Hi
My k3. Must be be one of the newest issued, sn 3759. Delivered by ups
Monday this week. Finished the build last night, the 2 nd rx being
the last item to go in.
Just 2 items missing and wud you believe they are the 238mm zinc
screws which bolt down the sub rx L shape cover!!!
Dsp es
Hi James
This has been my impression for the last 2 years when using our clubs K3's
I decided to do a comparison with several radios.
FT1000MP
TS870S
FT1000D
TS850S
TS930S
If you blind folded yourself and did not look at the S-meter and switched
between the radios, the K3 was always much
There seems to be a lack of understanding regarding the DSP upgrade. The
full price of the DSP board is $367.
Elecraft's upgrade deal is only $69.95 presuming you return the old DSP
board in 3 weeks to Elecraft.
This seems to be a reasonable price to bring the radio fully up to date.
73,
Bob
I'm not complaining about not updating and I think it's a reasonable
price, per-se. But add in the postage, customs handling (no duty) and
VAT, this gets a little steep over here and I can't really afford to
do that for some performance I might not miss.
YMMV
And I'm not suggesting this
Just to make it clear, I am not unhappy with the way Elecraft do business.
Neither am I bothered about buying a small add-on board to improve my
reception. I am quite willing to pay for the small board but do not see why
I should have to pay £60-£70 (which it will be here after shipping and VAT
A new noise has recently started appearing at this QTH on 10m, which was
previously a quiet band. Normally the S meter would read about S2, but now
it reads about S5. This noise, heard through the K3, has a distinct
buzzing sound.
I decided to switch the antenna to the FT-817 in order to record
My W-2 behaves in exactly the same way with the basic meter. Using the new
software, it is stuck in the 2W range when using auto. I am using a IC-7000
on 2.
Phil
K8MBY K-3 #609
- Original Message -
From: Ed-AE5FV ae...@arrl.net
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Wednesday,
To: d.cut...@ntlworld.com d.cut...@ntlworld.com
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Noisy K-3 Receiver
Hi
Can't say I do. I have sold my FT2k so don't have another rig to
compare rx to.
I will look at the rx later, at the mo after assembly and testing
etc, I have an error message ERR PLL2 on the
Thanks for the info. But since there is allegedly no such thing as a stupid
question, may I ask whether only the main DSP board should be replaced.
How about the second DSP board for the SUB RX? No change?
BTW I'm quite happy with the RX EQ... But I may do the upgrade for the rig
to be up to
Gents,
On the flip side, I - and, apparently, many other operators from whom
we've heard on this and other reflectors - have run the K3 for 30+ hours out
of a 48-hour contest and not experienced the fatigue you describe. Such
fatigue would make any rig an intolerable chore to use and would
I am another of the hundred K3 users who has been using it for long periods of
time like the last SSB WW Contest when I had it on my ears for about 30 hours
and it was absolutely not fatiguing,it was pleasent to listen to a very quite
receiver pulling weak stations from the noise and from
Hello,
I want to know how big the internal CW (or RTTY) buffer is, when using the
KY command. The KY command can include 24 characters, but I guess the
internal buffer is bigger than 24 characters.
How many characters can I send safely, when the extended KY command returned
0 (buffer75% full)?
Hello Hector,
What´s about this W9AC mod? Why do you need it and why not the radio have
this feature done from the Elecraft company if the radio will be better with
this mod?
I hope to not need to do mods on the K3.!
I have an old TS850 with many mods, but my idea for a new radio is to be
Brian,
I agree with that. The K3 does sound different than many other
receivers, it is cleaner, and to my ears reproduces the signals that are
actually present on the band more faithfully than many other receivers.
Compare the K3 to a good Direct Conversion receiver or a KK7B Phasing
Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
Hello Hector,
What´s about this W9AC mod? Why do you need it and why not the radio have
this feature done from the Elecraft company if the radio will be better
with
this mod?
I hope to not need to do mods on the K3.!
I have an old TS850 with many mods,
This subject of K3 receiver noise has illustrated how
differently we view our radios.
After seriously competing in the recent ARRL 10M and
160M contests ... and scoring very well... I commented to
Rose and radio club friends how -quiet- the receiver(s) are.
After a seven-month wait to get my
My suggestion:
1, upgrade to lastest f/w
2, tune the center of the passband to 1.4~1.45k(very important)
Hope those will helps!
all the best!
David,BA4RF
2009/12/17 juergen piezo plebia...@yahoo.com
Hi James
This has been my impression for the last 2 years when using our clubs K3's
I
Bill W4ZV wrote:
You will not need to modify a new K3. The mod was implemented around S/N
3010 last April/May. New unit S/Ns must be approaching 4000 by now.
For the record, here's the information from Elecraft:
We started shipping the latest DSP boards, Rev C, approximately May 1st,
Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:
Hello Hector,
What´s about this W9AC mod? Why do you need it and why not the radio have
this feature done from the Elecraft company if the radio will be better
with
this mod?
I hope to not need to do mods on the K3.!
I have an old TS850 with many mods,
Tom, DL2RUM wrote:
I want to know how big the internal CW (or RTTY) buffer is, when using the
KY command. The KY command can include 24 characters, but I guess the
internal buffer is bigger than 24 characters.
How many characters can I send safely, when the extended KY command
returned 0
One outstanding question that's not addressed in the announcement below
relates to whether or not Main DSP Board Rev. C includes the hardware audio
LPF. So, if a K3 owner purchases the K3DSPUPGD upgrade today, will it also
contain the audio LPF?
Paul, W9AC
- Original Message -
From:
The other thing that helps (and helps a LOT) is to reduce the RF Gain
until the band noise is at a lower level - just barely present. Yes, it
will likely be different for each band, but can be quickly set by
listening to a spot with no signals and listen for the frying noise to
be barely
The mods are essentially the same, although Elecraft likely re-scaled R
values rather than C. The end result is identical. I drafted those mods at
a time when the upgrades were not yet implemented by Elecraft. Taking
advantage of Elecraft's exchange program is the better choice and leads to
Ian Maude wrote:
Just to make it clear, I am not unhappy with the way Elecraft do business.
Neither am I bothered about buying a small add-on board to improve my
reception. I am quite willing to pay for the small board but do not see
why
I should have to pay £60-£70 (which it will be
Alan:
I went on line to order but they want $32.21 to ship one $29.95 item to
California (UPS ground). I don't think so...
Too bad - looks like a nice unit.
Find a couple/few others to add to your order. That shipping was
virtually IDENTICAL to what they charged me to ship three (3) in a
Hi Alan:
GREAT PRICE!!!
Thanks for the link. And yes, that does appear to be the VERY SAME box!!!
I hope they have a BUNCH of them!!!
73,
Tom
At 21:50 12/16/2009, you wrote:
For me shipping was about $18 which I thought was a bit too much to
ship. So, I went on eBay today looking for a
Some may recall a problem with overheating / failure
of the audio IC on the DSP board when a mono plug
was plugged into the speaker jack, creating a short
on one side of the chip's output. I'm aware of several
chip failures ... including mine ... due to this operator
error.
In conversation
Julian, G4ILO wrote:
I don't see what purpose an audio filter board would serve, given that we
have a crystal filter followed by DSP filtering and then RX equalization
already. Any high frequencies that can get past that lot must be at a pretty
low level already.
At least from my
That should answer the question. Many Tnx, Roger.
Paul, W9AC
- Original Message -
From: Roger Marrotte rmarro...@verizon.net
To: 'Paul Christensen' w...@arrl.net
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:29 AM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] K3: Noisy Receiver? - not here!
Paul,
I have one of
I don't see what purpose an audio filter board would serve,
given that we have a crystal filter followed by DSP filtering
and then RX equalization already. Any high frequencies that
can get past that lot must be at a pretty low level already.
The add on audio filter board reduces
Juergen and others.
I'm glad to see this thread get so much attention; it's about time this
issue was brought into focus. In spite of my huge appreciation for this
radio, I find it to be very noisy and fatiguing to listen to, especially
with weak signals.
I have, like others, tried all
hi fellows,
if you want to have a better rxmodulation from the K3, than try this
german produkt: lingua
http://www.ing-michels.de/en
the algorythmen extract the speech. what you hear, ist so clear like the
speech at an FM-repeater.
it ist great!
73 de dg3oo
manfred
That's a good question, and something I'd like to know as well. I'm
assuming that in order to keep both receivers identical in performance, both
DSP boards will have to be swapped out. I'm also assuming that the
replacement cost will be doubled. Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
Cheers,
James
Rather than debate whether K3 is noisy I suggest to debate why it appears so
to many. Then it can lead to fixes. Below are a few hypotheses.
1. Highest AGC threshold is too low.
2. Gain distribution under RF gain. RF gain under AGC does not reduce noise
as much as with AGC off. The reduction
If it's weak signal work where this is being noticed, one test of the
overall noise floor is to run the headphone output from several rigs,
individually switched into a PC sound card with a FFT software program
running. The AF outputs would require normalizing at various
signal-strength
K2QI wrote:
That's a good question, and something I'd like to know as well. I'm
assuming that in order to keep both receivers identical in performance,
both
DSP boards will have to be swapped out. I'm also assuming that the
replacement cost will be doubled. Please correct me if I'm
Thanks for the info. But since there is allegedly no such thing as a
stupid
question, may I ask whether only the main DSP board should be replaced.
The Main DSP board routes the sub Rx audio and so, there's no reason for a
sub DSP board replacement.
Paul, W9AC
Hi Bill,
I'm sure I'm not grasping this concept well, but what about the sub receiver
then?
73 James
-Original Message-
From: elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net
[mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Bill W4ZV
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 10:24 AM
To:
OK, that helps a lot. I thought I would have to buy TWO new dsp boards,
guess I missed any previous comments to the contrary.
Thanks, Jim KG0KP
- Original Message -
From: Paul Christensen w...@arrl.net
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2009 9:24 AM
Subject: Re:
Thanks to the person who first mentioned the Lilliput monitor and to Joe,
W4TV, for suggesting that the Spectravue display fits very well onto the
800x480 WVGA resolution (with the monitor horizontal). This is a super
clean combination when used with a K3 (of course). Photo on request.
Jim
James,
The audio path for the sub is on the main DSP board - the change is not
in the DSP itself, but in the audio path.
73,
Don W3FPR
James Sarte wrote:
Hi Bill,
I'm sure I'm not grasping this concept well, but what about the sub receiver
then?
73 James
-Original Message-
In the past I complained about harsh receiver audio characteristics similar
to some of the audio characteristics being posted recently. It got to the
point that I stopped operating as the listener fatigue was so apparent. The
effect seemed to be most apparent at CW filter bandwidths. I am
Rob Sherwood, NC0B, of Sherwood Engineering says that all of the
receivers with dsp made since roughly 2000 except for the K3 and one
other have agc that is excessively responsive to fast ( narrow width in
the time domain) noise impulse noises. According to him, these impulses
charge the agc
Very, very cool! I can leave the window up with my logging program. Seeing
forward and reflected power digitally is a great improvement. Now if I can
just figure out if there is a way I can get the W2 window to stay whenever I
input to the logging program - anyone know how to that? I'm a
What I am going to try first is to make a space for it by reducing the
size of my logging program window. There may be a way in our Windows
program(XP in my case) to make it stay on top but like you I don't know
how to do this. Hopefully someone on here can help us with that.
On 12/17/2009
OK, thanks David, sorry, must admit I didn't look since I haven't got
one yet.
--
There are three truths: my truth, your truth, and the truth.
-Chinese proverb
On 17 Dec 2009, at 17:09, David Fleming wrote:
Hey Dave,
There IS an OSX version.
This statement (If you run RF GAIN wide open the receiver will sound noisy
and you are limiting your dynamic range) is only true for the bands where
the
band noise is high, but on the higher bands (eg 6m), the band noise is only
a little higher than the receiver noise (and maybe not at all if you
A few questions...
What is the max length of cable between the W2 and sensor?
It looks like the cable is CAT5 or CAT6 Ethernet cable, true?
THX!
73, Bill N2BC
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Home:
I believe I've written about this before, at least to a few, but perhaps it
bears repeating. I have done a side-by-side comparison of my K3 with another K3
when RF (actually IF) gain was reduced with the AGC on.
With my radio, tuned to a S9+50 dB BC station, even a slight decrease in gain
was
The Mac version is WAY prettier than the Windoze version. That alone is a great
reason for everyone to buy a MacBook Pro. (not trying to start a religious
war). :-)
David, W4SMT
--- On Thu, 12/17/09, David Ferrington, M0XDF m0...@alphadene.co.uk wrote:
OK, thanks David, sorry, must admit I
Making the window on top optional would be the best of both worlds. I
have some very important reasons why I want to be able to
see the W2 window all the time.
Let me provide a little back ground here which I am sure will apply to a
number of you. First of all can you see your amplifier
HI,
I just received my K3, SN2321 that I bought from Tom W0TOM.
I am looking forward to getting it setup and on the air.
Randy
K7AGE
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Help:
I am anxious to see what the new board will do. I have used QF1A for many
years and never found a radio yet where it did not enable me to copy signals
much better. I treat my QF1As like gold and never operate without one in
the Peak mode.
73 Mike K4PI
Graham,
BUT - the K3 RF Gain control ONLY controls the IF gain - it does not
reduce the gain of the receiver front end - in that respect, the K3 is
similar to those other receivers that you referred to.. The preamp and
attenuator DO change the front end gain.
73,
Don W3FPR
Graham Kimbell
The new software is really cool. It is now permanently on my screen and works
nicely.
A minor issue which will certainly be corrected in the future is than when
transmitting at 20 W (which happens to be what the TUNE PWR on my K3 is
adjusted to), the display jumps to 276...318 W and then settles
Going even further back in Trekkie yore - you are now Of the Body.
According to Landru anyway.
Randy Hall wrote:
HI,
I just received my K3, SN2321 that I bought from Tom W0TOM.
I am looking forward to getting it setup and on the air.
Randy
K7AGE
Hi Richard,
Yes, we are aware of the problem and it will be corrected in a forthcoming
firmware update. For now, set PWR(ser) to PEP. That should help.
tnx,
David, W4SMT
--- On Thu, 12/17/09, Richard Squire - HB9ANM hb9...@bluewin.ch wrote:
The new software is really cool. It is now
Does the DSP Board swap change anything other than the audio chain, and is
that for headphones only?
73,
Dick - KA5KKT
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Help:
The K3 became a different radio after the modification that I am quite
pleased with. One of the problems we have is that no one who works at K3 can
apparently hear the problem, thus no hurry or they think we are crazy.
Mike,
The problem is that meanwhile there is a lot of mix-up going on
Hi Wes:
I took a look at the RF Gain Calibration on the K3 Utility and they offer
two ways of doing it. One requires a signal generator and one uses factory
default values. Is the factory default method satisfactory or is it
necessary for us to purchase the XG2 to do the calibration properly.
This is just feedback to the forum. Thanks to all good feedback I got I found
resistor r25 in PLL without proper solder connection in just a few hours. As
I was recommended towards the PLL area I looked around with a good lamp and
a magnifying glass. I was able to wiggle the resistor and get the
When I attach my K3, using stereo speakers out, to a set of powered
speakers noticeable hum occurs. Also the powered speakers have two
inputs, just plugging the K3 in, even though the K3 is not turned on
reduces the output volume from the other source by half. Am I doing
something
Richard,
The K3's external speaker output requires a stereo plug. Also set
CONFIG:SPKRS to 2.
Hum pickup is a very common problem with some powered speakers,
regardless of what they're used with. You may be able to fix it with
different cabling, moving the DC adapter, etc.
I recommend
OK Don, well it must be controlling the gain of the first IF amp then, and
that must be important to the receiver's noise figure. All I know is that
turning down the RF gain reduces S/N (on my K3 at least). And this wasn't
the case in f/w 3.27.
Graham
- Original Message -
From: Don
Resistance is futile.
(don't know about reactance, though)
Going even further back in Trekkie yore - you are now Of
the Body.
According to Landru anyway.
Randy Hall wrote:
HI,
I just received my K3, SN2321 that I bought from Tom
W0TOM.
I am looking forward to getting it
Since I also restore old vintage stereo receivers, etc., I feed the audio
from the K3 to a stereo amp/receiver and out to an old set of Yamaha
speakers. I have hi/lo cut filters, control of bass and treble and all
needed volume. Fills the room. However, since I spend most of my time
chasing
k4pi wrote:
I am anxious to see what the new board will do. I have used QF1A for many
years and never found a radio yet where it did not enable me to copy signals
much better. I treat my QF1As like gold and never operate without one in
the Peak mode.
All the board changes do is improve
I too am wondering if the newer Rev. C DSP boards have the AF filter
board already installed on them.
Also, it seems that quite a few folks here on the list have these AF
filter boards in hand and installed already.
How does one get in queue to receive one?
Perhaps someone in Aptos can
I am going to key 3 amplifiers with my K3 using Amp Keyers. Today I had a
cable company make me a Super High Quality Single RCA to Triple RCA splitter
for the K3 and amplifiers using the highest quality Belden double shielded
cable and color coded RCA connectors. If any one is going to do the
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N6XVT,
I am in need to the answer to this question myself. Not for my K3, but
for my stereo Amp.. No hum, loss of singal. In this case it is hooked
up to a preamp out. If the other amp is not on it cuts the volume.
Must have something to do with line loading.
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec
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One doesn't have to be a Hi-Fi enthusiast to be discomforted or fatigued by
distortion products and other artifacts, but perhaps being one is useful in
knowing the causes. Not perceiving these in the conscious mind or otherwise
quantifying or qualifying them does not mean that a person is
I, too, would like to know the answer to these questions
N1LQ wrote:
I too am wondering if the newer Rev. C DSP boards have the AF filter
board already installed on them.
Also, it seems that quite a few folks here on the list have these AF
filter boards in hand and installed already.
I am in Ahipara (near Kaitaia), but my K3 all the rest of my station
is still packed away after shifting QTH.
There are a couple of K3s in Whangarei (100km or so south of here). Tell
him to check with the Whangarei branch of NZART - or direct to Peter
Dent, zl1pwdthink that's his call
You can order the DSP swap from the K3 ordering page.
-
73,
Greg - AB7R
Whidbey Island WA
NA-065
On Thu Dec 17 14:43 , Ben Horton sent:
I, too, would like to know the answer to these questions
N1LQ wrote:
I too am wondering if the newer Rev. C DSP boards have the
I have two K3s, one has the new DSP board, so I hooked them up together and
listened to low frequency tones. The higher SN radio definitely has more
bass. In fact I have noted a few times, just how low it goes. It seemed very
unusual for a communications radio to do that. So I listened to the
KK7P wrote:
There is an often referred to AF filter module which installs on the
main DSP board ...
My understanding is that this is part of the DSP board swap upgrade,
and is in currently shipping K3s.
But I've been known to be wrong!
73,
Lyle KK7P
The on-list
I have one of the upgraded boards.
Mine is a rev B with some SMT component changes that achieves approximately the
same result as W9AC's bass extension mods, although Elecraft seem not to have
changed some of the capacitor values. I think I read somewhere they were
achieving the same result
Since there are a lot of kit builders on this forum I have a question that
maybe someone can answer. What is the best magnet type wire for winding
toroid style inductors. By best, I mean the enamel insulation on the wire for
ease of removal and soldering and so on.
And, do you have a source
I am a K3 owner and user. I have the KRX3 module installed. What do I
need in order to hear below 500 kHz? Or is this even possible for
the K3? Currently, there is a great signal drop off when I tune below 1 mHz.
Dave, W5UN
__
Phil,
You want Thermaleze wire - it strips with heat. One source is Doug
Hendricks kits - http://www.qrpkits.com/.
73,
Don W3FPR
Phil Hystad wrote:
Since there are a lot of kit builders on this forum I have a question that
maybe someone can answer. What is the best magnet type wire for
Depends on the volume you need. I recently bought several pounds total
of different colors and gauges at about one-third the price of Mouser or
DigiKey from James Whyte at magnetwire...@embarqmail.com
He also sells on E-bay or you can contact him directly for a quote on
what you need. It's
Maybe I missed something here, but I really had to do some serious
searching to find the W2 Utility so I could see the display on my (Windows XP)
laptop.
I eventually found it in /software/W2, but somehow I couldn't find a link
in any of the official download windows!
I was able to
Disclaimer:
I admit that I'm a crochety old-timer, 55 years on the air on this coming
Friday, and have had many receivers/transcievers on the desk. I operate a
lot of contests, mostly CW. I spent 45 years recording sound, and think I
have a pretty good ear. I agree that the K3 has many fine
Bert,
I had the same issue. I think when I restarted IE the browser cache cleared
and then ok. But, until then I thought I had lost part of my brain (along
with the other parts!). I have an issue here. The peak hold no longer
works. It was working and then quit. I had been using QRO and
Hi, Bill!
If you send the W2 a P via the W2 Utility (or the buttons on the W2
Interface program) the Peak-Hold LED should come back. Sending the
command toggles the feature on/off with each P.
73,
Brian, W6FVI
Elecraft, Inc.
Bill K9YEQ wrote:
Bert,
I had the same issue. I think when I
Hi Dave,
You are out of luck below 490 kHz. Also, you need the general coverage
board so that you can tune below 1.8 MHz. There is a bandpass filter that
rolls off on the normal antenna jack, (for BCB protection) but you can use
the aux antenna jack on the KIO3 strip and get great
Thanks Jack and Don for your answers. Just what I was looking for.
phil, K7PEH
On Dec 17, 2009, at 5:18 PM, Jack Smith wrote:
Depends on the volume you need. I recently bought several pounds total of
different colors and gauges at about one-third the price of Mouser or DigiKey
from
Hi,
I have a pristine fully loaded K3 s/n 1513 that looks and smells new. Non
smoking home and always kept under a cover and unplugged when not in use.
The options are as follows:
K3/100
KAT3
KXV3
KRX3 (with 2.7k SSB Filter)
KDVR3
KTCXO3-1
KBPF3
KFL3A-6k
KFL3B-FM
KFL3A-2.8K
Please contact me
Hi Dave,
You need a BC-453.
www.carc.org.uk/pdf/FavRx002.pdf
Wes
--- On Thu, 12/17/09, W5UN w...@wt.net wrote:
I am a K3 owner and user. I have the
KRX3 module installed. What do I
need in order to hear below 500 kHz? Or is this even
possible for
the K3? Currently, there is a great
Brian, I don't see the peak hold on the computer display - will we see that
in a later version?
Brian Broggie-2 wrote:
Hi, Bill!
If you send the W2 a P via the W2 Utility (or the buttons on the W2
Interface program) the Peak-Hold LED should come back. Sending the
command toggles the
I took #1823 through the SS CW and the 10m CW 'tests with reasonable results.
I did notice that turning the SUB rx on/off while transmitting (getting
ready for the next Q) caused the CW to 'stutter' (referred to as 'causes
interuption of transmitted CW signal' in previous firmware notes re RIT
Thanks to K2AV, I solved my problem with calibrating my K3 TX output. The
problem I was having was due to two things: first, I was using the owner's
manual from August 2008 (when I got the rig)...the latest online version is
quite different when it comes to TX calibration, and second, I
Turning the sub RX on and off is cycling a whole lot of things. SO2x
operation in common practice uses something external to rig(s) to
switch/blend audio. Wayne has something on the list about improving
SO2x operation, but you can bet it's not a cheap fix. I think there
also was a reflector
OK,my new MAX1406's came in today.
I really made a point to check out every possible cause for the previous
chip issues.
Installed the new MAX1406 and now have 122.1 V's at the junction of C77 and
R11. Also have a -22.4 V's at pin 8 of U4.
So, the new chip fixed this
Ralph Parker wrote:
I'm used to leaving the RF gain wide open on the MkV, leaving the audio
gain pretty much alone, and maybe switching between SLOW and FAST
occasionally. I don't seem to have any trouble hearing the weak ones under
the strong ones.
Now I have to fiddle with the RF gain
Dave,
I ordered a Jackson Harbor VLF mixer based on this discussion started by
Jack Smith K8ZOA:
http://n2.nabble.com/VLF-LF-Converters-td787815.html
I wrote up my results here:
Receiving NDBs with the Jackson Harbor LF Converter ... Elecraft K3,
LP-PAN, and Quisk
I'm using a W2 with two sensors, both HF-2KW. I have the .92 firmware
installed, and I've been using the new W2 app. I am now getting some strange
behavior with the W2. First, sending QSK CW the lights keep flashing after
I've stopped transmitting, fainter and fainter with each flash and
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