Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Tony Chalkley wrote: > Just an idea that I wouldn't know how to put into practice - they couldn't > have roped but left a finer "tail" to go through the hole, could they? I'm > thinking of a make of guitar and bass strings where only the core lies on > the saddle and of course piano strings. > >

R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Martin, > > I agree completely that the sources suggest even "feel" > across the strings, and 13N or whatever is implausibly > low. I don't know how to resolve the apparently > impossible combination of clear, stiff, non-roped, > non-loaded strings thin enough to go through bridge > holes,

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> So we are left with some very difficult problems. I'm glad that more > people > are now taking the debate seriously - who knows, we might end up with some > decent (and historically plausible) lute strings... > > Best wishes, > > Martin > > P.S. But I'd settle for just "decent". Actually, I fi

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

November 28, 2004 6:40 PM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > > > > Anyway, I don't care - I haven't even got a baroque lute;-) > Shame on you! > RT > -- > http://polyhymnion.org/torban > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> > Anyway, I don't care - I haven't even got a baroque lute;-) Shame on you! RT -- http://polyhymnion.org/torban To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2004 3:58 PM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > Dear Francesco, > > I agree completely that the sources suggest even "feel" across the strings, > and 13N or whatever is implausibly low. I don't know

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> la.or.jp>cc: Subject: Re: thoughts on low te

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

"'Martin Shepherd'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "'Lute Net'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 11:14 PM Subject: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > Dear Martin and Ed, >> >> historical fact. I have found the sam

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

At 9:38 AM -0600 11/27/04, Edward Martin wrote: >the sources never mention roped >gut. I can imagine that roping gut is a modern invention, rather than a >historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, that it gives >a rather dull sound. The lower tension solution seems to be logica

R: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

n [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Inviato: domenica 28 novembre 2004 0.27 > A: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Edward Martin'; 'Martin > Shepherd'; 'Lute Net' > Oggetto: Re: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > > > Dear Francesco, > > I did not imply

Re: R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Francesco, I did not imply that for the basses that less tension was used. I think for the baroque lute, less tension overall on the entire instrument is the most logical possibility, not just for the basses. I agree that the gimped or Pistoy is a much better sound that a roped (i.e., ca

R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Martin and Ed, > > historical fact. I have found the same results with roping, > that it gives a rather dull sound. The lower tension > solution seems to be logical. Do you really think that one could play with basses with a 1N or more less tended than the other strings? It contrasts with

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Ed, Martin and All: My experience with various lutes suggests that roped gut is a pretty poor lute string -- dull, quiet, no overtones, no sustain -- in general agreement with others' comments. It is more effective, I think, with bowed instruments -- vielles and rebecs. Any violists out

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> >Best wishes, > >Martin > >- Original Message - >From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

t; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, November 27, 2004 9:44 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > > Stephan Olbertz wrote: >>this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his >>website at &

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Stephan Olbertz wrote: >this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his >website at >http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Thanks for this. There is a lot of food for thought in that article. He says: >It is possible to approach the original type of sound balance with >modern ma

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

ter way to accomplish the purpose - although I use those "blade/hooks" on my psalteries. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jon Murphy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Arto W

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> Must I make everything as detailed as a primer, or > can you just accept that I might know what I'm talking about? Yes. Otherwise you get a messageful of inexactitudes and fallacies. It would have been for your own good. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartm

Re: Wire strings (was: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes)

I've seen a history of drawn wire somewhere on the web. Search rec.music.early on Google-groups. RT > RE wire strings, which were somehow deemed an implausibility on early harps: > This is pure conjecture, but I think that by the middle ages craftsmen had > been working with various metals long eno

Wire strings (was: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes)

RE wire strings, which were somehow deemed an implausibility on early harps: This is pure conjecture, but I think that by the middle ages craftsmen had been working with various metals long enough to have figured out how to draw it through a die to get wire. Perhaps the greatest obstacle to m

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Damn it to hell Roman, this is getting annoying. > Not quite. Hooks and levers are NOT the same thing. I'm afraid you don't > know enough about hooked harps of the 18th century. I know quite well that hooks and levers aren't the same thing, and I think I said that we now call hooks blades. But th

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Vance, > Aesthetics for the most part. I can't imagine a lute with a set of Grovers > especially twenty-some-odd of them on one instrument. The issue of weight > would be a real and significant problem. I concur, I am really more traditionalist than I sometimes sound. But I'm thinking of lookin

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

D]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Vance Wood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2004 3:05 AM Subject: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > Vance, > > > > perishable nature of the objects of our search and the ambiguity

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

I would think Michel Podolsky's, after the War, at the bad end of the spectrum, and Walter Gerwig at he good. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > > what's the oldest known recording of a lute? ...or > any other cordophone instrument? anyone know? > > - bill > > >

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

>> If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely > provide >> you with an explanatory booklet, but in a nut-shell a Baroque harp is a >> instrument in use during the Baroque Era, i.e. a more or less chromatic >> instrument with either two or three rows of strings, or a single

RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Stephan and all, > > At least with my hands it's in no way easier to play thumb-out > on low bass courses. If I want to keep the little finger on > the soundboard and away from the first course, the thumb > virtually is _in_ when lying on e.g. the 11th course. > Interestingly it only seem

RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Francesco (and all), just a few further thoughts, sorry for answering lately. Francesco wrote: > Perhaps they decided to change to thumb out for other technical > reasons. I guess it's simpler to play thumb out with many courses, due > to the much wider distance the thumb must reach, and

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

what's the oldest known recording of a lute? ...or any other cordophone instrument? anyone know? - bill = "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra Joseph of San Buenaventura.

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Vance, > > perishable nature of the objects of our search and the ambiguity of > existing > > information. And herein lies my confusion. I have a good friend (and college classmate) who is retired from a career as an orchestral flautist and now has a non-profit Baroque orchestra in Connecticutt,

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> Not necessarily. You forgot about density. > RT I did not forget about density, I just didn't see the need to set down all the details. If you would like I'll give you all the numbers (but not tonight as I don't know which drawer my notes are in). The charactistics of the material that are rele

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

RT, > If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely provide > you with an explanatory booklet, but in a nit-shell a Baroque harp is a > instrument in use during the Baroque Era, i.e. a more or less chromatic > instrument with either two or three rows of strings, or single a

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Yes, I agree that the 13 course literature, especially Weiss, is so sublime. But, I already have a lovely 13 course Burkholtzer, so the 11 course is just what I need. So, I have one of each. ed At 07:17 PM 11/23/2004 -0800, sterling price wrote: >I have been interested in this for a while. It

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> You should read the latest journal of the LSA which > discusses this topic in depth. Surely we can agree > that many baroque lutes didn't begin life with 13 > courses. > Sterling 1. That's why so many of them fell apart. 2. Lundberg's opinions are considered dated by some. 3. Too many instruments

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

You should read the latest journal of the LSA which discusses this topic in depth. Surely we can agree that many baroque lutes didn't begin life with 13 courses. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > They were MOSTLY building "from scratch", and from > time to time putting in a

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

They were MOSTLY building "from scratch", and from time to time putting in a fake label, for self-evident reasons. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://polyhymnion.org/swv > So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman > were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of > their t

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

So you are saying that J.J. Edlinger and J.C. Hoffman were not inteligent? That is what they spent most of their time doing besides making violins. Sterling --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > He would never do this, if he were intelligent. > RT > > > Obviously I would take it to my

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

He would never do this, if he were intelligent. RT > Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert > luthier of course silly:) > Sterling > --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> According to luthier-friend this type of sorry >> "expediency" is exactly what >> was the cause of l

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Obviously I would take it to my neighborhood expert luthier of course silly:) Sterling --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > According to luthier-friend this type of sorry > "expediency" is exactly what > was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. > This is not as bad as > cell

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

According to luthier-friend this type of sorry "expediency" is exactly what was the cause of low survival rate of baroque lutes. This is not as bad as cello-pins for lutes, but DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME. Earlier lutes just don't have enough wood to hold 13 courses. RT __ Roman M. Turovsky

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

I have been interested in this for a while. It seems to me to be a valuable insight into historical lute construction, i.e to convert a rennaissance lute to a baroque lute rather than only replicate the final product. Ed-I think you should now convert the 11c to a bassrider 13! If I had an 11c lute

Fw: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

nderstanding the > perishable nature of the objects of our search and the ambiguity of existing > information. > > Vance Wood. > - Original Message - > From: "Stephan Olbertz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent:

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

here's an item to pique the interest of those with uncompromising views on pinky placement, etc., etc. in a book i confess to have read once called "meetings with remarkable men" by george gurdjieff - which, as a book, when divorced from the god'swill that accompanied it, turned out to be an inte

Fwd: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

gt;Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 11:34:58 +0100 >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >From: "Francesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > >Dear Elias, > > Gaultier-Portrait shows the little finger even behind the > >

RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Elias, > Gaultier-Portrait shows the little finger even behind the > bridge. 3 different positions, 3 different moments, 3 > different painters, etc. How should a painter of our days > do a piano player's hands showing "typically Russian" > technique? Would someone be able 500 years la

Antwort: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

I have to admit that I have lutes which respond much better when using that position. Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] am 22.11.2004 22:20:11 An:[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kopie: Thema: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes In einer eMail vom 22.11.2004 13:13:52 Westeurop=E4ische

Antwort: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

ncesco Tribioli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> am 22.11.2004 16:59:02 An:<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kopie: Thema: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Right, but actually the possibilities are *not* endless. They are portrayed, more or less, all in the same position. 8^) Then what a

AW: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

her tension. Elias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Francesco Tribioli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Montag, 22. November 2004 16:59 An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes Right, but actually the possibilities are *not* endless. They are portrayed, mo

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

In einer eMail vom 22.11.2004 13:13:52 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt= =20 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:=20 > The question is, why didn't=20 > "they" do the same? >=20 The problem is that even if we knew exactly how they played,=20 maybe we would be unhappy with the result. It is very difficult for u

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

bill kilpatrick wrote: > wouldn't it be safe to assume that string quality > varied from region to region and style of play - close > to or far from the bridge, for example - would have > depended on many variables and possible > interpretations available to the performer at the > time? It must b

RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

etely ignore. Francesco > -Original Message- > From: Elias Fuchs [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, November 22, 2004 4:35 PM > To: David Cameron; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: AW: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes > > > I just want to say something

Re: AW: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> I just want to say something about the often "quoted" old paintings. These > paintigs are to my opinion much too much relied upon with regard to lute > technique, especially right hand (for instance drawing conclusions from a > hand being far from the bridge or near, etc). I had read tons of > ju

AW: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

t I mean, the possibilties for a handposition that would not be representative, are endless! Elias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: David Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Montag, 22. November 2004 15:16 An: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Betreff: Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

>constants vary. > >- bill And pigs may fly, and the centre does not hold. David Cameron To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

wouldn't it be safe to assume that string quality varied from region to region and style of play - close to or far from the bridge, for example - would have depended on many variables and possible interpretations available to the performer at the time? constants vary. - bill --- Edward Mart

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> Steve has given you some numbers on harp tensions, and I can't disagree. I > can only add my own thoughts (and calculations). I'm totally unfamiliar with > orchestral pedal harps - and am not sure how one defines a Baroque harp. If you join any of the Historical Harp Societies- they would surely

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

> breaking. Here is where the anomaly occurs, a lighter guage might seem to be > the solution, but the lighter the guage the less the tensile strength, so > the "breaking pitch" remains approximately the same. (Yes purists, I know > the tensile strength is a function of the material, not the guage

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

That is the question, Stephan.We just do not know how they valued the sound. ed At 01:10 PM 11/22/2004 +0100, Stephan Olbertz wrote: >Dear all, > >it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge >produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me >that the extreme thumb-out p

RE: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear Stephan, > > it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge > produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me > that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings > result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper > register. If the aim had been t

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear all, it has been argumented that playing close to the bridge produces better (brighter) basses. However, it occurs to me that the extreme thumb-out positions we see on old paintings result in darker basses and brighten the sound of the upper register. If the aim had been to brighten the b

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Stephan, I have over fifty years of playing guitar badly (never took up classical). But I'm pretty good as a traditional folk guitarist - a finger picker, not a strummer. Close to the bridge tightens the sound, makes it a bit brighter, as long as the tension is adequate. But it will do little with

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Arto, Steve has given you some numbers on harp tensions, and I can't disagree. I can only add my own thoughts (and calculations). I'm totally unfamiliar with orchestral pedal harps - and am not sure how one defines a Baroque harp. The earlier harps, Medieval and Celtic, were normally wire strung s

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Arto wrote: So what kind of string tension is normal in baroque harps? Our harpists, please tell us! :-) Steve writes: The tension of a baroque harp is indeed much higher than a lute or theorbo. On a small *lightly* strung arpa doppia the tensions range 2.8 to 9.1 kilos per string with a tot

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Hi lutelovers, I think that some more things must be considered, in matter of historical baroque lute string tension and the hand position. The first concerne the question of the fingers closer to to the bridge like we can see on 17 c. paints. This is an old question, my suggestion point

R: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Hi all, I think the trick of lowering tension cannot work. If you lower tension you would need thinner strings or otherwise the pitch would be as low as a third or even more below the "standard" 415Hz A. Many historical baroque lutes are already too much longer to accommodat

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear all, this thread led me to re-read Segerman's article on his website at http://www.nrinstruments.demon.co.uk/LuSt.html Apparently he is postulating low tension stringing and close to the bridge playing for years. However, lowering the pitch with nylon stringing to my ears and fingers sti

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Dear lutenists, this is an interesting discussion! I have been sometimes thinking the opposite in theorbo stringing. The tension that for example A. Lawrence-King uses in his baroque harps seems to be (actually "feels to be", I've tried to pluck his instruments sometimes) quite a lot more than th

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

Thanks for your insight, David. I know that Toy is a good friend to you, and I am certain that you have observed his changes & evolution in this subject. I only know the principles of it, without being involved. Years ago, I did tune my baroque lute down to 392, and I really liked it that way

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

tuning down has always sounded "authentic" to me - especially when playing arabo-andalusian style, early christian music. in a similar thread on the charango.yahoo site someone mentioned bob brosman's comment that a lower tuning is wonderful for recording but no so good for playing live. - bill

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

go through, my machine ain't perfect but it will do. Best. Jon - Original Message - From: "Ed Durbrow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lute list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 12:06 PM Subject: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lu

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

>>I have not personally tried this approach, as : >>1. It would cost a lot of money to buy an entire new set of strings >>in low tension, and >>2. I have avoided the time it would take to develop a new technique. > > How about moving all the fretted strings over one position and the > basses 2 or

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

At 2:31 PM -0600 11/20/04, Edward Martin wrote: >These are good points, and good inquiries, Ed. The entire topic of >tension of baroque lute stringing is fascinating, and we really do >not have all the answers at this point & time. What also interests me are the implications for Renaissance lut

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

"Edward Martin" schrieb: > "usual" practice at the time. If one tries to do this on a baroque lute > strung conventionally as we string them in our modern times, the results > are a harsh, brittle sound, because playing way back on the bridge, gives > us entirely too

Re: thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

These are good points, and good inquiries, Ed. The entire topic of tension of baroque lute stringing is fascinating, and we really do not have all the answers at this point & time. Yes, the renaissance lutes were highly esteemed, and as you know, many were converted into 11 and or 13 course lu

thoughts on low tension on Baroque lutes

I'm really curious to hear the new recording by Satoh after reading your review in the Quarterly, Ed. Reading the Lundberg article in the Journal makes me wonder whether low tension on a converted Renaissance lute was perhaps a necessity and whether that set the 'tone' for lutes of the Baroque.