Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
Sorry to beat the dead horse, but I've just found perhaps the only written proof that OpenSolaris is supportable. For those of you who deny that this is an issue, its existence as a supported OS has been recently erased from every other place I've seen on the Oracle sites. Everyone please grab a copy of this before they silently delete it and claim that it never existed. I'm buying a contract right now. I may just take back every mean thing I ever said about Oracle. http://www.sun.com/servicelist/ss/lgscaledcsupprt-us-eng-20091001.pdf On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:23 PM, Erik Trimble erik.trim...@sun.com wrote: On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 20:52 -0500, Thomas Burgess wrote: There may be some things we choose not to open source going forward, similar to how MySQL manages certain value-add[s] at the top of the stack, Roberts said. It's important to understand the plan now is to deliver value again out of our IP investment, while at the same time measuring that with continuing to deliver OpenSolaris in the open. This will be a balancing act, one that we'll get right sometimes, but may not always. - From the feedback data I've seen customers dislike this type of licensing model most. Dan may or may not be reading this, but I'd strongly discourage this approach. Without knowing more I don't know what alternative I could recommend though.. (Too bad I missed that irc meeting..) ./C I may be wrong, but isn't this already what they do? I mean, there is a bunch of proprietary stuff in solaris that didn't make it into opensolaris. I thought this was how they did things anyways, or am i misunderstanding something. Not quite. The stuff that didn't make it from Solaris Nevada into OpenSolaris was pretty much everything that /couldn't/ be open-sourced, or was being EOL'd in any case. We didn't really hold anything back there. The better analogy is what Tim Cook pointed out, which is the version of OpenSolaris that runs on the 7000-series storage devices. There's some stuff on there that isn't going to be putback into the OpenSolaris repos. I don't know, and I certainly can't speak for the project, but I suspect the type of enhancements which won't make it out into the OpenSolaris repos are indeed ones like we ship with the 7000-series hardware. That is, I doubt that you will be able to get an OpenSolaris with Oracle Improvements software distro/package - the proprietary stuff will only be used as part of a package bundle, since Oracle is big on one-stop-integrated-solution things. -- Erik Trimble Java System Support Mailstop: usca22-123 Phone: x17195 Santa Clara, CA Timezone: US/Pacific (GMT-0800) ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.comwrote: Sorry to beat the dead horse, but I've just found perhaps the only written proof that OpenSolaris is supportable. For those of you who deny that this is an issue, its existence as a supported OS has been recently erased from every other place I've seen on the Oracle sites. Everyone please grab a copy of this before they silently delete it and claim that it never existed. I'm buying a contract right now. I may just take back every mean thing I ever said about Oracle. http://www.sun.com/servicelist/ss/lgscaledcsupprt-us-eng-20091001.pdf Erased from every site? Assuming when I pointed out several links the first go round wasn't enough, how bout directly on the opensolaris page itself? http://www.opensolaris.com/learn/features/availability/ • Highly available open source based solutions ready to deploy on OpenSolaris with *full production support from Sun. * OpenSolaris enables developers to develop, debug, and globally deploy applications faster, with built-in innovative features and with *full production support from Sun.* * * *Full production level support Both Standard and Premium support offerings are available for deployment of Open HA Cluster 2009.06 with OpenSolaris 2009.06 with following configurations: * etc. etc. etc. So do you get paid directly by IBM then, or is it more of a consultant type role? --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
Wow, they actually did the right thing in the end. This is fantastic. I'm all too happy to eat as much crow as you have to offer. I wonder when (if?) they'll bring back the ability to purchase OpenSolaris subscriptions online.. I'm actually so happy right now that I even appreciate Tim's clueless would-be cynicisms :) On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Tim Cook t...@cook.ms wrote: On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 7:11 AM, Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry to beat the dead horse, but I've just found perhaps the only written proof that OpenSolaris is supportable. For those of you who deny that this is an issue, its existence as a supported OS has been recently erased from every other place I've seen on the Oracle sites. Everyone please grab a copy of this before they silently delete it and claim that it never existed. I'm buying a contract right now. I may just take back every mean thing I ever said about Oracle. http://www.sun.com/servicelist/ss/lgscaledcsupprt-us-eng-20091001.pdf Erased from every site? Assuming when I pointed out several links the first go round wasn't enough, how bout directly on the opensolaris page itself? http://www.opensolaris.com/learn/features/availability/ • Highly available open source based solutions ready to deploy on OpenSolaris with full production support from Sun. OpenSolaris enables developers to develop, debug, and globally deploy applications faster, with built-in innovative features and with full production support from Sun. Full production level support Both Standard and Premium support offerings are available for deployment of Open HA Cluster 2009.06 with OpenSolaris 2009.06 with following configurations: etc. etc. etc. So do you get paid directly by IBM then, or is it more of a consultant type role? --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On 02/24/10 12:04 PM, Marc Nicholas wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Troy Campbell troy.campb...@fedex.com mailto:troy.campb...@fedex.com wrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/sun-oracle-community-continuity.html Half way down it says: Will Oracle support Java and OpenSolaris User Groups, as Sun has? Yes, Oracle will indeed enthusiastically support the Java User Groups, OpenSolaris User Groups, and other Sun-related user group communities (including the Java Champions), just as Oracle actively supports hundreds of product-oriented user groups today. We will be reaching out to these groups soon. Supporting doesn't necessarily mean continuing the Open Source projects! More info: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3867771/OpenSolaris-Alive-and-Well-at-Oracle.htm -marc ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
Troy Campbell wrote: On 02/24/10 12:04 PM, Marc Nicholas wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Troy Campbell troy.campb...@fedex.com mailto:troy.campb...@fedex.com wrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/sun-oracle-community-continuity.html Half way down it says: Will Oracle support Java and OpenSolaris User Groups, as Sun has? Yes, Oracle will indeed enthusiastically support the Java User Groups, OpenSolaris User Groups, and other Sun-related user group communities (including the Java Champions), just as Oracle actively supports hundreds of product-oriented user groups today. We will be reaching out to these groups soon. Supporting doesn't necessarily mean continuing the Open Source projects! More info: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3867771/OpenSolaris-Alive-and-Well-at-Oracle.htm There may be some things we choose not to open source going forward, similar to how MySQL manages certain value-add[s] at the top of the stack, Roberts said. It's important to understand the plan now is to deliver value again out of our IP investment, while at the same time measuring that with continuing to deliver OpenSolaris in the open. This will be a balancing act, one that we'll get right sometimes, but may not always. - From the feedback data I've seen customers dislike this type of licensing model most. Dan may or may not be reading this, but I'd strongly discourage this approach. Without knowing more I don't know what alternative I could recommend though.. (Too bad I missed that irc meeting..) ./C ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
2010/3/1 C. Bergström codest...@osunix.org Troy Campbell wrote: On 02/24/10 12:04 PM, Marc Nicholas wrote: On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Troy Campbell troy.campb...@fedex.com mailto:troy.campb...@fedex.com wrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/sun-oracle-community-continuity.html Half way down it says: Will Oracle support Java and OpenSolaris User Groups, as Sun has? Yes, Oracle will indeed enthusiastically support the Java User Groups, OpenSolaris User Groups, and other Sun-related user group communities (including the Java Champions), just as Oracle actively supports hundreds of product-oriented user groups today. We will be reaching out to these groups soon. Supporting doesn't necessarily mean continuing the Open Source projects! More info: http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3867771/OpenSolaris-Alive-and-Well-at-Oracle.htm There may be some things we choose not to open source going forward, similar to how MySQL manages certain value-add[s] at the top of the stack, Roberts said. It's important to understand the plan now is to deliver value again out of our IP investment, while at the same time measuring that with continuing to deliver OpenSolaris in the open. This will be a balancing act, one that we'll get right sometimes, but may not always. - From the feedback data I've seen customers dislike this type of licensing model most. Dan may or may not be reading this, but I'd strongly discourage this approach. Without knowing more I don't know what alternative I could recommend though.. (Too bad I missed that irc meeting..) ./C So don't buy the 7000 series. I find no issue with that model. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
There may be some things we choose not to open source going forward, similar to how MySQL manages certain value-add[s] at the top of the stack, Roberts said. It's important to understand the plan now is to deliver value again out of our IP investment, while at the same time measuring that with continuing to deliver OpenSolaris in the open. This will be a balancing act, one that we'll get right sometimes, but may not always. - From the feedback data I've seen customers dislike this type of licensing model most. Dan may or may not be reading this, but I'd strongly discourage this approach. Without knowing more I don't know what alternative I could recommend though.. (Too bad I missed that irc meeting..) ./C I may be wrong, but isn't this already what they do? I mean, there is a bunch of proprietary stuff in solaris that didn't make it into opensolaris. I thought this was how they did things anyways, or am i misunderstanding something. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
Thomas Burgess wrote: There may be some things we choose not to open source going forward, similar to how MySQL manages certain value-add[s] at the top of the stack, Roberts said. It's important to understand the plan now is to deliver value again out of our IP investment, while at the same time measuring that with continuing to deliver OpenSolaris in the open. This will be a balancing act, one that we'll get right sometimes, but may not always. - From the feedback data I've seen customers dislike this type of licensing model most. Dan may or may not be reading this, but I'd strongly discourage this approach. Without knowing more I don't know what alternative I could recommend though.. (Too bad I missed that irc meeting..) ./C I may be wrong, but isn't this already what they do? I mean, there is a bunch of proprietary stuff in solaris that didn't make it into opensolaris. I thought this was how they did things anyways, or am i misunderstanding something. Not exactly.. From my understanding.. (and I put a lot of time removing the proprietary stuff) is that for OpenSolaris the closed parts simply weren't available under and open source license. example.. tail/cli - Probably from 20+ years ago and it's exact origins may not be all known libc - The wide character support in libc from IBM, who isn't exactly open source friendly drivers - I didn't look into specific things with drivers and just never used them. C++ runtime/compilers - no comment :) With regards to the 7000 series or other appliances which may bring the trolls further... Personally, I consider that an appliance and not OpenSolaris proper.. I don't know where I draw the line, but I'd be disappointed if zfs didn't have all the full features in OpenSolaris, but also surprised if the landscape and management interfaces were made open source. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 20:52 -0500, Thomas Burgess wrote: There may be some things we choose not to open source going forward, similar to how MySQL manages certain value-add[s] at the top of the stack, Roberts said. It's important to understand the plan now is to deliver value again out of our IP investment, while at the same time measuring that with continuing to deliver OpenSolaris in the open. This will be a balancing act, one that we'll get right sometimes, but may not always. - From the feedback data I've seen customers dislike this type of licensing model most. Dan may or may not be reading this, but I'd strongly discourage this approach. Without knowing more I don't know what alternative I could recommend though.. (Too bad I missed that irc meeting..) ./C I may be wrong, but isn't this already what they do? I mean, there is a bunch of proprietary stuff in solaris that didn't make it into opensolaris. I thought this was how they did things anyways, or am i misunderstanding something. Not quite. The stuff that didn't make it from Solaris Nevada into OpenSolaris was pretty much everything that /couldn't/ be open-sourced, or was being EOL'd in any case. We didn't really hold anything back there. The better analogy is what Tim Cook pointed out, which is the version of OpenSolaris that runs on the 7000-series storage devices. There's some stuff on there that isn't going to be putback into the OpenSolaris repos. I don't know, and I certainly can't speak for the project, but I suspect the type of enhancements which won't make it out into the OpenSolaris repos are indeed ones like we ship with the 7000-series hardware. That is, I doubt that you will be able to get an OpenSolaris with Oracle Improvements software distro/package - the proprietary stuff will only be used as part of a package bundle, since Oracle is big on one-stop-integrated-solution things. -- Erik Trimble Java System Support Mailstop: usca22-123 Phone: x17195 Santa Clara, CA Timezone: US/Pacific (GMT-0800) ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
perhaps this helps: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/Oracle-Explains-Unclear-Message-About-OpenSolaris-444787/ Michael On 02/24/10 20:02, Troy Campbell wrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/sun-oracle-community-continuity.html Half way down it says: Will Oracle support Java and OpenSolaris User Groups, as Sun has? ... -- Michael Schusterhttp://blogs.sun.com/recursion Recursion, n.: see 'Recursion' ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Michael Schuster michael.schus...@sun.com wrote: perhaps this helps: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/Oracle-Explains-Unclear-Message-About-OpenSolaris-444787/ Not really. It doesn't explain that the page in question was an explanation of how the OpenSolaris support model has worked for the past 18 months. The fact that people interpreted an unchanged 18-month old support policy (defined well before the acquisition was even mooted) as the death of the OpenSolaris project shows how crazy the world can get. I notice that the support page seems to have changed, though. In that it now says the GA period is until the next release, rather than the originally defined arbitrary 6-month timer. (You can still see the 6-month timer in the support periods for 2008.05 and 2008.11, though - notice that both of those left the GA phase before the next release happened.) Whether Oracle make changes in the future remains to be seen. I would expect them to (you can't turn around a loss-making acquisition into a profitable subsidiary without making changes). In terms of OpenSolaris, the word is that a position statement is due shortly. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
It's a kind gesture to say it'll continue to exist and all, but without commercial support from the manufacturer, it's relegated to hobbyist curiosity status for us. If I even mentioned using an unsupported operating system to the higherups here, it'd be considered absurd. I like free stuff to fool around with in my copious spare time as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong, but that's not the issue. For my company, no support contract equals 'Death of OpenSolaris.' On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 4:29 AM, Peter Tribble peter.trib...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 8:56 AM, Michael Schuster michael.schus...@sun.com wrote: perhaps this helps: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/Oracle-Explains-Unclear-Message-About-OpenSolaris-444787/ Not really. It doesn't explain that the page in question was an explanation of how the OpenSolaris support model has worked for the past 18 months. The fact that people interpreted an unchanged 18-month old support policy (defined well before the acquisition was even mooted) as the death of the OpenSolaris project shows how crazy the world can get. I notice that the support page seems to have changed, though. In that it now says the GA period is until the next release, rather than the originally defined arbitrary 6-month timer. (You can still see the 6-month timer in the support periods for 2008.05 and 2008.11, though - notice that both of those left the GA phase before the next release happened.) Whether Oracle make changes in the future remains to be seen. I would expect them to (you can't turn around a loss-making acquisition into a profitable subsidiary without making changes). In terms of OpenSolaris, the word is that a position statement is due shortly. -- -Peter Tribble http://www.petertribble.co.uk/ - http://ptribble.blogspot.com/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On Feb 25, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Giovanni Tirloni gtirl...@sysdroid.com wrote: On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:47 AM, Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.com wrote: It's a kind gesture to say it'll continue to exist and all, but without commercial support from the manufacturer, it's relegated to hobbyist curiosity status for us. If I even mentioned using an unsupported operating system to the higherups here, it'd be considered absurd. I like free stuff to fool around with in my copious spare time as much as the next guy, don't get me wrong, but that's not the issue. For my company, no support contract equals 'Death of OpenSolaris.' OpenSolaris is not dying just because there is no support contract available for it, yet. Last time I looked Red Hat didn't offer support contracts for Fedora and that project is doing quite well. Difference here is Redhat doesn't claim Fedora as a production OS. While CentOS is a derivative of RHEL and also comes with no support contracts as it just recompiles RHEL source one gets the inherited binary support through this and technical support through the community. OpenSolaris not being as transparent and more leading edge doesn't get the stability of binary support that Solaris has and the community is always playing catch-up on the technical details. Which make it about as suitable for production use as Fedora. The commercial support contracts attempted to bridge the gap between the lack of knowledge due to the newness and the binary stability with patches. Without it OS is no longer really production quality. A little scattered in my reasoning but I think I get the main idea across. -Ross ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Troy Campbell troy.campb...@fedex.comwrote: http://www.oracle.com/technology/community/sun-oracle-community-continuity.html Half way down it says: Will Oracle support Java and OpenSolaris User Groups, as Sun has? Yes, Oracle will indeed enthusiastically support the Java User Groups, OpenSolaris User Groups, and other Sun-related user group communities (including the Java Champions), just as Oracle actively supports hundreds of product-oriented user groups today. We will be reaching out to these groups soon. Supporting doesn't necessarily mean continuing the Open Source projects! -marc ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
2010/2/22 Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de: You (Jacob Ritorto) wrote: FWIW, I suspect that this situation does not warrant a Wait and See response. We're being badly mistreated here and it's probably too late to do anything about it. Probably the only chance to quell this poor stewardship is to get big and loud right away. Then we can see if Oracle actually respects the notion of community. Badly mistreated here? Bad words, you're using, please change them! And, if you have a problem, escalate with your Sales-Rep! Of course I will escalate with my sales rep, buy sorry, Matthias, I won't condone having the carpet yanked out from under me and my business while putting on a happy face in the forums. This has to be addressed in public. If the word here offends you, please take it to mean as a consumer group. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.comwrote: 2010/2/22 Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de: You (Jacob Ritorto) wrote: FWIW, I suspect that this situation does not warrant a Wait and See response. We're being badly mistreated here and it's probably too late to do anything about it. Probably the only chance to quell this poor stewardship is to get big and loud right away. Then we can see if Oracle actually respects the notion of community. Badly mistreated here? Bad words, you're using, please change them! And, if you have a problem, escalate with your Sales-Rep! Of course I will escalate with my sales rep, buy sorry, Matthias, I won't condone having the carpet yanked out from under me and my business while putting on a happy face in the forums. This has to be addressed in public. If the word here offends you, please take it to mean as a consumer group. You haven't had anything yanked out from under you. You found an end-of-service-life page which is fairly standard practice, then decided to freak out about it. http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/lifecycle.xml The reason there's an end of service page is because Oracle isn't going to be supporting 2009.06 for 30 years. I don't see how that lead you to the conclusion they're ending the opensolaris project, but that is one hell of a conclusion to jump to. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
I'm not sure how there is mistreatment when known that Solaris 10 is the current production-grade product and OpenSolaris, for all intents and purposes, a beta product that is currently under active development. I was actually surprised when SUN provided a level of support for OpenSolaris above and beyond bug reporting and resolution. The fact that OpenSolaris has a major release every 6+ months does not, in my opinion, say this is production ready but provides a major point where significant user acceptance testing on features and bugs can be completed. This is quite different than the development repository which can and does contain variable bits. As far as the EOSL schedule goes, it is clearly a non-production schedule. Opposite to this model is Solaris 10's support... where the entire OS since GA date is supported. Could you imagine if individual Solaris 10 Updates had an EOSL schedule like OpenSolaris? I suspect that when OpenSolaris gets to the point of being considered a production-grade product, the GA date release onward will be supported like Solaris 10 is today. Of course, this is dependent on Oracle's decisions. Again, all this is just my opinion... take it for what it is. On 02/22/10 11:12 AM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: 2010/2/22 Matthias Pfütznermatth...@pfuetzner.de: You (Jacob Ritorto) wrote: FWIW, I suspect that this situation does not warrant a Wait and See response. We're being badly mistreated here and it's probably too late to do anything about it. Probably the only chance to quell this poor stewardship is to get big and loud right away. Then we can see if Oracle actually respects the notion of community. Badly mistreated here? Bad words, you're using, please change them! And, if you have a problem, escalate with your Sales-Rep! Of course I will escalate with my sales rep, buy sorry, Matthias, I won't condone having the carpet yanked out from under me and my business while putting on a happy face in the forums. This has to be addressed in public. If the word here offends you, please take it to mean as a consumer group. ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.comwrote: Since it seems you have absolutely no grasp of what's happening here, Coming from the guy proclaiming the sky is falling without actually having ANY official statement whatsoever to back up that train of thought. perhaps it would be best for you to continue to sit idly by and let this happen. Thanks helping out with the crude characterisations though. Idly let what happen? The unconfirmed death of opensolaris that you've certified for us all without any actual proof? Do you understand that the OpenSolaris page has a sunset in it and the Solaris page doesn't? I understand previous versions of every piece of software Oracle sells have Sunset pages, yes. If you read the page I sent you, it clearly states that every release of Opensolaris gets 5 years of support from GA. That doesn't mean they aren't releasing another version. That doesn't mean they're ending the opensolaris project. That doesn't mean they are no longer selling support for it. Had you actually read the link I posted, you'd have figured that out. Sun provides contractual support on the OpenSolaris OS for up to five years from the product's first General Availability (GA) date as describedhttp://www.sun.com/service/eosl/eosl_opensolaris.html. OpenSolaris Package Updates are released approximately every 6 months. OpenSolaris Subscriptions entitle customers during the term of the Customer's Subscription contract to receive support on their current version of OpenSolaris, as well as receive individual Package Updates and OpenSolaris Support Repository Package Updates when made commercially available by Sun. Sun may require a Customer to download and install Package Updates or OpenSolaris OS Updates that have been released since Customer's previous installation of OpenSolaris, particularly when fixes have already been Have you spent enough (any) time trying to renew your contracts only to see that all mentions of OpenSolaris have been deleted from the support pages over the last few days? Can you tell me which Oracle rep you've spoken to who confirmed the cancellation of Opensolaris? It's funny, nobody I've talked to seems to have any idea what you're talking about. So please, a name would be wonderful so I can direct my inquiry to this as-of-yet unnamed source. This, specifically, is what has been yanked out from under me and my company. This represents years of my and my team's effort and investment. Again, without some sort of official word, nothing has changed... It says right here those contracts are for both solaris AND opensolaris. http://www.sun.com/service/subscriptions/index.jsp Click Sun System Service Planshttp://www.sun.com/service/serviceplans/sunspectrum/index.jsp : http://www.sun.com/service/serviceplans/sunspectrum/index.jsp Sun System Service Plans for Solaris Sun System Service Plans for the Solaris Operating System provide integrated hardware and* Solaris OS (or OpenSolaris OS)* support service coverage to help keep your systems running smoothly. This single price, complete system approach is ideal for companies running Solaris on Sun hardware. But thank you for the scare chicken little. --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
On 02/22/10 09:52 PM, Tim Cook wrote: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.com mailto:jacob.rito...@gmail.com wrote: Since it seems you have absolutely no grasp of what's happening here, Coming from the guy proclaiming the sky is falling without actually having ANY official statement whatsoever to back up that train of thought. perhaps it would be best for you to continue to sit idly by and let this happen. Thanks helping out with the crude characterisations though. Idly let what happen? The unconfirmed death of opensolaris that you've certified for us all without any actual proof? Well - the lack of support subscriptions *is* a death sentence for OpenSolaris in many companies and I believe that this is what the OP complained about. Do you understand that the OpenSolaris page has a sunset in it and the Solaris page doesn't? I understand previous versions of every piece of software Oracle sells have Sunset pages, yes. If you read the page I sent you, it clearly states that every release of Opensolaris gets 5 years of support from GA. That doesn't mean they aren't releasing another version. That doesn't mean they're ending the opensolaris project. That doesn't mean they are no longer selling support for it. Had you actually read the link I posted, you'd have figured that out. Sun provides contractual support on the OpenSolaris OS for up to five years from the product's first General Availability (GA) date as described http://www.sun.com/service/eosl/eosl_opensolaris.html. OpenSolaris Package Updates are released approximately every 6 months. OpenSolaris Subscriptions entitle customers during the term of the Customer's Subscription contract to receive support on their current version of OpenSolaris, as well as receive individual Package Updates and OpenSolaris Support Repository Package Updates when made commercially available by Sun. Sun may require a Customer to download and install Package Updates or OpenSolaris OS Updates that have been released since Customer's previous installation of OpenSolaris, particularly when fixes have already been Have you spent enough (any) time trying to renew your contracts only to see that all mentions of OpenSolaris have been deleted from the support pages over the last few days? Can you tell me which Oracle rep you've spoken to who confirmed the cancellation of Opensolaris? It's funny, nobody I've talked to seems to have any idea what you're talking about. So please, a name would be wonderful so I can direct my inquiry to this as-of-yet unnamed source. I have spoken to our local Oracle sales office last week because I wanted to purchase a new OpenSolaris support contract - I was informed that this was no longer possible and that Oracle is unable to provide paid support for OpenSolaris at this time. This, specifically, is what has been yanked out from under me and my company. This represents years of my and my team's effort and investment. Again, without some sort of official word, nothing has changed... I take the official Oracle website to be rather ... official ? Lets recap, shall we ? a) Almost every trace of OpenSolaris Support subscriptions vanished from the official website within the last 14 days. b) An Oracle sales rep informed me personally last week that I could no longer purchase support subscriptions for OpenSolaris. Please, do me a favor and call your local Oracle rep and ask for an Opensolaris Support subscription quote and let us know how it goes ... It says right here those contracts are for both solaris AND opensolaris. http://www.sun.com/service/subscriptions/index.jsp Click Sun System Service Plans http://www.sun.com/service/serviceplans/sunspectrum/index.jsp: http://www.sun.com/service/serviceplans/sunspectrum/index.jsp Sun System Service Plans for Solaris Sun System Service Plans for the Solaris Operating System provide integrated hardware and* Solaris OS (or OpenSolaris OS)* support service coverage to help keep your systems running smoothly. This single price, complete system approach is ideal for companies running Solaris on Sun hardware. Sun System Service Plans != (Open)Solaris Support subscriptions But thank you for the scare chicken little. --Tim -- Med venlig hilsen / Best Regards Henrik Johansen hen...@scannet.dk Tlf. 75 53 35 00 ScanNet Group A/S ScanNet ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris (Please end this now)
From what I can gleen from the new sections of the relevant website, it appears that you /can/ get OpenSolaris support, provided you have SUN hardware and a System Service plan. The traditional I want OS Support for running Solaris on my non-Sun hardware plan doesn't include OpenSolaris. I'd re-ask your sales rep to check that this is so (that is, if buying a Solaris Subscriiption will cover both S10 OpenSolaris), just to be sure. They may not understand that both are now provided under the same product plan (i.e. no separate plan for OS vs S10); then again... All that said, this discussion is MARKETING, and as such, belongs on another list (such as opensolaris-discuss or better yet, directly with Oracle). Please, take if off this list, as there's no good answer to be found here. -- Erik Trimble Java System Support Mailstop: usca22-123 Phone: x17195 Santa Clara, CA ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.com Cc: matth...@pfuetzner.de, zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org, indiana-disc...@opensolaris.org Gesendet: 22.2.'10, 21:21 On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Tim Cook t...@cook.ms wrote: On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.com wrote: 2010/2/22 Matthias Pfützner matth...@pfuetzner.de: You (Jacob Ritorto) wrote: FWIW, I suspect that this situation does not warrant a Wait and See response. We're being badly mistreated here and it's probably too late to do anything about it. Probably the only chance to quell this poor stewardship is to get big and loud right away. Then we can see if Oracle actually respects the notion of community. Badly mistreated here? Bad words, you're using, please change them! And, if you have a problem, escalate with your Sales-Rep! Of course I will escalate with my sales rep, buy sorry, Matthias, I won't condone having the carpet yanked out from under me and my business while putting on a happy face in the forums. This has to be addressed in public. If the word here offends you, please take it to mean as a consumer group. You haven't had anything yanked out from under you. You found an end-of-service-life page which is fairly standard practice, then decided to freak out about it. http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/lifecycle.xml The reason there's an end of service page is because Oracle isn't going to be supporting 2009.06 for 30 years. I don't see how that lead you to the conclusion they're ending the opensolaris project, but that is one hell of a conclusion to jump to. --Tim Since it seems you have absolutely no grasp of what's happening here, perhaps it would be best for you to continue to sit idly by and let this happen. Thanks helping out with the crude characterisations though. Do you understand that the OpenSolaris page has a sunset in it and the Solaris page doesn't? Have you spent enough (any) time trying to renew your contracts only to see that all mentions of OpenSolaris have been deleted from the support pages over the last few days? This, specifically, is what has been yanked out from under me and my company. This represents years of my and my team's effort and investment. And, honestly, that's not something strange, is it? Two facts: 1.) Solaris is a product, maintained and produced 100% by Sun! 2.) OpenSolaris is a community effort, and Sun's been providing the initial version of it, as well as many development resources. Still, OSOL has never been a 100% maintained and produced product of Sun! So, yes, Sun did provide support contracts for OSOL, based on a 6-month basis (as that's the cycle for new versions of OSOL). Now, the CiC (change in control) and the cycle of the next version of OSOL (did you notice, that it might be 2010.03, and not 2010.02, aka 7 months?) do collide, and you are drawing the conclusion, that the internal process of checking ALL offers (and be sure, as I stated, the OSOL support contracts did not generate a margin!) and STANDARDIZING those offers entitles you to state, that support is cancled? Boy, there are way more important contracts to check then the OSOL support offerings. And I assume, ou also want to see Sun flourishing and providing an operative income to Oracle's business. Because, if that will not happen, many other things might happen... And support contracts for OSOL might then be so unimportant, that nobody might ever remember, that such things even existed once... There are way more changes currently, then you seem to notice. NONE of those entitle you to state, that there will NEVER EVER be support for OSOL. Give the folks at Oracle some time to perform a thorough and intensive check of all of Sun's former offerings, and also give them the time to figure, what to do with all those things! And, yes, make sure, that your voice is heard INSIDE Oracle. But, please, do not try to boil the ocean now by claiming end of support... And, if that should leave you unsupported in about two to three months time, then you could start trying to state, that there might not be a commercial support offer from Oracle for OpenSolaris... There the still is the possibility to create your own company which coukd offer support for OSOL, just like RedHat and Novell are doing with Linux. And, yes, Nexenta currenly already does that, so, there are already options out there! Again: I have no insight into what's going on inside Oracle w.r.t. the topics discussed here! My only commen is: Try to relax a bit, and please calm down! Matthias ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Jacob Ritorto jacob.rito...@gmail.com Cc: zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org, indiana-disc...@opensolaris.org Gesendet: 22.2.'10, 21:46 On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Justin Lee Ewing jlew...@jrleindustries.com wrote: I'm not sure how there is mistreatment when known that Solaris 10 is the current production-grade product and OpenSolaris, for all intents and purposes, a beta product that is currently under active development. I was actually surprised when SUN provided a level of support for OpenSolaris above and beyond bug reporting and resolution. So be it, but the point is that they did offer and push it, guaranteeing the same level of support as Solaris, etc. I (perhaps foolishly) believed it and invested heavily in it. For them to go back on this is an affront to the idea of being a reliable, trusted provider. I'd expect this sort of behaviour from some of the lesser technology companies, but not from Sun and Oracle. This is what's supposed to set them apart. I think, we all got your point, and do agree, that there SEEMS to be a regression. But, as stated, give Oracle a bit of time, to simply CHECK each and every offering, that Sun had! Do you know, for example, that Oracle does offer LIVETIME support for products? Something, that Sun never did? So, let's relax, sit down, and drink a cup of good tea, and let's wait and see... And possibly talk about this topic in two months time... And while I respect your opinion that Solaris 10 is a current production-grade product, to me, the reality is that it's many versions behind in its huge number of bundled services and it's a lot of work to trim down. Still, it's a FACT, that S10 is the product, and OSOL is a community effort, and provides previee snapshots twice a year... Its footprint is enormous compared to OpenSoalris and its not nearly as modern. I've worked on it since before it was called Solaris, so I've lived with this for decades now. Same here, SunOS 3.5 on a Sun 3/50... To keep up with these fresh (albeit comparatively crude) Linux variants, this paradigm had to change and OpenSolaris was the solution. Thin and modern but still tremendously more solid than the others. That's essentially why we adopted it en masse. And as Solaris is that mature and around so long alrewady, please give the new owner the chance to get up to speed! And don't complain after less then 4 weeks about your perceived fate of OpenSolaris... That's all we're asking here... Again: I have to repeat: I have no insight whatsoever into the proceedings at Oracle around the topics discussed here Matthias ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
Matthias Pfützner wrote: (change in control) and the cycle of the next version of OSOL (did you notice, that it might be 2010.03, and not 2010.02, aka 7 months?) 9 months actually since 2009.06, and that change was mostly due to aligning with the Solaris 10 update release schedules so that the resources shared between the two (such as QA) wouldn't be overloaded trying to get both OpenSolaris 2010.12 and Solaris 10 10/09 finished up around the same time (or when many of them would be normally out for the end-of-year holidays). -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@sun.com Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] [indiana-discuss] future of OpenSolaris
Oops, sorry, right, 9 months... ;-) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Alan Coopersmith alan.coopersm...@sun.com Cc: jacob.rito...@gmail.com, zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org, indiana-disc...@opensolaris.org, t...@cook.ms Gesendet: 22.2.'10, 22:03 Matthias Pfützner wrote: (change in control) and the cycle of the next version of OSOL (did you notice, that it might be 2010.03, and not 2010.02, aka 7 months?) 9 months actually since 2009.06, and that change was mostly due to aligning with the Solaris 10 update release schedules so that the resources shared between the two (such as QA) wouldn't be overloaded trying to get both OpenSolaris 2010.12 and Solaris 10 10/09 finished up around the same time (or when many of them would be normally out for the end-of-year holidays). -- -Alan Coopersmith- alan.coopersm...@sun.com Oracle Solaris Platform Engineering: X Window System ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
