Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On Sun, 2010-07-25 at 11:12 +0200, Heinz-M. Graesing wrote: snip As this is a offer of mike I'd like to ask directly: If we choose some generic projects which can be easily mirrored and don't have a lock in effect, would you and anybody else like to run a mirror? This would be help to avoid the single point of failure argument. As tehre is defenitly know how on the list, we can offer some sites inside the wiki for documentation (running a mirror). snip We might be able to mirror. We're running flat out for time getting the new company up and running but, if someone can provide a simple how-to to set it up, we can try to squeeze it in. Are there any estimates on disk/bandwidth requirements? Thanks - John ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On 07/25/2010 05:12 AM, Heinz-M. Graesing wrote: Hello x2gousers, to get back to this discussion... We've received a lot of ideas and concerns on the list and as direct emails (again - those would better be posted to the list too...). Some words about BerliOS: A number of people are registered to BerliOS because of the projects past (x2go was only hosted there). They would like to see the project there again, so they don't have to register to anything new. In their eyes, BerliOS has the same features as any other project hosting site and it is free of ads, trackers and such things. Yes, a forge. Any decent forge will suffice. BerliOS should work. Git is - and that is what we like - really a good way to work with code as we do it (most of the time local on our mobile computers ). Sure SVN has some advantages, but maybe it is only that we've feel better using Git. Git is fine since you don't want to use Launchpad. As this is a offer of mike I'd like to ask directly: If we choose some generic projects which can be easily mirrored and don't have a lock in effect, would you and anybody else like to run a mirror? This would be help to avoid the single point of failure argument. As tehre is defenitly know how on the list, we can offer some sites inside the wiki for documentation (running a mirror). Are you referring to things like forums, wikis, bug trackers? I thought that was what BerliOS was providing? Isn't that the whole point of a forge? To reduce the amount of administration work necessary for an open source project? The source code: All of the historical binary and source code package archive needs mirrored at a public mirror (a university would be good). The Git repository should have plenty of people mirroring it so the code should be safe. This paragraph is very interesting in my eyes: Generally: o mails / mailing lists as information service offer a passive retrieval of information o use WebGUIs offer active search for information (i.e. active retrieval of information) Mailing lists (software e.g. Mailman): ... One thing to be aware of is that there is a huge increase in the number of mailing lists being seriously spammed. The python-list has recently been swamped with a number of spammers. If the mailing list is to be unmoderated then it should be read using something like Gmane which does spam filtering of the posts. If moderated, then all means of spam control needs to be employed. And the spammers have gotten wiser. They now post 1 or 2 topical posts before they start spamming the list. Probably from some of the human spam farms out there. They're actually hiring farms of humans to push spam so they can get by captcha's and other mechanisms. I'm now convinced that the only way we are going to stop spam is through legislation worldwide to make it illegal. Otherwise we'll be playing this cat and mouse game forever. ... Anyway, back to x2go. This all sounds real good. Regards, Gerry ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On Sun, 2010-07-18 at 01:17 +0200, Jörg Sawatzki wrote: snip We are working with git and now that is a big whish of you, the next thin we'll do is to get git.x2go.org working. Why don't you use github or *forge? It saves time and money and you have the same (and more) possibilities than with your own server. Apart from that, you'd have to setup a bug tracker, wiki and stuff like that as well - and run, administer, update and maintain it. I'd rather invest my time to get on with development instead of reinventing the wheel at this point. :) We wan't to use our own server to be able to autobuild packages etc... but I will push a copy to github too. There is absolutely no need for this - for example, if you have a project page on Launchpad, their servers can autobuild .deb packages for you - for all kinds of architectures and ubuntu/debian versions. If you still want to build packages on your own server, just build them from the github/*forge repository. Of course it is up to you - but keep in mind that it will cost you a lot more time (and money) to build and run an infrastructure that is as good or better than what all these *forge sites offer you for free. snip I second that idea. One can lose countless, priceless development hours learning, building, maintaining, and handling the inevitable catastrophes of one's own infrastructure - John ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Hi there, On So 18 Jul 2010 08:57:10 CEST John A. Sullivan III wrote: On Sun, 2010-07-18 at 01:17 +0200, Jörg Sawatzki wrote: snip We are working with git and now that is a big whish of you, the next thin we'll do is to get git.x2go.org working. Why don't you use github or *forge? It saves time and money and you have the same (and more) possibilities than with your own server. Apart from that, you'd have to setup a bug tracker, wiki and stuff like that as well - and run, administer, update and maintain it. I'd rather invest my time to get on with development instead of reinventing the wheel at this point. :) We wan't to use our own server to be able to autobuild packages etc... but I will push a copy to github too. There is absolutely no need for this - for example, if you have a project page on Launchpad, their servers can autobuild .deb packages for you - for all kinds of architectures and ubuntu/debian versions. If you still want to build packages on your own server, just build them from the github/*forge repository. Of course it is up to you - but keep in mind that it will cost you a lot more time (and money) to build and run an infrastructure that is as good or better than what all these *forge sites offer you for free. snip I second that idea. One can lose countless, priceless development hours learning, building, maintaining, and handling the inevitable catastrophes of one's own infrastructure - John Silently thinking by myself: ,,Running one's own servers... I can hear the system administrator's heart speak. As sysadmins, we like to be in control of our resources ;-) (even if they crash weekly :-O ). In resonance, Mike'' 1. Heinz said that he prefers to build the Debian packages on their own servers... Nonetheless, people here provide reasons why a *forge site is better etc. I think before providing suggestions and giving all sorts of good advice, we should ask Heinz and Alex, why they prefer building packages on their servers. If we know the answer---and it might be a very reasonable one---then maybe we understand their preferences or even worries and we don't have to haggle (,,feilschen'' in German) concerning this point. 2. Heinz and Alex are close to the next x2go release. I think, we are definitely delaying them with our ideas and list postings. I think that discussing project structures before the release is nice but counter-productive. A possible focus could be: 1. support the next release as best as we can (testing, bug reports etc.) 2. be happy once the release is out 3. ONLY THEN: take our time to listen to each others ideas, find a synthesis of them all and setup a working scenario that allows fluid collaboration, coordinated by the core developers of X2go Doing all this simultaneously (as we do currently) feels very chaotic and not really supportive to me. 3. We should not mix up the source development and the package maintenance for the various distribution (AFAIK *forge is for source code development, launchpad's ppa for Ubuntu package development etc. Canonical's Launchpad does not build Debian packages IMHO). Once there is a sensible point of time for this discussion i may enlarge on that. Greetins to all, Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, dorfstr. 27, 24245 barmissen fon: +49 (4302) 281418, fax: +49 (4302) 281419 eMail-LeseSchreibStunde: wochentags 8h-10h mail: m.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Hello, I think we need to talk about 3 different things: 1. source code hosting/modification/interactivity/versioning 2. the place where the code shoud be stored 3. the tools which should be used for organisation All three items have become mixed up in some mails and discussions. Again I had a lot of private mails - again: please post those things to the list (especially regarding those topics). -1- The first item is the question how the source of x2go should be published/handled. The big surprise: we don't have a discussion about what technique should be used (bzr, cvs, git, svn,...). To get this item marked as done: Is it ok to use git as version control and code publishing tool? -2- The second thing on the list is the querstion where the source should be stored. The place where you can find a project is in a way a statement. Some of those platforms are initiated by governments, some are ruled by companies with added social media and data collection strategies. This affects everybody who want's to collaborate, because she/he needs to get an account on the chossen platform. Some platforms are just not legally usable for us because of the legal situation in the country of copyright: germany (for example if they use ga: http://eu.techcrunch.com/2009/11/24/google-analytics-illegal-germany/). We first tried to use BerliOS with was in our eyes a good choise because in their special way, they could be called in a way (seen from the web) apolitical. The account is still alive and they offer git, so it can be used without any problems. Though some of the configuration is a bit static and can only be access via a webgui. So there was the idea to host it by our own - nobody need to register against some governmental or company driven services. It would be intersting which of the services you prefer to discuss the final location of the git (osor.eu, berlios, github, sourceforge, google code,...). -3- After we've answered the first two questions, we should talk about which of the offered tools should be used on the choosen platform. At the moment the whole project management is done via this mailing list. This decision was made in the past to avoid decentralized collaboration which caused a lot of duplicated messages from different locations (the Bugtracker on BerliOS is still active). The fact we are discussing now about the future here together in one place is a result of this idea. The mailing list is a very easy type of service. Bugtracker can be much more complicated and sometimes you only have a dictated user experience. This again can influence the choice of users helping us or not. So again: What do you think? Maybe gitbug is a possiblity too (bugs stored inside the git)? As this was a response to Mike's mail: Am 18.07.2010 14:42, schrieb Mike Gabriel: possible focus could be: 1. support the next release as best as we can (testing, bug reports etc.) Most of the bugs are not part of our code but can be find inside the used projects (xming,...). This makes it a bit harder to fix all known bugs. Another thing is the status of the mac port of x2goclient: - we don't have mac hardware (anymore) - we don't know how to embedd the window of x2goagent inside the browserview (x2goplugin vs. style guide of mac development) - there is a big number of complaints about the mac port because it is not using cocoa and build on objective c 2. be happy once the release is out This should be worth a party :). 3. ONLY THEN: take our time to listen to each others ideas, find a synthesis of them all and setup a working scenario that allows fluid collaboration, coordinated by the core developers of X2go I think we needed this exchange of ideas to get a bit more to know about each other and the project. Regards, Heinz ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
--- Heinz-M. Graesing x2go-...@x2go.org schrieb am So, 18.7.2010: Von: Heinz-M. Graesing x2go-...@x2go.org Betreff: Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository An: x2go-dev@lists.berlios.de I think we need to talk about 3 different things: 1. source code hosting/modification/interactivity/versioning 2. the place where the code shoud be stored 3. the tools which should be used for organisation WRONG! This are no questions! You need to use Launchpad/Bazar, because Ubuntu will become the only Linux on the market!!! You need to use python, because only python will survive for desktop use (java/(script) for the net)!!! And you have to be nx compatible, because nobody looks for unknown software!!! I'll put that stuff to my Lauchpad account when I've got time. By the way - good idea with the python lib! ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On 07/18/2010 03:54 PM, Eli K. wrote: This are no questions! You need to use Launchpad/Bazar, because Ubuntu will become the only Linux on the market!!! History does not bear out such a conclusion that Ubuntu will be the only Linux. The same was said about Minix, Slackware, Debian, RedHat, and many other distributions. One thing you find with free(d) software is that there is continuous evolution and improvements. And the most unlikely thing to happen is that one distribution would ever be the *only* distribution. When you go to the ice cream shop do you only see one flavour? You need to use python, because only python will survive for desktop use (java/(script) for the net)!!! Having programmed in over two dozen languages, again history does not bear out such singular results. Without a doubt python is a very good language. Will it displace Javascript? Will it conquer the world so to speak? Very very doubtful. And you have to be nx compatible, because nobody looks for unknown software!!! The only reason x2go is rather unknown is because a sufficient community has not sprung up yet around the software. But that is changing now. And when you look at the rather poor and frustrating uptake on NX projects as a whole there is no compelling reason to be completely compatible with approaches that are clumsy, stale and lack useability. I'll put that stuff to my Lauchpad account when I've got time. By the way - good idea with the python lib! Yes, there should be room for any of these types of contributions. Regards, Gerry ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Am Sonntag, den 18.07.2010, 14:29 -0400 schrieb Gerry Reno: On 07/18/2010 01:18 PM, Heinz-M. Graesing wrote: I think we need to talk about 3 different things: 1. source code hosting/modification/interactivity/versioning 2. the place where the code shoud be stored 3. the tools which should be used for organisation All three items have become mixed up in some mails and discussions. Again I had a lot of private mails - again: please post those things to the list (especially regarding those topics). -1- The first item is the question how the source of x2go should be published/handled. The big surprise: we don't have a discussion about what technique should be used (bzr, cvs, git, svn,...). To get this item marked as done: Is it ok to use git as version control and code publishing tool? I am personally used to Git and therefore would prefer it. I was lost when I had to use bzr or hg. One needs to understand the purpose and reasoning behind the different VCS tools in order to make such a decision. 'git' was developed as a tool for use by the Linux kernel developers after the decision was taken many years ago to move away from a predecessor proprietary VCS tool. One of the goals was to make sequences of very small commits across many files perform well. And git does that rather well. This is the life of a kernel developer - making the same small changes across many different trees. Collaboration, distributed teaming, offline coding, none of these were considerations in the development of git. On the other hand collaboration, distributed teaming and offline coding became increasingly important considerations as development of VCS tools occurred over the years especially in light of the Internet and the global distribution of teams. And so as you move from cvs, to subversion, to mercurial and bazaar you see more and more focus on these qualities. And in distributed team environments these qualities are far more important than whether the VCS can perform a small commit sequence in .186 seconds compared to .489 seconds on some distributed team VCS. The difference in performance is mostly negligible and unnoticeable until you get to projects that have beyond 50,000 files in a single directory. x2go is clearly far from this type of size. My own preference on any open source project is to use the VCS tools that have the most capabilities in supporting globally distributed development. To that end, Bazaar (bzr), or Mercurial (hg), are the clear winners. And the ability to use a fully featured forge such as Launchpad coupled with a fully featured distributed VCS such as Bazaar is very compelling. And for those that like to work in 'git', 'svn', 'hg', etc. there are plugins to Bazaar that allow you to work locally in git/svn/hg and then perform a push to the Bazaar repository on Launchpad when your code is ready. I suggest you setup a small test project on Launchpad sandbox and try all this for yourselves. I think there is no objective way to choose the optimal VCS. No consensus will be reached I think since every difference/feature will be considered good or bad depending who looks at it. For Git for example this support site exists [1]. And over the last few releases distinguishing features (manual pages, help output, setting up a web server, plugins, …) have all been incorporated into the different VCS. Anyway, I would say, just pick the tool Alex and you are feeling most comfortable with. If you do not care then take into account the preferences from those guys you are going to expect patches from. [1] http://whygitisbetterthanx.com/ -2- The second thing on the list is the question where the source should be stored. The place where you can find a project is in a way a statement. Some of those platforms are initiated by governments, some are ruled by companies with added social media and data collection strategies. This affects everybody who want's to collaborate, because she/he needs to get an account on the chossen platform. Some platforms are just not legally usable for us because of the legal situation in the country of copyright: germany (for example if they use ga: http://eu.techcrunch.com/2009/11/24/google-analytics-illegal-germany/). We first tried to use BerliOS with was in our eyes a good choise because in their special way, they could be called in a way (seen from the web) apolitical. The account is still alive and they offer git, so it can be used without any problems. Though some of the configuration is a bit static and can only be access via a webgui. So there was the idea to host it by our own - nobody need to register against some governmental or company driven services. Google Analytics has NOT been made illegal in Germany nor is it likely. There were a bunch of ill-informed tech-illiterate politicians running around making out
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Dear Eli, On So 18 Jul 2010 21:54:10 CEST Eli K. wrote: --- Heinz-M. Graesing x2go-...@x2go.org schrieb am So, 18.7.2010: Von: Heinz-M. Graesing x2go-...@x2go.org Betreff: Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository An: x2go-dev@lists.berlios.de I think we need to talk about 3 different things: 1. source code hosting/modification/interactivity/versioning 2. the place where the code shoud be stored 3. the tools which should be used for organisation WRONG! This are no questions! You need to use Launchpad/Bazar, because Ubuntu will become the only Linux on the market!!! You need to use python, because only python will survive for desktop use (java/(script) for the net)!!! And you have to be nx compatible, because nobody looks for unknown software!!! I'll put that stuff to my Lauchpad account when I've got time. By the way - good idea with the python lib! Good to know your opinion that clearly, now. My very feeling is that you are not very experienced with finding a consensus within a group of people. If you want to collaborate within a project like X2go (or any other project) there are some ways that lead to being successful: o being humble o going step-by-step o being nice and kind to the people around o listening to the wishes, visions and fears of the collaborators o see what's already there / possible o if you have new ideas you optimally create them as new possibilities for the project and gain other collaborators interests o don't be disappointed if your ideas will not be accepted by others o etc. Maybe you are technically right concerning the aspects you wrote about. But the way how you write (stylishly) feels to me like it will rather repel people. If you want to be heard I recommend finding a less bossy way when composing your wishes, thoughts and ideas for us on the list. My 10¢, Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, dorfstr. 27, 24245 barmissen fon: +49 (4302) 281418, fax: +49 (4302) 281419 eMail-LeseSchreibStunde: wochentags 8h-10h mail: m.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On 07/18/2010 05:15 PM, Gerry Reno wrote: On 07/18/2010 04:38 PM, Paul Menzel wrote: [1] http://whygitisbetterthanx.com/ In the interest of equal representation here are some links regarding other VCS: http://unspecified.wordpress.com/2010/03/26/why-git-aint-better-than-x/ http://doc.bazaar.canonical.com/migration/en/why-switch-to-bazaar.html http://hgbook.red-bean.com/read/how-did-we-get-here.html Regards, Gerry The whole point of tool discussion in an open source project should be what tools make it easiest for the community as a whole to contribute, collaborate and participate in the project. When you look at the massive success of forges such as Launchpad and SourceForge that didn't happen accidentally. It happened because these forges are extremely good at providing all of the infrastructure, collaboration tools, tracking tools, and source code management tools for an open source project. To try and duplicate this type of free services using your own hardware, software, and infrastructure is just not possible. Why go back and use 'bone knives and bearskins' with your own infrastructure and waste countless valuable hours reinventing the wheel when you can have all this handed to you on a silver platter for free? I think this is why hundreds of thousands of projects are using the forges and spending their time thinking about their projects instead of all the necessities of supporting an infrastructure. Regards, Gerry ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
[ Please reply in context. ] Am Sonntag, den 18.07.2010, 17:36 -0400 schrieb Gerry Reno: […] The whole point of tool discussion in an open source project should be what tools make it easiest for the community as a whole to contribute, collaborate and participate in the project. If you have two main developers, I would take that into consideration. And since there is no big community yet, nobody knows what the community is going to prefer. When you look at the massive success of forges such as Launchpad and SourceForge that didn't happen accidentally. It happened because these forges are extremely good at providing all of the infrastructure, collaboration tools, tracking tools, and source code management tools for an open source project. I also heard of some projects moving away from those services. To try and duplicate this type of free services using your own hardware, software, and infrastructure is just not possible. Why go back and use 'bone knives and bearskins' with your own infrastructure and waste countless valuable hours reinventing the wheel when you can have all this handed to you on a silver platter for free? I think this is why hundreds of thousands of projects are using the forges and spending their time thinking about their projects instead of all the necessities of supporting an infrastructure. As I have already written. 1. Independence. There is the danger that you are locked into the project and depend on their reaction time. See the BerliOS and renaming the mailing list issues. Using a server for yourself you are in control of it. 2. As I have written. Maybe it is no overhead for Alex or Heinz since they need to administer a server and those services anyway. We both do not know that. Thanks, Paul signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On 07/18/2010 05:50 PM, Paul Menzel wrote: [ Please reply in context. ] Am Sonntag, den 18.07.2010, 17:36 -0400 schrieb Gerry Reno: […] The whole point of tool discussion in an open source project should be what tools make it easiest for the community as a whole to contribute, collaborate and participate in the project. If you have two main developers, I would take that into consideration. And since there is no big community yet, nobody knows what the community is going to prefer. As the community grows it will be composed of open source participants and contributors as it always is. And these people are already familiar with Launchpad and SourceForge for the most part because they have been almost always participating and contributing in other open source projects which on average are hosted on one of those two forges. When you look at the massive success of forges such as Launchpad and SourceForge that didn't happen accidentally. It happened because these forges are extremely good at providing all of the infrastructure, collaboration tools, tracking tools, and source code management tools for an open source project. I also heard of some projects moving away from those services. And that is not recently. Yes, there were some capacity issues on the major forges for a while when they got entirely overwhelmed by their success. Those issues have been resolved for quite a while now. And recently you are seeing really big-name projects such as MySQL, MariaDB, and GNU projects moving onto Launchpad. To try and duplicate this type of free services using your own hardware, software, and infrastructure is just not possible. Why go back and use 'bone knives and bearskins' with your own infrastructure and waste countless valuable hours reinventing the wheel when you can have all this handed to you on a silver platter for free? I think this is why hundreds of thousands of projects are using the forges and spending their time thinking about their projects instead of all the necessities of supporting an infrastructure. As I have already written. 1. Independence. There is the danger that you are locked into the project and depend on their reaction time. See the BerliOS and renaming the mailing list issues. Using a server for yourself you are in control of it. In control of a single point of failure. Great. And you could buy an electrical generator and make your own electricity. And maybe a wafer production facility and make your own hardware chips. 2. As I have written. Maybe it is no overhead for Alex or Heinz since they need to administer a server and those services anyway. We both do not know that. That's their choice if they want to fiddle around with hardware. But the project should not be based on developers 'single point of failure' server. It needs to be placed at a forge service provider that has all the inhouse expertise to deal with hosting open source projects and the required infrastructure and services. Regards, Gerry ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Hello Community, Helpers and x2go users, I'm not at homeat the moment, so I don't have time for an email containing all topics that appeared in the last posts. We read all emails on this list and as soon as there is the possibility, I'll try to respond on a lot of ideas you have given. I just wan't to point out, that we haven't been prepared for this amount of movement and ideas. We all wan't x2go to be a sucessfull project, but we all have different ideas of what x2go is or should be. I would like to handle this like debian: to combine your ideas with x2go directly or let you create some meta distributions (like debian med or debian edu). It would be a great honor to collect all ideas on our site so that users can find them directly. We are working with git and now that is a big whish of you, the next thin we'll do is to get git.x2go.org working. We wan't to use our own server to be able to autobuild packages etc... but I will push a copy to github too. Please let us discuss the next steps, after I'm back at home... Regards, Heinz Am 15.07.2010 11:55, schrieb Mike Gabriel: Hi there, On Do 15 Jul 2010 03:15:13 CEST Gerry Reno wrote: Heinz, I went looking for the source code at http://git.x2go.org/ today but there is nothing there. Is the source code at some other URL? I think a lot of questions could be answered and good contributions suggested if the source was readily available which it should be since x2go is linking NX GPL-v2 libraries. I am also looking forward to more collaboration ... I think some of us list-folks are hoping for more possibilities of contributing (ideas, bugs, patches), a source code repos will be one aspect of this. (I personally love to know if things I am hoping for have a chance of becoming real some time in the near futures.) Another possibility - and this is also one possible way of approaching a project like x2go - is that Heinz and Alex state explicitly that priorities are different in the core development team and driving forward collaboration is not on the current agenda. This will also be OK!!! But if so, I think, it needs a statement on the x2go-dev list, so people around get informed. Greets, Mike ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Hi Heinz, that all sounds very good and promising. I would like to handle this like debian: to combine your ideas with x2go directly or let you create some meta distributions (like debian med or debian edu). A good idea in general, but I am not sure if this makes sense with a rather small project (compared to a whole linux distribution). What kind of flavours/meta distributions should x2go have? With linux distributions, it is different, because users have a lot of different purposes like using it in education, in a small business, on a netbook or an embedded system like a router or a smartphone. But x2go? Isn't the purpose of all users to create a fast and reliable terminal server environment? x2go-edu? x2go-netbook-edition? :o) Maybe I am on the wrong track, but I can hardly imagine a single meta distribution of x2go that would make sense. My suggestion: Make ONE x2go-core that you maintain and where you decide what contributions and features you include - everything else (things that have specific purposes not needed by all users) is provided as plugin/module that is maintained by the contributor himself. Saves you work, makes it easy for contributors and is a very clear concept. I'd rather install one x2go and choose the additional modules I need instead of trying x2go-foo, x2go-edu, x2go-bar to see what could fit best. We are working with git and now that is a big whish of you, the next thin we'll do is to get git.x2go.org working. Why don't you use github or *forge? It saves time and money and you have the same (and more) possibilities than with your own server. Apart from that, you'd have to setup a bug tracker, wiki and stuff like that as well - and run, administer, update and maintain it. I'd rather invest my time to get on with development instead of reinventing the wheel at this point. :) We wan't to use our own server to be able to autobuild packages etc... but I will push a copy to github too. There is absolutely no need for this - for example, if you have a project page on Launchpad, their servers can autobuild .deb packages for you - for all kinds of architectures and ubuntu/debian versions. If you still want to build packages on your own server, just build them from the github/*forge repository. Of course it is up to you - but keep in mind that it will cost you a lot more time (and money) to build and run an infrastructure that is as good or better than what all these *forge sites offer you for free. Jörg ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On 07/17/2010 07:17 PM, Jörg Sawatzki wrote: Heinz wrote: We wan't to use our own server to be able to autobuild packages etc... but I will push a copy to github too. There is absolutely no need for this - for example, if you have a project page on Launchpad, their servers can autobuild .deb packages for you - for all kinds of architectures and ubuntu/debian versions. If you still want to build packages on your own server, just build them from the github/*forge repository. Of course it is up to you - but keep in mind that it will cost you a lot more time (and money) to build and run an infrastructure that is as good or better than what all these *forge sites offer you for free. Jörg Jörg, I agree with this completely. Why reinvent wheels? One of the forges already has everything needed by a project and is managed, updated and maintained for free. No worrying about your own server crashing. No fiddling with various bugtracker, wiki, blog, vcs, etc. setups. And you just mirror back to your own server if you feel the need to do that. And as you point out, Launchpad is very featured and can automatically generate .deb files. If you use their repository, you can always use the git-bzr plugin that allows you to work in git and still use the Launchpad bazaar seemlessly. You never know the difference. Gerry ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Gerry, thanks for your expertise on this. I will mark this mail for further reference, in case I will need it some time. It is a really good digest on the subject of freed software. Thanks a lot, Mike On Fr 16 Jul 2010 04:07:47 CEST Gerry Reno wrote: There has always been confusion about the terms free software and open source software and all the different open source licenses that are available. There are essentially four (4) categories of open source software: 1. Free Software (FS) 2. Open Source Software (OSS) 3. Free (Libre) Open Source Software (FOSS, FLOSS) 4. Commercial Open Source Software (COSS) In all of these the term free does not have anything to do with price. It means freedom as in liberty, unfettered, unconstrained, etc. I think a better term might have been freed software to avoid confusion and I will use that term here for clarity. So what do these different terms mean? 1. Free(d) Software (FS) is software that is released in a human-readable form (source code) and has applied to it a free(d) software license defining the four freedoms, as first proposed and championed by Richard Stallman of the Free Software Foundation, that are granted to users of the software or it is put into the public domain. (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) The four freedoms are: 0. The freedom to run the program, for any purpose. 1. The freedom to study how the program works, and change it to make it do what you wish. 2. The freedom to redistribute copies. 3. The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others. 2. Open Source Software (OSS) is not so clearly defined as was free(d) software and there are various definitions available. The Open Source Initiative tried to codify the concept of open source to mean no restrictions to freely distribute the software, that the software must contain at least the clear unobfuscated original source code and optionally binary code, that the license must not discriminate against any individual or group or field of endeavor or technology, that the license grant all users the same rights as the author acquired and not require the execution of a different license, that the license not restrict the software to being part of a specific software assembly, that the license not restrict other software. (http://www.opensource.org/docs/osd). This is basically a clumsy rewording of parts of the free(d) software definition. However many open source licenses resulted that technically met the definition of open source and yet were not free(d) software licenses. 3. Free (Libre) Open Source Software (FOSS, FLOSS) is an attempt to clarify that the software is both open source and licensed under a free(d) software license. In other words it is free(d) software as per Stallman's FSF definition. 4. Commercial Open Source Software (COSS) is a category of open source software that does not meet the criteria for a free(d) software license. Certain rights may be restricted to users of the software in a non-free license despite the fact that it technically open source. NOTE: It is important to note that whenever a software is derived from a free(d) software license such as the GPL that the copyleft requirements permanently make all derived works as also being free(d) software. This means that when you link to a GPL library that you cannot later decide to release the derived work under another license. Just ask Linus Torvalds about this if you have any doubt. And there is more to the story of free(d) and open source software that just the software itself. There is the manner in which the software is built. There are the concepts of open and closed development processes. In general the first three categories above usually involve open development processes whereby a community is built surrounding the software and is fully involved under the guidance of a free(d) or open source editor who is the evangelist and de facto leader, the CEO if you will, for the software project. The last category of commercial open source usually involves a closed development process where there is no or very little community and the software is constructed without community involvement and is finally released with its sources under some form of non-free open source license. Today you find huge supportive communities built up around free(d) open source software projects following an open development process. Take for example Linux, where there are hundreds of thousands of community members supporting distributions such as Fedora, Debian, Suse, Ubuntu, Centos, and a host of others. If it weren't for the contributions of thousands of volunteers under an open development process Linux would never have been what it is today. And it's hard to name even one open source project following a closed development process that has
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Dear Jörg, Am Freitag, den 16.07.2010, 15:27 +0200 schrieb Joerg Sawatzki: Well, using VCS doesn't mean that you are giving away power/leadership of the project. Using VCS means saving a lot of time and being a lot more productive, even if you do not accept any contribution of anybody. I agree with most of your points, but I didn't read any reason against using VCS. that is because no reasons were stated. I'd love to work 1-2 hours per day on x2go, but NOT on source code that is a couple of months or even years old and send tar.gz through e-mail until the confusion is perfect and nobody knows who's talking about what state/revision of the code. But it is all right if you don't want that free gift. And no, VCS is not just a way to download files that could also be put in a .tar.gz - VCS is the one and only way to make structured open, fast and reliable development possible. If you don't believe me, ask anybody who has worked in a professional software project. I heard stories about the development environments in professional software projects in some companies. I guess you would run away screaming. ;-) Anyway, this is my last mail on this subject - I have offered you my support and you don't want it for reasons I don't know. Please do not complain if an x2go-ng project appears on github in the next few months - I need to help myself and my clients - and well, I have asked you before. I talked to Heinz at LinuxTag and read his answers. As far as I understood, they are using a VCS (Git) already and they are going to make it public! But it will take them some time. So we could argue about the correct order of the priority list, but I suggest to be patient a little more and to be optimistic that this will happen soon. Seeing all you people raring to go to get your hands dirty, I am looking forward to all your contributions! Thanks, Paul signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Hi Joerg, On Fr 16 Jul 2010 15:27:52 CEST Joerg Sawatzki wrote: Hi. Well, using VCS doesn't mean that you are giving away power/leadership of the project. Using VCS means saving a lot of time and being a lot more productive, even if you do not accept any contribution of anybody. I agree with most of your points, but I didn't read any reason against using VCS. I'd love to work 1-2 hours per day on x2go, but NOT on source code that is a couple of months or even years old and send tar.gz through e-mail until the confusion is perfect and nobody knows who's talking about what state/revision of the code. But it is all right if you don't want that free gift. And no, VCS is not just a way to download files that could also be put in a .tar.gz - VCS is the one and only way to make structured open, fast and reliable development possible. If you don't believe me, ask anybody who has worked in a professional software project. Anyway, this is my last mail on this subject - I have offered you my support and you don't want it for reasons I don't know. Please do not complain if an x2go-ng project appears on github in the next few months - I need to help myself and my clients - and well, I have asked you before. I get your point about VCS completely, GIT is planned by the developers for the very near future. It will come after the next release is out. As a contributer, working on the most recent code base is absolutely necessary for providing your contributions. However, I strongly think, that we should focus our brains and hearts on a common solution for X2go!!! Maybe this needs time, patience and also a soft perception for the needs, wishes and hesitations of others. You can never go too deep, but only too fast... Similar to you, I am currently working on a terminal server concept for schools in Schleswig-Holstein, Germany. Maybe there is interest on your side to share ideas and approaches. Please contact me privately (and in German) if you like. Best, Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, dorfstr. 27, 24245 barmissen fon: +49 (4302) 281418, fax: +49 (4302) 281419 eMail-LeseSchreibStunde: wochentags 8h-10h mail: m.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Hi there, On Do 15 Jul 2010 03:15:13 CEST Gerry Reno wrote: Heinz, I went looking for the source code at http://git.x2go.org/ today but there is nothing there. Is the source code at some other URL? I think a lot of questions could be answered and good contributions suggested if the source was readily available which it should be since x2go is linking NX GPL-v2 libraries. I am also looking forward to more collaboration ... I think some of us list-folks are hoping for more possibilities of contributing (ideas, bugs, patches), a source code repos will be one aspect of this. (I personally love to know if things I am hoping for have a chance of becoming real some time in the near futures.) Another possibility - and this is also one possible way of approaching a project like x2go - is that Heinz and Alex state explicitly that priorities are different in the core development team and driving forward collaboration is not on the current agenda. This will also be OK!!! But if so, I think, it needs a statement on the x2go-dev list, so people around get informed. Greets, Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, dorfstr. 27, 24245 barmissen fon: +49 (4302) 281418, fax: +49 (4302) 281419 eMail-LeseSchreibStunde: wochentags 8h-10h mail: m.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Hey, even though I don't think anybody is violating the terms of the GPL, I'd say X2go is not a true open source project. What you are doing is more like commercial vendors develop software: A few guys develop a product, while the community has no insight at all and from time to time you publish a release and as a free bonus you give a way the sources as well. You could also publish it under some commercial license - it wouldn't matter. It is nice that you use the GPL, that makes it LEGALLY possible to contribute to your product, but technically it is impossible. The community has no effective way to actively take part in the development. Are there any reasons why you don't want others to contribute with their ideas, bug fixes etc.? There are dozens of people outside who want to help you, you are short on time, but somehow it seems you don't want help. Making a source code repository public is less than 2 minutes work If you are not already under version control, you should take 5 minutes and you will never regret it, because it will save you hours later. Give me a shout if you need help with this. After all, it is of course your very own decision, but from my own open source experience I can only recommend you to do it as soon as possible. Development depends on TWO people - the number of users, bug reports, feature requests will exponentially grow - and the amount of work will grow. Your resources are static - this means, it will take a lot longer until a new feature is implemented or a bug is fixed. As people are impatient, they will start to help themselves, make a fork X2go Next Generation and it will be out of your control. So, be smart, honor the community's effort, use it, coordinate, decide about what code to accept and what to refuse, what features to integrate into the core project, publically represent the project and control it's direction. These are my personal thoughts on this - I wish you that you will find a wise and satisfying way how to go on. Thanks a lot for the excellent work you have already done! Jörg Am Donnerstag, den 15.07.2010, 20:55 +0200 schrieb Heinz-M. Graesing: Am 15.07.2010 11:55, schrieb Mike Gabriel: Hi there, On Do 15 Jul 2010 03:15:13 CEST Gerry Reno wrote: Another possibility - and this is also one possible way of approaching a project like x2go - is that Heinz and Alex state explicitly that priorities are different in the core development team and driving forward collaboration is not on the current agenda. This will also be OK!!! But if so, I think, it needs a statement on the x2go-dev list, so people around get informed. Hello, The SourceCode of x2go is published on the same place as the binary packages. For example x2goclient: http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/pool-lenny/x2goclient/x2goclient_3.01-5.tar.gz You can browse the repository just with your favorite Browser: http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/pool-lenny/ As you'll see there is a source tar.gz for every version. There are also the needed packages of the nx libs. For example nxcomp: http://x2go.obviously-nice.de/deb/pool-lenny/nxcomp/ As the gpl want's the code stored where you can find the software, I think this way of publishing the code should be conform to the rules. Some of the packages have reached an age above 3 years... The URL you have used was printed quoted an announcement. It will be used in future. At the moment we really use our limited time to get some of your ideas and found bugs inside the new release. After the new version is out, I wan't to invite our list members (and anybody intersted) to a irc session to talk about the future. Regards, Heinz ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
On Do 15 Jul 2010 22:48:32 CEST Joerg Sawatzki wrote: Hey, even though I don't think anybody is violating the terms of the GPL, I'd say X2go is not a true open source project. What you are doing is more like commercial vendors develop software: A few guys develop a product, while the community has no insight at all and from time to time you publish a release and as a free bonus you give a way the sources as well. You could also publish it under some commercial license - it wouldn't matter. It is nice that you use the GPL, that makes it LEGALLY possible to contribute to your product, but technically it is impossible. The community has no effective way to actively take part in the development. Are there any reasons why you don't want others to contribute with their ideas, bug fixes etc.? There are dozens of people outside who want to help you, you are short on time, but somehow it seems you don't want help. Making a source code repository public is less than 2 minutes work If you are not already under version control, you should take 5 minutes and you will never regret it, because it will save you hours later. Give me a shout if you need help with this. After all, it is of course your very own decision, but from my own open source experience I can only recommend you to do it as soon as possible. Development depends on TWO people - the number of users, bug reports, feature requests will exponentially grow - and the amount of work will grow. Your resources are static - this means, it will take a lot longer until a new feature is implemented or a bug is fixed. As people are impatient, they will start to help themselves, make a fork X2go Next Generation and it will be out of your control. So, be smart, honor the community's effort, use it, coordinate, decide about what code to accept and what to refuse, what features to integrate into the core project, publically represent the project and control it's direction. These are my personal thoughts on this - I wish you that you will find a wise and satisfying way how to go on. Thanks a lot for the excellent work you have already done! Jörg Jörg, thanks for pointing this out. I fully agree with your statement. Best, Mike -- DAS-NETZWERKTEAM mike gabriel, dorfstr. 27, 24245 barmissen fon: +49 (4302) 281418, fax: +49 (4302) 281419 eMail-LeseSchreibStunde: wochentags 8h-10h mail: m.gabr...@das-netzwerkteam.de, http://das-netzwerkteam.de freeBusy: https://mail.das-netzwerkteam.de/freebusy/m.gabriel%40das-netzwerkteam.de.xfb ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
Re: [X2go-dev] source code repository
Heinz Thank you for making the code available. As a long term Linux "open Core" developer I find the tirade directed at the X2go team excessive! We had made a commitment to Open our own product However when you have a large scope in our case 500 apps (Coming to the end of a 3yr that has stretched to 10 yr development) the last thing you need is all the "would be better if youtype arguments" by people who think they know "The right way!" As software developers you need to focus on delivering your concept to enable completion and income generation. Making the code available for extension is another development cycle. with costs. This tirade confirms our intention to only release a Gratis (Compiled) package. We should all respect the valuable contribution being made. Keep up the very valuable work to plug a large hole in the open core platform. Regards -- Ron Skeoch MD, Muli Management P/L. Project Risk, Accounts Process Management. www.muli.com.au ___ X2go-dev mailing list X2go-dev@lists.berlios.de https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/x2go-dev
