On Tuesday 14 December 2004 17:28, Roman Turovsky wrote:
Hålbus Totte Mattson does pagan scandinavian folk-rock on a 13-course
baroque lute, but I wouldn't think it advisable to draw a conclusion
of a Lappish lutenism from this.
There seems to be an old daguerrotype that propably represents
Arto, I am honored by the effort and energy you have put into your research.
RT
__
Roman M. Turovsky
http://polyhymnion.org/swv
Hållbus Totte Mattson does pagan scandinavian folk-rock on a 13-course
baroque lute, but I wouldn't think it advisable to draw a conclusion
of a Lappish
On Fri, 17 Dec 2004, Roman Turovsky wrote:
Arto, I am honored by the effort and energy you have put into your research.
RT
__
lappish lutenist or something like that, see
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/sautsekki.jpg
There is more enlightment on the aforementioned
Arto, I am honored by the effort and energy you have put into your research.
RT
__
lappish lutenist or something like that, see
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/wikla/mus/sautsekki.jpg
There is more enlightment on the aforementioned daguerrotype:
In the middle of the 19th century
Subject: Re: Vihuela, charango and armadillos. Long post . Olim Renaissance
america - a little more lute related, maybe
i found this thought brilliant:
i read recently that the process of history really got
underway when mirrors became affordable to everyone.
until
Dear Alain,
I have listened to the Kaky Kings CDs, that I found very interesting; I found
her technique very similar to Michael Hedges play (Aerial boundaries)
Paolo Declich
You all got it all wrong: The difference between a vihuela and a
charango is the same as that between a piano and
and so ...
with the icy blast of rejection resounding in his
neatly combed, brand new casa armonica, the plucky
little vihuela de mano retraced his steps back to the
nina, pinta and santa maria.
'vihuelita' ... the common little chordophone mused
as he scampered up the gangway and into the arms
i found this thought brilliant:
i read recently that the process of history really got
underway when mirrors became affordable to everyone.
until then it was impossible - literally - to properly
see one'self as anything distinctly different.
By chance I red recently in this book (in PC
--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
you say potato - i say potato ... let's call
the
whole thing off.
regards - bill
Dear Bill,
I shall be pleased to oblige.
Best regards,
Antonio
You all got it all wrong: The difference between a vihuela and a
charango is the same as that between a piano and an organ transplant.
What beats me is why this thread is going on, while we could be talking
about the Cuban lute - as heard on the Buena Vista Club famous CD -
which at least as
bill kilpatrick wrote:
any of the
variations listed in your preceding letter (tunings,
backing material, no. of courses, etc.) would
naturally be of intense interest to him - no more than
any other variation he might have encountered in his
experience - but of secondary importance to its
dear antonio -
thank you very much for your considerate and
informative reply.
what's needed here is a little imagination and i don't
think historians are willing to inch themselves that
far out on to the plank.
we have a shipwrecked sailor with some carpentry
skills who makes a stringed
Bill,
I commend you on your manners, and I'll not quarrel with Antonio's history
of the names and the language of the instruments of South America.
But as an outside source I'll just say bullshit. Parallel development of
anything is both possible and likely, and particularly of musical
dear antonio -
you may grow weary of me banging on about this but
your knowledge on the subject is very interesting to
me.
the music played on the charango, its function in the
music and the variation of technique and material used
in its construction are as different and individual as
the
antonio -
in fairness, i never got an answer in the 1st round of
correspondence; you said the charango was different to
the vihuela de mano but never explained why or how.
be that as it may, in order to prove that charango
is merely a quechua name given to the vihuela de mano
i'll have to: (a)
Dear Roman;
Will do.
Gary
- Original Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 5:50 AM
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
It is too big and too sore a subject. It requires
i'll restate my line: renaissance never
passed through the States and this is a fact.
Since there was almost no European population in North America during the
time known as the renaissance, this is not significant. And except among
the small minority of people who had money, the
Roman Turovsky wrote:
in Russia medieval era lasted till about 1690.
When Peter the Great shaved off the last boyar beard?
And some remnants thereof to 1860.
March 3, 1861, I would think. Do Russians talk of a renaissance in
Russia?
To get on or off this list see list information at
I wrote:
Do Russians talk of a renaissance in
Russia?
By which I meant, do Russians speak of the renaissance as something that
occurred in Russia?
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
I wrote:
Do Russians talk of a renaissance in
Russia?
By which I meant, do Russians speak of the renaissance as something that
occurred in Russia?
Never. Russian mythopoeism goes only so far.
RT
To get on or off this list see list information at
in Russia medieval era lasted till about 1690.
When Peter the Great shaved off the last boyar beard?
Took 'em awhile to get shaved. There was also a period of beard tax (sic!).
And some remnants thereof to 1860.
March 3, 1861, I would think.
Thanks for clarification.
Do Russians talk
Howard wrote:
And except among
the small minority of people who had money, the renaissance didn't pass
through Europe either.
Yeah right--money: can i buy you a renaissance tonight?--oh yes, i'd
appreciate it,
i can't afford it you see.. Renaissance--Something to Buy, Something to
Dear Bill,
How right you are. In the remote case that the
Historias de la Conquista del Mayab proved to be
genuine, I would require more evidence than what this
text alone tells to consider that there might be a
relationship between the vihuela and the charango.
There are certain statements in
rosinfiorini wrote:
i'll restate my line: renaissance never
passed through the States and this is a fact.
Since there was almost no European population in North America during the
time known as the renaissance, this is not significant. And except among
the small minority of people who had
surely this is a case of putting the cart before the
horse.
- precisely what changes were made to the vihuela de
mano that required it having a new name?
- at what point do derivations - alternative tunings,
decorative embellishments, different building
materials - necessitate this change?
PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more
lute related, maybe
Dear all,
--- Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Early colonial life was hard! The early English
and
Spanish colonies in
North America were not characterized by much
musical
cultural growth
NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that
he
doesn't get any more airtime.
RT
It is seldom that I can agree with you, but Noam Chomsky isn't a senile
idiot - he was an idiot 40 years ago. His initial works on linguistics back
then were rather foolish. He took a
You also might try Thomas Walker's (1968) 'Ciaccona and Passacaglia:
Remarks on their Origin and Early History', JAMS 21/3
L.
Fossum, Arthur wrote:
I will try to track down Richard Hudson's studies( thanks Antonio)
-Arthur
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
: Friday, December 10, 2004 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay
the 10
000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also normal citizen
society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night
: Re: Renaissance america
Dear Roman;
Noam Chomsky is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived...? On
what have you based this diagnosis? Or is this just your way of saying you
disagree with his analysis? Such drama.
All the Best,
Gary Digman
- Original Message -
From: Roman
Hey Roman, didn't you already award that title to Milton Babbitt or someone?
-Original Message-
From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 11, 2004 12:40 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
Dear Roman;
Noam Chomsky is the biggest
Thanks to both Wayne and Arto. I'll dig into it.
Tim
On Saturday, December 11, 2004, at 04:11 AM, Arto Wikla wrote:
Lutenists
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Wayne Cripps wrote:
If you want neusidler, I have neusidler - a major chunk of one of
his instruction books. Starts out real easy!
Lutenists
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, Wayne Cripps wrote:
If you want neusidler, I have neusidler - a major chunk of one of
his instruction books. Starts out real easy!
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?neusidler.EinNew
This is just the page I was trying to find for Tim!
of music in Europe ( not
just Europe to Americas)
I will try to track down Richard Hudson's studies( thanks Antonio)
-Arthur
-Original Message-
From: Fossum, Arthur
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 8:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related
Dear all,
Once again .
--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
surely this is a case of putting the cart before the
horse.
If the fact that the violeros knew what name to call
the instruments they made, and designated them with
such names in their own documents, implies
, December 09, 2004 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
But my original question still remains unanswered: Why this Jab at
America?
I thought this was a forum to discuss the Lute and things related.
No jabs. It was just a bit difficult to leave LeBlanc's uneducated insult
uncommented.
RT
--- Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Incidentally, the Spanish Ordenanzas de violeros,
that is, the regulations of the guild of
vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first
published
in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the
guild of Mexican violeros in 1568. This must
Historians may retrospectively analyze the whys
PD
As it stands today you are correct, however if America was not involved in
WWII Hitler would not have been forced to fight a two front war at either
end of the Continent, Russia would not have had American assistance
financially and
Enough, the members of this list are from various countries and opinions.
And some hold those opinions rather strongly. (BTW RT, I can send you a
photo of fine Celtic metalwork from 700 BC, as preserved in a museum in
Germany).
Only if it pertains to string manufacture.
RT
__
At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
and the new world.
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm
From this website: The Chacona (a.k.a. Passacaglia), is considered a Spanish
Folk dance but originally came from
Carl Donsbach wrote:
Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in
North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and
there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical
instruments (lutes included) tended to get left
through the early chapters of Damiani's tutor
but it's nice to have something else to play. My knowledge of the
available music is pretty meager.
Tim
Original Message
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Re: Renaissance america
Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 05:47:21 +0100
As others have said, can we get back to lutes? Anyone know any easy
(really easy) but interesting music for a beginner? No more than two
voices, open strings on the second voice? Not too many shifts? I'm
still working my way through the early chapters of Damiani's tutor
but it's nice to
I thought it might be a spoof, but a visit to the home page, dedicated to
the dancers of 'West Coast Swing' and its variants indicates that the
writers are just out of their element.
Caroline Usher wrote:
At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of
--On Friday, December 10, 2004 7:27 AM -0800 Howard Posner
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Carl Donsbach wrote:
Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in
North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and
there is little evidence of lute
In reference to some of the messages in this thread, I would ask my
online friends outside the United States to remember that Bush got a
bare majority in the last election. Almost half of the country is
unhappy about the current state of affairs. Many - including some of
the Americans on
I agree with Caroline,
Ciaccona is not equal to Passacaglia, the Sigr. Ciacone is not more palusible
than Sig. Passo Emezzo or Ms Folia...
Paolo
At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
and the new world.
At 10:41 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Obviously as a musical form Ciacona and Passacaglia are different. I
think the website is calling them similar as respect to the dance steps.
I would like to know the source as well for F.A. Ciacone
The passacaglia is not a dance. From the New Grove:
Anyone know any easy
(really easy) but interesting music for a beginner? No more than two
voices, open strings on the second voice? Not too many shifts?
Tall order, and, I fell compelled to point out, it has nothing to do with
Stalingrad.
It has, quite a bit, but Kursk rather than
=20
How come pas de passacalle is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713?
Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly an=
outgrowth of its use in stage and/or chamber music:
In France the Hispanic-Italian passacaglia, like the chaconne, was=
transformed during the
Caroline Usher wrote:
The passacaglia is not a dance.
Arthur Fossum wrote:
How come pas de passacalle is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713?
Probably because it was a dance at the time. If a musical form hangs around
for a century or two, any statement about what it is will be perilous.
:)
-Arthur
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
=20
How come pas de passacalle is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from
1713?
Evidently by that time the French had created a dance for it, possibly
an=
outgrowth of its use in stage
Dudes!
If you want neusidler, I have neusidler - a major chunk of one of
his instruction books. Starts out real easy!
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/tab-serv/tab-serv.cgi?neusidler.EinNew
Wayne
Dear Timothy
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, timothy motz wrote:
Anyone know any
NC is the biggest senile idiot that ever lived, and thank the Allah that he
doesn't get any more airtime.
RT
*
oh, really, and why this judgement? do you think he doesn't get air time
because he is 'senile' idiot, or because of other reasons?
i've listen to him on arecording talking about
Message -
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay
the 10
000 dollars per year to get higher education
No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation
whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew how
to name the instruments they made.
Antonio
--- bill kilpatrick [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
--- Antonio Corona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Incidentally, the Spanish Ordenanzas de
violeros,
: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear all,
--- Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Early colonial life was hard! The early English and
Spanish colonies in
North America were not characterized by much musical
cultural growth, and
there is little evidence of lute
I'm no military historian
Obviously not.
There's a lot of that going around it seems.
but really, did the Russian accomplishment consist
of anything besides simply absorbing the German assault
(astounding as that may be)?
A minor thing indeed, at the cost 20,000,000.00 lives on the
, December 10, 2004 9:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
At 09:21 AM 12/10/2004 -0500, you wrote:
Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of Chaconne and Passacaglia
and the new world.
http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm
-Original Message-
From: Fossum, Arthur
Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 12:01 PM
To: 'Caroline Usher'
Subject: RE: Renaissance America - a little more lute related, maybe
How come pas de passacalle is in Feuillet's Choregraphie from 1713?
-Original Message-
From
Timothy Motz wrote:
Anyone know any easy
(really easy) but interesting music for a beginner? No more than two
voices, open strings on the second voice? Not too many shifts?
Tall order, and, I fell compelled to point out, it has nothing to do with
Stalingrad.
Try cruising the web sites that
Dear Timothy
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004, timothy motz wrote:
Anyone know any easy
(really easy) but interesting music for a beginner? No more than two
voices, open strings on the second voice? Not too many shifts? I'm
still working my way through the early chapters of Damiani's tutor
but it's
Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in
North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and
there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical
instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at home by
get a little of the scent of the mental schemes and climat that rulled then. I
red these accounts by someone from there at this time and it was really
stagnating and oppressive. They said, education was compulsarry but the only
education there was was religious (and pretty severe). They had
had to have the luck to have moms that make good money so they can pay the 10
000 dollars per year to get higher education. Then also normal citizen
society never took over the medias there: here you see almost every night on
TV philosophers, all government figures, artists, writers, free
While I find these remarks insightful -- except for the part about the
dominance of the religious and military, the part about Shakespeare and
Dowland (who were both dead before there were more than a handful of
European settlers in North America), and the parts about the praying seven
hours a
from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Would be cool. Like i was thinking recently, what if America was not
conquered and developed under the sign of stiff puritans but by the Italians
(without the Savanarola part though-hehe)just when there was the Renaissance
and everything went renaissancewise...Thiw part of
Certainly some friend in Italy
Paolo Declich
from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Would be cool. Like i was thinking recently, what if America was not
conquered and developed under the sign of stiff puritans but by the Italians
(without the Savanarola part though-hehe)just when there was the
Do you have many friends in America, Rosi?
David Cameron
Yes
-
Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! Try it today!
--
To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
That's right, RT, just think of the enormous contributions made by Mother
Russia in the Pacific.
From: Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 08 Dec 2004 22:01:48 -0500
To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
I'm no military historian
Obviously not.
but really, did the Russian accomplishment consist
of anything besides simply absorbing the German assault
(astounding as that may be)?
A minor thing indeed, at the cost 20,000,000.00 lives on the Russian side
alone. More than 20 times the US
-0500
To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED], lute list [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
What brought on this jab at America? Did you ever stop to think what this
world would be without America as has evolved? You for one would be
drinking Schnapps and goose
from [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Would be cool. Like i was thinking recently, what if America was not
conquered and developed under the sign of stiff puritans but by the Italians
(without the Savanarola part though-hehe)just when there was the Renaissance
and everything went renaissancewise...Thiw
Roman wrote:
Stewart wrote:
I'm no military historian
Obviously not.
There's a lot of that going around it seems.
but really, did the Russian accomplishment consist
of anything besides simply absorbing the German assault
(astounding as that may be)?
A minor thing indeed, at the
: Re: Renaissance america
What brought on this jab at America? Did you ever stop to think what
this
world would be without America as has evolved? You for one would be
drinking Schnapps and goose stepping your way to world conquest, or in
some
camp somewhere because some little bureaucrat
: Thursday, December 09, 2004 8:52 AM
Subject: OT: Renaissance america
I'm no military historian
Obviously not.
but really, did the Russian accomplishment consist
of anything besides simply absorbing the German assault
(astounding as that may be)?
A minor thing indeed, at the cost
Italy was out of the picture during the time America was being colonized but
to see what effect a similar culture (Spain) would have, you need only look
south of the US at Mexico.
While puritans colonized Massachusets, most of the rest of the Atlantic
colonies were settled by more rational
Thoughts, random and disjointed...
Early colonial life was hard! The early English and Spanish colonies in
North America were not characterized by much musical cultural growth, and
there is little evidence of lute playing or making in those times. Musical
instruments (lutes included) tended
PROTECTED]To:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12/09/2004 05:51 Subject: Re: Renaissance
america
As it stands today you are correct, however if America was not involved in
WWII Hitler would not have been forced to fight a two front war at either
end of the Continent, Russia would not have had American assistance
financially and technically and the entire outcome of the war would have
But my original question still remains unanswered: Why this Jab at America?
I thought this was a forum to discuss the Lute and things related.
No jabs. It was just a bit difficult to leave LeBlanc's uneducated insult
uncommented.
RT
--
http://polyhymnion.org/torban
To get on or off this
Likewise in the east, the Japanese had secured most of the strategic points in
the Pacific Rim and China, and were well on their way
to take down Australia. But between the Chinese insurgency and the massive
American campaign, their resources became stretched too
thin. Again, please
Likewise in the east, the Japanese had secured most of the strategic points in
the Pacific Rim and China, and were well on their way
to take down Australia.
Not a bad thing in itself, if you consider those potential cello pins for
lutes
RT
To get on or off this list see list
the convent and Congo Square are just a few blocks from where I'm typing
this message, btw.
-Original Message-
From: Carl Donsbach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2004 4:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute
Did you ever stop to think what this
world would be without America as has evolved?=20
*
America has not Evolved--Ray Bradbury has evolved, kurt Vonnegut has evolve=
d, even Bruce Springsteen has evolved, Norman Mailer may-be too, Tom Waits =
(hehe) etc, etc, you name 'em, there so many but
, December 09, 2004 10:22 PM
To: Stuart LeBlanc; lute list
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
Likewise in the east, the Japanese had secured most of the strategic points in
the Pacific Rim and China, and were well on their way
to take down Australia. But between the Chinese insurgency and the massive
rosinfiorini wrote:
The weird thing i learned recently is that the American president had a Jap=
anese code decoded some days before Pearl Harbour and knew about the attack=
but needed pretext to enter (highly unpopular at home) war so...he ordered=
the radars at Pearl Harbour to be shut
Dear all,
--- Carl Donsbach [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Early colonial life was hard! The early English and
Spanish colonies in
North America were not characterized by much musical
cultural growth, and
there is little evidence of lute playing or making
in those times. Musical
Normally people like you give away free bibles. How
about a free viol? :-)
Stephan
Would be cool. Like i was thinking recently, what if America was not conquered
and developed under the sign of stiff puritans but by the Italians (without the
Savanarola part though-hehe)just when
You should mark things like this OT
rosinfiorini wrote:
what if America was not conquered and developed under the sign of stiff
puritans
It wasn't, except one small part which is largely catholic now.
HP
To get on or off this list see list information at
a profound dislike to the color of your eyes or the shape of your nose.
Vance Wood.
- Original Message -
From: rosinfiorini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 7:06 PM
Subject: Renaissance america
Normally people like you give away free bibles
What brought on this jab at America? Did you ever stop to think what this
world would be without America as has evolved? You for one would be
drinking Schnapps and goose stepping your way to world conquest, or in some
camp somewhere because some little bureaucrat with power over your life
in that
scenario.
-Original Message-
From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 9:02 PM
To: Vance Wood; lute list; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Renaissance america
What brought on this jab at America? Did you ever stop to think what this
world would
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