On Tue, Jul 02 2019, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On 2019/07/02 11:26, Marc Haber wrote:
>> I do feel significantly less welcome in Debian since diversity /
>> antiharassment / policitcal correctnes / CoC came around the corner.
>
> How so regarding diversity/antiharassment/CoC? They do nothing to
>
On 7/1/19 9:10 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
Zlatan Todoric writes:
In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is
basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things
that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride
Month is in my opinion
> On 2 Jul 2019, at 14:53, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
>
> In fact, I agree that the Publicity Team should normally be trusted to
> do the right thing.
Can we just settle on this and move on with our lives?
Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý
ond...@sury.org
Hi all,
Le Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:25:41AM +0100, Colin Watson a écrit :
>
> point out that, on average, members of those groups have an easier time
Le Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 03:26:37PM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit :
>
> if there are gestures we could make that would make those people feel
>
Marc Haber writes:
> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 10:35:21AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
>> How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their
>> skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their
>> appearance?
>
> Does having a "month of welcome" for
Il giorno lun 1 lug 2019 alle ore 18:24 Russ Allbery
ha scritto:
> That said, how *do* you want to handle this, assuming that other people in
> the project do want to acknowledge important events for our community
> members? For example, Debian has made note of Diwali in the past in
> various
Jonathan Carter - 02.07.19, 10:54:
> On 2019/07/02 10:35, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of
> > their
> > skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints,
> > their appearance?
> >
> > How about "all is welcome here"?
>
feel
> aggrieved by the promotion of other identities and appearances take a
> step back and try to think about why you're aggrieved. Are you
> really being systematically underprivileged in the sorts of ways that
> other groups often are? […]
Rather than assuming on what I could mean
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 11:07:39AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> Actually I felt something like similar like this myself before (not
> related to the pridemonth thing). There still a lot of oppression of
> women and a lack of progress on equal pay for equal work and so on… I
> acknowledge
Marc Haber writes:
> Why dont we just welcome people based on the technology they care for?
To bring an example from my own professional work (astrophysics):
At the 233th conference of the American Astronomical Society (AAS), Jan
2019, there was a plenary talk by Caitlin Casey, Assistant
On 2019/07/02 11:26, Marc Haber wrote:
> I do feel significantly less welcome in Debian since diversity /
> antiharassment / policitcal correctnes / CoC came around the corner.
How so regarding diversity/antiharassment/CoC? They do nothing to
threaten or downgrade the importance of any Debian
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 10:24:33PM +0200, Karsten Merker wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 09:24:34AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > Gerardo Ballabio writes:
> [...]
> > > And I don't think that this is, or should be, within the bounds of the
> > > Publicity Team delegation.
> >
> > I think this
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 10:54:08AM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On 2019/07/02 10:35, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their
> > skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their
> > appearance?
> >
> > How
Marc Haber - 02.07.19, 11:06:
> On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 10:35:21AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of
> > their
> > skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints,
> > their appearance?
>
> Does having a "month of
Martin Steigerwald - 02.07.19, 10:35:
> Russ Allbery - 02.07.19, 00:26:
> > Adrian Bunk writes:
> > > It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from
> > > being welcomed.
> > >
> > > Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?
> >
> > Do you think people with those
On Tue, Jul 02, 2019 at 10:35:21AM +0200, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their
> skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their
> appearance?
Does having a "month of welcome" for $GROUP not imply that we're
On 2019/07/02 10:35, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> How about a month of welcoming *all* contributors regardless of their
> skin color, their sexual orientation, their political viewpoints, their
> appearance?
>
> How about "all is welcome here"?
That's basically our default state, so you could
Russ Allbery - 02.07.19, 00:26:
> Adrian Bunk writes:
> > It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from
> > being welcomed.
> >
> > Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?
>
> Do you think people with those attributes have been made
> systematically unwelcome in
On 01/07/2019 19:22, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
> Adrian> dangerous.
>
> Absolutely.
> I think that each time we should link what we're doing back to our goal
> of making a great free software operating system for our users.
>
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 5:24 PM Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> > "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle writes:
>
> Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater
> wrote:
> >>
> Eldon>
> >> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
> >> deeply, sadly, ironic
> "Eldon" == Eldon Koyle writes:
Eldon> On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater
wrote:
>>
Eldon>
>> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
>> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
>> pridemeonth in mails
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 12:49 PM Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:
>
> Regardless of what some folk say about pridemonth - it is deeply,
> deeply, sadly, ironic and painful that folk are arguing about
> pridemeonth in mails interleaved even as a valued contributor announces
> she is trans.
>
> Tina -
Eldon Koyle writes:
> I think a big part of the issue here is the fact that by changing the
> logo for only one group ever (presumably for one month out of every
> year?), all other groups are marginalized.
Huh, why?
Organizations to which I belong celebrate all sorts of groups all the time
On Mon, Jul 1, 2019 at 10:24 AM Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> Gerardo Ballabio writes:
>
> > Clearly, there must be a prior assessment that any particular group's
> > values are aligned with Debian's values.
>
> Sure, of course.
>
> > And I don't think that this is, or should be, within the bounds of
Adrian Bunk writes:
> It is also a meaningful gesture if some people are excluded from being
> welcomed.
> Would Debian honor a month of white heterosexual men?
Do you think people with those attributes have been made systematically
unwelcome in Debian, free software, or the larger world of
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 10:10:53AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Adrian Bunk writes:
>
> > Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?
>
> Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful
> to them. To me, this is like asking why Debian should be
Zlatan Todoric writes:
> In my opinion, and as Russ explained about becoming political is
> basically unavoidable, I would be actually up for celebrating things
> that can (should?) be worldwide celebrated - community celebrating Pride
> Month is in my opinion a worldwide community. Celebrating
On 01/07/2019 18:22, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk writes:
>
> >> and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find
> >> the most meaningful within the Debian context.
>
> Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
>
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 07:40:23PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> The easy way would be if Debian would consider itself a purely technical
> project and abstain from making any political statements, except ones
> strongly related to being a Linux distribution.
Yes please! Let's keep Debian about
> "Adrian" == Adrian Bunk writes:
>> and so forth, since they're the experts on what they would find
>> the most meaningful within the Debian context.
Adrian> Debian having a position on general political issues can be
Adrian> dangerous.
Absolutely.
I think that each time
Hi Russ, others,
I must admit that I do support Pride Month but I was a bit uncomfortable
that this was not discussed among wider Debian community. More on points
below!
On 7/1/19 7:10 PM, Russ Allbery wrote:
Adrian Bunk writes:
Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific
Adrian Bunk writes:
> Why should Debian honor people in the US of one specific race?
Because they are part of our community and the gesture would be meaningful
to them. To me, this is like asking why Debian should be acknowledge the
death of a contributor, or why Debian should congratulate a
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:59:36AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez writes:
>
> > Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
> > not sure about international observances). Perhaps Debian could make a
> > public show of support for those of Hispanic
Gerardo Ballabio writes:
> Clearly, there must be a prior assessment that any particular group's
> values are aligned with Debian's values.
Sure, of course.
> And I don't think that this is, or should be, within the bounds of the
> Publicity Team delegation.
I think this is probably the place
Hi Gerardo,
> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it was
> a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as meaning that
> there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was ok.
I am currently in a dangerous position to utter anything that is not in
line with
> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it was
> a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as meaning that
> there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was ok.
>
> Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion.
> Gerardo
>
Hi Gerardo,
I was
On Mon, Jul 01, 2019 at 08:37:13AM +0200, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
>
> On the other hand, nobody but me has spoken openly to say that it was
> a mistake to issue that statement. So I'm taking that as meaning that
> there is indeed a project-wide consensus that it was ok.
I do not consider it a
(Sorry to break the thread, but I wasn't Cc:d this message)
Russ Allbery wrote:
> So, we should look to our LGBTQ project members to decide what Debian should
> do for Pride, to our Hispanic members to decide what Debian should do for
> Hispanic Heritage Month, and so forth, since they're the
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 02:09:49PM +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54:34AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> > Agreed. This is as uncomplicated as the suggestions I made above for
> > Debian to show solidarity with similarly affected groups. I hope that
> > we can do that
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 8:10 PM Marc Haber wrote:
> Can we probably find consensus abut having one "Free Software Month" in
> the year?
I think it would be great to co-ordinate a "Free Software Month" with
the wider Free Software community.
Debian has participated in the FSFE's "I ♥ Free
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 11:59:36AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Roberto C. Sánchez writes:
>
> > Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
> > not sure about international observances). Perhaps Debian could make a
> > public show of support for those of Hispanic
Roberto C. Sánchez writes:
> Hispanic Heritage Month is coming in a few months (at least in the US,
> not sure about international observances). Perhaps Debian could make a
> public show of support for those of Hispanic origin (who tend to be
> drastically underrepresented in the community).
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:30 AM Jonathan Carter wrote:
>
> On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> > events with a definite political
>> 3. what aspect of the political connotation of Pride Month you find
>> objectionable, if any.
>3. This is something I don't really think is on-topic on this list, or
>in Debian at large. However, since you asked, I especially find
Hi.
I think your first inclination was right. I don't think
Il giorno ven 28 giu 2019 alle ore 12:45 G. Branden Robinson
ha scritto:
> Can you please articulate:
> 1. what the definite political connotation of Pride Month is (feel free
> to cite a representative source);
> 2. how it is in conflict with the position statement at the official
> project URL
On 28 Jun 2019, at 15:55, Sam Hartman wrote:
>> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez writes:
>
>Roberto> It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to
>Roberto> conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such. However,
>Roberto> the start of the thread was practically
> "Roberto" == Roberto C Sánchez writes:
Roberto> It does not seem that anything was done with the intent to
Roberto> conceal the action, nor do I mean to imply such. However,
Roberto> the start of the thread was practically invisible
Roberto> (especially for someone
Thanks for answering that specific question. I did indeed miss that.
Replying separately to the other posters.
Gerardo
Il giorno ven 28 giu 2019 alle ore 14:56 Sam Hartman
ha scritto:
>
> Hi.
> Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has
> already been covered.
>
>
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 08:56:03AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Hi.
> Responding only to one thing at this time, and apologies if it has
> already been covered.
>
> This was discussed by the debian publicity team who is delegated to do
> this sort of thing. In particular, they are charged by the
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 07:54:34AM -0400, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> Agreed. This is as uncomplicated as the suggestions I made above for
> Debian to show solidarity with similarly affected groups. I hope that
> we can do that with the same enthusiasm as in this instance. There are
> sure to
On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 12:29:55PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
> On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> > I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> > thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> > events with a definite political
At 2019-06-28T11:48:18+0200, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> Hello all,
> I've just seen this on https://micronews.debian.org/ :
>
> "In support of #pridemonth, Debian changes its website logo. The
> Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone
>
On 2019/06/28 11:48, Gerardo Ballabio wrote:
> I do not think that this is appropriate. Welcoming diversity is one
> thing, supporting pridemonth is another thing. Pridemonth is a set of
> events with a definite political connotation. I don't think that
> Debian should take sides on any specific
Hello all,
I've just seen this on https://micronews.debian.org/ :
"In support of #pridemonth, Debian changes its website logo. The
Debian Project welcomes and encourages participation by everyone
https://www.debian.org/intro/diversity "
May I please ask who decided that and where was it
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