12:43 PM
To: Michael Wise
Cc: Suresh Ramasubramanian ; Brandon Long
; mailop ; Hugo Slabbert
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
As someone who administers an O365 tenant for ~ 500 mailboxes I just learned
that if you enable
https://na01.safelinks.protectio
soft | Spam Analysis | "Your Spam Specimen Has Been
> Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?
>
> -Original Message-
> From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Suresh
> Ramasubramanian
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2016 10:15 AM
&g
On 13/6/2016 19:14, Brandon Long via mailop wrote:
I would argue something differently: many email users (and postal
mail, for that matter), have an expectation that email is mostly but
not 100% reliable, due to spam false positives or just the lack of
delivery notification.
People can then c
13, 2016 10:15 AM
To: Brandon Long
Cc: mailop ; Hugo Slabbert
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
That's where a human postmaster team comes in handy along with sufficient
automation (self removals, automated relists, automated upgrades to covering
cidr blocks, a template dri
That's where a human postmaster team comes in handy along with sufficient
automation (self removals, automated relists, automated upgrades to covering
cidr blocks, a template driven ticketing system that lets you handle multiple
tickets with a single set of actions for reply / closure ..
Give t
I would argue something differently: many email users (and postal mail, for
that matter), have an expectation that email is mostly but not 100%
reliable, due to spam false positives or just the lack of delivery
notification.
People can then choose to not respond to a message and later claim they
n
On Mon 2016-Jun-13 09:06:59 -0700, Brandon Long wrote:
On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Hugo Slabbert
wrote:
On Fri 2016-Jun-10 12:32:20 -0600, Tim Starr wrote:
No guarantee that we operate at the same scale (we're probably in the
ballpark), but we don't drop messages except when expli
On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Hugo Slabbert
wrote:
> On Fri 2016-Jun-10 12:32:20 -0600, Tim Starr wrote:
>
>>
>> I am not saying this is a good idea, but it sounds to me like what would
>> fit the bill here would be a new folder for each user called "Bounced" in
>> which they would see all m
>At the request of the customer-base, traffic that is classified as
>sufficiently spammy (by various "Black Box" algorithms that I have no
>knowledge of the inner workings...) is deleted even after a successful
>delivery.
Is this the case for O365 hosted email as well, or just a Hotmail thing?
Spe
First of all, my kudos to Michael for discussing this so openly.
On 10 Jun 2016, at 12:05, Hugo Slabbert wrote:
I think everyone gets that the preferred behaviour is to reject at
SMTP time, that it gets difficult/impossible to do the more tests you
try and stuff into the filtering decision mak
On Fri 2016-Jun-10 12:32:20 -0600, Tim Starr wrote:
I am not saying this is a good idea, but it sounds to me like what would
fit the bill here would be a new folder for each user called "Bounced" in
which they would see all messages sent to their email address but which
were bounced by their ma
I am not saying this is a good idea, but it sounds to me like what would
fit the bill here would be a new folder for each user called "Bounced" in
which they would see all messages sent to their email address but which
were bounced by their mailbox provider. However, that would defeat the
purpose o
On Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 09:25:00AM +0100, Paul Smith wrote:
> I'd have thought that even if you do decide to just throw "extreme"
> junk away (which I think is a very bad idea, BTW), then you should
> tell the user that you've done so - either in a daily/weekly summary
> email or an online list or
> You're saying that, simply because a sender or recipient
> MIGHT be in Germany, that my US-based mail server has to send
> an NDR? And risk getting added to a "backscatter" RBL?
No, you also have the option of delivering it to the user in a method
that equates to delivery, such as delivering t
>> At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently
>> spammy, and just delivered it
>into Junk; Customers complained. Loudly.
>
>Is there a public place/forum/whatever where people complained loudly? I
>am just curious to see their arguments about this.
The Hotmail use
On 09/06/16 17:26, Steve Atkins wrote:
Actually, what I do is that when a mail goes to the junk folder, the
server gives a 5XX error message to the sender at the end of DATA phase.
So the sender, if real, knows something happened to his mail and that it
might not be read.
So if you mis-class
> On Jun 9, 2016, at 2:05 AM, Renaud Allard via mailop
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote:
>> The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives in
>> that type of spam quite frequently, and suddenly they are losing
>> messages with no hope of redempt
On 9/6/2016 17:46, Renaud Allard via mailop wrote:
Actually, many small operators also silently discard email. Whether it's
by incompetence, or voluntarily doesn't matter much. It's just less
visible than hotmail.
Undoubtedly, but they can't use the scaling-is-hard argument as a free
pass. We
On 06/09/2016 04:33 PM, G. Miliotis wrote:
> On 9/6/2016 16:13, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
>> The discussion is on-going.
>
> This is at least one good thing about this whole deal. I think your
> suggestion about deleted items (marked as such somehow) would be a good
> compromise.
>
While
On 9/6/2016 16:13, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
The discussion is on-going.
This is at least one good thing about this whole deal. I think your
suggestion about deleted items (marked as such somehow) would be a good
compromise.
FWIW, personally, I find it all an interesting social mental
> From: Renaud Allard via mailop <mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
> Sent: 6/9/2016 2:10 AM
> To: mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
> Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
>
>
>
> On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote:
‘anomalous’ behaviour and do
something about it?
Thanks
--
ian
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Michael Wise via
mailop
Sent: 09 June 2016 14:27
To: Duncan Brannen ; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Separate IPs absolutely help, at
Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 02:09:31PM +, Michael Wise via mailop
[mailop@mailop.org] a écrit:
> Unsure what you're saying. If it's the .DE extension, then by that
> logic, we, "explicitly target" a lot of users. Pretty much the whole
> world, actually.
That was the point :)
Eric (in my understa
On Thu Jun 9 15:59:33 2016, Dominique Rousseau wrote:
> Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 01:49:26PM +, Eric Henson [ehen...@pfsweb.com] a
> écrit:
> > You're saying that, simply because a sender or recipient MIGHT be in
> > Germany, that my US-based mail server has to send an NDR?
>
> I do believe t
From: Dominique Rousseau<mailto:d.rouss...@nnx.com>
Sent: 6/9/2016 7:04 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 01:49:26PM +, Eric Henson [ehen...@pfsweb.com] a
écrit:
> You're
> On 09-Jun-2016, at 7:19 PM, Eric Henson wrote:
>
> Here's a week's worth of spam scoring on my Barracuda. We quarantine email
> from 5.5 to 8.9 and drop silently at 9. You're saying that, simply because a
> sender or recipient MIGHT be in Germany, that my US-based mail server has to
> send
Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 01:49:26PM +, Eric Henson [ehen...@pfsweb.com] a
écrit:
> You're saying that, simply because a sender or recipient MIGHT be in
> Germany, that my US-based mail server has to send an NDR?
I do believe that Microsoft is explicitely targetting german users :
# dig +shor
ler
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 9:18 PM
To: Michael Wise; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Hi,
thanks for your fast and detailed reply!
i will follow your suggestion regarding tackling the system by marking a sender
as safe, so it might reconsider its d
day, June 9, 2016 4:05 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote:
> The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives
> in that type of spam quite frequently, and suddenly they are losing
> messag
: Renaud Allard via mailop<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Sent: 6/9/2016 4:16 AM
To: Eric Henson<mailto:ehen...@pfsweb.com>
Cc: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
On 06/09/2016 12:39 PM, Eric Henson wrote:
>
let
alone a day.
Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone
From: Duncan Brannen<mailto:d...@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Sent: 6/9/2016 1:16 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Hi,
Just to throw our t
ilop.org>
Sent: 6/9/2016 2:10 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote:
> The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives in
> that type of spam quite
e a day.
Aloha,
Michael.
--
Sent from my Windows Phone
From: Duncan Brannen<mailto:d...@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Sent: 6/9/2016 1:16 AM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Hi,
Just to throw our tuppence worth in.
: 6/8/2016 9:28 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org<mailto:mailop@mailop.org>
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
As a long time hotmail.com account holder, I can tell you that I would
never request a silent-discard option.
If you are able to determine via black-box algorithms that a
On 9/6/2016 05:08, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently
spammy, and just delivered it into Junk; Customers complained. Loudly. So
whether the system is correctly classifying your traffic or not, I cannot say.
But the behavior
On 06/09/2016 12:39 PM, Eric Henson wrote:
> You're giving spammers very valuable information on which of their emails are
> classified as spam and which aren't.
How so? There is no difference in rejecting a spam with 5xx and
rejecting it with 5xx but still delivering it into junk folder. The o
rg
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote:
> The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives
> in that type of spam quite frequently, and suddenly they are losing
> messages with no hope of redemption or
On 06/09/2016 10:25 AM, Paul Smith wrote:
> The problem is there may be a few other users who get false positives in
> that type of spam quite frequently, and suddenly they are losing
> messages with no hope of redemption or even knowledge that it's
> happening.
Actually, what I do is that when
On 09/06/2016 08:42, David Hofstee wrote:
I'm dazzled by users here... Isn't the junk-box supposed to hold junk? Wow.
Maybe there should be more junk-boxes for the various shades of grey :-).
I'd have thought that even if you do decide to just throw "extreme" junk
away (which I think is a very
Le Thu, Jun 09, 2016 at 02:08:39AM +, Michael Wise via mailop
[mailop@mailop.org] a écrit:
>
> At the request of the customer-base, traffic that is classified as
> sufficiently spammy (by various "Black Box" algorithms that I have no
> knowledge of the inner workings...) is deleted even after
Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?
-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Andreas Ziegler
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 6:50 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Hi,
a user of my server complained, that
-
Van: "Renaud Allard via mailop"
Aan: mailop@mailop.org
Verzonden: Donderdag 9 juni 2016 09:14:35
Onderwerp: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Hi,
On 06/09/2016 04:08 AM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
>
> At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action
Hi,
On 06/09/2016 04:08 AM, Michael Wise via mailop wrote:
>
> At one point, Hotmail tried to turn off the delete action for sufficiently
> spammy, and just delivered it into Junk; Customers complained. Loudly.
Is there a public place/forum/whatever where people complained loudly? I
am just cu
As a long time hotmail.com account holder, I can tell you that I would
never request a silent-discard option.
If you are able to determine via black-box algorithms that a message is
sufficiently spammy, why not refuse after post-dot?
I'm sure Hotmail deals with spam volumes that are orders of
ay, June 8, 2016 7:18 PM
To: Michael Wise ; mailop@mailop.org
Subject: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Hi,
thanks for your fast and detailed reply!
i will follow your suggestion regarding tackling the system by marking a sender
as safe, so it might reconsider its decisions.
as a sid
supression and is
illegal (§206 StGB).
Best Regards
Andreas
Original-Nachricht
Betreff: Re: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Von: Michael Wise
An: Andreas Ziegler , mailop@mailop.org
Datum: 9.6.2016, 04:08:39
>
> At the request of the customer-base, traffic t
r Spam Specimen Has Been
Processed." | Got the Junk Mail Reporting Tool ?
-Original Message-
From: mailop [mailto:mailop-boun...@mailop.org] On Behalf Of Andreas Ziegler
Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2016 6:50 PM
To: mailop@mailop.org
Subject: [mailop] Microsoft/Hotmail discards mails
Hi,
a
Hi,
a user of my server complained, that some of his mails don't reach mail
accounts from hotmail/live/outlook etc. that complaint is nothing new,
the problem exists for months now.
the users mails are dkim signed, the domain has DKIM and SPF TXT DNS
records, since yesterday there is also a DMARC
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