;t think so because they don't allow putting links in the book
> description, or there might be some restrictions as far as I know.
Who are "they"?
--
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file to use?
Does the order for building the subdirectories of Junit vary from day to day?
Does it vary from machine to machine? That seems surprising to me.
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gt; don't know how easy it is to build from source. And when they do that
> they often forget to also package the source code.
Are you saying that
only nonfree distros include Java programs
and they do so by treating them as nonfree software
even if in fact they are free?
--
Dr Richar
no information, though. "CC BY-SA 4.0" is answer enough.
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x27;s what determines whether we COULD use a book.
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age support.
It has never been possible to build GCC from source without a working
C compiler. We can't hope to "fix" that, so let's not worry about it.
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> terms of use
Clearly, packagin Mono would require checkin all this.
I don't think we need to discuss this further here and now.
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Intern
ptable.
https://gnu.org/malware/ and other things we have published
could be a good start towards this.
We can work on adding whatever we find to be missing.
But we must avoid saying that our list is complete so any behavior not
listed is good. We should say only that "as of now we don't know
ch to Mono on GNU/Linux?
If so, that could give us more reason to care about Mono on GNU/Linux
than we had in the past.
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me example -
like
As long as that feature is inactive by default, and users who activate
it can specify specifically who it talks to and control what topics it
talks about, we don't object.
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is.
It would be good if they used different kinds of build mechanisms
so a volunteer could have a choice of what problem to work on.
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Inter
n't
build it from source", that would imply it is not free software. I
get the impression you mean something other than that, but what
exactly does it mean?
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that Microsoft would attack the free replacements with patents.
That has not happened, and now maybe the danger is little. Perhaps it
would be ok to drop that warning to avoid them. On the other hand,
that warning does little harm now.
We don't say that free distros should reject them.
--
be discussing it).
> Some other repositories seem to have really bad licensing quality as
> licenses are completely optional.
This is why I think we should look at these one language at a time.
Despite the aspects that are similar, the ones that differ will
call for a separate discussi
n.
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ike a distraction to me.
I don't want to spend any time on them.
I've just said what I plan to _do_.
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ckage managers with all their variation, don't seem
very useful to me. But they are taking up a lot of time.
I plan to deal with them one by one.
--
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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ggest it
> strongly, by giving distro maintainers a greater stake in the decision
making
> process
I don't know what this is about. Would you please show it?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Softwar
rs for some specific cases. Then we can
generalize from those.
> because vague and specific are opposites - it loses cohesion to mix them
They are complementary -- we need them both.
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Sof
"its fine - forget it" would surely be the easiest one
I can't make sense of that.
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ir "guest"
I take your point, but I don't think that detail requires our attention.
Let's not get lost in a tangent about that.
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s a possible negative influence that works against our
principles, but it is not outright against them.
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to post
> some sort of warning, which distros could decide to heed optionally - there
> is no place to put such a warning
We can make one. For instance, in the criteria page.
- the FSDG has never done anything like that
That won't stop us!
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e he realizes his misunderstanding.
But it makes no sense to adopt a policy of rejecting simole and easy
solutions in the hope that people won't fly off the handle.
However
--
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Fr
to _urge_ distro maintainers not to include ScummVM and tell
them why. Much simpler, and no rules.
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ying this is guaranteed to be true in all cases without exception.
I am saying this will USUALLY be true.
If we come across an exception, we can take account of it.
The point is that this issue NORMALLY arises for emulators.
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Chief GNUisance of the GN
especially when most people will not have this thread.
We can work on the text so that this sort of problem does not occur.
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think that concern is based on the two
misunderstandings I stated above -- it does not really exist.
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7;t.
For the concerns of the FSD, the source code is the principal form of
any program. Binaries are made by compiling the source code.
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Internet
tand by all I have said about those points.
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dSoftware.
That's what I thought. It confirms for me that this is a good
pace to discuss this sort of issue.
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id he objected to a proposal to "ban" something, but what I'm
considering doesn't ban anything.
When you see someoe overreact based on exaggeration,
please try to stay calm. To exaggerate and overreact in response
to an overreaction is not helpful,
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licy
That makes sense. Sorry for the noise.
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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
Thanks for your support.
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re by yourself is not unethical, but it is bad for
you in practical ways and moral ways. A nonfree program is always an
injustice. Our mission includes leading people away from that and not
towards it.
Look in fsf.org for the "freedom ladder" to see this.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
of this list
a few years ago?
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the latter is desirable.
These have to be judgment calls. To make them rigid rules would
make no sense -- rigid rules can't do these jobs.
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sions on another list
specifically for this.
Can you set yourselves a deadline of 3 weeks to find which are the
easier targets, and report?
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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exible so we can make a plan to fix those
problems, over time, but not be unreasonably rstrictive until then.
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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Internet Hall
policy:
We urge free distros not to include ScummVM because does not
contribute anything significant to the free software commuity.
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some volunteer work for the FSF, or the GNU
Project? We need lots of such help, Many KINDS of volunteering, too
-- not just programmng.
Have you looked at gnu.org/help?
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
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oblem - the
> > haskell repos are only exception that i know of
> We also have:
> - For Emacs: ELPA GNU, ELPA non-GNU
I know what those two are, but what is the issue about them here?
Why mention them here?
Everything in them is under GPLv3+ or compatible licenses.
--
Dr Richard Stallma
s
> if that was the only way to make Parabola not explode.
I think that solution is so drastic and painful that we should rather
start fixing them one by one, and the distros can keep using the broken
packages managers until we replace them.
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Chief G
r the possibility of changing the criteria for endorsing
a free distro, this seems like the right list to use.
Arent the maintainers of free distros on this list?
I thought they were.
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;re
basing your argument on, because I know very little about QEMU.
The one thing I can is that (1) any platform for running software can
run nonfree software, and therefore (2) the fact that platform P can
run nonfree software is not pertinent to any judgments about P.
--
Dr Richard Stallma
package, in freedom terms, than
ScummVM. Thus, I am thinking of saying, "Forget about ScummVM,
use Rempy instead."
> The downside is that it runs on less operating systems than ScummVM[1].
Are people still portinmg Rempy?
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own code that runs inside ScummVM.
I see, but is that important to prove? Why would we want to prove it?
ScummVM is not very important in a positive way. Mainly it is a pain
in the neck.
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Fou
t this so as to avoid the bad result
I've talked about?
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le that read these these advises, distributions that
> follow them, and the reputation of the FSDG criteria.
That is rather vague, I can't draw a conclusion from it.
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ight, we don't need to cite a precedent for it,
If we see a need to reconsider a decision, we should reconsider
thoughtfully based on what we know and understand.
Let's hope our old decisions were mostly wise and that few need
reconsideration.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Ch
n something else, and I am not sure what.
The GNU webmasters are not an automomous group. For issues that are
more about web design than about message, I usually defer to their
judgment because they know what is possible and what works well,
though I do comment. But when it comes to presenti
free distro is that, by recommending it,
we never give users the impression that we think some nonfree program
is acceptsable to recommend.
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Intern
eing equal, we should not need any of them - they
all
> exist because windows and mac do not have proper package management; so
every
> programming language established their own
I agree completely, but there is noi use fulminating against them.
If we want this problem fixed, we h
n
gnu-prog-discuss and we can have good discussions about how to fix
them.
If and when we have fixed them. we can talk with the developers
of free distros about adopting our solution. It won't be terribly
hard, because we will already have done the hard part.
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old no favoritism in this matter
As far as I can see, it makes no diff which order we do them. I
expect each one has details that will make it different from the
others.
We may as well deal with Cargo because we're here.
Let's not spend time looking at ways to change plans.
of
ScummVM even if it has a little bit of minor use for free games.
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experts, such as GNUtoo, what you write would be clear.
But I don't have that background knowledge. For me to understand, it
behooves you to notice when a person needs some background knowledge
to understand -- and state that background knowledge explicitly.
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in that state of affairs, because it seems
that Parabola is NOT promoting those programs.
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arrant a
> single word of this discussion
I think it was worth having. We will make a recommendsation, and I hope
that will help the distros converge.
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ogram like ScummVM, we simply do nothjing.
> for every similar instance, it becomes a sisyphusian task
There will not be so many -- we will only bother with the programs
that people bring to our attention. And we don't need to re-evaluate
them unless there are is a pressing case to do so.
ial requirement.
A trivial packaging requirement is ok because it is trivial.
A burdensome packaging requirement is not ok.
Have I explained clearly?
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f the answer is no, we would need to start our own repo
from scratch. If the answer is yes, we would wish to find a way to
filter the containers in the standard Docker site, but is that doable?
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do so.
This is not a rule. When we discuss it, let's discuss it
as a "rule", ok?
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nstead I suggest we evaluate the cases that come to our attention,
by a less exact criterion, and seem worth bothering with.
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Internet Hall
ng Cargo. Let's not start another one now!
Let's finish with Cargo and then take up another, on gnu-prog-discuss.
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Int
and with full cprrectness?
Keep in mind that all I know about Docker is that it packages programs
together in a container.
If you don't have a real solution ready, we could put this off and
deal with it later.
--
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project
ed
> acceptable, referring to the precedent case of the OFL fonts
> license
What is the license condition in question? What are its words?
That may be a topic I can resolve, given the facts.
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Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
ot; or "1 or more free games need it".
The question is whether the free games that need ScummVM are
significant enpugh to change the judgment from "basically this is a
way of running old nonfree games" to "this makes senss in the Free
World."
There is no sharp line betwe
good
opportunity to point out the difference between free software and open
source, to a subcommunity that probably has not paid attention to it.
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ll? If so,
in which steps?
3. How do they verify that a package is really all free software,
when someone proposes to add it to the user-maintained recipes?
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eless in the Free World is that its job is to run
nonfree games.
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ween the cases. Only
with details can we tell.
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t?
I would call that a duty, not a rule. We have no need to specify
in detail or rigidly how we will deal with these cases.
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ee games, that
you cited, and say that at least that promotion should not be in the
distro.
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ut of a molehill, takes a
gram of that mountain, and makes inflates that to a mountain again.
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t usually does. People in guix-devel report already
> pointed that the games was missing source code, so I added more infos
> about that.
Guix is supposed to be entirely free software.
How can they justify the inclusion of these games,
they being nonfree?
--
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be superseded by an
> actively maintained equivalent and/or superior replacement, and preferred
for
> equivalent tasks
Is there an actively maintained _libre_ replacement for ScummVM?
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ease don't
make a nountain out of this molehill.
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your time awqy
from the high priority goals. If you can do something quickly to
encourage people about free JS games, please do -- otherwise let it
drop.
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e?
> I need that information for convincing Guix to remove them.
Can you get the answer out of Guix itself?
Guix is supposed to build everything from sources, right?
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Scummvm", ou est-ce "développer des
programmes libres qui ont besoin de Scummvm, s'il n'y en a pas
encore"?
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ly a shred of a reason to consider a program important.
A cult following is not a reason to overlook a moral defect.
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try to discourage it if we can -- but is there anything we can
do?
Could we possibly help and encourage people who develop games in JS
to release them also so that a user can install a game on per own computer?
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (http
solete"; though i suppose that most active game developers
> today, have never heard of it
I conclude that excluding ScummVM will be no loss to free software.
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ree software.
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does not prohibit its existence.
It does not stop users from getting it and installing it. All this
decision would mean is that our free distros would not offer it to
people.
Most of what you've said in your message seems to be arguing
against something I am not advocating.
--
Dr Richard
ut it.
Wine is a more difficult case because we have decades of history
of including it. Also, while there is a limited list of programs
that need ScummVM, a much broader range of programs might need Wine,
including maybe some free programs.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
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at will still be included in
distros, that would be good to use for this work?
Anyway, if someone ever does write a free game that uses ScummVM, we
could change our judgment of the matter.
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Founder, Free Sof
e who want to use it for those purposes can get it from someone else.
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game itself among things that the
user could install. Just listing scummvm among things that the user
could install does not seem to get there.
But I think it would be better not to include scummvm in the packages
of a distro.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU
its only uses are to support games that are
more or less proprietary.
This is not quite the same question as whether including scummvm
in a distro "tends to suggest" the use of those games.
--
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Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.o
in and of itself?
> that was my assumption - many years ago, debian reviewed and approved the
game
> machine and all of the mentioned games
I am confused here. What, exactly, "was your assumption"?
>From the info you provided, it looks like scummvm IS free.
Do you agree
oes "CCS" mean here?
> "complete corresponding source"
Thanks. Now I can partly follow what that message said.
Is it clear yet whether scummvm itself is unacceptable
in and of itself?
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (ht
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
What does "CCS" mean here?
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stal
ributions I propose adding that game to the List of software that
> does not respect the Free System Distribution Guidelines[2].
That seems like a good idea.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (h
from person A to person B is not SaaSS. SaaSS means
outsourcing your _computing_ to a server, and mediating communication
with someone else isn't the same thing as doing your own computing.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Fou
stros don't recommend SaaSS platforms.
Maybe so -- but that issue seems rather different (though they both
relate to SaaSS). One issue is about which programs to include,
and the other is about which web sites to mention.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of th
connecting to PRISM members is not and should not be criteria for
> FSDG?
That should not be a criterion.
Our criterion is for distros that are entirely free software. It is
_not_ intended to rule out all software that raises any known moral
issue of any kind.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Chie
thing about.
Let's not let it eat up our time.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
h user to communicate with
other users.
I wish I could explain it so you would get it, but I don't see how.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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