[mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

The original NGS documentation which was written by me [1] says that works with different remixes should be merged together. The Work page [2] however says that they should be kep separate. All people I've discussed this with agree that they should be merged. Can I change the Work page to remove th

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Since the remix credits are at the recording level. Remixes are not separate Works... and should be linked to the original work. 2011/5/18 Lukáš Lalinský > The original NGS documentation which was written by me [1] says that > works with different remixes should be merged together. The Work page

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 05/17/2011 10:27 PM, Lukáš Lalinský wrote: > The original NGS documentation which was written by me [1] says that > works with different remixes should be merged together. The Work page > [2] however says that they should be kep separate. All people I've > discussed this with agree that they s

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

I guess I have less than 20 remix tracks in all my CDs, so my point of view is essentially theoretical, but I believe you are confusing what happens to be technically implemented in MB and what should be done in order to have a satisfying database structure. The fact remix credits are currently at

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:55 AM, caller#6 wrote: > Do you disagree with the concept of "Derivative Works" [1]? How many of > the items listed under "Distinctiveness" should be removed? My problem is that the situation is not consistent. We are merging cover recordings into the same work, but remi

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

caller#6 wrote: > > Do you disagree with the concept of "Derivative Works" [1]? How many of > the items listed under "Distinctiveness" should be removed? > i think a derivate work has to earn it's status of an own work and (as Frederic said) this would have to be decided for each derivate work

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

lorenz pressler wrote: > this would deny most pop-remixes and the likes an own work entry i guess. > so i would deny creating independent works for remixes, mashups, > instrumental work with lyrics added later, translation of a work into a > different language in general while making it possible

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

> Translations have been migrated as different works, they have different > lyricists and we store lyricists at work level. Are covers without lyrics its own work then? Like for instance "Yesterday" with Oscar Peterson: http://musicbrainz.org/recording/b0da13b6-12db-4391-9a2c-1dd26fb4cf3a And is

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 18 May 2011 19:12, lorenz pressler wrote: > > caller#6 wrote: >> >> Do you disagree with the concept of "Derivative Works" [1]? How many of >> the items listed under "Distinctiveness" should be removed? >> > > i think a derivate work has to earn it's status of an own work and (as > Frederic sai

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

It is always questionable. Other example in Classical: Satie composed "Gymnopédie No. 1" for piano solo ==> one work. Debussy orchestrated this work ==> another work (Orch. AR is at work level!) Jeroen van Veen "arranged" the orchestrated version to get a four-hands piano version. Arr. AR is at re

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/5/19 caramel > It is always questionable. Other example in Classical: > > Satie composed "Gymnopédie No. 1" for piano solo ==> one work. > Debussy orchestrated this work ==> another work (Orch. AR is at work > level!) > Jeroen van Veen "arranged" the orchestrated version to get a four-hands

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 05/18/2011 01:00 AM, Lukáš Lalinský wrote: > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:55 AM, caller#6 > wrote: >> Do you disagree with the concept of "Derivative Works" [1]? How many of >> the items listed under "Distinctiveness" should be removed? > My problem is that the situation is not consistent. We a

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 19 May 2011 17:21, caller#6 wrote: > > > On 05/18/2011 01:00 AM, Lukáš Lalinský wrote: >> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:55 AM, caller#6 >>  wrote: >>> Do you disagree with the concept of "Derivative Works" [1]? How many of >>> the items listed under "Distinctiveness" should be removed? >> My probl

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 05/19/2011 08:57 AM, caramel wrote: > Jeroen van Veen "arranged" the orchestrated version to get a > four-hands piano version. > Arr. AR is at recording level ==> no work It was planned to add "Arranger" at work level too after NGS migration, exactly for this situation. See http://wiki.music

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Aurélien Mino wrote: > It was planned to add "Arranger" at work level too after NGS migration, > exactly for this situation. > See > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Next_Generation_Schema/Track_Relationships_Conversion#Artist-Track > > It just has not been added yet. I thought the upgrades script w

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Per Starbäck wrote: > Are covers without lyrics its own work then? Like for instance > "Yesterday" with Oscar Peterson: > http://musicbrainz.org/recording/b0da13b6-12db-4391-9a2c-1dd26fb4cf3a Hmm... Not sure. I think I would probably still use the original work, the work still has lyrics even if

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

and vice versa you can say the work of a cover where lyrics where added still has no lyrics. perfect solution imho would be an "additional lyrics" field on recording lvl. however i guess i could live with an own work-entry and work-work relationships in these cases although i personally won't credi

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/5/20 Nikki > Per Starbäck wrote: > > Are covers without lyrics its own work then? Like for instance > > "Yesterday" with Oscar Peterson: > > http://musicbrainz.org/recording/b0da13b6-12db-4391-9a2c-1dd26fb4cf3a > > Hmm... Not sure. I think I would probably still use the original work, > the

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/5/18 Lukáš Lalinský : > The original NGS documentation which was written by me [1] says that > works with different remixes should be merged together. The Work page > [2] however says that they should be kep separate. All people I've > discussed this with agree that they should be merged. Can

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 05/24/2011 08:02 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > 2011/5/18 Lukáš Lalinský: >> The original NGS documentation which was written by me [1] says that >> works with different remixes should be merged together. The Work page >> [2] however says that they should be kep separate. All people I've >

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

+1 for merging remix and cover works into the original works -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Works-and-remixes-covers-tp3531609p3549034.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

I have a question that hasn't been addressed so far: sometimes a cover will introduce a specific innovation (could be an extra verse, dropping a verse, specific flourishes, restructuring, whatever) into a song, and later covers will reproduce that innovation. So those later covers aren't c

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/5/25 Stephen > I have a question that hasn't been addressed so far: sometimes a cover > will introduce a specific innovation (could be an extra verse, > dropping a verse, specific flourishes, restructuring, whatever) into a > song, and later covers will reproduce that innovation. So those la

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/5/25 Frederic Da Vitoria > 2011/5/25 Stephen > >> I have a question that hasn't been addressed so far: sometimes a cover >> will introduce a specific innovation (could be an extra verse, >> dropping a verse, specific flourishes, restructuring, whatever) into a >> song, and later covers will

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: > 2011/5/25 Stephen >> >> I have a question that hasn't been addressed so far: sometimes a cover >> will introduce a specific innovation (could be an extra verse, >> dropping a verse, specific flourishes, restructuring, whatever) into a

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/5/25 caramel > > 2011/5/25 Frederic Da Vitoria > >> 2011/5/25 Stephen >> >>> I have a question that hasn't been addressed so far: sometimes a cover >>> will introduce a specific innovation (could be an extra verse, >>> dropping a verse, specific flourishes, restructuring, whatever) into a

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Looking at the work-work and work-recording relationships possible, all these seem to be covered already... unless I'm missing something. For example, wouldn't a cover from two (or more) distinct covers just be a medley? - Si On 25/05/2011 19:34, dj empirical wrote: > On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 1

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 25 May 2011 17:12, Stephen wrote: > I have a question that hasn't been addressed so far: sometimes a cover > will introduce a specific innovation (could be an extra verse, > dropping a verse, specific flourishes, restructuring, whatever) into a > song, and later covers will reproduce that innov

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

+1 -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.com/Works-and-remixes-covers-tp3531609p3551452.html Sent from the Musicbrainz - Style mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ MusicBrainz-style mailing list MusicBrainz-style@list

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On May 25, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > I think what these need is for a cover recording to be able to link > back to either a work or a recording. > At the moment, it seems I can't do a recording<->recording cover link > but funnily enough > I can do a recording<->recording A

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 26 May 2011 07:00, Stephen wrote: > > On May 25, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > >> I think what these need is for a cover recording to be able to link >> back to either a work or a recording. >> At the moment, it seems I can't do a recording<->recording cover link >> but funni

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Now for some conflicting opinion: the Spanish work database includes "Asómate" – http://musicbrainz.org/work/148859be-4c6e-30f1-9558-3f48a42c8101 – and "Asómate (remix)" – http://musicbrainz.org/work/8eb73a24-e600-46a5-af42-0314e65775d2 – as different works, with different ISWCs :) On Thu, May 26,

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Hello, On 26/05/11 10:49, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > On 26 May 2011 07:00, Stephen wrote: >> >> On May 25, 2011, at 8:42 PM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: >> >>> I think what these need is for a cover recording to be able to link >>> back to either a work or a recording. >>> At the moment, it

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Sorry for jumping into the discussion so late in the game—real life has been demanding much of my time lately. I would suggest the test could boil-down to whether a new artist work AR is required to distinguish one remix from another (if a particular remix contains new content, and has additional

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 6 June 2011 18:22, Paul C. Bryan wrote: > Sorry for jumping into the discussion so late in the game—real life has been > demanding much of my time lately. > > I would suggest the test could boil-down to whether a new artist work AR is > required to distinguish one remix from another (if a parti

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > On 6 June 2011 18:22, Paul C. Bryan wrote: >> Sorry for jumping into the discussion so late in the game—real life has been >> demanding much of my time lately. >> >> I would suggest the test could boil-down to whether a new artist wor

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/6/6 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren : > On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes > wrote: >> On 6 June 2011 18:22, Paul C. Bryan wrote: >>> Sorry for jumping into the discussion so late in the game—real life has been >>> demanding much of my time lately. >>> >>> I would suggest the te

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 07/06/2011 03:03, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > 2011/6/6 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren: >> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes >> wrote: >>> On 6 June 2011 18:22, Paul C. Bryan wrote: Sorry for jumping into the discussion so late in the game—real life has been d

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 5:03 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > 2011/6/6 Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren : >> On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 1:50 AM, Dr Andrew John Hughes >> wrote: >>> On 6 June 2011 18:22, Paul C. Bryan wrote: Sorry for jumping into the discussion so late in the game—real life has

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Mon, 2011-06-06 at 23:50 +0100, Dr Andrew John Hughes wrote: > On 6 June 2011 18:22, Paul C. Bryan wrote: > > Sorry for jumping into the discussion so late in the game—real life has been > > demanding much of my time lately. > > > > I would suggest the test could boil-down to whether a new arti

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

the remix is a work extrapolated from a recording? cheers P -Original Message- From: musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org [mailto:musicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of Calvin Walton Sent: 07 June 2011 12:28 To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re:

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 07:28 -0400, Calvin Walton wrote: > One thing that concerns me a bit with a work→work remix ar: Remixes are > typically based on a specific recording of a work. How do we represent > this in Musicbrainz? Should we continue to use the recording→recording > AR alongside the wo

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 16:16 +0100, Pete Marsh wrote: > This makes my head hurt, but here's a couple of questions just to make > sure I'm kind of understanding it Take 2 ARs and call us in the morning. ;-) > 1) how do we ascertain that a remix has enough new content to make it > a new work

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of Paul C. Bryan Sent: 08 June 2011 23:46 To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion Subject: Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 16:16 +0100, Pete Marsh wrote: This makes my head hurt, but here's a couple of questions just to make sur

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

sicbrainz-style-boun...@lists.musicbrainz.org] On Behalf Of > Paul C. Bryan > Sent: 08 June 2011 23:46 > To: MusicBrainz Style Discussion > Subject: Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers > > > On Tue, 2011-06-07 at 16:16 +0100, Pete Marsh wrote: > > >

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/5/20 Nikki > Aurélien Mino wrote: > > It was planned to add "Arranger" at work level too after NGS migration, > > exactly for this situation. > > See > > > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/Next_Generation_Schema/Track_Relationships_Conversion#Artist-Track > > > > It just has not been added yet. >

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On 08/05/2011 02:19 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: > It's been more than 2 months, but a discussion with Jesus2099 made me > realize this: a new arranger should not be considered as a sufficient reason > to create a new Work. AFAIK the rules for considering 2 recordings are still > being discussed,

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/8/5 Alex Mauer > On 08/05/2011 02:19 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: > > It's been more than 2 months, but a discussion with Jesus2099 made me > > realize this: a new arranger should not be considered as a sufficient > reason > > to create a new Work. AFAIK the rules for considering 2 recordi

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Fri, 2011-08-05 at 21:19 +0200, Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: > 2011/5/20 Nikki > Aurélien Mino wrote: > > It was planned to add "Arranger" at work level too after NGS > migration, > > exactly for this situation. > > See > > > http://wiki.musicbrainz.org/N

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

We should clearly keep classical out of this debate, since "arrangement" in classical also stands for everything we'd call "cover performance" in other music styles. In Classical the ongoing discussion whether a specific arrangement or orchestration qualifies as a new derivative work tends to ask f

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/8/5 SwissChris > We should clearly keep classical out of this debate, since "arrangement" in > classical also stands for everything we'd call "cover performance" in other > music styles. In Classical the ongoing discussion whether a specific > arrangement or orchestration qualifies as a new

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria wrote: > 2011/8/5 SwissChris > >> We should clearly keep classical out of this debate, since "arrangement" >> in classical also stands for everything we'd call "cover performance" in >> other music styles. In Classical the ongoing discussion wh

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 2:10 PM, SwissChris wrote: > We should clearly keep classical out of this debate, since "arrangement" in > classical also stands for everything we'd call "cover performance" in other > music styles. In Classical the ongoing discussion whether a specific > arrangement or orc

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/8/6, SwissChris : > On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Frederic Da Vitoria > wrote: > >> 2011/8/5 SwissChris >> >>> We should clearly keep classical out of this debate, since "arrangement" >>> in classical also stands for everything we'd call "cover performance" in >>> other music styles. In Cl

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

+1 for keeping remixes, covers and other versions the same 1 work. - jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7 mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts -- View this message in context: http://musicbrainz.1054305.n4.nabble.co

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Lukáš Lalinský wrote: > > The original NGS documentation which was written by me [1] says that > works with different remixes should be merged together. The Work page > [2] however says that they should be kep separate. All people I've > discussed this with agree that they should be merged. Can I

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, MeinDummy wrote: > This discussion seems to have faded out now. > There are many unresolved specific issues regarding covers, translations, > instrumentals, ... Most of them are beyond the remix work topic and should > probably be further discussed in separate threa

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Lukáš Lalinský wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, MeinDummy wrote: >> This discussion seems to have faded out now. >> There are many unresolved specific issues regarding covers, translations, >> instrumentals, ... Most of them are beyond the remix work topic and >> should >>

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:24 AM, MeinDummy wrote: > > Lukáš Lalinský wrote: > > > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, MeinDummy wrote: > >> This discussion seems to have faded out now. > >> There are many unresolved specific issues regarding covers, > translations, > >> instrumentals,

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Nicolás Tamargo de Eguren wrote: > > While I agree that remixes in the classic sense are usually (always?) the > same work, I won't accept a wording that says simply "all remixes should > be > merged into the original work". A lot of things called "remix" involve a > completely new music or new l

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

Lukáš Lalinský wrote: > Can I change the Work page to remove the mention of remixes? +1 - jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7 mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jesus2099 mb userscripts : http://userscripts.org/users/31010/scripts -- View this message in context: http://musicbrai

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 6:30 PM, jesus2099 wrote: > > Lukáš Lalinský wrote: >> Can I change the Work page to remove the mention of remixes? > > +1 Nobody seemed to oppose the change, so I've done it. > - > jesus2099 × Ti = Tristan + patate12 ÷ saucisson7 > mb : http://musicbrainz.org/user/jes

Re: [mb-style] Works and remixes/covers

2011/11/9 Lukáš Lalinský : > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, MeinDummy wrote: >> This discussion seems to have faded out now. >> There are many unresolved specific issues regarding covers, translations, >> instrumentals, ... Most of them are beyond the remix work topic and should >> probably be fu