nuhi;338932 Wrote:
@Nonreality, that's it, at least you were wiser from the start. My
wishful thinking got to me, but at least as honestguv stated I did
learn my lesson.
Don't worry, I've fallen prey to this crap too. Just not with too
expensive of stuff because I didn't have the money to
honestguv;339431 Wrote:
Audiophiles want to believe in magic. If they stop believing and start
following real world performance then a consumer based hobby is going
to be rather boring and unsatisfactory. How many readers and
advertisers would a home audio publications get that said all
seanadams;339423 Wrote:
You have reached an intellectual dead-end - a total impasse. You're
asking questions, but how could any answer satisfy you if you've
already decided that everyone else is full of it?It's my 70's side... ;)
seanadams;339423 Wrote:
The thing is, you are asking
Themis;338929 Wrote:
The NAD is half the price. Guess which one is more accurate ? :)
According to the measures, I should throw away the Kora but... anybody
who has listened to both of them can't really find these products are
equal. In fact the price difference reflects the actual
#25105;#20204;#30340;'#20551;#21457;'
opaqueice;339295 Wrote:
Well, first you should pass a level-matched blind test to make sure
you're not imagining things. If you can reliably distinguish AND you
prefer the Kora blind, it most likely means that you're hearing the
distortion (1% might be audible) and that you like the sound
On the available data it almost certainly is closer...on paper. I'm not
saying that these figures are all that matters. However, higher
distortion and non-flat freq response do mean deviation from the
original input signal - no matter what else is happening.
The first job an amp has to do is
As you know all electronics are deviations from the original signal.
Even straight wire. It's just a matter of how much this deviation
influences the listening experience.
I'm sorry to say, but there's nothing that assures us that the KORA
deviation (in my example) is more influencing than the
Themis;339380 Wrote:
As you know all electronics are deviations from the original signal.
Even straight wire. It's just a matter of how much this deviation
influences the listening experience.
I'm sorry to say, but there's nothing that assures us that the KORA
deviation (in my example) is
Sure Phil. ;)
And manufacturers, most of the time, don't mention slew rate, neither
rise time, nor settling time, not to mention ringing and overshoot. Let
alone other factors that sound engineers haven't discovered yet.
--
Themis
SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus
Themis;339388 Wrote:
Sure Phil. ;)
And manufacturers, most of the time, don't mention slew rate, neither
rise time, nor settling time, not to mention ringing and overshoot. Let
alone other factors that sound engineers haven't discovered yet.
Those parameters are already incorporated in
I'm not excessive. Simply when some figures don't reflect what comes out
from the speakers, it puzzles me. As I'm not a sound-related engineer,
and as nobody can give me a good explanation, I try to think using my
own logic.
Moreover, on the domains that I master better (computer science) I am
Themis;339356 Wrote:
That's exactly the point in which you're wrong : what makes YOU think
that the figures mean the NAD is closer to the original signal than the
Kora ?
Centuries of research in mathematics, physics, and psychoacoustics.
These are only three figures. Do you _seriously_
Themis;339398 Wrote:
Simply when some figures don't reflect what comes out from the speakers,
it puzzles me.
But you don't know that. The first and most obvious explanation for
such a thing is perceptual bias - we know for a fact that it affects
everyone very strongly, and we know that the
opaqueice wrote:
any signal can be completely characterized by
its frequency domain counterpart, period.
As taught to us by Jean Baptiste Joseph Fourier.
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audiophiles mailing list
audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com
Come on, now : I've been listening to hifi equipment for 35 years now...
Don't believe that level-adjustment can alter my opinion : it's a
beginner's trap, no more. :)
The figures of THD I gave are these at full power. That's all. Don't
let it obscure your opinion about the distortion (on the
Themis;339398 Wrote:
Moreover, on the domains that I master better (computer science) I am
aware that the vast majority of professionals know very few things :
most of the time they assure other people about a extremely partial
truth. So partial, that it's objectively closer to a lie than
nuhi;338932 Wrote:
Will it ever change if we don't revolt?
Audiophiles want to believe in magic. If they stop believing and start
following real world performance then a consumer based hobby is going
to be rather boring and unsatisfactory. How many readers and
advertisers would a home audio
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough... here are two amplifiers from real life:
KORA 90 SI:
S/N : 100dB
FreqResp: 7-40KHz @-3dB
THD: 0.98%
NAD C325BEE:
S/N: 117 dB
FreqResp: 3-70kHz @ +-0.1 dB
THD: 0.02%
The NAD is half the price. Guess which one is more accurate ? :)
According to the measures, I
@Nonreality, that's it, at least you were wiser from the start. My
wishful thinking got to me, but at least as honestguv stated I did
learn my lesson.
@haunyack, busted. Gotta make an app that removes gullibility as well.
Can't wait to upload myself to the net and do some tweaking ;)
opaqueice;338305 Wrote:
There are lots of potential problems: high pressure sales tactics,
false advertising, bait and switch, etc. etc. Many common practices in
cables selling at least verge on some of those. Whether they actually
cross the line is not for me to decide, but as I said I
Nonreality;338354 Wrote:
I thought we were talking about cables not cars? ;)
Amazing, isn't it?
I suspect it's because cables are among the highest margin items they
sell.
--
opaqueice
opaqueice's Profile:
opaqueice;338448 Wrote:
Amazing, isn't it?
I suspect it's because cables are among the highest margin items they
sell.
Don't you mean Peddle?
--
iPhone
*iPhone*
'Last.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/mephone)
Media Room:
Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's,
honestguv;338218 Wrote:
I am curious about these pseudo-scientists and inaccurate facts. Could
you please post an example or two.
Are pseudo-scientists loonies that are unrelated to scientists?Sure I can :
False fact #1: An amplifier with 0.1% THD @ 1KHz sounds worse or is
not as accurate
Themis;338570 Wrote:
Sure I can :
False fact #1: An amplifier with 0.1% THD @ 1KHz sounds worse or is
not as accurate or whatever else than another amplifier which has
0.005% [EMAIL PROTECTED] Both amplifiers having the same S/N ratio and the
same
frequency response.
False fact #2: A
Nuhi,
Despite your cables being technically perfect (i.e. not audibly
degrading the signal) and the marketing working for you subjectively,
at least for a while, in persuading you to perceive whatever you were
after, something still ought to be done about audiophile cables? You no
longer seem to
honestguv;338028 Wrote:
You disagree with my distinction between lies and misleading despite
there being existing laws about the former which are occasionally
invoked when cable companies cross the line from misleading to lies.
I really don't think that happens very often. Those laws are
honestguv;338028 Wrote:
The audiophile sector split from the sound/audio mainstream and created
an isolated world in which flat earth beliefs can thrive and they
have indeed grown more extreme over the 30 years life of the sector.Sound
pseudo-scientists have exposed too many false facts
Opaqueice,
Still, I wouldn't be too surprised if something happens with cables
here in
the States considering the prevalence of expensive cables at just
about all
the major electronics retailers.
The cables are not defective and normal cables are available at normal
prices if people prefer
Themis;338180 Wrote:
Sound pseudo-scientists have exposed too many false facts (disguised as
scientific truths) during the last 30 years. Really too many
inaccurate facts. I wonder who lives in a flat world : audiophiles
or these sound scientists ?
I am curious about these pseudo-scientists
honestguv;338213 Wrote:
The cables are not defective and normal cables are available at normal
prices if people prefer to buy them. Where is the problem?
There are lots of potential problems: high pressure sales tactics,
false advertising, bait and switch, etc. etc. Many common practices
nuhi;337471 Wrote:
Try to shorten if there is any future response, this is barely
maintainable as a casual reply.
Wasn't that stated above, a hobby.
But the premise was wrong as I would always get back to the same issues
(in my case the sibilance). I would buy more expensive cables and
It's not just the high end places that do this, ripping people off on
cables seems to be the new black. I was in Best Buy yesterday (looking
for a Boom, I don't tend to go in there often otherwise). They didn't
have a single HDMI cable in the place under $70, and most were $100+ (I
bought some
Never buy cables at a big-box electronics store (or at a high-end audio
shop, for that matter).
This place has quality stuff at very reasonable prices:
http://www.monoprice.com/home/index.asp . Or go with bluejeans for the
best quality.
--
opaqueice
Hey nuhi,
Are you the author of the most excellent nLite/vLite apps?
.
--
haunyack
haunyack's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9721
View this thread:
I always smile when I read bout 2,000% profit/markup and how heated
people get - makes me realise how little people actually know about
what happens in retail. (back story: I come from a family that has a
'family' buisness of 200 stores in the UK, which the family actually
sold for many many
Ignorance is bliss means you can fool yourself, for some unknowingly,
and enjoy in the
hobby while the reality of things is not that fruitful.
I am not sure I would agree. If you consider enjoying art such as
books, music, movies and such then being ignorant (not knowing) about
the
Try to shorten if there is any future response, this is barely
maintainable as a casual reply.
honestguv;337405 Wrote:
What were you enjoying when you believed in audiophile cables?
Wasn't that stated above, hobby that is fun and passes the time while
chasing the dragon.
But the premise
Exotic audiophile cables are luxury goods. The manufacturers and
suppliers of
luxury goods invest a lot of time and effort building positive
associations
that their customers pick up along with the product.
They are being lied to.
Lied is too strong. Marketing is about creating a positive
honestguv;336868 Wrote:
Basically you are saying ignorance is bliss and ends justify the
means.
Not in the slightest.
Ignorance is a requirement to be an audiophile but it does not seem to
lead to bliss...
You went full speed ahead for the literal bliss but that was not the
point.
honestguv;336363 Wrote:
So the placebo effect is not real?
Of course it is... but audio cables aren't marketed for how effectively
they delude you into thinking they make a difference :-).
It is usually a problem if an objective statement is made for which the
advertiser cannot supply
honestguv;336358 Wrote:
Why is it immoral? Exotic audiophile cables are luxury goods. The
manufacturers and suppliers of luxury goods invest a lot of time and
effort building positive associations that their customers pick up
along with the product.
They are being lied to.
Basically you are
nuhi;336109 Wrote:
Because it is immoral to sell cables for these prices knowing that all
the sonic difference is based on a placebo effect.
I for one, in some people's eyes pay silly money for cables, and, I
don't care if its placebo or a technical reality, what ever it is, it's
been well
Deaf Cat;336674 Wrote:
...
If as you say its placebo, why has someone not invented the holiday
feeling pill for normal work days :-)
Oh, but they did. It's called 'having enough money'.
K
--
slimkid
Where does the light go when you turn the switch off?
Deaf Cat;336674 Wrote:
I for one, in some people's eyes pay silly money for cables, and, I
don't care if its placebo or a technical reality, what ever it is, it's
been well worth the £5 pcm for the last 4 years (since last cable
purchase). Simply down to the gain in pleasure and enjoyment
Themis;335881 Wrote:
... what's the point in spending all this energy at ridiculizing these
poor cables ? I wonder.
Because it is immoral to sell cables for these prices knowing that all
the sonic difference is based on a placebo effect.
Best part is when they (some cable manufacturer) say we
If someone thinks something is worth so much then (to him or her) it is.
This is self-evident and is SO NOT the point. :)
The real debate is about whether the product has been presented fairly
which can be a grey area. In other words where does fair marketing
spin cross over into misinformation.
nuhi;336109 Wrote:
Because it is immoral to sell cables for these prices knowing that all
the sonic difference is based on a placebo effect.
Why is it immoral? Exotic audiophile cables are luxury goods. The
manufacturers and suppliers of luxury goods invest a lot of time and
effort building
opaqueice;336332 Wrote:
But Monster and other cable manufacturers advertise their cables as
improving audio quality (when they obviously don't).
So the placebo effect is not real?
opaqueice;336332 Wrote:
That's false advertising and probably illegal.
It is usually a problem if an objective
Themis;335881 Wrote:
I agree with you on this point, it's the same to me. But, I suppose that
some people feel a $500 cable is an equally relevant value for them, and
it's hard (for me) to laugh at them simply because I use a different
value-measuring method. Objectively, even the author is
Themis;335414 Wrote:
I suspect the something on them is simply what we call profit... :)
Just like for cables.
Yes but it's more towards the 20 than the 10 cents in this case. But I
know what you mean. I feel with an album that I like somewhat that I
get at least 7-10 US dollars worth. With
Nonreality;335587 Wrote:
Yes but it's more towards the 20 than the 10 cents in this case. But I
know what you mean. I feel with an album that I like somewhat that I
get at least 7-10 US dollars worth. With an incredible ablum maybe 20
is fine, maybe more. It's a hard one to put a value
bigfool1956;283885 Wrote:
Pity about the newspaper style percentage. If something costs you $15,
and you direct retail it for $300, that's 95% profit, not 2,000%.
If you think different, then you are the corporate tax man's friend,
and I'm not employing you to do my company's accounts :)))
seanadams;284320 Wrote:
WHO CARES what the part cost or the markup is? Then dang thing is so
poorly made that at best it'll barely work, and it worst it'll burn
your house down. Conductors pinched in the connector housing - come
on!
This product is absolutely worthless, is illegal to sell
zanash;284194 Wrote:
sorry for the long quote ..
I'm inclined to agree with most of this but not all ...its the best
explaination that tallies with my experience ...and writen better than
I could !Is this an ad or spam? Trying to figure it out. Not your part but
your
quote.
--
JimC;284588 Wrote:
The rule of thumb often used by most analysts is that for the average
high-tech company MSRP is generally 3X product cost. (My wife used to
work in Investor Relations, so I cribbed this from her).
This means a $99.99 product from a high-tech company is assumed to cost
Themis;335336 Wrote:
I must agree with the last two sentences of the author :
Any cable is really only worth the improvement it makes in your
system. If you don't feel a cable or power cord sounds as good as its
price tag suggests should, send it back.
As for the rest, oh well : A CD
Story so far:
I have a linear psu feeding a SB via coax to an AVR200 that I use as a
dac and pre, feeding a Maia, into a couple of Ditton floor standers.
Quite a basic system to some Ive heard but I actually prefer it to
some far more expensive kit Ive heard, eg a Naim set up was
wonderfully
DeafCat,
If you didn't do a blind comparison you can't rule out expectation
bias.
--
tomjtx
tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449
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