+1
Michael Becke wrote:
Given the current ambiguity regarding @author tags I propose that we
suspend their use for contributors without a CLA on file. This is
meant to be a temporary solution until something official is endorsed
by the ASF board.
Mike
be the time to consider replacing code. At least, that is what I
understand of US law (of course, IANAL).
-Eric.
Jeff Dever wrote:
+1
Additionally, we should seek to contact those currently in @author
tags that do not have a CLA on file, and ask permission that they be
removed or to encourage
:Re: @author tags
At the risk of adding fuel to an unproductive discussion, I thought I'd
throw in my comments:
[...snip...]
Having noted some of the social issues, I do have to say that this
mailing list has been very friendly and welcoming, and my compliments to
everyone for keeping
Hello Michael,
I hope this mail is still readable once it is converted
to text-only format...
Fuel to this fire, I think, is fine. Why not talk it out?
Primarily because this mailing list is not for legal discussion,
and we'll never ever talk it out. You are a lawyer, most of us
are not.
Roland Weber wrote:
Hello Eric,
I was thinking about some kind of metrics, too.
Not as advanced as yours, of course :-) But then
I felt that a ranking is not the best approach. It
may lure people to use tricks just to improve
their ranking.
Too true. My perspective on this matter is colored by
the dust settles at
the Jakarta PMC level
Thoughts?
Oleg
-Original Message-
From: Eric Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 14:29
To: Commons HttpClient Project
Subject: Re: @author tags
Roland Weber wrote:
Hello Eric,
I was thinking about some kind
To: Commons HttpClient Project
Subject: Re: @author tags
Fuel to this fire, I think, is fine. Why not talk it out? Why not share
perspectives and information? I have some remarks about what you have
said, that I hope are helpful, see infra:
CAN ANYONE ACTUALLY IDENTIFY A SINGLE LEGAL ISSUE
technical solution.
cheers,
Roland
Eric Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15.03.2004 22:52
Please respond to Commons HttpClient Project
To: Commons HttpClient Project
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject:Re: @author tags
At the risk of adding fuel to an unproductive
Thanks, Roland! You are a balanced mind. Refreshing! I read the IBM and
SCO complaint. There is nothing extra-ordinary about that. If someone
were taking proprietary code and introducing it into open source, that
would be something that should be stopped. The @author tags are not
related
, for this. I see nothing startling or requiring a change in
this sort of suit. That does not seem frivolous or related to the @author
tags in a negative way to me.
be sufficient for the
time being. Until the dust settles at the Jakarta PMC level
Thoughts?
Oleg
-Original Message-
From: Eric Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2004 14:29
To: Commons HttpClient Project
Subject: Re: @author tags
Roland Weber wrote:
Hello Eric,
I
This is a really good idea, Oleg. I am surprised, frankly, that we allow
people to use the @author tags without having signed the agreement
first. That would be a real problem.
At 06:21 AM 3/16/2004, you wrote:
In an attempt to reach a conclusion in this seemingly never-ending and
fruitless
Given the current ambiguity regarding @author tags I propose that we
suspend their use for contributors without a CLA on file. This is
meant to be a temporary solution until something official is endorsed
by the ASF board.
Mike
Hello all,
Michael McGrady wrote:
This is a really good idea, Oleg. I am surprised, frankly, that we
allow
people to use the @author tags without having signed the agreement
first. That would be a real problem.
So that is one of the reasons for this discussion.
If you feel that @authors
+1
On Wed, 2004-03-17 at 03:02, Michael Becke wrote:
Given the current ambiguity regarding @author tags I propose that we
suspend their use for contributors without a CLA on file. This is
meant to be a temporary solution until something official is endorsed
by the ASF board.
Mike
On 17/3/04 12:02 PM, Michael Becke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Given the current ambiguity regarding @author tags I propose that we
suspend their use for contributors without a CLA on file. This is
meant to be a temporary solution until something official is endorsed
by the ASF board.
Mike
At the risk of adding fuel to an unproductive discussion, I thought I'd
throw in my comments:
Legal:
* IANAL, however, it strikes me that there is at least some small
legal exposure in the @author tags. As a contributor of sorts,
but not an official committer, there are certain
Fuel to this fire, I think, is fine. Why not talk it out? Why not share
perspectives and information? I have some remarks about what you have
said, that I hope are helpful, see infra:
CAN ANYONE ACTUALLY IDENTIFY A SINGLE LEGAL ISSUE WITH USING AUTHOR
TAGS? Even though I am a lawyer
does wonders in keeping people honest ...
So it recommends that the author tags be used to indicate code ownership.
I take it your Bravo was meant for the author
of the book _The Pragmatic Programmer_.
Michael McGrady also wrote:
On the first issue, I am a lawyer and I can assure you
a silly thing is a silly thing. If removing author tags may
reduce the risk of being sued, then rip them out.
One reason cited for removing the @author tags is for legal protection --
and it's a good reason. But I don't see how removing @author tags can offer
any legal protection, unless you
, I don't believe that the removal of author tags
is to disguise from where the code came. Rather, some
people may be afraid to find their name in the author tag
of code which has no longer anything to do with what
they actually contributed long ago. Then it would become
their problem to dig through
THE PRACTICAL ASPECT OF THIS DISCUSSION IS AT BEST DUBIOUS
The use of @author tags has a lot more than ownership or braggadocio to
recommend itself to us. When we see certain authors, then we know that we
don't have to double check the code too much. We might even stop for that
reason
Roland Weber and, then, Chris Lamprecht wrote:
a silly thing is a silly thing. If removing author tags may
reduce the risk of being sued, then rip them out.
One reason cited for removing the @author tags is for legal protection --
and it's a good reason. But I don't see how removing @author
Hi all,
I understand that people have a lot to say on this topic, however this is
most definitely not the list to say it on. No one on this list has the
legal authority to represent or make decisions on behalf of the ASF and this
is an ASF decision. The recommendation that author tags
that the removal of author tags
is to disguise from where the code came. Rather, some
people may be afraid to find their name in the author tag
of code which has no longer anything to do with what
they actually contributed long ago.
This is yet another reason? This is also not right. The @author tags
discouraged.
Lets just accept that author tags are discouraged and
go on to discuss whether there are good reasons to keep
them anyway.
Michael, thank you for bringing a new non-legal aspect
into this discussion:
When we see certain authors, then we know that we
don't have to double check
:38
To: Commons HttpClient Project
Subject: Re: @author tags
Roland Weber wrote:
I don't see that either. But if some of the top Apache guys
feel, believe or know otherwise, that's good enough for me.
Know what? This has become a recreation of illusions and delusions. This
is like Franz Kafka's
Actually Roland shines when it comes to giving feedback to proposed
changes, patches, answering questions, and helping people on the
mailing. He is precisely the reason I (as a HttpClient project
committer) would like to have a better attribution structure that goes
beyond @author tag. The
You are not likely to get a replacement mechanism from the Board. You
*might* from the PMC, but that will be driven from the project level up,
as the PMC is composed of a sampling of committers.
If HttpClient comes up with an alternative, I could present it to the
PMC and it could become the
. The recommendation that author tags not be used came
down from the board of the ASF which does have the ability to make such
decisions, nothing we say here will change that.
I certainly don't intend to tell people not to voice their opinions on this
matter, every decision in the ASF can potentially
Roland Weber wrote:
The ASF has recently recommended that we discontinue use of @author
tags.
For me, that is reason enough to remove the author tags
in the absence of better reasons to keep them. I trust the
ASF implicitly to have discussed this matter thoroughly.
If I didn't trust them, I'd
Subject: Re: @author tags
Roland Weber wrote:
I don't see that either. But if some of the top Apache guys
feel, believe or know otherwise, that's good enough for me.
Know what? This has become a recreation of illusions and delusions. This
is like Franz Kafka's book The Trial. There are vague
We all love Roland.
I am glad we are in agreement here.
However, I really cannot see how the
@author tag hides any contributions. Maybe on that issue I am lost?
It does not. However, I strongly believe that @author tags have many deficiencies in
representing individual contributions
and this
is an ASF decision. The recommendation that author tags not be used came
down from the board of the ASF which does have the ability to make such
decisions, nothing we say here will change that.
I certainly don't intend to tell people not to voice their opinions on this
matter, every decision
. The recommendation that author tags not be used
came
down from the board of the ASF which does have the ability to make such
decisions, nothing we say here will change that.
I certainly don't intend to tell people not to voice their opinions
on this
matter, every decision in the ASF can
I'm currently reading _The Pragmatic Programmer_, and I just came across the
following in a section entitled Comments in Code on page 250:
One of the most important pieces of information that should appear in the
source file is the author's name -- not necessarily who edited the file
last, but
,
Roland
Chris Lamprecht [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11.03.2004 09:54
Please respond to Commons HttpClient Project
To: Commons HttpClient Project
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc:
Subject:Re: @author tags
I'm currently reading _The Pragmatic Programmer_, and I just came across
. It belongs to the ASF.
So to follow the Pragmatic Programmer, only the ASF should be listed
as the owner, which makes @author tags useless, and confusing from a
legal perspective. The copyright statement at the top of every source
file attributes ownership to the ASF. Removal of the @author
should be listed
as the owner, which makes @author tags useless, and confusing from a
legal perspective. The copyright statement at the top of every source
file attributes ownership to the ASF. Removal of the @author tags is
supposed to help protect those listed as @authors legal entanglements
Dan Christopherson wrote:
I think that owner is intended in the sense of the primary person
responsible for maintaining, not in the sense of the legel owner.
Honestly, there is no such thing in this project. The responsible
persons are the (few) active committers. Those change (slowly) over
]
cc:
Subject:Re: @author tags
I'm currently reading _The Pragmatic Programmer_, and I just came across
the
following in a section entitled Comments in Code on page 250:
One of the most important pieces of information that should appear in the
source file is the author's name
). The individual contributor has contributed the code, and does need
to be recognized, but when a commit is made that code no longer belongs to
them. It belongs to the ASF.
So to follow the Pragmatic Programmer, only the ASF should be listed as
the owner, which makes @author tags useless
to be recognized, but when a commit is made that code no longer
belongs to them. It belongs to the ASF.
So to follow the Pragmatic Programmer, only the ASF should be listed as
the owner, which makes @author tags useless, and confusing from a legal
perspective. The copyright statement at the top
Fair point. ASF is the legal owner, not the maintainer. But @author
tags do not help in identifying the maintainer at all for many reasons.
A maintainer really implies one place or person for contact. A running
list of @author tags, some current some ancient, do not satisfy this.
The only
I'm not on the board, but I'm aware of two issues:
1) The ASF board has concerns over the legal ramifications of @author
tags in code. IE it might be possible for someone to sue someone listed
as an @author.
2) The tags have caused social issues in some projects (conflicts
between people) which
, you wrote:
I'm not on the board, but I'm aware of two issues:
1) The ASF board has concerns over the legal ramifications of @author
tags in code. IE it might be possible for someone to sue someone listed
as an @author.
2) The tags have caused social issues in some projects (conflicts
between
Michael Becke wrote:
The ASF has recently recommended that we discontinue use of @author
tags. When first starting out I always enjoyed seeing my name in
lights, though I do agree with the ASF's opinion on this matter. If
we come to a consensus to remove @authors I suggest that we remove
I agree that removing author tags eliminates one of the big attractions
for casual contributors. To compensate we should definitely be more
proactive about giving people credit in other ways. Perhaps we can
come up with a more automated way of showing contributions. Any ideas?
Perhaps we
also imagine some sort of 'thank you' page listing individuals with their
respective contributions. Again, it just takes a bit more discipline on our part.
The real question is what is to be done with all the contributions made up to now.
Simply stripping away @author tags without giving the due
Kalnichevski, Oleg wrote:
I could also imagine some sort of 'thank you' page listing individuals with their respective contributions.
The real question is what is to be done with all the contributions made up to now.
Yes, let's just put together that 'thank you' page (think of it like the
into some details to make such a 'thank you'
page meaningful.
Just a wild thought: what if we abandoned @author tags simultaneously with the planned
4.0 rewrite, compiling the 'thank you' list as the bits of code get migrated from the
old jakarta-commons tree into (if that works out, of course
motivating factor for casual contributions. But I will not
object
Oleg
On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 04:32, Michael Becke wrote:
The ASF has recently recommended that we discontinue use of @author
tags. When first starting out I always enjoyed seeing my name in
lights, though I do agree with the ASF's opinion
My understanding of human psychology leads me to think that whomever came
up with this idea has underestimated the importance of the @author tags to
the open source community.
At 09:49 AM 3/10/2004, you wrote:
Michael, are you saying that removing @author tags would be a mistake?
What
As far as timing goes, we can be pretty flexible I think. My preference
would be to stop adding author tags now and begin putting people on a
thank you list. We can then migrate existing @authors when the time
seems right, (i.e. whenever someone gets stuck doing it).
Sounds like
the importance of the
@author tags to the open source community.
At 09:49 AM 3/10/2004, you wrote:
Michael, are you saying that removing @author tags would be a
mistake? What in particular worries you? In what way do you think it
would bite us on the butt?
Mike
Michael McGrady wrote:
I
I don't think that the final word has been said on the use of @author
tags by the PMC. At the moment, discouraged seems to be more of a
suggestion than a requirement. It is unclear on what benefit removing
the tags will have, from a legal perspective. It is also my feeling
that if we
To make it easier for us, we could even have people compose and maintain
their own list of contributions.
Ortwin Glück wrote:
Yes, let's just put together that 'thank you' page (think of it like the
credits of movie). The question is if we just want to list the names or
if we actually want to
The ASF has recently recommended that we discontinue use of @author
tags. When first starting out I always enjoyed seeing my name in
lights, though I do agree with the ASF's opinion on this matter. If
we come to a consensus to remove @authors I suggest that we remove them
from all existing
I personally regret this decision. I feel the author tag may be pretty
much the only motivating factor for casual contributions. But I will not
object
Oleg
On Wed, 2004-03-10 at 04:32, Michael Becke wrote:
The ASF has recently recommended that we discontinue use of @author
tags. When first
On 10/3/04 5:02 PM, Oleg Kalnichevski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I personally regret this decision. I feel the author tag may be pretty
much the only motivating factor for casual contributions. But I will not
object
I'm a big fan of author tags (I like to know who to blame mostly :). I
won't
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