Iskandar Hai wrote:
Dear Rich:
Actually, `Abdu'l-Baha did not reverse Himself; it's rather
straightforward if you follow it rather carefully. Here is the thing: as
you know, `Abdu'l-Baha is the Interpreter of Baha'u'llah's mind not
just the Writings of Baha'u'llah; so, `Abdu'l-Baha tells
Susan Maneck wrote:
I can appreciate the need to
translate all the writings, but I sometimes wonder if these commentaries
might be more helpful.
Dear Rich,
Personally I don't want to read other people's commentary when I can't
read the original text.
But we do have the text.
Dear Sen,
I got a lot out of your response to Ron. It does bring up up a couple of
issues for me. Why hasn't the Persian or Arabic Bayan been translated
into English as this might help clarify some issues? Also why have
commentaries on the laws from such collections as Amr Va Khalq not been
Susan Maneck wrote:
Also why have
commentaries on the laws from such collections as Amr Va Khalq not been
translated?
We aren't going to see commentaries being translated when we have yet
to translate all the Writings!
warmest, Susan
Hi Susan,
Long time. Thanks for the web
Susan Maneck wrote:
In many countries Catholic priests were
marrying up to about 1000 AD. I
Dear Rich,
They still do marry in Lebanon.
warmest, Susan
Susan,
Also in the Ctholic Uniate Church in Ukrania. These churches, both the
Lebanese Marionite, the Catholic Uniate, and
David,
Limbo was nixed years ago. The Pope may be reminding folks, but it
hasn't been Catholic doctrine for years. Papal infallability has only
been a doctrine since the 1870s, how it came about is a fascinating
story. Susan is right the Pope is only infallable when speaking ex
cathedra
Larry Marquardt wrote:
Dear Friends,
In regards to the Short Obligatory prayer, I bear witness O my God...
Can anyone offer their understanding why the invocation 'O My God' is written at the beginning of the Short Obligatory prayer in Arabic but is written after 'I bear witness' when
Benjamin La Framboise wrote:
Dearest friends,
I have a little favor to ask, and I'm only reluctant because I'm
afraid it's not really related to Baha'i Studies. I'm just not sure
where else to turn.
I have a couple of friends, a Baha'i and a Muslim, both devout, who
would like to get
Benjamin La Framboise wrote:
Dear Rich,
Thanks for the email. Would this Muslim consider himself 'devout'?
That's an interesting arrangement (regarding Feast); I'd never heard
that before, and I guess it still preserves the Baha'i-onlyness of the
business portion, right?
Would your
*/[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* escribió:
...badaa signifies a change in the Divine Will. So theoretically
it would be possible. But given the strong language Baha'u'llah
used in that regard, I think it about as likely as God changing
the law of gravity (which
firestorm wrote:
for reasons of my own, i have always been rather find of aisha. do we have any
available clues as to what her issues with the Imam Ali were? or at least, what
people said they were?
Firestorm,
Aisha sided with Mu'awiyya and the Ummayyads against Ali's authority as
marylou9 wrote:
Dear friends,
These are the early days of a special project and I would like to ask your
assistance.
I am gathering stories and experiences of former Catholics
as well as former priests and nuns who have become Bahais.
The focus will be how they learned of the Bahai Faith
Sandra wrote:
In an interview with Newsweek, former US Secretary of State. Madeleine
Albright makes the following comment: “Islam itself and the Qur'an are
not actually antiwoman. Mohammed was married to a businesswoman. It is
more the culture of particular Arab countries and not Islam.”
Susan Maneck wrote:
One problem in interpreting Baha'i doctrine as Liberation Theology lies in
the fact that Baha'is are usually discouraged from involving themselves in
political affairs. Cole regards this a temporary measure adopted by
`Abdu'l-Baha, made in response to the turmoil of the
Susan Maneck wrote:
Would it not be the case that
CBs also no longer fot the criteria for being Baha'is?
Were that simply the case, then why not just remove them from the roles
rather than declare them Covenant breakers?
Principally because of the act of trying to destroy the Covenant.
Tim,
Those were wonderful points and I agree with them. It is only when
the claims effect how Baha'is are percieved by others that I have an
issue. I believe that when the Remeyites tried to use the name of the
Baha'i Faith in the early sixties, they were taken to court and told
that they
Mark,
I am humbled. I had forgotten about that quote. You are quite right.
I've gained some knowledge from the discussion, and in one sense I still
think that we need to be vigilant about how the name Baha'i is used, but
I also agree that in the broader sense there are Baha'i who have never
My point is that the Universal House of Justice apparently *does* consider
Covenant breakers Baha'is on some level but not those it has removed from
the roles. Otherwise the ones they removed from the roles would have been
declared CBs as well.
warmest, Susan
Susan,
Maybe it's a matter of
Richard H. Gravelly wrote:
I thank you very much Rich. Would it be possible then that ghars,
gharasa, and gharasi refer to the planting with tree being
understood in the following passage?
In the year ghars [i.e.1260] the earth shall be illumined by His
light, and
in gharasa [1265] the
As to what I'm going to do, I'm not going to
say they're Baha'i when I don't believe they are.
Fine, don't. What are you going to do about it? Hit them with a
trademark violation?
I ask again because you did not answer.
I left my quote above as to what I do in
To my knowledge this is not the case. I've never seen the House say anything
to the effect that they *never* were really Baha'is only that they did not
meet the qualifications of membership at the time they were disenrolled.
People change.
warmest, Susan
Susan
Excellent point and I
Wouldn't that be true of those who were removed from the roles, as well?
There must be some distinction.
warmest, Susan
Susna,
I would agree, but I don't see your point. They're still not
Baha'is, right?
Rich
The information contained in this e-mail and any
You are taking the passage out of context. It is addressed to religious
leaders, not scientists. The standards and sciences referred to are those of
Islamic theology.
warmest, Susan
No I'm not. I may be interpreting it differently than you, but I am not
taking it out of context. The
I have planted their trees
(ana (I) gharastu (have planted_ ashjar (Trees) aha (their)
Rich
The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto (e-mail) is sent
by the Johnson County Community College (JCCC) and is intended to be confidential and
for the use
So? What are you going to do hit them with a trademark violation
for CLAIMING to be Baha`i?
Its pointless to try to stop self-identification its against
everything western society holds dear.
Scott,
Who says I care about everything Western Society holds dear?
I am always a Baha'i, always a sociologist, and always an individual. I have no
problem simultaneously seeing an issue from various perspectives associated
with each of these statuses.
Mark,
Of course you are. Upon rereading my response, it was churlish and I
apologize.
My point was
Mark A. Foster wrote:
Richard,
At 10:11 PM 9/10/2005, you wrote:
Dr. Lawson translates (ana gharastu ashjaraha) to I have planted their trees. Does
al-ghars refer to the tree or to the planting thereof or to both?
Ghars (tree) is the singular of aghsan. al- is the definite
Mark A. Foster wrote:
Rich,
At 05:02 PM 9/5/2005, you wrote:
We're not sociologists, we're Baha'is and we go by the Baha'i definitions of Covenent Breakers and their followers.
Not everyone on this list is a Baha'i. This is also not a "Baha'i" list. It
Mark A. Foster wrote:
I define myself differently in different contexts. Why are you being so judgmental? I don't recall you ever having expressed yourself in this way.
I guess I don't. When I'm treating patients, I'm a Baha'i.
Ian Semple, in a talk on
Susan Maneck wrote:
I guess from a Baha'i perspective we wouldn't see this as splinter
Baha'i groups, because from our point of view they stopped being Baha'is
at the moment they broke off from any point of the administrative order.
Dear Rich,
I'm not sure that is true. In recent years the
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
On 9/9/05, Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My point was that the Gilberto made a statement about how Baha'is react
to or regard covenant breakers. While I can respect your methodology, I
think in the case given I think it muddied the picture
As a sociologist (and also as an individual), I would consider them to be Baha'is based on
self-definition, and I also would regard their organizations, where they exist, to be branches
of the Baha'i Faith. (The word 'sect has a precise usage in the sociology of religion,
and none of the
Mark A. Foster wrote:
Rich,
At 09:00 PM 9/3/2005, you wrote:
Actually, that would be true. The sanctity of the confessional is inviolate. A priest
cannot reveal to anyone what he hears in confession, no matter how heinous. Priests
have gone to jail, and in some instances to their deaths
Mark A. Foster wrote:
Tim,
At 06:49 AM 9/4/2005, you wrote:
A person can define himself as anything, there is no way to control that. However,
that doesn't mean the rest of the world must accept that self-definition.
As a sociologist of religion, I have no alternative but to
Sure, but that cuts both ways. If I'm not a Bahai and have no
particular loyalty to the UHJ why would I think that the Orthodox
Bahais are not Bahais? They both believe in the Bab, Bahaullah,
Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. They both read the same writings (I
think). They seem to have the same
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
I've gotten into discussions before with Bahais where they tried to
say that the Bahai faith has never split and that its unity is
promised by the central figures and is proof of its divine origin and
at the same time, these Bahais would make a big deal about divisions
For example if a child molestor goes to a priest and confesses his sins, the confession would be protected.
To my knowledge, in most cases that would *not* be true (at least not in the
U.S.).
Mark,
Actually, that would be true. The sanctity of the confessional is
inviolate. A
Dear Gilberto, Susan, Iskandar, and everyone else.
I know Mark and Susan have asked that this thread be discontinued
and I'd like to honor that, But first I'd like to clear up some things
for the sake of peace.
It is a little weird to mention a
Idon't know any Muslims who actually persecute Bahais I'm
not a Shia. I'm not Iranian. I have absolutely no pull with the Iranian
government. I get along pretty well with the Bahais I know
face-to-face. If you yourself haven't been persecuted by Muslims, and I
haven't
Susan Maneck wrote:
I am interested in trying, once again, to read the Quran, and I am
wondering what translation (into English) might be recommended by
those on this list.
I have been using the translation of Majid Kakhry, it is endorsed by Al-Azhar.
He is also the author of works on Islamic
David,
As someone who prescribes anti depressants I wanted to wade into
this briefly. Some people develope a depression that is so severe that
they develope psychotic features. Other people isolate, stop eating,
bathing, or even leaving there rooms. I work at a jail on weekends, we
have a
Hi everyone,
I have not been able to puruse the document by the House. Can anyone
tell me where to obtain it.
Rich
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MARK,
Jilla is on the list. She is a Baha'i in Spokane WA and a very nice
person to boot.
Rich
Mark A. Foster wrote:
Come join my network at hi5!
Is this spam, or is this person on the list? Does anyone know?
Via moderna, Mark A. Foster
Gilberto,
You can find it at the Vatican Web Site.
Rich
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
On 5/4/05, Barmak Kusha [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I would have to check it once I am home.
W00-01 Savi, JulioThe Declaration Dominus Iesus: A Brake on
Ecumenism and Interfaith Dialogue?
Is
Gilberto,
Thanks. The Persians in the community tell me that they say May your
fast be acceptable. The Muslims I know also say this during Ramadan.
Rich
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
I'm not sure what the standard greeting is and I realize this is late,
but happy fasting to all those who are
Forouz,
Sorry it took me so long to get back. I am aware of this and I
should of wished all the Friends a joyous holiday. Eid ul miladayn mubarak!
Rich
Firouz Anaraki wrote:
Dear Rich,
1st and 2nd of Muharram are very important for Baha'is too. Birthday
of the Bab is on 1st of Muharram and
Ian,
All duly noted. I understand the point you were trying to make now.
I would love to learn more about the individual Baha'is during the
Third Reich.
Rich
Ian Kluge wrote:
Dear
Rich,
I,
too, remember our meeting fondly and
likewise hope that this finds you
Hitler
was never elected Chancellor; in Germanys
last truly democratic election, he pulled 37% of the vote, which means
that 63%
of voters opted for various other parties.
A
government can be legally constituted with 37% or 44% of the vote if
that's a
majority. Look at us
Gilberto,
Sorry this is late. Yesterday was the 1st of Muharram. Happy New Year!
Rich
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With regard to obedience/disobedience to governments... there
is a "qualifier" that seems to be missing from the discussion.
That word is "just". Obedience to JUST governments.
Hi everyone,
Just wading in briefly. If I remember right, Shoghi Effendi defined
a just
Susan
WOOF! Color me embarrassed. Of course you're right and I plea
exhaustion when I wrote that. I remember reading of a North African
Scholar who declared that the tales of the Mahdi were folktales and I,
somehow, transposed this onto Ibn Khaldun. Nonetheless it is sloppy
scholarship and I
JS,
I think most anything by Fakhry is good. I've read his bios of
Averoes and Ibn Faraby and find them excellent. His translation of the
Qur'an is, to my knowledge, the first approved by AlAzhar.
Rich
JS wrote:
Inspired by Gilberto's questions, I decided to purchased 'A History of
Islamic
Gilberto:
I never said Islam was the only religion that preaches finality. It
clearly teaches that Muhammad was the last prophet. Christianity does
not teach that Jesus was the last prophet. Judaism does not teach that
Moses was the last prophet.
I just don't want to overgeneralize
Glory." There is more to the role of Baha'u'llah than
it's in that book though.
Thanks, Ahang.
--- Rich Ater [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In Gilberto's defense, I believe that Umar actually deferred the paying
of the jizya in many instances.
Rich
Gilberto Sim
Listen, judging from the huge number of postings on this list, some of you
folks seem to have a lot of time on your hand. I don't. So this is my last
word on the subject.
Ahang,
I'm sorry for your bad feelings towards Islam. Nonetheless it gives
you no cause to be dismisive and
G:
Fine. Then as long as you recognize that, we are done. And to keep
dwelling on it is unnecessary.
No, We're not. At least not in the sense you think. As I said in my past posting, just because Christianity allows for prophets, by their definition; not your's, does not mean that
IT'S TIME FOR THE GUY WHO WORKS AT A JAIL TO WEIGH IN :-). Actually,
you're both right. In forensics we discuss the sociopathic triangle;
fire setting, cruelty to animals, and bed wetting. All three turn up in
many serial killers.
Rich
Susan Maneck wrote:
It seems that sociopaths manifest
Are dependent Manifestations also ruled out during the 1000 years? I
seem to recall banned any new person claiming to have revelation. I
don't remember it only limiting independent manifestations.
Excellent question! We tened to bat that one around ourselves. I stand firmly in the I
It seems to be suggesting that with God, God's speech exists in a form
beyond human language, but when God reveals that word to a particular
culture it comes out with particular sounds and letters in the form of
the scriptures we are familiar with.
Which to me suggest that on some level the Torah
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Dear Rich,
So we were talking about whether the Bahais are taking the Quran and
other sources seriously. You had said that one can take something
seriously while still disagreeing with it.
Yes. I can respect scholarship, but not necessarily agree with the
Gilberto:
In general sure. In this case it's different.
Gilberto,
This, I guess, is none of those areas where we part company. To me
it is no different. I understand that it is to you. You consider Islam
the last revelation, period. I consider Islam another stop on the path
of
Gilberto,
I don't know he seems to be telling us what we believe. Anyway, I'm
refering to my understanding of Sunni beliefs, not which ones I think
Gilberto subscribes to.
Rich
Susan Maneck wrote:
And then on top of that, Sunnis (especially Sufis) still see Ali as a
spiritual successor to
Gilberto:
That is interesting. I've actually heard the opposite view. There is a
saying: "Difference of opinion among the scholars is a mercy". I think
the idea is that the diversity allows for a certain amount of
flexibility. I don't have the exact quote but I think Seyyid
Ok, other than gender (which I would momentarily exclude only because
I've had that argument several times before and I just want to think
about something else) what would be a concrete example of how we need
more revelation due to human imperfection? I guess what would be an
ideal or
Susan,
That's true. Even Ibn Tamiyyah had no trouble with Sufism in the
since. His objection, I believe; and Ghazali's too, was to the Wahad ul
Wajud type of belifs that had developed in some scools.
Rich
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In
a message dated 1/4/2005 5:35:55 P.M. Central
Gilberto,
God can send whatever He likes. Including prophets. Yes he sent
aints and others as well. Many Saints came to Christianity during the
time before Islam, this does not mean that God did not send a Prophet
after them. In the future I believe other Saints and Holy people will
arrise,
away
***Wa la hu al Mashiyyatu *** for With Him is the Will.
s.adaqa al Imam S.aadiq
The Imam S.adiq has spoken the truth
With very warm regards
Dedicated to Rich Ater, Gilberto Simpson, Richard Gravelly, John Smith, and
all others
__
You
I agree. I didn't mean to say that sending saints rules out sending
prophets. I think numerous Islamic texts, both from sunnis and shites
rules out sending more prophets. The reason why I have been mentioning
sainthood (in part) is to show that Muslims still believe in
continuing presence of
Gilberto:
I don't think that among sunnis there is a consensus that ANYONE after
the prophet was infallible. Not even Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman. So I
think that asking about infallibility is the wrong question because
that doesn't allow any difference between Abu Bakr and Ali (from the
sunni
I've read that Ibn Taymiyyah was a Qadri. At the very least he had a
great deal of respect for Abdul-Qadir al-Jilani and called him my
shaykh and refrained from criticizing him.
Gilberto,
That's true. I just finished his Kitab ul Iman and Introduction to
Tafsir as well his treatises
I don't believe that we will ever know everything, it's one of humanity's limitations. This being the case there will always be need of new
teachers and new laqws to fit the times we live in. I guess for me, I see
Islams legal code as being spent in this time. I also see us
Gilberto:
I see your point and would tend to agree with you in
mundane examples
but when you are talking about divine revelation I think
you start to run into problems.
Rich:
How so?
Gilberto:
In the mundane case it is easier to deal with the idea that nothing
Rich:
I think you're skirting the issue here. Sunni's do not believe that the
12 Imams were infallible in there interpretation of the Qur'an or that their
rulings are infallible. Sunnis do not believe that the 12 Imams were the
temporal AND spriritual head of the Ummah.
Gilberto,
Not true. If I praise the grandeur of Rome it does not mean that I
think we should remain ruled by emperors or that if I say that Rome's
time has passed and modern democracy is an improvement that I have
ceased to admire Rome.
Rich
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
On Mon, 27 Dec 2004
But what does that mean exactly? What would be missing? Because the
Shia recognize Ali as the imam. They have Nahjul-Balagha the book of
Ali's letters and sermons, the hadith, the other writings of the
imams. And Even most of the sunni Sufi orders trace their lineage
through Ali (rather than Abu
Gilberto:
Ok, occasionally whole villages get wiped out in modern times as well.
But then I'm a little lost or confused in terms of what you are
saying.
It seems like you are changing the focus and emphasizing the question
of whether or not massacres and genocides occured in the past.
It depends on what you mean by recognize. Even from a Sunni
perspective, Sunnis are supposed to have love for ahl al-bayt. (The
family of Muhammad). So Ali, Hassan, and Hussein, are still beloved
companions who were close to the prophet. Subsequent imams were either
followers or
G
I don't have
trouble with believing that these events may have occurred, considering the
times.
Gilberto:
I don't know what "considering the times" means. I'm not sure how the
passing of time could by itself change the moral status of genocide.
If you
But it does seem to suggest that the previous religions are sufficient
guidance for later times as well.
Except that they were corrupted by the limitations of humanity. As you know,
the Baha'i Faith does tend to side with the Shi'a explanation of things. Since
we are discussing being honest
Gilberto,
I don't think so. Hikmat, from my understasnding means presenting
the Faith from the point of view of timliness and capacity of the
listener, as well as using tact. You brought this up earlier yourself,
in terms of dialogue with other religions. Holy War is forbidden to
Baha'is
Gilberto Simpson wrote:
Dear Rich, I highly respect what you said and would agree with alot of it.
Just a few issues around the question of Biblical corruption:
[2.79] Woe, then, to those who write the
book with their hands and
then say: This is from Allah, so that
Gilberto:
I'm not sure I've read enough of Bahaullah's writings to say that he
gives a particularly deep understanding. Some Bahai interpretations of
Quranic passages I don't find terribly satisfying or super-deep. I
think there are Muslim scholars, especially Sufis and
Gilberto:
I think you have to be careful about how you go about doing it. Bahais
call their belief *progressive* revelation which strongly suggests
that the dispensations of the Bab and then of Bahaullah are somehow
deeper, more complete, more suitable, new and improved, or otherwise
Rich:
That's not quite true. You can do this by being critical of how
Muslims have interpreted the Qur'an.
Gilberto:
I'm not sure what you are saying. What do you mean by "this"?
Gilberto,
I think you probably have a good idea of what I mean by this, but
for
Dear Scott,
That policy doesn't appear until around 1904. The impulse to immigrate to
Palestine doesn't begin until the very end of the 19th century with Theodor
Herzl's zionism which held that Jews needed their own national homeland.
And even he wasn't insistent that it be in Palestine.
Jilla,
My wife and I try to decorate the house with seasonal things.
During the Halloween/Thankgiving season we have autmnal decorations,
like Indian corn and squash. During Christmas /Hannukah we try to use
winter themes. We also try to decorate for Ayyam-i-Ha by putting up
decorations of 9
Very good, not a single Arab will understand you. That is Arabic with a
Persian accent. This is like reading Polish using English
pronunciation. I had an Algerian friend attend a fireside once and one
of the Persian friends got up and said the long healing prayer in
Arabic, when she was done
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