Re: [mailop] FW: Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 24/10/2019 05:16, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: > Also, trivial messages look like probes, and are probably going to be junked. Therein lies the problem, what if we all decided to junk everybodys email because it looks trivial, we might as well junk everybodys email and be done with it. --

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 24/10/2019 07:20, Brielle via mailop wrote: > On 10/23/2019 3:05 PM, Noel Butler via mailop wrote: Reality is, your mere > suggestion of regulation / courts to make providers accept your e-mail makes > you a liability to my services. That will never happen, precedent already > set, remember

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/23/19 13:01, Jaroslaw Rafa via mailop wrote: How to do it if you don't know what exactly these requirements are, and the receiving ISP doesn't help you with that in any way? If the receiving ISP published the criteria which it used to determine that a message is not spam, then the

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/23/19 3:45 PM, Brandon Long wrote: On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:00 AM Doug Royer via mailop mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote: On 10/22/19 3:36 PM, Daniele via mailop wrote: > It looks like Microsoft, with its long history of questionable practices, has recently developed a new

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/23/19 03:57, Daniele via mailop wrote: Not to mention that with JMRP I'm getting 100% of legitmate emails that users tagged as spam for whatever reason, so the tool is pretty useless (just my 2 cents). Actually, that shows that the tool is indeed quite useful. It tells you that the

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

If you know how to explain what a, “Legitimate” message is, *BEFORE* it arrives, to a machine … I’d very much like to hear it. Me too. I have hand-sorted more than 1.5 million messages over the past 13 years, and there are *ALWAYS* messages that get dropped into the "don't know"

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

And by the way, you said "If we throw something in the trash, there's a reason." That's fine, I sent you more material to investigate on; can you please let me know, even off-list, what is the reason? On 24-Oct-19 12:13 AM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: Please define, "Legitimate" in this

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Depends who you ask, about the FPs. If you’re doing testing, and you keep feeding it tests that look like address probes, you’re going to one set of conclusions, certainly. But just creating an account and sending it test messages is no way to evaluate the FP rate, for many, many reason.

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 24-Oct-19 12:13 AM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: Please define, "Legitimate" in this context ... in a way that we can explain it to a machine. Please. As W. Churchill said "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results": so if you can't explain it to the

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

They do? Who would that be, I obviously didn't get the memo. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Open a ticket for Hotmail ? -Original Message- From: mailop On

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Please define, "Legitimate" in this context ... in a way that we can explain it to a machine. Please. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Open a ticket for Hotmail ?

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Do you think any system is perfect?  Of course we know ahead of time that some "legitimate"[1] mail is going to be junked. Just because the system is imperfect doesn't make it a bug. It looks like some details got lost along the thread: as I said, when all the emails I receive on my outlook

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 2:34 PM Daniele via mailop wrote: > On 23-Oct-19 10:34 PM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: > > Not knowing in advance if a message is going to be junked or not is a > feature if one is playing defense, and an absolute, horrible bug if one is > on offense. > But knowing in

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 7:00 AM Doug Royer via mailop wrote: > On 10/22/19 3:36 PM, Daniele via mailop wrote: > > It looks like Microsoft, with its long history of questionable > practices, has recently developed a new strategy for tearing down its > weaker competitors. > > Not directly related,

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 23-Oct-19 10:34 PM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote: Not knowing in advance if a message is going to be junked or not is a feature if one is playing defense, and an absolute, horrible bug if one is on offense. But knowing in advance that a legitimate message is going to be junked also looks a

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/23/2019 3:05 PM, Noel Butler via mailop wrote: Reality is, your mere suggestion of regulation / courts to make providers accept your e-mail makes you a liability to my services. That will never happen, precedent already set, remember that West Australian super spammer from decades gone

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 24/10/2019 03:36, Brielle via mailop wrote: > We have gatekeepers that control access to things already. > > We've got mail filtering providers that act as gatekeepers for e-mail - > proofpoint, etc. People _pay_ them to control inbound and outbound. more fool them Trust is earned,

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Not knowing in advance if a message is going to be junked or not is a feature if one is playing defense, and an absolute, horrible bug if one is on offense. This is a rough game we're playing on the fringes, with a lot of evil people with LOTS of resources attempting to game The System, in this

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Dnia 23.10.2019 o godz. 13:47:19 Brielle via mailop pisze: > To quote you... > > >Of course, nobody can succeed individually in a lawsuit against Google. But > >maybe *all* senders who are facing this issue should unite and sue Google > >together. Even if the lawsuit itself fails, it would

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Re Postel's Law: The Harmful Consequences of the Robustness Principle ie Postel was wrong https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-protocol-maintenance-03 On Wed, Oct 23, 2019, 12:49 PM Brielle via mailop wrote: > On 10/23/2019 1:33 PM, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > > It's *you* who is constantly

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/23/2019 1:33 PM, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: It's *you* who is constantly bringing up the topic of regulations and lawsuits and not me. Seems you must be pretty obsessed with this. *clears her throat loudly* Message-ID: <20191007155046.gb21...@rafa.eu.org> To quote you... Of course, nobody

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Brielle is correct. My server, my rules, the primary tenet of spam filtering. It is a case where "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" has been eaten away due to exploitation by bad actors. If you want to get the mail delivered, you have to do it to the specification

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Dnia 23.10.2019 o godz. 11:36:45 Brielle via mailop pisze: > It's not a rant any moreso then your suggestions about regulation, > lawsuits to get your way with e-mail providers, etc. [...] > Reality is, your mere suggestion of regulation / courts to make > providers accept your e-mail makes you a

[mailop] FW: Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Oops. Again, had to force it to the list. I hate it when it does that. Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Open a ticket for Hotmail ? From: Michael Wise Sent: Wednesday,

Re: [mailop] Proofpoint Contact

Replied off list. --Jaren On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:01 PM Scott Southard via mailop < mailop@mailop.org> wrote: > Hey all, > Hoping there's a Proofpoint contact on here. A load of our IPs started > getting blocked yesterday and we were hoping to get some insight into > things. I've filled out

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

/applause Aloha, Michael. -- Michael J Wise Microsoft Corporation| Spam Analysis "Your Spam Specimen Has Been Processed." Open a ticket for Hotmail ? From: mailop On Behalf Of Laura Atkins via mailop Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2019 2:49 AM To:

[mailop] Cloudmark contact

Is there a contact for Cloudmark on here? We're filling out the form but having an issue with an IP range warm up so was hoping there was someone to chat with and make it go a bit quicker/easier. Thanks! Brett -- Brett Schenker Man of Many Things, Including 5B Consulting -

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/23/2019 10:35 AM, Jaroslaw Rafa wrote: > Because you repeat your rant on this topic again and again, It's not a rant any moreso then your suggestions about regulation, lawsuits to get your way with e-mail providers, etc. > I (as the person > who started the previous thread you are

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Dnia 23.10.2019 o godz. 09:16:26 Brielle via mailop pisze: > > owns their mail servers and can decide how > they want to process mail and who they accept mail from. > > Unless you have arrangements with them otherwise, their acceptance of mail > is a courtesy and not a right > > Contrary to

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

I think you are trying to revive that long and pointless thread about gmail putting peoples messages in the junk folder. I’ll say it again - blunt and brutal, but reality. owns their mail servers and can decide how they want to process mail and who they accept mail from. Unless you have

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/22/19 3:36 PM, Daniele via mailop wrote: It looks like Microsoft, with its long history of questionable practices, has recently developed a new strategy for tearing down its weaker competitors. Not directly related, but gmail has been putting MANY more false positives in the spam

Re: [mailop] Autofiling spam mail in Junk folder

On 23/10/19 13:36, Ken O'Driscoll via mailop wrote: If you're delivering to a local Exchange server with a message store then you can configure the filter on the server and it will move emails to the spam folder for each user. The level of knowledge to achieve that is within the realms of

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 00:14:59 +, Steven Champeon via mailop wrote: >We recently refused mail from a potential licensee because their own >Forefront server labeled it as spam. Authenticated, outbound, and so on, >and they still thought it was worthy of rejecting, so we rejected it (I >still

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

> Il 23 ottobre 2019 08:51 Sébastien Riccio via mailop ha > scritto: > > > Hi, > > We also have a lot of trouble with mails being sent to the junk folder on > Microsoft hosted accounts. > We have no problems with gmail or yahoo. > > There is no apparent reason for this, we constantly

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Dnia 23.10.2019 o godz. 08:26:58 Allen Kitchen via mailop pisze: > And this suggests that if I simply delete those emails *apparently* > unread, a machine that’s monitoring my behavior won’t notice that I jotted > an entry in another tracking spreadsheet relative to that message before I > deleted

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

This gave me an “a-ha!” moment: > On Oct 23, 2019, at 05:54, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote: > ... > 2) They’re acting in ways that tells Microsoft they don’t care about the > mail, including some or all of the following: > a) never opening the mail > b) deleting the mail > c)

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 23/10/2019 18:11, Stefano Bagnara via mailop wrote: > Often the "reason" is "Smartscreen" but sounds like no one really knows why > Smartscreen do things, or at least-- Smartscreen has never been smart, it did this exact same thing back in the late 90's or early 00's. MS couldnt figure it

Re: [mailop] Autofiling spam mail in Junk folder

On Wed, 2019-10-23 at 13:21 +0200, Daniele Duca via mailop wrote: > On 23/10/19 13:09, Ken O'Driscoll via mailop wrote: > > > > > You can set up local mail filtering rules in Outlook to place certain > > emails in a folder. Is that what you mean? > > The problem is that explaining end users to

Re: [mailop] Autofiling spam mail in Junk folder

On 23/10/19 13:09, Ken O'Driscoll via mailop wrote: You can set up local mail filtering rules in Outlook to place certain emails in a folder. Is that what you mean? The problem is that explaining end users to create a filter is much more time consuming that just say "Go to Account Settings

Re: [mailop] Autofiling spam mail in Junk folder

On Wed, 2019-10-23 at 12:08 +0200, Daniele Duca via mailop wrote: > Does anybody knows a way > to tell Outlook to do what Thunderbird does? You can set up local mail filtering rules in Outlook to place certain emails in a folder. Is that what you mean? Ken.

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 23-Oct-19 11:49 AM, Laura Atkins via mailop wrote:  It’s their system and we have to deal with it. That's why it really *looks* like unfair competition and abuse of dominant position. My professional experience is that many senders with Microsoft delivery problems have underlying issues

[mailop] Autofiling spam mail in Junk folder

Hi, this email takes inspiration from the long "Do we need Spam folders?" thread, and it specifically concerns how to take advantage of MUAs and possibly cloud providers ability to automatically move mails marked as spam to the dedicated junk folder. We deliver "cloud" antispam protection

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

From: mailop On Behalf Of Stefano Bagnara via mailop PS: I REALLY don't think Microsoft is doing filtering for "unfair competition", as I also receive Microsoft own invoices for an Office365 plan I buy in my office365 junk folder. I simply guess SmartScreen is somehow "out of control" (or too

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

One of the things I’ve deduced over the years from discussions (oh so many discussions) is that one of the major factors in SmartScreen filters is how recipients are interacting with the mail. It is a direct measure of how your users are interacting with the mail. This means a few things.

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 23.10.19 10:11, Stefano Bagnara via mailop wrote: > PS: I REALLY don't think Microsoft is doing filtering for "unfair > competition", as I also receive Microsoft own invoices for an Office365 > plan I buy in my office365 junk folder. I simply guess SmartScreen is > somehow "out of control"

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 10/23/19 10:01 AM, Chris Wedgwood via mailop wrote: We also have a lot of trouble with mails being sent to the junk folder on Microsoft hosted accounts. We have no problems with gmail or yahoo. after reading this, i created an outlook.com account (awful UI) some (not all) trivial

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 23.10.19 08:51, Sébastien Riccio via mailop wrote: >> This will have to change. Do small operators need to start a petition >> against this ? >I'm going to send thoughts and prayers to help! SCNR :) > But yes, what are you going to do? "Block all mails to big players Wednesday" > to

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

> We also have a lot of trouble with mails being sent to the junk folder on > Microsoft hosted accounts. > We have no problems with gmail or yahoo. after reading this, i created an outlook.com account (awful UI) some (not all) trivial messages end up marked as spam as others have reported

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

On 23.10.19 08:51, Sébastien Riccio via mailop wrote: > This will have to change. Do small operators need to start a petition against > this ? I'm going to send thoughts and prayers to help! SCNR :) But yes, what are you going to do? "Block all mails to big players Wednesday" to protest? I

Re: [mailop] Junk filtering as a tool for unfair competition

Hi, We also have a lot of trouble with mails being sent to the junk folder on Microsoft hosted accounts. We have no problems with gmail or yahoo. There is no apparent reason for this, we constantly monitor our gateways IP reputation, blacklists, and all is green. This is frustrating because