[MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Seems like it was most likely icing on the wings, maybe raising the stall speed? How long does it take a plane to hit the ground if it stalls 1,500 feet in the air? Why not at least a shouted "MAYDAY" from the pilot? Surely there was time for that? Allan -- 1983 300D _

[MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

In thinking of the passengers, Gerry Niewood (soprano sax) and a guitarist who were to perform with Chuck Mangione and the Buffalo Philharmonic were also on the flight. G. M. Brown Brevard, NC -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:

[MBZ] OT - thoughts on NY plane crash

Article in today's paper talks about stick shaker system putting the nose down to "get more air under the wings to hold the plane up." Nothing about trying to increase airspeed. Another "very knowledgeable" reporter. ;<)) Wilton ___ http://www.okiebenz.c

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Allan Streib wrote: Surely there was time for that? I imagine he was a little preoccupied at the time. John ___ http://www.okiebenz.com For new and used parts go to www.okiebenz.com To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/ To Unsubscribe or

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

I heard freezing rain and immediately thought of icing, esp coming down from higher altitude and the wings are cold. I would guess those planes have deicers, but they can only handle so much. Sounds like it just bored straight into the house, which suggests a stall and pitch over, no gliding.

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:34:50 -0500, "Rich Thomas" said: > I heard freezing rain and immediately thought of icing, esp coming down > from higher altitude and the wings are cold. I would guess those planes > have deicers, but they can only handle so much. Sounds like it just > bored straight

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Watching streaming coverage from a Buffalo tv station. They mentioned something interesting -- that the autopilots are so sophisticated these days it can continue to compensate for problems that a pilot flying hands-on would notice (aircraft constantly going out of trim, etc.) until it is too late

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:57:49 -0600, "Wonko the Sane" said: > Watching streaming coverage from a Buffalo tv station. They mentioned > something interesting -- that the autopilots are so sophisticated these days > it can continue to compensate for problems that a pilot flying hands-on > would notic

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Well, it depends a lot on the weather conditions, but yes, ice can build up very quickly if the conditions are right, and at low altitude, (relatively) low speeds, in a landing configuration, etc. you will have not have much warning, much time to do much of anything, and the plane could lose l

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

They hadn't dropped the gear yet. They crashed right at the outer marker, supposed to be 1500 AGL. On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 11:05 AM, Rich Thomas < richthomas79td...@constructivity.net> wrote: > Well, it depends a lot on the weather conditions, but yes, ice can build up > very quickly if the condi

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Allan Streib wrote: So it's not implausible that they are flying along, nothing at all seems to be out of the ordinary, and then they just fall right out of the sky? Unless the wings are iced up enough to change their shape, the main factor in a stall is the angle of attack of the wing. Seem

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Maybe not, if you're busy trying to FLY THE AIRPLANE. Wilton - Original Message - From: "Allan Streib" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 10:28 AM Subject: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > Seems like it was most like

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Wonko the Sane wrote: They hadn't dropped the gear yet. They crashed right at the outer marker, supposed to be 1500 AGL. So they didn't fall from 1500' AGL, they impacted at the point where they should have been at 1500' AGL? Like maybe they lost it at 2000' and their glide steepened so that

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Doesn't take very long for brick to fall from 1500 feet. Wilton - Original Message - From: "Allan Streib" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 11:46 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > On Fri, 13 Feb 2009

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Yeah, I call it "the-sudden-brick syndrome." Wilton - Original Message - From: "Wonko the Sane" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 11:57 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > Watching streaming coverag

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

2009/2/13 Allan Streib About this lon... You get the idea. I would imagine shouting Mayday at that point is pretty much just telling the controller what he's going to know in the next 10-15 seconds anyway. Do what you can to keep it in the air, and let the controller know what's up lat

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

I just though it odd for the plane to crash with no indication of trouble voiced by the pilot. Especially on approach where I'd think they are talking back and forth with the tower quite often. But I speak from ignorance. Almost like it was just hit by a missile or something (I'm NOT suggestin

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Captain was from Iowa. Looks young -- or maybe I am just getting older. http://www.kcci.com/news/18708666/detail.html -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Well ... graduated high school only 9 years after I did, so not that young, I guess. On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 2:21 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote: > Captain was from Iowa. Looks young -- or maybe I am just getting older. > > http://www.kcci.com/news/18708666/detail.html > > > -- next part -

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

No, that's not how a wing stalls. Combination of wing shape, angle of attack, airspeed, and occasionally some other factors. --R [BSAAE, MSAAE (major aerodynamics)] Mitch Haley wrote: Allan Streib wrote: So it's not implausible that they are flying along, nothing at all seems to be out of

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Pilots were reporting icing as they descended. Eyewitness reports plane impacted at a steep downward pitch angle and banked (rolled), which is consistent with coming down after a (wing) stall (hence hitting the house square on). Pilots reported flaps down at some point, pogoing up and down af

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

While he may not have been talking back and forth with the tower, I'm sure everything said in the cockpit between the two pilots was recorded, and will be part of the investigation. As tragic as the loss of life always is in such things, I think it must be very rewarding and interesting work, piec

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Attended USCG OCS with a former Army CWO3 helo pilot -- maintenance pilot and instructor pilot in the Chinook. He once told me that he had long ago decided that if anything unrecoverable was about to happen inflight, he was going to drop his flight suit and quickly ... er ... straddle the cyclic pr

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

I suspect that the FAA will never release the tape with the expected profanity to the public. Only a few seconds from pitchover to impact, I suspect as flying speed will be 120 mph or so -- they were just putting the flaps down. This is exactly what happened to the ATR series -- in icing

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

probably a hundred hour wonder or whatever they call em these days. Wonko the Sane wrote: Captain was from Iowa. Looks young -- or maybe I am just getting older. http://www.kcci.com/news/18708666/detail.html -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL:

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

The regional aircraft are the "beginner lanes" these days. Most of them look like kids to me, too, but then I'm past the half century mark. Peter On Feb 13, 2009, at 6:44 PM, Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: probably a hundred hour wonder or whatever they call em these days. Wonko the Sane wrote:

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

5 and '97 Crown Vics -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 7:29 AM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? Seems like it was most likely

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Some issues come due to airframe age, some come no charge as part of the initial design. On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Greg Fiorentino wrote: > Hi all from a list noob: > > Info from wife, admin in maintenance dept. at another airline that flies > the > Q400: > > The aircraft was nearly new, n

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

"Kaleb C. Striplin" writes: > probably a hundred hour wonder or whatever they call em these days. Fox News was reporting that she had 2,000 hours though she was only 24. The other pilot (who I'm assuming was the captain) they said was 47. Allan -- 1983 300D ___

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

heck, Im way younger than you old farts, and the last several times I have flown they look like kids to me also. In fact they are kids, they are probably right at the min age for a ATP ticket. Some of their flying skills show it as well. I have NEVER been scared on a plane except the last ti

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

how could she have 2k hours and only be 24. Well I guess she could have but I dont see how she could have that many commercial hours. Im foggy but I was thinking you had to be what, 23 to get a commercial ATP license? Its been a long time since I was in flight school. Allan Streib wrote: "

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

"Greg Fiorentino" writes: > Hi all from a list noob: > > Info from wife, admin in maintenance dept. at another airline that flies the > Q400: > > The aircraft was nearly new, not old enough to have had maintenance > issues. I really don't trust these regional/commuter outfits. Lots of short hop

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

The Captain of this ill-fated flight graduated high school in 1979. I will let you do the math. I think he had something like 3200 hours. Ironically, his co-pilot (age 24) had about 2200 hours. These figures are estimates pulled out of what I saw (all day long) on the news. On Fri, Feb 13, 2009

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

m 256-656-1924 -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 6:59 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? "Greg Fiorentino" writes: &

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Lady in OCS & flight training w/ me was about 24 or so. She was already type-rated in lots of airframes, both rotary wing and turbo prop and jet. Instructor pilot and ATP. She'd do a double hop in flight school (do two syllabus flights at once) then take her Navy officer "instructor" back up to wor

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Yeah, YOU probably, but, of course, I'm not. ;< Wilton - Original Message - From: "Wonko the Sane" To: "Mercedes Discussion List" Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > Captain was from Iow

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

st" Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > Captain was from Iowa. Looks young -- or maybe I am just getting older. > > http://www.kcci.com/news/18708666/detail.html > -- next part -- > An HTML atta

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

OCS classmate of mine just made Admiral. And he was straight out of college, not ex-enlisted. nt: Friday, February 13, 2009 3:21 PM > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > > > > Captain was from Iowa. Looks young -- or maybe I am just getting older. > > > &g

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

6-656-1924 -Original Message- From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes- boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 6:59 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? "Greg Fiorentino" writes: Hi

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

I mentioned wing shape and angle of attack. Reynolds number (airspeed) is a minor factor, but if you're pulling 1G at stall speed, your RN is going to be about the same as at any other instance of level flight stall, unless your wing shape if off. How sensitive is a modern turboprop to dirty w

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

That was a standard "landing" on EAL 727s into Washington National, after a very low sharp fast turn over the kink in the river just before "landing" to the south. I believe all the pilots were ex-Navy carrier types. --R Kaleb C. Striplin wrote: heck, Im way younger than you old farts, and t

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

There is more truth to that than you realize -- plus lots of USAF fighter pilots (i.e., Sully). I can't back this up with data right now, but I'd wager than at least 50% of the current airline captains (including the puddle jumpers) got their flight training in the military. Maybe higher. Navy has

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

On EAL it was quite true. The only thing missing were the arresting wires at National. Those old 727s could take a LOT of abuse. --R Wonko the Sane wrote: There is more truth to that than you realize -- plus lots of USAF fighter pilots (i.e., Sully). I can't back this up with data right now

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

I took lots of abuse during flight training from my instructors (all Navy and Marine fighter pilots) for landing like a F** airline pilot. I politely (and sarcastically) tried to explain that it was much easier to smoothly and quietly place a T-34 onto the deck than it was to slam it down like

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Wonko the Sane wrote: There is more truth to that than you realize -- plus lots of USAF fighter pilots (i.e., Sully). Funny thing, my niece used to date a guy who was studying to be a jet pilot. I asked him if the "Officer and a Gentleman" route was cheaper, and he told me that the airlines we

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

2009 8:29 AM Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > Wonko the Sane wrote: > > There is more truth to that than you realize -- plus lots of USAF fighter > > pilots (i.e., Sully). > > Funny thing, my niece used to date a guy who was studying to be a jet pilot. >

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Allan Streib Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 4:59 PM To: Mercedes Discussion List Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? "Greg Fiorentino" writes: > Hi all from a list noob: > >

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

ge - > From: "Mitch Haley" > To: "Mercedes Discussion List" > Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2009 8:29 AM > Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash? > > > > Wonko the Sane wrote: > > > There is more truth to that than you realize -- p

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

If you can't land with a dead engine and no instruments, I don't want to ride with you. If you touch down more than 200 feet beyond the threshold, same thing. No slamming required, just good piloting. On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote: > I took lots of abuse during flight tr

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

The difference was in how hard the aircraft impacted the runway. I landed right where they wanted me to, but gently. No need to pretend that I was about to snag a wire. On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 1:32 PM, OK Don wrote: > If you can't land with a dead engine and no instruments, I don't want to > rid

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Ah - that's not good with normal landing gear and hard runways! My home base had two 1700' grass runways. Tires last longer on grass. On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 1:58 PM, Wonko the Sane wrote: > The difference was in how hard the aircraft impacted the runway. I landed > right where they wanted me to

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

"According to investigators, it appeared the plane's flaps went down at about 2,300 feet, and that's when everything started to go wrong, Chealander said. "Although witnesses reported seeing the plane nosedive, Chealander said investigators had found the plane's cockpit, tail, engine and wings

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

As a non-aviator, but curious, I found this video fascinating, even if this is not the condition that caused of Friday's crash... gives me a glimpse of what sorts of things ice can do. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946 Allan -- 1983 300D ___

Re: [MBZ] OT: thoughts on NY plane crash?

Great video, thanks for posting Allan. Ed 300E 2009/2/14 Allan Streib > As a non-aviator, but curious, I found this video fascinating, even if > this is not the condition that caused of Friday's crash... gives me a > glimpse of what sorts of things ice can do. > > http://video.google.com/videop