Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create > des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list) > > Hello! > > I woke up today, with the first thing on my todo list: submit a > ticket to create a design@ML account. (Sry Kxepal!) > > But then, I did not expect all the responses :) &

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Hit send too soon, see below - Original Message - > From: "Joan Touzet" <woh...@apache.org> > To: dev@couchdb.apache.org > Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2015 10:39:01 PM > Subject: Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create > des...@couchdb.ap

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Thanks Robert, will study) What I discovered so far is that philosophy papers on OSS is very har to find. It is as if OSS would be an insulated human space and had its own philosophical basis. I would expect that the various streams of philosophy and ideology that tend to govern our thinking

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Hi Johs, there is some more material I know of which completes the talk from Isaac. - A talk which tries to take a look what motivates people in Open Source and what happens when at some point some people are paid to do certain tasks in the project [1] - The book "Producing Open Source

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Hi Jan, could you share the conclusion on your #1? I would guess #1 and #3 need to work together since it is a bit hard to have one rule for dealing with bad ideas and another for dealing with good ideas. johs > On 15. sep. 2015, at 12.21, Jan Lehnardt wrote: > >> 1. we

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

+1 Jason :) Especially: someone wrote it in their spare time, spent the whole night on it, and feels really miserable the day after. On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Jason Smith wrote: > Thanks, Jan. > > On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Jan Lehnardt

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Robert, the video that you recommended caught my interest and I saw the whole thing trough again and took a closer into the philosophy behind it. The NVC ideology didn't pass my standards, I am afraid. The danger of totally abandoning the concept of objective truth is that you end up with

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

>> feedback you get is something like "that won't work" and then you are >> suddenly in the position where you have to defend the idea > > Then do defend. > > Idea that breaks on first aside doubt or uncomfortable question/comment > worth even less then zero. Just because it have taken resources

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Thanks all for participating, let’s keep going, I just want to put up a new ruls for this thread: 1. we already know how to deal with bad ideas in a friendly manner, completely ignore this aspect of the discussion. 2. don’t try to find a theoretical loophole in the “Yes, and…”-style (or

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> On 15 Sep 2015, at 12:18, Jan Lehnardt wrote: > > Thanks all for participating, let’s keep going, I just want to put up a new > ruls for this thread: * new rules > > 1. we already know how to deal with bad ideas in a friendly manner, > completely ignore this aspect of

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Thanks, Jan. On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote: > > 3. if you disagree with employing a “Yes, and…”-style in the CouchDB > community, make a counter proposal that you think gets us to a better > culture. > TL;DR = We are doing that; but what is "better"? To

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Thanks for the explanation. I don't think there is anything dramatical if someone says that idea is bad, expect if there are no arguments provided. But in anyway. this doesn't mean that you should fall into deep well of depression, go for the vodka and end your day in some dark empty room with

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:15, ermouth wrote: > > Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like “Starting post > with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of contributors > with this. > > As for me the only desire after reading this is not to

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way > If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness is only allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> On 14 Sep 2015, at 14:42, ermouth wrote: > >> I’m suggesting a way how we can adopt a proven way >> If that makes you want to unsubscribe, farewell. > > That is exactly what I called iron ordnung. Extreme unfriendliness is only > allowed for your here, Jan. The one thing I

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Well, next good step is to write it in CoC. Something like “Starting post with ‘But’ is unwelcomed here’. You surely attract tons of contributors with this. As for me the only desire after reading this is not to subscribe, but to unsubscribe. Imposed iron ordnung is surely far more uncomfortable,

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Of course, this could have gone this way: “That’s an interesting approach, is there more literature on how and why this is supposed to work?” “Here’s a bunch of links: …” “Gotcha, the one thing I fear now is that people are afraid to say ‘but’, or take a contrarian position in general. How can

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> On 14 Sep 2015, at 12:08, Alexander Shorin wrote: > > Hi Jan > > On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote: >> We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like that we >> are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. > > Could you

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> I think it comes back to trust, if we all trust each other > that we have the best of the project in mind If @kxepal says there is no activity in www@ – he is right. Facts are stubborn things. If he predicts there will be no users in design@ with current approach – he is right. I can‘t imagine

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Hello! I woke up today, with the first thing on my todo list: submit a ticket to create a design@ML account. (Sry Kxepal!) But then, I did not expect all the responses :) It is a pleasant surprise for one of my proposal to generate so many emails. It means that the community is *active*, and

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? I think the "yes-and" style is more about continuing the momentum of the conversation, and also having fun! The "yes-and" style is independent of your opinion about the matter, or the facts of its consequences. To me, it is about being Socratic: say

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> I am sorry Cloudant broke somethings of yours. We were trying to make things safer. We did not mean to intentionally break anything. Thank you, Michelle, it‘s all quiet obvious. The problem is not in bug itself, it‘s not so severe. Problem is in support, that said ‘We know about the bug, but

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? Sorry, I played Civilization. What I learned was that saying ‘No’ at right moment is much more important to have excellent score, then saying ‘Yes’ each time ) > For example, in the oauth2 discussion As for oAuth, I think @CouchDB has a lot of

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Oh wow, so much feedback! I think Jason and Jan (and also me with my initial post) are trying to advocate a more positive way of giving feedback. I would really recommend this talk which explains a lot of Human-Human interactions in communities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSv7GIX-XQ0 I

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> On 14 Sep 2015, at 18:49, ermouth wrote: > >> Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? > > Sorry, I played Civilization. What I learned was that saying ‘No’ at right > moment is much more important to have excellent score, then saying ‘Yes’ > each time ) > >> For

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> I already know the answer :) I think I also know, but I‘m not sure. Many devs tend to be introverts and say nothing until asked explicitly. Direct question can uncover a lot of interesting things. > Also, why didn’t you bring that up in that thread? Mea culpa, I read that thread thoroughly

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> On 14 Sep 2015, at 19:17, ermouth wrote: > >> I already know the answer :) > > I think I also know, but I‘m not sure. Many devs tend to be introverts and > say nothing until asked explicitly. Direct question can uncover a lot of > interesting things. I’m in touch with a

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> Btw. did you see the video? What do you think? I saw it before. Speech is good, font might be fr better ) But I can hardly co-ordinate it with current situation. > feedback you get is something like "that won't work" and then you are > suddenly in the position where you have to defend the

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:49 PM, ermouth wrote: > > Have you ever played "Dungeons and Dragons"? > > Sorry, I played Civilization. What I learned was that saying ‘No’ at right > moment is much more important to have excellent score, then saying ‘Yes’ > each time ) > :)

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> I find "yes-and" to be a fun and relaxed style I must admit, I also find it very funny sometimes ) Proposed ‘Yes, and’ as enforced opening phrase for comments, see sibling thread. We can even allow authors to select comments policy, like ‘Allow any comments’, ‘Force all comments start with

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

I am normally only reading here and write really rarely but this discussion is super interesting for me. I work with a lot of teams, many of them early stage startups, teams that don't know each other very well and are super motivated but have no clear structure yet on how to work together on a

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Thanks for this video, Robert Very interesting, any other input like this that captures knowhow about how to make OSS communities productive and compassionate would be highly appreciated Johs > On 14. sep. 2015, at 19.35, Robert Kowalski wrote: > > I would really recommend

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

That was not was I was pointing out, please read my mail at [1] again, I mentioned: - making proposals _in general_ is hard and the feedback is not encouraging, because of the way feedback is given - feedback is sometimes not very constructive, and requires a few other persons that step in to

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

> a more positive way of giving feedback Ok, lets build a tree to compare sugar floods with reality ) 1. Michelle proposed design@ ML, good intention – but no realistic plan. 1. Everybody agree, ML created, and dies right after birth for well seen reasons. 2. Someone says ‘We

“Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Hey all, here is something that we agreed to do on this list, multiple times, and it seems we are missing to keep this up as a culture. We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like that we are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. So, again, the ground rules for discussing

Re: “Yes, and…”, not “But…” (Was: [PROPOSAL] Create des...@couchdb.apache.org mailing list)

Hi Jan On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Jan Lehnardt wrote: > We agreed on a “Yes and…”-style of feedback, and it looks like that we > are defaulting to a “But…”-style feedback. Could you explain what are "Yes and..." and "But..." feedback styles and how they are different?