed to be ignored by UAs so if something
goes wrong it would be because of the browser and not because of what's
inside these comments.

> Comments, of course, can be machine readable such as those used to
> provide code documentation or CVS/SVN keywords, but these don't
> actually run anything or fork the code base.
>
> This is a 2005 version of mid 90's browser sniffing - forking the
> codebase to provide slighlty different content based on the client in
> use. Better to get the browsers actually rendering things to the
> published spec (hard, yes, but a better outcome).

IMHO, this is a nice idea, but not very realistic.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] new site designed - code walkthrough please?

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

adam reitsma wrote:

A real stumbling block for me is font sizes. I dread the time i want 
to re-use a particular style, only to realise that the way i've 
nested the tags makes my text 2px high...


http://www.bcct.org.au/v2


Maybe you shouldn't size down so many times through nesting then.
Note that there's something called 'minimum font size' in most browsers,
so you'll probably only affect IE/win users.

You've triggered the /legendary/ 'extreme font-resizing bug' in IE/win.
Add 'font-size: 100%;' on body to fix that.

'font-family: tahoma;'... missing 'sans-serif' at the end as fallback.

HTML Tidy points at a missing ' />' in the meta-element for xhtml.

'COMING SOON' container doesn't allow reading when any font-resizing is
applied since overflow is hidden.

#header_title h1 {text-indent:-10px;} is too large for Opera -
creating a scrollbar. Remove one '0', and it will still be plenty.
FYI: Opera use 16bit integer for calculating text-indent, which limits
it to around +/- 32000px.

regards
Georg
--
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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Patrick H. Lauke]

James Ellis wrote:
comments in code are 
not meant to be parsed as code. 

...
> What happens if
someone adds a comment that happens to be parsed by some piece of 
software? the software then goes on and does some unexpected things.


Then the software is broken, i.e. it does not adhere to spec. As with 
any other hack, you're exploiting that broken behaviour...compliant 
software will be unaffected.



This is a 2005 version of mid 90's browser sniffing


However, we still have to contend with pre-90's adherence to standards 
from the likes of IE5.x.


Better to get the browsers actually rendering things to the 
published spec (hard, yes, but a better outcome).


In certain situations, that requires dirtier markup, like additional 
wrapping divs and such. One or two, perhaps...but if it threatens to go 
out of hand, a conditional comment is, imho, a lot cleaner than 
convoluted extra markup.


--
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__
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[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
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Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsl etter!

[Alan Trick]

Just stay on this mailing-list and you'll hear *plenty* of points of
view's :)

p.s. It's good netiquite when your sending emails to a mailing list, to
use text-only (no html nastyness). In Mozilla Thunderbird you can set
this by going to Tools > Options > Coposition > 'Send and HTML options'
- Send Options and add webstandardsgroup.org to the list of plain text
domains. I don't know how to to it for MS Outlook, but you should really
stop using Outlook (for your own safty) anyways.

Good Luck

Craig Rippon wrote:
> Thanks for the comments everyone. I am a somewhat overwhelmed Web
> Development college student and was keen to hear your points of view
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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[James Ellis]

Hi 

Conditional statements in HTML such as those used by IE/Windows are a
slippery slope and they seriously break a central tenet of programming.
They are contained with  and comments in
code are not meant to be parsed as code. It's just plain badness. What
happens if someone adds a comment that happens to be parsed by some
piece of software? the software then goes on and does some unexpected
things.

Comments, of course,  can be machine readable such as those used
to provide code documentation or CVS/SVN keywords, but these don't
actually run anything or fork the code base.

This is a 2005 version of mid 90's browser sniffing - forking the
codebase to provide slighlty different  content based on the
client  in use. Better to get the browsers actually rendering
things to the published spec (hard, yes, but a better outcome).

James
On 9/30/05, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Drake, Ted C.  wrote:> I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously into> using the conditional comments. I'm saying this as someone that is> trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting older
> conversions.I rely heavily on Conditional Comments.IMO, the easiest way to deal with browser bugs is to feed them not withspecific rules, but with specific styles sheets.This is how I build/split my sheets:
- I use @import and design for Firefox- I use MS Conditional Comments to include fixes for the different IE/Winversions (above v4).- I use @import "cssFile.css" to take care of IE5 Mac.- If I decide to support NN4, then I use JS to write a link to a styles
sheet (CSS doesn't work without JS in NN4)For me the main advantage of these branching techniques is that I do nottake the risk of breaking one browser while trying to fix another. Also,because it eliminates the need for CSS hacks, my sheets are free of cryptic
rules.Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com**The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
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[WSG] new site designed - code walkthrough please?

[adam reitsma]

Hi peoples,

I've just created two draft pages for a site i'm working on. Whilst
I've spent years in HTML, and am relatively comfortable with the whole
Web Standards ideology, this is my first opportunity to build a site
from scratch.

Yes, it's valid xhtml, and yes,
it renders well in the browsers i've tested it in, but I was wondering
if someone could kindly afford me the time to give the code a
walk-through.
Which bits could have better semantic meaning? What do you think could
be done better? How should the code be structured to make it more
accessible?

A real stumbling block for me is font sizes.
I dread the time i want to re-use a particular style, only to realise
that the way i've nested the tags makes my text 2px high...

http://www.bcct.org.au/v2

Thanks in advance for your time; and your efforts in making the web a nicer place, one website (and web developer) at a time!

Regards,

Adam Reitsma.

Re: [WSG] FW: Killersites.com Newsletter - Not another nerd newsletter!

[Alan Trick]

The whole idea that a float *even can* be sematically incorrect is
absurd. Floating is simply a style, the way something is positioned and
it has no implyed semantic meaning whatsoever.

That said, it's an honour to know that were popular enough to warrant
trolls ;)

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> What a laugh. I especially love this quote...
>  
> 
> "Since when are using Floats for page-level layout, semantically correct?
> 
> Floats are designed to float images within the context of a paragraph.
> Yet many designs that are supposedly Web Standards compliant, use floats
> to create page divisions."
> 
> Here is just one very quick source from the W3C that justifies the use
> of floats for positioning of a box of content...
>  
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#floats
>  
> and goes on to say what the float property can be applied to...
>  
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/visuren.html#float-position
>  
> So I guess his claim that "floats are designed to float images within
> the context of a paragraph" may need a little more research.
> 
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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Thierry Koblentz]

Drake, Ted C.  wrote:
> I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously into
> using the conditional comments. I'm saying this as someone that is
> trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting older
> conversions.

I rely heavily on Conditional Comments.
IMO, the easiest way to deal with browser bugs is to feed them not with
specific rules, but with specific styles sheets.

This is how I build/split my sheets:
- I use @import and design for Firefox
- I use MS Conditional Comments to include fixes for the different IE/Win
versions (above v4).
- I use @import "cssFile.css" to take care of IE5 Mac.
- If I decide to support NN4, then I use JS to write a link to a styles
sheet (CSS doesn't work without JS in NN4)

For me the main advantage of these branching techniques is that I do not
take the risk of breaking one browser while trying to fix another. Also,
because it eliminates the need for CSS hacks, my sheets are free of cryptic
rules.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com

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Re: [WSG] css variables

[Alan Trick]

Hassan Schroeder wrote:
> Terrence Wood wrote:
> 
> 
>>Constants and variables are not going to part of CSS any time soon, so you
>>will need some kind of server side solution ...
>>
>>AFAIK they all use seom form of regex to do the replacement
> 
> 
> Well, no -- I frequently use variables in style sheets built in JSP,
> especially early on in development. And there it's simple Expression
> Language (EL) variable substitution, so something like this:
> 
> a:hover, a:focus { color: ${contrastColor}; }
> 
> can be evaluated per site, per session, or even per request, making
> it really easy to test, tune, and/or customize...
> 
> FWIW!

You can also do almost the same thing with PHP just do the following:



note that it's important that there are double quotes on the echo and
not single.
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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Ben Curtis]

On Sep 29, 2005, at 11:52 AM, Anders Nawroth wrote:

Conditional comments are IE statements that say if ie6 use this  
additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet, if neither:  
ignore this statement.



Conditional comments are Windows-only, unfortunately.



Conditional comments are valid comments. I think hacks are more  
treacherous than structuring your comments to activate an IE-only  
property in a way that is deliberate on the part of the browser  
developer (and therefore supported, and therefore future-secure if  
not future-proof). But it does mean that a) you need to code first  
for standards, and send IE a corrective stylesheet, and b) you need  
to markup the content to support it.


The only unavoidable downside I see is that it encourages bad browser  
sniffing behavior. I think the multitude of hacks out there encourage  
worse behavior.


--

Ben Curtis : webwright
bivia : a personal web studio
http://www.bivia.com
v: (818) 507-6613




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[WSG] Printing Footers

[Krassy]

Hi everyone,

Is it possible to get repeated footers to print using
XHTML/CSS? I asked this question on the CSS-discuss
mailing list, but got no response.

I've done some research[*] and experimentation, but
haven't been able to get a footer to print
bottom-aligned on every page.

[*]
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/alaprintstyles
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=PrintingHeaders

Any and all suggestions and ideas are much
appreciated...

Thanks,
Krassy


--
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RE: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi Anders
That's the beauty of them.
We're sending a special style sheet to IE and the rest are ignoring it. 
And we can define which version of IE uses the style sheet.
Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Anders Nawroth
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 11:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks


Drake, Ted C. skrev:

> I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously into 
> using the conditional comments. I'm saying this as someone that is 
> trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting older conversions.
>
> Conditional comments are IE statements that say if ie6 use this 
> additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet, if neither: 
> ignore this statement.
>
Conditional comments are Windows-only, unfortunately.
Otherwise I share Ted's view on this topic.

/AndersN

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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Anders Nawroth]

Drake, Ted C. skrev:

I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously into 
using the conditional comments. I’m saying this as someone that is 
trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting older conversions.


Conditional comments are IE statements that say if ie6 use this 
additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet, if neither: 
ignore this statement.



Conditional comments are Windows-only, unfortunately.
Otherwise I share Ted's view on this topic.

/AndersN

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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Ben Curtis]

Irina wrote:
I've found this to be an interesting idea and wondering what other  
members think about it:


"When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks":
http://spaces.msn.com/members/siteexperts/Blog/cns! 
1pNcL8JwTfkkjv4gg6LkVCpw!1805.entry



The idea is not new, the logic has a lot of merit (IMO), but is not  
commonly used, and I wouldn't recommend it. Actually this fellow  
doesn't do it justice: "class" is not a valid attribute of the html  
tag, for one, and by assigning classes based entirely on the user  
agent he's encouraging practices that have been debunked for some  
time, especially in Javascript circles. Browser sniffing is just a  
backwards-thinking method, compared to capability testing, which some  
hacks attempt to do.


His technique might be better dealt with if he assigned classes like  
this:




...and so forth. Of course, to do this with either server or client- 
side scripting still means browser sniffing, so you remain in an  
awkward situation.




On Sep 29, 2005, at 10:14 AM, Drake, Ted C. wrote:
I think the future of CSS is not in hacks but looking seriously  
into using the conditional comments. I’m saying this as someone  
that is trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting  
older conversions.
Agreed. The major stylesheet should be standard-compliant only and  
hack free. Then use a conditional comment to fix up the outliers.


Conditional comments are IE statements that say if ie6 use this  
additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet, if neither:  
ignore this statement.
IE 5 Mac does not respond to conditional comments. However, since it  
is dead, its response to the Mac IE comment filters will not change  
and such hacks are safe.


I’m dreading the idea of inserting conditional comments into the  
head sections of html pages. I’d like to insert it into the  
main.css file that imports more sophisticated styles.  I have been  
overwhelmed lately and haven’t been able to test any answers to  
this. Does anyone have a suggestion?


If you don't mind proprietary styles in your CSS, I was working on a  
conditional comment-like import statement that goes in the  
stylesheet. It worked, but Win XP SP2 allows scripting to be  
deactivated in the CSS as well as the regular page script, which  
would deactivate this technique. So I abandoned it. If anyone is  
interested, I suppose it still has a place in project where scripting  
is a requirement. Let me know if you use it.


http://www.bivia.com/sandbox/css_cc_4ie/conditional_comment_test.html

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Re: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Rob Mientjes]

On 9/29/05, Irina Ahrens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>  I've found this to be an interesting idea and wondering what other members
> think about it:
>
>  "When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks":
> http://spaces.msn.com/members/siteexperts/Blog/cns!1pNcL8JwTfkkjv4gg6LkVCpw!1805.entry#comment

Applying the class attribute to the HTML element is invalid, and a
browser could ignore it completely, provided you have some real bad
luck. I wouldn't recommend doing this.
N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i��n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q(��b��(��,�)උazX����)��

RE: [WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Drake, Ted C.]

I think the future of CSS is not in hacks
but looking seriously into using the conditional comments. I’m saying
this as someone that is trying to figure out the best approach for retrofitting
older conversions.

 

Conditional comments are IE statements
that say if ie6 use this additional CSS file, if IE5Mac, use this style sheet,
if neither: ignore this statement.

 

IE7 is going to throw a curveball worthy
of a World Series ring.  While it is easy and more convenient to throw  a
* html statement into a CSS, we need to start seriously looking at separating
our hacks into different style sheets and intelligently using filters and
conditional comments to refer to them.

 

I think the approach this person is
suggesting is very 2005, we need to look at 2006 answers.

 

I’m dreading the idea of inserting
conditional comments into the head sections of html pages. I’d like to
insert it into the main.css file that imports more sophisticated styles. 
I have been overwhelmed lately and haven’t been able to test any answers
to this. Does anyone have a suggestion?

 

Imagine teasing someone that their CSS is “So
2005!”  Did I just coin a term?  Has Joe Clark already coined
this one?

 

Ted

www.tdrake.net

 

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Irina Ahrens
Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005
9:17 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] When bugs become
patterns - A look at CSS Hacks



 

Hi, 

I've found this to be an interesting idea and wondering what other members
think about it:

"When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS
Hacks":
http://spaces.msn.com/members/siteexperts/Blog/cns!1pNcL8JwTfkkjv4gg6LkVCpw!1805.entry#comment

Cheers, Irina.

[WSG] When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks

[Irina Ahrens]

Hi, 

I've found this to be an interesting idea and wondering what other members think about it:

"When bugs become patterns - A look at CSS Hacks":
http://spaces.msn.com/members/siteexperts/Blog/cns!1pNcL8JwTfkkjv4gg6LkVCpw!1805.entry#comment

Cheers, Irina.

Re: [WSG] Page templates submitted for review (discard previous mail)

[Julián Landerreche]

As long as I know, you shouldnt serve XHTML 1.1 as "text/html". You 
should serve it as text/xml, or application/xhtml+xml

I read it may be... dangerous!

But, of course, I dont really understand what I'm talking about I'm 
just repeating what I have read on several sites.


Julián
Christian Montoya wrote:

LOL, I can't help but laugh on this one. There's two tiny little links 
with absolute positioning placing them thousands of pixels to the 
RIGHT... and somehow they aren't lost on the page. They ought to be 
placed thousands of pixels to the TOP, so that they won't make a 
scrollbar appear.


On 9/28/05, *Kenny Graham* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


semi-related:  your main site (fastwrite.com
) scrolls horizontally
forever in firefox
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Re: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions

[Irina Ahrens]

James,

Read this:
http://www.westciv.com/courses/free/week_05/managing_files.html

and Tantek's presentation today at WE05, especially "meaningful class names" part
http://tantek.com/presentations/2005/09/elements-of-xhtml/
Cheers, Irina.
On 9/30/05, Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
James Oppenheim wrote:> I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away> from two word file names.This is a question (discussion?) that comes up every couple of monthshere on the list - ultimately, I reckon you'll get as many
'conventions' in use as you've offered suggestions. I think it's verymuch down to the individual - and the ease with which other members ofa team (or inheritors of legacy code) can work with your css.I believe there are strong arguments for creating filenames that result
in logical, human-readable URLs.Underscores in class & id names are not a good idea - some browsersdon't read them properly, and the styles aren't rendered properly, ifat all... from memory, an early Safari was one such.
HTHN___Omnivision. Websight.http://www.omnivision.com.au/**The discussion list for  
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Re: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions

[Nick Gleitzman]

James Oppenheim wrote:

I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away 
from two word file names.


This is a question (discussion?) that comes up every couple of months 
here on the list - ultimately, I reckon you'll get as many 
'conventions' in use as you've offered suggestions. I think it's very 
much down to the individual - and the ease with which other members of 
a team (or inheritors of legacy code) can work with your css.


I believe there are strong arguments for creating filenames that result 
in logical, human-readable URLs.


Underscores in class & id names are not a good idea - some browsers 
don't read them properly, and the styles aren't rendered properly, if 
at all... from memory, an early Safari was one such.


HTH
N
___
Omnivision. Websight.
http://www.omnivision.com.au/

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Re: [WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions

[James Gollan]

Whilst it won't affect accessibility or usability for the end user 
(afaik) the class and id names should have semantic meaning indicating 
there logical function - rather than id="rightColumn" you might use 
id="localNavColumn" if the function of the column was to contain local 
nav. This means if the column changes to the left hand side there is 
still a logic to the naming. It also helps clarify the division of the 
page in your own mind.
There were some problems in earlier browsers with the underscore in 
class names and ids so I tend to camelCase.
As for the directory links, I think it might be more to do with the way 
the CMS is configured to produce clean URLs rather than any accessiblity 
issue. This increases the likliehood of Google indexing all of your 
pages (as opposed to get strings in the urls such as 
www.example.com?q=22). These are normally handled via server side 
rewrites of the url string.

HTH
James

James Oppenheim wrote:


Hi all,

Does anyone know of a set of naming conventions for css classes and 
ids? Should they have semantic meaning? I.E. “address” rather than 
“bottom”.


How should you go about naming the “right column” div.









What about for file names.

naming_conventions.html
naming-conventions.html
namingconventions.html
namingConventions.html
conventions.html

I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away 
from two word file names.


Also, I have noticed that many people use directories and the index of 
each rather than file names. I.E. 
http://www.companyname.com.au/stuff/conventions


Is this for accessibility?

Sorry about the question of three parts, but what do guys you think?


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Re: [WSG] IE MAC just won't play ball!

[Adam Morris]

I've found a 'bodge' using the faux column thing. Repeated a "wrapper"
background image for the body and it covers a multitude of sins!On 9/28/05, Joseph R. B. Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I noticed one other thing worth mentioning on the charismalab site.Your container div with the background gets cut off at the bottom of the
first page length (in Firefox using 1024x768 resolution).  I haven'tgone through your CSS as I'm supposed to be working right now, but I'mguessing that you have at least one height in the chain from html to the
content set to 100%. (screen shot enclosed)You may want to try going backwards in your document and set anythingthat div is nested in to be 100% as well including adding a declarationfor html itself set to 100%.  That should fix that.
>
HELP! I've just done a site for http://www.charismalab.com>
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[WSG] CSS class and id naming conventions

[James Oppenheim]

Hi all,

Does anyone know of a set of naming conventions for css classes and ids? 
Should they have semantic meaning? I.E. “address” rather than “bottom”.


How should you go about naming the “right column” div.









What about for file names.

naming_conventions.html
naming-conventions.html
namingconventions.html
namingConventions.html
conventions.html

I tend to use underscore for class and id, try very much to stay away from 
two word file names.


Also, I have noticed that many people use directories and the index of each 
rather than file names. I.E. http://www.companyname.com.au/stuff/conventions


Is this for accessibility?

Sorry about the question of three parts, but what do guys you think?


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[WSG] Page review (XHTML and CSS) - Blacksmith's website

[Tammy]

Hi everyone

http://www.meetup.developer.graphyx.net/blacksmith/test/index.html

This is my first attempt at creating a fully tableless design, using CSS
for layout, and ems. The client does not want a fluid layout, and
doesn't care too much about accessibility.

I have validated the code and css, and tested it in Firefox, Opera and
IE6 on a PC. It displays correctly in Firefox 1.0.7 and Opera 8.5. but
I'm at a loss as to how to get the left corner of the tab to display in
IE. The one other thing I can't figure out is how to not underline the
:: before the text in the non-tabbed links (in any browser) without
losing the effects I've already created.

What I'm looking for is fixes for the above problems (the tabbed display
in IE is something the client won't live without, though the other one
is not), and crits on the code and css for the page. Could I have done
anything better, easier, cleaner, quicker? Have I used hacks by mistake
where I could/should have used a workaround? Any other constructive
feedback before I create the rest of the site?

Please note that the current graphics are also not the final version, so
are not all optimised, or cut to size.

Thanks in advance for any help given,
Tammy :)

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