Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 4:58:29 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/6/2019 3:51 AM, PGC wrote: > > Now, if we could just formalize aesthetics: what makes a theorem > > interesting or sexy as fuck? > > We could train an ANN to have the same aesthetics as the NYT art > critic. :-) > >

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 3:44:39 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/5/2019 11:26 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > 1. The world is rational. > 2. Human reason can, in principle, be developed more highly (through > certain techniques). > *3. There are systematic methods for the solution

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 5:51:54 AM UTC-5, PGC wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 11:25:59 PM UTC+2, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/5/2019 2:06 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> I of course think that "consciousness arises from the function of >> matter in some configurations" (the

Re: Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology"

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 10:35:44 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: With mechanism we don’t have a body, only relative “Gödel number”, ... > > Bruno > > > This always reminds me of The Prisoner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xcaxlxgnvf0 @philipthrift -- You received this message

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 12:59:20 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > This guy, Peter Wegner, that pt referred to indirectly. > http://www.cse.uconn.edu/~dgoldin/papers/strong-cct.pdf His point is > that human consciousness is an interactive program that receives arbitrary > and unknown inputs

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 6:55:37 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Sun, May 5, 2019 at 6:40 PM > wrote: > >> >> I don't have answers to any of these questions, but I do know this: >> >> *The Church-Turing thesis is one of the most useless ideas ever invented.* >> >> >> > Is it? It's the reason

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 4:25:59 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/5/2019 2:06 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > I of course think that "consciousness arises from the function of > matter in some configurations" (the conscious brain is nothing but the > cells and chemicals operating

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

I don't have answers to any of these questions, but I do know this: *The Church-Turing thesis is one of the most useless ideas ever invented.* Is the church-Turing thesis true? Carol E. Cleland https://philpapers.org/rec/CLEITC The Church-Turing thesis makes a bold claim about the

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I of course think that "consciousness arises from the function of matter in some configurations" (the conscious brain is nothing but the cells and chemicals operating inside the skull), but it's doing more than* information processing*. It's doing *experience processing*. People can

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Sunday, May 5, 2019 at 2:45:21 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > my cells, and "my" bacteria, are conscious at the level of biochemical > information processing. But that's not part of my inner narrative > consciousness. > > Brent > As I wrote previously: cells have some level of

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

Re: "only certain kinds of matter can be conscious" and "all matter is conscious" I do think the first (human brains at least, and perhaps some non-human brains, from primates to down* the "food-chain"). Some think there was no fully or cognitively conscious (only a sensory conscious) human

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 8:30:00 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, May 4, 2019 at 9:15 PM 'Cosmin Visan' < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > > > *> What happens in cases of telepathy is [...]. For example, in cases of >> dream telepathy [...] This clearly is a case of dream

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Being in an AI lab, I went to AI and NN (neural net) conferences for 20 years. Today if I was interested in an AI research career and I was in my 20s again, I would begin in bio-AI. Synthetic biology routes to bio-artificial intelligence https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5264507/

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

What is the interest in silicon, BTW? Do you own stock in a silicon production company? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_silicon_producers @philipthrift On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 4:10:07 PM UTC-5,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I am not a chemist, biochemist, or neurochemist, but of the list of alternatives listed: - 1Shadow biosphere - 2Alternative-chirality biomolecules

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

This is more than the 20th time I have said here there could be conscious beings made of *biochemical alternatives*: Hypothetical types of biochemistry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry cf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon This obviously has nothing

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

But you have contributed to establishing a term: *cybernetic delusion* - the delusion that software or programming in a conventional computer device (even one with many processors) will ever achieve consciousness That is useful. @philipthrift On Saturday, May 4, 2019 at 9:58:09 AM

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

It seems people will remain in the delusion that software or programming in a conventional computer device - even with many processors - will achieve consciousness. Searle's Chinese Room argument still does apply here, as anyone should clearly be able to see. One can wave the magic word

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I understand basically what your idea is, but "cybernetic dynamics" reminds me of Norbert Weiner's subject of cybernetics, something I read about decades ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybernetics:_Or_Control_and_Communication_in_the_Animal_and_the_Machine One should be able to replace

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I must assume you have already studied (hopefully over many years) in philosophy the difference between *functionalism*: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/functionalism/ and *identity theory*: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/mind-identity/ A short way of expressing identity theory

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 7:32:15 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/3/2019 2:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> If "consciousness doesn't supervene on

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

As you see in the article on functionalism: Functionalism developed largely as an alternative to identity theory ... which is at least in the same ballpark as my view. @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 6:56:16 PM UTC-5, John

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I don't believe in the "*functional* equivalence" principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_(philosophy_of_mind) as it does not capture the nature of what is needed for consciousness (as many critics - some listed there - have pointed out). If I had to pick something vs.

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Well we know *some* matter has a psychical aspect: *human brains*. Unless one is a consciousness denier. - https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 4:58:04 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > > Panpsychism of any flavor that

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

There is a whole spectrum of panpsychisms (plural) - from micropsychism to cosmophychism: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/panpsychism/ cf. https://www.iep.utm.edu/panpsych/ That is not a "real science" yet is its basic problem of course. But consciousness science in general really isn't

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" > then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) > physical [or

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:19:00 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 2:58 AM > wrote: > >> >> >> On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 7:10:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/1/2019 4:24 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >>> > I would say that one could have a Jupiter

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

I see the coin made (as the ones lying on my desk right now made of metal) of matter. The two sides of the coin (of matter) are *physical *and *psychical*: https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2019/01/22/matter-gets-psyched/ If ὕ – the first Greek letter for “hyle”, upsilon (υ) with diacritics

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Re: " timeless mathematical reality" *there are no such things as mathematical objects* https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/ cf. https://www.iep.utm.edu/mathfict/ @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 1:55:05 PM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > > You should check

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

If "consciousness doesn't supervene on physical [or material] computation" then does that mean there is realm for (A) consciousness and one for (B) physical [or material] computation? Is A like some spirit or ghost that invades the domain of B? Or does B invade A? @philipthrift On Friday,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Consciousness "executing" in an immaterial (nonphysical) realm is what Christians call *Heaven*. God made this place. Mormons have a more material afterlife idea, I think. @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 12:10:04 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > I think that is right. But when you

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

All software that has ever run has run on computers made of materials and assembled in factories. There is no *spiritual/heavenly realm *- as fat as I know - where software is running. Can you show me such a place? Have you seen it? @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 9:33:58 AM UTC-5,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

The general response here is that there has never existed a program that has executed outside a computer. And computers are made of matter. Now one can generalize "computer": There were things like the abacus and slide rule, that executed "programs". Or one executes programs in the head (so

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:18:33 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 1 May 2019, at 19:58, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 11:30:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 1 May 2019, at 10:56, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> By "heat" I just mean

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 8:03:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/2/2019 4:55 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> Apparently *matter* is not "reducible" to

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > Apparently *matter* is not "reducible" to just the physics a couple of > particles. > > > Then you're not a materialist. You think there is matter plus something > else,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 10:52:50 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/2/2019 12:58 AM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 7:10:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 5/1/2019 4:24 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> > I would say that one could have a Jupiter

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 7:10:03 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 5/1/2019 4:24 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > I would say that one could have a Jupiter planet-sized network of > > Intel® Core™ processors + whatever distributed program running on it, > > and it will not be conscious.

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 3:39:03 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > Searle's Chinese Room thought experiment is not just wrong it's STUPID. I > say this because it has 3 colossal flaws, just one would render it stupid > and 3 render it stupidity cubed: > > 1) It assumes that a small part of a

Re: Does all computation generate heat?

On Wednesday, May 1, 2019 at 11:30:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 1 May 2019, at 10:56, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > By "heat" I just mean it as one studies it as a subject in a physics > class, for example. > - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat > > *Does all computation

Does all computation generate heat?

By "heat" I just mean it as one studies it as a subject in a physics class, for example. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat *Does all computation generate heat?* (Should be a simple enough question, I think.) - @philipthrift -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the

Bernardo Kastrup: "Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology"

Not my view of course, but here is *Analytic Idealism: A consciousness-only ontology* Bernardo Kastrup Dissertation, Radboud University Nijmegen (2019) https://philpapers.org/rec/KASAIA-3 pdf: https://philpapers.org/archive/KASAIA-3.pdf Abstract This thesis articulates an analytic version of

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

It's simply distinguishing informational/physical semantics from experimental/psychical semantics. - @philipthrift On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 2:15:41 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: > > Well... if you want to do words-play, you can word-play all day long as > you want. I see that AI

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Tuesday, April 30, 2019 at 2:13:15 AM UTC-5, telmo wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 29, 2019, at 21:08, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 8:41:18 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Apr 2019, at 22:25, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 26, 2019

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 8:41:18 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Apr 2019, at 22:25, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > >>> On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:04:31 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: Consciousness. Red is red. On Friday, 26 April 2019 10:03:26 UTC+3,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

Now that is something programming language theorists would not agree with: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantics_(computer_science) : In programming language theory , *semantics* is the field concerned with the ... study of the

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Monday, April 29, 2019 at 7:27:26 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 26 Apr 2019, at 15:33, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > *AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals* > > *John Basl is assistant professor of philosophy at Northeastern University > in Boston* > > >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems

On Sunday, April 28, 2019 at 3:50:17 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 4/28/2019 11:09 AM, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List wrote: > > Ok, so how does it appear ? > > > Like this (you're getting kind of dense). > > > > > If you show that picture to a rock, does the rock see red ? > > > I

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 3:25:44 PM UTC-5, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > >>> On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:04:31 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: Consciousness. Red is red. On Friday, 26 April 2019 10:03:26 UTC+3, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > What specific

Re: Everything List Conference

There is this: http://www.weidai.com/everything.html (Thu, 15 Jan 1998) - @philipthrift On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:54:47 PM UTC-5, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

>> On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 2:04:31 AM UTC-5, Cosmin Visan wrote: >>> >>> Consciousness. Red is red. >>> >>> On Friday, 26 April 2019 10:03:26 UTC+3, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: What specific ontological entity or entities of any science in 2019 does one claim as* final*

Re: Everything List Conference

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 12:38:10 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 4/26/2019 12:23 AM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > I am a member of > > Atoms and the Void > Free Thinkers Physics Discussion Group >

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 9:04:46 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Friday, April 26, 2019, > wrote: > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 7:29:08 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 2:48 AM Philip Thrift >>> wrote: >>> On Monday, April 22, 2019

Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

*AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals* *John Basl is assistant professor of philosophy at Northeastern University in Boston* https://aeon.co/ideas/ais-should-have-the-same-ethical-protections-as-animals ... A puzzle and difficulty arises here because the scientific study

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

That is a good point. And that is the basic framework of Strawsonian panpsychism: *Consciousness Isn’t a Mystery. It’s Matter.* - https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/opinion/consciousness-isnt-a-mystery-its-matter.html - @philipthrift On Friday, April

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems (a symposium at the AAAI Stanford Spring Symposium 2019)

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 7:29:08 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 2:48 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> >> >> On Monday, April 22, 2019 at 6:24:37 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: >>> >>> The above reminded me of this quote from Alan Turing: >>> >>> Personally I think that

Re: Everything List Conference

I am a member of Atoms and the Void Free Thinkers Physics Discussion Group Everything List The first two are the "Vic" groups. (The

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 7:28:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 4/25/2019 1:42 PM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > The one-and-only code of nature is a hidden entity. We may > > "approximate" it with our own code (like the Marcolli code above), but > > unless there is some sort of

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:55:50 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 4/25/2019 7:50 AM, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 8:34:30 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >> >> >> >> Le??jeu. 25 avr. 2019 15:23, a ??crit??: >> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, April 25,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 11:30:57 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le jeu. 25 avr. 2019 à 17:44, > a écrit : > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:21:04 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Le jeu. 25 avr. 2019 à 16:50, a écrit : >>> On Thursday,

Re: My book "I Am" published on amazon

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:34:25 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 24 Apr 2019, at 19:29, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 11:51:06 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> >> With mechanism, there is no choice: physics must be explained in term of

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:21:04 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le jeu. 25 avr. 2019 à 16:50, > a écrit : > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 8:34:30 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Le jeu. 25 avr. 2019 à 15:23, a écrit : >>> On Thursday,

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 8:34:30 AM UTC-5, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > > > Le jeu. 25 avr. 2019 à 15:23, > a écrit : > >> >> >> On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 1:18:44 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 2:42 pm, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < >>>

Re: Towards Conscious AI Systems

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 1:18:44 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > > > On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 at 2:42 pm, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > >> But it happens all the time. How do you think you move your body if not >> by top-down influence in levels