evdplancke;687991 Wrote:
Try the following: rip a reference cd twice to flac and mp3, give them a
recognizable name, put them in a playlistism and play it randomly with
shuffle. Try then to figure out for each song if it is mp3 or flac when
listening and then check by name if you are right.
evdplancke;687991 Wrote:
and after some learning time, I could recognize different signature of
the sound between 320 kbps mp3 and flac.
I don't think I even want to try that. Don't want to risk my ears
disappointing me. ;)
--
Soulkeeper
'Bug 17797: Updating wiki.slimdevices.com'
darrenyeats;687935 Wrote:
Double blind test results show people can hear that difference...I
believe I've seen this on hydrogenaudio.
Try the following: rip a reference cd twice to flac and mp3, give them
a recognizable name, put them in a playlistism and play it randomly
with shuffle. Try
evdplancke;688071 Wrote:
I was using the Touch with a mix of local flac files with their Spotify
premium equivalent version in one single playlist.
Note that not all 320kbps MP3s are equal. Some have said that Spotify
applies dynamic compression which, if true, would certainly affect the
aural
adamdea;688048 Wrote:
Perhaps the current personality inhabiting MCR would like to check out
Hydrogen audio where i am sure the information resides.
He can read there, but would have trouble posting. hydrogenaudio is
well moderated and almost every post MCR has made here would have been
trash
magiccarpetride;687901 Wrote:
Another audio myth: red book CDs somehow better sounding than 128 kbps
mp3. Where's the evidence to support such outlandish claims?
http://www.mediatechnics.com/cdaudio.htm
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-data-compression/
If one were to compare
rgro;688112 Wrote:
There was an article on the CNN website the other day about Neil Young
and his quest for hi-def music re. Apple.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/31/tech/web/neil-young-apple-high-def-music/index.html
According to the article (and I have no verification of this),
If you can't explain how it works, you can't say it doesn't.The
High-End Creed
--
ghostrider
ghostrider's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18959
View this thread:
Soulkeeper;687996 Wrote:
I don't think I even want to try that. Don't want to risk my ears
disappointing me. ;)
I agree. Spotify and BBC 3 HD sound quality is scarily good.
I thank darren's right that there is sound evidenced for 128kbps, bt
above that hm
IIRC I'm not sure there is
superbonham;688118 Wrote:
... overlapping posts ...
If you take a high-definition master recording at 96kHz/24 bit stereo
(~ 4,600 kbit/s) and compare it with a 256 kbit/s mp3 (which you might
consider industry-standard these days) this actually holds true (at
least approximately).
But
musicom;688106 Wrote:
http://www.mediatechnics.com/cdaudio.htm
http://www.uaudio.com/blog/understanding-audio-data-compression/
If one were to compare based on the data rate alone, CD beats mp3 as it
has a data rate of 141 kbps vs 128 k for the mp3. But the most
important limitation
Bytec;687992 Wrote:
I use foobar2000 ABX Comparator for such purposes.
http://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_abx
I was using the Touch with a mix of local flac files with their Spotify
premium equivalent version in one single playlist.
--
evdplancke
musicom;688106 Wrote:
If one were to compare based on the data rate alone, CD beats mp3 as it
has a data rate of 141 kbps vs 128 k for the mp3.
Just a small correction (might have been a typo):
CD has a data rate of 1411 kbit/s (44100 x 2 x 16 bit per second);
that's the effective data
keep them coming. heres another.
180 gram weight somehow being better sounding is one of the biggest
myths in audio there is. Contrary to common misconception groove depth
is set during mastering - as long as the biscuit the record is pressed
from is the minimum weight needed for good fill
TheOctavist;687886 Wrote:
keep them coming. heres another.
180 gram weight somehow being better sounding is one of the biggest
myths in audio there is. Contrary to common misconception groove depth
is set during mastering - as long as the biscuit the record is pressed
from is the minimum
magiccarpetride;687901 Wrote:
Another audio myth: red book CDs somehow better sounding than 128 kbps
mp3. Where's the evidence to support such outlandish claims?
One from the audio truths department: when it comes to anything having
to do with audio magiccarpetride has absolutely no idea what
I think MCR is suffering from a bad case of Boolean inversion.
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/W7)+Teddy Pardo PSU - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1
DAC - Linn 5103 - full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
Phil Leigh;687917 Wrote:
I think MCR is suffering from a bad case of Boolean inversion.
I used to think you're the only kind person on this forum, but now I
see I was sadly mistaken -- you also enjoy attacking people when
they're down. Oh, the humanity!
--
magiccarpetride
magiccarpetride;687921 Wrote:
I used to think you're the only kind person on this forum, but now I see
I was sadly mistaken -- you also enjoy attacking people when they're
down. Oh, the humanity!
I'm just giving you some friendly advice... I'm sure it's curable...
--
Phil Leigh
You want
magiccarpetride;687901 Wrote:
Another audio myth: red book CDs somehow better sounding than 128 kbps
mp3. Where's the evidence to support such outlandish claims?
Double blind test results show people can hear that difference...I
believe I've seen this on hydrogenaudio.
--
darrenyeats
darrenyeats;687935 Wrote:
Double blind test results show people can hear that difference...I
believe I've seen this on hydrogenaudio.
Depending on the piece of music or sound, I have been able to ABX this
for myself to detect the difference. My threshold is around 160-192
kbps with studio
While you all debate, Karen Carpenter's sweet voice has me melting in my
listening chair.
That is what it's all about, right?
--
steveinaz
- transport: squeezebox touch/channel island audio ps
- dac: benchmark dac/pre
- linestage: placette passive
- power amplifier: parasound hca-1500a
-
Mnyb;684935 Wrote:
Then I have to buy pro products despite the ugly utilitarian design and
rack handles and large backlit
buttons etc .
Hey that migth be much cheaper :)
Yes, If the SQ/$ rate is what's important, I'm pretty certain that pro
or even semi-pro gear is the way to go.
(Hey,
jfo;685192 Wrote:
Spoken like a well practised troll. Of all the urges I might have, this
is truly not one of them, so you can rest easy on the state of my life.
At some point early on though, I did try to give you the benefit of the
doubt.
Stop obsessing about me, you're weirding me out.
magiccarpetride;684926 Wrote:
There was a time back in ancient history when Newtonian physicists
roamed the earth. Then one rainy day along came a guy named Albert
Einstein and proceeded to kick some Newtonian ass. He continued messing
with the feeble Newtonian minds by proposing some
Mnyb;684946 Wrote:
I think a have a piont seriusly, actually look at any hifi mag read what
the mfg claims about the products some design considerations are clearly
inspired of this kind of thinking for example bi-wiring or triwirng
terminals on speakers silver speaker binding posts , you
I'm cool the thing In have against for example set amps is more like how
they are selling it.
they use TAS style arguments .
The claims are that these are actually better amplifiers than modern
designs.
Better resolution and dynamics etc ? This is not the case .
A more modest and true claim
magiccarpetride;685088 Wrote:
Your life is indeed in a very sorry state if you feel the urge to take
me seriously.
Lighten up, dude!
+1
Well said. Spot on and to the point.
--
pandasharka
pandasharka's Profile:
magiccarpetride;685088 Wrote:
Your life is indeed in a very sorry state if you feel the urge to take
me seriously.
Lighten up, dude!
Spoken like a well practised troll. Of all the urges I might have, this
is truly not one of them, so you can rest easy on the state of my life.
At some
adamdea;684750 Wrote:
Obviously a little introspection is required before making bold claims
on any side. But that is exactly what is lacking in the subjectivist
blather which has fogged up several threads on this forum.
In reality all that has happened in response has been some more or
rgro;684667 Wrote:
My point was that before subs came into existence, if you'd kludged one
together and, on some yesteryear forum equivalent, said that you'd
invented a bass enhancement device that had the effect of changing
the ambience and making cellos sound better, a lot of people
adamdea;684750 Wrote:
Obviously a little introspection is required before making bold claims
on any side. But that is exactly what is lacking in the subjectivist
blather which has fogged up several threads on this forum.
In reality all that has happened in response has been some more or
A simple question:
What you buy a $5,000 power amp designed by someone with no formal
training in electrical and audio engineering and who believed that
placing a small stone on top an amplifier drastically improved the
sound?
I didn't think so.
--
ralphpnj
Lock, Stock and Two Smoking
adamdea;684750 Wrote:
Obviously a little introspection is required before making bold claims
on any side. But that is exactly what is lacking in the subjectivist
blather which has fogged up several threads on this forum.
In reality all that has happened in response has been some more or
rgro;684807 Wrote:
Thank you. I have a couple very minor quibbles with what you wrote, but
they're really not particularly relevant to this forum. On the
wholewell done!!
You are too kind. But thanks.
--
adamdea
steveinaz;684693 Wrote:
I think everyone would agree (and what I preach w/my 37yrs in this
hobby) is that you need to start with good base components. While I do
believe cables can make a difference(as an example)---it is IMO,
extremely subtle; and there are far more important things to
magiccarpetride;684877 Wrote:
One could argue, equally forcefully, that the exact opposite approach
would be more prudent. Waiting for the time when we're 99% there to
turn our attention to experimentation/tweaking would invariably mean
that we've already spent copious amounts of money. Many
ralphpnj;684891 Wrote:
MCR: You are the living embodiment of an enigma - you can write
something very useful and by all accounts quite reasonable, as the
passage quoted proves, and then you can also write something so
outrageous and far out that one can think you completely insane. In any
magiccarpetride;684900 Wrote:
The reason I appear so baffling to you and to other people like you is
that, horrors, I ALWAYS use my own independent thinking faculties.
Unlike many brainwashed people who have been programmed since early
childhood to only regurgitate what's already been said,
ralphpnj;684891 Wrote:
MCR: You are the living embodiment of an enigma - you can write
something very useful and by all accounts quite reasonable, as the
passage quoted proves, and then you can also write something so
outrageous and far out that one can think you completely insane. In any
magiccarpetride;684900 Wrote:
The reason I appear so baffling to you and to other people like you is
that, horrors, I ALWAYS use my own independent thinking faculties.
Unlike many brainwashed people who have been programmed since early
childhood to only regurgitate what's already been said,
ralphpnj;684906 Wrote:
Okay I'll accept your explaination but in the future please use one
rather than you in your diatribes since you don't know me from Adam.
Deal.
--
magiccarpetride
magiccarpetride's Profile:
jfo;684905 Wrote:
Just the characteristics of a sophisticated troll
There was a time back in ancient history when Newtonian physicists
roamed the earth. Then one rainy day along came a guy named Albert
Einstein and proceeded to kick some Newtonian ass. He continued messing
with the feeble
magiccarpetride;684926 Wrote:
There was a time back in ancient history when Newtonian physicists
roamed the earth. Then one rainy day along came a guy named Albert
Einstein and proceeded to kick some Newtonian ass. He continued messing
with the feeble Newtonian minds by proposing some
magiccarpetride;684926 Wrote:
There was a time back in ancient history when Newtonian physicists
roamed the earth. Then one rainy day along came a guy named Albert
Einstein and proceeded to kick some Newtonian ass. He continued messing
with the feeble Newtonian minds by proposing some
Is it indipendent thinking to swallow the audiophile mythos whole sale
?
That if anything is group mentality ?
The main stream of audiophilia has gone very far in the obscure cultish
direction.
i think people trying to keep a sane evidence based pow is in minority
.
just visit your dealer almost
- quote
Originally Posted by magiccarpetride
There was a time back in ancient history when Newtonian physicists
roamed the earth. Then one rainy day along came a guy named Albert
Einstein and proceeded to kick some Newtonian ass.
- unquote
One thing AE wasn't - he wasn't a proto-member of
Mnyb;684935 Wrote:
Is it indipendent thinking to swallow the audiophile mythos whole sale
?
That if anything is group mentality ?
The main stream of audiophilia has gone very far in the obscure cultish
direction.
i think people trying to keep a sane evidence based pow is in minority
.
ralphpnj;684944 Wrote:
Wow calm down there Mnyb, high end audio equipment is still being
designed by highly qualified and very competent individuals. Not sure
about all cables but many of the high priced cables are quite well made
even if one doesn't agree with their high cost.
Sure some
And what about overdesigned psu's there is god practice to overdesign
this to some extend for stability and peak demands.
But sometimes it seam like they really want to impress by how
overdesigned your psu is especialy in preamps and small signal stuff
that have psu's that could feed a small
magiccarpetride;684454 Wrote:
I agree. I am an audio aficionado, meaning I enjoy good, pleasant sound.
Toward that end I'm constantly upgrading and tweaking my audio system,
because I truly enjoy the changes these upgrades are bringing me.
Where things become illogical is when I read how
adamdea;684534 Wrote:
Entirely missing the point:-
People communicate for a purpose. On an audiophile website they wish to
exchange information as to how to improve the sound of their system.
When someone reports an improvement, others ask implicitly or
explicitly whether whether the
adamdea;684534 Wrote:
Entirely missing the point:-
People communicate for a purpose. On an audiophile website they wish to
exchange information as to how to improve the sound of their system.
When someone reports an improvement, others ask implicitly or
explicitly whether whether the
rgro;684596 Wrote:
Since this is what this thread is all about, I'll interject. In
general, I tend to come down more on the objective than the subjective.
All the time, I think disagreements should be respectful and civil.
Only because it leapt out at me and not directed at adamdea as an
magiccarpetride;684612 Wrote:
It must be nice to occupy a space where everything is simple and plain
and as easy as 1-2-3. You don't seem aware of this, but setting up an
audio system and then working on improving it/tweaking it is a game
that is many orders of magnitude more complex than a
adamdea;684618 Wrote:
You don't measure a subjective effect as such, you measure things which
may correspond to it.
So you claim the knowledge that unerringly maps this correspondence?
That's pretty haughty, if you ask me. How did you come to such
heightened knowledge? And more importantly,
There is a scientifically rigorous tool to establish whether a change
makes an audible difference: the double blind ABX test. Any other kind
of comparison cannot be taken seriously, because we all know that
non-auditory clues cause the brain to change its perception of the
sound. The video that
The bigger question is: Why are people so pre-occupied with the
decisions of other people? Is hi-fi not a hobby? What fun is it to have
a hobby---and then sit in the box never trying anything new? Where's
the passion in that?
Experiment gents. Let the lab rats be lab rats, let the nut jobs be
chill;684657 Wrote:
I considered starting a new thread for this, because I promise you, I'm
not raising it in a thread entitled 'Audio Myths' because I think it
falls into that category. But since the subject of the soundstage was
raised here I thought it could make an interesting aside to
adamdea;684613 Wrote:
I wrote a fairly long response to this but for some reason the browser
crashed as i pressed submit.
I'm sure that your let's all be nice point was well intentioned, but
the example you used was very badly chosen.
In the post which you quoted I was making the
steveinaz;684656 Wrote:
The bigger question is: Why are people so pre-occupied with the
decisions of other people? Is hi-fi not a hobby? What fun is it to have
a hobby---and then sit in the box never trying anything new? Where's
the passion in that?
Experiment gents. Let the lab rats be
steveinaz;684656 Wrote:
The bigger question is: Why are people so pre-occupied with the
decisions of other people? Is hi-fi not a hobby? What fun is it to have
a hobby---and then sit in the box never trying anything new? Where's
the passion in that?
Experiment gents. Let the lab rats be
Ron Olsen;684670 Wrote:
True. Do what floats your boat. But don't foist off voodoo science on
unsuspecting newbies looking to use a SB Touch in their music system as
required mods to get the best out of your Touch.
Yes! Recent example, someone wants to customize info shown on screen of
Touch
Ron Olsen;684670 Wrote:
True. Do what floats your boat. But don't foist off voodoo science on
unsuspecting newbies looking to use a SB Touch in their music system as
required mods to get the best out of your Touch.
Why is it that in here we find so many bleeding hearts and an endless
parade
garym;684673 Wrote:
Yes! Recent example, someone wants to customize info shown on screen of
Touch (similar to how they were able to do it on their old SB3). One of
the first few posters said basically first do all the TT3.0 mods! The
guy wants to change the info displayed, and he's being
rgro;684668 Wrote:
Heheheheh, I like this point of view!
+1 (which is why I don't read the soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0 thread
- I happen to think that the Touch sounds wonderful right out of the
box.)
--
ralphpnj
Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter -
I think everyone would agree (and what I preach w/my 37yrs in this
hobby) is that you need to start with good base components. While I do
believe cables can make a difference(as an example)---it is IMO,
extrememly subtle; and there are far more important things to address
first.
The important
garym;684673 Wrote:
Yes! Recent example, someone wants to customize info shown on screen of
Touch (similar to how they were able to do it on their old SB3). One of
the first few posters said basically first do all the TT3.0 mods! The
guy wants to change the info displayed, and he's being
ralphpnj;684688 Wrote:
+1 (which is why I don't read the soundcheck's Touch Toolbox 3.0 thread
- I happen to think that the Touch sounds wonderful right out of the
box.)
Agree--I have an upgraded power supply (CIA), and I run into a
Benchmark DAC--I'm very pleased with the performance. I
steveinaz;684693 Wrote:
I think everyone would agree (and what I preach w/my 37yrs in this
hobby) is that you need to start with good base components. While I do
believe cables can make a difference(as an example)---it is IMO,
extrememly subtle; and there are far more important things to
Hi-fi is about TRUTH. If you sincerely want truth in your system, you
have to understand both the science of electronics/sound, and the
psyhcoacoustical (sp?) properties. Now, you can kid yourself all day
long--but that's no way to get at the truth. So ask yourself, what is
it you want to
rgro;684692 Wrote:
True. Do what floats your boat. But don't foist off voodoo science on
unsuspecting newbies looking to use a SB Touch in their music system as
required mods to get the best out of your Touch.
First of all, I agree with both of these. But, and I ask this in all
rgro;684692 Wrote:
True. Do what floats your boat. But don't foist off voodoo science on
unsuspecting newbies looking to use a SB Touch in their music system as
required mods to get the best out of your Touch.
First of all, I agree with both of these. But, and I ask this in all
garym;684706 Wrote:
You raise a very good question, and a difficult one to answer (a good
answer to this question could end all this discussion!). Some things
are hard to validate. But many things discussed on this forum are EASY
to test with a simple blind comparison. e.g., Tell me how
chill;684657 Wrote:
I considered starting a new thread for this, because I promise you, I'm
not raising it in a thread entitled 'Audio Myths' because I think it
falls into that category. But since the subject of the soundstage was
raised here I thought it could make an interesting aside to
Ron Olsen;684705 Wrote:
Good audio science = validated by blind listening test, with precise
volume matching between the test alternatives.
Good audio science = validated by relevant electrical or acoustic
measurements.
thats a good partial answer thanks.
Rgro rasies some more q it is
Mnyb;684718 Wrote:
Interesting side track, it deserves it own tread
You're right. I'll start another thread and ask people not to make any
further comment on the soundstage topic in this thread.
--
chill
chill's
Mnyb;684227 Wrote:
in the wav-flac-wav case the corect answer is there in thier own data
set for everyone to see, and yet they are incapable of seing it rigth
in front of them !?How can they think like that ? What is wrong .
Where audiophoolia is concerned logic needn't apply
--
audiomuze
audiomuze;684419 Wrote:
Where audiophoolia is concerned logic needn't apply
I agree. I am an audio aficionado, meaning I enjoy good, pleasant
sound. Toward that end I'm constantly upgrading and tweaking my audio
system, because I truly enjoy the changes these upgrades are bringing
me.
Where
I suppose the Topic - Audiophiles - sort of encourages people to
participate in a 'Mine is bigger than yours - it must be 'cos I just
spent $500 on a SupaDupa plug' contest - why is there a need to
broadcast your spending habits. Is it in a search for like-minded
souls?
If you announce your
magiccarpetride;684454 Wrote:
I agree. I am an audio aficionado, meaning I enjoy good, pleasant sound.
Toward that end I'm constantly upgrading and tweaking my audio system,
because I truly enjoy the changes these upgrades are bringing me.
Where things become illogical is when I read how
magiccarpetride;684454 Wrote:
I agree. I am an audio aficionado, meaning I enjoy good, pleasant sound.
Toward that end I'm constantly upgrading and tweaking my audio system,
because I truly enjoy the changes these upgrades are bringing me.
Where things become illogical is when I read how
garym;684471 Wrote:
No one cares how any of us spend our own money or whether we get
enjoyment from tweaking. That has never been the point.
I'm not so sure. I can't recall how many times already I've read
snickering deriding statements like you're an incredible moron for
wasting that much
ralphpnj;684472 Wrote:
I think where you run into some serious issues with many of the members
of this forum is when you begin to talk about upgrades, tweaks and
improvements of the digital side of one's audio set up. You know things
likes wav sounds better than flac or ethernet sounds
magiccarpetride;684485 Wrote:
I've never claimed that WAV sounds better than FLAC (that's not the case
as far as my ears are concerned), nor did I claim that ethernet sounds
better than wi-fi. Where did you get that idea from?
Mia culpa. I was just trying to think of some examples. I'm sorry
ralph re cables up to a limit around where BJC or similar companies
operates I'm with you, but not after that then it's markup and fancy
design.
Or worse, I have in my closet cables that are actually worse than the
free ones thrown in the box, but very cherished among some audiophiles
.
adamdea;683643 Wrote:
If you are interested in thud I recommend
Watkinson
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-Digital-Audio-John-Watkinson/dp/0240516435
I am not an engineer but got bored listening to BS from people who have
no idea what they are talking about. So I read this book and
sckramer;684022 Wrote:
I just got mad at the bickering, but people must have banned me cause
they though I was sbgk, didn't mean for that to happen
Indeed - I think a few people put 2 and 2 together to make 5. My
apologies for being among them.
--
chill
Octavist thanks for the reading list :) I do like to read , so why not
something related to my hobby.
this looks very interesting.
Now an half oftopic dilemma I have a closet of crap from my former life
as audiophool .
should i just recycle it ? I'm reluctant to sell it even if has a
value ,
Mnyb;684076 Wrote:
Now an half oftopic dilemma I have a closet of crap from my former life
as audiophool .
should i just recycle it ? I'm reluctant to sell it even if has a
value , moraly i consider it fraud/scam now when i'm not a believer
myself.
Think demand and supply. Sell it on
mherger;683990 Wrote:
Guys - when will you learn that religious wars can't be won? So please
either stop this stupid discussion, or at least stop complaining about
each other. This thread and its relatives have caused more reports than
all the last few months worth of spam... it's
ralphpnj;684211 Wrote:
I disagree to a degree with first part of this statement. Several
members have presented factual evidence to support their
claims/beliefs. Believing in something based on factual evidence is
entirely different from believing in something which goes against the
facts.
totoro;683797 Wrote:
WTF? Nobody in this discussion was suggesting that there is no way to
improve on the touch.
Some might have been suggesting that certain kinds of tweaks are pure
voodoo, and I agree with that.
Your screed, insofar as it makes any sense, seems to be some kind of
There are some forums where creating alternate user names (funny that we
haven't heard from Mennace again) and posting large chunks of irrelevant
copy+pasted material would get a user banned. I suspect he knows this,
hence the few words of his own at the start of each post and the
correct
chill;683816 Wrote:
There are some forums where creating alternate user names (funny that we
haven't heard from Mennace again) and posting large chunks of irrelevant
copy+pasted material would get a user banned. I suspect he knows this,
hence the few words of his own at the start of each
Look, a copypasta spambot. Another addition to my ignore list, then. You
were right Mnyb, this thread has been excellent for identifying the
candidates.
--
Soulkeeper
-That is not dead which can eternal lie. And with strange aeons even
death may die.- 'Bug 17797: Updating
Guys - when will you learn that religious wars can't be won? So please
either stop this stupid discussion, or at least stop complaining about
each other. This thread and its relatives have caused more reports than
all the last few months worth of spam... it's ridiculous.
And fwiw: after
mherger;683990 Wrote:
Guys - when will you learn that religious wars can't be won? So please
either stop this stupid discussion, or at least stop complaining about
each other. This thread and its relatives have caused more reports than
all the last few months worth of spam... it's
mherger;683990 Wrote:
Guys - when will you learn that religious wars can't be won? So please
either stop this stupid discussion, or at least stop complaining about
each other. This thread and its relatives have caused more reports than
all the last few months worth of spam... it's
Can the tread go back on topic now :)
Topic is audio myths , not infigthing within the TT3.0 comunity, there
is a whole other tread for that.
mennace/scramer .
Did you maintain both accounts at the same time ? People usually do
this to practice sock puppeting and this skews dicussion as
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