Dan Minette wrote:
...
I was considering it too. But my guess is that American
politicians know that an actual wartime draft would be political
suicide. (And unlike some other countries (e.g. Germany) we don't
have it in our culture to accept a peacetime draft. Maybe if
unemployment
Andrew Crystall wrote:
...
Andy--
I've done a little research, and I still don't buy it.
You do mean EMP, and not HERF? (high-energy radio frequency)
Even then, it doesn't sound like something you can just throw
together in the field.
You do seem to be a bit reticent on the details
Andrew Crystall wrote:
...
Look, I don't want PLANS! I just don't believe you
made it, and you've done nothing to dispel this.
How about 20 questions?
1) Did it use an explosion?
A capacitor. Which expoded once when I was test firing it.
This design flaw fortunately was
Miller, Jeffrey wrote:
...
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/sss092203.html
Hmm.. maybe I'll try to get a spot on the local draft board, just in case...
I was considering it too. But my guess is that American
politicians know that an actual wartime draft would be political
Andrew Crystall wrote:
On 2 Nov 2003 at 22:45, David Hobby wrote:
Andrew Crystall wrote:
...
My reaction to such behavior was to inform the offender sweetly
that if he uses that bullhorn one more time while people (like me)
are trying to sleep,
...
My reaction to s
Andrew Crystall wrote:
...
My reaction to such behavior was to inform the offender sweetly that
if he uses that bullhorn one more time while people (like me) are
trying to sleep,
...
My reaction to s similar incident involved the one and only time I
used an EMP generating device in the
Robert J. Chassell wrote:
...
Do not buy anything with less than a 6 inch (150 mm) aperture (diamter
of the lens or, more likely, main mirror). Smaller telescopes don't
gather enough light, so they are only good with bright objects like
the moon and planets, and even then, they are not so
Matthew and Julie Bos wrote:
My son Nathaniel (6) is asking for a telescope for Christmas this year. I
am looking to spend about 100-150 dollars for it (I have always wanted one
too!). What would be a good new model in that price range? What would be a
good used telescope in that price
...
So what about screen capture utilities?
Microsoft has been making changes in the API's / DirectX to be able to
give programs the ability to prevent this. The framework has been in
place for quite some time.
They can change all they like. As long as it is displayed on the
The Fool wrote:.
My understanding is that only outlook can open these messages. Microsoft
has said it would also provide a small stand alone (DRM) app to open
messages for users of other software.
The Whole point is that it disallows other software from reading it.
So what about
ritu wrote:
The Fool forwarded:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10
/15/wbish15.
xmlsSheet=/news/2003/10/15/ixnewstop.html
Terrorists can have serious moral goals, says Williams
...
So where, when and how does he defend terrorism? I have read the entire
Russell Chapman wrote:
David Hobby wrote:
You don't say if she brews once or twice a day. Unless
she is a purist (whole beans in the freezer, ground fresh each
time), she might be able to use a thermal carafe to save half the
morning coffee to drink at night. Again, depending what a cup
Deborah Harrell wrote:
...
at least with maggots or leeches they eventually
LEAVE your body!
---David
It's not a parasite, it's a symbiote! : )
grin
Well, in most cases the worm eggs have to be taken
every three weeks to keep the disease in remission;
Kevin Tarr wrote:
Change the header if it's wrong. (Could someone list the special headers we
have/use/could use?)
I have never drank coffee, but a relative does. She normally only drinks
two cups, one in the morning and one at night. She buys one shot coffee
pouches. Of course they are
Deborah Harrell wrote:
Among the higher Eeeu!-factor medical treatments
are the use of maggots to clean gangrenous wounds, and
leeches for therapeutic blood reduction; now comes the
lowly pig whipworm for imflammatory bowel
disease(IBD).
Good link. For me, it is grosser than
Andrew Crystall wrote:
On 29 Sep 2003 at 23:37, David Hobby wrote:
destroy by washing machines and dryers. Or how about the printers
that require specific brand ink cartridges that must have a chip
from their own products to work (printer ink is 17 times more
expensive than
Erik Reuter wrote:
On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 12:02:26AM -0400, David Hobby wrote:
Betting that dark glasses really are dark at all reasonable
wavelengths.
You'd lose that bet. Most dark tinted glass passes light above about
1000-1100nm.
Oh. Good to know. Just to clarify
So you think that would be the method? Just pick a wavelength
where glasses/contacts are probably transparent, and work there.
No idea. Like you, I wonder about resolution. It seems it would take
some really good (expensive) optics to get adequate resolution from a
distance.
Julia Thompson wrote:
Catherine:
We just liked the name, and there were a number of options for nicknames
from it, so we could pick one to suit her personality once we had a feel
for it. As it is, my mother is calling her Cathy, I'm calling her
Catherine, and Dan is using one or the other,
The Fool wrote:
their keys,
wouldn't work well if encased in a metal key, and if it is on the
surface it is easy to remove
From my experience they are keys with large black plastic encasings.
Either way, they are required by the new cars to be able to start them.
Yes, but
G. D. Akin wrote:
Wait a minute, I read _Fantastic Voyage_. It was
a year or two before the film came out. Does that count?
Not sure. The Star Wars and Star Trek (and the like) are franchises. Not
really the same as novels that eventually become movies.
But it wasn't. Here's
Jon Gabriel wrote:
Congratulations Julia and Dan!
Welcome too! But the title scares me--let's hope the
group is completely forgotten by the time they grow up...
---David
___
Nick Arnett wrote:
d.brin wrote:
Which is the official one, and what do you think of the split?
Really? Are both active? I was not aware of this.
I will pass this on to the people on the latter of the two, in hopes
they will clarify.
*This* list certainly is active... and
Marc Erickson wrote:
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030515.html
again. Morton's system can identify iris patterns through dark glasses or
contact lenses and can do so almost instantly for thousands of people
Sorry, I don't believe it. I guess you could use infrared
or
G. D. Akin wrote:
Top posting--deliberate.
...
But, give me a break! I asked if the trilogies are worth reading. I get
one non-answer and one, that does say yay or nay, but also informs me of
the perils of CD clubs.
I really expected some worthwhile comments about the trilogies since
David wrote:
Got me, to my knowledge I've never read books set in a
universe created for a film or TV series.
Wait a minute, I read _Fantastic Voyage_. It was
a year or two before the film came out. Does that count?
---David
P.S.
Alberto Monteiro wrote:
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
Who somehow did memorize the quadratic formula...
Can you derive it?
Trivial. I ddn't memorize Cardano's formula, but I can
derive it easily: eliminate term in x^2, x = u + v then
eliminate term with uv.
He did say quadratic,
...
Thinking some more about it, it seems that new forms of math are as likely
a candidate as any for ideas that cannot be expressed symbolically. But,
I've never heard of a mathematical system who's rules exist, but cannot be
described in terms of things already know to other mathematicians.
I'd like to have this over with, because it gets kind of tedious keeping
track of the time of the last N contractions. Of course, in general,
they've been in clusters where they're roughly an hour apart. 12-15
minutes apart is when we head out. The closest 2 were 25 minutes apart,
and
You're given a crossword-puzzle-grid, a list of numbers grouped by the
number of digits in each one and then sorted in numerical order, and one
number placed in the grid. You then try to logically figure out where
each of the rest of the numbers fit in the grid.
...
So, am I nuts? Or just
Julia Thompson wrote:
Jan Coffey wrote:
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But you have to memorize math too - you don't just figure things out
every time you do a problem do you?
Actualy yes, I do.
OK, 2-part question:
1) Did you take Differential Equations?
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 07:49 PM 9/20/03 -0400, David Hobby wrote:
---David
Who somehow did memorize the quadratic formula...
Can you derive it?
-- Ronn! :)
Certainly. Just complete the square
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
Although I realize it's not the point the author of the article was trying
to make, nor the reason it was posted to the list, a question which arises
after reading the article is why there are apparently not any private
schools available which emphasize that their
So, I made it to 37 weeks, and the babies seem to be quite healthy,
which is what we wanted. Now, to just get them *out*
Julia
Good for you! Best wishes for the last big push.
---David
___
Jon Gabriel wrote:
From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Scouted: reconstruction then and now
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 13:37:40 -
David Hobby wrote:
Germany had
Alberto Monteiro wrote:
How can I install Linux if my computer is infected by
a virus called Windows XP?
THe procedure aborted when the partition thing
didn't recognize the HD
It can probably be solved by configuring boot loaders
the right way. Putting Linux on first, and then
Alberto Monteiro wrote:
David Hobby wrote:
Nice find! Germany did have long democratic traditions to
work with, though. It had just momentarily forgotten them. : )
Not that that could happen any place else.
Uh? Long democratic traditions??? Germany was a democracy
from some time
Erik Reuter wrote:
On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 09:47:35AM -0400, David Hobby wrote:
It can probably be solved by configuring boot loaders
the right way. Putting Linux on first, and then making XP
install second would probably work. But I bet there's a better
way...
The problem
Bryon Daly wrote:
...
History never really does fully repeat itself. An American president has
just announced almost a Marshall Plan's worth of spending on a country far
poorer than Germany, two years earlier than Harry Truman did. But Iraq is
far less stable and far more menacing, and the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Nice find! Germany did have long democratic traditions to
work with, though. It had just momentarily forgotten them.
Not that long. Not really.
What, 1848 doesn't count? Well, longer than Iraq,
anyway. : )
---David
Andrew Crystall wrote:
Almost as good as the flying cat...
I'm not familiar with *that* one, but I'm intrigued now.
Want it offlist? (it's 372KB)
Anyone else?
Andy
Dawn Falcon
Maybe. Is it this one?
http://web.ms11.net/kittyclips/catfly.mpeg
(More of a jump, really.)
Damon wrote:
...
Of course I could go on to say that feudalism was an agreement between two
men in which one did service for the other in exchange for land, and has
nothing to do with rulership. But then, I don't think anyone really cares
about history anymore, or getting it right... :(
Damon wrote:
So feudalism was just a lot of private contracts? O.K..
But if one's choice is accept a serfdom contract or starve, isn't
this in fact coercion?
Technically serfdom is outside the bounds of feudalism because a serf does
not do homage or swear fealty for his lands.
Kevin Tarr wrote:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Content/read.asp?ID=55
The Center for the Study of Popular Culture released a report that
documents the stunning bias against conservative viewpoints on college
faculties and speakers platforms. At 32 elite colleges registered Democrats
on the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This seems to do a nice job capturing alot of previous discussion on list
with the addition of some new angles
Dee
Nice article. Thanks!
---David
— ’ “ ” ...
___
What is the smallest known odd perfect number?
Is too! You could prove me wrong? There is a
(large) lower bound, and no known upper bound.
Do you have any idea about this lower bound?
At least 10^300. See section 5 of:
http://www.utm.edu/research/primes/mersenne/
Now, what can you tell me about the number 28?
Julia
It is nominally the number of days in a month.
It is a perfect number, the only even perfect number that
is a multiple of 7. (There are some LARGE odd perfect numbers
that are multiples of 7, but they don't count. : ) )
Alberto Monteiro wrote:
David Hobby wrote about 28:
It is nominally the number of days in a month.
It is a perfect number, the only even perfect number that
is a multiple of 7. (There are some LARGE odd perfect numbers
that are multiples of 7, but they don't count. : ) )
Uh? Really
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
And I happen to be born on the 28th of May...
And I on the 14th of December.
Now, what can you tell me about the number 28?
Julia
...
All that may be true, but it certainly is not a 42, so who cares?
As we have just demonstrated, the
Sorry, just a test. My email is having problems, so
I want to see if this message makes it into the archives.
---David
What, you wanted content?!
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Deborah Harrell wrote:
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Deborah Harrell wrote:
Lo, these many years ago, in college Organic
Chemistry, I and a friend created the 'O-chem
Personality Wheel,' with categories from
Ortho-normal
(your basic staid and sedate microbiology major
...
I'm talking about sobig.f.
I've been noticing that I don't get any messages with it overnight, but
at some point during the morning, I start getting a whole bunch. And
then they drop off suddenly at some point during the evening. Anyone
else seeing this? Anyone *not*
Deborah Harrell wrote:
Lo, these many years ago, in college Organic
Chemistry, I and a friend created the 'O-chem
Personality Wheel,' with categories from Ortho-normal
(your basic staid and sedate microbiology major) on to
Para-normal (included mushroom-tea drinkers) and
Epi-normal
Nick Arnett wrote:
Not sure if we're there yet or not. Somebody post to the list! If I
weren't getting my own messages, this would be easier!
I just got this--I'm posting right back. Yes, I read you
loud and clear... Oops, it's dated Monday.
Horn, John wrote:
An aptitude test to determine whether you now the difference between
a geek and a serial killer:
http://www.malevole.com/mv/misc/killerquiz
I got 6 out of 10.
- jmh
___
http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Robert Seeberger wrote:
I had at least 5 attempts to infect my PC tonight.
Anyone else getting hits?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A16499-2003Aug19?language=printer
New Fast-Spreading Sobig Worm Adds to 'Worm Week'
...
I had about 60 come in, all nicely packaged as
Erik Reuter wrote:
If one examines social realism, one is faced with a choice: either
reject the subcapitalist paradigm of consensus or conclude that culture
is used to reinforce hierarchy,...
You lost me at subcapitalist!
---David
Dan Minette wrote:
...
Mortality studies such as ours do not include cases in which burglars
or
intruders are wounded or frightened away by the use or display of a
firearm.
Cases in which would-be intruders may have purposely avoided a house
known
to be armed are also not
I want the figure, and the plane, and the Evil Saddam Hussein
Underground Fortress, ...
I'd have a blast with the Falling Statue Playset, complete with Falling
Statue Action. As for the Evil Saddam Hussein Underground Fortress, does
it include an escape tunnel?
JJ
I think they
Erik Reuter wrote:
...
The only thing I can think of that might possibly work would be that
each RFID chip delays a random amount of time before responding to a
query from the reader (and this random time changes each time for each
RFID chip that is queried). Then if the reader keeps querying
Robert Seeberger wrote:
...
Evaluating the 43 times fallacy
...a study by Arthur Kellermann and Donald Reay published in the
June 12, 1986 issue of New England Journal of Medicine (v. 314, n. 24, p.
1557-60) which concluded that a firearm in the home is 43 times more
likely to be used to kill
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 06:57 PM 8/8/03 -0400, David Hobby wrote:
The United States should NOT have action
figures of a sitting president.
No, an _action_ figure should be portrayed as standing.
-- Ronn! :)
I swear I've seen a big stone one of Lincoln, sitting
down. You
Jon Gabriel wrote:
And now... an action figure.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?M11532885
Jon
GSV Just Can't Make This Stuff Up
I kept thinking that it MUST be made up. But I still
submitted the following review, which seemed to be a good line
of attack:
This is unprecedented,
Erik Reuter wrote:
...
deaths per hundred
thousand per yearcause
-
870U.S. death rate (total for all causes)
So it would take 100,000 people alive today
100,000/870 = 115 years to all die? That's
No, David, you proved my much larger point.
Congratulations, _you_ are the perfect example for why
the left has no relevance to American politics today.
You pegged it in one - I do say you're an extremist
too. If you really feel that it's reasonable to call
the American flag a symbol of
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yes, I feel it is reasonable to call the US flag a
symbol of hatred, in the sense that many who wave
it most
fervently do so partially out of hate. You seem to
have
removed all of the modifiers from your
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
...
Katha Pollitt, among many other things, famously
forbade her daughter from flying an American flag
after September 11th because it was a symbol of, IIRC,
jingoism and hate.
If that _doesn't_ bother you, then it explains why the
left has no traction in the United
John D. Giorgis wrote:
...
Bob Z. said that no Democrat defended Clinton on this.
In my mind, Bob Z.'s claim is patently absurd. Many Democrats did argue
that any man would lie about adultery, and the only possible reason for
making such a claim was to attempt to mitigate the charges
is an extreme Leftist.
David Hobby is a Leftist.
David Hobby did not criticize Katha Pollit.
Therefore, Leftists do not properly criticize their extremists.
This argument has many flaws, but the most important
one is that I do not have any clear idea of who Katha Pollit
is, and might well have
Jim Sharkey wrote:
Tom wrote:
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
Why does Snape, who clearly abhors Voldemort and all the Death
Eaters, still show any favor at all to Slytherin just because it's
his own house, when it is full of people who at the very least
sympathize with Voldemort?
Ahem. ... You have also forgotten Poland,
which is the second-largest country in Europe
O.K., second in what sense, then? Russia, Sweden, Finland,
Norway... are all bigger by area.
...
Sorry, I stand corrected on that one
...
And despite you snide remarks about
John D. Giorgis wrote:
...
You are kidding about this. We had one true ally in this Britain. The
other are either not major players or are
anxious to please us (not a bad thing.
Ahem. ... You have also forgotten Poland,
which is the second-largest country in Europe
O.K.,
John D. Giorgis wrote:
At 01:08 AM 7/25/2003 -0400 David Hobby wrote:
Why do you think that Osama bin Laden objects to the
same things about American foreign policy that you do?
That's not a fair tactic in an argument.
Actually, I think that it is the most salient thing
Dan Minette wrote:
- Original Message -
From: David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED]
...
No. We are dealing with a pathological minority, backed
up by a large sector of public opinion in the Middle East. If
we clean up our act, public opinion there will change.
I'm in the middle
David Hobby wrote:
The above would have been easier to state if we had general kinship
terms based on degrees of genetic relatedness. Sibling, parent and
child are all halves. Grandparent, grandchild, aunt, uncle, niece,
nephew, half-sibling, and so on are quarters
Julia Thompson wrote:
David Hobby wrote:
The above would have been easier to state if we had general kinship
terms based on degrees of genetic relatedness. Sibling, parent and
child are all halves. Grandparent, grandchild, aunt, uncle, niece,
nephew, half-sibling, and so
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why do you think that Osama bin Laden objects to
the
same things about American foreign policy that you
do?
That's not a fair tactic
John D. Giorgis wrote:
While I am sure that many of you will not support the first half of the proposed
ammendment, (although I would point out that this first half does not rule out civil
unions - such as the ones currently embraced by the gay community in Vermont.)
Nevertheless, I
Brad DeLong wrote:
David said:
If wombats were credible WMD, he would have included them too. : )
...thus giving me the chance to point out that I was responsible for:
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blosxom.cgi/2002/Oct/22#wombat
Rich
VFP A Colder War
Yes, and thank
Jean-Louis Couturier wrote:
At 07:26 2003-07-24 -0400, John D Giorgis posted a text containing the
following:
Gay marriage would cut the final cord that ties marriage to the well-being
of children. It is a step we should not take. Our cultural forgetting of
the meaning of marriage has
Jon Gabriel wrote:
...
Like it or not, if your policies make some people
angry enough to kill themselves to show their displeasure,
you need to rethink your policies. But this is not a very
popular thing to say, and the Left does have some political
sense.
How about killing
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Well, it did do a lot to cause the attack. And not
by harmlessly distributing Britney Spears videos,
either.
Some of being targeted was because America was
walking point
for the West in general. But the US has
Like it or not, if your policies make some people
angry enough to kill themselves to show their displeasure,
you need to rethink your policies. But this is not a very
popular thing to say, and the Left does have some political
sense.
---David
John D. Giorgis wrote:
...
On December 16, 1998, Bill Clinton informed the nation that he had ordered military
action against Iraq. No less than three times Clinton referred to Iraq's nuclear
arms or nuclear program.
Example 1: Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
...
A lot of it probably has to do with collapse of an
ideology. September 11th was the deathknell of the
modern American left. It simply had no meaningful
response to the attack other than to suggest - either
openly or by implication - that the United States had
Chad Cooper wrote:
This is new class of scam. They attempt to get your bank account info to put
the winnings into It is very fraudlent.
NFH
Robert Seeberger wrote:
The scams are getting deep these days
Mr. JANZEN LOT ROBERT
DAYZERS LOTERIJ NL.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
If you're
John D. Giorgis wrote:
One of the original principles of this List is that it should be open to
rough-and-tumble adult conservation. So long as Gautam is employing a
semblance of rasoning and attempting to engage in constructive discussion,
I think that there is nothing wrong with him being
Here's part of a New York Times article, covering claims that
strong enforcement of laws against homosexuality first began
about 100 years ago in America.
Interesting, but I'm not convinced. Comments?
---David
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Since his actions are producing the conditions for
MORE terrorism rather than less, this is asking a
bit much.
THERE IS NO WAR ON TERROR. The United States has
fewer than
1 casualities, civilian and military, since
September
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
Well, I am sorry about that. This is an issue that is
striking a little close to the heart, though. There
is a pervasive dishonesty that has crept into this
issue where we have people actively crippling American
war efforts for short-term partisan advantage - and a
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
So where do you get off claiming that politics must
stop? Is it then unpatriotic to criticize Bush, for
the next
few years of the occupation?
major snip--writing more does NOT mean you are right : )
As for what war - Al Qaeda and its various allies are
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
... I even
called the
US President Mr. Bush, which took great
forbearance.)
If it takes you great forbearance to display that
minimal amount of respect to the President in wartime,
then I'm not the one who needs to get some
perspective, David.
1) It is NOT
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
...
Monica Lewinsky. The most harsh interpretation fo the
facts available is that the Administration honestly
made a claim that has now been called into question.
Not proven false, just called into question. The most
plausible interpretation of the facts available is
Erik Reuter wrote:
... That way we won't get caught in
a loop with me making math mistakes and you saying the result doesn't
make sense to you but you don't want to work out the math.
But actually doing the math makes it like WORK for me. : )
By the way, how did you know, before
Gautam Mukunda wrote:
So your belief, David, is that Saddam Hussein, having
expelled all inspectors from his country, decided
Yes! Now is my opportunity to get rid of all of my
chemical and biological weapons without telling
anybody so that I can keep sanctions on my country.?
Erik Reuter wrote:
...
The same as in case 1.
Yes, I agree.
P/P0 = exp[ - ( h / R )^2 / 3.45 ]
Since h/R = 1/5 = 0.2, P/P0 = 0.988
(Although a pressure of .988 bar seems a bit high--a kilometer of
height makes a much larger pressure difference on Earth.)
As I said
Robert J. Chassell wrote:
We may have interpreted the configuration differently. I interpreted
C as meaning a torus, or donut, or `like the inner tube of a tire'.
Agreed.
The short columns must have the same pressure distribution as
the long columns in the spokes,
Agnostic means not knowing, right? I don't really
see that there is much to DISAGREE with there. You might personally
KNOW, but should be open to the possibility that others don't.
I'm not sure what you are getting at in the last paragraph. Let's change
the topic
Robert J. Chassell wrote:
...
For those figuring out the air pressure question, would there be
differences if
a) the structure was disc like, completely open on the inside
(other than support structures)
b) wheel like, with the rim having air and four (or x) spokes
Ronn!Blankenship wrote:
At 01:23 PM 7/4/03 -0400, David Hobby wrote:
iaamoac wrote:
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If you want a serious discussion of religion, we should
probably all agree to adopt an agnostic viewpoint for the duration
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