Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I'm definitely not an expert in this area, but want to share some thoughts: 1) If this group wants to be open and transparent then the number of mailing lists will not matter. Trolls will find any public mailing list. Well-intentioned newbies will not understand which list to choose from.

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

I alluded to this elsewhere, but I would welcome feedback on whether this perspective is relevant. It hinges on whether the ASF's mission is to provide software *that is a public good* in the technical economics sense (non-excludable non-rivalrous) or software *for the public good* (aka the

Re: Resources Wiki page?

Hi Patricia, +1 to the wiki page with resources. Thanks for taking the initiative to get this started. Craig > On May 13, 2019, at 3:51 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > > > > On 5/13/2019 1:29 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: >> I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

I think the point was not that the FAQ needed those things, but the ASF at large :D and that the different way of phrasing it was intended to draw attention to all of those things. -Joan On 2019-05-13 6:45 p.m., Patricia Shanahan wrote: I would love truly elegant documentation. However, I am

Re: Resources Wiki page?

On 5/13/2019 1:29 PM, Patricia Shanahan wrote: I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both my own studying and for use in the FAQ. Would you like me to start a Resources page in the Wiki, to preserve these items?

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

The "Open Source Diversity" site[1] that Shane mentioned elsethread led me to the "Contributor Covenant" site[2] which also has a FAQ[3] which, in my limited experience, seems pretty good and is "CC BY 4.0 License" [4] Niall [1] https://opensourcediversity.org/ [2]

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

I would love truly elegant documentation. However, I am neither a Confluence expert nor a graphic designer. As you say, it needs a community. Perhaps people who are good at graphic design could create frameworks for the FAQ and Resources? Should each of them, long term, be Wiki pages or pages

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

On 13/05/2019 18.03, Matt Sicker wrote: This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community! I'd add non-shitty code to that as well

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 8:45 PM Griselda Cuevas wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I agree with Naomi that there are two "personas" who might be interested in > our work > > A) the ones who want to learn > B) the ones championing work > Also hopefully people in A move to B - perhaps a good reason for a

Re: [FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

This might be slightly inflammatory, but how about this: do you want non-shitty documentation? How about graphics and logos? Maybe a nice website? Or some helpful users for support? Hard to do without community! On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 15:14, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > The first and most

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

And patience is fairly difficult when dealing with obvious concern trolls. That has been especially annoying on members@, board@, etc, where we’re supposed to assume good faith. However, only one side in the game takes a loss when doing so in an iterated game. I’d rather not summarize the

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

As a project, it could use dev@ and user@ like typical projects. User list for questions, dev list for research and actions. It sort of makes sense. On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 16:23, Joan Touzet wrote: > On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote: > > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

On 2019-05-13 16:37, Griselda Cuevas wrote: > Teaching by preaching is what will earn us respect, credibility and > authority to speak of this topic. Gris, can I ask what you mean by "preaching" in this context? For me this has a very negative connotation and feels out of place in a secular

Re: Resources Wiki page?

+1 on the Wiki page. There were even more resources shared in multiple threads on the topic, and it would be great if we could keep them in one place, and be able to refer others. Thank you tons for doing this, Patricia. *From: *Patricia Shanahan *Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019 at 3:30 PM *To: * I

Re: Resources Wiki page?

+1 I have also shared some reading material and will be happy to share here later today. *From: *Patricia Shanahan *Date: *Mon, May 13, 2019, 3:30 PM *To: * I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both > my own studying and for use in the FAQ. > > Would you like me

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I respectfully disagree on the need to split two sets of people. We need to exercise patience regardless of our backgrounds (I am personally very empathetic of everyone who has fought this battle and has lost or has been hurt), I understand is not easy, but we are also not alone. Teaching by

Resources Wiki page?

I have started gathering some of the links people have posted for both my own studying and for use in the FAQ. Would you like me to start a Resources page in the Wiki, to preserve these items? TED talk on unconcious bias:

[FAQ] Proto-FAQ question 1

The first and most important question is something along the lines of: -- Q: Apache does everything by e-mail. I do not know or care about the race, ethnicity, gender, age, weight, or any other personal characteristics of other

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I think there is already evidence that we need separate lists. We have two populations that need to be kept apart: 1. People who are so sick of answering the same questions time after time that they are unlikely to exercise patience, tact, and diplomacy when faced with them yet again on their

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

Hi everyone, I agree with Naomi that there are two "personas" who might be interested in our work A) the ones who want to learn B) the ones championing work For A) I'd suggest we publish a FAQs in the wiki as Joan suggested for now. I'm a +1 for Patricia to start curating the FAQ content and

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

-0 on separate lists until we need them rather than think we will. -1 on diveristy-action as a name, as we are seeing people worry that D means creating rules and regulations by which others must conform. This creates tension and defensive behavior. The word "action" will reinforce this

Re: Outreachy Internships can Improve Diversity at The ASF

I'd like to take this opportunity to introduce @Carol Smith who joined the list at my request. Carol is a day job colleague, different teams, Carol is in the Open Source Programs Office, I'm in Azure, but we cross often when it comes to broad open source strategy.

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

On 5/13/19 2:37 PM, Naomi Slater wrote: apologies for the second follow up. two things: 1) it's not really even about bifuricating "the community". it's about the fact that there are two groups of people here: the people who want to get D work done, and the people who want to learn about D

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I am going to start the FAQ discussion, using [FAQ] as tag, without waiting for a new list, but will move it if and when there is a more appropriate mailing list. Meanwhile, I have a radical alternative suggestion on mailing list names. No matter what we do, I am afraid you will get the

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

apologies for the second follow up. two things: 1) it's not really even about bifuricating "the community". it's about the fact that there are two groups of people here: the people who want to get D work done, and the people who want to learn about D work (or challenge that work) 2) perhaps

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

erm, "this isn't an appropriate list for this thread, ..." On Mon, 13 May 2019 at 20:31, Naomi Slater wrote: > I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address > here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see > a lot of threads that may

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I don't think that a [FAQ] tag solves the problem we're trying to address here. which, as far as I understand it, is that this list is likely to see a lot of threads that may ultimately hamper the work we're trying to accomplish in a sense, we *want* to bifurcate the community. i.e., we want to

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

+1 to not another list, use subject tag "[FAQ]" From: Bertrand Delacretaz Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 10:30 AM To: diversity@apache.org Subject: Re: FAQ and education mailing list Hi, On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan wrote: > ...I don't want my

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

Hi, On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 5:19 PM Patricia Shanahan wrote: > ...I don't want my FAQ-collection effort to get in the way of getting > things done on diversity@. For that reason, I suggest creation of a > mailing list diversity_education@a.o... I disagree with Yet Another List as it tends to

Re: Apache people, Native Americans

I would also encourage people who are interested in *why* this is emotionally charged to read the book Chasing Shadows by Shelley Bowen Hatfield (no relation, as far as I know) about the complicated and often brutal history between the US Government, and the Apache and Yaqui people along the

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

Couple of thoughts - sorry for being brief, and really not trying to bikeshed here: * We need someone to shepherd this, thank you Patricia for volunteering! Generally my opinion is that the work of building the content should fall to those who have learned, not the explainers, who are the

Re: Apache people, Native Americans

It depends which sub-group you are talking about, and whether you are referring to current or former relationships. The Jicarilla Apache in New Mexico actively refer to themselves as a Nation, as do the Yavapai-Apache Nation, the San Carlos Apache Nation and the Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation. Many

Re: Apache people, Native Americans

According to Wikipedia, Apache are made up of several tribes. It doesn’t sound like an individual tribe, so “nation” sort of makes sense, though I’m not familiar with their specific terminology. On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 07:11, Rich Bowen wrote: > > > On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote: >

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I’m not sure how the technical feature works, but mailing lists can set up an FAQ. Ezmlm allows you to send a message to diversity-h...@apache.org which could theoretically be used here. On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 08:18, Patricia Shanahan wrote: > I picked the name without much thought, so it can

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I picked the name without much thought, so it can almost certainly be improved. On 5/13/2019 6:04 AM, Naomi Slater wrote: I think this is a great idea I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to

Re: FAQ and education mailing list

I think this is a great idea I hope this isn't bikeshedding, but perhaps we should choose a different name. I say this because I'd like to be able to direct someone to this other list without it sounding like I'm telling them they need to "get an education" perhaps diversity-meta@ (because it

Re: Apache people, Native Americans

On 5/13/19 12:11 AM, Kenneth Knowles wrote: "subscribe" This comes up for me pretty much every time I explain my work/life to someone who has not yet heard of the ASF (if they don't mention it, that is sort of worse). Reading Mark's comment I had the same question as Rich. I would very much