[ActiveDir] upgrading from windows 2000 exchange 2000 to window2k3 exchange 2003

2005-03-07 Thread Sharif Naser
Hello experts, We need to upgrade our existing 2000 environment to windows 2003 environment. How can i do that smoothly without any hassle? At this moment, Im in process of taking one extra domain controller (has no role) from the existing active directory structure isolate it in a

[ActiveDir] Retiring user accounts

2005-03-07 Thread Tim Sutton
Title: Retiring user accounts Just out of interest, how do people go about retiring users' accounts when someone leaves? Has anyone got a set procedure or is it just a case of back up their PC / home drives, delete their account and redirect their emails to someone else? For Troup

[ActiveDir] Users leaving

2005-03-07 Thread Tim Sutton
Title: Users leaving Hey all! Over the next few weeks we've got quite a few users leaving but as we're only a small office we don't have a set procedure for what happens to their account, PCs and mail etc etc . I think I've just volunteered myself to right one! Has anyone got any good

RE: [ActiveDir] WINS

2005-03-07 Thread Dan DeStefano
Title: Re: [ActiveDir] WINS Did you just remove WINS or did you also disable NetBIOS on your network? Isnt it the case that as long as NetBIOS is enabled and being used on your network that you should also be using WINS as this will greatly reduce broadcasts and improve name-resolution,

RE: [ActiveDir] Users leaving

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Why are you changing the password for the account and then later deleting it? Isn't that redundant? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Sutton Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 7:17 AM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: [ActiveDir]

RE: [ActiveDir] Users leaving

2005-03-07 Thread Tim Sutton
Not if it's a user assigned one. I'm changing them to a password I know and it also means that any of his / her friends won't be tempted to use that account for things. For Troup Bywaters + Anders Tim Sutton T: +44 (0) 113 243 2241 F: +44 (0) 113 242 4024

RE: [ActiveDir] WINS

2005-03-07 Thread Van Noy, Glen
Title: Re: [ActiveDir] WINS We just removed WINS, about a year ago.We are in the process of testing the disabling of NETBIOS from our switches and have found a few hitches with that, not related to Exchange. I found this KB article

RE: [ActiveDir] WINS

2005-03-07 Thread Salandra, Justin A.
WINS will always be needed as long as Microsoft Products still utilize NetBIOS Names like Outlook and Network Printers. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Tock Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 12:56 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org

RE: [ActiveDir] WINS

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
To be fair, Exchange setup requires WINS. Without it, setup fails. Outside of that, Exchange requires shortname resolution, but the only answer to verify that you have shortname resolution is to use WINS/Netbios resolution. Can you run without it? Yep. Is it supported? Not currently.

RE: [ActiveDir] Users leaving

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Just curious. Seems that you're changing the password and then deleting the account. If you need to access that information using that account, I can understand. Just figured I'd check. Other than that, it seems like when you're done, you'll have an archive of the users mail and desktop

[ActiveDir] OU's listed

2005-03-07 Thread Stelley, Douglas
Is there a way to query Active Directory and return all OU's? perhaps a SQL query? I can use "dsquery ou" I suppose, but I'm writing a .net that can be a front end for our help desk in easing simple user management tasks. I have a hard coded version, but I'd like to have a query that will

[ActiveDir] KCC and Inter-site replication objects

2005-03-07 Thread Shawn Hayes
We have KCC and ISTG configured to automatically create site link connection objects. I am looking for information to explain the following situation: The server in our hub site that has most of the Inter-site replication objects defined to it goes down. At what point in time will the KCC /

RE: [ActiveDir] OU's listed

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
I haven't done it lately, but I would assume you can bind to the root and iterate the children looking for OU objects. You could also create a query that searches the domain for objectClass of organizationalUnit and then add each of the ones you find to the application nodes. An example ldap

RE: [ActiveDir] KCC and Inter-site replication objects

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
The KCC runs by default every 15 minutes, but there is another parameter that controls how long a DC has to be unavailable to be dropped from the topology. For intersite topology, the partner has to be non-responsive for 1 attempt and two hours. For intrasite topology, the partner has to be

RE: [ActiveDir] KCC and Inter-site replication objects

2005-03-07 Thread Shawn Hayes
Thanks Gil One more question: We are planning on upgrading (actually dcpromo-ing to demote and then reloading) the DC with most of the inter-site connection objects. I understand demoting the server will remove it from the AD configuration. Will KCC at this point pick a new DC a create new

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Personally? I like to think of AD as a GUI to Microsoft's implementation of LDAP. That simplifies a lot of things for me. However, there is more to it than that and the books you ordered should help in clarifying that. You don't need to know LDAP to make AD work, but it helps. It's a great

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
O'Reilly's Active Directory book is a good primer. That is the first AD book I read (it was first edition back then though). Once you have the basics down I would recommend moving into Active Directory Cookbook also by O'Reilly and Inside Active Directory, 2e from Addison-Wesley; both excellent

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
To get a basic understanding of what AD is and how it relates to LDAP, see But briefly, Active Directory is a multi-master directory service that is tightly integrated with the Windows security system. LDAP is a standardized protocol that defines how programs on a network can communicate with a

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
Hey now... Don't forget about Alistair. He did that first edition himself and did it well. :) The Cat Book rocks. Actually I should get royalties for that one too, I have made a bunch of people buy it and have bought and given away multiple copies myself. I still have my first copy though it is

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Didn't forget, just haven't heard of it. I will remember now though :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:11 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP Hey

RE: [ActiveDir] KCC and Inter-site replication objects

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
The dcpromo'd DC will recreate its view of the topology five minutes (by default) after it starts. AFAIK, the other DCs will still wait until the next scheduled time (up to 15 minutes) before re-evaluating the topology, but they will immdieately take into account the fact that the first DC was

RE: [ActiveDir] Renaming Accounts

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
I assume you're talking about this? http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=248793 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Mezzone Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:25 AM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: [ActiveDir] Renaming Accounts

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
Aww, man... How come my book isn't up there? -gil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:11 AM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP Hey now... Don't forget

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Kenny Mann
Ahh, thank you very much (both of you). Strange. Ad.org's site seems to noe be responding. Here's the story. As a personal hobby I run a a few domains. I used the Gentoo Virtual Hosts setup. I'm currently writing my own but that's besides the point. It uses MySQL as a database. I get curious and

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
The one that's out of print? http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0672315874/103-8355416- 0173405?_encoding=UTF8n=283155 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gil Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:19 PM To:

[ActiveDir] User Home Folder Mappings on 2K3 Servers

2005-03-07 Thread Ertug Gurhan
Guys, just wondering if anyone else has seen this before whereby, when a user logs into a 2K box, the home folder maps without issue, but when logging into a 2K3 box it generates the following error: 2K3 Domain,2K mixed Mode, all DC's 2K3. Only happens for a few select users, and I am

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Kenny Mann
Sorry, all three of you :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenny Mann Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:24 AM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP Ahh, thank you very much (both of you).

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Great way to do it. For what it's worth, anytime you're trying to decide between SQL-type DB's and LDAP, the usual differentiator is how you intend to use it. LDAP is highly-optimized for read access. SQL db's typically are more read/write (compared) optimized since you inject data into them

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Kern, Tom
joe wrote: O'Reilly's Active Directory book is a good primer. That is the first AD book I read (it was first edition back then though). Once you have the basics down I would recommend moving into Active Directory Cookbook also by O'Reilly and Inside Active Directory, 2e from Addison-Wesley;

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
Yeah, well there's that... But that doesn't mean it isn't *good* :) -gil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mulnick, Al Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:28 AM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
I recommend your book a lot as well, in fact there is at least one list member that has been trying to buy the darn thing based on my recommendation but can't find it anywhere I have pointed at a couple of resources, it was actually ordered from one resource (ebay) and the member got a note

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
Simple to think out You doing mostly reads of string data, go LDAP. You doing mostly writes go SQL. You want fast complicated adhoc queries, business rules, triggers, searching of binary data, etc, go SQL. To play with AD, you don't need to spin up a domain controller, go grab AD/AM and play

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Certainly didn't want to imply... Maybe it's time for the next book? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gil Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:37 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Potatoe/Potato sort of thing. It is LDAP and it is an upgrade path from legacy systems such as WINNT. How you use it plays a part. If you use it as a LDAP directory, then it *is* a LDAP directory right? If you use it as a WINNT 5.x domain, then it *is* a WINNT 5.x domain. To say it's a

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
Stella has been scrounging the dusty antiquarian bookshops in New York and London and has managed to snag a few copies. We'll have a handful of my books available at DEC. For some reason Pearson never wanted to do a 2nd edition. What a bunch of poopy-heads (according to my 4 year old). Yeah, it

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Myrick, Todd (NIH/CC/DNA)
One sorta word for you Gil... PDF Toddler -Original Message- From: Gil Kirkpatrick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:56 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP Stella has been scrounging the dusty antiquarian

RE: [ActiveDir] Renaming Accounts

2005-03-07 Thread Robert Mezzone
This works with Outlook 2003 and Exchange 2003. The article discuss' Exchange 5.5 and older versions of Outlook. Thanks. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mulnick, Al Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 12:18 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org

RE: [ActiveDir] KCC and Inter-site replication objects

2005-03-07 Thread Grillenmeier, Guido
that reflects my findings from other DC replacements as well, which is why I tend to move the connection objects to another DC (i.e. in a hub-site with multiple DCs) during the replacement of the first DC. The reason to do so is simply due to FRS and it's requirements to do a full VV-join when

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Kenny Mann
I'll probably want programmer side later, when I understand what I'm doing. BTW, someone posted this link: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsserver2003/adam/default.mspx Here is Microsoft's definition: Windows Server 2003 Active Directory Application Mode For organizations that require flexible

[ActiveDir] GPO Settings for Lab/Kiosk

2005-03-07 Thread Noah Eiger
Hello: Can someone point me to a doc detailing the GPO settings for locked down computer that might be in a lab or other public access location? Thanks. attachment: winmail.dat

[ActiveDir] Ad users and Computers

2005-03-07 Thread Christine Allen
Running AD 2000, I'm creating templates for user creation for the help desk. However, when they copy the template it does not copy all the field information like address. It copies city and state, but not street address. Does anyone know why it will copy come fields, but not all? -Christine

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Charlie Kaiser
If it's out of print, Gil should just make the PDF available free to list members online... :-) Unless of course, he's planning to actually DO those reprints and make some money off of them... G ** Charlie Kaiser MCSE, CCNA Systems Engineer Essex Credit / Brickwalk 510 595

RE: [ActiveDir] GPO Settings for Lab/Kiosk

2005-03-07 Thread Darren Mar-Elia
This doc is a good starting point: http://www.microsoft.com/technet/prodtechnol/windowsserver2003/technologies/management/csws2003.mspx It provides a set of settings for a variety of lockdown scenarios. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Noah EigerSent:

RE: [ActiveDir] Ad users and Computers

2005-03-07 Thread joe
Not all attributes are flagged in the schema for copy when ADUC dupes an account. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/adschema/ad schema/a_systemflags.asp Not sure why this flag is in searchFlags instead of systemFlags but there you go... It would follow that

RE: [ActiveDir] Ad users and Computers

2005-03-07 Thread Christine Allen
Thanks! -Original Message- From: joe [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 3:12 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Ad users and Computers Not all attributes are flagged in the schema for copy when ADUC dupes an account. See

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Hmm... Although based on the same technology, don't confuse ADAM with AD. ADAM is the lightweight version of AD technology. I.E. it's an LDAP server vs. an identification, authentication, and authorization infrastructure (aka special sauce ingredients). Al -Original Message- From:

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Kenny Mann
Ah, thank you for pointing that out. I did confused them. Kenny -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mulnick, Al Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:31 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP Hmm...

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
AD/AM is primarily just the LDAP directory part of AD. It doesn't do kerberos nor the NSPI stuff. So if you want to play say with Exchange you have to go to AD. If you want to kerberize authentications, you need AD. If you are simply playing with adding/removing/reading/querying data for users

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
Probably depends on his agreement with the publisher on whether he can do it or not. Gil may not own the rights to the book to do this even if he wants to. Personally I think he should update it and sell it. The first time around it was pretty early in the AD world without a huge number of

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
Yeah, I don't own the rights img desc=Picture of Satan on my shoulder cackling with glee/, but I might be able to get them. I'll have to look into it. -gil -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 2:22 PM To:

[ActiveDir] Changing Prompt user to change password before expiration notification

2005-03-07 Thread Olegario, Alan
Is it possible to change the text for the security setting Interactive logon: Prompt user to change password before expiration The reason were looking to do this is that we have a 3rd party password management application, and we still want to use the windows notification for password

RE: [ActiveDir] Changing Prompt user to change password before e xpiration notification

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
Wouldn't it make more sense to just turn that off and send them a notification via the third-party app? What's their recommendation? al -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Olegario, Alan Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 4:30 PM To:

RE: [ActiveDir] Changing Prompt user to change password before e xpiration notification

2005-03-07 Thread Olegario, Alan
What I'm told (InfoSec is checking on this) is that the application does not handle notification. I was thinking about just writing a script to check when the user's passwords will expire and then shoot them over an email but figured I'd try to see if there's any easy way to change the text

RE: [ActiveDir] Changing Prompt user to change password before expiration notification

2005-03-07 Thread joe
Not really for the normal admin. If you want to write code you could probably work on the gina and pull it off, again not very realistic, I personally wouldn't consider making gina modsfor that. The usual solution is to email people prior to their password expiring and having the directions

RE: [ActiveDir] Changing Prompt user to change password before e xpiration notification

2005-03-07 Thread Mulnick, Al
You might take a look at the platform SDK and see if there is anything in there about it. Be aware that if you have multiple desktops, there may be multiple places to make changes. I'd be more of a fan of writing a script to notify users of password expiration than I would of re-writing,

[ActiveDir]A bit OT: Creating Printers

2005-03-07 Thread Cothern Jeff D. Team EITC
Scenario: Windows 2000 clustered server. Mail on one node. File share and printer share on the other node. - Need the ability for the Desktop Technicians that install the physical printers to install them onto the server. - Printers are setup using static IPs and added to the

RE: [ActiveDir]A bit OT: Creating Printers

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
Doesn't the ability to install a printer mean they have the rights to install a device driver? I think that means they have to have local administrator rights. And if they have the ability to install a driver, they own the server anyway :) -gil From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL

RE: [ActiveDir] Ad users and Computers

2005-03-07 Thread Sakari Kouti
Hi Christine, My guess is that Microsoft accidentally flagged a wrong attribute to be copied when a user is copied. The Street attribute you see in ADUC is stored in the streetAddress attribute (which is an LDAP name), and that attribute is not copied. However, another attribute with an LDAP

RE: [ActiveDir] Ad users and Computers

2005-03-07 Thread Brian Desmond
If you use the schema management snap-in instead to do this, there's a cehckbox to copy the attribute. Perhaps a bit less dangerous than tinkering in adsiedit: Startrunregsvr32 schmmgmt.dll startrunschmmgmt.msc Browse down to the streetAddress attribute, there's a checkbox on the bottom of

RE: [ActiveDir]A bit OT: Creating Printers

2005-03-07 Thread Brian Desmond
You can use GP to differentiate who has rights to install a printer driver vs any other driver w/ 2003 at least (and maybe XP). But no way to create printers without admin on the server. --Brian Desmond [EMAIL PROTECTED] Payton on the web! www.wpcp.org v - 773.534.0034 x135 f -

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Rick Kingslan
The Cat Book rocks. Actually I should get royalties for that one too, I have made a bunch of people buy it Here we go again -rtk P.S :p -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of joe Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:11 AM To:

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Rick Kingslan
It's the best Nuts and bolts book on programming to AD that I've got on the shelf. Active Directory Programming by Gil Kirkpatrick -rtk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gil Kirkpatrick Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 11:19 AM To:

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Rick Kingslan
Oh, and mine's signed! Thanks again, Gil! :) -rtk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Kingslan Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 9:16 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP It's the best Nuts

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
Oh Kenny, something I intended to mention but forgot to... You mention your hobby of spinning up new domains, etc. By domain do you mean a new Windows NT Authentication Realm or Kerberos Realm or just a new LDAP Hierarchy? If the latter, AD/AM can be quite useful here as well since you can have

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread joe
What can I say... I didn't win the Lotto. :) It seems more and more like I am going to have to actually earn my first million. joe -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Kingslan Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 10:14 PM To:

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Gil Kirkpatrick
Ahh, my ego has been assuaged... :) You're welcome! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Rick Kingslan Sent: Mon 3/7/2005 8:25 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP Oh, and mine's signed! Thanks again, Gil!

RE: [ActiveDir] Active Directory and LDAP

2005-03-07 Thread Rick Kingslan
I'm glad to hear that it's finally dawned on you that you're more like the rest of us than you want to admit Actually have to EARN your first million Yeah. I suspect you're closer than I am. Yur killin' me, joe. ;o) -rtk -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: [ActiveDir] Renaming Accounts

2005-03-07 Thread joe
Yes that should work on O2K3. I don't believe the profile processes have changed much. joe -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Mezzone Sent: Monday, March 07, 2005 1:16 PM To: ActiveDir@mail.activedir.org Subject: RE: [ActiveDir]

[ActiveDir] LDAP dir syncproduct to AD

2005-03-07 Thread Nicolas Blank
Hi all Anyone ever have to choose between Simple Sync and Imanami Directory Transformation Manager ? I'm talking to a mainframe via LDAP going to AD and on paper Imanami looks the better choice. Anyone have any recommendations either way? I've seen simple sync mentioned at least once on this list